Fury...rising... READ THIS

[amberlaine]

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/33077.htm

[loopy]

:mad: Ditto that fury, Amberlaine.


Source say investigators are eyeing a number of groups, including radical members of a pagan cult.

The Wiccan group fashions itself as modern-day witches seeking religious freedom, but they are not known to be violent.

*rolls eyes*

*pins on her "I'm a radical member of a pagan cult, but I'm nonviolent, so don't persecute," button*

[Laiste]

Once again the media is trying to use Pagans as scapegoats. It makes me feel angry and sad at the same time. I personally believe that this is the work of the same terrorist group that was behind the 9-11 attacks. Not all of them are dead, there are many more where they came from.

[Myst]

*sigh* I know let's blame it on the Pagans again! :rolleyes:

[Danustouch]

Ok...now I'm ticked. Okay..I have been VERY supportive of our President, and our leaders throughout this whole thing. I've even stopped bush-bashing, and tried to get others to do so. Even DESPITE the fact that Bush made it clear he didn't think "Wicca" was a valid religion. But this....this makes me wonder whether or not I've been naieve. When Bush was elected, I made two predictions. That we'd enter a war, and that Paganism would see an increase in predjudice from the fundamentalist Christian Rite....that we'd face oppression. (no..not the burning times thing, but a challenge to our religious liberties, none the less.). This just furthers my fears.

Yep..Pin it on the Pagans. Of course, it couldn't POSSIBLY be one of the Militia groups/hategroups/ or any other anti government group out there, could it? No..it has to be pagans.

Many of whom are promoting PEACE...and saying that violence in any form, even in the guise of a "Just War" is wrong. Many of us who started vigils, prayers for the victims of the World Trade Center bombings. Many of us who turned our Samhain Shrines, into Shrines for the Victims of Sept 11th, as well. Many of us who believe that ALL life is sacred.

Where the HELL does this evidence come from? They've not disclosed their sources! This is JUST wonderful. Great. Now Bush has even more of a "reason" to put his anti-wiccan, anti-pagan propaganda into motion. And Falwell..so glib, so fat, and content in his hypocrisy and hatred, looks like he was "Correct" ...at least in the minds of the narrowminded fundamentalist Christian Rite.

I am steaming...I am furious. We need to email this paper, and email our congressmen...and email the whitehouse, and tell them what we think of this BS. And demand that we as members of Wicca and Paganism, be shown the "EVIDENCE" linking followers of our belief, to these horrendous acts.

*DING DING DING* round ONE!

[Danustouch]

Ok...now..Yahoo just had an article posted by Reuters today, saying that Anthraxx was found in letters in Pakistan, too. Hand DELIVERED envelopes, containing a white powdery substance. They bear striking resemblence to the letters sent HERE, but were hand delivered. So...wouldn't that add to the evidence that these letters were NOT disgruntled Americans??? I think that right now, people are caught in Anthrax hysteria. And they are casting suspicious glances in ALL directions. It is unfair. People like the NY post should be much more careful what they print, and what they right. Contributing to mass hysteria does no one any good. When the 9/11 attacks happened, there was a huge increase of hate acts perpetrated against people of middleeastern/arabic descent. If people start pointing their fingers at OTHER groups, the same thing can happen. This MUST stop. Media has to stop just casting theories out willy nilly, without providing the evidence, and without any conclusive proof. This is rediculous! Just another point...it said that Pagans were only ONE of the groups they were looking at as suspects in homegrown terrorism. So..who were the other ones? Why didn't they point a finger in THEIR direction, too. Seems to me, that based on the Oklahoma, and Ruby Ridge fiasco's...there are a lot of groups much more likely to do something so hateful and destructive as this, than us Pagans. It doesn't fit in with the majority of Wiccan/Pagan Ideaologies! But it DOES fit in with many of the militia groups ideaologies! This is absolutely sickening. Now..what do we do about it?

[Ball-Bhreac Ròn]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Myst]

btw amberlaine mentioned this over on MM as well and members there mentioned that this newspaper, according to anyone in New York, is only one step above the Enquirer. So *shrugs* maybe it was Elvis, ya know?

[Old Witch]

:( :( :( Did this just come out of left field or are more articles like this out there?

[mato]

Did it not occur to any one that wiccans/pagans are the only one who dare challange the Bush? Does it not follow that his supporters would attack wiccans and pagans above all others especially in these times, a perfect time to start prapaganda programs, a time when all are too messed up to think "Gee maybe they are just guessing at this, they dont seem to have all their facts together..." This is a time when they can post what ever they want and not be challanged by their readers but actuallly have unsubstantiated shtuff be taken as fact.
The war against terrorism is just a means to an end, this war that they seem determined to push, is personal and religious.
I am supprised they didnt try doing this earlier than when they started. Hopefully America's reasoning skills will return soon...

[Swanspirit]

someone is grasping at straws........ and will do or say anything to get in print.........or a reaction .........
IT IS DISTURBING however........and I have that "someone actually listened to Jerry Falwell feeling " from this.........
BUT .....I am not running out and doing any victim volunteering just yet...... this paper might not be worthy of a response ....
Also someone might have an axe to grind where pagans are concerned ......some extreme right wing christian group......
I would be concerned for the individual group they are targeting....... that is a HUGE issue as far as I am concerned beceause some OTHER nut might beleive this garbage and and act on it in some way.........I would actually notify the local police for protection for those individuals so targeted ....... and possibly any local Indy groups ..... I know someone from INDY from WAY BACK who actually dreses as a large green ( or was it purple) Dragon..... and you know how people respond to anyone differnt than themselves ..........
So this article is dangerous on a local level ...... and perhaps something can be done about that ......
Myself....... I will hopefully any opportunity I can to educate people as to the reality of most pagans as a peace and earth loving group ............. maybe i can get someone to write an article locally ........ hmmmmmmm
Love and light
Swannie

[Demeter]

The article never pegged Indianapolis as the source of the anthrax. All signs still point to New Jersey. As a Wiccan living and practicing in New Jersey, I feel distinctly threatened by this article. The Post is a rag, and all my friends are telling me to "consider the source" and dismiss it, but I can't. It's a rag, but Post readers are predisposed to believe it. And Post readers are likely to act on what they read.

I'm tempted to write them a letter, but I don't know if it would do any good. I try to be reasonable, but they don't want reasonable. They want to have some hothead send them a letter loaded with exclamation points threatening to put a curse on them. Then they can print that, make us all look like idiots, and say "See, we were right, they are all flaming violent radicals! And THEY threatened US! Call the Hazmat team!"

I wish I could turn them all into toads. Then again, I can't be sure that they aren't already....

[Adrenaline Junkie]

I see no reason why trash like this should be published on the net or anywhere. it disguists me.

When will ignorant individuals realilize that we're not the old sterotypes they think we are to be. Hopefully someone will take the blind folds from their eyes.

[NeoPhoenix]

This just really ticks me off, THIS type of slander is precisely WHY I left the church in the first place... :flamer: *sigh* These people, who ever they are really need to find something better to do then to harass everyone they don't like. The thing that really irks me is that our taxes are going to pay for these blundering idiots. How many Innocents have to suffer in the US's vendetta war, thats what it is starting to feel like. Not justice, just a way to get back at the people that the don't like. I wonder how much longer it will be till they resurrect concentration camps for Americans of Middle Eastern background... *sigh* don't mind me, this stuff just makes me think of all the injustice in the world, both past and present, and really ticks me off... By the Gods... :mad:

[MammaStar]

Originally posted by Myst
btw amberlaine mentioned this over on MM as well and members there mentioned that this newspaper, according to anyone in New York, is only one step above the Enquirer. So *shrugs* maybe it was Elvis, ya know?

Yes, it is true. The Post is NYC version of the Enquier. I've always thought it was trash, & this article PROVES IT, at least to me.

I hope our carpet bagger Senator Clinton, takes note of this. I think I'm gonna drop her a line. She lives only a few blocks from my cousin anyway. :eek:

First one, I'm gonna write is to Hillary, then my Rep, Ben Gilman. I'll proceed from there. I suggest you all do the same with your elected officials.

[Aengus McTeague]

This article did a huge disservice by not identifying sources, and clarifying that even if true, it no way represents mainstream paganism.

Unfortunately, we can't just say "this isn't paganism" and leave it at that. There is a dark side to the pagan movement that all should be aware of.

Here is one article from the Southern Poverty Law Center (http://www.splcenter.org/cgi-bin/goframe.pl?refname=/intelligenceproject/ip-4n3.html) A highly respected and influential organization. I wish they had included a bit of explanation about mainstream Paganism, but at least they clearly identify this group as fringe, racist paganism.

Warning: The following link contains highly offensive, racist material(And is deeply confused and poorly written to boot)
If you have a strong stomach, here is a collection of writings from The White Order of Thule (http://members.odinsrage.com/thulean/wot/index.html), the group mentioned in the SPLC article.

I don't wish to offend anyone, but I think it's important to know how, where, and why our beliefs are being perverted. Only if we know and face the truth, can we defend ourselves intelligently. Just to say that "Pagans are peaceful", simply isn't enough.

ps. Please note that I am not implying that racism and violence is part of Norse/Germanic Heathenism, it is not. While not my path, it is a legitimate and honorable one. Here is a link to a site that appears to offer information on legitimate Asatru and Heathenism (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/2388/)

BB,
Aengus

[Leela]

*sulks*
grrrr. these people must not have much to do if they sink so low as to blame us. Either that, or they're spiteful, irritating likkle ********. Maybe both.
*sulks some more*

[Aengus McTeague]

pps. I just found a wonderful related site calledHeathens Against Hate (http://www.angelfire.com/on/Wodensharrow/hah.html)
BB,
Aengus

[Danustouch]

"Did it not occur to any one that wiccans/pagans are the only one who dare challange the Bush? Does it not follow that his supporters would attack wiccans and pagans above all others especially in these times, a perfect time to start prapaganda"

no...because wiccans and pagans ARE NOT the only ones to oppose Bush. There are people of ALL faiths who are opposed to the war. Not just pagans. Just as not ALL pagans oppose the war.

[Danustouch]

Aengus said "Unfortunately, we can't just say "this isn't paganism" and leave it at that. There is a dark side to the pagan movement that all should be aware of"

Agreed. But as you said..they should have made the clear distinction that because Wicca and Paganisms incorporate so many differen't belief systems and traditions, it cannot be assumed that Paganism as a whole, is suspect. And they should have named the specific tradition that these "Suspects" were part of.

[Demeter]

Originally posted by Danustouch


Aengus said "Unfortunately, we can't just say "this isn't paganism" and leave it at that. There is a dark side to the pagan movement that all should be aware of"

Agreed. But as you said..they should have made the clear distinction that because Wicca and Paganisms incorporate so many differen't belief systems and traditions, it cannot be assumed that Paganism as a whole, is suspect. And they should have named the specific tradition that these "Suspects" were part of.

Unfortunately, the way they presented it, Wicca is the only tradition mentioned by name, and therefore Wicca will be linked to the anthrax attacks in the minds of the readers. Most folk don't know there's more than one pagan faith in the first place, and will assume pagan = Wiccan interchangeably. If they do find any kind of pagan connection, even through a racist/hate group, I'm afraid we'll all be tarred with the same brush.

[Myst]

"Most folk don't know there's more than one pagan faith in the first place, and will assume pagan = Wiccan interchangeably. If they do find any kind of pagan connection, even through a racist/hate group, I'm afraid we'll all be tarred with the same brush."

Here we go again, blaming the media because people don't understand the concept of critical reading. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it the media's fault? No. Why do we advocate dumbing things down for people who refuse to educate themselves?

[Swanspirit]

I dont know......most people ...... so I cannot say .....BUT...... I believe that the majority of people believe that these attacks are connected to the terrorists........ and not any small segment of the population ...... I dont believe it is a group of Americans inside this country ......I think it is entirely possible that the suicide terrorists were involved .... and didnt mind dying because they knew they were infected but I am willing to wait unitl more information is available ..... and I believe most Americans are as well........... and now with the Antrhax in PAkistan .........I think it is very apparent that the terrorists are who is behind ths ......
and just as an addendum...... I think this is their death knell....... because people really despise this type of war .... and they will have made themselves abhorrent even to people who might have supported them........
Love and Light
Swannie

[Xander67]

on that note..........

goes and gets a beer

terrorists have nothing to do with this (in my opinion)

this has been going on for centuries

[Danustouch]

I'm lost again...does anyone have a map handy?

[Twig]

LadyStarlight, I bow to your actions. :D Only through enlightenment and Truth can we hope to counteract such rediculous(sp) accusations.

We read about things like these in the Weekly World News as we wait at the check-out.But you know, I'll be darned if I can remember reading about ONE Pagan miricle!! Hehehe.

I urge you All to write to the people who print things such as this and in a business manner let them know of your objections because the media is driven by popular opinion.

Peace,
Twig
:elf:


Originally posted by LdyStarlite


Yes, it is true. The Post is NYC version of the Enquier. I've always thought it was trash, & this article PROVES IT, at least to me.

I hope our carpet bagger Senator Clinton, takes note of this. I think I'm gonna drop her a line. She lives only a few blocks from my cousin anyway. :eek:

First one, I'm gonna write is to Hillary, then my Rep, Ben Gilman. I'll proceed from there. I suggest you all do the same with your elected officials.

[evilslinkycat]

Oh Please :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I think someone needs to get a life......

[gunner]

"Source say investigators are eyeing a number of groups, including radical members of a pagan cult.
The Wiccan group fashions itself as modern-day witches seeking religious freedom, but they are not known to be violent. Investigators are probing whether a disturbed member of the group may have taken a bizarre turn and is targeting the media and the government in particular."

as others have noted this is an un-named source and therefore worthless, too this is the only reference to wicca or pagans in general that i've seen and i've been following the news fairly closely though i don't read the n.y. post or the checkout counter tabloids. i get most of my news from online and t.v. and i see a broad range of sources from around the world. i'd say a post reporter spoke to someone with a wild hair across their derriere and didn't bother to follow up with checking facts. unfortunately a too common fault in journalism today. give the editor a rocket about responsible reporting and then ignore them, los federales have more on their plates than unfounded notions of a half baked cub reporter and i'd be extremely surprised to see any official notice taken of this nonsense.

[Laiste]

Originally posted by Twig
LadyStarlight, I bow to your actions. :D Only through enlightenment and Truth can we hope to counteract such rediculous(sp) accusations.

We read about things like these in the Weekly World News as we wait at the check-out.But you know, I'll be darned if I can remember reading about ONE Pagan miricle!! Hehehe.

I urge you All to write to the people who print things such as this and in a business manner let them know of your objections because the media is driven by popular opinion.

Peace,
Twig
:elf:



I have already written the editor and the writer of the article. Yes Twig, it is important to have your voice heard when it comes to these issues...they directly affect us and the sooner you jump and speak up the better off you are! Now this article may not be from legitimate sources but the newspaper is read by great numbers of people and unfortunatly a lot of people believe everything they read!!:rolleyes:

Oh and on a side note, the subject of this article was mentioned in a Dutch newspaper! I will post the link if I can find it again. The word is quickly spreading folks! We should really speak up now before this thing gets any bigger!

[Myst]

Originally posted by gunner
as others have noted this is an un-named source and therefore worthless, too this is the only reference to wicca or pagans in general that i've seen and i've been following the news fairly closely though i don't read the n.y. post or the checkout counter tabloids. i get most of my news from online and t.v. and i see a broad range of sources from around the world. i'd say a post reporter spoke to someone with a wild hair across their derriere and didn't bother to follow up with checking facts. unfortunately a too common fault in journalism today. give the editor a rocket about responsible reporting and then ignore them, los federales have more on their plates than unfounded notions of a half baked cub reporter and i'd be extremely surprised to see any official notice taken of this nonsense.

Yup. We can't suppose that right to freedom of speech should be squelched because some people don't have the critical reading skills or the sense to not base their opinions on one article in one paper (known to be, uhm, 'eccentric').