Are you Christian? If you are, then post up why here!

[Windigo]

Hey, It'd be nice to know!_happydanc

[Toby Stimpson]

With no disrespect intended...why would you like to know why ppl are Christian. Why are you Pagan? The name of the thread sounds soemwhat attackish...Namaste

Tobias

[Necrosapien]

Regardless of the intent of the post (although I doubt it was intended to attack) I will answer.

I am a Christian. Not a "normal" one anymore, but I still hold true to the name. I've rejected a lot of teachings of the church since I've started questioning my faith. I've come to my own beliefs and I'm still learning.

At any rate, I was introduced to this site by a wonderful Soviet Space Pirate by the dreaded name of Zilith. I started out in the arcade and then actually got interested in what was being talked about in these forums. I've learned a lot and I'm very grateful to him, for it. Thanks buddy! :yayhawaii

[GhostHacker]

<--- Jesus Freak lurking

[semi]

But WHY are you Christian? There have been several threads about why people are pagan. This is the only one I've seen asking why people are Christian. I don't think the thread was started as a means of persecution, but simply to answer the question: why are you Christian? It's an interesting topic, a good question, and I'd like to hear answers that elaborate a little more. I am not Christian so I can't answer the question, but I'd be interested in hearing why other people practice this religion.

[Toby Stimpson]

Oops, my appologies...I retract my statement :). Namaste

Tobias

[LacyRoze]

I have been thinking all day about how to reply to this and it has made me do a lot of thinking and soul searching....

As a child I went to church because it was expected of me. It's just what our family did, go to church Sunday morning, family dinner Sunday afternoon, evening services and then supper out. In my late teens things started to change. I started paying more attention to the sermons and started really reading and studying my bible. In my early 20's my life was turned upside down. Things happened that left me wondering who I was and where I was going. It was then I turned to God. I dedicated my life to him and asked for his help thru it all. He sent me peace and clarity that I had never known before. No, he didn't solve all my problems but he did show me the way thru them. I know in my heart that if it hadn't been for him, who knows where I would be today. I believe in God, his mercy, his understanding and his power. I believe in most of the bible although I also believe there are mis-translations and errors contained in it. I believe the bible isn't complete, that books were left out that didn't fit the "mainstream" of Christianity as it was in those days. I believe in the ten commandments and live by them as best I can. I believe Jesus was and is the son of God and died for my sins. I, however, do not believe that Christianity, as it is practiced today by most, is the same Christianity that Jesus taught. I believe in a God who is loving and merciful, tolerant and forgiving. I don't believe he would have us turn our backs on those who disagree with us. Alot of the things I disagree with are more to do with the "church" than with God or Christianity. I don't believe it's neccessary for me to be in church every time the doors are open to be a good Christian. I read and study my bible daily, most of the time, I also pray and honor and worship God in my way, my time.
I hope this makes sense, it does to me, but that isn't always the case with others...

[EponaCapaill]

Why am I Christian? Quite honestly, because my parents are and that is what they taught me. Why have I stayed? Because I am sufficiently drawn to the christian God and believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not sufficiently drawn to other Gods or Goddesses. That being said, I do believe that all Gods and Goddesses are aspects of one God that is neither Christian or Celtic or any other pantheon.

[GhostHacker]

But WHY are you Christian? There have been several threads about why people are pagan. This is the only one I've seen asking why people are Christian. I don't think the thread was started as a means of persecution, but simply to answer the question: why are you Christian? It's an interesting topic, a good question, and I'd like to hear answers that elaborate a little more. I am not Christian so I can't answer the question, but I'd be interested in hearing why other people practice this religion.

Because, the Lord Christ ROCKS MY WORLD :smile:

Glory to Him.

[starfire]

yep I am a Christian, I believe in God, and I have many friends that are Pagan. I was introduced to this sight a few years back, and only recently have been really active on it. It is educational, also shows no matter what you believe, others can and are accepting of you. Others care about you as a person regardless of what you believe, and I also am having a lot of fun on MW

Also since I got disabled I have been semi depressed, going up and down. I have found some fun and silly threads here, and it brightens my day. I also know that this is a safe sight, and don't know that of others and I am to afraid to try others for fear of getting some computer virus.

[BeachWitch]

Because, the Lord Christ ROCKS MY WORLD :smile:

Glory to Him.

*sigh*

The art of self examination appears to be lost on this poor soul.

For those of you just tuning in, this post is reflective of what we in the Pagan Community refer to as a Fluffy. Those pagans/wiccans who are filled with "Light & Love" and never ever ever examine the dark side of their soul.

So let's throw the gaunlet down and ask the burning question:

Is it a sin to waste the intelligence God (YVHV Jehovah aka Christian God) gave you and not examine why you enjoy a relationship with this Deity?

Why THIS deity and not another?

Why THIS path and not another?

God gave you a navel, examine it!!

PS - Leave the Bible out of it, we are talking about examining the relationship with Deity (at least I am)

I look forward to reading the responses.... this has the potential of being an awesome thread!

[Protagonist]

Beachwitch, for some people, it's personal. When asked, they'll give a very generic response. Why? Maybe they can't articulate what they feel, or maybe they feel it's too personal to get into on a web forum. It doesn't make them fluffy.

[arctic splash]

Hey, Christ ROCKS MY WORLD sounds like a good enough answer to me. :D

You're right, Protagonist. It doesn't make them fluffy. Thanks for posting that... BeachWitch, your post sounded harsh to me. And I disagree.

Not to speak FOR you, GhostHacker, but it sounds like you mean Christ makes you feel alive, grateful, happy. Whether you've examined your beliefs is not the question. Maybe you have, but discovered in the end that Christ rocks your world. Good enough. :) Or maybe you haven't, but you're still lucky enough to have found what works for you. Some people don't need to constantly self-examine, they can feel things instinctively, and are led by feelings they can't articulate. Everyone's different, and life is good that way!

I'm pagan because it makes me feel most alive in a universe that's nothing short of a miracle. So what? Are you going to tell me I'm not self-examining?

[BeachWitch]

Beachwitch, for some people, it's personal. When asked, they'll give a very generic response. Why? Maybe they can't articulate what they feel, or maybe they feel it's too personal to get into on a web forum. It doesn't make them fluffy.
Absolutely legitimate. I agree with you 100%

But if that's the way you feel, why post at all?

It does make one fluffy to post a one line response to a thread that asks a legitimate, earnest and sincere question.

If you think it's personal, don't clutter the thread with inane BS that does nothing to stimulate the conversation.

You think I'm harsh for challenging a person's thought process. Interesting perspective.

[Necrosapien]

Ah, I missed the "WHY" part. lol

Okay, I'll try to explain this.

I've been "Christian" my whole life. I just lived on whatever my mommy and church told me. In the past couple years, I've finally broken away from that (most people do this at 14, for some reason I had to pick friggin' 19...better late than never...) I've seriously questioned my beliefs over and over and over again until the point that I was suicidal. It was a screwed up limit to push myself to over something like that. Yet, until that point Christianity was my life. When I lost my faith, it was like someone had ripped my entire life away. It was liking waking up and realizing that everything you had lived was a lie. Well, it wasn't a lie to me. I had felt God before. I felt him during worship and outside of church too. If I could feel something there must be some truth to it, right? At the very least that there's a God who loves me and wants to have a relationship with me. So I started from scratch. I started with, there's a God. Okay, then what? I kept building on that, examining the teachings of the Church and doing a lot of reading on the internet, asking a lot of questions, and not being afraid of the answers. So far, my journey has led me back to where I was, but not really. I never imagined what Christianity really was until now. It's a way of life, not a bunch of rules. There's more to it than what the church is teaching. They're forgetting one thing (99% of the time): love. But I've opened up my mind (not something a "good" Christian does 'cause if you open up your mind, the devil can get you!) and learned a lot about people, religion, and spirituality. I'm sure that most Christians wouldn't even call me one anymore. But why am I a Christian? Partly because it's what I know, partly because it feels right in my heart, but mostly it's because, that's where Godde must want me. I'm starting to think that no matter what, diety draws unto itself. Mankind has always been pulled towards diety. I am pulled through Christianity, the Kaballah (did I spell the darn thing right? Oh well, there's so many spellings anyways that I'll just add another), and some other things mixed in. I'm looking into the Golden Dawn a little, I'm interested in religions of all kinds, sacred geometry = teh wootness, and all sorts of things. But mostly, if there is a label, I am Christian. I believe that Jesus was special as the only begotten son of Godde and that he died for EVERYONE'S redemption, not just a select few like the church would have us believe. Overall, my journey through my brand of Christianity has taken me farther than I ever would have gone if I had stayed my fundie-Christian self. No longer though. As Godde is, so am I. I AM THAT I AM. YHVH. I can't thank everyone who's helped me get there. Godde, JLH, and everyone on MW: I thank you. Godde bless you all for bringing me to the place I am now.

(My apologies for the lengthy path splurge :P I think I've gone waaaay too far above and beyond on this one!) :jamsessio

[arctic splash]

You think I'm harsh for challenging a person's thought process. Interesting perspective.

I think your attitude is negative. You seem to have certain expectations for how people should respond to posts. You seem to berate people who choose to respond contrary to your expectations. People are free to express themselves as they please. We are free to express ourselves with as much or little detail, with as much or little self examining, and with as much or little silliness as we please.

It's not the challenging that I don't like. Challenging a person's thought processes is great. We can ask people probing questions, try to challenge them, encourage them to think things through, but that's *all* we can do. After that they're perfectly free to respond however they wish, and there's nothing wrong with them if they're not inspired by our challenges.

I don't think you're really challenging; I think you're berating.

[Isil Darkmoon]

You think I'm harsh for challenging a person's thought process. Interesting perspective.
Admin mode:

Your MANNER of saying these things is fairly harsh, and bordering right on the disrespectful. Please tone it back a bit, and stop the name-calling.

[BeachWitch]

(My apologies for the lengthy path splurge :P I think I've gone waaaay too far above and beyond on this one!) :jamsessio

Don't EVER apologize for your thoughts or your perspective on your path. Your post is EXACTLY what this thread was asking for and you rose to the challenge beautifully. Bravo!

I'm saddened to hear your loss of faith was so devastating. However, the growth you experienced on the way back will be your strength in years to come.

I have the utmost respect for those who have "bled" for their beliefs.

A very good friend of mine is a Pastor in the Four Square. We've spoken at length on how too many Christians, and for that matter Pagans too, put Deity in a box and leave it there to wallow in dogma. As faith is examined and the boundaries of the box fall away, the relationship, we as humans, have with Deity is quite amazing.

[ShamanFeather]

*sigh*

The art of self examination appears to be lost on this poor soul.

For those of you just tuning in, this post is reflective of what we in the Pagan Community refer to as a Fluffy. Those pagans/wiccans who are filled with "Light & Love" and never ever ever examine the dark side of their soul.

So let's throw the gaunlet down and ask the burning question:

Is it a sin to waste the intelligence God (YVHV Jehovah aka Christian God) gave you and not examine why you enjoy a relationship with this Deity?

Why THIS deity and not another?

Why THIS path and not another?

God gave you a navel, examine it!!

PS - Leave the Bible out of it, we are talking about examining the relationship with Deity (at least I am)

I look forward to reading the responses.... this has the potential of being an awesome thread!

This was harsh and uncalled for. Just because you don't think the Bible is about God doesnt mean you cannot allow other ppl to say it is part of their reason. It is a sacred text lets leave out whether you think its altered or not. It is not your responsibility to say someone has a good enough reason or not. What if someone said you can't believe what you do b/c your reasons aren't good enough? This is just as bad as the persecution Christians sometimes do to pagans. I often hear pagans saying that Christians are so dark with their brimstone and death, if that is the case yay for the particular person you singled out for feeling a wonderful connection with his God. Why this diety and not another, because God rocks his world, and although thats a simple statement, it can mean a lot, because a lot of ppl I know, pagan or not, their gods don't rock their world. Let ppl's responses come to what they will be and respect that.

Yay for pagans, yay for christians, yay for fluffies and hardcores.

[BeachWitch]

It was a flippant post and was disrespectful to Windigo's inquiry. Harsh? Fine. But the question was asked in earnest and the response was childish and dismissive.

Must be an age thing. I am obviously far too old and grumpy to tolerate flippant replies to serious inquiries.

[Protagonist]

It was a flippant post and was disrespectful to Windigo's inquiry.
Yours? Yeah. We know.

On the subject of why I am a Christian...
I feel that, by viewing God polytheistically, through the lens of an attribute (ie, love, wisdom, etc,) I'm limiting God. God is all those things, and more, and I don't feel God needs a special name or face for every concept encompassed. Furthermore, Christ. I believe in Christ, and I believe that He was God, and that He died to save all of humanity.

[Happy Shrew]

It does make one fluffy to post a one line response to a thread that asks a legitimate, earnest and sincere question.

If you think it's personal, don't clutter the thread with inane BS that does nothing to stimulate the conversation.

That's silly.

_tomatoe_ (Please don't hurt me.)

I have a friend who's an evangelical Christian, and although the Cliff Notes version of her explanation would be the same as the one you're sore about, I see nothing wrong with it at all.

The way she usually puts it is that the feeling of living in the presence of someone so profound as the Lord is so powerful and so awesome that she'd be a fool to walk away from it. And I say fine. She doesn't NEED to spend time wondering if any other faith would suit her needs better. She's happy, she has opportunity for growht and she lives a good life. What more could one want?

Just because someone isn't constantly turning their religious beliefs on their head doesn't mean they're not growing intellectually. There's a world beyond religion, and we all live in it.

Besides, if we were all to consider every single religious path there was before making up our minds, none of us would settle on anything.

[Ninjakitten]

I decided to finally start examining Christianity when I cried out angrily towards the unknown (to me) "God" over an issue I don't feel necessary to elaborate on again (stupid relationship issues). The answer by this Diety was to shield me from the outside world in a spiritual sphere of shimmering fog and approach me with or as a being of pure light (possibly an angel, at least that's an assumption on my part because it was so bright), and, in short and in part, told me that I needed to seek the truth in the one place I was previously unwilling to look for my answers to many things. At that point, I had an understanding that I was to look at Christianity as my next step in my spiritual path because that was the one religion I had condemned. This happened after my Christian boyfriend held me in his arms less than a month prior to this after I had decided I didn't want to commit suicide quite yet, and called him over to comfort me instead, and he prayed "God help her". I felt the hardness around my heart for who he was praying to loosen up just enough so that the Spirit of Godde flooded in and shattered the remaining hardness, leaving my heart open to the things Godde had to show me next.

I am still Christian because I can't let go of what happened those two nights. They were so real that I can't forget them.



A very good friend of mine is a Pastor in the Four Square. We've spoken at length on how too many Christians, and for that matter Pagans too, put Deity in a box and leave it there to wallow in dogma. As faith is examined and the boundaries of the box fall away, the relationship, we as humans, have with Deity is quite amazing.

This is exactly why I am letting my path evolve away from what the churches want to tell me about Christ (usually from the perspective of Paul, who never met Christ and had Pharasee tendencies) and decided to explore the things the Christ did and said to the best of my ability, and prayerfully explore the many spiritual things that are out there to show me the face of the Divine, as well as how to better myself, my mind, and my relationship with the rest of Creation so I can better explore Godde and the Christ. I won't let fear deny me the truth, but I will let love help me towards it.

[Ninjakitten]

Besides, if we were all to consider every single religious path there was before making up our minds, none of us would settle on anything.


He he. Try being a Gemini like I am and see if you can settle on any one thing... :flowers:

[BlackMagicalCat]

More better would be,why do you love the Lord Jesus Christ.

I love him,because he has been faithfull to walk with me for a very long time.When I was wandering in the world,involved in so many things,I felt his gentle voice telling me,that he loved me.I have seen his guiding hand guiding me,and he healed my broken heart.His word is in my heart,and I feel his presence with me ,and I talk to him everyday.

Maybe I have become a bit paganized,thats what other christians have said,and I do have new questions that I didnt have before,but my love for the Lord will be my guide till death,I trust him,he has proven himself faithfull to me through the years.I know I have grieved him at times,and I dont have all the answers,i have hurt others,and have sinned against others,and against God,but I feel a gentle voice inside me saying,dont give up,look to me,trust in me.And so I do.

all my prayers have not been answered,and I have a lot of broken dreams,but ,all things work together for good,to them that love God,to those who are the called,according to his purpose,bible.

I am a christian,because I love Christ,and want to be like him.

[Nimtrix]

I'm still a Christian and always will be. That is the point of being faithfull. But I don't agree with modern doctrine or dogma. It all seems politically motivated after Consintine. When I was 15 (not 14) I stopped going to church. I didn't beleive what they were saying. So I decided to go it on my own. And looked into Hermetics and the Caballa, but this got me nowhere and confused me even more. It wasn't until I hit my thirties that I realized Mythology held the key to understanding history and religion. And Christianity has one of the most profound Hero myths of the Mother and Child, not to mention The Great Mystery.

[Xander67]

I am A messianic Jew Witch,

I believe that Jesus Taught Qaballa to his Deciples.
I also believe that at one time, Christianity was a lot different than it is today...
The Druids of Arthurian Lore were Christian... they were a very magical folk too.

I also believe that somewhere along the lines .. when the Anti Semites stripped Christianity of it's Jewish Roots, they also added in a few added features ... like stripping the Pagan aspects..

I really and trully Believe that the "Christianity of today" is missing a few things...
READ your bible and decide for yourself... that is if you can find one that is not tampered with...

I also believe that JEsus never heard that name... His name is Y'shua... which means Salvation...
(Read Rabbi Chernoff's book)

this is what I believe... and I am firm in it...
I do not believe I will be damned to hell for learning about the Tarot...
nor do I believe astrology is evil....

point me to verses in scripture that say im wrong, and then I will show you the mistranslations.

[Xander67]

I also believe that No one has the GOD given right to condem another for what they know true in thier heart...

I respect you for your beliefs... and I wouldnt expect you to believe what I believe, it is not possible because to me, Knowledge comes from experience.

[Xander67]

Yours? Yeah. We know.

On the subject of why I am a Christian...
I feel that, by viewing God polytheistically, through the lens of an attribute (ie, love, wisdom, etc,) I'm limiting God. God is all those things, and more, and I don't feel God needs a special name or face for every concept encompassed. Furthermore, Christ. I believe in Christ, and I believe that He was God, and that He died to save all of humanity.

I think if you look at the Trinity from a quantum physics angle, it sorta explains alot... although you may go MADD trying to figure it out...

Y'shua=God...
"I and my father are one"
all things contain the cosmic essence at the very root core of the atom,
the holy spirit is the POWER, that creative force that raised him from the dead...
We all have access to this same power at the subatomic level, if we didnt, we would not be able to exist because "All things are possible through christ" and Christ is god...

the trinity is also a devine triangle...
H= holy spirit
G= God
Y= Yshua

in geometric terms, it is an equilateral triangle...
each leg equal in length to the other two and each angle of the same degreee

so we have 3 points of the triangle, connecting the 3 legs,
G, H, and Y
inverse the triangle and place it on top of the first and you have the star of david...

which is inside of a 360 degree circle
which is the seal of solomon...

ok, now that my head is HURTING from all the math, I need a pepsi

[LacyRoze]

Why THIS deity and not another?

Why THIS path and not another?

God gave you a navel, examine it!!

PS - Leave the Bible out of it, we are talking about examining the relationship with Deity (at least I am)

I look forward to reading the responses.... this has the potential of being an awesome thread!

Ok, Let's try this again and answer in the way you seem to be looking for..


Why this diety? Why not? God was the first diety I ever had contact with. Since the day I dedicated my life to him, he has never failed me nor has he left my side. He's been my source of strength and comfort, guidance and inspiration. He has never let me down so why would I turn to another? I've witnessed his mercy and grace firsthand. I've seen his power and strength time and again. Why would I leave him for another when he supplies all my spiritual needs? I feel his hand upon my life daily. He's lifted me out of my darkest places and stayed by my side when those around me felt there was no hope for me. He's given me the strength and courage to do and face things that I would never have been able to do on my own. That is why God.

Why this path? Because it works for me. Sure, I've looked at other paths and religions but they just didn't call to me. Something always brought me back. It's a part of me, of who I am. I may not follow it the way others think I should but oh well. I follow where my heart leads. My heart tells me this a path of love, of compassion. It fills my spiritual needs....

Now as for leaving the bible out of it? Sorry, I can't do that as the bible is what led me to God in the first place. It contains his word and , to me, is therefore a part of him. It is a small part of him that is tangible, that I can hold in my hands. It's another place I can turn to in times of need. It contains his words of comfort, of inspiration. It contains his promises to me. It contains his past and future. It is a part of him therefore a part of me and my path.

[Shadowsong]

Hey all this is interesting--please debate more, I wanna read more! lol.
But here's a question I'd like to pose because it's one I'm struggling with: I feel I'm being pulled in two directions, Christianity and Paganism. I feel God is calling to me but the Morrigan has been my steady rock for the past six months, She is my light, my 'mother', if you will. So I got to thinking... since I believe if there were beings that created this world, this universe, it can't just be a male, there's gotta be a female. Or maybe it's gender neutral. IDK. BUT, if God is calling to me, do you think He would tell me to turn away from my Goddess? A child needs both a Father and Mother--is this not the same?

[GhostHacker]

Why THIS deity and not another?

I admit I did go into paganism for a bit... of the Druid sort, before becoming a christian again. I checked out the gods of the different pagan paths (Morrigan, Manannan Mac Lir, Loki, Tyr, Buddha, Quetzalcoatl, Krishna, Izanagi etc) but Christ kept showing me the Way through Him.

Prayers got answered and things happened that couldn't have happened any other way than "divine intervention ;)".... Things went against what was logically supposed to happen, when I prayed to Christ for them.


Why THIS path and not another?

I did try the others, performing the rituals on changing seasons/meditating/reading the Bhagavad-Gita or Tao Te Ching or Dhammapada/ making offerings to the gods etc.... I was one of the heart-and-soul pagans who would battle a christian for an hour if the encounter ever happened.

Why the christian path and not another? I tried the others, and the pagan paths weren't for me :fpeace:


PS - Leave the Bible out of it, we are talking about examining the relationship with Deity (at least I am)

As you wish ;)

[GhostHacker]

Hey all this is interesting--please debate more, I wanna read more! lol.
But here's a question I'd like to pose because it's one I'm struggling with: I feel I'm being pulled in two directions, Christianity and Paganism. I feel God is calling to me but the Morrigan has been my steady rock for the past six months, She is my light, my 'mother', if you will. So I got to thinking... since I believe if there were beings that created this world, this universe, it can't just be a male, there's gotta be a female. Or maybe it's gender neutral. IDK. BUT, if God is calling to me, do you think He would tell me to turn away from my Goddess? A child needs both a Father and Mother--is this not the same?

Really depends on what you believe about God's views of Morrigan. If you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then God's first commandment speaks against it:


And God spake all these words, saying,

Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


or

". . . the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?" 1 Corinthians 10:20-22

[BeachWitch]

Let me clarify on my comment "leave the Bible out of it". Of course the Bible is the bedrock of Christianity, I am not discounting it, I am not dismissing it.

What I am trying to get to here is the relationship with God and/or Christ. Not Paul's interpretation of the relationship. Not Abraham's version of the relationship. Not Moses perspective of the relationship. YOUR perspective, YOUR interpretation, YOUR version.

As for examining other paths.... I think a lot of you misunterstood my question. You seem to think the examination is in comparison to something else. Not at all. Not even close.

A lot of pagans came to Wicca, Witchcraft and Paganism as a knee jerk reaction to Christianity. Some way of life within the Christian culture turned them away or forced them to turn away. Again, my Pastor friend and I have discussed this at length, and he has acknowledged that many Christians treat each other with terrible disrespect. He and his co-Pastor have to deal with this sort of disrespect nearly every week. But as he has pointed out, that is the humanity of the faith, it is not God, it is not Christ.

Remaining true to Christianity or Paganism must stand on it's own, without the need for comparison to something else. So when I ask WHY this path, I am not asking for a comparison, I am asking for an examination of why the relationship works, and what keeps you in the marriage (for lack of a better analogy).

Look, alot of you here are young. A lot of young people cruise this board looking for answers. Posting your reasons for remaining in a relationship with a Christian deity may be the one post some lost soul reads at 3am and finds their way back to God, or Lugh, or Hermes, or Morrigan, or Hathor.

Yea, I am saying that your post could be the one that brings a person back to their faith.

Shadowsong, look up these threads:
http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=100837&highlight=Christian+Witch (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=100837&highlight=Christian+Witch)
http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=84447&highlight=Christian+Witch (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=84447&highlight=Christian+Witch)
http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=56943&highlight=Christian+Witch (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=56943&highlight=Christian+Witch)
Search the forums on "Christian Witch", "Christian Wicca", "ChristoPagan" for ideas and inspriation on blending the 2 faiths. However, I caution you on using magic if you are going to do this. YVHV is a jealous God, He says so in the Bible many times, so be careful. You may want to foresake other male deity and find a female deity to pair him with. The traditional Judaic pairings have been Wisdom and Sophia, so research them and see what you like.

[Xander67]

Shadowsong, You dont neccicarily have to choose between "Pagan" and "christian"

look to your heart, and pray, seek the truth and you will find it...
as I said before,
I believe that Before King James came along, Christianity was a very Jewish, Mystical Path!

what has led me to this belief was years of seeking... one path leading me along, and then suddenly another, only to find it was the same...

as for the Druids, well if you are talking about the Celt's, they are a very Christian society..
please bear in mind when I say Christian, I am not talking about "Fundi landover baptist type"
I am referring to Christianity as it was (and still is in some societies) before the crusades.

The Rosicrucians are an example of Christian Mystics. as are the Order of Bards and Druids..
Some of the most Powerful Magic work is rooted in Christianity..

I think people make the mistake of associating the Holy Bible with One Religion, no, the Bible is not just a text for Christians of today, Qablallists have discovered a more deeper application of it by the use of Gematria and Sacred Geometry...

Raymond Buckland's candle magic book makes use of certain passages of the bible ...

In Freemasonry, No Lodge can be at work without the open Bible upon the altar...

alot of Golden Dawn, and Hermetic Texts are rooted in the bible as well...

[semi]

I thought this would be a good topic and it's a good thread so far. Great idea, Windigo.

I have a question for the Christians here. It's the same question I have asked pagans so please don't think it's directed only at Christians. It's directed at Christians only on this thread.

For those of you who have had mystical experiences of some kind, such as being guided by voices or visions, did you attribute these experiences to some sort of Christian entity because the entity actually was of Christianity or because you are a Christian? For example, I know a guy in Voodoo who attributes EVERYTHING to the loa, every psuedo-mystical experience he has, when clearly this is not the case. But he wants it to be so he believes that it is. Another friend of mine sees the Fae in everything, every lost item was taken by the faeries, etc. Maybe she's right or maybe she just wants it to be that way, I don't know. So for those who have had mystical experiences of a Christian nature, how do you know it actually is of a Christian nature and not something else that you filter through your beliefs or desires or expectations? If you have had a mystical exeprience like voices or visions, how do you know it was God or Jesus or angels and not someone or something else?

By the way, I run myself through the same questioning process. I like to be sure about who and what I'm communicating with. I do nothing in this regard based on faith, belief, or desire. I prefer certainty when I can get it.

[lednevir]

christians? Jesus said that the way to tell if someone is a christian is they heal laying on hands,lift up serpents and drink all manner of poisons unharmed,who does that even symbolically? I can study all religons (drink all manner of poisons) but there were parts of the Koran that hurt me.'lift up serpents' would mean change people(would'nt that be nice?)

[LacyRoze]

I thought this would be a good topic and it's a good thread so far. Great idea, Windigo.

I have a question for the Christians here. It's the same question I have asked pagans so please don't think it's directed only at Christians. It's directed at Christians only on this thread.

For those of you who have had mystical experiences of some kind, such as being guided by voices or visions, did you attribute these experiences to some sort of Christian entity because the entity actually was of Christianity or because you are a Christian? For example, I know a guy in Voodoo who attributes EVERYTHING to the loa, every psuedo-mystical experience he has, when clearly this is not the case. But he wants it to be so he believes that it is. Another friend of mine sees the Fae in everything, every lost item was taken by the faeries, etc. Maybe she's right or maybe she just wants it to be that way, I don't know. So for those who have had mystical experiences of a Christian nature, how do you know it actually is of a Christian nature and not something else that you filter through your beliefs or desires or expectations? If you have had a mystical exeprience like voices or visions, how do you know it was God or Jesus or angels and not someone or something else?

By the way, I run myself through the same questioning process. I like to be sure about who and what I'm communicating with. I do nothing in this regard based on faith, belief, or desire. I prefer certainty when I can get it.

Oh mannnnnnnn,, now you've got me thinking again..:hehehehe: I'll get back to ya on this...

[GhostHacker]

christians? Jesus said that the way to tell if someone is a christian is they heal laying on hands,lift up serpents and drink all manner of poisons unharmed,who does that even symbolically? I can study all religons (drink all manner of poisons) but there were parts of the Koran that hurt me.'lift up serpents' would mean change people(would'nt that be nice?)

Never heard of that ;). I remember that it's written to test people in order to tell if they're christian or not:

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.



What I am trying to get to here is the relationship with God and/or Christ. Not Paul's interpretation of the relationship. Not Abraham's version of the relationship. Not Moses perspective of the relationship. YOUR perspective, YOUR interpretation, YOUR version.


My version IS Paul's version, and Peter's and John's etc, to the letter. I won't say it out loud on a pagan forum that I believe it to the letter, because that entails all the stuff about pagans going to hell. Sure I'll identify as a christian and I'm no fluffy "create your own ideas about God/the afterlife" christian, I do believe the hardline stuff about hell and all.


As for examining other paths.... I think a lot of you misunterstood my question. You seem to think the examination is in comparison to something else. Not at all. Not even close.

You'd have to define examine then ;)

I've read the holy books; The Torah/Bible/Koran/Bhagavad Gita/Dhammapada/Tao Te Ching, etc, I've been a pagan and a taoist, and a buddhist, etc. Many people around these forums have read them too.



A lot of pagans came to Wicca, Witchcraft and Paganism as a knee jerk reaction to Christianity. Some way of life within the Christian culture turned them away or forced them to turn away. Again, my Pastor friend and I have discussed this at length, and he has acknowledged that many Christians treat each other with terrible disrespect. He and his co-Pastor have to deal with this sort of disrespect nearly every week. But as he has pointed out, that is the humanity of the faith, it is not God, it is not Christ.

Remaining true to Christianity or Paganism must stand on it's own, without the need for comparison to something else. So when I ask WHY this path, I am not asking for a comparison, I am asking for an examination of why the relationship works, and what keeps you in the marriage (for lack of a better analogy).


Really I think the only reason I have to answer you, is that if anything else I've done the other paths and God called me to this one. " I tried the others, and the pagan paths weren't for me "



Posting your reasons for remaining in a relationship with a Christian deity may be the one post some lost soul reads at 3am and finds their way back to God, or Lugh, or Hermes, or Morrigan, or Hathor.


I kinda didn't understand this.... Bring someone back to Lugh or Hermes or Morrigan or Hathor? Do you mean to say, you believe God = Lugh = Hermes = Hathor?

[GhostHacker]

For those of you who have had mystical experiences of some kind, such as being guided by voices or visions, did you attribute these experiences to some sort of Christian entity because the entity actually was of Christianity or because you are a Christian? For example, I know a guy in Voodoo who attributes EVERYTHING to the loa, every psuedo-mystical experience he has, when clearly this is not the case. But he wants it to be so he believes that it is. Another friend of mine sees the Fae in everything, every lost item was taken by the faeries, etc. Maybe she's right or maybe she just wants it to be that way, I don't know. So for those who have had mystical experiences of a Christian nature, how do you know it actually is of a Christian nature and not something else that you filter through your beliefs or desires or expectations? If you have had a mystical exeprience like voices or visions, how do you know it was God or Jesus or angels and not someone or something else?

By the way, I run myself through the same questioning process. I like to be sure about who and what I'm communicating with. I do nothing in this regard based on faith, belief, or desire. I prefer certainty when I can get it.

The only real thing I can compare to this are times when I'll be bikeriding, looking for someone, and I have a certain feeling to go down one street or turn one way, or something, etc. I always manage to find the people I'm looking for and they have no clue how it happens. "How do you always know where we are?!?" I don't know, I pray for it to happen and these *educated guesses* surface. I attribute it to God answering my prayers.



look to your heart, and pray, seek the truth and you will find it...
as I said before,
I believe that Before King James came along, Christianity was a very Jewish, Mystical Path!

what has led me to this belief was years of seeking... one path leading me along, and then suddenly another, only to find it was the same...

as for the Druids, well if you are talking about the Celt's, they are a very Christian society..
please bear in mind when I say Christian, I am not talking about "Fundi landover baptist type"
I am referring to Christianity as it was (and still is in some societies) before the crusades.

The Rosicrucians are an example of Christian Mystics. as are the Order of Bards and Druids..
Some of the most Powerful Magic work is rooted in Christianity..

I think people make the mistake of associating the Holy Bible with One Religion, no, the Bible is not just a text for Christians of today, Qablallists have discovered a more deeper application of it by the use of Gematria and Sacred Geometry...

Raymond Buckland's candle magic book makes use of certain passages of the bible ...

In Freemasonry, No Lodge can be at work without the open Bible upon the altar...

alot of Golden Dawn, and Hermetic Texts are rooted in the bible as well...

If before King James, these people were mystics, that was their doing and not Christ's instructions. Christ preached against it, his disciples like Paul and Peter and John and Thomas never practiced it. The Golden Dawn and the Hermetic texts may be rooted in the Bible, but such magick is not allowed by biblical law.

Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers (Jeremiah 27:9)

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD
(Deuteronomy 18:9-13)

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


ect. The magick of the Golden Dawn, The Freemasons, Kaballah, and the Hermetic Texts was all manmade.... Definately not from God.

[EponaCapaill]

I kinda didn't understand this.... Bring someone back to Lugh or Hermes or Morrigan or Hathor? Do you mean to say, you believe God = Lugh = Hermes = Hathor?
Yes, that is what I believe.

Why am I Christian? Quite honestly, because my parents are and that is what they taught me. Why have I stayed? Because I am sufficiently drawn to the christian God and believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not sufficiently drawn to other Gods or Goddesses. That being said, I do believe that all Gods and Goddesses are aspects of one God that is neither Christian or Celtic or any other pantheon.

[LacyRoze]

I was thinking of how to answer this question while hanging clothes on the line, (don't laugh, I do some of my best thinking then). I've seen things from time to time and I've heard a voice talking to me. I have faith that this is from God. Do I have proof? No. I trust in God to lead and guide me. I have faith that he will do so. Certainly it's possible that there is another force involved. I recently started studying Sophia. I trust and have faith that if she spoke to me or I saw her it is because she was sent by God. I am open to many possibilities so I can't give you a definative answer on this....

[EponaCapaill]

I was thinking of how to answer this question while hanging clothes on the line, (don't laugh, I do some of my best thinking then). I've seen things from time to time and I've heard a voice talking to me. I have faith that this is from God. Do I have proof? No. I trust in God to lead and guide me. I have faith that he will do so. Certainly it's possible that there is another force involved. I recently started studying Sophia. I trust and have faith that if she spoke to me or I saw her it is because she was sent by God. I am open to many possibilities so I can't give you a definative answer on this....
This reminds me of a quote I read once:
FAITH IS BELIEVING IN SOMETHING THAT REASON TELLS YOU NOT TO.

No idea who said it or where I heard/read it. But I will never forget it.

[aluokaloo]

*sigh*

The art of self examination appears to be lost on this poor soul.

For those of you just tuning in, this post is reflective of what we in the Pagan Community refer to as a Fluffy. Those pagans/wiccans who are filled with "Light & Love" and never ever ever examine the dark side of their soul.

So let's throw the gaunlet down and ask the burning question:

Is it a sin to waste the intelligence God (YVHV Jehovah aka Christian God) gave you and not examine why you enjoy a relationship with this Deity?

Why THIS deity and not another?

Why THIS path and not another?

God gave you a navel, examine it!!

PS - Leave the Bible out of it, we are talking about examining the relationship with Deity (at least I am)

I look forward to reading the responses.... this has the potential of being an awesome thread!












Well that was crude beachwitch.For one thing, we are not discussing fluff, pagan or otherwise.Some people enjoy their relationship with deity, and he may feel its too personal or private to share, and if ghost thinks his God is awesome, well what of it.
Because as a whole, christians are monotheistic, that means they believe in one God.
Because sometimes it takes time to answer that question. Just because you may know why you follow the path that you do, doesn't mean you have to snipe others for not being so quick about it. Ahh, but the bible is a HUGE part of christianity! Its essential to them, as myths might be to various pagans. So since this thread is about why people are christian a bible has a very essential role.
You are completely entitled to your own opinion, but this is a bogus way to answer it.:thumbsdow

[Xander67]

For those of you who have had mystical experiences of some kind, such as being guided by voices or visions, did you attribute these experiences to some sort of Christian entity because the entity actually was of Christianity or because you are a Christian?


I was taught that Those things are attributed to the Holy Spirit...(Holy Guardian Angel)
it was that power that Rose Christ from the Dead, and it is that force that flows in me and is the source of visions etc...

there are I think 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit,
Prophecy, Healing, Miracle Working, Speaking in Tounges, Visions, and I cant think of the seventh off the top of my head...

all of these things Christ did, and he did say something along the lines of,

Not by might nor by power but BY the Spirit... He was referring to the Holy Spirit.

[LacyRoze]

Faith is a hard thing to come by especially when it's in something you can't physically see or touch. I has taken me many years to truly have faith. I can only speak for myself and in my life God has never let me down. He promised me that if I believed and had faith in him he would supply all my needs, not my wants, but my needs and he has. Whether it be a need of comfort, financial, reassurance or strength, he has always delivered when I put my trust in him.

While I sat at my father's death bed I witnessed God's mercy. My father proclaimed his belief in God and asked that God make his final journey peaceful and pain free. I watched in amazement as I saw peace wash over my father. My father lived out his last days pain free amazing even his doctors. He was on no meds at all. I learned alot from that experience and it will always be a turning point in my life and my faith....

[Xander67]

ok referring to my previous post..the items above are actually Manifestations of those seven Gifts, the actual 7 gifts are:
Wisdom,
Understanding,
Counsel,
Fortitude,
Knowledge,
Piety, and
Fear of the Lord

[GhostHacker]

Originally Posted by EponaCapaill
Why am I Christian? Quite honestly, because my parents are and that is what they taught me. Why have I stayed? Because I am sufficiently drawn to the christian God and believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not sufficiently drawn to other Gods or Goddesses. That being said, I do believe that all Gods and Goddesses are aspects of one God that is neither Christian or Celtic or any other pantheon

Eh, alright... Believe what thou wilt ;)

I once had the same thought. It never sat right with me.... The idea that God would go around the world and set up different religions that contradict each other, even that God would have to lie to do it.

Er, I mean, Whatever ;P Believe what you want ;)

[Xander67]

Eh, alright... Believe what thou wilt ;)

I once had the same thought. It never sat right with me.... The idea that God would go around the world and set up different religions that contradict each other, even that God would have to lie to do it.

Er, I mean, Whatever ;P Believe what you want ;)

Have you ever read Joseph campbel's book "the power of myth"??

Comparative Religion will show you that the different religions do not really contradict each other at the core...

and yes, I agree, Believe what you want... it is Highly Encouraged here...
if only more people would practise religious tollerance the world would be a better place.. _wth_

[EponaCapaill]

Eh, alright... Believe what thou wilt

I once had the same thought. It never sat right with me....
So, if I understand this and your other posts correctly, you believe that there is only one true way to God. That's fine, for you. I think that you will find that it is the belief of the majority of Christians on this board that there is no one right way to God. I was raised in a devout Catholic household. There was a time that I tried to believed the way you do. THAT never sat right with ME. I never understood how my best friends through out life (only one was Christian) were somehow bad or wrong for not being Christian. If their faith teaches a way to God that is different than mine, why is it wrong? It is only different. Because of the perceived confict in my mind I dropped out of religion all together for a time. But I came back because God showed me that there is no one right way. Yes, God. It was God that lead me to the people that I have encountered IRL that hold different veiws, it was God that lead me this board and another that deals with combining the Christian path and Pagan paths.

So, despite your obvious disdain for my path, nobody, not you or anyone else will move me from it. The only one that could is God.


The idea that God would go around the world and set up different religions that contradict each other, even that God would have to lie to do it.
Wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same and all had the same ideas? Could it not be God's intent for there TO BE DIFFERENCES? And for us to learn from each other? How can we grow if we do not learn new things? I am aware that you have explored many paths and you have been led to the one that you are on now. Are you saying it was sinful for you to have explored those paths? I do not believe it was. I am happy for you that you are on the path that you belong on. I am on the right path for me.

[arctic splash]

Ahh, but the bible is a HUGE part of christianity! Its essential to them, as myths might be to various pagans.

Just as you can't really understand Judaism by reading the Torah alone. To really understand it, you need to understand the liturgigal year and the various Jewish *practices* because for many Jews that's HUGE. To really understand a person's faith you have to try to see it from their perspective.


There was a time that I tried to believed the way you do. THAT never sat right with ME. I never understood how my best friends through out life (only one was Christian) were somehow bad or wrong for not being Christian.

I agree with everything you say, Epona. I have to humble myself and accept that others may be equally valid. Religion is etymologically a "linking" between ourselves and the universe. Everyone is different, so everyone feels this connection in a different way.

[Xander67]

Ghost,
In reguards to the different religions of the world...
I think the Tower Of Babel inncodent neccicitated the need for God to speak to the many nations in a language, ideology that they would understand...

Campbel touches on this in his book I mentioned earlier...

[arctic splash]

I think The Power of Myth is a transcription of the PBS series. I definitely recommend the series over the transcription, you've got to see Campbell in person. :) But his other books are good, too.

[Xander67]

actually, the PBS series is based on the book...

it is an interview of DR Campbell by William Moyers, and I agree... the pbs series is great becasue DR Campbell uses illustrations to accompany his lectures...

[starfire]

For those of you who have had mystical experiences of some kind, such as being guided by voices or visions, did you attribute these experiences to some sort of Christian entity because the entity actually was of Christianity or because you are a Christian?
.

For me, I have always prayed to God for help when things were difficult for me. Why God, because this is who I was taught as a child would be there for me when I couldn't turn to anyone else. If I was taught differently who knows who I would have looked to.

At one point in my life, my brother was dying from alcoholism. He had already almost died once from toxic hepatitis, and now he was right back there. I had done everything else, yelled, threatened, you name it I tried it. Finally I prayed, every day, all the time. I would be in the car driving, and would pray out loud for some direction, some help. Then a friend of mine was taking a class at church that was suppose to be about our faith and ended up being much more to me. More of about our relationship with God, did we fear him, the nuns the priest, did we feel he was good and loving? Gave a lot to think about.

This class was around Easter, and there was another before Chritmas, I went to that as well, just felt something was steering me to it. There was a lot of good stuff there to, and part of it was letting go of what we couldn't control instead of letting it control us. That year for Christmas I gave my brother something no one else had for a long time, I gave him and told him that my gift to him was unconditional love. That I loved him no matter what. I had an overwhelming sense of peace that year, something wonderful that I can't explain, but hadn't felt like that before. Later that year I told my brother if he ever wanted to talk that even though I was just his little sister I would be there. He called one night, we went to coffee, he was drinking a beer, and I said it was OK. He told me how he wanted to stop, but couldn't, he couldn't do anything because of shaking so bad that he would drink first thing in the morning. I told him if he wanted help that I would go with him to an inpatient program, and he took me up on it. He has been clean and sober for over 15 years, never did the aa thing, but realized if he ever continues he would die. He is my only relative still living, bless his soul for quitting.

Shortly after that my Dad commited suicide, and my other brother who I was very close todied of a massive heart attack at 36, a year later. The experience I had during this time at church also helped me deal with this.....This is only one of my experiences where I felt I was guided by some force.

It doesn't have anything to do with the bible, only a strong belief that when I needed help it was there.

Could it have been any other? Sure, but I asked God for help.

My kids are not following the same path, they have their own ideas, and I am not sure about my youngest, of what she believes. They both had difficulty with beliving in Jesus or God after their dad was killed in a car accident. I still support them in their own journey of finding what they wish to believe.

We have close friends that are a mixture Pagan and Christians alike, they are all blessed with goodness, They are all on their own path and I respect them for who they are

[arctic splash]

actually, the PBS series is based on the book...

it is an interview of DR Campbell by William Moyers, and I agree... the pbs series is great becasue DR Campbell uses illustrations to accompany his lectures...

Cool. :) I looked at the book and saw it was in interview form and figured it was just a transcript.

[Ninjakitten]

For those of you who have had mystical experiences of some kind, such as being guided by voices or visions, did you attribute these experiences to some sort of Christian entity because the entity actually was of Christianity or because you are a Christian? For example, I know a guy in Voodoo who attributes EVERYTHING to the loa, every psuedo-mystical experience he has, when clearly this is not the case. But he wants it to be so he believes that it is. Another friend of mine sees the Fae in everything, every lost item was taken by the faeries, etc. Maybe she's right or maybe she just wants it to be that way, I don't know. So for those who have had mystical experiences of a Christian nature, how do you know it actually is of a Christian nature and not something else that you filter through your beliefs or desires or expectations? If you have had a mystical exeprience like voices or visions, how do you know it was God or Jesus or angels and not someone or something else?


I attribute it to the Christian Godde because of what the Divine told me when it said to "look in the one place I was unwilling to look". I wasn't raised Christian enough to even know what that whole death on the cross thing was supposed to mean at the time, so it was very hard for me to look at what happened to me through a Christian lens. It was after the experiences, and knowing who my boyfriend was praying to, that I looked at Christianity and saw that the things I was told and was feeling and beginning to experience were in the Bible and taught by Jesus, and some by Paul (the parts that I don't think were left over junk from Paul's Pharasee past leaking over into his newfound faith in Christ). Even later then that did I learn that my next step in my path would include either Wicca or Druidism in (amongst a slew of other things, including the way Christ led people in life) the fact that when I was contacted by Diety the first time, it was in what would be called a "magic circle or sphere", and that was never taught in the Christian church. It was also then that I realized I needed to take a critical eye and a prayerful reading to the Bible, and not just take the Church's word for what it all means, and learned of the mistranslations (especially on things like witchcraft) and how the Bible is a human account of Divine contact and interaction, and not the Holy Spirit taking over a human mind and writing the Bible through him (though in some cases I believe it was, especially in things that were passed verbally then written later).

[EponaCapaill]

I agree with everything you say, Epona. I have to humble myself and accept that others may be equally valid. Religion is etymologically a "linking" between ourselves and the universe. Everyone is different, so everyone feels this connection in a different way.

I'd poke ya for that, but http://bestsmileys.com/eek/2.gif I'm out of pokes for a while! How did we all become such poke-a-holics? I never used to run out when we only had 10! Will getcha later!

[GhostHacker]

Have you ever read Joseph campbel's book "the power of myth"??

Comparative Religion will show you that the different religions do not really contradict each other at the core...


I've heard of the books and have friends who have read them, but I've never read anything from Joseph Campbel. It does make me wonder how he shows that different religions do not really contradict themselves at the core... First a "core" needs to be established. Yes, many religions say to do good deeds and be charitable, but this command has various statuses of importance in different religions. As well, much more goes into a religion than just ethical action; I don't know how Campbel can cut out everything else and claim that to be religion's core. Besides that, he still has to take into account:

The God of the bible said not to bow down to idols (Exodus 20:3), to believe that Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16), that God is the First and the Last (nothing came before him Rev. 1:8), that He is the only God (Exodus 20:1), and that witchcraft/divining/enchantment/magick etc is wrong (Deut 18:10)

If you say that Allah = YHVH, that's impossible. Allah had no son (Sura 23:91)
If you say that Zen/Tao = YHVH, you're wrong. According to taoism, Tao created God (TTC chapter 4)
Buddhism =/= worship of YHVH, because buddhism teaches that you can achieve a state of godliness yourself
Pagan gods =/= YHVH, because pagans practice polytheism and divining which YHVH said was wrong
the Lord and Lady (wicca) =/= YHVH because they practice witchcraft, something that YHVH told us not to do.
And hinduism, of all these religions, does everything above. It even teaches that their main god Brahma had incest with his own daughter Sarasvati. Hindus bow to statues/idols and practice polytheism and divining, and say that they have godliness/divinity inside them), they say that Brahma created all the other hindu gods, and they say that Brahma had no son that came down to Save them.



So, if I understand this and your other posts correctly, you believe that there is only one true way to God. That's fine, for you. I think that you will find that it is the belief of the majority of Christians on this board that there is no one right way to God.


You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight (Luke 16:13-15, NIV).

Do the christians on this board not believe in the very words Christ said in John 14:6?

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father (God), but by me.



I was raised in a devout Catholic household. There was a time that I tried to believed the way you do. THAT never sat right with ME. I never understood how my best friends through out life (only one was Christian) were somehow bad or wrong for not being Christian.


They are not bad or wrong for not being christian. They are still human, and God still commands us to love the sinner, hate the sin. Nowhere in the bible does it say that they are bad because they are not christian, it says their religion/lack-of-religion is bad


If their faith teaches a way to God that is different than mine, why is it wrong? It is only different. Because of the perceived confict in my mind I dropped out of religion all together for a time. But I came back because God showed me that there is no one right way. Yes, God.


Wait, you say the Christian God told you there is no one right way?

The Christian God also said this, and I'll requote it:

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father (God), but by me.

The Christian God says He IS the only way. Unless God lied, which is totally impossible itself, I don't believe it was the Christian God who put you into a pagan path.



It was God that lead me to the people that I have encountered IRL that hold different veiws, it was God that lead me this board and another that deals with combining the Christian path and Pagan paths.

God would never lead you to such a path, His holy word condemns it.

". . . the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?" 1 Corinthians 10:20-22


There is a possible explanation to who led you here, and he is very good at deceiving people. I know you may not believe in Satan (and that's what he wants, btw), but he masqueraded as God and led you to your conclusions

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.



So, despite your obvious disdain for my path, nobody, not you or anyone else will move me from it. The only one that could is God.

I've even said Believe what you want. However if you bring it up that the christian "God" told you to go pagan, be careful.... the Christian God has said He will not do anything like that.

[GhostHacker]

Ghost,
In reguards to the different religions of the world...
I think the Tower Of Babel inncodent neccicitated the need for God to speak to the many nations in a language, ideology that they would understand...

Religion and language are hardly similar.

As for the Tower of Babel, God wasn't breaking up His loyal followers into many different nations, he was breaking up the people who had rebelled against Him, trashed His altars and commited sins rejecting Him .The ones who thought to themselves, "We are absolutely splendiferous! Why, we are SO wonderful, let’s build a magnificent city to show just how wonderful we are!” and tried making a tower so high that they could be in the clouds on the same level as God. To "deify" themselves.

[Shadowsong]

Um, GhostHacker? I really think you're getting waaaay too defensive here. RESPECT. Some Christians I know believe the Bible is very open to interpretation, so not everything has to be taken literally. Besides different things were 'feared' back then, but times have changed. As I said, if the Bible is meant to be taken literally, then women would still be treated like sh** today.
I'm sorry but I really think you're being overly harsh and rude to many people because of their beliefs.

[Xander67]

Ghost,

I will just agree to disagree that we have obvious differences in what we both think GOD is...

and the natiure of God.

Look within...

Im not trying to invalidate your beliefs...
I just think that we have different beliefs about the whole CONCEPT of GOD..

To me he is not some intangible concept up in the heavens... He is Everwhere, In everything and everyone...

I am not saying I am God.......... no, but even God's word says this concerning charity..
"when you give to the least of these my brethern you do unto me" (paraphrazed)

I laid out my beliefs, and you likewise, I have no right to say you are wrong, and you do not have the right to say any of the others here are wrong...

[GhostHacker]

Um, GhostHacker? I really think you're getting waaaay too defensive here. RESPECT. Some Christians I know believe the Bible is very open to interpretation, so not everything has to be taken literally. Besides different things were 'feared' back then, but times have changed. As I said, if the Bible is meant to be taken literally, then women would still be treated like sh** today.
I'm sorry but I really think you're being overly harsh and rude to many people because of their beliefs.

Some Christians believe the bible may be open to interpretations, cool. I say Believe what you want, I'm not going to try to harpoon "ditch your religion" into their heads. When they start saying, "oh, yeah, we can interpret what we want", then they've crossed over into my specialty, my religion.

But really, how many different ways can "Don't bow to idols" be interpreted? Or, "Don't have any Gods before me?"

What we cherish the most determines how we behave. When our values are flawed we look for ways to justify our views and behavior, deceiving ourselves (James 1:22-24).

---There is no possible way that Christ would say, "go follow the pagan gods", lest He divided his kingdom against himself:

"Matthew 12:24
12:25
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
12:26
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"

And if Christ should say, "Go follow Lugh or Krishna or Osiris or Loki or whomever", He would be dividing HIS kingdom.

The bible doesn't say women have to be tamed or treated like sh**

[starfire]

I am glad there are people that can quote the bible. I cannot, I don't know how much of the bible has been re-written to mean something other than it was origionally ment to be. I also feel that many things in the bible were written to concern a specific time and problems of those time. Many things in it are good to think about and see how it would apply today. So yes I am still a Chritian, maybe to some not a very good one, but I do believe in God, and try to live my life to be the best person I can be, and I try not to judge others, isn't there something about God or Jesus being the ones to do that?

So accept people for who they are, don't always agree with them, and I am sure they don't always agree with me. I even hate what some people do, like hurting others, or being deceptive or mean, but I try to do my best

[GhostHacker]

I am glad there are people that can quote the bible. I cannot, I don't know how much of the bible has been re-written to mean something other than it was origionally ment to be. I also feel that many things in the bible were written to concern a specific time and problems of those time. Many things in it are good to think about and see how it would apply today. So yes I am still a Chritian, maybe to some not a very good one, but I do believe in God, and try to live my life to be the best person I can be, and I try not to judge others, isn't there something about God or Jesus being the ones to do that?



Actually, we have the original writings of early christians, who quoted much of the Bible. To be certain, we can reconstruct the New Testament in full just from the writings of early christians.

As for the OT, the Hebrew Torah and Talmud have never changed. The Church couldn't have tampered with that, unless they did steal every copy of it from the Jews (which would, in effect, be impossible as trying to wipe the torah from existance today).

Common thing for people to say that "oh, the bible's been changed" when it's stayed the same for the past 2000 years and beyond.

[starfire]

Actually, we have the original writings of early christians, who quoted much of the Bible. To be certain, we can reconstruct the New Testament in full just from the writings of early christians.

As for the OT, the Hebrew Torah and Talmud have never changed. The Church couldn't have tampered with that, unless they did steal every copy of it from the Jews (which would, in effect, be impossible as trying to wipe the torah from existance today).

Common thing for people to say that "oh, the bible's been changed" when it's stayed the same for the past 2000 years and beyond.

This is interesting, but could not they also have been changed as they(Torah and Talmud) have been handed down? With so many places of worship, copies must be made, no?

When you say "we have the original writings of early christians" who is WE and where are they. I would be interested in reading things like this.

[Xander67]

scince we are quoting scripture here, at this point I feel the need to point out that the translations have been tampered with...

different words have different meanings according to different Cultures and different periods of time..

example, today Virgin means Sexually pure...
the context of how it was used in scripture was to refer to a Maiden, not to a woman who had not known a man sexually....... Jesus had Older Brothers and sisters, (just to give you an example)

[EponaCapaill]

I've even said Believe what you want. However if you bring it up that the christian "God" told you to go pagan, be careful.... the Christian God has said He will not do anything like that.
I am not pagan. I do not honor any Gods other than the Christian God. But I do believe other Gods exist and they are all part of, for lack of a better term, One Big God. The Christian God said no other gods BEFORE me, not there are no other Gods.

[Xander67]

Actually, we have the original writings of early christians, who quoted much of the Bible. To be certain, we can reconstruct the New Testament in full just from the writings of early christians.

As for the OT, the Hebrew Torah and Talmud have never changed. The Church couldn't have tampered with that, unless they did steal every copy of it from the Jews (which would, in effect, be impossible as trying to wipe the torah from existance today).

Common thing for people to say that "oh, the bible's been changed" when it's stayed the same for the past 2000 years and beyond.

You should Read Rabbi Chernoff's book....
there were deliberate anti sematic forces at work... the translation that we know as the King James Version has SEVERAL mistranslations, they have all been proven inaccurate against the original hebrew text. This was done by Royal decree of the king when he wanted to strip Christianity of its rightfull Jewish/ Qabbalistic aspects.

[Xander67]

". . . the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?" 1 Corinthians 10:20-22

.

What Bible are you reading, My bible reads like this...

{10:19} What am I saying then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is
anything, or that an idol is anything? {10:20} But I say that the
things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not
to God, and I don't desire that you would have fellowship with demons.
{10:21} You can't both drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of
demons. You can't both partake of the table of the Lord, and of the
table of demons.
1 Corinthians 10:19-21 World English Bible: Messianic Edition

[Xander67]

also, VERY important, This passage of scripture is a letter from PAUL and was not the words of Yshua...

[Xander67]

What Bible are you reading, My bible reads like this...

{10:19} What am I saying then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is
anything, or that an idol is anything? {10:20} But I say that the
things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not
to God, and I don't desire that you would have fellowship with demons.
{10:21} You can't both drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of
demons. You can't both partake of the table of the Lord, and of the
table of demons.
1 Corinthians 10:19-21 World English Bible: Messianic Edition

the KJV version also uses Gentiles... Pagan is not used at all in either translation
????

[Xander67]

Im gonna go take a nap now....... BBL

[Ninjakitten]

.... um, translation please?!


LOL! If we could do that, there wouldn't be any debate going on in the first place. :D

[arctic splash]

And hinduism, of all these religions, does everything above. It even teaches that their main god Brahma had incest with his own daughter Sarasvati. Hindus bow to statues/idols and practice polytheism and divining, and say that they have godliness/divinity inside them), they say that Brahma created all the other hindu gods, and they say that Brahma had no son that came down to Save them.

I think you misunderstand the nature of Hinduism. If we are to take Hinduism seriously, it's not polytheistic, and they don't exactly bow to idols. At the core of Hindu philosophy is an understanding that everyone is different and so everyone should approach the divine in his or her own way. So there are many ways to God through Hinduism. Some people approach the Divine intellectually through an understanding that they are one with the Divine. But this approach is too abstract for many, who need to experience the Divine in a more concrete way. For some people it's hard to feel connected to an idea, they need something concrete. For many people it's easier to be devoted to the Divine in human form than to an abstract idea. Hinduism has a path for these people: there are the myths, there are gods and goddesses, but these aren't to be taken as the reality. They are merely tools through which Hindus who need a more concrete experience of the Divine can do that. This is not polytheism. This is recognising in concrete form different facets of ONE Divine.

Hinduism recognises the myths as myths. They recognise the gods as merely tools for understanding and relating to the divine. Well, not all Hindus do, but Hinduism as a general philosophy does.

A really good introduction source is Houston Smith's The World's Religons, the first chapter.

[EponaCapaill]

the KJV version also uses Gentiles... Pagan is not used at all in either translation
????
My bible does not use either term. It is the New American Bible. A Catholic bible.
It says:

{10:18} Look at Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the alter? {10:19} So what am I saying? That meat sacrificed to idols is anything? Or that an idol is anything? {10:20} No, I mean that what they sacrifice, [they sacrifice] to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons.

Now, with {10:20} there is this explanation written in: "To Demons: although Jews denied divinity to pagan gods, they often believed that there were some nondivine reality behind the idols, such as the dead, or angels, or demons. The explanation Paul offers in v 20 is drawn from Dt 32, 7: the power behind the idols, with which the pagans commune, consists of demonic powers hostile to God."

Ok, this is a thought I had while I was out grocery shopping earlier. If you were a God, any God, wouldn't it be to your benefit to vilify other Gods? It has been said that God cannot lie. Well, why not? Do any of us really know the true nature of God? This explanation that was given for 1 Corintians 10-20 seems to, at least on some level, support this. "The demonic powers were hostile to God" or think of it this way, "The other Gods are getting in my way of picking up new followers." Just a thought, not saying I believe this or don't believe this. It is just something to chew on.

BTW, We are :fofftopic

[LacyRoze]

Ok, so I'm going to bow out of this now. I won't be a part of the whole "I'm right, you're wrong" thing. My God knows my heart and that's all that matters. I have no right to condemn anothers path nor does another have the right to condemn mine. Blessings to you all!!

[EponaCapaill]

.... um, translation please?!




LOL! If we could do that, there wouldn't be any debate going on in the first place.
http://yelims4.free.fr/MDR/MDR84.gifAgreed!

[GhostHacker]

ADMIN MODE

Enough. One more proselytizing post and you are gone.

Er, yeah, I fear I'd best drop the topic now.

[DragonSeer]

Hey, It'd be nice to know!_happydanc

I never called myself Christian; when I was Catholic, that's what I called myself (figuring that everyone would know that I was that I practiced that particular sect of Christianity).

Since leaving Catholicism, I've come to grow closer to Jesus, viewing him as a Master Teacher (as I believe was the Buddha and many others whom are still revered today). One could call me a Gnostic Christian; or Christo-Pagan would be applicable, as well.

Honestly, I've grown tired of even using the term Christian in any label because most die-hards (aka, orthodox to Fundamentalists) I've encountered in various religious forums insist on telling me how/why it is that I'm not a "true" Christian. I've grown tired of the judgmentalism and the arguments, when I owe no explanation to such close-minded people. Hmph.

In my heart and mind, however, I will likely still apply the terms Christo and Gnostic to myself because they *do* apply to me. I believe in the teachings of the Christ, in the message that he attempted to convey to those few who were wise enough to catch on. But I'm also drawn to various, more generic Pagan practices (hence my usage of the term Christo-Pagan). In short, I'm not an orthodox Christian and proud of that fact. :)

[arctic splash]

Honestly, I've grown tired of even using the term Christian in any label because most die-hards (aka, orthodox to Fundamentalists) I've encountered in various religious forums insist on telling me how/why it is that I'm not a "true" Christian

I totally understand. I used to call myself a Christian. I'm grateful that I never went through any kind of crisis of faith, but came to my current more pagan beliefs very smoothly and gradually out of my Christian beliefs. I knew my heart was in the right place. Can anyone else have any idea where my heart is from the mere fact that I do (or don't) call myself Christian? To me it's just a word. People's hearts are another matter.

I trusted in, "You will know them by their fruits," and I found the fruits of paganism were fresh and juicy. :D It may have even been that verse that helped me be comfortable trusting myself, rather than relying on someone else's interpretations, or fearing that God will be angry at me for exploring paganism, other world religions (and other forms of Christianity). I need only know their fruits by looking into my own heart and discerning if the ideas I encounter seem nurturing and good to me. Also... in Judaism thinking critically and even questioning God is encouraged; I don't see why Christianity should be any different. I think that's healthy. God won't get angry if you question him; that takes faith. A deeper kind of faith.

And... I trusted in, "have faith as small as a mustard seed, and you can say to a mountian, move from here to there, and it will move," and so I believed in magic.

[starfire]

it is interesting how some do judge one religion or another based on what they were taught by their own church/ leaders. Many do not look into the current believes of a religion before they make negative remarks about the person or their religion that may not be valid. An example: My son was told he was not a christian because his religion also recognized people as saints because of what they did in there lives and some people chose to use them as a mediator between this world and Christ. He was Catholic. Another neighbor was put down for being in a cult that didnt believe in christ. She was a Morman .

[Xander67]

agreed, and I for one would still like to know what version of the bible Ghost Hacker was useing,
all of the translations I checked didnt mesh with some of the words he used, ...

specificly the quote in I corinthians... the word Pagan was not used in that particular passage in the Messianic and King James Version, nor in the Catholic Bible...

one thing I think is extremely important when talking with people concerning scriptures and text..
Just because someone is quoting scripture does not necciarily mean that they are quoting it Correctly.

[BeachWitch]

Originally Posted by mol
ADMIN MODE

Enough. One more proselytizing post and you are gone.

Sorry Mol, but the damage was done. This poster had every intention of disrupting the thread from their first innane and flippant post.

This is the reason Christianity can not be discussed realistically on MW, because it devolves into proselytizing, and mistranslations of scripture. It is the very reason I said to leave the Bible out of it and tell us what YOU think. But as is always the case my words are twisted and used in a manner that was never intended.

But thanks for trying. *wink*

[mol]

Sorry Mol, but the damage was done. This poster had every intention of disrupting the thread from their first innane and flippant post.

This is the reason Christianity can not be discussed realistically on MW, because it devolves into proselytizing, and mistranslations of scripture. It is the very reason I said to leave the Bible out of it and tell us what YOU think. But as is always the case my words are twisted and used in a manner that was never intended.

But thanks for trying. *wink*
ADMIN MODE

From the FAQ: "Please do not discuss moderations in the forums. If you have a problem with a moderation then pm an administrator. If you are not comfortable approaching the same admin that moderated you, then pm a different admin."

Sorry, BW...but that's the rules. And....there is no reason to leave the Bible out of it. I have plenty of great discussions with Christians regarding the bible and it doesn't end up with proselytizing. Proselytizing is the problem...not the Bible.

Please do not discuss the moderations in threads, folks.

[starfire]

I find it interesting how things change from the original question which was
"Are you Christian? If you are, then post up why here! There have been a lot of interesting questions, and discussions, and many have lead it away from the original question because they didn't like the way someone answered. Even to the point of starting to put down someone for the way they did answer. I have read some things that would make me want to look more into the diversities of beliefs, and see some things here that would be ideal for perhaps a thread on discussion of the bible, scriptures, religion etc. I would also like to hear more about why other christians are on this sight, what has kept them as christians and why they are on this sight. I think it is very interesting to know.
I also thing the administators are trying to do a good job by curtailing it back to the original discussion

[IvyWitch]

I know I am a little late on this....but GhostHacker, I think there are a few things you need to remember:

1. You are a guest in someone elses house (i.e. this forum). You are required to treat it, it's owners and it's other guests with respect.
2. You chose to come here. We respect Christianity, and I hope you have enough respect for the beliefs of others not to come into thier house and tell them what to believe.

[Spera]

Well. First there is the familial connection. It's one of my ways of
connecting with my family, it's also my conenction to the Ballengers
who have been just some of the best people in my life.

I turned away from Christianity when I saw so many people being untrue
to what I had always thought it was. When I saw people abusing people
in the name of soemone I belived to be protecting them.

Another bit has bee camp- the most intensive Spiritual expirience I've
ever heard of in my own and other peoples lives. I don't think I know
anyone that has gone and not received from that expirience.

And God.. I've had two really intense expiriences connecting to God in
voice- sorta. The one I'm willing to tell people about when he argued
with me about college and told me where I would eb going. He wasn't
ordering me though, he was teasing me becasue he knew what I was going
to decide. My other college choice would have had me in school with
Tiffny. Which, though I love her dearly. That would not have been
agood place for me. i think both of us would still be trapped in past
fear and terror.

I guess the Chisitany is mostly expirience... I have a million
memories and connections.

And classes, in college I took 4 classes that dealt with Christianity
and every class I took made me see further into my own life and into
understanding the things i really fought agaist when I was younger.
Having more knowledge made me feel more free to explore that side of
myself.

Also Chrisitanity is one of the only religions that makes humans
individually important to the God. Most religions set up people as
worshipers, and christianity sets us up as loved. We aren't created
for the God's vanity but becasue of his creativity and love of us,
each of is.

Also, the building of Zion- I have a reason to exist here on the earth
other than my dying. we are open to purpose this way.

I do feel uncomfortable with fundamental christianity- I have some
issues with the idea of hell- and someone dying for me really seems
unfair and makes me feel uncomfortable... I dunno.

[Severan]

It is important to understand that your average christian is mostly ignorant of the scriptures he reads. It is one of the only religions on the planet where its followers have no real clue of the context of their sacred documents. However, it is also important to understand that most christians, in my experience anyway, are some of the most loving people I have ever encountered. However, we are taught by both teachers and by what is written...most christians are only taught by what their leaders believe the scriptures say. That is where most of the problem of the faith come in. For centuries the Jews were blamed for killing christ due to one mistranslation in the scriptures. History was never taken into account with this accusation. The people believed what their leaders told them. So when talking to the christian cut them a bit of slack...your average christian believes he/she is teaching you redemption.

Anyway..thats my rant. Sorry if it was a bit off base.

Sev