What is up with this?

[Agaliha]

Just awhile ago I went on to Yahoo to try to find out more about Slavic Recon (btw, if anyone has any info on ritual and practice let me know!) and I came across this board post. It annoyed me.



To the topic of: "im slavic blood. does that hurt my closeness?"
Original poster:
hi i have been trying to learn as much on odinism as much as possible. but i was wondering if the slavic religion is different from, or an 'influence' off of odinism. if so to the first, will it effect my closeness to the gods.
First Reply:
Wow, sorry but I get sick of these types of thread threads. Being slavic you have your own ancestrial religion, your own gods/goddesses and your own culture. I dont see how you could in any way feel "close" to gods who are not your gods. Why would you want to follow the folkway of another group of people? Take time and learn, read and study the Slavic folkway, the whole point of Asatru is it is the religion of the germanic, scandinavian, northern european peoples. It is a fact you have no ties to our folkway or pantheon, you are Polish, a Slavic person so why not look into YOUR culture not the culture of someone else. Thor is MY god, Perun is YOUR god, Odin is MY god, Swarog is YOUR god. If you want to follow a ancestrial religion follow one of your folk and blood, something you have ties to. You calling yourself an Odinist or Asatruar is like someone from Norway calling themselfs a Buddist, it makes no sense at all really.
I do have a few Slavic Heathen friends that I talk to online. I could give you their contact e-mail addresses if you would like. I've said this to many people before and I will say it again, you will never be feel complete spiritually following the folkway of a folk that is not your own.
You are not of Germanic/Scandinavian/Northern European blood if you are Polish. I am not saying that as an insult its just fact, as much as you might not like to hear my non politically correct answer it is you have no right to follow the gods of my folk.
From: http://www.odinist.com/othala/archive/index.php/t-201.html (http://www.odinist.com/othala/archive/index.php/t-201.html)


It was the first reply that annoyed me. :foh:
People don't choose their parents, their race/ethnicity, where they grow up in--things like that. Why sould they be bound to genetics-- again something they cannot choose? I feel that it is not one's ancestry that is the most important-- it's what their heart and soul feel comfortable and at peace with. I have never came across a person with Egyptian ancestry practicing Tameran or Kemeticism-- the majority of those who do aren't even Middle Eastern. Same with Mesopotamian Gods (Which is moder Iraq and Iran now). To say those Gods aren't your's just because you don't have the ancestry is stupid. I understand why people follow a path of their ancestory-- I'm just looking into it myself with the Slavic Recon, but to tell someone what the first posted did...sheesh.
I don't know...
Anyone annoyed about it or is it just me? :lookaroun
Do poeple that follow that Path feel the same...or is this guy just out there?

[Caelia RavenWolf]

Oh I think that guy is just a jerk. I suppose he could feel as though his culture is being stolen... but I don't think that should really apply in his case. I also like that the Gods he worships actually belong to him... I'm sure they're loving that... I would be curious to know why he has such a chip on his shoulder but personally I tend to just ignore those people. Eventually they go away. :p

As for your info. needs, I don't really know a whole lot about Slavic Recon. myself but I've got a few links that might help you out some:

http://slavjanstvo.org/en/ (http://slavjanstvo.org/en/)

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=pt4tpr6qwibu?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Slavic+mythology&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b&linktext=Slavic%20religion (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=pt4tpr6qwibu?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Slavic+mythology&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b&linktext=Slavic%20religion)

http://www.hippywitch.net/slavic/slavianstvo.php (http://www.hippywitch.net/slavic/slavianstvo.php)

I know more sites exist but I don't know of any others that are in English.

[RubyRose]

Yeah that's just wrong in my opinion. Before I begun searching for information on my family tree (on my mothers side) I originally thought that simply because my grandmother was born in Wales, that must have meant her parents were born in Wales, and so on and so forth down the lines. As I've come to learn my grandmother's ancestors originated in England ... Wiltshire to be exact. So by that person's logic I should be following an Anglo-Saxon path, along with Anglo-Saxon deities, and not being worshipping Welsh deities.

Really its up to the individual as to what path they follow, and why they follow it.

[Redbranchwarrior]

In some strict line Asatru it is taught to be racially pure. I have run into a few in my day, and used to be pretty good friends with an Odinist. It's an old line belief that only the "pure" are worthy, the rest don't belong.

[David19]

I personally think that that what he said is dumb because spirituality isn't carried in your blood, its something you feel called to like my grandma on my mums side is jewish and my dads family is catholic so if that were true, i should be jewish or catholic but i feel more called to paganism. I am looking into Hebrew deities and Celtic but i'm also looking into Greek, Egyptian, Aztec, and some others because i feel called to most of them. Also humans come from the same DNA pool so we're all bound to probably have most cultures in our blood, there's no pure bloodline since we all have the DNA from different parts of the world such as Africa which is where humans orginally came from. I just read something in a book that says we all came from the same primordial pool so we are all connected.

Anyway that's my answer :)

[Elderbush]

Asatru and some of the other recon religions, or sections of them, see religion, culture, way of life and ancestry as not easily divided as I understand it. They worship the gods of their ancestors and family group and wonder why someone would be so disrespectful to their own ancestors as to reject their heritage.

Adoption into other family groups and cultures has gone on for thousands of years however, so if you do choose to reject your own heritage and embrace an alien one, there are ways to do that. But you have to understand that a lot of Asatru do not divide religion and culture. You must walk the talk.

And in my opinion, you should always follow the gods that call and speak to you, of course.

[Moon Flower]

Hmm.

As someone who has never met her 'parents', and know very little about them, and therefore has no known genetic heritage, I find that persons position to be a little alienating.

However, I would say that his position, while very narrow does have some merits.
As I have said, I do not know my 'heritage'. However, I was brought up in Britain, within British culture, I have British mores and values.
Sometimes I actually find myself defending the rotton old land!
Therefore it is easier for me to connect with a system that is based upon those values, and the unspoken, ingrained belifs and habits that define me as British.

If I were to try to adopt a religion or culture fron another place I would find myself up against a cultural barrier. Oe where I try to assimilate and understand a whole wealth of symbols, habits, beliefs, values and meanings that those born there have learned from the cradle.
Most often these would conflict with the stuff that I had grown up with. I would therefore have to find a compromise between the two. And this in itself would change the thing to which I was trying to belong.

This is not to say that someone should not follow a different path to that of their birth country. I was brought up a Xtian, but I shrugged most of that off pretty quick.
What I am saying is that it is easier to follow a path that has some cultural similarities to ones own.

Now, the importance of blood, genetics or racial memory. Of this I cannot speak. (sadly)

[Agaliha]

Well I'm glad to know it wasn't just me. Thanks for the comments.

And thank you, Caelia RavenWolf for the links. Now that I know the name "SLAVIANSTVO" I might be able to find more (I was just looking up Slavic Paganism) :)

[frigga]

Nope, wasn't just you! COuld you imagine what a hay day they'd have with those of us that draw from many paths?! If I were to follow their beliefs I'd be Asatru, or Celtic, Slavic, and what did they practice in France? Nah on them!

[BlackEyed_Susan]

Nope, wasn't just you! COuld you imagine what a hay day they'd have with those of us that draw from many paths?! If I were to follow their beliefs I'd be Asatru, or Celtic, Slavic, and what did they practice in France? Nah on them!

That's one of the reasons that Wiccans get such a bad rep from Recons sometimes, I think. We've got a heritage that's barely celebrated its Gold Anniversary, was partly made up, partly inspired by not-as-accurate-as-it-could-have-been anthropology, spooned on heaping amounts of folklore, and borrowed the rest from other groups that had it first. (I realize that a lot of people don't agree with that version of Wiccan history, and I respect their right to that belief...). I don't think that eclecticism is bad in and of itself, when it is done responsibly, with integrity, and with respect to other cultures. The lines get fuzzy on all that at times, though, and I can definitely understand why it cheeses Recons off. However, like I said, I think that eclecticism can be done responsibly - a lot of people just don't agree with me :whatmewor I'm fine with that.

Um. I had a point. I think I lost it somewhere in all that.

[argento_occhi]

I can't help what I feel. My family's from Wales, Ireland and England, yet I've never felt so much as a pull towards those pagan ways. None at all. And I have no palate nor talent for speaking Welsh. I can't do it. Much as my mum has tried to teach me, I just can't pronounce it. Kemetic I can do, and it makes sense in my mind. But, Welsh, nope. Can't do it. I know it's not required to speak Welsh to follow that path, but I just can't pronounce the words properly. They make no sense in my mind, like someone just decided to throw the letters together and see what came up and make a language that way. It confuses me greatly. OK, I'll stop hampering on the Welsh bit.

For someone to ask me why I'm rejecting my heritage by following a Kemetic path instead, I just find irritating and insulting. Ancient Egypt has called to me for as long as I can remember. I find it hard to ignore the pull to Egypt. I'm begining to suspect They may have chosen me well before I was aware of it. There's a lot about me that's not exactly common -- or existent -- in my family tree at all. As far as I know, there's only me and my cousin who have any talent at all for science. The rest of the tree is made up of teachers, ship builders, missionaries, brickies and ministers, if I remember correctly. We're the oddballs. And there's the musician gene in my dad's family that I seem to have missed too. Sure, I can sing, but that's as musical as I get.

One day I hope to be able to honour my ancestors, but that's not where my faith lies. I don't choose my Gods, They seem to have a habit of choosing me. Who am I to question why? If They're Kemetic, so be it. They've shown me I belong there. Besides, if you go back far enough, you can find African ancestors from the beginning of our evolution.

Follow your own path, wherever it takes you. If you're drawn to your heritage, good for you. If you're not, does it really matter? Why is this thing about being true to your heritage so important to some? I've never understood it.

I'm sorry if this is coming across as ranty. *has the sudden desire to LJ it* I'm not trying to insult anyone or be harsh, so if it comes off that way, I don't mean it that way. This is just something I feel strongly about, ok, having read about this for years and seen all this advice on following your ancestors and heritage, and being told you're wrong for not being true to your blood. Sorry, geting ranty again.

Argent

[Elderbush]

It seems the real problem is acceptance by others? What does it matter what the other people think of you if you are satisfied with your individual path yourself?

That's not to be mean but honestly, if I decided that I wanted to follow the Navajo gods and read up on them, I would definately NOT expect the majority of the Navajo people to accept me as Navajo or encourage my path. The path may truly feel right to me, but it is an individual path rather than a true Navajo one.

[Moon Flower]

I can't help what I feel. My family's from Wales, Ireland and England, yet I've never felt so much as a pull towards those pagan ways. None at all. And I have no palate nor talent for speaking Welsh. I can't do it. Much as my mum has tried to teach me, I just can't pronounce it. Kemetic I can do, and it makes sense in my mind. But, Welsh, nope. Can't do it. I know it's not required to speak Welsh to follow that path, but I just can't pronounce the words properly. They make no sense in my mind, like someone just decided to throw the letters together and see what came up and make a language that way. It confuses me greatly. OK, I'll stop hampering on the Welsh bit.


Argent

I think it's designed like that!

The only known heritage I have is Welsh. And I found that out 4 years ago, after I had been living in Wales for twice that long!

Shocked?
I was mortified.

I have also failed to learn Welsh.

A fair few Welsh people also fail to learn the language properly, especially in the bigger cities.

They all watch Eastenders when they should be watching Pobol y Cwm on S4C. (that's a joke for anyone living in Wales!)

So, I am part Welsh.

Is that my path?

No, of course not.
Like you I can't get my head round it. And anyhow, I have very little feeling of being Welsh as I did not know it for so long.

I have got used to it, I quite like it now.

But still, my path is something totally original.
Call it a cross between hedge witch and Chaos magician and that would be a bit of the truth.

When you havn't got any heritage you are allowed to make it up :D

[Elderbush]

Ah, Moon Flower, you put that much better than I did! Thank you.

[argento_occhi]

I think it's designed like that!

The only known heritage I have is Welsh. And I found that out 4 years ago, after I had been living in Wales for twice that long!

Shocked?
I was mortified.

I have also failed to learn Welsh.

A fair few Welsh people also fail to learn the language properly, especially in the bigger cities.

They all watch Eastenders when they should be watching Pobol y Cwm on S4C. (that's a joke for anyone living in Wales!)

So, I am part Welsh.

Is that my path?

No, of course not.
Like you I can't get my head round it. And anyhow, I have very little feeling of being Welsh as I did not know it for so long.

I have got used to it, I quite like it now.

But still, my path is something totally original.
Call it a cross between hedge witch and Chaos magician and that would be a bit of the truth.

When you havn't got any heritage you are allowed to make it up :D

hehe, thanks for that, I did get a bit ranty when I posted that. I think I just needed to get it all off my chest. I feel much better now. :) I had heard something about them just starting to teach Welsh in school cos no one can speak it. I don't know why, but I find that hilarious. :)

Argent

[Xander67]

I can see your point T-Rex, for me it was the opposite... I mean I was brought up in a christian home never even being taught about my jewish roots... I always knew I was jewish but everytime I asked my Grandma about it she would tell me "You arent jewish" Probably because of something she waw during wwII... (She married outside the Jewish Faith)

When I was a kid, I would go visit my Cousins in Philly, and they would take me to the Jewish Museum, and to the independence hall... (my jewish side of the family)

in 92, when I was workihg in the hospital, one of the ladies at the lunch table brought up the topic of ancestry, so I told her about my unknown Jewish heritage... then she invited me to Shabatt (at Beth Yeshua in philly) for me it was just perfect, at the time, I could still be christian and learn about my jewish roots......

My grandma didnt like that... my sister was joking about it...... but ...

Back to the topic........ Just because you have a heritage does not mean you are drawn to it...
I was never "Drawn" but I did decide to learn about it and decide it was for me...

you dont have to feel pressured into it...

[aluokaloo]

Ugh! What a creepazoid! He's got issues, that poor person. Whoever it was I feel really sorry that they had to run into such a pompous little ass like that! While I was reading that my jaw dropped! Wonder what he would think of me? I don't worship a single deity when it comes to the old Gods of my ancestors. Hmm, I wonder who the phillipinos Gods really were? Besides not all asatru are like that. He sounded like a big bratty two year old! This is my toy, and thats yours! Mine ine mine mine!

[aluokaloo]

Nope, wasn't just you! COuld you imagine what a hay day they'd have with those of us that draw from many paths?! If I were to follow their beliefs I'd be Asatru, or Celtic, Slavic, and what did they practice in France? Nah on them!


Maybe we should meet this person and watch his face just for laughs! :awilly:

[kissesree]

and to think I thunk I was a jerk! what a crock! Ancestry dosent decide anything but some surface features, unless you want it to, and even then..... dang some people make me sick!

[shantia]

If what this person said was true then Christianity should have stayed in Nazareth..........

[Moon Flower]

If what this person said was true then Christianity should have stayed in Nazareth..........

It should have! ;)

[Agaliha]

Soooo true. Same thing with other religions-- Hinduism, Buddhism....

[Caelia RavenWolf]

Well I'm glad to know it wasn't just me. Thanks for the comments.

And thank you, Caelia RavenWolf for the links. Now that I know the name "SLAVIANSTVO" I might be able to find more (I was just looking up Slavic Paganism) :)

No problem, I hope you find something useful :)

[LyraDragonStar]

That 1st replier WAS a jerk. I totally agree with what you all said. Heck, if we all followed in the steps of our ansectors..we'd all be just the same, and where's the sense in that?

[Elderbush]

A quick question that has bothered me since this thread began. Do you think the members of American Indian tribes are jerks for not allowing in anybody who asks? With the different tribes, heritage matters, so does living the culture. Their culture is interconnected with their religions, inseparately.

Why are members of other groups, such as Asatru, jerks if they point out that their heritage, culture and religion are intertwined?

[Greybird]

Hopefully the Asatruar here will forgive me for this bit. I'm not Asatru, although I've read a good bit about it. Hopefully I'm remembering this right - remember, I'm a second-hand source.

The Asatru stance is a bit more complicated than 'posession' of gods or 'racial purity'. There is a strong belief in the role of ancestors as a connection with the divine. They believe that your ancestors tie you directly to their gods, so if you have Nordic ancestry, you have a connection to the Nordic gods.

Some points of this included that children born were the reincarnation of their ancestors, although a form or reincarnation in which they were actually part of the soul of the ancestor, and part new soul, while the remainder of the ancestor's soul remained in other places, providing a connection to the 'beyond', sort of like roots into divinity. A family was part 'new life' and part 'ancestral spirits' at the same time.

The religion uses this connection of one's spirit (which is, remember, part here and part with the ancestor's gods) for the core of its function. It taps into these 'roots into the divine' to connect to the divine. The belief is that this connection of one's soul to one's gods is absolutely vital to the worship of those deities. The belief is that if you don't have a link to the divine, through bits of ancestral soul residing with them, then you can't connect to them.

Lots of people have taken this an excuse for intolerance or prejudice. It isn't. An Asatruar believes that having ancestors who followed their gods is important to the practice of their religion, but most don't deny that others can follow it as well - they'll just have a harder time of it. At the same time - and here's a key as to why it isn't intolerance or prejudice - a person with this belief also believes that they themselves wouldn't be qualified to follow another culture's religion. An Asatruar believes both that non-nords aren't well qualified to follow their religion, and that they themselves aren't well qualified to follow anyone else's. It goes both ways.

Unfortunately, some people are completely incapable of explaining this without coming across as a superior, intollerant jackass (like the poster in the original quote), while others have jumped on it as a validation for hatred, which is obviously a misinterpretation of the belief.

It doesn't have any more to do with intolerance than Catholics requiring baptism for communion, or traditional covens requiring initiation for full membership. The Asatruar just happen to have a similar requirement that can't be passed on to new members except through blood ancestry.

[Agaliha]

Thanks for explaining that, GreyBird. I wasn't aware of the "politics" of Asatru...but now it makes sense.
Still that poster should have gone about it a different way-- like explain it like you did or post some links. It did sound superior and rude [blah blah is YOUR god blah blah is MINE :wtf:] Especially to someone who is looking for help, you know? It wasn't the anctual beliefs that annoyed me, it was that attitude. Asatru may work for some, but there might be those out there that aren't of that heritage that feel the call of the Gods. It just seemed like disrespect of the original poster.
Asatru covers Germanic pantheons too right? I wonder what they'd say about me-- 1/4 German :hrmm:

[argento_occhi]

Yeah, see Greybird's post didn't make me want to scream. There was no need for that attitude with the first guy. It wasn't called for. I think it may have been the attidude I was reacting to before. Thanks for clearing that up, Greybird. I wasn't aware of that about Asatru before.

Argent