to the wiccans who are in covens...

[StormVixen]

on another forum ( http://www.pagan-network.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15341 (http://www.pagan-network.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15341) ) there is a thread about the need for wiccans to join a coven, someone said how "coven wicca" and "solitary wicca" are different things. im gunna atempt doing a poll so i can visualise peoples views...

[Alpandia]

Prefacing this with the fact that this is my own humble opinion ;)

I think that coven practice and solitary practice can be very similar. However, there are some differences. When you work with a coven, you have a "built in" set of like-minded (typically!) people to bounce ideas of of and learn from and with. With a coven, you share energy, and are able to work magick differently. The group workings do seem, to me at least, to give a higher focus to what you're working on, and imbibe it with more power. You also have elders you can go to with specific questions, and there's typically a structure in place that helps you keep your focus and not get caught up in everything that you can possibly learn - there's a path, and you walk the path a step at a time.

That's not to say that you can't do some spectacular things as a solitary - it just takes a little bit more of your own effort and focus to achieve them sometimes. And it's not that you can't find like-minded people as a solitary, but it's sometimes harder to get to the same page. I found when I was solitary, I had to deal with more fluff-heads than serious folks, and that was really frustrating.

The thing about solitary practice is that you are free to do what you want, when you want to, without any repercussions from the coven. There's more of an order to things when you work with covens - some call it politics, others call it elder respect. IE: as a student, for the time you're a student before initiation you may be prohibited from engaging in magickal workings.

I enjoyed my time as a solitary. I was a solitary for over 12 years. But I've also loved the past 3 years that I've been working with my coven. It's like working magick with your family - there's a closeness that really lets you open up and free yourself, losing yourself in the moment, and really treading that path towards the divine that lives inside you.

There are some people who can reach that sense of freedom and oneness by themselves. I always felt like I was floundering around in a sea of books and more books and contradictory information, and joining the coven really helped me hone my focus. I was always dabbling in information - learning a bit about tarot, learning some more about candle workings, etc. I never really got focused enough for long enough on any one thing to really get it down. But classes with the coven helped me to limit my focus to specific subjects at a time, so the information didn't get lost in the stream of babble. I've also learned much more about myself in the last 3 years than I think I've learned in my entire life. Coven life is not for everyone, but if you find a good coven, there are some great rewards involved. But then, solitary practice, if you are able to focus and actually *DO* the workings, can be just as rewarding.

[StormVixen]

thanx! are there really any "secets" that havent been published? because i know covens sometimes tell members there not alowed to discuss what goes on in the coven... im not asking what the "secrets" are i just wanna know if there actually are "secrets"...

[Morgandria]

There are indeed many covens with oathbound material - "secrets" that non-initiates and non-members may not know. They're not called Mysteries for nothing.

[StormVixen]

cool...

[Ben Gruagach]

Keep in mind though that many of the "secrets" that are kept in covens are not necessarily things you can't find out for yourself, or things that are not published or available elsewhere.

Most often the secrets that covens keep are regarding things like who their members are, specific ways they do things, sometimes even the specific names they use for the God and Goddess in their rituals.

A secret is just something they are not sharing openly with outsiders. It doesn't mean the actual info is unknown or unavailable outside the group though.

[Jenett]

They are differnet, but they're different in the ways making music by yourself and with others is different: there's a lot of potential commonalities. However, there's also stuff you need to know (or be willing to learn) if you want to do group work that just isn't relevant if you're working solitary. (If you're working on your own, you don't need to learn how to help energy flow around a group, you don't need to learn how to fit the parts you do into circle into the parts other people do. You don't need to learn some of that give and take.) There's definitely stuff that's easier to do solitary, because there's a tighter focus.

As far as secrets: yep, got them.

Some of them are about things like confidentiality. Some is not spreading stuff in circle (people's vulnerabilities, worries, etc.) outside without their permission.

But there's parts of our tradition I've never seen in a written source (and I'm reasonably well-read). There are parts I've seen very similar things to in a written source, but not quite the same, or there's a twist there, and you couldn't reliably construct what we do and how from the written sources.

There's also stuff like... we have an astral temple. We don't talk about what that looks like, or how you get there, exactly, except with people past a certain stage of training. (It is part of our pre-Initiate training though.) People who aren't part of the group don't need the keys to get into private space, and really, they probably don't care a whole lot about the specific description.

We, however, want to feel some security that people won't come tramping through without permission. (Plus, some stuff's just private: how many of your friends, if you're out of college, know what your bedroom looks like? Some friends, maybe, but not all your work colleagues, right?)

[bbnflpn]

i really wouldnt know, i never practiced solitary. i even before i was in a coven i did only public rituals. i was always to shy to do something on my own.

[LyraDragonStar]

I think they are different. In my opinion, it depends on your path of choice. Certain paths determine different things about how you preform and do everything that you do.

[Ivy Artemisia]

In my experience (read: IMHO), they are very much different.

In a coven, you have more than just a bunch on likeminded people working together; you have a synergy that happens once everyone is part of the group mind. If you are in a successful group, you'll know what I'm talking about. It's an interesting sort of energy that is more than just the sun of the energy that everyone brings to the table. This synergy also has nothing to do with numbers... 3, 5, 9, 13... its really an interesting experience. There is a downside to it, as well. Once your energies are interlocked, what one witch does can affect the coven. Spell backlash, etc. This is yet another reason perfect love and trust are so key when working in a group.

Its not to say that solitary work should be discounted. Solitary work is great... you don't have to worry about the good of the group, you only have to worry about yourself and the way that you want to practice. You can be more mutable in your practices, and have a lot of freedom in the way you celebrate your holidays. And you can work awesome energy workings if you have the focus and internal energy to do so. :)

Both options are great, though they are VERY different, at least in my experience.

Also, yes covens DO have secrets... but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are all the same. We have some rituals that are extremely secret... but they might not be the same sort of ritual that is a secret in another coven.

If you are interested in what the group mind is- or at least what *I* feel it is, and why its important, send me an email and I'll send you a copy of a post that is part of our new dedicant guidebook.

[DebLipp]

Well, I chose "other," because I'm halfway between "totally different" and "similar." Clearly, there are commonalities, but they are not the same. I mean, the same Gods (often), the same quarters, the same tools...so "totally different" doesn't cut it.

But they are different in so many ways! Is making love with a partner different from masturbation? You betcha! But they're both sex and they're both great.

Logistically, there are things that groups can't do that solitaries can't do. Like harmonize, for example. Or work blindfolded (with someone available to see). Or all sorts of things.

Psychically, there are ways that energies work in groups that don't happen solitary.

Keep in mind that not every group is an initiatory Mystery group. There are groups that call themselves covens that don't have secrets, but us oldster British Traditional Wiccans (Gardnerians, Alexandrians, and the like) certainly have 'em.

[Rainmoon_mist]

I also chose other. I am in a coven with a family member/friend and a best friend and that is it.

I have known them each for almost a decade. We have a synergy that goes beyond a shared spirituality- though it is intensified by just that. So...I think we are really lucky. We celebrate the Sabbats together but we are also completely available to celebrate Esbats and everyday spirituality separate.

We all do not feel like we need one another to complete our spirituality- but merely to share it and come together to celebrate the glorious Goddess!

[Enlightenment1]

I think they're very different from each other and for lots of different reason. The main one being how different the Energy would be between the two. Then, of course, you have more elaborate Rituals in a Coven as they can be much more complexed with more people (not necessarily any better, just more complexed). Not to mention you're sharing the Magick with other people in a Coven, where as solitaries experience it on their own (hopefully with the Goddesses and Gods involved too).

I vote very different!

I like being a solitary, but that's just me :) I'm not into lots of rules and I like to structure things the way I like LOL, and I think if there was anymore Energy added to my workings, etc. everything would explode :hehehehe:

[Lunacie]

Wow... thread necromancy strikes again! I've seen worse though, it's only been a couple of years since the last post.

Hm, I haven't seen StormVixen around for awhile... (checks and it's been over 2 months ago), wonder where's been hanging out since it's not around here?

I voted "similar but not the same."

[Enlightenment1]

Wow... thread necromancy strikes again! I've seen worse though, it's only been a couple of years since the last post.

Hm, I haven't seen StormVixen around for awhile... (checks and it's been over 2 months ago), wonder where's been hanging out since it's not around here?

I voted "similar but not the same."

:hehehehe: It always seems to be me too :abanana:

[Lunacie]

:hehehehe: It always seem to be me too :abanana:

Hey, ya never know. Sometimes a resurrected thread will take on new life with all the folks that weren't members here the first time it was posted, and sometimes it just dies all over again. :lol: Sometimes it's fun to find out which it will be.


edited typo

[Enlightenment1]

Hey, ya never know. Sometimes a resurrected thread will take on new life with all the folks that weren't members here the first time it was posted, and sometimes it just dies all over again. :lol: Sometimes it's fund to find out which it will be.

Well that's true!

Funny thing is I didn't even realise this one was so old until you said LOL 8O I don't even know how I found it.

[Tigerlily]

Instead of making a post, I thought I'll ask here:

When working with a coven can you also do your own solitary work? Like morning prayers or private rituals if a family member dies, personal spell, etc?

[Enlightenment1]

Instead of making a post, I thought I'll ask here:

When working with a coven can you also do your own solitary work? Like morning prayers or private rituals if a family member dies, personal spell, etc?

Oh yes, of course!

[Lunacie]

Absolutely. In fact, it's usually encouraged. A coven often works with just one pair of dieties, so in your solitary practice you can honor your special connection with other dieties.

Most of my spell work is "on the wing" and done by myself. Our group energy has been going to the health of the group members and to building group connections rather than doing spells per se.

[Ambertree]

in my group we practice alone as with the group

[Lunacie]

in my group we practice alone as with the group

Is that because it's what you're most familiar with? Or because that's the tradition and dogma in that group? I would not belong to any group that put any limits on what I do in my own personal practices.

[Astara Seague]

I will answer for her since she is in my group, we do not limit their personal practice
I think what she meant is we practice as a group yes .... but we also practice on our own as well and as we please

[Lunacie]

So what Ambertree actually meant to say was, "in my group we practice alone as well as with the group"? That makes sense then. Thanks for the clarification.

[Astara Seague]

no prob :)

[Rasari]

As it has been explained to me by Lineaged Wiccan Initiates. Both those who currently practice in coven or those who have left coven practice or Wicca entirely:

Coven practice is very different from solitary practice in that much of Wicca's rituals and practice are based on the concept of a communal practice. Meaning, group practice. Making some things difficult or unrealistic to do alone. ( A solitary Wiccan, incidentally, is an initiate who has left coven practice. Not a non-initiate.) And as previously mentioned, they don't practice ONLY in group. Coven practice is supplemented by personal, private practice and study. Also, coven members are not limited to the teachings of their coven, they just can not change the lineaged BoS and core teachings (though suppossedly they can ADD to it). As a result, some have two. Their copy of the Coven BoS and their personal BoS.

The majority of the core of the religion ( oath bound material) has not been published.

The mysteries are somewhat separate in nature from oath bound material in that the mysteries are experiential in nature, not something that can be described adequately to those who haven't experienced them. So while it is part of the oath bound core of the religion, its not so much a secret as it is impossible to adequately convey to a non-initiate who hasn't experienced them.

Even the few I've spoken with who have left the religion entirely, hold to their oaths. And did not leave on poor terms.

They generally tend to agree that coven is a second family of sorts. That it is a group environment where they are able to learn, develop and share. That communal practice is beneficial to their spiritual development and workings.

Personal opinion:

I'm going to go with the word of the various initiates I know. I've had these points contested before, but so far only by individuals who are not initiates... Or are initiates of non-lineaged Traditions or covens who have proclaimed themselves to be Wicca.

Thus, its really rather ridiculous to assume those who haven't been initiated into a lineaged Wicca coven can definitively decide that you can learn all of Wicca through books or experience the same mysteries outside of guided communal practice.

My over all opinion of communal practice (not just in Wicca) is that, with the right people, it can be an exceptional and productive experience and environment for spiritual and personal development.

However, I'd feel a core foundation for a group's success would be honesty in ability, experience and even nomenclature. For someone who is seeking Traditional Wicca, being initiated into a coven claiming to be such, that isnt, is likely to upset the student on discovering they've been lied to, for example. Or realizing foundation claims, experiences and credentials of an individual running a group has fabricated it is likely to instill resentment and distrust in the individual AND the group and practice they claim to represent.

So in looking for a group or creating a group... I think one should be skeptical, use caution and CHECK any claims made. The pagan community, unfortunately, has far too many frauds, hacks and predators. If they claim lineage, ask to verify it. If they claim to have been trained by some famous occultist, teacher or author: ask for verification or better yet, ask the individual in question. So on and So forth.


I'm going to stop rambling now... :smileroll

[Lunacie]

Personal opinion:

I'm going to go with the word of the various initiates I know. I've had these points contested before, but so far only by individuals who are not initiates... Or are initiates of non-lineaged Traditions or covens who have proclaimed themselves to be Wicca.

Thus, its really rather ridiculous to assume those who haven't been initiated into a lineaged Wicca coven can definitively decide that you can learn all of Wicca through books or experience the same mysteries outside of guided communal practice.

My over all opinion of communal practice (not just in Wicca) is that, with the right people, it can be an exceptional and productive experience and environment for spiritual and personal development.

However, I'd feel a core foundation for a group's success would be honesty in ability, experience and even nomenclature. For someone who is seeking Traditional Wicca, being initiated into a coven claiming to be such, that isnt, is likely to upset the student on discovering they've been lied to, for example. Or realizing foundation claims, experiences and credentials of an individual running a group has fabricated it is likely to instill resentment and distrust in the individual AND the group and practice they claim to represent.

So in looking for a group or creating a group... I think one should be skeptical, use caution and CHECK any claims made. The pagan community, unfortunately, has far too many frauds, hacks and predators. If they claim lineage, ask to verify it. If they claim to have been trained by some famous occultist, teacher or author: ask for verification or better yet, ask the individual in question. So on and So forth.


I'm going to stop rambling now... :smileroll

I don't want to revisit the whole Initiatory vs Non-Initiatory argument, that would be futile. But I do want to say in MY Personal Opinion that there is more than One True Way for Wicca, and Initiatory Traditions is just one of the ways.

Of course if the only authority in this question that is accepted is of those who follow Initiatory Traditions, then they will naturally say that theirs is the only True Wicca. To use an old comparison, that's like saying only women who have given birth should be allowed to call themselves "Mother", which is absurd since many women adopt or become step-mothers and develop a real relationship with their children.

But I do agree that if someone claims lineage, they should be able to back that up, and if they can't move on because who wants to work with a liar.

[Rasari]

However, Wicca was created to be a mystery based, initiatory religion by its founder. Thats how it was created, thats how it is practiced and thats what its beliefs and practices are geared toward.

And if one has not been initiated, how are they to know if what they are following and believing is actually Wicca since they only have access to a limited portion of the religion?

Are they honestly following Wicca? OR are they following their own personal path as INSPIRED OR BASED ON Wicca?

It would be the latter. Wicca is a structured, specific religion. Not what ever one makes of it.

And while it is slowly changing and developing from WITHIN. It is not subjective to changes those that are not following the religion want to make to it.

So there is a substantial difference between Wicca and Wicca based eclecticism.

And claiming otherwise is more along the lines of claiming I want to be a Catholic Bishop without actually following Catholic practice and belief and without being ordained.

[Nox_Mortus]

However, Wicca was created to be a mystery based, initiatory religion by its founder. Thats how it was created, thats how it is practiced and thats what its beliefs and practices are geared toward.

And if one has not been initiated, how are they to know if what they are following and believing is actually Wicca since they only have access to a limited portion of the religion?

Are they honestly following Wicca? OR are they following their own personal path as INSPIRED OR BASED ON Wicca?

It would be the latter. Wicca is a structured, specific religion. Not what ever one makes of it.

And while it is slowly changing and developing from WITHIN. It is not subjective to changes those that are not following the religion want to make to it.

So there is a substantial difference between Wicca and Wicca based eclecticism.

And claiming otherwise is more along the lines of claiming I want to be a Catholic Bishop without actually following Catholic practice and belief and without being ordained.

I pretty much agree with this, however, Given that about 75% of the original "secret" material has been published, I think one could do a pretty good job of following the original version of Wicca without bieing initiated. I do agree with there being a big difference between Wicca and Wicca based eclecticism though.

[Ben Gruagach]

However, Wicca was created to be a mystery based, initiatory religion by its founder. Thats how it was created, thats how it is practiced and thats what its beliefs and practices are geared toward.

And if one has not been initiated, how are they to know if what they are following and believing is actually Wicca since they only have access to a limited portion of the religion?

Are they honestly following Wicca? OR are they following their own personal path as INSPIRED OR BASED ON Wicca?

It would be the latter. Wicca is a structured, specific religion. Not what ever one makes of it.

And while it is slowly changing and developing from WITHIN. It is not subjective to changes those that are not following the religion want to make to it.

So there is a substantial difference between Wicca and Wicca based eclecticism.

And claiming otherwise is more along the lines of claiming I want to be a Catholic Bishop without actually following Catholic practice and belief and without being ordained.

I'm not so confident about these assumptions regarding what the intent of the founder (Gerald Gardner) was. The more history I read about Gardner and those who were involved in the early days of Gardner's Wicca, and the more of Gardner's actual words I read and reread, the less confident I am that he intended his to be the One True Way.

Gardner undermined himself repeatedly if it really was his intention for his Wicca to be the authoritative form.

[Rasari]

I pretty much agree with this, however, Given that about 75% of the original "secret" material has been published, I think one could do a pretty good job of following the original version of Wicca without bieing initiated. I do agree with there being a big difference between Wicca and Wicca based eclecticism though.

Are you an initiate willing to break oath in order to prove that about 75% has been published?

All the initiates I've spoken with so far vehemently deny that point.

[Rasari]

I'm not so confident about these assumptions regarding what the intent of the founder (Gerald Gardner) was. The more history I read about Gardner and those who were involved in the early days of Gardner's Wicca, and the more of Gardner's actual words I read and reread, the less confident I am that he intended his to be the One True Way.

Gardner undermined himself repeatedly if it really was his intention for his Wicca to be the authoritative form.

Given his background and the sources he used as influence in creating the religion and the form he gave it... I'd say it makes perfect sense that he intended it to be a mystery based, initiatory religion.

Did he mean for HIS original tradition (Gardnerian) it to be the one true way? No, I doubt that. Since he accepted Alexander's new Tradition as Wicca.

However, Alexandrian, like others that followed (alegard, McFarland Dianic ect)... Are lineaged, initiatory, mystery-based Traditions.

Outsiders of a religion can not really decide how a mystery based, initiatory religion should grow and develop. Those changes occur within the religion, not outside of it.

And extreme changes change the actual religion. Thus an extremely different form shouldn't be called Wicca. Just as Christianity is not Judaism. It grew out of Judaism, shares some of the same beliefs and materials. Judaism is its root...
But that does not make it Judaism and it should not be referred to as such.

Similarly, just because someone's path is based off of Wicca's non-initiatory material would not make one Wicca.

[Nox_Mortus]

Are you an initiate willing to break oath in order to prove that about 75% has been published?

All the initiates I've spoken with so far vehemently deny that point.


I'm not going to break any oaths, and I'm not surprised that people will deny that it has in order to better protect thier "secrets" but I am telling you as an initiate that a lot of oath bound material is freely available either on the internet or in books, this includes a huge chunk of the basic Gardnerian BoS that has been validated by Doreen Valiente amongst other people.

[Lunacie]

I agree. Gardner himself published quite a bit of info on his religion, and a lot of his writings have been published or posted on the internet as well. And then there are the others who studied with Gardner and then published or were interviewed. Looking at those sources I believe there is very little of Wicca that is still a true secret available only to initiates.

It is just as clear to me that there are some Initiatory Wiccans who will never agree with me, and I'm not going to waste any effort on trying to convince them that I'm right, just I will ignore any efforts by them to convince me that they are right.

[Nox_Mortus]

I do have to say though, that a lot of oathbound material is either coven or liniage specific, and some covens regard that as almost the only oathbound material since most of the other stuff has been published at some point, which would make some initiates correct in that the oathbound material is unpublished.

[Ben Gruagach]

Are you an initiate willing to break oath in order to prove that about 75% has been published?

All the initiates I've spoken with so far vehemently deny that point.

Perfect catch-22 dilemma there. And it doesn't help answer anything really either.

[ffetcher]

I'm not going to break any oaths either. However, I've studied with several groups over the years, and although I no longer set a lot of store by 'lineage', nowadays preferring a good, unlineaged teacher to a poor lineaged one, some have been 'lineaged' groups. Apart from specifics like names and tokens, I've rarely encountered anything that wasn't available if you knew where to look.

Does that mean that most of the oathbound material has been published - well, it depends on what you call 'oathbound'. If you consider it to be the coven or lineage secrets, then nope, names, tokens and suchlike often aren't. If you mean 'could I reverse-engineer the ritual context from material on the web and on my bookshelf?', my own experience is that this is pretty much the case - the vast majority of that is available to anyone.

Did Gardner intend his Wicca to be an initiiatory, mystery religion? Yes. But the 'mysteries' are a small proportion of the whole system. Did he intend it to be the 'One True Way'? Almost certainly not. He changed and developed his system over time, accepting changes by Doreen Valiente and others, and originally accepting other similar systems. I wasn't really until the early 1960s that an argument like the one we're having here would have made any sense.

I notice that the coven vs solitary argument has pretty much fizzled. :)

blessings
ffetcher

[SoulFire]

There's a saying in the Craft (attributed to the late Gywdion Pendderwen, though I don't know if he was the first to actually say it): "Guard the secrets well; reveal them often."

[Lunacie]

I do have to say though, that a lot of oathbound material is either coven or liniage specific, and some covens regard that as almost the only oathbound material since most of the other stuff has been published at some point, which would make some initiates correct in that the oathbound material is unpublished.

Good point here. And as we've discussed in other threads, each coven has it's own autonomy and probably has things they do that are specific to that coven only. I read an early interview with Doreen Valiente where she talked about how Gardner understood that everyone would have their own ways of doing things, and as long as the basics he put together were in there somewhere it was considered to be Witchcraft or the Arte of the Wise.


I'm not going to break any oaths either. However, I've studied with several groups over the years, and although I no longer set a lot of store by 'lineage', nowadays preferring a good, unlineaged teacher to a poor lineaged one, some have been 'lineaged' groups. Apart from specifics like names and tokens, I've rarely encountered anything that wasn't available if you knew where to look.

Does that mean that most of the oathbound material has been published - well, it depends on what you call 'oathbound'. If you consider it to be the coven or lineage secrets, then nope, names, tokens and suchlike often aren't. If you mean 'could I reverse-engineer the ritual context from material on the web and on my bookshelf?', my own experience is that this is pretty much the case - the vast majority of that is available to anyone.

Did Gardner intend his Wicca to be an initiiatory, mystery religion? Yes. But the 'mysteries' are a small proportion of the whole system. Did he intend it to be the 'One True Way'? Almost certainly not. He changed and developed his system over time, accepting changes by Doreen Valiente and others, and originally accepting other similar systems. I wasn't really until the early 1960s that an argument like the one we're having here would have made any sense.

I notice that the coven vs solitary argument has pretty much fizzled. :)

blessings
ffetcher

Very well said. It's always nice to find someone who is "on the same page."

[Rasari]

I'm not going to break any oaths, and I'm not surprised that people will deny that it has in order to better protect thier "secrets" but I am telling you as an initiate that a lot of oath bound material is freely available either on the internet or in books, this includes a huge chunk of the basic Gardnerian BoS that has been validated by Doreen Valiente amongst other people.

If I recall correctly, both Valiente and the Farrars stated the published portion of the BoS only revealed some of the rituals and does not infringe upon the oathbound portions... And having read over the released portion... I don't see much of anything touching on specific teachings, beliefs or theology. Its actually rather limited in content. As to the work of Valiente and the Farrars, again only portions were published apparently without having broken oath.

And even still, the mysteries are said to be experiential and communal in nature rather than passed information. How can one learn an experiential / communal mystery through a book without communal guidance? And in which books is the information and guidance given with which to experience these same mysteries on one's own? As I've not seen it in the published BoS... And as for the Farrar's BoS material on their site, most of it is information of their own devising or creation for "Progressive Witchcraft" as published in their books. They themselves stated that after "eight sabbats for Witches" that they no longer worked as Alexandrians but began working their own system. And still, no passages regarding the mysteries. They even state they've broken no oaths as its their own material as published and placed on the shelves.

And regarding published material, Its often described to me not only as non-oath bound... But also, in some cases, even as trivial information that varies not just line to line, tradition to tradition, but even coven to coven. And is often freely discussed with me and others. But when you ask a certain question or make a certain comment... Up comes the walls and "Sorry, but I can not discuss that."

Or the names of the Lord and Lady? I've yet to see a book that claimed to provide their oathbound names... I've had them described as Lord and Lady, God and Goddess or given "Public" images such as Kernunnos for the God... But if I ask as to their names within the coven, I'm denied an answer and the discussion continues.

So... Where is the substantial oath bound material thats published? I'm only seeing a small portion of material not regarding beliefs and theology. Primarily, all I've seen thus far outside of given basic spiritual material is largely ritual content sans depth, detail or spiritual intent. And generally, all the ritual are STILL communal in nature and not presented as something particularly simple to revise to private practice while still maintaining the same goal, symbology or intent.

You're an initiate of what line and Tradition?

[Rasari]

Good point here. And as we've discussed in other threads, each coven has it's own autonomy and probably has things they do that are specific to that coven only. I read an early interview with Doreen Valiente where she talked about how Gardner understood that everyone would have their own ways of doing things, and as long as the basics he put together were in there somewhere it was considered to be Witchcraft or the Arte of the Wise.


Yes, but then we get to the point of they actually using any of his basics?

In general, its often seen that non-initiates claiming the title Wicca:

Disregard most everything other than rede and three fold.
Disregard initiation, the mysteries, communal practice, degree system and even basic training or guidance. In which case, they are disregarding or completely re-writing most of the ritual content and methods of practice and application of belief, theology and symbology.
Believe it to "be anything you want it to be" a buffet religion.
Place the Goddess above the God, rather than acknowledge polarity. OR disregard the God entirely.

Essentially, this is often largely what a "solitary" ends up working with.

At which point... Is it really Wicca? OR is it just a Wicca based / influenced eclectic practice sporting a misnomer?

That revision makes one no more a Wiccan than initiation into Wicca makes one a Mason.

[Rasari]

There's a saying in the Craft (attributed to the late Gywdion Pendderwen, though I don't know if he was the first to actually say it): "Guard the secrets well; reveal them often."

That is actually a good point. Excellent way to hide something is to do so in plain sight. As such, I DO consider that a possibility. However, I'm not going to ignore all initiates I've spoken with as liars either. Or disregard the fact that there likely is more than whats in the public eye. Which I'd hope, since often published material is severly lacking in actual spiritual content and is generally more toward a manual of practice and application.

[Ben Gruagach]

That is actually a good point. Excellent way to hide something is to do so in plain sight. As such, I DO consider that a possibility. However, I'm not going to ignore all initiates I've spoken with as liars either. Or disregard the fact that there likely is more than whats in the public eye. Which I'd hope, since often published material is severly lacking in actual spiritual content and is generally more toward a manual of practice and application.

The way I always think about it is this: one can read sheet music, but actually playing it or hearing it performed gives a real understanding.

In other words I think that the "secrets" can all be published but they won't mean much unless a person actually does the rituals and lives the religion.

Edited to add: but I also don't think that a lineaged formal initiation is required to be a Wiccan (not talking about Gardnerian or some specific denomination of course), any more than you have to be a member of the Rolling Stones to become a musician.

[Lunacie]

Yes, but then we get to the point of they actually using any of his basics?

In general, its often seen that non-initiates claiming the title Wicca:

Disregard most everything other than rede and three fold.
Disregard initiation, the mysteries, communal practice, degree system and even basic training or guidance. In which case, they are disregarding or completely re-writing most of the ritual content and methods of practice and application of belief, theology and symbology.
Believe it to "be anything you want it to be" a buffet religion.
Place the Goddess above the God, rather than acknowledge polarity. OR disregard the God entirely.

Essentially, this is often largely what a "solitary" ends up working with.

At which point... Is it really Wicca? OR is it just a Wicca based / influenced eclectic practice sporting a misnomer?

That revision makes one no more a Wiccan than initiation into Wicca makes one a Mason.

Certainly some solitiaries who claim the title of Wiccan have little of the basics of Wicca going on, but there are groups or 'covens' who aren't any better, and they are the ones who are more likely to pull newbies in, telling them that they can teach them all about Wicca. So I don't understand your emphasis here on solitary practicioners, some of which study very hard and follow the basics of Wicca as much as possible for someone who isn't in a working coven.

As far as the degree system, from my reading Gardner dubbed his initiates 1st degree when they were just beginning to study and practice with his group rather than after their 'year and a day' or after reading certain books or learning to put together a ritual or lay out an altar. Some groups do have such standards before the awarding of the 'first degree'. Again there doesn't seem to be any One True Way.

How much of the basics does it take to make one Really Truly Wiccan? That varies from person to person or group to group. I've been around the web some and have found what seems to be a concensus of what those basics are, and I know that some have additional criteria. But those other criteria generally distinguish one particular Tradition rather than Wicca as a whole.

Gardner's BoS has been published online (at least in part) and in it he names the Lord and the Lady that his group honored. Other groups may honor a different pair of dieties. From what I've read, Gardner was okay with that, the important thing is to have some connection with the elder gods, not worship a specific pairing. MHO, YMMV


All that said, I agree that someone who believes Wicca is "whatever you want it to be" doesn't really know what Wicca is - and that the best way to experience being a Wiccan is to work with a group who has some of the old knowledge but realistically speaking that isn't the only way to experience being a Wiccan.

[RainInanna]

The way I always think about it is this: one can read sheet music, but actually playing it or hearing it performed gives a real understanding.

I really like the way you put this. The Mysteries and oath-bound information isn't the sheet music, but the things that are kept secret are personal to the group, and perhaps not useful outside it anyway. I'm thinking magical names, group egregores, a group astral temple, and in general the energy, psychology, and strengths and weaknesses within the group that create the group mind and it's unique connection to the Sacred. No doubt that group mind and connection are just as deep and strong as one's individual experience with the Sacred, yet more complex and flowing, arising naturally from each part of the whole. And Lunacie, I like your explanation about the named gods - not that one set is the only right one, simply that the ones a group works with should perhaps be known only to the group as part of their private experience.

The published material is meant to give frameworks and ideas for individuals and groups to work from to create their own magic. I find this is true of anything I read that is called Wiccan - the unfortunate part is when it's taken out of context or misunderstood by those who haven't undergone the natural progression they might have within a coven or group. The fragments are given so we can use them to build our own personal practice, they can't be understood as the be all and end all, and yet they aren't useless either. They need to be fleshed out.

It gets to the extreme where people think the 101 books of one popular author are the ultimate source - ie. you get these tools, and you do those spells, and you light this many candles of this colour on that day, and poof you're Wiccan. The problem is that as much as Wicca is an orthopraxy, without the beliefs and the Sacred it's just going thru the motions, using someone else's sheet music.

[Lunacie]

Thank you for tying all that together in clear language, RainInnana. :thumbsup:

[RainInanna]

Thank you but seriously I almost deleted it because I didn't think it made any sense after I posted it. I'm glad my point came across.

[Lunacie]

Oh I absolutely get the point that most of the oathbound mysteries may be Coven or Tradition specific. Trouble is, some of those who belong to the older Trads think that theirs are the only proper mysteries or secret knowledge. Which is why I point out that some of them are doing things differently from the way Gardner's group did them. In fact, the way his group did things kept changing and evolving in just the years he was alive and leading his group. How is it realistic to think that nothing will change from group to group in the years since his death?

I'm perfectly comfortable with understanding the "framework" that Gardner put into place and if different groups want to put different siding on it or paint it different colors that's fine with me. If other groups want to furnish the inside with carpet or vinyl flooring, upholstered furniture or patio furniture, that's fine with me too. If I see someone putting the toilet and the cookstove in the living room, and the bathtub and the refrigerator in the bedroom and parking the car in the kitchen, I'm going to question whether they understand how the framework is supposed to work. I won't tell them they don't have a house, but I'll probably laugh my a$$ off when I get outside.

[DracoJesi]

Yes, but then we get to the point of they actually using any of his basics?

In general, its often seen that non-initiates claiming the title Wicca:

Disregard most everything other than rede and three fold.
Disregard initiation, the mysteries, communal practice, degree system and even basic training or guidance. In which case, they are disregarding or completely re-writing most of the ritual content and methods of practice and application of belief, theology and symbology.
Believe it to "be anything you want it to be" a buffet religion.
Place the Goddess above the God, rather than acknowledge polarity. OR disregard the God entirely.

Essentially, this is often largely what a "solitary" ends up working with.

At which point... Is it really Wicca? OR is it just a Wicca based / influenced eclectic practice sporting a misnomer?

That revision makes one no more a Wiccan than initiation into Wicca makes one a Mason.

I suppose it would be Wicca influenced and not Wicca, but what you fail to keep in mind is that not all solitaries are like this, every religion has their "posers" or "fluffs", but you can't blame the whole community for the actions of a select few, especially those who don't follow the beliefs of the religion they claim.

also, this isn't just Neo vs Traditional here, I know Tradionalists on both sides here, some say that there is enough published information to accurately follow Wicca.

some tradionalists see Neo-Wicca (as opposed to Trad) was being easily corruptable, I do not agree with this, because on the one hand you have the possability of those calling themselves Wiccan while knowing nothing about the religion, which is a problem, however, you the whole of Neo-Wicca, is not as corruptable as Trad, because of it's structure.

some would argue that Neo or Eclectic Wicca is harmful to Traditional Wicca, I don't believe so, in fact I think it's beneficial...

it can keep our numbers up, it will actually keep the religion from dying out, even before Wicca, witch-related communities have often struggled to survive, the problem has always been and even is now, if not to a lesser degree, that Covens and/or other groups are so spread out, that being able to be a part of one may not be possible for some, this limits exposure for those who are genuinely interested, I think that if it weren't for the likes of Garner and Murray, who wrote about the subject and who made it public, that it probably would have died out, or at least it would probably be very close to doing so...

and another thing, I do understand the need to be secretive, allthough I think that allot of the reasons aren't as valid to day as they used to be, of course one can argue that some countries aren't as tolerant as they used to be...

I'm not saying one should give up all their secrets, but I also don't think living in fear is the way to go, especially this day in age, and yes I know fear isn't the only reason for keeping things oathbound, but I do believe it has been one of the main reasons....

I think Neo/Eclectic Wicca, or whatever it is you prefer to call it, has done wonders for the religion in the sense that Wicca and witchcraft are more understood now by the public, and actually seen as a religion, and no, I'm not saying all of the persecution as ended, and it may never end, but at least we have made progress.

of course I think a problem is that, even if it became unnecessary and/or beneficial to release oath-bound information, who has the authority to do so?

and what about he different forms of Trad Wicca?

Gardnerian, Alexandrian? they are different but still considered Traditional...

what about Bucklands own tradition, Seax (sp) Wicca, if I'm correct it does not contain Garners oathbound information, but has the core aspects of Wicca interwoven into it's practice, andwasn't buckland choosen my Gardner himself to be the US representative of Wicca?

doesn't this prove that Gardner himself was open to different variations, that he understood the need for diversity?

it's like with many relation such as Christianity, which is the best example I can think of at the moment...

tou have Protestants,Baptists,Catholics,Mormons <-- that last one is right isn't it) but they are all Christians, they are just different variations, and I realize most of you won't argue that Neo-Wicca is Wicca, some traditionalists might though...

but if Neo-wicca is reffered to as so, then logically it would be Wicca.

you can't bend the rules for Raymond or Alex sanders and then not for anybody else, thats isn't very fair now is it?

and as for the origins of Wicca, Garner said he was initated into an existed group, the reconstruction of ancient pagan and witchcraft related practices, now weather or not you believe it started with him or not, while important isn't really relevant to the topic, and heres why...

when Wicca as a religion was created is among much debate, however, many would, as do I, say that Wicca is a modern reconstruction of many older beliefs and therefore is at it's core, eclectic, a religion founded on many spiritual princpals that were not of it's own accord, there is nothing wrong with is, but I think denying that Wicca is self is very diverse while acknowledging that is is eclectic by nature, is just a tad hypocritical dont you think?

another thing, although Wicca as a religion is relatively new, (considering the length of human existence anyway) compared to most religions, the term itself is ancient, and means 'The Wise One", "The Wise Ones" or simply, "The Wise" and was often attributed to witches,shamons,healers ect.

their are many veariations, Wica,Wicca,Wice,Wicce,ect.. the definition for the most part reamins the same,

it describes those at one with nature and seemed to be able to manipulate it or become one with it, to make their will, their though, their desire, manifest, to preform Magic(k)

to become spiritually aware and connect with the divine, and I think it was this that Gardner, or whoever applied this name to the now known religion, was trying to capture, universally.

for something to be universal, it needs to fit in with other belief systems, it must give a sense of unity, while also presenting a sense of great diverity, it must bring people closer together, as a religion it must bring one closer to the divine, while still allowing one to have their own ideas.

it must accept the need for people of various personalities and religious thoughts on deity.

I am not saying Wicca, is right for everyone, but can you honestly say that it doesn't try to be?

if you look at the history of witchcraft, no religion itself, wasn't it created to understand the world around ones self? to connect to a higher sense of being, sure not all religions are like this, but if you look back at the earliest ones, and see the need for understanding, to feel as though your simply more than flesh and blood, to capture the meaning of life, often through Diety, isn't this what Wicca is truly about?

It may be structured differently than these first religins to allow more universal compatibility but the feeling is still their, at least for me it is.

and yes, I know, I seem to be going off topic, and yes the first post wasn't really an arguement as much as a debate, but i think people of every religion often tend to forget about their roots, to understand what a religion represents, don't just look at scipture or those who have influence over it, to truly understand a religion, I belief you must live it, experience it's history, ask yourself why you believe in it, and understand how and why it was formed, and I also believe that his is even more important with Wicca, a religion without hundreds of pages of sacred texts, without 100's of rules and guidelines......it is very simple yet very diverse, very complex, and may be sometimes hard to define the whole Wiccan community with words, but this is ok, it's what Wicca is about, instead of looking at how both sides are different, you need to focus on how they are the same, how the concept applies for both, the goals, the morals, the lifestyle

with people looking into new paths, becoming more spiritually aware, I think that we are looking upon a Golden Age, not just for Wicca, but or Paganism and other religions who have generally been "set aside" if you will.

It's easy to argue the about Trad vs Neo, or whatever you prefer to call the debate itself, but I thing what the Wiccan community really needs is a sense of brother/sisterhood between the two, sure many of us get along, but we need that sense of community, we need to work together, make a positive image for the community, to teach those who are interested but may be not realize their history, we need to be their for eachother, we need to work this out, because this "Wiccan Divide" as I call it, while seemingly passive now, may eventually tear us apart to the point which the religion itself, as a whole, will suffer.

I believe that our biggest problem at the moment, lies within, and that we need to remember, the core aspects of Wicca, the foundation that all is connected, and that that connection can manifest itself in many ways, in many forms, that we are apart of it, we can affect it for better or for worse, that we have responsibility, and that no one path is the true path, because in the end, it is all one, and over the centuries man has tried to grasp this, often worshiping what makes sense to him, I'm not saying that Wicca is a Buffet religion or that that it's what you want it to be, far from it, but I do believe that is is this sense of brotherhood, this sense of unity, but also vast diversity, is what Gardner was trying to teach.

[RainInanna]

I'm going to question whether they understand how the framework is supposed to work. I won't tell them they don't have a house, but I'll probably laugh my a$$ off when I get outside.

Yes we totally agree. I don't mind if people tell them they don't have a house, but often it would be more helpful to explain to them why our framework is different. Too often they simply don't understand the mechanics of how it should work and when and why to change it so it still remains a house. And then, if we say "Nope, you're not a Wiccan" people reel and in defense refuse to listen to anything else we might have to say. A learning opportunity is lost - more importantly a chance to open up, share, and teach, is lost, all because we'd rather say we're correct and have every right to say so.

Yes I have the right to tell people they don't have a house at all, but really, isn't it more important to try to explain how I see it, rather than just offending them? Elders/teachers/mentors/those who have more knowledge or experience, IMHO, have a responsibility to do more.

[Nox_Mortus]

I suppose it would be Wicca influenced and not Wicca, but what you fail to keep in mind is that not all solitaries are like this, every religion has their "posers" or "fluffs", but you can't blame the whole community for the actions of a select few, especially those who don't follow the beliefs of the religion they claim.

also, this isn't just Neo vs Traditional here, I know Tradionalists on both sides here, some say that there is enough published information to accurately follow Wicca.

some tradionalists see Neo-Wicca (as opposed to Trad) was being easily corruptable, I do not agree with this, because on the one hand you have the possability of those calling themselves Wiccan while knowing nothing about the religion, which is a problem, however, you the whole of Neo-Wicca, is not as corruptable as Trad, because of it's structure.

some would argue that Neo or Eclectic Wicca is harmful to Traditional Wicca, I don't believe so, in fact I think it's beneficial...

it can keep our numbers up, it will actually keep the religion from dying out, even before Wicca, witch-related communities have often struggled to survive, the problem has always been and even is now, if not to a lesser degree, that Covens and/or other groups are so spread out, that being able to be a part of one may not be possible for some, this limits exposure for those who are genuinely interested, I think that if it weren't for the likes of Garner and Murray, who wrote about the subject and who made it public, that it probably would have died out, or at least it would probably be very close to doing so...

and another thing, I do understand the need to be secretive, allthough I think that allot of the reasons aren't as valid to day as they used to be, of course one can argue that some countries aren't as tolerant as they used to be...

I'm not saying one should give up all their secrets, but I also don't think living in fear is the way to go, especially this day in age, and yes I know fear isn't the only reason for keeping things oathbound, but I do believe it has been one of the main reasons....

I think Neo/Eclectic Wicca, or whatever it is you prefer to call it, has done wonders for the religion in the sense that Wicca and witchcraft are more understood now by the public, and actually seen as a religion, and no, I'm not saying all of the persecution as ended, and it may never end, but at least we have made progress.

of course I think a problem is that, even if it became unnecessary and/or beneficial to release oath-bound information, who has the authority to do so?

and what about he different forms of Trad Wicca?

Gardnerian, Alexandrian? they are different but still considered Traditional...

what about Bucklands own tradition, Seax (sp) Wicca, if I'm correct it does not contain Garners oathbound information, but has the core aspects of Wicca interwoven into it's practice, andwasn't buckland choosen my Gardner himself to be the US representative of Wicca?

doesn't this prove that Gardner himself was open to different variations, that he understood the need for diversity?

it's like with many relation such as Christianity, which is the best example I can think of at the moment...

tou have Protestants,Baptists,Catholics,Mormons <-- that last one is right isn't it) but they are all Christians, they are just different variations, and I realize most of you won't argue that Neo-Wicca is Wicca, some traditionalists might though...

but if Neo-wicca is reffered to as so, then logically it would be Wicca.

you can't bend the rules for Raymond or Alex sanders and then not for anybody else, thats isn't very fair now is it?

and as for the origins of Wicca, Garner said he was initated into an existed group, the reconstruction of ancient pagan and witchcraft related practices, now weather or not you believe it started with him or not, while important isn't really relevant to the topic, and heres why...

when Wicca as a religion was created is among much debate, however, many would, as do I, say that Wicca is a modern reconstruction of many older beliefs and therefore is at it's core, eclectic, a religion founded on many spiritual princpals that were not of it's own accord, there is nothing wrong with is, but I think denying that Wicca is self is very diverse while acknowledging that is is eclectic by nature, is just a tad hypocritical dont you think?

another thing, although Wicca as a religion is relatively new, (considering the length of human existence anyway) compared to most religions, the term itself is ancient, and means 'The Wise One", "The Wise Ones" or simply, "The Wise" and was often attributed to witches,shamons,healers ect.

their are many veariations, Wica,Wicca,Wice,Wicce,ect.. the definition for the most part reamins the same,

it describes those at one with nature and seemed to be able to manipulate it or become one with it, to make their will, their though, their desire, manifest, to preform Magic(k)

to become spiritually aware and connect with the divine, and I think it was this that Gardner, or whoever applied this name to the now known religion, was trying to capture, universally.

for something to be universal, it needs to fit in with other belief systems, it must give a sense of unity, while also presenting a sense of great diverity, it must bring people closer together, as a religion it must bring one closer to the divine, while still allowing one to have their own ideas.

it must accept the need for people of various personalities and religious thoughts on deity.

I am not saying Wicca, is right for everyone, but can you honestly say that it doesn't try to be?

if you look at the history of witchcraft, no religion itself, wasn't it created to understand the world around ones self? to connect to a higher sense of being, sure not all religions are like this, but if you look back at the earliest ones, and see the need for understanding, to feel as though your simply more than flesh and blood, to capture the meaning of life, often through Diety, isn't this what Wicca is truly about?

It may be structured differently than these first religins to allow more universal compatibility but the feeling is still their, at least for me it is.

and yes, I know, I seem to be going off topic, and yes the first post wasn't really an arguement as much as a debate, but i think people of every religion often tend to forget about their roots, to understand what a religion represents, don't just look at scipture or those who have influence over it, to truly understand a religion, I belief you must live it, experience it's history, ask yourself why you believe in it, and understand how and why it was formed, and I also believe that his is even more important with Wicca, a religion without hundreds of pages of sacred texts, without 100's of rules and guidelines......it is very simple yet very diverse, very complex, and may be sometimes hard to define the whole Wiccan community with words, but this is ok, it's what Wicca is about, instead of looking at how both sides are different, you need to focus on how they are the same, how the concept applies for both, the goals, the morals, the lifestyle

with people looking into new paths, becoming more spiritually aware, I think that we are looking upon a Golden Age, not just for Wicca, but or Paganism and other religions who have generally been "set aside" if you will.

It's easy to argue the about Trad vs Neo, or whatever you prefer to call the debate itself, but I thing what the Wiccan community really needs is a sense of brother/sisterhood between the two, sure many of us get along, but we need that sense of community, we need to work together, make a positive image for the community, to teach those who are interested but may be not realize their history, we need to be their for eachother, we need to work this out, because this "Wiccan Divide" as I call it, while seemingly passive now, may eventually tear us apart to the point which the religion itself, as a whole, will suffer.

I believe that our biggest problem at the moment, lies within, and that we need to remember, the core aspects of Wicca, the foundation that all is connected, and that that connection can manifest itself in many ways, in many forms, that we are apart of it, we can affect it for better or for worse, that we have responsibility, and that no one path is the true path, because in the end, it is all one, and over the centuries man has tried to grasp this, often worshiping what makes sense to him, I'm not saying that Wicca is a Buffet religion or that that it's what you want it to be, far from it, but I do believe that is is this sense of brotherhood, this sense of unity, but also vast diversity, is what Gardner was trying to teach.

I pretty much agree with this, in that there is a need for diversity, the problem however arises when people extend Wiccas allowance for diversity too far and turn it into a completely open religion where you can believe anything you want pretty much and still call it Wicca, theres a difference between doing things like rituals slightly differently or calling the gods by different names, and completely altering the core beleifs of the religion. I've met some "Wiccans" who for instance don't believe in magic or reincarnation, or who are monotheists, that just doesn't work in the context of Wicca.

[DracoJesi]

well, thats why I said that there are those who don't seem to understand certain core aspects, I won't argue that.

as for montheism, I can see how it could be applied to Wicca, the concept that even though the God and Godess are separate, they are also one, two parts of the divine being.

so in that sense yes, it could be seen as monotheistic, thats the beuty of it, montheism, doutheism, polytheism, pantheism, they all are present in the archtypical structure here.

[RainInanna]

I believe that's actually monolatry or monism, not monotheism. Monotheism is the belief that there is only one God - not one divided into two, just one, period. Monolatry is the worship of one god only without denying the existence of others, and monism the idea that everything is part of one "basic substance or principle as the ground of reality".

As to not believing in magic or reincarnation, I think the problem is people misunderstanding them or taking them to extremes. Not understanding how the structure is supposed to work, as Lunacie said. You might not believe in literal individual reincarnation for example, but the idea that we continue to manifest from the Sacred into human forms, like a wave is formed by H20 molecules, is it's own form of reincarnation. One might not realize you don't have to believe the former view is the only way reincarnation manifests. Or one may think they are Wiccan and don't do magic - not understanding that magic manifests in prayer and divination as much as in complicated spells.

[DracoJesi]

I believe that's actually monolatry or monism, not monotheism. Monotheism is the belief that there is only one God - not one divided into two, just one, period. Monolatry is the worship of one god only without denying the existence of others, and monism the idea that everything is part of one "basic substance or principle as the ground of reality".

As to not believing in magic or reincarnation, I think the problem is people misunderstanding them or taking them to extremes. Not understanding how the structure is supposed to work, as Lunacie said. You might not believe in literal individual reincarnation for example, but the idea that we continue to manifest from the Sacred into human forms, like a wave is formed by H20 molecules, is it's own form of reincarnation. One might not realize you don't have to believe the former view is the only way reincarnation manifests. Or one may think they are Wiccan and don't do magic - not understanding that magic manifests in prayer and divination as much as in complicated spells.

my apologies, I wasn't aware of those terms and the differenes between them

[Lunacie]

I pretty much agree with this, in that there is a need for diversity, the problem however arises when people extend Wiccas allowance for diversity too far and turn it into a completely open religion where you can believe anything you want pretty much and still call it Wicca, theres a difference between doing things like rituals slightly differently or calling the gods by different names, and completely altering the core beleifs of the religion. I've met some "Wiccans" who for instance don't believe in magic or reincarnation, or who are monotheists, that just doesn't work in the context of Wicca.

I've seen Wiccans who say they don't believe in magic, until magic is explained to them as certain elements of ritual and not just casting spells. I rarely cast spells, although I do infrequent "energy work".

Although reincarnation is a common belief among Wiccans, I don't believe it is actually part of the core framework. Can I ask what you are basing that belief on?

[Lunacie]

I believe that's actually monolatry or monism, not monotheism. Monotheism is the belief that there is only one God - not one divided into two, just one, period. Monolatry is the worship of one god only without denying the existence of others, and monism the idea that everything is part of one "basic substance or principle as the ground of reality".

As to not believing in magic or reincarnation, I think the problem is people misunderstanding them or taking them to extremes. Not understanding how the structure is supposed to work, as Lunacie said. You might not believe in literal individual reincarnation for example, but the idea that we continue to manifest from the Sacred into human forms, like a wave is formed by H20 molecules, is it's own form of reincarnation. One might not realize you don't have to believe the former view is the only way reincarnation manifests. Or one may think they are Wiccan and don't do magic - not understanding that magic manifests in prayer and divination as much as in complicated spells.

Ah, I just posted a response saying much the same thing about some folks not understanding that magic isn't only spellwork. Great minds think alike, eh.

And thank you for the explanation of the difference between monotheism, monolatry and monism. Clearly monotheism and monolatry would not work within a Wiccan framework, while monism would.

[Ben Gruagach]

I believe that's actually monolatry or monism, not monotheism. Monotheism is the belief that there is only one God - not one divided into two, just one, period. Monolatry is the worship of one god only without denying the existence of others, and monism the idea that everything is part of one "basic substance or principle as the ground of reality".


By that definition, Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. After all, they have the trinity (three beings/bodies in one God.)

[RainInanna]

By that definition, Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. After all, they have the trinity (three beings/bodies in one God.)

I don't know how they reconcile the trinity with monotheism. My thought is Jesus isn't God as far as I knew, but his son. As in Christ is God's son, given to the world, to teach his word. Not part of God, not one with God, as we see our God and Goddesses as manifestation of the Sacred. Isn't Jesus more like an emissary, a bridge between God and humans, since humans are separate from God, and Jesus was human?

But I won't argue with you since I'm no expert on it. Better for me to defer to the folks who are Christian and have done the research.

[Nox_Mortus]

I believe that's actually monolatry or monism, not monotheism. Monotheism is the belief that there is only one God - not one divided into two, just one, period. Monolatry is the worship of one god only without denying the existence of others, and monism the idea that everything is part of one "basic substance or principle as the ground of reality".

As to not believing in magic or reincarnation, I think the problem is people misunderstanding them or taking them to extremes. Not understanding how the structure is supposed to work, as Lunacie said. You might not believe in literal individual reincarnation for example, but the idea that we continue to manifest from the Sacred into human forms, like a wave is formed by H20 molecules, is it's own form of reincarnation. One might not realize you don't have to believe the former view is the only way reincarnation manifests. Or one may think they are Wiccan and don't do magic - not understanding that magic manifests in prayer and divination as much as in complicated spells.

yeah I was reffering to strict monotheism, as for reincarnation, Wicca has a pretty strict definition of that, which is litteral individual reincarnation, I don't have a problem with the other per se, but it doesn't really fit into the Wiccan idea of reincarnation as I or a lot of other traditionalists and non-new agers understand it, I do agree with the point on magic though, since casting a circle and invoking the gods are magical acts (and key to Wicca, I've never met any serious Wiccan that disagrees with this).



Although reincarnation is a common belief among Wiccans, I don't believe it is actually part of the core framework. Can I ask what you are basing that belief on?

It was a key part of Gardners teachings, Death and Rebirth is a major part of Wicca and according to Gardner and people in his covens that have written about Wicca reincarnation is a part of that, so therefor I would have to say that it is a key part of the Wiccan framework.

By that definition, Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. After all, they have the trinity (three beings/bodies in one God.)

not all Christians believe in the idea of the trinity, and even then theres still ultimately only one god, the Trinity is sort of a bizzare concept.

[DracoJesi]

By that definition, Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. After all, they have the trinity (three beings/bodies in one God.)

oh snapz Xd... I completely forgot about that, so either either monotheism by my definition does work or Christianity isn't really monotheistic?

[Jeremy Westenn]

Coven practice and solitary practice are very similiar but it's the practice of the coven and solitary that is differen't. Not necessarily the religious and ritual practice...

But aren't you more likely to go to your Yoga class when your friend goes with you? Having other people around make it fun, entertaining, social, and energizes you to do those things.

To be honest I can't remeber the last time I casted a circle. It's something I would like to do better about.

On a side note: Don't rail against people for not being in covens or practicing in a group setting. I live in Kansas. KANSAS. If I wanted to find a coven or a practitioner I'd have to drive at least an hour away and I just can't afford that with gas these days.

- Jeremy

[Lunacie]

I hear that. I live in Kansas too, and the members of my Grove are pretty spread out. One poor gal has to drive almost an hour to get to my house for classes, about 45 minutes to get to another home for ritual. It would only be a 30 minute drive for me to the home where we gather for ritual, but I swing around and pick up some of the others along the way.

I thought it would be better when I moved to a larger metropolitan area than when I lived in the boonies, but if someone lives in a suburb on one side of the city and a coven-mate lives in a suburb on the other side of the city - you can still rack up some travel miles.

[Dawa Lhamo]

lol. I drive an hour *into* Kansas for many ritual occasions. ^_^ Anywhere in the Midwest, really, you're going to have to do some driving unless you're really lucky. We're just more spread out here. ^_^

[Lunacie]

You could drive on down here but I guess a 3-hour drive would be quite a stretch for you, eh Dawa? ;)

[jetpiston]

I must be the luckiest boy in the world! When I first started training with my Coven I had to drive nearly two whole miles to get there! Then the HP and HPS moved and all of a sudden I had to walk all the way next door! Of course, I do live in Louisville, KY, where, it is said, you can't swing a black cat without hitting a witch.

It's even worse now, though. We circle at my house, which cuts down on my driving time but really increases the time an energy spent cleaning and getting the house ready for guests!

[Dawa Lhamo]

Of course, I do live in Louisville, KY, where, it is said, you can't swing a black cat without hitting a witch.Yeah, well, Louisville is kind of a singularity. ^_^ You could drive on down here but I guess a 3-hour drive would be quite a stretch for you, eh Dawa? Depends on how often, honestly. ^_^ I drive to St. Louis on occasion for Sabbats. That's between 4 and 5 hours. ^_^ Of course, I don't make it to all of them (darned working on Saturdays), but the most frequent that would be would be once every six weeks. I try to get slightly more local than that, usually. ^_^

[Lunacie]

Yeah, well, Louisville is kind of a singularity. ^_^Depends on how often, honestly. ^_^ I drive to St. Louis on occasion for Sabbats. That's between 4 and 5 hours. ^_^ Of course, I don't make it to all of them (darned working on Saturdays), but the most frequent that would be would be once every six weeks. I try to get slightly more local than that, usually. ^_^

4 or 5 hours!?! Wow! That must be a really awesome group. Unless you're driving to St. Louis for some other reason.

Do you have a local group you work with on a regular basis? I really missed it when my first group broke apart. Even if I'd been willing to work and circle with my ex and his mistress, they became much more traditional than I appreciate.

My Grove went through a major upheaval a year ago and I stepped in as leader. Earlier this month one of our probabionary members got her feelings hurt because we weren't going along with all her "suggestions" and she left in a snit and convinced three of the other members that we're evil and lazy and they would be better off doing things her way. I wish them well but expect that they will eventually see just how toxic she is when she's not getting her way.

So my Grove is currently down to 6 members and there will be one new person joining us in May. If you're ever heading down this way you are more than welcome to join us. I'd love to be able to put a face and a voice with your screen presence.

[Dawa Lhamo]

4 or 5 hours!?! Wow! That must be a really awesome group. Unless you're driving to St. Louis for some other reason.

Do you have a local group you work with on a regular basis? I really missed it when my first group broke apart. Even if I'd been willing to work and circle with my ex and his mistress, they became much more traditional than I appreciate.

My Grove went through a major upheaval a year ago and I stepped in as leader. Earlier this month one of our probabionary members got her feelings hurt because we weren't going along with all her "suggestions" and she left in a snit and convinced three of the other members that we're evil and lazy and they would be better off doing things her way. I wish them well but expect that they will eventually see just how toxic she is when she's not getting her way.

So my Grove is currently down to 6 members and there will be one new person joining us in May. If you're ever heading down this way you are more than welcome to join us. I'd love to be able to put a face and a voice with your screen presence.lol, well, they're (literally blood) family, so it's easier. I've been visiting in with a local group (my godfather's group) here. And, of course, getting involved with Camp Gaea and the Heartland festival, which isn't coven work really, but it's community work. I'd love to come visit sometime, though. I haven't done much venturing into Kansas besides Leavenworth County, to tell the truth.

[Lunacie]

lol, well, they're (literally blood) family, so it's easier. I've been visiting in with a local group (my godfather's group) here. And, of course, getting involved with Camp Gaea and the Heartland festival, which isn't coven work really, but it's community work. I'd love to come visit sometime, though. I haven't done much venturing into Kansas besides Leavenworth County, to tell the truth.


That would be great. :uhhuhuh: Send me a PM when you have time to visit this part of the state and I'll send you my cell phone number and driving directions.

I haven't been to Gaia in more than a dozen years. And never during Heartland Spirit Fest - I'm not good with crowds like that. And the all night drumming and partying keeps me from sleeping (I have hyper-acusis) and then I get cranky from lack of sleep so not much fun. But it was awesome to camp there between festivals. Hm, I guess it's been quite a while since I went shopping at Aquarius either. Maybe this summer my daughter and I can take the girls camping... and shopping. :hahugh:

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

On the topic of travel time....I live in Hamilton, which as you may or may not know, is split by an escarpment into the downtown and uptown (which is referred to as 'up on the Mountain'). About a year ago, I moved from the mountain to downtown. Shortly after that, our local WCC High Priestess moved to a house about ten minutes' walk away from where I used to live, someone else moved to about twenty minutes' walk, and someone else will soon be moving to the same area. It's kind of weird :P

We also went from having class and ritual in a building downtown (which would have been terribly convenient for me) to a place in the east end which is a 40-minute bus ride if you're lucky and is pretty much right across the street from a place I used to live at while we were having class and ritual downtown. Argh!

[Ben Gruagach]

On the topic of travel time....I live in Hamilton, which as you may or may not know, is split by an escarpment into the downtown and uptown (which is referred to as 'up on the Mountain'). About a year ago, I moved from the mountain to downtown. Shortly after that, our local WCC High Priestess moved to a house about ten minutes' walk away from where I used to live, someone else moved to about twenty minutes' walk, and someone else will soon be moving to the same area. It's kind of weird :P

We also went from having class and ritual in a building downtown (which would have been terribly convenient for me) to a place in the east end which is a 40-minute bus ride if you're lucky and is pretty much right across the street from a place I used to live at while we were having class and ritual downtown. Argh!

Does your WCC group ever do "field trips"? Tiffany Falls and Webster's Falls are just two of the many great conservation areas in the Hamilton area. (I absolutely LOVED going to Webster's Falls when we lived in the area years ago.)

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Does your WCC group ever do "field trips"? Tiffany Falls and Webster's Falls are just two of the many great conservation areas in the Hamilton area. (I absolutely LOVED going to Webster's Falls when we lived in the area years ago.)

Well, it's never happened in all the years I've been around. Webster's Falls is a lovely place....hmm...