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View Full Version : Hybrid House cats/ For a bigger house cat.



Exloration_La
August 14th, 2005, 09:16 PM
I think these cats look soo cool. Like miniature leopards etc. Most of these particularly the bengal cat, and "American Bobtails"

The "savannah cat" looks the best IMO Weigh about 20 pounds or so, but less accepted in some parts becuae of thier supper exotic look.

http://www.savannahcatbreed.com/ (http://www.savannahcatbreed.com/)

http://www.angelfire.com/alt/sublimesavannahs/ (http://www.angelfire.com/alt/sublimesavannahs/)

http://www.majestichillsbengals.com/gallery.html (http://www.majestichillsbengals.com/gallery.html)

http://www.bengal-cat.com/ (http://www.bengal-cat.com/)

http://www.bengalcat.net/history.htm (http://www.bengalcat.net/history.htm)

http://attitudeacres1.homestead.com/ (http://attitudeacres1.homestead.com/)


lol for real though they don't attack people. I mean were not talking about a cheetah here or something like that, even in the wild the 100% African Servals which are used with Domestic cats to breed the Savannah only hunt things like mice and rabbits and small stuff like that, they get pretty big but the Savannahs are from what I have heard nothing but friendly and very playful. I guess the second u even take only 25% of the wild cat out of it it makes a huge change. I have seen quit a few vids though of one breeder who has a Serval which is 100% wild and it plays with his kids and dogs and stuff just fine, just like anything else it depends on how u treat them thats all. I mean if u start hitting him and stuff then yeah u might get :Owned

The quest for the wild-looking cat (or 'Living Room Leopard') has not ended with the California Spangle, Egyptian Mau, Ocicat or Bengal. The American Lynx is a Bobcat hybrid with a wild appearance and tame temperament. Another Bobcat hybrid, the American Bobtail is frequently found in colourpointed varieties as Bobcat males apparently prefer Siamese queens, although some authorities suggest that the Bobtail originated from a mating between a Himalayan and a short-tailed moggy. Some authorities suggest that it is a Manx-like mutation (tail mutations are surprisingly common in cats) and during 1993, breeder advertisements changed from 'Bobcat-hybrids' to 'Bobcat-lookalikes'.

Despite a high-profile launch, the California Spangled remains uncommon. The Bengal is one of a handful of cats developed using a wild cat species from which the desired pattern was 'imported'. Other hybrids include the Savannah, Chausie, Eurochaus and possibly the PixieBob, a bobtailed, polydactylous cat with possible Bobcat ancestry. The Bombay resembles a miniature black panther, but is a Burmese in a black coat.

MsFireHaven
August 14th, 2005, 11:00 PM
very pretty

Gracecat
August 14th, 2005, 11:12 PM
Very pretty, but extremely distressful to exploit wild animals for personal asthetics. It doesn't matter if they aren't big enough or aggressive enough to stalk and hurt people.

Without even getting into the hybrid genetics, or the ethics, the amount of strays sitting in animal shelters should be enough incentive to condemn needless breeding.

Flar's Freyja
August 14th, 2005, 11:37 PM
Very pretty, but extremely distressful to exploit wild animals for personal asthetics. It doesn't matter if they aren't big enough or aggressive enough to stalk and hurt people.

Without even getting into the hybrid genetics, or the ethics, the amount of strays sitting in animal shelters should be enough incentive to condemn needless breeding.

......or the number in my house & that have come through my house over the years :ugh:

Unfortunately, many with money to spend on a pet and have the most to give don't rescue animals from shelters. They buy $3,000 pets.

RowanMegaera
August 14th, 2005, 11:40 PM
Why oh why would I need a $3,000 big kitty cat when my freebie left behind kitty is 22lbs?

farm girl
August 14th, 2005, 11:50 PM
Bengals have had a splurge of popularity which usually leads to irresponsible breeding of any breed. Irresponsible breeding produces animals who aren't good pets and end up in shelters. I have heard about quite a few unadoptable Bengals in shelters. A shame, since shelters are already filled cats. I went to PetSmart yesterday and saw about 6 cats in the Love A Pet Center that I wanted to bring home with me. They had a HUGE orange cat there who could out-eat Garfield.

Kaija
August 15th, 2005, 12:24 AM
The last stray I took in was a bengel.. she was very tall for a housecat.. the sweetest cat I've ever seen.. very smart.. however, one of the downfalls of these cats.. even the females mark their territory.. Now, with her.. it was pretty much once per room.. unless she didn't like you.. (then it was every day.. eek.. my roomates clothes smelled horrid) .. I agree with the others, they are getting too popular for their own good.. when you start finding them as strays.. no microchip...no way to find an owner it's a bit too easy to get them.

Flar's Freyja
August 15th, 2005, 12:27 AM
Why oh why would I need a $3,000 big kitty cat when my freebie left behind kitty is 22lbs?

OMG is that a kitty or a rug? :nonono:

Groucho and Buddy are both around 20 lbs.

RowanMegaera
August 15th, 2005, 12:34 AM
OMG is that a kitty or a rug? :nonono:

Groucho and Buddy are both around 20 lbs.

He thinks he's a dog. He greets all visitors at the door and jumps up on them. He's so big that he likes to reach up and hook his paws into one's pants pockets and try to pull one down to pay attention to him.

Flar's Freyja
August 15th, 2005, 12:38 AM
He thinks he's a dog. He greets all visitors at the door and jumps up on them. He's so big that he likes to reach up and hook his paws into one's pants pockets and try to pull one down to pay attention to him.

Oh, that's so funny......my son has called Buddy "the dog" by accident more than once. He does that with his paws, too - on our butts!

StarCraftLia
August 15th, 2005, 06:34 AM
w

Pol
August 15th, 2005, 04:45 PM
I'm not sure why it's wrong to exploit an animal for aesthetics.
I can understand other ethical issues, but people have always exploited animals for their aesthetic properties.

Shanti
August 15th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Edited cause my point didnt work cause my emotions are running to high to think logically.

Gracecat
August 15th, 2005, 06:38 PM
I can't stop what we did years ago. True, the domestics we have now have eventually trickled down to us from wild animals but that doesn't give us the excuse to continue.

Pedigreed breeding and hybrid breeding, pardon the pun, are two different animals.

And Shanti, have you ever considered what those breeders are in it for? The hybrid "champion" quality animals possibly go to good homes. Though I doubt it, the cat breeders I know kept their cattery animals in kennels their entire life. The "pet qualities" are sold for a hundred bucks if the animal is lucky and goes to a good home or flat out killed at birth because they aren't good enough.

Gracecat
August 15th, 2005, 06:43 PM
And we don't necessarily have to reintroduce a wild animal into the domestic stock to keep it going. The bloodlines for pedigreed is secure enough that except for the hybrids, we no longer have to maintain exotic stock to maintain them.

Bottom line, it's exploitation. And exploitation is wrong.

Isil Darkmoon
August 15th, 2005, 06:57 PM
A lot of domestics we have now started this way!!
The true red factor domestic canary was a domestic canary/wild bird hybrid.
Many dogs have domestic/wild in their lines.
Humans have been doing these things ever since we domesticated the first animal!
Dogs, cats, birds, started out this way and then when they wanted a new breed...wild blood was often used.

Why is ok that the pets we have right now may have came from this sort of breeding but because this is a recent, man made breed, its wrong? Should we do as PETA and stop breeding all domestics till they are gone?

All domestics didnt start out as domestics!! All domestics are man made from taking from the wild.

Heck what about pedigrees? They were inbred to get those perfections. You cant keep a German Shepard line pure in its beginning by breeding it to other breeds. They had to inbreed to get the breed started!

Only wolfdogs and basenjis have any wild blood in their lines in any point in history in any of our lifetimes. Domestic dogs haven't had wild blood in the lines for generations upon generations, except when its' intentionally put back in. The average dog you meet on the street, any given dog at the local shelter, will NOT have any wild blood in it.

And don't you DARE compare me to PETA just because I find the practice unethical. There's a difference in hybrids that could occour naturally--wolves and dogs can and will interbreed naturally--and synthetics *forced* into breeding at someone's whim, simply for the money.

Not only would dogs and wolves interbreed in the wild, they actually have the CHANCE to meet in the wild. A serval woulld almost never encounter a domestic housecat in the wild, and on the very rare chance the encounter did occour, the odds are that the serval would kill the housecat as prey, not mate with it. Llikewise if you leave a mixed pasture of donkeys and horses, you're pretty likely to get some mules in the offspring, as wlel as pure donkeys and pure horses.

Savannahs are actually cruel to breed if it's the queen that's the housecat and the tom the serval. That's like breeding a boxer to a toy poodle. And because of some strange twist of genetics in the two, a male serval/female housecat produces litters well, while reversing the genders is often hit or miss.

Plus, it's an *unneeded* cross. We have wild patterns now in the ocicat, and size genes in breeds like the maine coon cat. Why not work with what's there, instead of outcrossing? Because it doesn't bring as big a pricetag, because "exotic" is a status symbol among people with more money than sense.

I DO respect *ethical* breeders of purebreds, as unfortunately small a percentage of breeders as that is. I can see paying a decent amount for a top of the line animal to either show or breed for quality. These, the average owner can really do neither with. Savannahs aren't a recognised breed in most cat circles--they can't be shown. And the average owner would never breed these guys true, because finding a mate of the same species is far too difficult. And letting a Savannah cross with the neighborhood moggy doesn't do a damn thing to refining the breed.


I dont think there are to many people who would shell out 3k for a cat and not take good care of it!!!

More of the cheap/free cats are abused than a cat costing 3K!!
And you'd be REMARKABLY suprised how wrong you are here.

Among today's headlines are that Paris Hilton dumped the notorious $10,000 Tinkerbelle on her mother and refused to care for the animal or have anything to do with it anymore... WHY? Because the dog *gasp* GREW OVER FOUR POUNDS. So she's now bought a NEW chihauaha for even more, that's even smaller--onme she'll undoubtedly dump if it "overgrows" as well. She can afford it, but that's not good care.

At my local shelter, we take in as many purebreds as mixes, both cats and dogs, any given day. And just as many of the abuse cases are purebreds as not. This data does only refer to *owned* animals--siezed, dumped, or turned in. It's true that more mixed *strays* than pure strays are abused, but that's simply because there are more of them. For owned animals, the numbers are disturbingly balanced, though.

The kind of person that would buy one of these overpriced animals, just so they can say they have something Special and Rare... they have unusually skewed expectations.

They're the kind of people who expect puppies to be housebroken from the day they come home, who declaw cats just to save their $7000 couch then throw it outside when it gets up on the counter once, who assume a dog already knows its commands and manners just because it's a Purebred. They expect animals they pay top dollar for to be 'perfect' or 'better' somehow than 'normal mongrels', and when they're disappoointed to find that even their lazhabishadoodlepoo is going to wet the rug if left home alone for 8 hour days at 2 months, they often discard the animals in disgust. The people that can afford to get these animals, can also generaly afford to get rid of them without much financial hardship.

Shanti
August 15th, 2005, 07:25 PM
I didnt compare anyone to PETA..I asked a question.

I just get confused. People have cats and let them outside..let them make babies and its ok. I see right here the..'my cats got hurt outside' threads. The..'see all my baby kittys' threads.
There are so many unwanted cats...cats on the streets..there are far more everyday cats...not cared for as they should be and thats ok. Letting them have babies when there are tons of cats all over that could use a good home. But this exotic thing isnt?

Personally...I say no breeding should be going on anywhere till all the cats and dogs waiting for homes are adopted, but thats just not practical.

Just because these are wild hybreds..its bad. But susie somebody has new kittys when there are cats dying and being left to die all over the place is ok...congrats on the new babies! Or joe blow has a hurt cat from the neighbors dog and poor joe blow.

I say susie...why the heck didnt you keep boy from meeting girl until they were fixed? Joe blow...keep it safe!! Keep it contained.

Dont breed any!!

Sorry for it all. I am just trying to see through every perspective out there to figure out why one this is not ok when another is ok and they both have one thing in common...people's desires and misused animals!

I dont know...confusion is a prob today.

I still havent figured out why anyone would pay 80 dollars on a pair of jeans when they can get jeans for 15-25 dollars?
But thats a differant brain drain.

Choro's Mom
August 15th, 2005, 08:30 PM
They were inbred to get those perfections. You cant keep a German Shepard line pure in its beginning by breeding it to other breeds. They had to inbreed to get the breed started!

No, actually, "they" didn't. Von Stepanitz, the founder of the German Shepherd Dog breed, selected dogs from the German shepherds' dogs which fit what he thought was a desirable type. Earlier in the 20th century, "outcrossing" was common to bring in traits from other breeds; after five generations, the get could again be registered with the AKC as "purebred."

While many breeds were created by crossing existing breeds (e.g., Dobes, Boston Terriers), there are many ancient breeds that were fixed in type by breeding only dogs that conformed to that type, without crossing in other existing breeds. For example, Mastiffs have been around since Roman times ("Cry, 'Havoc!' and let slip the dogs of war!")

The Canaani (Canaan Dog) was not "derived" from a combination of other breeds. Depictions of the dog that came to be called the Canaani can be found in drawings from ancient Israel. When Prof. Rudolfina Menzel set out to establish the breed, she did not combine other breeds; she selected dogs of the desired type from existing feral packs.

When I lived at Sha'ar Hagai 20 years ago, very few of our dogs were more than three generations from the wild. Did we "know" they were "purebred" Canaanis? Not really but they bred true, and that is the test of a purebred.

Choro's Mom
August 15th, 2005, 08:40 PM
I wrote this regarding dog breeding, and PeTA's demand that ALL breeding cease, some years back, but it can easily be applied to cat breeding as well:

Here's the biological reality: stop breeding for four years and you may compromise the gene pool beyond recovery.

Stop breeding for seven or eight years, and you will do away with dogs. ALL dogs. FOREVER.

The window for breeding a bitch is very limited, if one is breeding responsibly. A bitch cannot be bred before the age of two, and from the Breeding Board discussion of the subject, it seems most responsible breeders prefer to wait until the bitch is three or four. Six is too old for a first litter, and eight is the upper limit for breeding.

So demanding an end to breeding for four years means that the two-year-old bitch who represents the culmination of a 20-year breeding program will be lost to the bloodline.

Demanding a six-year halt to breeding will WIPE OUT quality purebreds. COMPLETELY.

Is that the desired goal? I certainly hope not!!

The blanket cry of "No more breeding!" is a cry of frustration and pain; it's not a logical or reasonable solution to the problem. What is needed is NOT a global "no breeding"; what is needed is to curtail this type of breeding:

1. Random-bred dogs. Little Fluffy does not need a litter to be fulfilled. Spot will not miss his "manhood," no matter what the manufacturers of Neuticles try to tell you. (And hey, you can always buy their product if it bothers you that much.) If you want the kids to see puppies being born, rent a video. I recommend ANNOUNCING THE MIRACLE OF BIRTH VIDEO TAPE ( http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/video.html) (http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/video.html)) . You will not get one "just like her" by breeding Fluffy. You will probably not get one ANYTHING like her. That's the point with random breeding; you don't know what you're producing.

2. Deliberate Cross-breds. Thing-a-poos. Rott/Pit crosses bred by dope dealers trying to produce vicious animals. "But I wanted to see what they'd look like" litters.

3. Mediocre Purebreds. The only thing AKC papers prove (assuming the breeder was honest) is that both parents were AKC registered dogs of that breed. It says nothing about health or whether they were good representatives of their breed.

4. Physically or Temperamentally Unsound Dogs. There are, unfortunately, way too many show breeders who breed just because a dog is winning in the ring, without regard to squirrly temperaments and hidden health problems. Who will stud a male to anyone who pays the fee, without regard to the bitch's health or temperament. I know several personally. They make me ill.

A workable solution needs to do more than end pet overpopulation. Destroying all the dogs in the country would accomplish that. I sincerely hope no one advocates THAT as a solution! A workable solution seeks to end the slaughter of companion animals while not eliminating their existence altogether.

Shanti
August 15th, 2005, 08:45 PM
Ok....I wasnt meaning everything literally!!! I was showing perspective of people in general that will say this exotic cat breeding is wrong even though they say congrats to people breeding regular cats when there are thousands of them dieing everyday!!

I am against this crap too...and against letting fido and fluffy have kids when the local shelter is killing them everyday!!

Heck I am against exotics!! They dont belong with people.

I started the thread...'why the heck do they allow exotics?'

I have an exotic from the authorities because of a dam pet store they shut down and no one had room or wanted the darn Sulcata. It doesnt belong here..it doesnt belong even in this darn country but they are being bred down south for the pet industry!! The only reason the one I have was illegal cause the store was selling it when it was too small...had to be 4 inches, he was 1 1/2 inches. Dam Sulcatas get 100 pounds and huge...what the hell are they doing using them as pets? If I could I would send it to its native land!! Sulcata tortoises dont loose their instincts.....yet.

People are breeding these cats because they really think its ok....people are letting common fluffy have kittens cause they think its ok. The people allowing common fluffy to breed are saying these people with the hybrids are wrong....

What the hell is the differance....all these cats..exotic and common are paying an awful price for peoples desires!

None of it should be happening.

How can there be congrats to the new common kittys when this is so wrong? Common kitties are dying...adopt them...fix them...keep the sexes seperate till they are fixed. Accidents only happen when they are not prevented!

I'm sorry..I am just really upset at so many kittens being born..ending up dying if they are not really, really lucky. I am pre-occupied...I need to just go get over it. We just recently had a person trying so so hard to save some kitties and she came under some flaming cause she couldnt afford them but she had to try. Someone had to care. I have been there too. And in the same time line many kittens are being congrats on and I wonder if all of them will live full lives and if they will all get fixed before more are made. Even I have said congrats to new kitten threads,,,wondering if they will be ok or not. Theres just so many...so many kittens being born every second. SO many dying every second.

Isil Darkmoon
August 16th, 2005, 12:48 AM
Ok....I wasnt meaning everything literally!!! I was showing perspective of people in general that will say this exotic cat breeding is wrong even though they say congrats to people breeding regular cats when there are thousands of them dieing everyday!!

I am against this crap too...and against letting fido and fluffy have kids when the local shelter is killing them everyday!!

Heck I am against exotics!! They dont belong with people.

I started the thread...'why the heck do they allow exotics?'

I have an exotic from the authorities because of a dam pet store they shut down and no one had room or wanted the darn Sulcata. It doesnt belong here..it doesnt belong even in this darn country but they are being bred down south for the pet industry!! The only reason the one I have was illegal cause the store was selling it when it was too small...had to be 4 inches, he was 1 1/2 inches. Dam Sulcatas get 100 pounds and huge...what the hell are they doing using them as pets? If I could I would send it to its native land!! Sulcata tortoises dont loose their instincts.....yet.

People are breeding these cats because they really think its ok....people are letting common fluffy have kittens cause they think its ok. The people allowing common fluffy to breed are saying these people with the hybrids are wrong....

What the hell is the differance....all these cats..exotic and common are paying an awful price for peoples desires!

None of it should be happening.

How can there be congrats to the new common kittys when this is so wrong? Common kitties are dying...adopt them...fix them...keep the sexes seperate till they are fixed. Accidents only happen when they are not prevented!

I'm sorry..I am just really upset at so many kittens being born..ending up dying if they are not really, really lucky. I am pre-occupied...I need to just go get over it. We just recently had a person trying so so hard to save some kitties and she came under some flaming cause she couldnt afford them but she had to try. Someone had to care. I have been there too. And in the same time line many kittens are being congrats on and I wonder if all of them will live full lives and if they will all get fixed before more are made. Even I have said congrats to new kitten threads,,,wondering if they will be ok or not. Theres just so many...so many kittens being born every second. SO many dying every second.


Shanti,

Here, I completely agree with you. I also disagree completely with random breedings. However, I'm not one of the "Mittens has to have babiezzz!" types. I'm just as against reckless or careless breeding of non-purebreds and non-hybrids.

All of my indoor-only critters, by the way, are fixed--and I've helped friends pay for spay/neuter for their animals, as well as handed out extensive amoutns of info on low-cost spay/neuter clinics in the area, worked at local adoptathons, fundraising events, fostered litters, handraised litters, and do other work at my shelter.

That's part of why this bothers me SO much--if we can't EVEN keep a handle on normal, domestic, run-of-the-mill animals, WHY add to the problem by creating *new* breeds to overpopulate shelters with--breeds that are not yet stable and often do require more care and a lot more energy than longtime-domesticated species because they do retain a lot of their wild isntincts. If we can't deal with all the Fluffys and Fidos of the world, why in the world are we adding Simbas to the mix?

Additionally, I protest so loudly simply because I feel helpless. "Normal" cats and dogs, I can do something about. I can work, as I do, and I can actually make a difference to the problem. But exotic breeds are generally so specialized and scattered (yet do affect 'mundane' pets) that there's very little I personally can do about it. So I quietly work where I can with domestics, and throw a fit of temper about hybrids because I feel so powerless to touch that problem.

Shanti
August 16th, 2005, 04:41 AM
Isil...maybe you hit it on the head for me...helpless. I am burned out. Between the horrid ordeal with mom cat and kits and then this summer...I have a unwanted rabbit I took in, another call I got last week from a lady that was looking for someone to take her 8 week old bunny (she bought it and never got permission from her landlord, ..so stupid and now the landlord is pissed, duh!) and I just found a home for one dove that was in awful shape when I got it. And I dont even want to think about this summer and all the pets that crossed my path. I think I am burned out and actually angry at the stupidity of to many people.

I am angry, burned out and tired.

I agree...adding exotics doesnt help...hence my poor Sulcata tortoise that should be in africa! Grrrrr.

But good news!! Massachusetts made some good laws!

CANINE/FELINE HYBRIDS:

Wolf-dog hybrids or other hybrids between domestic dogs and any wild canine species, or any feline animal which is a hybrid between a domestic cat and any wild feline species, are not domestic animals and may not be maintained, propagated, imported, bought, sold, or otherwise possessed in Massachusetts unless the animal was in the owner's possession on or before January 1, 1994, and registered with MassWildlife no later than July 31, 1994 (M.G.L. Ch. 131, 77A) (http://www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/131-77A.htm) Certain recognized breeds of show or pet cats, which are known to be or reputed to be of hybrid origin, are considered to be domestic and may be lawfully possessed.

The Savannah cat, which is a hybrid of the African Serval and domestic cat, is not a recognized domestic breed and therefore is not lawful to possess.

Link for Massachusetts government exotic pet laws
(http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/dfwpets.htm)