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Velderia
August 16th, 2005, 12:10 AM
Well, first, let me introduce myself...

I'm 15 now. Although, I tend to wander through Wicca/Witchcraft/etc. websites and books, I'm originally a mormon. I was baptised around the age of 8.

Though, I didn't really consider myself a mormon, or, at least I called myself a Christian, or basically a follower of Jesus.

As I got older, I pretty much got myself away from the church. Now I never step foot in it, unless if I'm helping with my dad cleaning the church, which happens rarely.

Even though I went pretty far away from the church, I still clung to some of the most important Biblical teachings, believed in one God, and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, (and Buddha, which seem to be parallel to Jesus's teachings. :foh: )
I tend to be open-minded about other religions, and think God tolerates them to a extent. Not everyone can agree on one subject, so that's why there's so many religions. Maybe God was expecting that.
Even the polythestic ones. Maybe God appears to others in different forms, or pagans worship different personalities of one God.

Now I find myself browsing through other religions and some elements from them. I read some things on Astrology for a while, though it kind of died out a bit, but I do believe that modern Astrology does work generally.
Also, I have two Llewellyn books. I bought one magical almanac a few years ago, (not sure where it is now but I have it somewhere) and yesterday, I bought the 2006 Herbal Almanac.
Also, I've browsed through the Pagan/Wiccan section on About.com.

I'm mostly interested in the herbal and meditative part of the religion. The idea of covens also sounds interesting, (not sure if I'd join one but it's interesting anyway). I also think, (well, depends on the person I suppose and the branch of Christianity), that, at the very least, a Christian can apply some elements of Wicca to Christianity, or their own individual beliefs, in a sense. At least the use of herbs, or maybe energies. Something like that. I'm still getting to know it. Maybe I'm confused on the subject. It makes me want to review my original beliefs.

Thoughts? Comments?

fire_and_moonlight
August 16th, 2005, 12:15 AM
hmmm. a very interesting path story. but i have to say that your path and your beliefs are your own. which way or which combination of ways is your own decision. i wish you the best of luck! Blessed Be!

Agaliha
August 16th, 2005, 12:28 AM
MW is a great place to find help and info.

There are two Christian Pagan/Witchcraft classes here:
http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=89 (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=89)
http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=175 (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=175)

And there are TONS of threads about things--- you only have to search :)
And here are lots of helpful people here.

:)

Rayzer
August 16th, 2005, 08:54 AM
some advice that I got from blessed feathers is Read and take notes. Everyone will have different opinions and some may be biased but that's how we humans are. Read books and websites. Your library should have a bunch of books on wicca so that you don't have to buy a bunch because at 15+$ each that would be very costly.EDITED 2 ADD: you might also find some thing at http://www.witchvox.com (http://www.witchvox.com)

Velderia
August 16th, 2005, 12:57 PM
Thanks to all who posted. :)

Sun Sprite
August 16th, 2005, 01:06 PM
Best wishes on chooseing the path or combination of paths for you.

As for me, I consider myself to follow a combination of the Wiccan/Buddist path while remembering the Christian teachings in the Bible, not the ways many you call themselves Christians choose to live.

I have enjoyed comeing to this site.

Best wishes.

LordHelmet
August 16th, 2005, 04:29 PM
I myself am a pagan/christian in some ways although the christian is fading into something like gnostic/buddist something.

I would agree that wiccans and any pagans do look to different aspects of the divine. Idealy God would be the divine, however for myself and many others we see this differently, the God in the bible is written as male, and contrary to what some rumors or something thats in the original translation.

It's impossible I would think for us as finite beings to communicate directly with infinity, something has to be made finite an order to have charectiristics. Thus deitys all symbolyze different aspects of the divine (or whatever you call it) so as to create something we can communicate with and ask for help.

There's a book I highly suggest to any pagans who have a strong bent in the direction of judeo christian beliefs. 'Modern Magick' by Donald Michael Kraig. This would in very much depth cover an aspect of paganism and Jeudaism in which they are vare well combined. Modern Magick doesn't get into Herbalism at all but it teaches meditation very well.

If you find yourself feeling like christianity is full of holes and the bible makes too much sense to at times not make any sense, and you feel like youwant to get to the bottom of it, I suggest you look into the direction of the gnostics a little, (don't bother trying to get gnostic bibles or biblical texts, they're very poorly translated in my experience)

Another good book for understanding the idea of God is 'The History of God'.

dark witch
August 17th, 2005, 05:28 AM
Firstly, I must say that any path one chooses is fine as long as it works for them. That said, I've always had a belief that Christians who become "Christian witches" or "Christian Pagans" (which has just got to be an oxymoron) are keeping the Christian aspect as a kind of spiritual safety net. Paganism is as different from Christianity as Judaism is. Witchcraft is definitely an offshoot of Paganism. Pagans and witches were killed in the name of Christianity, as the Christians tried their best to stamp out Paganism. I've never understood how Christianity and Paganism/witchcraft/Wicca could possibly fit together. But again, to each their own!

Dark Witch

Ninjakitten
August 17th, 2005, 02:14 PM
When you're looking into blending the paths, in this case look at the things that Christ was reported to have done in the Gospels. Many of the things that are considered miracles were done in ways that would suggest using earthly and ritualistic magic as opposed to Divine power (miracles). Example: Jesus spit into the dirt and smeared the mud onto the eyes of a blind man, and told the blind man to wash it off only in a sacred river (I forget which one, but I think it was the one Jesus was baptised in). When the blind man did this, he was able to see. There were other things that showed he dad Divine authority, like the whole water to wine thing (kind of hard to do with just magic) and resurrecting Lazarus, but he did also use magic, showing us that there is a power we can tap into and use.

It's a shame that througout the centuries, "Christians" listened to Paul and his intolerant Pharasee attitudes rather than to Jesus himself. Jesus never would have condoned the things done in his name and acted much more "Pagan" than Christians give him credit for, and it's because the Christian church felt threatened by people empowering themselves with gifts Godde left on earth for them. Then again, the Christians were slaughtered by Pagans and Jews a lot after Christ's death, and we see crushed and oppressed cultures backlash throughout history when they are finally given an ounce of power. That's not a justification in this case any more than when the Germans did the same thing in WWII after their defeat in WWI.

I incorporate Wiccan practices into my Christian walk. I'm not a Christian Wiccan, though I am a witch. The difference? The way I understand it, a Christian Wiccan is a Wiccan that incorporates the Christian pantheon (as you study more, you'll see how it can be interpreted as a pantheon, including a Goddess) into his/her workings, and tends to use the Gnostic works as a primary source. A Christian witch is, well, just about everyone else. A Christian that uses witchcraft (a general term not necessarily implying the use of Wicca).

LordHelmet
August 17th, 2005, 03:25 PM
When you're looking into blending the paths, in this case look at the things that Christ was reported to have done in the Gospels. Many of the things that are considered miracles were done in ways that would suggest using earthly and ritualistic magic as opposed to Divine power (miracles). Example: Jesus spit into the dirt and smeared the mud onto the eyes of a blind man, and told the blind man to wash it off only in a sacred river (I forget which one, but I think it was the one Jesus was baptised in). When the blind man did this, he was able to see. There were other things that showed he dad Divine authority, like the whole water to wine thing (kind of hard to do with just magic) and resurrecting Lazarus, but he did also use magic, showing us that there is a power we can tap into and use.

It's a shame that througout the centuries, "Christians" listened to Paul and his intolerant Pharasee attitudes rather than to Jesus himself. Jesus never would have condoned the things done in his name and acted much more "Pagan" than Christians give him credit for, and it's because the Christian church felt threatened by people empowering themselves with gifts Godde left on earth for them. Then again, the Christians were slaughtered by Pagans and Jews a lot after Christ's death, and we see crushed and oppressed cultures backlash throughout history when they are finally given an ounce of power. That's not a justification in this case any more than when the Germans did the same thing in WWII after their defeat in WWI.

I incorporate Wiccan practices into my Christian walk. I'm not a Christian Wiccan, though I am a witch. The difference? The way I understand it, a Christian Wiccan is a Wiccan that incorporates the Christian pantheon (as you study more, you'll see how it can be interpreted as a pantheon, including a Goddess) into his/her workings, and tends to use the Gnostic works as a primary source. A Christian witch is, well, just about everyone else. A Christian that uses witchcraft (a general term not necessarily implying the use of Wicca).

from another forum:


1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual things, my brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 You know that when you were heathens, you went to dumb idols, according as you were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus. And no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are diversities of ministries. but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.
1Co 12:8 To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit:
1Co 12:9 To another, faith in the same spirit: to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit:
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles: to another, prophecy: to another, the discerning of spirits: to another, diverse kinds of tongues: to another, interpretation of speeches.
1Co 12:11 But all these things, one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body: So also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.
1Co 12:14 For the body also is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot should say: Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the Body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear should say: Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now God hath set the members, every one of them, in the body as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body?
1Co 12:20 But now there are many members indeed, yet one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help. Nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Yea, much, more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body are more necessary
1Co 12:23 And such as we think to be the less houourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour: and those that are our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour.
1Co 12:25 That there might be no schism in the body: but the members might be mutually careful one for another.
1Co 12:26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
1Co 12:30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.


All this is said by paul in a letter to a church in coranth(spelling), I wish people would stop trying to divide up between goodguy and villin to explain the things in the bible that don't fit with other more encouraging or useful parts. I'ts all been twisted for 2 thousand years. If you read it with an open mind I think that you will realize there was no one teacher that screwed it up. Paul would never have accepted the things that have been done in the name of christianity, neither would any of the original apostles, and I think neither would have the pharasees, who are now villinized for being exactly the dogmatic hypocrites as the churches that vilinized them.

Some people I've meet go the opposite direction saying that Jesus wasn't real but was mythological, based on the Osiris-Dynosios group, not without reason I might add. Sometimes (not usualy) their excuse is that Jesus was the bad guy?!? It's not just Paul though, and it's not just the old testament, it's not all Josiahs fault or Samuels fault or Adams fault. It's Eves fault because she tempted man!!! :uhhuhuh:

In the end what christians need to realize is that every writing in the bible, just like everything else in the library, is just human writings. (Also it's very old, from a different culture with different values) If you want to know how to live your life look in your heart, not in a book. In fact if anyone really needs to have the bible tell them how to think, there's quite a few places where people are advised to use their head or heart, in different words. One of which is by that Paul guy.

Hope I didn't offend anyone, didn't mean to be attacking anyone. :meanface:

Ninjakitten
August 17th, 2005, 05:25 PM
from another forum:


All this is said by paul in a letter to a church in coranth(spelling), I wish people would stop trying to divide up between goodguy and villin to explain the things in the bible that don't fit with other more encouraging or useful parts. I'ts all been twisted for 2 thousand years. If you read it with an open mind I think that you will realize there was no one teacher that screwed it up. Paul would never have accepted the things that have been done in the name of christianity, neither would any of the original apostles, and I think neither would have the pharasees, who are now villinized for being exactly the dogmatic hypocrites as the churches that vilinized them.

Some people I've meet go the opposite direction saying that Jesus wasn't real but was mythological, based on the Osiris-Dynosios group, not without reason I might add. Sometimes (not usualy) their excuse is that Jesus was the bad guy?!? It's not just Paul though, and it's not just the old testament, it's not all Josiahs fault or Samuels fault or Adams fault. It's Eves fault because she tempted man!!! :uhhuhuh:

In the end what christians need to realize is that every writing in the bible, just like everything else in the library, is just human writings. (Also it's very old, from a different culture with different values) If you want to know how to live your life look in your heart, not in a book. In fact if anyone really needs to have the bible tell them how to think, there's quite a few places where people are advised to use their head or heart, in different words. One of which is by that Paul guy.

Hope I didn't offend anyone, didn't mean to be attacking anyone. :meanface:


Naw. You didn't offend, at least not me. I'm not able to explain things clearly since I'm sick and dizzy, so please forgive me on my lack of clarity on things.

I'm a Christian that realizes that the Bible was written by humans, and those writings were a very human account of Godly things that happened in their lives. That's why I read the Bible warily and prayerfully. What Godde wants to show me in the passages, He/She will. I didn't mean to imply that everything Paul wrote was junk. I meant to say that he became a Christian, but couldn't shed the Pharasee that he was entirely, and so he became very legalistic in the things he tried to preach, rather than going with the spirit of how Christ was reported to have taught. Paul did write things that the Spirit of Godde touched me with, like when he wrote about the Spiritual Gifts for example.

I have no doubt that Paul and the Apostles would have condemned most of what evils have been done in the name of Christ. The Pharasees, though, are another matter. Don't forget that Paul was a Pharasee out slaughtering Christians en masse because the Christians were "preaching false Jewish ideas" before he became Christian. It's the fundamentalism that guided him when he was a Pharasee that I don't think he was entirely able to shed, and so his writings I look at with a more critical eye then, say, the writings of stories that were passed down by the people who actually met Christ on how to walk with Christ. That, and there are many things that are contradictory between what Paul says and what the Apostles said, including on what it takes to get into Heaven, which alone tells me that the Bible is not infallable and should be read prayerfully.

What prayerful reading has told me is that the older Jewish laws were around to 1) preserve the Hebrews for the coming of the Messiah and to keep them safe(r), and 2) that Jesus showed love and tolerance, and that is how we're supposed to be to be in line with his teachings. In Spirit, it doesn't say "if you're a homosexual you're going to Hell" or "if you don't cast a certain spell that says 'Christ is my Lord and Saviour' then you're going to Hell", though these are things Paul has said, and Christ really didn't. Even "none shall come unto the Father but through me" is up for a lot of interpretation. It COULD mean what fundamentalists say it does (you're Christian or you're going to Hell), but I don't see a just and loving God condemning people to Hell that were born in the wrong area of the world to even know who this Christ was. More likely, it meant that he died for ALL of minkind, and so long as we live with his teachings in our heart (even if we do so unknowingly), then we show appreciation to the Diety for what happened.

Okay, I know this probably didn't come out as good as I would have liked either, but I'm starting to have a dizzy spell again...

LordHelmet
August 18th, 2005, 12:16 AM
Galations 2 (Amplified Version)
11But when Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I protested and opposed him to his face [concerning his conduct there], for he was blameable and stood condemned.
12For up to the time that certain persons came from James, he ate his meals with the Gentile [converts]; but when the men [from Jerusalem] arrived, he withdrew and held himself aloof from the Gentiles and [ate] separately for fear of those of the circumcision [party].
13And the rest of the Jews along with him also concealed their true convictions and acted insincerely, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy (their example of insincerity and pretense).
14But as soon as I saw that they were not straightforward and were not living up to the truth of the Gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before everybody present, If you, though born a Jew, can live [as you have been living] like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how do you dare now to urge and practically force the Gentiles to [comply with the ritual of Judaism and] live like Jews?
15[I went on to say] Although we ourselves (you and I) are Jews by birth and not Gentile (heathen) sinners,
16Yet we know that a man is justified or reckoned righteous and in right standing with God not by works of the Law, but [only] through faith and [absolute] reliance on and adherence to and trust in Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). [Therefore] even we [ourselves] have believed on Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law [for we cannot be justified by any observance of the ritual of the Law given by Moses], because by keeping legal rituals and by works no human being can ever be justified (declared righteous and put in right standing with God).(B)

Galations 3 (The Message)
9So those now who live by faith are blessed along with Abraham, who lived by faith--this is no new doctrine! 10And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure. Scripture backs this up: "Utterly cursed is every person who fails to carry out every detail written in the Book of the law."
11The obvious impossibility of carrying out such a moral program should make it plain that no one can sustain a relationship with God that way. The person who lives in right relationship with God does it by embracing what God arranges for him. Doing things for God is the opposite of entering into what God does for you. Habakkuk had it right: "The person who believes God, is set right by God--and that's the real life." 12Rule-keeping does not naturally evolve into living by faith, but only perpetuates itself in more and more rule-keeping, a fact observed in Scripture: "The one who does these things [rule-keeping]continues to live by them."
13Christ redeemed us from that self-defeating, cursed life by absorbing it completely into himself. Do you remember the Scripture that says, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"? That is what happened when Jesus was nailed to the Cross: He became a curse, and at the same time dissolved the curse.

In reference to the ammendments that were made to the covenant after captivity in Babylon and Persia.

18No, this addendum, with its instructions and regulations, has nothing to do with the promised inheritance in the will.

What is the point, then, of the law, the attached addendum? It was a thoughtful addition to the original covenant promises made to Abraham. 19The purpose of the law was to keep a sinful people in the way of salvation until Christ (the descendant) came, inheriting the promises and distributing them to us. Obviously this law was not a firsthand encounter with God. It was arranged by angelic messengers through a middleman, Moses. 20But if there is a middleman as there was at Sinai, then the people are not dealing directly with God, are they? But the original promise is the direct blessing of God, received by faith.

I don't think that the pharisees where legalistic at all, from what I've been able to gather the pharasees felt that the greatest thing in the world was worshiping God, who to them, (I think they were revolutionaries in this) was both male and female, and kindness. the too of which were intertwined. Many pharisees would practice all of the ritualistic adherances that the priests had to folow feeling that the entire jewish race and community was to be a light unto the cold and uncareing world the same way that the preists were supposed to be to them in the days of the original covenant. It is for this reason that when the two pharisees were trying to trick question Jesus that they felt that they had failed when his answers weren't legaly correct, but moraly. I can't remember what they were off the top of my head.

Well I hope I gave you something to chew on, hope you don't get to dizzy off it.

Ninjakitten
August 18th, 2005, 12:33 AM
That does give me something to chew on. I won't claim to know everything that is in the Bible, as I wasn't raised with it. Godde reveals to me in His/Her own time what He/She wants me to learn from it, and you did give me something to think about along those lines. Do you know if there is anything in the Bible about how the Pharasees felt about Paul's slaughtering of Christians per chance? All I recall is that he was one of them, but I don't recall hearing whether or not he was considered a radical by their standards.

dark witch
August 18th, 2005, 08:36 AM
When I was in Hebrew school for my Bar Mitzvah, we asked the Rabbi about the parting of the Red Sea. Our Rabbi was a very learned man. He reminded us that what is contained in bible/torah, etc., was handed down word of mouth for many, many years before being committed to paper. He also reminded us of the telephone game, where one person says something to the next in line, and by the time the message gets to the end, it is often very different than the original message. He told us that the parting of the red sea might well have been some kind of low tide, or some other mundane situation. His point was to not take everything you read in the scriptures quite so literally.

Flash forward 32 years, and I now find myself a disciple of chaos magic. The thought behind CM is that it is impossible for every religion or spirituality to cover all that life throws at you. Rather than pick and choose aspects of a religion, chaos mages have no dogma, but will adopt a paradigm that will be useful to them, and believe in it wholeheartedly. The key is to dismiss the paradigm when its' usefulness is over.

While this may seem hedonistic at first glance, it's not a whole lot different than belonging to a religion, but only picking out the parts you wish to apply to you, while ignoring other dogma that you choose not to believe in. For that matter, it doesn't seem much different than picking bits and pieces of several diverse beliefs and fashioning them into one "custom made" spirituality or religion. That is why chaos magic seemed to be such an appealing system to me....

Dark Witch

Ninjakitten
August 18th, 2005, 11:39 AM
When I was in Hebrew school for my Bar Mitzvah, we asked the Rabbi about the parting of the Red Sea. Our Rabbi was a very learned man. He reminded us that what is contained in bible/torah, etc., was handed down word of mouth for many, many years before being committed to paper. He also reminded us of the telephone game, where one person says something to the next in line, and by the time the message gets to the end, it is often very different than the original message. He told us that the parting of the red sea might well have been some kind of low tide, or some other mundane situation. His point was to not take everything you read in the scriptures quite so literally.

Flash forward 32 years, and I now find myself a disciple of chaos magic. The thought behind CM is that it is impossible for every religion or spirituality to cover all that life throws at you. Rather than pick and choose aspects of a religion, chaos mages have no dogma, but will adopt a paradigm that will be useful to them, and believe in it wholeheartedly. The key is to dismiss the paradigm when its' usefulness is over.

While this may seem hedonistic at first glance, it's not a whole lot different than belonging to a religion, but only picking out the parts you wish to apply to you, while ignoring other dogma that you choose not to believe in. For that matter, it doesn't seem much different than picking bits and pieces of several diverse beliefs and fashioning them into one "custom made" spirituality or religion. That is why chaos magic seemed to be such an appealing system to me....

Dark Witch


Hmm. That sounds very interesting. It kinda sounds like a Taoist approach to religion.
I guess the reason I call myself a Christian witch (probably I'll eventually just call myself an Eclectic Christian when I do incorporate more "stuff" into my path) is simply because of my faith in the Christ. I may come to find that I'll end up where you've gone, except because of what I've experienced with the Divine, I don't feel I'll ever drop Christ as a central point in my path. In my case, I can't forget when the Divine cast a sphere of light around me to shield me from the outside world and spoke to me through a being of light (an Angel?) and told me to look in the one place for truth that I was unwilling to look. At the time, that was Christianity. I was looking just about everywhere else, but Christianity was the one place I was unwilling to look for Divine truth. That's my personal reason for not wanting to drop Christ (well, and other Divine experiences kinda help too).

I do find much truth in other faiths and believe that Godde didn't only touch people of the Christian or Jewish faiths and areas of influence. For example, I think I could learn much from Buddhism in how to find peace in my heart and as a result allow myself to open up to Divine communication again, or even the spirit within myself. After all, sometimes Godde is in the whispering wind that lies beyond the raging storm.

gurlygurl2004
August 18th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Well, first, let me introduce myself...

I'm 15 now. Although, I tend to wander through Wicca/Witchcraft/etc. websites and books, I'm originally a mormon. I was baptised around the age of 8.

Though, I didn't really consider myself a mormon, or, at least I called myself a Christian, or basically a follower of Jesus.

As I got older, I pretty much got myself away from the church. Now I never step foot in it, unless if I'm helping with my dad cleaning the church, which happens rarely.

Even though I went pretty far away from the church, I still clung to some of the most important Biblical teachings, believed in one God, and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, (and Buddha, which seem to be parallel to Jesus's teachings. :foh: )
I tend to be open-minded about other religions, and think God tolerates them to a extent. Not everyone can agree on one subject, so that's why there's so many religions. Maybe God was expecting that.
Even the polythestic ones. Maybe God appears to others in different forms, or pagans worship different personalities of one God.

Now I find myself browsing through other religions and some elements from them. I read some things on Astrology for a while, though it kind of died out a bit, but I do believe that modern Astrology does work generally.
Also, I have two Llewellyn books. I bought one magical almanac a few years ago, (not sure where it is now but I have it somewhere) and yesterday, I bought the 2006 Herbal Almanac.
Also, I've browsed through the Pagan/Wiccan section on About.com.

I'm mostly interested in the herbal and meditative part of the religion. The idea of covens also sounds interesting, (not sure if I'd join one but it's interesting anyway). I also think, (well, depends on the person I suppose and the branch of Christianity), that, at the very least, a Christian can apply some elements of Wicca to Christianity, or their own individual beliefs, in a sense. At least the use of herbs, or maybe energies. Something like that. I'm still getting to know it. Maybe I'm confused on the subject. It makes me want to review my original beliefs.

Thoughts? Comments?


First off, don't let anyone think there's anything wrong with being a Christian witch. There isn't, I myself am a Christian witch. Good luck on finding your place.

Ninjakitten
August 18th, 2005, 12:33 PM
First off, don't let anyone think there's anything wrong with being a Christian witch. There isn't, I myself am a Christian witch. Good luck on finding your place.


You are?! Wow, you learn something new everyday.

CosmicWhispers
August 18th, 2005, 01:32 PM
Firstly, I must say that any path one chooses is fine as long as it works for them. That said, I've always had a belief that Christians who become "Christian witches" or "Christian Pagans" (which has just got to be an oxymoron) are keeping the Christian aspect as a kind of spiritual safety net. Paganism is as different from Christianity as Judaism is. Witchcraft is definitely an offshoot of Paganism. Pagans and witches were killed in the name of Christianity, as the Christians tried their best to stamp out Paganism. I've never understood how Christianity and Paganism/witchcraft/Wicca could possibly fit together. But again, to each their own!

Dark Witch
I used to think that way too. How can a person be a Christian Pagan? But let me
suggest a book that made me rethink this. It is called, "The Jesus Mysteries" by
Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy. Very good book. That book combined with my own
opinions of the bible, has lead me to believe Christianity is a pagan religion.
I know that statement will raise some eyebrows. :eyebrow: All I can suggest is
read the book and see what you think.

dark witch
August 18th, 2005, 03:20 PM
I'm glad we can discuss here. Often the topic of "Christian witches" starts flaming wars. Again, let me reiterate, what one believes in is fine with me, as long as it works for them, spirituality speaking.

It just seems to me that Christianity and Paganism are diametrically opposite from each other. Much the same way as I thought (and still think) that the Jews for Jesus movement was when I was Jewish.

Christianity is the belief in the holy trinity. The father, the son and the holy ghost. The bible is the cornerstone of that faith. Judaism believes in "the Lord our God the Lord is One.

From Wikipedia:

"The noun paganism has one meaning:

Meaning #1: any of various religions other than Christianity or Judaism or Islamism
Synonyms: pagan religion, heathenism"

Paganism is generally characterized by polytheism. Judaism certainly is not. While stretching a bit, some could make the case of the trinity as polytheistic, but that certainly is not the intention of the trinity. I dare say that if a "Christian witch" went into the average church, and informed the minister/priest/clergy that they were indeed a witch, I'm sure there would be much "discussion" regarding the issue. Why, the Catholic church even condemns 'The DaVinci Code', and that's a work of fiction!

There is always a way to rationalize pretty much anything. I guess what I don't understand is if one has a strong belief in Christianity or Judaism, what is the attraction of Paganism or witchcraft? Or visa versa?

Many, many people come to Paganism due to disillusionment about their current (usually birth) religion. I understand it is hard to chuck away spiritual ideas that have been ingrained since birth, but it seems to me that a change of religion is exactly what that entails. If you switch a religion, but retain basic principles of your previous religion "just in case", then I don't understand the purpose of the change....














I used to think that way too. How can a person be a Christian Pagan? But let me
suggest a book that made me rethink this. It is called, "The Jesus Mysteries" by
Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy. Very good book. That book combined with my own
opinions of the bible, has lead me to believe Christianity is a pagan religion.
I know that statement will raise some eyebrows. :eyebrow: All I can suggest is
read the book and see what you think.

dragoncrone
August 18th, 2005, 03:47 PM
the teachings of Jesus Christ, (and Buddha, which seem to be parallel to Jesus's teachings.

Inquisitive you are. The Force is strong in this one. *Yoda voice*
There's a line in "Wasted on the Way" by Crosby Still & Nash: "..when you were young, did you question all the answers..." which is exactly the right thing to do. I believe you'll find as you read more about the Buddha and Buddhism that it differs in many ways from Xtianity.

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's much too darkto read."
-Groucho Marx

LadyCelt
August 19th, 2005, 05:28 AM
I consider myself Chrsitian. I had a few years of being in a youth gorup im my past, but wasn't a full beliver. I've been Chrsitian and baptised about a year.

I have taken interest in Druidy and Egyptology and the elements an dchakras etc. I do not see myself practicing magics or divination, but I see nothing wrong with exposing myself to more than my own faith. I find it very interesting. also, Christianity is a new relgion compared to some others as well. Judaism is older, but paganism and I htink its called animism is probalby the oldest.

I did a thread about how the Bible chagned it to seem like sorcery and witches were bad, but that's not what it originally said too, so who knows with that.

Some say Jesus used sorcery and not God to do his miracles. It all depends on the srouce and who you ask.

I feel you should do what makes you happy. I see nothing wrong with exploring other things. I'm sure some relatives of mine and people on a couple Christian forums I'm on would have a fit to know I belong here. But, I see nothing good in being narrow minded.

Good luck to you on finding what you want with this too.

Rich
August 19th, 2005, 05:32 AM
just remember we accept everyone for who they are here as long as they wish no harm and your very much welcome :)

LordHelmet
August 19th, 2005, 11:42 AM
Ninja Kitten

If you want to know Pauls backround it's mostly in Acts, look for Saul though, because that was his name before he changed it. It would appear to me that he was something of a mob leader and I didn't see any references to pharisees. I remember growing up thinking he had been a pharisee, but he was a roman citizen, unlikly that he would be a pharisee to.



Lady Celt

When did you go androgynous? Anyway, there's another way to look at the miracles with Jesus, if you see God as being like the divine, or the universe, then Jesus would have most definatly used God to do magic, just like anyone else practicing magick. If you see God as a deity, it's quite common to invoke a deity in Magical practice. Many Ceramonialists do invoke God now, why not, especialy if your doing his bidding in the first place? As far as the larger scale miracles, like water to wine, walking on water ect. these follow a close simmilar pattern to the life cycles of the deitys in the Osiris-Dynisios group. A lot of people think (myself included) that these were added in afterward. Many people argue that pagans forsaw future events of Christ and preplagerized them. Hmmmm...

equinox2
August 19th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Ninjakitten wrote:

If you want to know Pauls backround it's mostly in Acts, look for Saul though, because that was his name before he changed it. It would appear to me that he was something of a mob leader and I didn't see any references to Pharisees.

Acts 26:5 reads:
(Paul said) : So Paul [said]:

"The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, Ö I lived as a Pharisee.

This fits somewhat with Pauls letter to the Galatians 1:13 which reads:

I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

OK, so thatís where the idea of Paul as a Pharisee comes from. It seems to fit OK, especially since it is in Gal, which historians believe Paul actually wrote himself. However, be careful with Paulís history in Acts. It may have some parts that are accurate, but much of it may simply be made up. While Gal was actually written by Paul (minus the changes described in Post #17 here http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=104159&page=2) (http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=104159&page=2)) , Acts was written by some anonymous Christian around 30 years after the events. He probably wasnít an eyewitness, and so his stories may be little more than hearsay, so even if it says something about Paul in acts, it may be incorrect. Pauls own letters (1 cor, 2 cor, Rom, gal, 1 thes, Philip, philemon) are more reliable to see who Paul was. Note that 1, 2 tim and Titus are forgeries, and eph, 2 thes, and col probably are forgeries.

Either way, whether or not Paul preached against witchcraft or not, you have the freedom to do what is best for your spiritual development. Take care-

Ninjakitten
August 19th, 2005, 09:21 PM
Thank you Lord Helmet and Equinox for your help. I very much appreciate it.



I'm glad we can discuss here. Often the topic of "Christian witches" starts flaming wars. Again, let me reiterate, what one believes in is fine with me, as long as it works for them, spirituality speaking.

It just seems to me that Christianity and Paganism are diametrically opposite from each other. Much the same way as I thought (and still think) that the Jews for Jesus movement was when I was Jewish.

Christianity is the belief in the holy trinity. The father, the son and the holy ghost. The bible is the cornerstone of that faith. Judaism believes in "the Lord our God the Lord is One.

From Wikipedia:

"The noun paganism has one meaning:

Meaning #1: any of various religions other than Christianity or Judaism or Islamism
Synonyms: pagan religion, heathenism"

Paganism is generally characterized by polytheism. Judaism certainly is not. While stretching a bit, some could make the case of the trinity as polytheistic, but that certainly is not the intention of the trinity. I dare say that if a "Christian witch" went into the average church, and informed the minister/priest/clergy that they were indeed a witch, I'm sure there would be much "discussion" regarding the issue. Why, the Catholic church even condemns 'The DaVinci Code', and that's a work of fiction!

There is always a way to rationalize pretty much anything. I guess what I don't understand is if one has a strong belief in Christianity or Judaism, what is the attraction of Paganism or witchcraft? Or visa versa?

Many, many people come to Paganism due to disillusionment about their current (usually birth) religion. I understand it is hard to chuck away spiritual ideas that have been ingrained since birth, but it seems to me that a change of religion is exactly what that entails. If you switch a religion, but retain basic principles of your previous religion "just in case", then I don't understand the purpose of the change....


I'm glad we can discuss this, too. It is all too often that people on all sides of this issue get defensive, or offensive. I'm glad this has stayed pretty civilized thus far.

I guess you could say that in many cases that I have heard of, including my own, there is a strong faith in the Christ, but it's the way modern Christianity is usually passed off or taught buy "the Church" (insert modern denomination here) that we become disillusioned with. We start to see past the "everyone else is evil" junk, and see the hearts of people that are in other faiths. Sometimes we even get disillusioned with how our fellow Christians act, and justify their attitudes with selective passages, usually from the Old Testament, and usually not referencing Jesus, except to tell "Hellbound" people that "God so loved them that he gave his only son" stuff (John 3:16, BTW). When we see past the control of modern Christians and their attitudes, and see into the hearts of other faiths, we don't see enough of a difference to condemn the other faiths (sometimes). We sometimes even see the heart of the Christ in nonbelievers (but were told only Christians could do that!).

Why do we start to allow incorporation of other beliefs and faiths into our Christian walk? Because we don't see enough of a reason not to, because we see people of other paths walking as the Christ did and as Christians should but usually forget to, we see wisdom that is lacking in the churches, and in some cases, we want to touch on the Divine in other levels and with other methods that the churches may condemn, but we don't see enough evidence as to why we should actually condemn it, either in the form of seeing mistranslations in the Bible or simply not seeing the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, but as a guide from others who had experiences with the Divine, and wrote in their own words their experiences. The reason we don't give up on Christ when we do this is usually because we have seen what he has done, and at times see what he is still doing in our lives, and THAT is what we are unwilling to give up on, not because of fear of Hellfire and Damnation. We do it out of love.

LordHelmet
August 20th, 2005, 10:31 PM
1 John 4
7My beloved friends, let us continue to love each other since love comes from God. Everyone who loves is born of God and experiences a relationship with God. 8The person who refuses to love doesn't know the first thing about God, because God is love--so you can't know him if you don't love. 9This is how God showed his love for us: God sent his only Son into the world so we might live through him. 10This is the kind of love we are talking about--not that we once upon a time loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to clear away our sins and the damage they've done to our relationship with God.
11My dear, dear friends, if God loved us like this, we certainly ought to love each other. 12No one has seen God, ever. But if we love one another, God dwells deeply within us, and his love becomes complete in us--perfect love!

13This is how we know we're living steadily and deeply in him, and he in us: He's given us life from his life, from his very own Spirit. 14Also, we've seen for ourselves and continue to state openly that the Father sent his Son as Savior of the world. 15Everyone who confesses that Jesus is God's Son participates continuously in an intimate relationship with God. 16We know it so well, we've embraced it heart and soul, this love that comes from God.

God is love. When we take up permanent residence in a life of love, we live in God and God lives in us.

Quote taken from www.BibleGateway.com (www.BibleGateway.com) (trans. The Message)

Does anybody see why the red line doesn't fit, or is it just me? If you read first John you'll see this paradox all throughout the letter (actualy I think it was a poem) in whatever translation. 1John constantly repeats itself (I think I was noticing the chorus sometimes) and the entire thing has this paradox, as if all loving people confess that Jesus was flesh and blood and Gods son. I think some of it was added in. That or John was stupid... but would a stupid person like that realize that the important thing to God is that we love one another?

Mystery

LordHelmet
August 20th, 2005, 10:38 PM
1 John 4
2Here's how you test for the genuine Spirit of God. Everyone who confesses openly his faith in Jesus Christ--the Son of God, who came as an actual flesh-and-blood person--comes from God and belongs to God. 3And everyone who refuses to confess faith in Jesus has nothing in common with God. This is the spirit of antichrist that you heard was coming. Well, here it is, sooner than we thought!

Pure Ahimsa
August 20th, 2005, 10:48 PM
Well, first, let me introduce myself...

I'm 15 now. Although, I tend to wander through Wicca/Witchcraft/etc. websites and books, I'm originally a mormon. I was baptised around the age of 8.

Though, I didn't really consider myself a mormon, or, at least I called myself a Christian, or basically a follower of Jesus.

As I got older, I pretty much got myself away from the church. Now I never step foot in it, unless if I'm helping with my dad cleaning the church, which happens rarely.

Even though I went pretty far away from the church, I still clung to some of the most important Biblical teachings, believed in one God, and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, (and Buddha, which seem to be parallel to Jesus's teachings. :foh: )
I tend to be open-minded about other religions, and think God tolerates them to a extent. Not everyone can agree on one subject, so that's why there's so many religions. Maybe God was expecting that.
Even the polythestic ones. Maybe God appears to others in different forms, or pagans worship different personalities of one God.

Now I find myself browsing through other religions and some elements from them. I read some things on Astrology for a while, though it kind of died out a bit, but I do believe that modern Astrology does work generally.
Also, I have two Llewellyn books. I bought one magical almanac a few years ago, (not sure where it is now but I have it somewhere) and yesterday, I bought the 2006 Herbal Almanac.
Also, I've browsed through the Pagan/Wiccan section on About.com.

I'm mostly interested in the herbal and meditative part of the religion. The idea of covens also sounds interesting, (not sure if I'd join one but it's interesting anyway). I also think, (well, depends on the person I suppose and the branch of Christianity), that, at the very least, a Christian can apply some elements of Wicca to Christianity, or their own individual beliefs, in a sense. At least the use of herbs, or maybe energies. Something like that. I'm still getting to know it. Maybe I'm confused on the subject. It makes me want to review my original beliefs.

Thoughts? Comments?

Everyone persons path is different, and yours is as beautiful as anyone elses :)
Welcome! :)

CzechWoods
August 20th, 2005, 11:16 PM
wicca and xianity have similar roots.

as far as i know, its rather possible being a christian wicca (meaning you might find more acceptance for being christian from the wiccans) than a wiccan christians (as in finding christians who tolerate you being wiccan)

this may be rooted in the fact that wicca is generally rather polytheist while christianity is a more monotheist, exclusive thing

Malcolm
August 21st, 2005, 04:13 AM
I don't have anything to earth shattering to say.

I was raised Lutheran, with more than our families fair share of pastors as my relatives.

It's good that you question. It shows intelligence.

The only words of advice I can offer are this... Don't ever look for your self in any path, you won't find you.

Heather05
August 21st, 2005, 06:14 PM
I too was raised a christian and was very active in the church when I was younger. However as I got older, I found myself gradually pulling away from it. It seemed to me that the farther I got from it the more questions I had about my faith in the church. And was not highly looked at when I started asking these questions. I mean they were simple questions such as "how?" and "why?" but not one single person could give me a straight or simple answer. That was when I completely lost my faith in the church and thier beliefs and started my search for my own. Lucky for me that I found my faith again in a community that holds no gudges or resentments for any other belief system or the people that come from them.

David19
August 22nd, 2005, 02:47 PM
I think you could combine both paths and i don't think witchcraft or using magic goes against God since the bible was written by humans who had agendas different to YHWH like King James who was afraid of witches so he translated it wrong from Hebrew to 'not to suffer a witch to live', also mystical abilities were used in Judaism for example Kabbalah as well as other spells, there are also several occult christian orders so i don't think you should be worried about using magic with christianity.

There's a book i'd like to get about how Jesus was also a master kabbalahist and an adept at it.

equinox2
August 22nd, 2005, 04:24 PM
Ninjakitten wrote:


we want to touch on the Divine in other levels and with other methods that the churches may condemn, but we don't see enough evidence as to why we should actually condemn it, either in the form of seeing mistranslations in the Bible or simply not seeing the Bible as the inerrant Word of God

Great summary! That's the way it can be done. Yes, the Bible has a lot of statements against many of the practices of Wicca or Witchcraft - and those don't appear to be mistranslations, as I've discussed before. However, if you don't see the Bible as the inerrant word of God, then Christian-Wicca is fine. In fact, don't forget that there are lots of other early Christain writings ( www.earlychristianwritings.com) (www.earlychristianwritings.com)) , that leave room for things like Christian-wicca. You just have to give up on the Bible first.



David 19 wrote:


There's a book i'd like to get about how Jesus was also a master kabbalahist and an adept at it.

OK, there may be a book on it. However, we have very little primary data on Jesus, so little in fact that I've read it all. Literally thousands of books have been written saying jesus was anything you can think of, such as a communist, a capitalist, a fundmentalist, an armed revolutionary, a pacifist, a Catholic, a Protestant, a radical feminist, a magician, a doomsayer, a mormon, an aryan, a Jew, a Nazi, a hobo, a hippie, and just about anything else you can think of. All of them start by deciding what they want to make jesus into, then taking a few lines that are favorable to them, then ignoring everything else, and proceeding to spinning a grand story, filled with their own speculation.

You might want to compare several sources on the historical Jesus, and see which are supported by evidence, and decide based on an unbiased look at the evidence (here is a good overview: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html) ).

Or, you could do what most people do (both Christians and non-Christians). First, just decide what you'd like Jesus to have been, and just stick with that. Evidence is irrelevant. You may choose a book which supports your view, and ignore all other books. That way you can feel like you actually read a book, even though reading one pre-chosen book means just about nothing.

Seriously though, I don't mean to sound aggressive - this is just the approach I see much more often than not.

Take care-

rayne100
August 29th, 2005, 09:13 PM
I don't have anything to earth shattering to say.

I was raised Lutheran, with more than our families fair share of pastors as my relatives.

It's good that you question. It shows intelligence.

The only words of advice I can offer are this... Don't ever look for your self in any path, you won't find you.

That is the best advise I have ever hear. and I;m being serious.
I needed to hear that jsut now:)
So in fact you did have something earthshattering to say, because it helped someone else to realize!
Rayne100

Kodachi
August 29th, 2005, 10:11 PM
I'm a Christian Witch. You can straddle the fence. I practice magick but pray to the Holy Trinity with some pagan flavor (I incorperate the Threefold rule and Wiccans/Witches' Rede with the Ten Commandments and biblical lessons, the non biased ones). You can PM or IM if you need to talk.

TheGodthatYouFear
August 29th, 2005, 10:19 PM
Sounds to me like there is a little to much worry about what people are called.

Who cares what it is, christian, pagan, wiccan. They are frivolous titles that don't even

really describe the belief system in whcih they are supposed to describe. Everybody has

their own point of view on what a pagan or wiccan or witch is. So my advice would be to

just belive what you want, and when someone asks "what you are", say human.

PropheticMonkey
August 29th, 2005, 10:49 PM
Thats right. Our beliefs are as diverse as our imagination is powerful. There could be unlimited beliefs that have no sort of solid backround whatsoever. But they are what makes the human race in itself unique. If people understood that, the search for ones beliefs might be that much easier.

I hope your community honors and respects your decision as they would wish for theirs to be as well. Good luck and may you find the spiritual answers you seek

Morgandria
August 29th, 2005, 10:55 PM
Christian Witch? Sure. Use magic all you like.

Christian Wiccan? No. That's like saying you're a Carnivorous Vegetarian.

Ninjakitten
August 29th, 2005, 11:58 PM
Christian Witch? Sure. Use magic all you like.

Christian Wiccan? No. That's like saying you're a Carnivorous Vegetarian.


Not that I am a Christian Wiccan, but the way I understand many who call themselves Christian Wiccans, they see the Christian mythos as being a pantheon according to extra-Biblical sources, like the Gnostic Gospels and other early Christian writings. When they call the Quarters, they invoke the Archangels, and they see the God as Yahweh and the Goddess as either Sophia, Shekinah, or the Holy Spirit (some consider them all the same Diety), and Jesus as being the earthly representative of the God and Mary Magdalene, or Mary Mother of Jesus as the earthly representative of the Goddess. I personally kind of think like this, but it's different enough to where I don't consider myself "Wiccan" enough to consider myself as Christian Wiccan. I just incorporate some Wiccan methods into my witchcraft.

Kaylara
August 30th, 2005, 07:10 AM
Not that I am a Christian Wiccan, but the way I understand many who call themselves Christian Wiccans, they see the Christian mythos as being a pantheon according to extra-Biblical sources, like the Gnostic Gospels and other early Christian writings. When they call the Quarters, they invoke the Archangels, and they see the God as Yahweh and the Goddess as either Sophia, Shekinah, or the Holy Spirit (some consider them all the same Diety), and Jesus as being the earthly representative of the God and Mary Magdalene, or Mary Mother of Jesus as the earthly representative of the Goddess. I personally kind of think like this, but it's different enough to where I don't consider myself "Wiccan" enough to consider myself as Christian Wiccan. I just incorporate some Wiccan methods into my witchcraft.

Ahh, see, and this is part of the reason we get into trouble. What you're describing isn't Wicca in and of itself anyways. The fact that Wicca has a goddess doesn't mean that every religion that has a goddess in it is Wiccan. (Although lately that's what it seems like.) Polarity is a big part of the religion, and Balance. But those are not the only teaching nor beliefs of Wicca, and to think so is a disservice to Wicca. I think that people who are going to call themselves Wiccan need to really research it well before doing so.

What you're describing Velderia, isn't mutually exclusive to Wicca, nor is it central to Wiccan belief. Meaning, you can look at these things, and practice these things without considering yourself or calling yourself Wiccan. My energy work is entirely separate from my being Wiccan. (And being Wiccan has helped it, but is in no way the only way, nor the only path that will teach it.) My herbalism has been influenced by my being Wiccan, but still is not the central reason for it, nor the only teachings I have on it. Covens are just groups of people who practice their religion together.

Personally I think that Christian Wicca is a contradiction of terms. They are two religions that have some very incompatible mores and beliefs, and I find that most people who try to mix them generally don't have a good idea of what Wicca's belief system actually is.

Kaylara
August 30th, 2005, 07:16 AM
Sounds to me like there is a little to much worry about what people are called.

Who cares what it is, christian, pagan, wiccan. They are frivolous titles that don't even

really describe the belief system in whcih they are supposed to describe. Everybody has

their own point of view on what a pagan or wiccan or witch is. So my advice would be to

just belive what you want, and when someone asks "what you are", say human.

Everyone knows that when you're a Christian, it's because you follow the teachings of Christ. The reason for not having a good understanding of what a pagan, wiccan, or witch is, is a lack of education, not because it's ok, but because people only get told "Do whatever you want... that's what a pagan, wiccan, witch is." They're only labels, but if you're going to call yourself a member of a particular religion, you should at least know what that label, and what that religion actually stands for. The reason why the label is there is to make it easier for others to understand exactly what lines your religious beliefs fall along, otherwise we wouldn't have any labels at all, and things would be a lot more confusing. Go ahead and believe what you want, I have no problem with it. But when you do not believe, or do not act as a person your self proclaimed religion should, then you do a disservice to everyone else who does.

ollathair
August 30th, 2005, 08:32 AM
IMHO there is no such thing as a Christian Wiccan. A so-called Christian Wiccan is purely and simply a Wiccan who follows the Christian Pantheon. I am a Wiccan following the Celtic Pantheon but I am not a Celtic Wiccan (another misnomer).

Still, that is merely my opinion and not necessarily the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me, ... ummmmm

Morgandria
August 30th, 2005, 10:58 AM
A nice thought - but Christianity is not a pantheon, it's an entirely separate religion from Wicca. If you're practicing one, you can't really practice the other. They are mutually exclusive.

Kaylara
August 30th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Exactly.

CleftOfLight
August 30th, 2005, 05:34 PM
I just follow my heart,that is all the religion I need.But I like what the Dalai Lama said ounce:My true religion is kindness.

Also I would say that I am every religion,since I have been exposed to everuyting from Buddhism to christanity,from Bahai to Taoism and so on and so forth.These are just a few that I named.But you get the idea.
So in this sense I see myself of every religion.

But good luck to you and Christain witch path.May the great creator take you to new hights and shine forth his rays of love and understanding into your soul.

Ninjakitten
August 30th, 2005, 05:54 PM
IMHO there is no such thing as a Christian Wiccan. A so-called Christian Wiccan is purely and simply a Wiccan who follows the Christian Pantheon. I am a Wiccan following the Celtic Pantheon but I am not a Celtic Wiccan (another misnomer).

Still, that is merely my opinion and not necessarily the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me, ... ummmmm


You know, that's a really good point. I guess that's what I was getting at with people who call themselves Christian Wiccans. Some people do put what pantheon they are with in front of "Wiccan" to describe themselves, like I've heard people call themselves "Celtic Wiccans", "Hellenistic Wiccans" and "Kemetic Wiccans", though I usually just hear "Wiccan". I kind of have to go with "if you're following Gardner's version, THEN you're a Wiccan", and if other pantheons are allowed to be used while still followig the religion he created and named, THEN a Christian Wiccan is possible. Then again, what religion hasn't actually changed over time, especially in the first couple hundred years? I doubt any of our religions came out quite what their creators intended.

As for doing disservices to religions by using wrong labels, well, technically, no matter what kind of Christian you are, one can tell you at any point that you are doing a disservice to Christians everywhere by doing any number of things. Same with any religion. Some people use the labels to show membership in an organized religious system, while others, like myself, use the labels to show present attitudes towards a path. I follow Christ as best as I can with my limited abilities (including limited ability to know because of misinformation passed down to us). That makes me a Christian. I practice magic (and believe Christ both performed miracles and performed magic), revere the rest of Creation, see Godde in His AND Her Creation, work hard to do my part for the preservation of Creation (learning new habits, go to school to help endangered species, etc.), and many other things people who call themselves "witches" do. That makes me a witch to some degree, even if I'm not yet a good one.

I won't call myself a Christian Wiccan. Why? Because I'm not one by any definition. A "witch" tends to be a more loosely defined thing ranging from the King James version, to being a magic using person who reveres nature. I'm even finding out from some Druid friends of mine that my beliefs and practices may coincide a little more with being a Druid, even though my actuall practices in Circle would tell someone I have Wiccan influence if they watched me and saw the tools I used and how I used them.

Also, I don't see using the energies Godde put into His/Her Creation as being against Christ, as I have even seen Biblically that Christ even did some of that, even when he could have called upon Divine Will to get stuff done. Just because I won't follow the church like some mindless robot doesn't make me any less Christian, nor does me being Christian make me any less a witch, a lover of nature, a user of magic, etc. Don't take that as a heated response, because I'm in no way angry or offended. This is just how I see it.

Morgandria
August 31st, 2005, 01:19 AM
I kind of have to go with "if you're following Gardner's version, THEN you're a Wiccan", and if other pantheons are allowed to be used while still followig the religion he created and named, THEN a Christian Wiccan is possible.

If you're following Gardner's Wicca, you're not practicing Judeo-Christian monotheism. If you're practicing Christianity, then you're not going to worship the Goddess and the Horned God. I reiterate - Christianity is NOT just another pantheon you can tack onto anything. It is a separate religion, and Christian Wicca is not possible.

TheGodthatYouFear
August 31st, 2005, 01:28 AM
Everyone knows that when you're a Christian, it's because you follow the teachings of Christ.
Not that I really care, because I think that this is a really useless thing to argue about,
since it doesn't matter.

But if the Christians follow the teachings of christ, and we can tell that by the name.
Then how do you explain Jews, oh, and yeah, that's right, Jesus was a Jew.
Yup, makes absolute sence. I totally understand how this naming systme works now. :ringaroun

Kaylara
August 31st, 2005, 04:40 AM
Not that I really care, because I think that this is a really useless thing to argue about,
since it doesn't matter.

But if the Christians follow the teachings of christ, and we can tell that by the name.
Then how do you explain Jews, oh, and yeah, that's right, Jesus was a Jew.
Yup, makes absolute sence. I totally understand how this naming systme works now. :ringaroun

Ahh, but Jewish people follow the old testament covenant, and don't believe that Jesus was the messiah.

The naming system works when you bother to first learn about the religions before you call yourself something. If you're not going to call yourself anything, religiously speaking then there's no problem. My assertion however is that if you're going to label anything, you should make sure that you know what exactly the label you're choosing means.

Ninjakitten
August 31st, 2005, 09:48 PM
Ahh, but Jewish people follow the old testament covenant, and don't believe that Jesus was the messiah.

The naming system works when you bother to first learn about the religions before you call yourself something. If you're not going to call yourself anything, religiously speaking then there's no problem. My assertion however is that if you're going to label anything, you should make sure that you know what exactly the label you're choosing means.


Messianic Jews believe in Jesus, but then that's another seperate but equally heated (and a very parallel) issue.


If you're following Gardner's Wicca, you're not practicing Judeo-Christian monotheism. If you're practicing Christianity, then you're not going to worship the Goddess and the Horned God. I reiterate - Christianity is NOT just another pantheon you can tack onto anything. It is a separate religion, and Christian Wicca is not possible.

I have to agree much more than not, except the pantheon part which I admit to being on the fence on (simply because I honestly don't care because it's not really my issue). There are many who follow Gnostic Christianity who follow early Christian writings (and I think some Jewish, but don't quote me on that) that "show" that the Judeo-Christian faith isn't supposed to be monotheistic, but has a tree of life with either different gods or different aspects of one god (you'll need to ask a Gnostic Christian on it) expressed on it... I can't remember how it was explained to me. All I can say is it made sense at the time.

Also, when God said "thou shalt have no other gods before me"... well, that's something that could be up to interpretation, at least according to those who work with the Judeo-Christian, um, Diety-type being(s) and Angels. Many use other gods in conjunction with the Judeo-Christian one(s). I'm not agreeing with it by any stretch, but there are learned people who follow these ideas, and if they do follow those ideas, then I'd think it's possible to throw in the Horned God and the Goddess.

I'm just throwing ideas out there, BTW, and I've seen people that seem to make Christian Wicca work. I'm not too worried about winning some argument but, well, I am kind of thinking about what Kaylara's been saying when she says "The naming system works when you bother to first learn about the religions before you call yourself something." and applying it to the idea of condemning someone for calling themself something when you don't know enough about both religions.

Kaylara
September 1st, 2005, 06:27 AM
You can call yourself the Grand Poobah of Hajimiihookiejookielalaflompism, as long as you tell me what that entails first. The problem that I'm seeing here is that people tend to just entirely ignore giant parts of the religion, or don't bother to learn about them at all before mixing and matching them. In all cases you should study, learn, and practice your religion. The more you know about the religions that you're attempting to integrate with each other, the more easily others will accept it, and the less likely you will be bothered by stupid questions. If you arbitrarily choose a religion based on very little information and decide to call yourself it and then proceed to entirely change everything about into a different religion before you learn about the initial religion, yes I have a problem with that. Better to not call yourself anything or choose a label at all until you know enough about it to explain to other people competently.

Ninjakitten
September 1st, 2005, 09:07 PM
You can call yourself the Grand Poobah of Hajimiihookiejookielalaflompism, as long as you tell me what that entails first. The problem that I'm seeing here is that people tend to just entirely ignore giant parts of the religion, or don't bother to learn about them at all before mixing and matching them. In all cases you should study, learn, and practice your religion. The more you know about the religions that you're attempting to integrate with each other, the more easily others will accept it, and the less likely you will be bothered by stupid questions. If you arbitrarily choose a religion based on very little information and decide to call yourself it and then proceed to entirely change everything about into a different religion before you learn about the initial religion, yes I have a problem with that. Better to not call yourself anything or choose a label at all until you know enough about it to explain to other people competently.


You're right, of course. Otherwise you have one of these:

Cynyr
September 1st, 2005, 11:56 PM
Note that 1, 2 tim and Titus are forgeries, and eph, 2 thes, and col probably are forgeries.


Could you point me to some reference material on this? I find this very interesting.
Thanks,
Cynyr

Gen
September 7th, 2005, 11:32 PM
If you're following Gardner's Wicca, you're not practicing Judeo-Christian monotheism. If you're practicing Christianity, then you're not going to worship the Goddess and the Horned God. I reiterate - Christianity is NOT just another pantheon you can tack onto anything. It is a separate religion, and Christian Wicca is not possible.

But the pantheons that Wiccans worship were not originally Wiccan pantheons, either. The gods of Greece and Egypt and Ireland all had their own discrete religions that were very much NOT Wicca, some of them probably even more different from Wicca than Christianity is. If it's okay to adopt the pantheons of one religion (and I think it is, if done with respect), why not another?

Morgandria
September 8th, 2005, 12:42 AM
Because Christianity is NOT a pantheon. It is a religion with ONE God. One. Wicca is a duotheistic faith. Not mono-theistic. Mix whatever the heck you want - practice what you like.
But don't call it something that it's not. Christian Wicca is neither Christian nor Wicca.

fangedeshana
September 8th, 2005, 12:52 AM
Personally, I don't think there can be such a thing as a Christian-Wiccan. There are certain things one must believe in in any religion to carry the title. Wiccan's believe in The God and Goddess. Christians believe in God.

Though, you can be a Christian Witch, those who still worship God, and follow Jesus put tend to form a connection with them as most Wiccan's (and other Pagans) do; Meditation, Ritual and Witchcraft. It's quite fine to mix aspects of other religions together to form your own special blend that suits you, I'd just be careful about labels.

Meditation and Herbalism aren't really Wiccan, they're Universal tools used by many people and cultures around the world, though a lot of Wiccan's use these tools in their practice. There is no reason if you feel comfortable in encorperating them into your life why you shouldn't!

Good luck on finding your very own religious blend ;) *is really hanging for a cup of coffee*

fangedeshana
September 8th, 2005, 01:04 AM
But the pantheons that Wiccans worship were not originally Wiccan pantheons, either. The gods of Greece and Egypt and Ireland all had their own discrete religions that were very much NOT Wicca, some of them probably even more different from Wicca than Christianity is. If it's okay to adopt the pantheons of one religion (and I think it is, if done with respect), why not another?

Technically, when Wicca was created there was The Goddess and God. No names, no pantheons.

Who knows. Perhaps people who worship many, or a god and goddess from an specific pantheon aren't "really Wiccan".

But I don't agree that Christianity is a pantheon. It is a seperate religion. I think the greeks, romans, egyptians, etc pantheons seem to be "up for adoption" because it is either a lost practice, or impracticle to practice what those people practiced a very long time ago. I'm not sure if I explained myself well on that thought...


Mix whatever the heck you want - practice what you like.

I totally agree. I believe even if they shouldn't be, labels ARE important. It's what we are judged on, how other people understand us - or atleast can try to with a bit of education. It's important what you call yourself. If you're not sure, don't call yourself anything. I don't call myself anything because I'm personal, and eclectic in my spirituality. And it really doesnt matter in the end, because my spirituality is within me, so others don't really have to know about it, though I can explain it when asked. If you'd like a lable I would call it, The Uber Spiritualness of the Eshana-person.

Kaylara
September 8th, 2005, 05:51 AM
Well, not entirely... Originally Wicca had English and Celtic Gods and Goddesses only, because it was being practiced in England and Ireland. Gardner himself even says that he worships the deities appropriate to the area that he's in.

And I agree. I have a really hard time understanding how people can consider Christianity only a pantheon. (Although, that's probably part of the confusion, and the reason why they think it will work.) I mean, I can understand incorporating a Christian pantheon, but that's not what they're saying even. Because they're still trying to follow Christian mores. They're trying to marry the two religions, and they're really not two that fit well together.

dark witch
September 8th, 2005, 07:08 AM
I guess I'm still trying to understand why someone who has full belief in Jesus, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the bible, etc. want to add witchcraft/Wicca to the mix. What's missing from your Christian religion that you feel the need to combine what was, in the beginning, and still is, a totally seperate belief system?

I often think the ultimate test to what you really believe will be on your deathbed. I would suspect that a Christian witch/Wiccan would abandon the witch/Wiccan part pretty quickly, and put their fate in Jesus hands....

Dark Witch

equinox2
September 8th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Quote:

Note that 1, 2 tim and Titus are forgeries, and eph, 2 thes, and col probably are forgeries.


Could you point me to some reference material on this? I find this very interesting.
Thanks,
Cynyr

Yes. Sorry about the long wait, I just noticed your post. Don't forget that forgery was extremely common back then.

For some quick reference material, go here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/1timothy.html (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/1timothy.html)

Just a sample from there is:

1 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus). They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE.

Norman Perrin summarises four reasons that have lead critical scholarship to regard the pastorals as inauthentic (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 264-5):

(and then they go into these four reasons, and have more reasons later).

(In general, ECW has a lot of good information, collected from a variety of scholars, about the early Christian writings, both those in the Bible and those condemned by the Catholic Church.)

Reading over that site will give you a ton of information, both pro and con from different viewpoints. If you are interested in learning about what scholars have learned about our Bible (New Testament, actually), these classes on tape are excellent, and can be listened to during your commute. They are only $35, as much as you'll probably spend on gas in a week.

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/656.asp (http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/656.asp)

The same professor also has some other good courses, including courses that cover the Gnostic Christians, the DaVinci code, etc., all from a scholarly point of view (in other words, claims must be supported by evidence).

Enjoy!

Ninjakitten
September 9th, 2005, 08:30 PM
I guess I'm still trying to understand why someone who has full belief in Jesus, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the bible, etc. want to add witchcraft/Wicca to the mix. What's missing from your Christian religion that you feel the need to combine what was, in the beginning, and still is, a totally seperate belief system?

I often think the ultimate test to what you really believe will be on your deathbed. I would suspect that a Christian witch/Wiccan would abandon the witch/Wiccan part pretty quickly, and put their fate in Jesus hands....

Dark Witch


Christians have been incorporating "witchcraft" into their Christianity for centuries, even since the beginning of the split between Jews that believed in the Christ and those that didn't, then the spread of the believers' faith to the Gentiles. Some of us see a lot of what Christ himself did as begin magic, witchcraft as we sometimes define it today, rather than an act of the Divine, like when he spit into the ground, smeared the mud onto the eyes of a blind man, then told the blind man to go to a certain sacred river (I believe the one Jesus himself was baptized in) and wash off the mud, and the blind man was able to see. If he was simply using Divine power rather than a mastery of worldly forces, why did he resort to those methods? He performed other types of healing in multiple ways, both the type that shows evidence of Divine authority (raising someone from the dead kind of shows some sort of Divine authority), and others that show an authority over earthly powers (like the blind man being healed, and even some ways he healed the sick could be called either way).

Also, not all of us Christians see the Bible as infallible, but as a recorded account of what people witnesses, in some cases being written down a lot later. I'm a scientist. I find it hard to believe in something blindly, whether it is in a book written by man on the Divine or some human made system attempting to explain the Divine. I can't deny my experiences that made me a Christian in the first place, nor can I deny that there are energies the Divine put into Creation, and that we are able to use them. I do not see it evil to use them, despite what "the Church" wants to say, interpret, or compile against it.

Also, in other early Christian documents, including ones not included in the Bible, as well as some that are, there IS evidence in a feminine Divine figure (Goddess?), and the evidence is pretty strong if you aren't raised into thinking a certain way by the church about the translations. It is not in the New Testament, but in the Old Testament (ie, from the basis for Christianity to exist, in Proverbs, and I heard recently in Psalms as well). Women can be included and be considered equal, but, again, that is a belief you can only hold as a Christian who doesn't believe the Bible is the one and only infallible Word of God, and see it as a guide that reflects an understanding of God for the day that it was written, so we can evolve the system as we learn more in the future. After all, if Christianity wasn't supposed to evolve, why would there be any mention in the New Testament about "people coming after Christ" speaking more truth, or people being given the "Gift of Prophecy" if the Bible was the end to all Christian knowledge?

As for the Wicca part, I'm just not going to say more on it. I have my own battles to fight, including fighting with my Genetics, Evolution, Wildlife Management, and Animal Behaviour classes (oh, no! I'm anti-Christian :hehehe: ), so I need to cut down on my time on here. I just had a decent brake and decided to give you my answer, whether or not it's one you believe in or care about. It's all my opinion and limited experiences. I won't claim my knowledge of truth is any more infallible than than the Bible's expression of it. All I can promise is that I seek it and strive with every breath to be objective in my observations of the world around me as I can in my seeking of truth (not "my" truth, but the actual truth that is based on reality)