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Necrosapien
August 17th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Hiyas,

I'm looking at stuff like the Golden Dawn and other CM-type things. A lot of it involves YHVH. Now in the bible it speaks against magic, witchcraft, etc. I understand that some have a different understanding of those words. Some are translated as poisoner, etc. I was wonder what your thoughts as a CM were on this (specifically if you believe the bible has spiritual athority) as some things (probably many) include YHVH in them (ie the LBRP). I'm sorry if this seems dumb, but I was just wondering what you think about it. Also, I was wondering how the Golden Dawn includes sacred geometry in it's practices. (PS, I've read through the CM COT thread already, so I thought I'd post this as well.) Um...that's it for now. I have to rush off to work, so I'll check later tonight. Sorry if this has been answered, I've done searches and tried to look up info on the net etc. Thanks though.

RedRaven
August 17th, 2005, 05:35 PM
I do a few CM rituals myself and the hebrew names are just symbolic. the whole thing with YHVH have to do with the elements, kether and the balance of male/female god/goddess and the individual hebrew letters. either check out "modern magick" by kraig or "self-inititaion into the golden dawn tradition". these books can explain the concept much better than I ever could.

RR

Kudzu
August 17th, 2005, 08:39 PM
I don't know much about Christianity, so I think you'll have to reconcile the two in your own heart. However, my mother practices Ceremonial Magic and also considers herself Catholic, and she is quite at peace with the combination, so I know it's possible.

BenSt
August 17th, 2005, 08:48 PM
I think you have to look at things from a less black and white standpoint. Look at it this way, ONE tradition of Christianity bars witchcraft...but that is not true for ALL. If you look at Kabbalistic and ancient semitic magic and mysticism, YHWH is invoked less as the almighty GOD figure found in Christianity and more as an abstract Absolute. It really has nothing to dow ith Christianity or it's silly little laws, becasue really a vast majority of the things in the bible are either historical accounts or metaphors. Well, thats how I see it anyways...the Catholic Church and soem other more poiwerful traditions take a very literal form of the Bible, but rememebr that at the time the Bible was written, there were many more sacred books originating from the area that were not included in the Bibnle simply becasue it did not follow a group of men's concept of what shape the religion should take. YHWH is only a name...a name among names for what is beyond, and in essence there is no difference between the spirit Wiccans call the Goddess and YHWH. I cant really speak to tor Golden Dawn, as I have only started to look into European occult traditions...but of what I have learned already...that is what I would say anyways. Hope this has soemwhat contributed :). Namaste

Tobias

BeachWitch
August 17th, 2005, 10:13 PM
This discussion came up[ on another list I am subscribed to. In the discussion the topic was specific to Enochian Magic, which is along the lines of Ceremonialism and the GD and OTO. I am post part of the discussion for you to read and draw your own conclusions:


Right off, I'd say the key phrase is: "one should *not* dabble in the Enochian/Goetic systems"; the operative word being "dabble". Either shit or get off the pot! If you're going to work Enochian, then push all your other stuff aside and focus strictly on Enochian. It's a very powerful system with huge rewards, but as such, is not to be taken lightly. The fact that you ask whether or not you can mix it with shamanism shows, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that you are in fact taking it lightly and have no business whatsoever working Enochian magic.

Enochian specifically deals with the Biblical angels, devils, demons, sacred names of the Judeo-Christian God, etc. Let's say, just for a second, you have enough sense to work strictly with the angels. Who do the angels serve? Yes, Yahweh. And what does the first commandment say? Yes, that Yahweh is a "jealous god", and that "thou shalt not hold any other gods before" him. Yet here you are, a Pagan, gleefully holding EVERY other god before him, and then being so shitty a mortal to boss his angels around without bothering to follow his commandments or even ask his permission. Considering that Yahweh turns entire towns of people into pillars of salt when he gets pissed off, what do you think is going to happen to you in the end?

Enochian focuses a great deal on forcing your will upon such angels, devils, and other such entities. Yes, you enslave them and force them, against their will, to do your bidding! Essentially, that's what Enochian magic is--read through your John Dee, King Solomon, Abramelin the Mage, "Black Pullet", etc if you doubt me on this. Naturally, Enochian work demands that you be quite practiced in the corresponding ceremonial work that will offer you necessary magical protection against the vengience of such entities. The very nature of Enochian work means that you're going to make a lot of enemies on the astral. If you're a truly powerful wizard, this might be fine. But the fact that you're asking the questions you're asking says, make that SHOUTS, that you're nowhere near powerful enough to fend off any counter-attacks such entities might make upon you. And besides, this kind of life--always looking over your shoulder, always having to be absolutely certain that your daily (and yes, I mean DAILY) ceremonial magical protections are executed with absolute and unwavering perfection--why would you want to be looking over your shoulder like that all the time? Remember, if you're going to be an Enochian Magician, you NEVER, EVER get a day off--you cannot have a bad day doing your morning LBRP!

Understand that the flipside of all this is power--Enochian is an extremely powerful system and it does work. Enochian practioners are not morons; they don't swear by it for nothing! But with such power comes a price. Methinks if you seriously want to work such a system, the very first thing you should do is run, not walk, to your nearest synagogue and convert to Judaism. Accept Yahweh as your primary patron deity. While you can attend Pagan rituals, Yahweh must come first--he demands it in the bible. And then, master your basic ceremonial work; do your LBRP, Middle Pillar, Circle of the Body Light, Hexagram EVERY SINGLE DAY for at least a year. And then, be prepared to continue such daily workings every single day for the rest of your natural life. After all this, maybe, JUST MAYBE, you'll be ready to mess with Enochian work.

I give these strong warnings because I've known many ceremonial magicians who have died at very yound ages (30-45 years old) and of really weird shit, like flesh-eating bacteria, brain cancer, etc. Many more just don't seem quite right in the head. And then there are the few, the extremely disciplined, who make it work. If you're going to do it, please do it correctly.

All this takes me back to what I sometimes jokingly refer to as the "Dungeons and Dragons Theory of Paganism". While you shouldn't use the game as guide to your religion, D&D does have many parallels with actual paganism and sometimes can be very illustrative. In 1st & 2nd edition D&D there was a spell called "ensnare" where you ensnared an outer-planar being (angel, devil, demon, or whatnot) and kept it hostage until it agreed to do your bidding. This is an real-world Enochian/Ceremonial practice. Anyway, the last line of the spell read quite simply: "The entity may later seek revenge." Think about that.

Necrosapien
August 18th, 2005, 12:37 AM
Hm....a lot to look at indeed. I've taken a quick peek at Enochian magic and have looked at some Golden dawn things as well as the CM CoT class. I do agree that some 'holy' books have not been included in the bible. Unfortuantely, I'm searching for something that I will most likely not find. As far as I know, no one has found it (I'm speaking about ultimate truth :p and knowing that, you can see my point). Even if I don't reach it, I'm willing to embark on the journey. Especially since "ultimate truth" is "impossible" to some. I don't personally know, but hey, why not try? Godde knows my heart :heartthro But anyways, I'll keep looking into it. Most of all, I'm going to ask him. I'm looking forward to his answer. Thanks to everyone who posted.

BeachWitch
August 18th, 2005, 01:33 AM
You may want to check out Theurgy, it may be closer to the Ultimate truth you are seeking. Ceremonialism is focused on ritual, why not try Truth through Ritual?

kaosxmage
August 18th, 2005, 01:34 AM
At the time the Golden Dawn and similar systems were being birthed they used the language they understood most - Judeo-Christian mysticism. It's not uncommon in any system. Today many systems like to quote science (as the dominant paradigm in our day) when and where it suits their purposes. It's simply speaking in a manner the masses - or recruits - will understand and be familiar with.

--Kaos

Alkhemia
August 19th, 2005, 12:57 PM
With regard to the GD and conflicts with more "Orthodox" religious beliefs...

You have to bear in mind that the GD is a magical system and not, per se, a religion or spirituality. While some Judeo-Christian symbolism is freely used within the GD, the GD also heavily utilizes pagan symbolism - primarily, Egyptian and Greek. As someone else on this thread pointed out, an argument could be made that some of the Kabbalistic streams of thought within the GD (and, frankly, outside the GD as well) have a pagan core. At any rate, the use of Judeo-Christian symbolism in the GD has more in common with Gnosticism than with "Orthodox" Judeo-Christian theology.

Even the Rosicrucian-based Inner Order (which, by the by, is totally separate and distinct from the GD) heavily uses the Enochian magick system of John Dee. Keep in mind that, in "talking" to Dee, the Enochian angels told him that Jesus Christ was not God and that Jesus shouldn't be prayed to. The angels also had some rather "radical" (for the time - in this case, circa 1581) ideas about sexuality, that there is no "sin", etc. To my mind, these ideas are not reflected in "Orthodox" theologies and some of the Gnostic leanings of the GD make conflict with the Bible a moot point.

Within the GD, you'll find Pagans, Jews, Christians, Wiccans and even Muslims. (In fact, a good childhood friend of mine from the GD is a Muslim!) Still, none of these people have anything resembling a fundamentalist view of religion and they are able to incorporate their religious beliefs into the GD system.

Good luck on trying to find that "ultimate Truth." :) Honestly, I think that in magick or spirituality the journey becomes more important and instructive than the destination. Even William Butler Yeats (an Adept in the original GD) said while speaking of the Chief of the Order, MacGregor Mathers; "...he did not show me the Truth, but he did what he promised and he showed me a way to it." (This quote may not be exact, but its close. I'm doing this from memory, so caveat emptor!)

Alkhemia

Necrosapien
August 19th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Hehe, absolute truth...lol I get a kick out of it myself...but as of now, I feel like that's what I'm to be doing.

From that article that I read (If I understand it right) it's saying that magic that was harmful or used against others was prohibited. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Not to change topic or anything, but I'm sure many of you have heard of the Key of Solomon. Now does anyone know if this is actually attributed to him? Also, it seems as though one gets results from "inventing" some things with magic. I think it'd be neat to do that, but I could hardly have faith in something I've made up. lol What do you all think about inventing something like that? Does it work for you? I know Chaos magic is kind of like that in the sense of whatever gets results...but I still would have a tough time using something I made up. I'd feel foolish.

One last question... How could I utilize magic/rituals etc. in a Christian path. I know many do it, but if the systems of magic out there don't appeal to me...what am I left with?

Edit: Drat, forgot what I was going to say.

EDIT#2: Oh, I remember now. Does anyone know of some wholly Christian/Jewish magical practices. One that reveres YHVH that includes him in them and doesn't just use the tetragrammon for symbolism?

Alkhemia
August 19th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Hey Necrosapien:

Honestly, I'd have to look at the article you are referring to in order to get some context. However, while some parts of the Bible seem to prohibit the use of magic, there are also plenty of instances where "Godly" Biblical characters engage in magical practices. (John 9:1-7, Numbers 5:12-31, etc.) As you rightly point out, I think some differentiation is made between beneficial and malevolent magic.

The Key of Solomon, even being charitable, probably dates to between 1500-1600 CE. I know that there is a manuscript dating from the 15th century that is similar to, but far shorter than, some of the Key of Solomon we know (and love) today. Check out what the great Joseph Peterson says at his Esoteric Archives (http://www.esotericarchives.com) . Needless to say, Solomon did not have anything to do with its writing. :)

As far as Christian magic goes, you could look toward Classical/Renaissance Hermeticism. You might also want to check out Ancient Christian Magic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0691004587//ref=nosim/mysticwickson-20) by Meyer or visit; this site (http://choccult.8m.net/) . Also, some of the Rosicrucian schools might be of interest to you as well. As far as Judaic/Christian practices that include YHVH - you might want to check out the late Aryeh Kaplan's Meditation and the Kabbalah , Jewish Meditation and Meditation and the Bible . Kaplan was no new-ager and is actually quite Orthodox in his views.

Alkhemia

Necrosapien
August 20th, 2005, 03:01 AM
Uh yeah, I want to thank you for that awesome site you linked to. It was amazing. I now have it saved to my HD for browsing at my leisure. I'm very excited. You have no idea how much that site helped. Thanks so much! :D