Religious Labels

[Darkdale]

Are religious labels good or bad? I have a couple of questions on the matter.

1. Do you feel that religious labels restrict liberty of religious experience? In other words, does the pressure to adhere to religious dogmas within specific traditions limit an individuals ability to experience the full breadth of divinity?

2. Do traditions and labels really restrict freedom of thought, or are they simply generalizations.

3. Do the benefits of belonging to a tradition and the carrying of the label outweigh the annoyence of sometimes being misunderstood because of that label?

[taijiya]

1) I would say that's certainly possible--but I'd also say that, if such were the case, then the person in question was probably in the wrong tradition for them. And I do think that some people are simply unsuited to belonging to any sort of tradition beyond what they might craft for themselves.

2) Again, it's possible, depending on the tradition itself and the level to which its beliefs/practises have become fixed or dogmatised.

3) (Note: I am apparently a true relativist.) That is entirely dependent on the individual's desires. For some, the cachet or validity afforded by belonging to this or that particular trad will be very important to their self-conception; for others, not so much. If you belong to a trad that's got a reputation--good or bad--then you have to accept that you're going to be tarred with the same brush, as it were, for claiming to be a part of that trad.

Ultimately, it all comes down to what each person finds valuable for him/herself. Having a label or a name to attach to one's practise can serve to give it form, make it seem more tangible and real than just an unnameable conglomerate of ideas and actions; but with defining a thing comes the potential for limiting it. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is a situational value judgment. Since personally I am constitutionally incapable of adhering to only one way, I'm probably not the most qualified to comment anyway!


~*~taijiya~*~

[Darkdale]

I've found that in many traditions there is a great deal of pressure put on people to conform to certain ways of thinking; however, that being said, I think that certain small tradition are established because the group of people share the same ways of thinking and it is a distraction to the group when someone comes along, adopts that "label" but then disagrees with that way of thinking. This is why there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations. While there are only a minimal number of beliefs you must have to be Christian, there are a fairly larger number of beliefs you must share to be a southern baptist. I think as pagan traditions develop, we'll see more specific denominations develop within them.

[Sierra]

1. I think the only restrictions ever placed on you come from yourself. I'm a strong believer in free will, and even if it seems like you are under pressure to conform, it's not going to kill you if you leave that pressure, and you can even if it seems hard.

2. Simply generalizations. Nobody can tell you what not to think.

3. I've never experienced being misunderstood or anything, as I like to generally keep my beliefs very private except in certain circumstances.

I think a lot of this debate stems from people caring too much what others think/feel about them. I'm a strong believer of not only free will, but creating your own reality, if somebody is bashing you or saying you shouldn't think this way or that way (and I'm talking spiritually here, I think we can all agree on certain things that are just wrong outside of the realm of spirituality), then don't let it effect you because it doesn't matter.

[Bix]

I don't think labels are such a bad thing. They bring people together in order to create communities and a sense of togetherness for people.

[Darkdale]

I don't think labels are such a bad thing. They bring people together in order to create communities and a sense of togetherness for people.

I think people just need to learn to develop new labels for new systems of thought and then things would work out better. That way you don't hear people arguing over what a true Christian or a true Wiccan really is.

[Agaliha]

1. Do you feel that religious labels restrict liberty of religious experience? In other words, does the pressure to adhere to religious dogmas within specific traditions limit an individuals ability to experience the full breadth of divinity?

No I don't. Know one is forcing you to believe in everything that emcompasses a faith. My Grandma consders herself Catholic, but yet she doesn't agree with having to comfess her sins to a priest-- she says it's between her and God. I think people have freedom to decided and do what feels right to them. I've known a Jew that ate pork, I mean...people decided what they believe and what they follow even with a religious label.

2. Do traditions and labels really restrict freedom of thought, or are they simply generalizations.

No, like I said above-- people are free to accept or reject aspects of a certian religious teaching that they label themself as. People can be a Chirstian, a Pagan, a Jew--The terms may be generalized, but it leaves room for specifics. What kind of Christian-- Orthodox. What type of Orthodox? Russian. Etc. I don't think they restrict anything.

3. Do the benefits of belonging to a tradition and the carrying of the label outweigh the annoyence of sometimes being misunderstood because of that label?

They only label I give myself is Pagan. I'm not Wiccan, I'm not following any developed path at this time. For me that's enough. Sure, I get annoyed at people thinking Pagans and such are devil worshippers-- but in the end I think: Why does it even matter what they think? So they say I'll go to hell...but the thing is-- I don't even believe in hell. One can follow a religion and tradition without even labeling themselves. Some people (like me) have beliefs that don't fit into cookie cutter definitions.

I don't know, I dont' really care or pay attention to labels.

[arctic splash]

1.) I think they can restrict liberty if you take them too seriously. But they can also point you in the right direction, help you find others who believe something similar, research beliefs. Without any religious labels whatsoever I'd have no idea where to look to research belief systems similar to my own.

2.) Again, I think that's true if you allow them to. People can get so tied down by a particular tradition that they stick with it even when it's no longer right for them. We can start to believe that our tradition is the right one and reject religious pluralism. We may start to feel guilt about exploring ideas that conflict with our particular tradition because we've identified ourselves with it. People have died for labels...

3.) Depends. It really depends on the individual. I personally don't place much stock in labels except as a general idea. They are the finger pointing to the moon, not the moon itself.

[Athena-Nadine]

I voted, "Traditions bring like-minded folk together. What's wrong with that?" But I'm of a specific religion and proud of it. :D

[kaosxmage]

Lables are just a way to identify and seperate. No problems right? Ha!

Walk into a random group of people and say, "Hi, I'm a wiccan, mage, asatruar, druid, whatever." You will have people greet you with whatever preconceived notions they have already built concerning your particular label. But who cares? Just change their mind or walk away. Or - argue vehemently that you are a cabbage. That's always fun.

Seriously, labels are just one of those unavoidable things in life and religion. It won't suffice to say you are simply spiritual - a person rarely is simply anything. Even more rare is the person that adheres to the very letter of a particular path. It's a very sticky situation and best washed down with something 40 proof or better.

I would have voted a simple other on the poll.

Cheers!

--Kaos

[Bix]

I think people just need to learn to develop new labels for new systems of thought and then things would work out better. That way you don't hear people arguing over what a true Christian or a true Wiccan really is.
Yeah, I understand what you mean by that. I guess people are just lazy and want to feel connected with something, instead of coming up with their own labels for something.

[Darkdale]

Yeah, I understand what you mean by that. I guess people are just lazy and want to feel connected with something, instead of coming up with their own labels for something.

For the most part, I agree. People see the image of a label and, without actually learning what that label really stands for, tries to adhere to that label without doing any of the work or behaving in regard to the meaning of that tradition. In other words, you get a lot pseudo-believers in every tradition. I think people need to recognize similarities and differences and allow their language to indicate those similarities and differences; isn't that what language was meant to do in the first place? I suppose the conformity instinct is overpowering. People want to belong to larger groups etc.

[ap Dafydd]

What's so wrong with labels? If we are something, then why pretend not to be? And if someone else is something else, why should they pretend not to be?

Otherwise, how do you avoid a world in which everything is new age splodge?

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[CoolJ]

We always create labels for others and ourselves. It's our lot in life as conscious beings.

[Darkdale]

We always create labels for others and ourselves. It's our lot in life as conscious beings.

lol pretty much.

[Renny]

I didnt vote for anything because... I don't care if other people use labels to describe themselves, but I don't think its right for me personally, i feel they limit me and I like to have a free spirituality.

[AlAskendir]

I've found that in many traditions there is a great deal of pressure put on people to conform to certain ways of thinking; however, that being said, I think that certain small tradition are established because the group of people share the same ways of thinking and it is a distraction to the group when someone comes along, adopts that "label" but then disagrees with that way of thinking. This is why there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations. While there are only a minimal number of beliefs you must have to be Christian, there are a fairly larger number of beliefs you must share to be a southern baptist. I think as pagan traditions develop, we'll see more specific denominations develop within them.

There's this 'thing' out there, with as much intensity as any of Bonewits' "Laws" of Magic, that I call 'Conceptual Momentum'.

As I envision it, behold a vast, somewhat inclined plane of dust and every thought of every human that has ever been or will ever be is as a drop of water thereon, flowing and leaving tracks, those that are similar flowing in the same track, in such a way that when any person who has decided to make use of Conceptual Momentum begins a particular sequence of thoughts, the flow of those thoughts is swifter down that track for every person who has ever had those thoughts before. It doesn't mean that any thought is truer than any other, just that some sequences are easier to think and have more potential impact on reality than others. One of the points of getting involved in someone else's tradition is to be trained in their thought-sequences that your own magicks may benefit from these potentials.


If you get that far and find that the result is insufficient for the investments you have made, you must make a new decision.

The question is, what are you seeking? Do you want reliable results from magicks works most, or interaction with the Gods and Goddesses, or comforting activities with friends, or what?

I'm saying that traditions are quite good for those who can make use of them, but not everyone can, and many people think that by creating a new group that does things a specific way they are creating a new tradition, and seek to get honor and be popular and respected for that, when most 'traditions' have been accorded that title not by their originators, but by those who have joined them after the originators are gone.

I see the value of a tradition not to be in that people who hear that I am in that tradition then know what my magickal beliefs and ways are, but that what I am seeking is best attained while discomforting me in the 'investment' required (time, energy, control over my ways of being, control over my ways of feeling, control over my ways of thinking, control over my ways of acting) the least.

But things are always changing, and need to be examined, re-examined and re-decided all of the time.

That said, it makes those that reliably stick to the tradition that they have decided to be in much more precious to all of us. They are pillars of the Infinite Worlde.

It's great to have labels, to be able to understand what others are doing or talking about doing, and to know that they understand what you are doing and talking about doing - - - but if a label doesn't fit you, make up one that does (and try to avoid question-begging terms like 'orthodox', 'heterodox',
'heretic', etc), even if you then have to reel off the definition of it every time.

For example, I am a Polydiohodist. Poly = many, idio = individual, hod = paths. I beleive that there are many individual paths, that no one path is 'true-er' than any other, and that things that are magickal don't have to be 'true' to be effective. I realize that all Wiccan are Pagans, but not all pagans are Wiccan. I realize that Witches are not necessarily Wiccan. I understand that some religions say that their followers should not engage in magick, but those same ones say that their followers should not rely on medicine more than they do on their religion, and that people who are arguing should settle that argument before they attend their religious festivities, and they have magickal things going on in their services. So here we get into unclarity, contradiction, and hypocracy - - - things I feel that at least Americans and probably all of 'Western Civilization' are overloaded on. Most people who become Pagans, become Pagans in order to get away from one of these overloads, but then, because we are all humans, politics, gossiping, unclarity, contradiction, and hypocracy spring into existence whenever three or more of us are involved.

So to me, the labels question is a cover for a deeper question, a question about the process of being one variety or another of a Pagan (or Heathen, or whatever) - - -how do we identify, avoid, and reduce the politics, pressures, gossiping, unclarity, contradiction, and hypocracy in what we are doing and in the groups we are involved in?

[Lady Valkyrie]

Labels are not a bad thing in and of themselves. We as humans need to be able to compartmentalize people, places, things, and experiences. It helps us identify commonalities we may have with one another. However, If we base all our opinions and judgements upon Labels then lables can be a very bad thing. This is when labels can cause division. This is when labels define a person instead of a person's heart, mind, and actions defining themselves. There must be a fine balance in which we use labels.

[SSanf]

Personally, I'm for 'em.

[Jenne]

I voted with the majority on this poll, but I'd like to add a caveat. When labels are applied to others, they are often done without alot of thought or research. They are sometimes done as a knee-jerk reaction or spur-of-the-moment first impression.

That being said, I think it would be best to *ask* someone how they think they are representing themselves, what their intent to convey is, then go from there.

As self-labelling goes, one has to be aware of the repercussions of doing so. That has so many ramifications, I'm just too tired to go into them all. LOL