Samhain not the Celtic new year

[IvyWitch]

Someone posted this article and I found it fairly interesting.

http://bonrhys.idx.com.au/explosion.htm


The idea of Samhain being a 'new year' for the Celts was first put forward in the late nineteenth century by D'Arbois de Jubainville and Sir John Rhys (The Hibbert Lectures, 1886. Williams and Norgate, London) based on research into the Celtic fire-feasts in myth and tradition that showed this feast at the end of Summer to figure prominently in Irish literature and by interpertations of Roman reports of Celtic culture and comparisons with other cultures, noteably the Greek culture. Over time, the contention of the Celtic year beginning with the wintewr was reinforced on the basis of the similarity of the words "Samhain" and "Samon" found at the start of the Celtic (Coligny) calendar, and a three-day long feast held in Samon, the "Trinvx Samonos sindiv". Both lines of reasoning are flawed, and these will be illustrated with full original quotes to demonstrate this.

[ancestral_lee]

oh well, im not bothered either way. i see the year as cyclical so it doesnt really have a beginning or end.

[Agaliha]

That is totally weird because everything (literally) that is out there online and in books and even videos say Samhain was the New year. I've never heard of that theory...

Witchvox says:


The Celtic peoples called the time between Samhain (pronounced "SOW-in" in Ireland, SOW-een in Wales, "SAV-en" in Scotland or even "SAM-haine" in non Gaelic speaking countries) and Brigid's Day "the period of little sun." Thus, Samhain is often named the "Last Harvest" or "Summer's End".
While almost all Celtic based traditions recognize this Holiday as the end of the "old" year, some groups do not celebrate the coming of the "new year" until Yule. Some consider the time between Samhain and Yule as a time which does not even exist on the Earthly plane. The "time which is no time" was considered in the "old days" to be both very magickal and very dangerous. So even today, we celebrate this Holiday with a mixture of joyous celebration and 'spine tingling" reverence.
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=holidays&id=2203 (http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=holidays&id=2203)


I searched "Samon festival" and got this:



Festival of the dead, which has survived to the present in popular culture as Halloween, a night of trick-or-treating by children and others dressed in costumes of fantasy and the supernatural. All Hallows Eve is observed the night of October 31, followed on November 1 by All Hallows Day, also called All Hallowmas, All Saints' Day and All Soul's Day. The ancient Celts called the festival Samhain (pronounced sow' an) and observed it to celebrate the onset of winter and the beginning of the Celtic New Year; "samhain" means "end of summer." Ireland the festival was known as Samhein, or La Samon, the Feast of the Sun. Scotland, the celebration was known as Hallowe'en. Samhain was a solar festival marked by sacred fire and fire rituals. During the height of the Druids, the priestly caste of the Celts, all fires except those of the Druids were extinguished on Samhain. Householders were levied a fee for the holy fire which burned at their altars.
http://www.willoughbyontheweb.com/halloween/festival_of_the_dead.htm (http://www.willoughbyontheweb.com/halloween/festival_of_the_dead.htm)


So according to this they are different words for the same or similar Festivals...?
I'm not sure yet, this is interesting though
Maybe ask in the Druid board??

[Greybird]

That is totally weird because everything (literally) that is out there online and in books and even videos say Samhain was the New year. I've never heard of that theory...

I think that is the point of the article - they are claiming that the belief that Samhain was the Celtic new year is based on an error in scholarship more than a century ago. Seeing as how modern scholarship - everything from reconstructionist religions to TV documentaries - is descended from old scholarship, if the author is correct, then it is 'everything (literally)' that is wrong as a result. Such things would either need to be accepted as inaccurate or revised.

The author, at the end states, "Celticism will benefit from a robust discussion of this matter." I think that is his goal - he's pointing out an error in scholarship which the experts here and there can then look into and examine, as well as examining the impact on ideas descended from the faulty scholarship.

I'm not expert enough to comment on the content, but kudos to the author for being willing publish something that he believes when it goes so strongly in the face of what is so commonly accepted. Reexamining our own conclusions is vital in any field, from religion to history.

[Moon Flower]

That appears to be a very scholarly essay, and will take more than the casual skim through that I have just done.

However, just a couple of thoughts.

First, this could very well stand as an example of how, if enough people say something often enough, it becomes accepted as fact.

Secondly. Although I have never questioned previously the belief that Samhain was the Celtic new year, it never felt right to me.
I do not, in any real way, follow the celtic year. I may have accepted as a given that Samhain was the Celtic new year, because I was told it was so, but it never had any actual inpact on my life.
However, I always felt that for me, the natural beginning of the year would be in February, around the time of Imbolc.
As this is when the earth seems to be born anew. The first flowers appear, usually snowdrops, quickly followed by other things.
If the earth was a person (and it may well be a single living organism) then Samhain would appear to be its old age, when everything is dying back, going back into the ground.
Imbolc appears to me to be the earth as a young child, taking it's first breasth after a long sleep.

The other natural point would be the Winter solstice, when the Sun begins its cycle anew. Growing from the tiny days of winter, to the long hot ones of summer (and them waning again into winter.)
But I feel more, really, for the cycle of the earth than that of the sun. (A personal feeling only, of course)

However, it would seem that I am wrong on both counts. (according to that article) Which would place the start of the year at Beltane.
Which, to me, would make more sense than Samhain.

But in the end, as has already been said, the year is a cycle, without begining or end.
And I will continue to feel that the earth is born at Imbolc, and the earth will continue to do her thing, and not really care at all how I feel about it!

Thank you for linking that article. It was very interesting and I would not have read it otherwise.

[raven grimassi]

While the article is interesting, it seems to me to be trying to prove a negative. Much of the author's theory relies on an "absence of mention" as constituting proof. Just because a specific mention does not appear, does not equate to non-existence.

Scholar James MacKillop (Dictonary of Celtic Mythology, Oxford University Press, 1998) mentions "that to the ancient Gauls the period of dark precedes the light, supporting the commonly held belief that Samhain is the equivalent of New Year's Day".

This addresses a widespread ancient theme that things begin in procreation (the first darkness). The seed hidden in the darkness beneath the soil, and newborn issuing forth from the dark womb are some related themes. In this view, Samhain seems to fit as the beginning of the year from a primitive perspective.

Just my two cents worth.

[IvyWitch]

But, if dark comes before light, then wouldn't it make more sense that the new year would fall on the day with the shortest amount of light, i.e. the winter solstice and not samhain?

[raven grimassi]

But, if dark comes before light, then wouldn't it make more sense that the new year would fall on the day with the shortest amount of light, i.e. the winter solstice and not samhain?

It seems that the ancient focus here was the birth of the sun or sun god, who seemingly rose from beneath the earth. This ties into Underworld themes, and from ancient writings we find a belief that the sun returned to the Underworld, it only visited the world of mortal kind.

I assume that to the primitive mind, the idea of the seed in the soil or the baby in the womb was something that preceded sprout/birth (there was a period of time before the event). So it may be that Samhain marked that time in order to fit the chronology of birthing at Yule.

[Greybird]

In my mind, Samhain has always been the new year, not because of any particular beginning, but because it was the end of the old year. It is the time when plants die, animals of all sorts hybernate (in lots of cultures many were thought to die or otherwise cease to be until spring). Nature essentially seems to die at Samhain, and along with the decline of the sun, really, to me, this has marked the end of the year.

As Raven said, if the birth was at Yule, then the true beginning (the quiet promise of future life, IE effectively pregnancy) may very well have been thought to have begun after Samhain.

[ap Dafydd]

At the end of the day, you either accept the basis of the Samhain = new year theory or you don't, if you don't then you have to put something else in its place.

AFAIK, the main literary source for Samhain being the start of the year is Cormac's Glossary which has a list of seasons and puts it first on the list. Doesn't seem unreasonable to infer from that that the start of the list is the start of the year.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

But, if dark comes before light, then wouldn't it make more sense that the new year would fall on the day with the shortest amount of light, i.e. the winter solstice and not samhain?

No, because there isn't evidence that the Celtic tribes celebrated the solstices or equinoxes (although I've heard that there is a possibility of evidence among the tribes that eventually became the Welsh). By far that vast majority of Celtic Recons and Traditionalists do not celebrate these astronomical events.

As for the article, I've read it before. In fact I believe that it has been posted at MW before and there was a whole discussion about it. It's interesting, but I'm not so sure about it. I'd have to go back and reread it again to pull out the points that I question.

[misschief]

But, if dark comes before light, then wouldn't it make more sense that the new year would fall on the day with the shortest amount of light, i.e. the winter solstice and not samhain?it really depends on how far back we're going with it. the actual day has changed throughout time, the idea hasn't changed much, being from one of those traditions, i consider the date a small insignificant detail. what matters is that everything dies, and everything lives. *shrug*

[eala]

Just for what it is worth as this ends up being an argument in semantics and personal views,
I tend to measure days by the nights (ie: the day ends at sunset). It makes sense to me that the year ends at 'sunset' too.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Just for what it is worth as this ends up being an argument in semantics and personal views,
I tend to measure days by the nights (ie: the day ends at sunset). It makes sense to me that the year ends at 'sunset' too.

It also makes sense for the Celtic tribes as they started their days when it got dark.

[skilly-nilly]

It also makes sense for the Celtic tribes as they started their days when it got dark.

The start of the day/start of the year argument is compelling, but for me the beginning of the Dark Half isn't 'new' enough to make it work for me. One could make the same equation and perceive the day as ending at sundown, rather than begining......

I celebrate the 'new' year :yayhawaii at Imbolc, but that's a personal choice having as much to do with the deep need for a February (the hideous month) holiday as ewes being in milk and lambing, since I have no sheep myself.

I have always considered the period between Thüle and Imbolc (yes, thank you, I know those names come from 2 different cultures) as being no-time, because I perceive the Old God as dead and the Young King as not-yet-born. Interesting to extend the no-time period alllll the way from Hallowe'e'n to Imbolc (yes, thank you, blah blah blah _tomatoe_ )

That's a long time to be between guiding Deities, though.

Just as an aside, I perceive the Young King born at Imbolc to have been conceived on May-Day (9 months earlier).

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

BTW, skilly used the more appropriate term of sundown and not dark - you see I was having a "can't think of proper word" moment and decided that dark was close enough.

I personally also prefer Imbolc as the New Year celebration, even though it's not historically accurate as far as we can tell, and the other McTats would likely smack me with a frozen fish for it.

[Bryony]

No, because there isn't evidence that the Celtic tribes celebrated the solstices or equinoxes (although I've heard that there is a possibility of evidence among the tribes that eventually became the Welsh). By far that vast majority of Celtic Recons and Traditionalists do not celebrate these astronomical events.

As for the article, I've read it before. In fact I believe that it has been posted at MW before and there was a whole discussion about it. It's interesting, but I'm not so sure about it. I'd have to go back and reread it again to pull out the points that I question.

So what was Stonehenge for? It's proven to be a calendar that measures the solstices and equinoxes.

[ancestral_lee]

Stonehenge 101 : it wasnt built by the celts and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion.

point 2 - samhain isnt at a solstice or an equinox.

[Ivy Artemisia]

I celebrate the new year at Yule. Samhain for me is the end of the year.... then the time between Samhain and Yule is a non-time, a time for reflection, a dark time. That's just the way that I see it. I never could see Samhain as the new year, it goes against my grain. :)

[pyewacket]

The month of october is when everything really has wound up for the year..its when the weather gets colder and darker..fruit has long since gone and crops long since harvested and stored and animals hibernate or getting ready to.
31st october used to be the official end of the year..taxes were finished on this day and it was a perfect day to marry.

The last of the autumn leaves usually drop around this time..death is all around with the promise of a new season..

As for Stonehenge...well theyve actually said that the way the calendar is marked by sunrise..everyone should be facing the otherway.....its for the winter solstice......
Ground buried in ice or snow...dark..wet..cold....no food for cattle etc..many had to be slaughtered because theyd die and the others for food. The darkest day..the longest night..not sure if the light would come again..if the sun would return...so boughs of greenery decorated and in the dwellings...and fires ke[t burning so the sun would see how it was needed and adored etc.

Until the promise of spring was well on its way.

so samahain and all souls day..day of the dead..worldwide..not just celtic....but where did it all begin..no one knows but its nice to theorise..

[MercysFallen]

Does it really mater anyway? Most Christian holidays started out as something else. It doesn't make them any less valid.

Ren

[Serenity's LostSoul]

However, I always felt that for me, the natural beginning of the year would be in February, around the time of Imbolc.
As this is when the earth seems to be born anew. The first flowers appear, usually snowdrops, quickly followed by other things.
If the earth was a person (and it may well be a single living organism) then Samhain would appear to be its old age, when everything is dying back, going back into the ground.
Imbolc appears to me to be the earth as a young child, taking it's first breasth after a long sleep.

The other natural point would be the Winter solstice, when the Sun begins its cycle anew. Growing from the tiny days of winter, to the long hot ones of summer (and them waning again into winter.)
But I feel more, really, for the cycle of the earth than that of the sun. (A personal feeling only, of course)


Samhain never made any sense to me, and so I adopted Winter Soltice as my 'new year'...but now that I read your thoughts, Imbolc does make more sense than any of the others. Especially when one thinks of it in terms of a baby being born; a baby is fresh and new and learning from day 1. He/she isn't kept in the dark for 3 months or so until 'the light' is back, right? (somehow that analogy makes sense in my head. *L*)

Thanks for the insight! :)

[IvyWitch]

Does it really mater anyway? Most Christian holidays started out as something else. It doesn't make them any less valid.

Ren

Well, actually yes it does, and not just from a historical standpoint.

[MercysFallen]

Well, actually yes it does, and not just from a historical standpoint.


Well, personally I don't think it does. Everything religious is man made. Historic "fact" have been proven wrong before. Nothing new. A Christian is still going to celebrate Christmas on December 25 even though Jesus was born around late spring.

Ren

[Exloration_La]

While the article is interesting, it seems to me to be trying to prove a negative. Much of the author's theory relies on an "absence of mention" as constituting proof. Just because a specific mention does not appear, does not equate to non-existence.

Scholar James MacKillop (Dictonary of Celtic Mythology, Oxford University Press, 1998) mentions "that to the ancient Gauls the period of dark precedes the light, supporting the commonly held belief that Samhain is the equivalent of New Year's Day".

This addresses a widespread ancient theme that things begin in procreation (the first darkness). The seed hidden in the darkness beneath the soil, and newborn issuing forth from the dark womb are some related themes. In this view, Samhain seems to fit as the beginning of the year from a primitive perspective.

Just my two cents worth.

That makes sense. Thank you for that

[Nitefalle]

It's an interesting academic point, but not necessary to my personal practice, even though I follow a Celtic path. I do not live by the Iron Age or Coligny calendar and while I can recognize and appreciate that my ancestors celebrated a different sort of year, I still honor the Gregorian Calendar's definition of new year being the last day of December. In the Big Picture of things, I view the time between Samhain and Imbolc as "dreamtime", when we draw inwards and catch our breath from summer and autumn, store up energy so that when spring comes we can be ready for all the activity that ensues.

[MariThorn]

I would suppose that the relevance of this all would be regarding whether you felt that the year really ends. I, personally, believe that it is truly a Wheel, and those don't have endings and beginnings, just constant flow. As for a child in the womb, that once again depends on your belief regarding when life starts. If you believe it starts at conception, then the new year would truly start at Beltaine. Personally, I see the period between October 31 and December 21 as a period of rest and meditation. The Earth is gearing up during her last trimester so to speak for the birth of the light half of the year. I don't see Samhain as the end of anything except as the last Harvest.

Just my two cents

[omar]

The purpose of the bond fires at Samhain was to INVITE the SUN GOD back. This means bringing in the New Year.