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Kadynas
November 16th, 2001, 04:11 AM
I have the formulas to figure out all of the Arabic Parts...but I'm not really sure of a practical way to apply them to a chart. I mean the Part of Fortune is practically the only one still used! I can't seem to find any information on what these points in the chart were originally used for...were they more for horary type charts than natal? From the list I have some would seem to go either way... An old astrolog program I had spit out all the formulas for me, and I've actually sat down and figured out what they would all be in my chart...(I get /very/ bored sometimes!) But does anyone have any info on these things? I'd really appreciate it... :D

Methanespirit
November 16th, 2001, 07:47 AM
Kadynas, I havn't heard of the Arabic parts in over 30 years! That such ideas are very traditional. I believe the concept of the Arabic parts is not used much today, because for the most part, after doing some research into their usefulness back in 1970, is that they are inconsistant in their delineations. Any system that yields in consistant results is not a valid method of delineating the skies, in this writer's opinion. I believe they were intended for natal (genelethliacal) Astrology. I have found that studying the Sidereal Zodiac and the systems associated with that far exceed in usefulness any traditional teachings such as the Arabic parts. in fact, I rejected the Tropical Zodiac almost immediately because of my fundamental knowlege of Astronomy which was a hobby when being about 12 years old. That it was obviously noticed that the Tropical Zodiacal signs did not fit into the same place in the sky as the constellations bearing the same names. This fundamental discrepancy tipped me off as something being amiss with the modern zodiac.

.........Methane (CH4)

Kadynas
November 17th, 2001, 03:55 AM
I had once heard that the Arabic Parts were used to do the natal charts of the Sultans, to show his life path or something. I'm one of those people who finds anything obscure extrememly interesting! :lol: I still work with the Tropical Zodiac myself, because that what I learned with and what I feel most comfortable with.

What is the real difference between Tropical and Sidereal? I know it changes the Sun Signs a bit... by degrees or something. I think I once heard it had to do with the progression of equinoxes or something...like tropical deals with a fixed location of the zodiac whereas the sidereal moves or something...or am I totally off? Just eternally curious, as always. :lol:

But what I was really trying to find out is what these parts were supposed to mean...take for instance the Part of Art. I'm an artist, so I'll go with something I know. It says 01 Sagittarius for me and it falls in my 6th house. So what does that tell me? It doesn't really show whether or not I have any talent, whether it will make me famous or what not. I'm just curious as to how they were interpreted...

Methanespirit
November 17th, 2001, 08:36 AM
Kadynas; Let me start out by stating that most artists have a Mercury/Neptune configuration in their nativity, that is accented in some manner, usually aspected to the Moon or on the natal Midheaven, and often, to the Novienic Moon as well. In an example case, using the Sidereal Zodiac, there is natal Mercury at 4*34' Capricorn and Neptune at 2*44' Sagittarius, The Moon at 0* 17' 35" Cancer, and this allows a postion for the novienic Moon (the point of life prophesy) of 2* 38' 15" Scorpio. Primarily, they have the Moon/Mercury opposition accented by the Novienic Moon with Neptune residing in patile aspect! This follows the same pattern as perfectly as is seen in other artist's charts. In consideration of the aspects to the Novienic Moon, consider anything of importance that lies witnin a few degrees behind - at multiple of 30 degrees to this prophetic Moon and especially any element that is quartered to it. In fact, if you did a Novienic equivalent of this natal, it would show up even more, even though none of these important elements are angular in the birth chart. Since the Novienic Moon travels about 120 degrees in 24 hours, this tells you were destined to be an artist and the birth time had to be specifically at that moment in order for this to come about , becuase of the quickly moving- ephemeral feature of the Novienic Moon. This also verifies the accuracy of the birth time. I believe you can see the close connection between these elements. It is only in the Sidereal Zodiac that these show up as they do, through the-all important Sidereal feature of the Novienic Moon. Any capable Sidereal Astrologer, seeing this arrangement, would automatically be suspicious of having the nativity of an aritist.

Now concerning the difference between the two Zodiacs, I have written an extensive post on this matter dated Aug 22, 2001 entitled "Basic Astrology #3, Right Ascention". If you look back to this instructional post on this forum it will explain the difference between the two. Also I have explained the differences on a post of 11/09 (?) entitled "sun/moon, huh?" by Phoenix. If for any reason you do not understand any item contained therein, please let me know either through a PM or via this forum.

..............Methane (CH4)

Kadynas
November 18th, 2001, 05:34 AM
Really? That is so interesting! So I was born to be an artist? Cool. My love is an artist and a poet...wonder what his chart looks like in sidereal? :lol: I'm really gonna have to look into the sidereal side of things. :D I'm not sure about what exactly noveinic is though...and did you have my birthtime? (9:01am btw) I don't know I think I might've had it in another thread. But I'm definitely gonna look at those other threads. But one question? Why do these aspects you're talking about only show up in sidereal? :huh:

Methanespirit
November 18th, 2001, 10:24 AM
Kadynas; they will be in the same aspected positions, no matter what zodiac is used, however, only the Sidereal allows the proper sign placement of the elements, and the accurate positioning of the prophetic-point -Novienic Moon. There are many elements and postions in each natal chart. the question is, which of these are going to be the most important? Any one who has studied astrology for any length of time knows that there are usually some obscure position of an element that comes out as the main theme of the personality. The novienic Moon reveals this hidden information. For an example in my natal, the novienic Moon accents Mercury at l9* Aquarius, even though there are other planetary positions scattered through the nativity.

This is because the Sidereal Zodiac's point of reference is not the continually changing Spring Equinox, but rather the Solar Apex. This allows for the use of certain bright stars being used as pointers (Fiducials) in the Zodiac. For example, Antares, the brightest in Scorpio, to be 15* 03' of that Zodiacal sign. However placing this star in the Tropical Zodiac yields 9* 48.3' degrees Sagittarius, and this tropical placment is continually changing.

The Solar Apex is that point in the heaven, between the constellations of Sagittaruis and Capricorn, in which the entire solar system appears to be heading. This is the true fiducial for the Astrological system, not the vernal equinox.

The proper position for the Novienic Moon (originally, an ancient Indian system) is dependant on an unchanging zodiac, as any errors in its accurate placement is multiplied by 9. This is because the 0 degrees of Capricorn (the Solar Apex) is equivalent to 0 degrees Taurus, and each succeding degree is equivalent to 9 degrees in the Novienic scale. Therefore, 1 degree of Capricorn is 9 degrees Taurus, 2 degrees of Capricorn is 18 degrees Taurus, and so on around the Zodiac. I have the Novienic tables and they are invaluable in determining the prophetic point of any chart. Actually, you can calculate them by use of a 4-funcition calculator, using a base position for 0 degrees of each sign. If you want this information I can PM it to you.

Now , calculating any Sidereal chart, which is done in the same manner as the Tropical, requires the additional use of the Synetic Vernal Point (SVP) for each chart element. This value of zodiacal correction, from the Tropical to the Sidereal, is ADDITIVE, and then you set the answer back one zodiacal sign. You can obtain an ephemeris that gives this corrrection value once a month, if you do not already have one. However, you can purchase Sidereal Ephemerides, if you want.

For an example of the SVP's use, today's (0 hrs UT) Tropical Solar positon in the Tropical ephemeris is 25* 42' 29" Scorpio, and the SVP value for this day is 5* 14' 19". By adding these two you get a Sidereal position of 30* 56" 38", or subtract 30 degrees, if the answer is more than 30 degrees, and keep in it in the same sign, which equals to 0* 56' 38" Sidereal Scorpio. Thrusday's (11/15) Tropical Sun was 22* 41' 00" Scorpio. Add the same SVP value yields; 27* 55' 19" Libra.

Another demanding use for an unchanging Zodiac is in the calculation of Return Charts, Solar and Lunar as well as zodical sign-ingress charts. These prophetic charts are of immense practical use, but only accurate in the Sidereal Zodiac, because of the ever-changing Tropical Zodiac, does not allow for accurate results, especially as time goes by causing incremental discrepencies.

I hope this helps you get started.

............Methane (CH4).

Litha
November 19th, 2001, 01:15 AM
Arabic Parts are still studied by Medieval and Hellenistic specialites of astrology. Robert Zoller and Rob Hand are two leading astrologers that use the Lots frequently.