Trad Witchcraft

[MercysFallen]

Not sure any info was posted about it so here is a link, THis is what I practice: Traditional Witchcraft (http://www.geocities.com/echo879/)

Ren

[CleftOfLight]

Very interesting and I liked it a lot.Seems right up my ally.But I was just curios,could you be into the Kabbalah and still be a traditional witch?

[MercysFallen]

Sure, I know a few Trads who still hold on to there Christian beliefs.
But still feel that connection with nature.

Bex

[IvyWitch]

After readoing through the site I can honestly say that there isn't much on there that makes it so different from "modern" witchcraft that it gets to be labeled "traditional".

Years ago there was this amazing website on crosswinds that was about *real* traditional witchcraft. I saved a lot of articles form the site, and I read a bunch of websites that were supposedly about traditional witchcraft, and it seemed to me like the site was nothing more than making witchcraft more "scary" and rigid to distance themselves from those "awful fluffy bunnies".

[ancestral_lee]

i agree with Ivywitch, theres nothing of that is different to everyday witchcraft that pervades pagan culture.

does your particular lineage go back more than 50years?

i also noticed you said witchcraft is a religion - it isnt, its a practice, Wicca is a religion hence you have wiccan witches or even christian witches.

the other thing is that you mentioned witchcraft derives from the celts - no it doesnt.

[Ben Gruagach]

I thought the distinction drawn between "eclectics" and "traditional" witches was rather interesting -- and not exactly correct.

Whether one chooses to follow a particular cultural set of deities (i.e. choosing Egyptian, or Celtic, or Greek, etc.) has nothing to do with whether one is eclectic. Eclectic means drawing from a variety of sources. In witchcraft, people who call themselves eclectic usually do so because they haven't decided to restrict themselves to a specific sect or denomination such as Gardnerian Wicca, or the Cochrane-derived 1734 denomination, for example.

Personally I think there are very few people who practice a magical form of spirituality today (at least in the English-speaking community) who are not really eclectic in some form. Gardnerian Wiccans for instance draw on bits and pieces of Celtic lore, but also from Greek and Roman lore, the Kabbalah (which is a Jewish and Christian philosophy), and Egyptian magical practice. Ideas like karma come from India (probably through the influence of Theosophy), and a lot comes from Freemasonry.

The magick described in all of the grimoires that are available (Agrippa's books, Dee's work, the Key of Solomon, among others) are also clearly eclectic works as they draw from multiple sources.

One other nitpicky thing in the linked webpage that is rather debatable is the claim that only non-Wiccan "traditional witches" have the right to call themselves witches. Sorry the author of that site feels that way, but this is akin to Catholics telling Protestants that they aren't really Christians.

Wiccans, and even Satanists, have as much right to use the word witch to describe themselves as any of the rest of us. None of us have exclusive ownership of such a generic term. If we want exclusive ownership of a title or term then we have to invent a unique term rather than just adopt a generic one that has already been in use as a generic term for hundreds of years.

[Seshata]

I would also like to add to a point made on the website. We cannot totally rely on the details given by 'witches' during inquisitorial times. These were statements made under duress (many having suffered torture and sleep depravation etc), also in some countries (eg spain) 'witches' were also people who were Jewish or converso families and also Muslim then anyone else (at later dates) ..

As has been stated above 'witchcraft' cannot be seen as being a purely 'celtic' invention - equivalent 'types' that can go under that title were mentioned in ancient Rome and other cultures.

As to simplicity in ritual - as Wicans within an Initiatory path, each coven is independent - thus there are those who work both styles, simple and also 'facier' (eg High magick) ... And as I was taught when I started, magically all I need is myself, the tools etc are 'extras'.

Life linked Rites of Passage are a key factor to many worldwide religions. Thus, if you are following a 'traditional' path it seems interesting that you do not have this as part of your traditional way.

From what I was taught, the 'Rede' is not a set law but sound advice, it's just a 'stop and think' then it's pretty much your responsibility on how you act but take responsibility for your actions whatever they are. Thus Wica is not necessarily against curses or hexes (there are certain illnesses which I will curse), but again, each coven is independent and it also depends on how you were taught.

In Wica the Esbats are also of importance as well as the Sabbats. Also the view is that you never stop learning and that the training that takes however long to achieve the degrees does not mean that you know it all.

IMHO I feel that sometimes there is a misunderstanding of Wica (with this I'm referring to Initiated into Gardnerian or Alexandrian etc), not all that is in a BOS is published, after all then everything within a hived off coven would have to be there with all the additions that are made by the priesthood.

An interesting site, and I look forward to hearing more about your particular path.

BB

Seshata

[MercysFallen]

Traditional Witchcraft does not mean old. It just means it is based more on folk practices and not ritualistic as Wicca has become. I don't agree with everything on the site I just posted it to give a breakdown of what I believe.
LIke how I don't use dieties, I don't cast circles.
Sorry if you were offended by it. But sadly I have to live with the assumption many have that all Witches/Pagans are Wiccan. I have seen many website that say the Pentacle is a Wiccan symbol only!!(even Christians used it at one time) Even the guy at the local accult store assumed my friend and I were Wiccan. He was telling us about a midnight sale he was having and said he was only telling his Wiccan costomers about it. Now he is a teacher who holds many workshops. He should know that not every pagan is Wiccan.
Anyway sorry for posting it.

Ren

[Seshata]

Sorry if you were offended by it. But sadly I have to live with the assumption many have that all Witches/Pagans are Wiccan. I have seen many website that say the Pentacle is a Wiccan symbol only!!(even Christians used it at one time) Even the guy at the local accult store assumed my friend and I were Wiccan. He was telling us about a midnight sale he was having and said he was only telling his Wiccan costomers about it. Now he is a teacher who holds many workshops. He should know that not every pagan is Wiccan.
Anyway sorry for posting it.

I wasn't offended by it - it takes alot more than that to offend me. :)

I can understand frustrations with people's presumptions - I'm personally into trying to clarify and understand where others are coming from and have friends and people that at times I magically work with who are from many traditions and paths which reside under the banner of 'paganism'.

Don't apologise for posting it - it gave a look at someone's viewpoint and you were trying to explain a little about your path. I don't see a problem with that, what imho I feel is that it is a point to start an interesting discussion and understand and learn from each other and possibly sort out a little of the misconceptions there are on all sides about history and background to ideas of different traditions. :)

Take this as an opportunity to understand a little about other paths and that, for example, Wica may not be quite as it is portrayed out there. As to what the person at the shop said to you, it was more the case of him being in error for presuming that you were either Wican or Wiccan inspired, you could have been more of a 'general pagan'.. And you're right about the pentacle being used in christianity, in fact in London there are a few (I think its 5) churches with a pentacle window. :)

BB

Seshata

BB

Seshata

[IvyWitch]

Truthfully it doesn't even sound like folk witchcraft. The only major differences between what's on that website and modern Paganism is "it's sometimes OK to cast curses" and "we don't believe in karma".

Really there are many websites on folk customs and hearthcraft than this one.

[Seshata]

Truthfully it doesn't even sound like folk witchcraft. The only major differences between what's on that website and modern Paganism is "it's sometimes OK to cast curses" and "we don't believe in karma".
Really there are many websites on folk customs and hearthcraft than this one.

Yup, good point IvyWitch, also if someone wants to look at folk customs there are some really good books out there on folk customs that you could possibly use too.

[Veritas contra mundo]

Sorry if you were offended by it.

I don't think anyone was offended ... I know I wasn't. It's interesting, but I would be willing to bet that it's post-Wiccan in origin.


But sadly I have to live with the assumption many have that all Witches/Pagans are Wiccan. I have seen many website that say the Pentacle is a Wiccan symbol only!!(even Christians used it at one time)

:lol: Yeah, we have a few morons in the Wiccan end of the Pagan community.

At the same time, there are enough similarities between the praxis described on the website and Wiccan praxis that I have to wonder who influenced whom. Gardner's Wicca had very little to do with folkloric "witchcraft"--it was far closer related to Ceremonial magic and speculative Freemasonry, and a lot of Wiccans have followed in that path.

The authors of the website may specifically claim that they're not Wiccan ... but in some ways, they quack like the duck they say they're not.


Anyway sorry for posting it.

No need for apologies--any point of view can be interesting.

[MercysFallen]

Thanks for you feedback. Sometimes you never know how one may take it. Like I said I don't agree with EVERYTHING on that site.
I have studied other paths. I was even Wiccan for about a year till I descoved it wasn't the path for me. I also practic Folk magic as in Hoodoo. I have studied Voodoo ( just to learn I don't claim to practice it) I have a bit of a backgound in Italian Witchcraft (again not a religion) My grandmother and one aunt practiced it but the were indeed Catholic :-)
But you are right with the assumptions. I was even told I wasn't a real witch because I chose to vere away from Wicca.
I have in fact had people fear me because if something isn't "all love & light" you must be on the dark side! LOL
Anyway thanks for the input.

Ren

[Ben Gruagach]

Any time I hear someone say that "a REAL witch does..." or "only a REAL Wiccan does..." my BS-detector goes off pretty loudly.

If you do a search here at MysticWicks for the term "traditional witchcraft" you'll find we've had some really involved discussions on the topic. Like many things, on the surface it might appear pretty simple but as soon as you scratch that surface to look underneath there's a whole lot to explore!

Don't worry about whether others are offended -- if anyone is actually offended, they'll say so up front. We're pretty good here about discussing different points of view without getting our underwear into knots.

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

I thought the distinction drawn between "eclectics" and "traditional" witches was rather interesting -- and not exactly correct.

Whether one chooses to follow a particular cultural set of deities (i.e. choosing Egyptian, or Celtic, or Greek, etc.) has nothing to do with whether one is eclectic. Eclectic means drawing from a variety of sources. In witchcraft, people who call themselves eclectic usually do so because they haven't decided to restrict themselves to a specific sect or denomination such as Gardnerian Wicca, or the Cochrane-derived 1734 denomination, for example.

Personally I think there are very few people who practice a magical form of spirituality today (at least in the English-speaking community) who are not really eclectic in some form. Gardnerian Wiccans for instance draw on bits and pieces of Celtic lore, but also from Greek and Roman lore, the Kabbalah (which is a Jewish and Christian philosophy), and Egyptian magical practice. Ideas like karma come from India (probably through the influence of Theosophy), and a lot comes from Freemasonry.

The magick described in all of the grimoires that are available (Agrippa's books, Dee's work, the Key of Solomon, among others) are also clearly eclectic works as they draw from multiple sources.

One other nitpicky thing in the linked webpage that is rather debatable is the claim that only non-Wiccan "traditional witches" have the right to call themselves witches. Sorry the author of that site feels that way, but this is akin to Catholics telling Protestants that they aren't really Christians.

Wiccans, and even Satanists, have as much right to use the word witch to describe themselves as any of the rest of us. None of us have exclusive ownership of such a generic term. If we want exclusive ownership of a title or term then we have to invent a unique term rather than just adopt a generic one that has already been in use as a generic term for hundreds of years.

I think this article (http://www.thecrookedheath.com/witch.htm), brings up some interesting points in regaurds to using the term "witch". while i think the term "witch" at least as it's used today in the pagan community is a very broad one, not limited to a particular group, I think that the article at least may present a slightly different view to the entire debate.

[Alkhemia]

Seriously, I went into a coma after reading this on that site (the Geocities site);

"Traditional Witchcraft to the best of our knowledge pre-dates almost all of the other known religions of the planet and dates back to the paleolithic period, (about 40,000 years ago,)"

Maybe it got enlightening after that, but I probably will never know. (And kinda doubt it.) :lol:


Alkhemia

[Veritas contra mundo]

Seriously, I went into a coma after reading this on that site;

"Traditional Witchcraft to the best of our knowledge pre-dates almost all of the other known religions of the planet and dates back to the paleolithic period, (about 40,000 years ago,)"

Maybe it got enlightening after that, but I probably will never know. (And kinda doubt it.) :lol:

Eh ... it got a little better, but not terribly much. The History Myth does serve a purpose ... but when people forget that it is a myth, that purpose kind of gets lost in the shuffle.

[MercysFallen]

The Word Witch is translated in different languges(sp?) English is not the first spoken word. I know for a fact Witchcraft was practice elsewere besides England & Germany!!! IN fact durring inquisition the church left many village "wise women" alone in Italy for most of it. They have even found artwork on a prison wall in Palarmo Italy proving the woman locked up was a witch There ARE Italian Witches, They ARE called Strega, Valperga is German for Witch. In Portugal there called Fitsada (not sure of the spelling) I don't know where this person got their info from??? There are Witches in the Bible!

I thought my grandmother made up some of the stuff she use to do. till I saaw this site:Italian Witchcraft (http://www.geocities.com/witchyone_2000/ItalianWitchcraft.html) And I was like Oh my!!!! LOL I used to watch here do this:http://www.geocities.com/witchyone_2000/Mallocchio.html

Ren

[Ben Gruagach]

I think this article (http://www.thecrookedheath.com/witch.htm), brings up some interesting points in regaurds to using the term "witch". while i think the term "witch" at least as it's used today in the pagan community is a very broad one, not limited to a particular group, I think that the article at least may present a slightly different view to the entire debate.

That page is certainly interesting too, but I have a really hard time accepting the claim that witchcraft is exclusively English since we're using the English language and an English term.

If we're to accept that argument then I'm not sure how the person who wrote that page can honestly justify trying to tie German magickal practices into English witchcraft, which they also push on that page.

The actual practices of English mages (whether we call them witches or something else) are also far from unique to England too. Most of the grimoires we have available in English are translations from other languages, and most of those are based on Christian interpretations of the Jewish Qabala. A lot of the magickal lore (especially stuff claiming to come from the Templars) also has a lot of Arab influence in it as well.

And while we might not accept some of the claims made in "The Pickingill Papers" edited by Michael Howard (it's mostly trying to prove the cunning man George Pickingill as the source of Gardnerian Wicca) there is a lot of convincing information about how English witchcraft draws heavily from French witchcraft and other European and Middle Eastern sources.

By the way, Gardnerian Wicca drew heavily from Charles Leland's "Aradia: or the Gospel of the Witches" (it's in the Charge of the Goddess for instance) and the author of the linked page on the etymology of witch claims that English witches are definitely NOT connected to the Italian Streghe. Gardner also happily identified Greek and Roman sources in his books on witchcraft -- are they not really witchcraft either because the term they used wasn't the later English one?

That page just strikes me as another case of a person trying desperately to claim a term that has been used as a generic term for hundreds of years and turn it into a label that they feel should be exclusive for their own particular system. It's the old "my way is the only REAL xxx" which just doesn't hold up.

[Veritas contra mundo]

That page just strikes me as another case of a person trying desperately to claim a term that has been used as a generic term for hundreds of years and turn it into a label that they feel should be exclusive for their own particular system. It's the old "my way is the only REAL xxx" which just doesn't hold up.

:fpraise:


You must spread some Karma throughout the Community before touching Ben Gruagach's again.

Well, I can't touch your karma. but I can definitely give you some well-deserved _handclapp .

[ancestral_lee]

whoah, that last site was crap!

so witches can only be witches if they are from england? my butt they can. 'english' witchcraft isnt unique at all, it has a lot of practices that draw from several cultures and practies that are also found in several other cultures. to say that it can only be used by the english is tripe. other cutlures have thier own words but use the word witch as a translation for the benefit of english speakers.

im also willing to bet that the practices of that particular trad witch bear no relation to anglo saxon or early germanic practice at all


lee

[Ben Gruagach]

Just for the record regarding my last post there: the page that Faelon_Moon_Hawk linked is to an article by Robin Artisson about "traditional witchcraft." Artisson is involved with a form of English witchcraft that is descended from a man named Robert Cochrane who was active in the UK in the 1960s (he died in 1966.) Cochrane's legacy includes a witchcraft denomination called the Clan of Tubal Cain, and in the US another one called 1734 (among others.)

Cochrane-descended and inspired groups are just as valid as Wiccan and other forms of witchcraft. Cochrane was an important figure because he was instrumental in pointing out that it was possible for English witches to practice valid forms that were distinct and separate from Gardnerian-descended or inspired forms. Unfortunately, and despite tending to call itself "traditional witchcraft" in an attempt to distinguish itself from Wicca, there is little proof that these strains of witchcraft go back further than Gardner. In fact, none of them seem to have really appeared on the scene until after Gardner (Cochrane himself didn't present himself to anyone as a witch until the 1960s based on all the evidence so far.)

Doreen Valiente talks about the history of both the Gardnerian and Cochrane branches of English witchcraft in her book "The Rebirth of Witchcraft" and also gives a lot of info on the Cochrane variety in "Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed" which was written with Evan John Jones (who was the primary author on that one.)

[Agaliha]

Not sure any info was posted about it so here is a link, THis is what I practice: Traditional Witchcraft (http://www.geocities.com/echo879/)
Ren

I came across that site when I was looking up Trad Witchcraft. I even made a chart comparing Trad Witchcraft to Wicca. That's how I knew I wasn't Wiccan (among other things)-- my beliefs were so close to Trad Witchcraft-- which I never realized until I looked into it.The views on magick, cirlces, watchtowers, ethics, good/evil etc of Trad Witchcraft are the ones I follow. So it makes me wonder if Witchcraft better suits me rather than the the path I am on... which is not exactly working for me... :wah2: ...
Are the view of Trad Witchcraft limited to this specific path or do other Witchcraft Traditions follow the same ideas?
I hate to sound like a newbie but, can one that follows these beliefs and ideas of Trad Witchcraft be considered a (Trad) witch? I'm not going to start calling myself one or anything, I'm just curious what "qualifies" someone as being a Trad Witch.
Also-- Does anyone know any resources on "Eclectic Witchcraft" ? Everywhere I look they mix it up with Wicca...and they are not interchangeable. Or does anyone know how to contrast Trad Witchcraft with Eclectic?

[Kudzu]

I came across that site when I was looking up Trad Witchcraft. I even made a chart comparing Trad Witchcraft to Wicca. That's how I knew I wasn't Wiccan (among other things)-- my beliefs were so close to Trad Witchcraft-- which I never realized until I looked into it.The views on magick, cirlces, watchtowers, ethics, good/evil etc of Trad Witchcraft are the ones I follow. So it makes me wonder if Witchcraft better suits me rather than the the path I am on... which is not exactly working for me... :wah2: ...
Are the view of Trad Witchcraft limited to this specific path or do other Witchcraft Traditions follow the same ideas?
I hate to sound like a newbie but, can one that follows these beliefs and ideas of Trad Witchcraft be considered a (Trad) witch? I'm not going to start calling myself one or anything, I'm just curious what "qualifies" someone as being a Trad Witch.
Also-- Does anyone know any resources on "Eclectic Witchcraft" ? Everywhere I look they mix it up with Wicca...and they are not interchangeable. Or does anyone know how to contrast Trad Witchcraft with Eclectic?

I don't think their representation of Wicca is accurate. Traditional Wicca is much unlike the ideas many people have about Wicca. As for the WitchCraft represented on that page, I have my doubts about anything claiming such origins. It's okay to sound like a newbie, rather than to take the label of something that doesn't properly represent you. There are many paths and Traditions of WitchCraft and Wicca and Paganism out there. Take your time learning about each of them and exploring their beliefs, praxis and people!

[Seshata]

Hmmm....

I was reading the page about 'Wicca'... Gerald Gardner never wanted the publicity for Gardnerian Craft??? huh? He's the one who started writing books. As to Doreen leaving and joining the Clan of Tubal Cain - she left after 3 years when she decided that Robert Cockraine wasn't 'all that'.

I also found it interesting to hear that apparently as a Gardnerian, and in Britain, I don't know any other Gardnerians in other covens! Also, as to the 'ardanes' - there are a couple that might be misconstrued but also do not think that coven's haven't moved on. Gerald Gardner as I understand it and having talked with others of his 'era' didn't mean the tradition to stay still, it is there as a starting point, it is up to us to grow and develop. Think about this, when some of the stuff and rituals etc were written many were greatly influenced by the 'health and fitness' thing, thus for some (and I have spoken to quite a few 'older' priestesses) being healthy in mind and body was paramount. A good few years ago I had a discussion which covered this, which basically brought to the fore that this particular Lady should, according to what she was saying, 'step down' (health and age being the topic and an operation), I asked her the question ' do you feel that you cannot do your HPs job?' she then agreed that maybe some thoughts and ideas might be 'dated'. Its part of things to recognise this and move on and grow.

Just my thoughts! :)

BB

Seshata

[Athene]

That page just strikes me as another case of a person trying desperately to claim a term that has been used as a generic term for hundreds of years and turn it into a label that they feel should be exclusive for their own particular system. It's the old "my way is the only REAL xxx" which just doesn't hold up.

Using your quote to lead off, but am addressing most posters. :)

The thing is, these days we're obsessed with being politically correct, especially in America, and nobody is allowed to claim a right to own anything. I think it's perfectly legitimate to claim the right despite that you accept others use it.

For example, you were born & live in Malaysia, parents were Malaysian and so were ancestors, but you read books on Ireland, dress in their folk costumes a few times a year, fill your home with celtic symbols, even believe that somehow you might be spiritually descendent of Irish blood, and so on and so on. Then you started calling yourself Irish.

Now, you have a right to call yourself whatever you like, but the Irish have the right to never see you as Irish.

You can even go and live in Ireland and take citizenship, but the Irish will never see you as Irish.

The term witch, by those that know, refers to a specific people. However, the concept of witch is wide spread and because of this and for the sake of easier communication, I feel it's legitimate to call myself a witch, although in my heart, I am a bruja. When such witches get hung up on the fact that those not practicing British ways can't call themselves witch, that's legitimate to me, but a little pedantic as the concept of witch is, as I said, universal. I would accept a person of witchblood calling themselves a bruja if they visited Spain or Latin America. I've travelled all over the world and despite different practices, the core of witchery is the same.

However, the term has been taken now to mean something totally different. And that's okay too, because language shifts with the tides of social change.

BUT, a person of witchblood still has the right to view anyone not of witchblood as not a witch. Just as if you are not born in Ireland or of Irish family, you can never be truly Irish.

My concern is that people are romanticised by the term 'witch' and fight so hard over the right to use it. Why? The label becomes more important than the spiritual life. Most who I meet that call themselves witches are simply neo-Pagan, and that path is a beautiful one and it shouldn't be shunned because it doesn't have as interesting a label, one that is shocking and mysterious.

Traditional witches should never care about who calls themselves 'witch'. It makes no difference to my life if thousands take the label - a true witch stands in the darkness and all these new witches actually add to the veil.

And neo-witches should be able to accept the right of witchblood folk to not see you as true witch.

I am of witchblood and I don't feel any more special than any one of you. I am born Witch just as others are born Writer, Artist, Musician, and so on. It is spirit, you have no choice.

And, you have to realise that you insult a person of Irish blood when you call yourself Irish. Would you dare insult the Native Americans by calling yourself the same or of a tribe, if you were of Scottish blood, just because you followed their way of life? You likewise insult those of witchblood when you take the term without even understanding what true witchery is. And when you soapbox about it, it's dirt in our faces.

I am not pagan, but my understanding of the path is that is deep reverence for the Land, just as in witchery, and for ancestors. To link yourself to something you have no true connection with is unspiritual. So true neo-pagans should understand what I'm saying.

As I said, most of us don't care, and many of us are tolerant. I for one perfectly understand why the term is so popular, especially with younger people. But it doesn't negate what you do by taking it. If the term means so much to you, if you fight for it, then you should ask yourself, why do you need it?

I am aware that this is not a popular stance, but some of us are less concerned with acceptance and political correctness, and more with who we are as people.

good energy to all
:)

[IvyWitch]

But, it's not about who is and who isn't allowed to call themselves a witch and who it matters to. It's about non-chalantly slapping a label onto something that doesn't deserve the label. The website says it's about "traditional witchcraft" but it's not.

And, I'm also really put off by your comparison. Are you saying that only people who were born into some sort of family tradition of folk magic are allowed to use the term witch? Personally I think that's pretty dumb. If someone is raised Jewish and they later convert to Christianity, do they not have the right to call themselves a Christian because they weren't born to it?
It's totally different from calling yourself a nationality you have no claim to. I am not Spanish at all, so I don't have a right to call myself a Latino.

Being a witch is not something you have to be born into. It's something that you just *are*.

[MercysFallen]

"BUT, a person of witchblood still has the right to view anyone not of witchblood as not a witch. Just as if you are not born in Ireland or of Irish family, you can never be truly Irish."

OK, then unless you were born of middle eastern decent you can not claim to be either Jewish, Christian or Muslim. Sorry I don't see you point there. The English did NOT have claim to a religion that has been a practice all over the world.

Ren

[Athene]

And, I'm also really put off by your comparison. Are you saying that only people who were born into some sort of family tradition of folk magic are allowed to use the term witch?

You need to be careful about what somebody says and what you choose to read. I never said 'allowed', in fact, I said more than once that anyone can call themselves what they like. And again, that I use the term myself despite not being British.

Anybody is ALLOWED to call themselves whatever they like. I have never said otherwise.


If someone is raised Jewish and they later convert to Christianity, do they not have the right to call themselves a Christian because they weren't born to it?

It's totally different from calling yourself a nationality you have no claim to. I am not Spanish at all, so I don't have a right to call myself a Latino.

Being a witch is not something you have to be born into. It's something that you just *are*.

Again, you're talking about 'a right'. I'm not concerned with a political debate, this is some neo-pagan's agenda, it is not of the witch.

But, to address what you're saying, what do you mean by 'you just are'. If you mean the essence of a person, than isn't this something that you are born with? You are not making a clear distinction between religion and the spirit of a person.

You're sort of agreeing with me when you mention a nationality you have no claim to. Who says you don't? If your criteria is that Latino blood does not run through you and therefore you cannot be Latino, then you actually understand.



OK, then unless you were born of middle eastern decent you can not claim to be either Jewish, Christian or Muslim. Sorry I don't see you point there. The English did NOT have claim to a religion that has been a practice all over the world.

I did say that witchery is universal. Being witch is not a religion, just as being an artist is not.

You're both getting stuck on religion and rights, and ignoring that witchery is about spirit.
If you believe it is a religion, then naturally you would assume that you can choose. As it isn't, there is no choice. If you were born with the spirit of an Artist, you have no other way but to create, if you were born with the spirit of a Musician, a dog, a tree, a healer, you have no choice.
To call yourself, Musician, tree, or witch if the spiritblood of those beings does not run through you is false. You can call yourself a tree if you like, but there's a good chance I'm not going to believe you. I work with young people who call themselves witches and never tell them they don't have a 'right', that doesn't mean they are witches.

If you do not understand what a spirit essence is, then it's difficult to understand what I'm saying. I hope I'm giving some useful analogies, but you do have to read what I say, not react to a topic.

take care both
:)

[MercysFallen]

Who is stuck on religion. I said earlier I have family members who are Catholic and practice Witchcraft! I'm sorry I even started this.

Ren

[Athene]

In your other post you said:


OK, then unless you were born of middle eastern decent you can not claim to be either Jewish, Christian or Muslim. Sorry I don't see you point there. The English did NOT have claim to a religion that has been a practice all over the world.


You named three religions and said the word religion. If you weren't talking about religion then I think it was an honest mistake of mine to think you were.

Why are you sorry? Are we not here to learn and discuss? If we all agreed, it renders a discussion board irelevant. :viking:

[MercysFallen]

I was referring to you post on someone claiming a belief or nationality if they were not born to it. I was simply offering a comparison to you statement. My initial post had nothing to do with it. Nor do I agree with everything that was posted on that site (as I mentioned before) I don't feel that anyone can not claim the word witch. Sorry it is an always will be a generic term. I know of many "British" born pagans who will not even touch the word witch.
I have had practice another form of "spirituality" What I loved about it and almost "converted to it" is that the "spirits" Call to the soul of the person. It cares not about your physical shell or where you came from.

Ren

[Veritas contra mundo]

What I loved about it and almost "converted to it" is that the "spirits" Call to the soul of the person. It cares not about your physical shell or where you came from.

Then I doubt it cares what it is called ... though I can understand the frustration when it feels like you're talking past other people, and they're talking past you.

Ren, instead of just posting the website, it might help if you went through the website and marked off the parts you agree with and those you disagree with. You might find that there's more of the latter than the former. If that's the case, and you still want to explain your beliefs, then it may be that the only option is to write out the explanation yourself.

In the Gardnerian "Warning," it says "Make a book in your own hand of write." There are several reasons for that, but one of the more exoteric ones is that if you are the one that writes it, then there is no confusion of having to take another's words.

Justin

[Ben Gruagach]

The term witch, by those that know, refers to a specific people.

I've quoted that one line out of the post because I feel it summarizes the issue the best. The key to the whole debate is that little phrase, "by those that know."

Who qualifies as one of "those that know"?

Robert Cochrane derided Gerald Gardner and all those who practiced his style of witchcraft as "pretenders." Gardnerians (including Doreen Valiente, who worked with Gardner and later with Robert Cochrane) pointed out that Cochrane's claims to an ancient lineage were just as flimsy as Gardner's. So which one counts as "those that know"?

These same stupid witchwars happened between Gardnerians and Alexandrians too. Gardnerians claimed that Alexandrians were not REAL Wiccans. Alexandrians claimed that Gardnerians were the "johnny-come-latelies." They overcame their differences and today it's much more common to see Gardnerians and Alexandrians banding together, calling all those other Wiccan denominations as "not REAL Wicca." It's a never-ending cycle of pettiness and witchier-than-thou attitude.

Just like both Protestants AND Catholics have the right to call themselves Christians, I think that all these different Wiccan groups (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, and anything else that is inspired by them) are really Wiccan, and likewise both Cochrane-inspired and Wiccan (and non-English too) have the right to call themselves witches. As I've said before, if a particular group wants to be considered unique and exclusive then they'd be better off inventing a new unique label for themselves rather that trying to claim a term that has been used generically for so long. Trying to claim exclusive ownership of a generic term just makes you look rather foolish.

Here's another way of looking at the issue. In English we call that delicious concoction made with a batter of flour, something sweet, and a liquid which is baked or cooked until it is solid a "cake." In France they make them too, but they call them "gateau." In Germany they are "Kuchen." In Italy they are "torta." Are each of these things really not the same, even if they use the exact same ingredients and are made the exact same way, because they have different names in the different languages? Of course not!

Witch is a generic term in English, and is translated as sorciere, Hexe, strega, heks, etc. depending what language we pick. Changing the language does not mean they are not the same thing.

[MercysFallen]

"Here's another way of looking at the issue. In English we call that delicious concoction made with a batter of flour, something sweet, and a liquid which is baked or cooked until it is solid a "cake." In France they make them too, but they call them "gateau." In Germany they are "Kuchen." In Italy they are "torta." Are each of these things really not the same, even if they use the exact same ingredients and are made the exact same way, because they have different names in the different languages? Of course not!

Witch is a generic term in English, and is translated as sorciere, Hexe, strega, heks, etc. depending what language we pick. Changing the language does not mean they are not the same thing."

:clapping: _twohorns_ :clapping:

[Ben Gruagach]

By the way, I think MercysFallen signature quote summarizes everything really well:
I am Pagan for what I believe. A Witch for what I do.

[MercysFallen]

By the way, I think MercysFallen signature quote summarizes everything really well:
I am Pagan for what I believe. A Witch for what I do.


Thank you. People keep asking me where i got it.
Boy does that goet om my nerves _firedevil

Ren

[Athene]

Witch is a generic term in English, and is translated as sorciere, Hexe, strega, heks, etc. depending what language we pick. Changing the language does not mean they are not the same thing.

Ermmm... that's what I said - I'm bruja, but use witch because the concept of witch is universal.

Ben, you're usually so good at picking out what people are really saying. What happened? :halohead: I've said what you just said in other threads. lol That was never my main point. Or are you only referring to the article?
But though the concept of witchery is not the same as the original meaning of 'witch'. But I'll leave that because I don't think anyone here is ready to understand that and I don't feel it's that important.


The incidences you refer to are Wiccan, not a religion I'm an expert on.

Witchery is a very, very difficult thing to discuss. For those who are not witches, they get hung up on political activism 'we all have the right', or think that those that are witches are being elitist.
And, witches cannot say too much so non-witches get insufficient answers.

Look, I love painting, I paint regularly. Yet, I am not an Artist - the spirit of Artist. I do not have to paint to feel fulfilled.
If it makes me feel good, I can go around and call myself an Artist. Fine. But true Artists are priviledged AND burdened with their true spirit. For me to call myself an Artist is an insult to the spirit of Artist and it is a lie to myself.

We constantly get hung up on politics in these discussions and totally forget what is important - spiritual authenticity.

'witch wars'? politics, let's talk spirituality.

THAT is my concern. As a spiritual mentor, my priority is to guide seekers to find their personal authentic Self. If you have to fight so hard over a label, what does that say about you? If you choose 'witch' and you are not, guess what? you have created an enormous spiritual barrier to your journey.

If you consider yourself witch for what you do, then fine, that's what you believe. But witches do not believe that, so to me, you are not a witch by thinking that.
And I have a right to think that without it being misconstrued as intolerant by the PC police. I love you as a human being, respect your insights and knowledge, enjoy your sound debates, accept whatever you call yourself, but do not believe you are witch. Just as an Artist will not see me as Artist just because I paint.

[Athene]

Ok, I'll offer a quick analogy for the whole witch - strege -bruja thing.

Consider that artist again. Let's be more specific Painter Artist.

There is a metaphorical bloodline or spirit that makes somebody a Painter Artist.

However, the expressions are different. There are Cubists, Impressionsists, Modernists and more.

The Painter Artist = the concept of witchery.
The specific expressions = witch, bruja and so on.

A person born an Impressionist (we're using analogy) might call themselves a Painter out of convenience, he could even call himself a Cubist in a country where Painter and Cubist were interchangeable so as to be understood.
Just as a witch would call themselves a bruja if visiting Spain, but both types of Artists are aware that there is a difference in expression. Non-artists would just be confused, not care or insist anyone can call themslves a Cubist.

*shrug* worth a go.

[MercysFallen]

"If you consider yourself witch for what you do, then fine, that's what you believe. But witches do not believe that, so to me, you are not a witch by thinking that."

Excuse me!!!!! What is it Brits think they are the salt of the earth. The're not!!!!!

If this is how this site is run! I will leave. I understand debate but this is BS.You can be Christian and be a Witch But I can't be pagan and be a Witch???????? One sided don't you think? Did I ever say Paracticing Witchcraft and My being PAgan was the same thing?????
You love to assume don't you? You assumed because I said I was a Pagan and practiced Witchcraft it was the same. NO! Just like I am Pagan And I have a job working for the school department. They are not involved with each other!

Yes I am a Witch. "Witch" is in fact A new word. NO ONE not even a brit can hold claim that it is ancient! Get off you high horse sweetie it just make you look foolish.

Ren

[KEishin]

Traditional witches should never care about who calls themselves 'witch'. It makes no difference to my life if thousands take the label - a true witch stands in the darkness and all these new witches actually add to the veil.
Couldn't have said it better m'self.

Those who are witches, whether they call themselves by that label or not, need no fanfare, for those that need their wisdom will find them. "If what you seek you find not within, you will never find it without."

Everyone's entitled to their opinion; there is no copywright on the term. But as to Wicca, that is a British path, so when you can take the Brit out of the path, the Wiccan element often vanishes as well. You can still be a witch but it's now more correctly a Wiccan-derived path.

I myself, have met people I would call witch, though we shared nothing in comon other than our common humanity.

And one last thought. . . "speak ye little, listen much."

[Ben Gruagach]

MysticWicks is a very open and accepting community and one that I am proud to participate in. We have a large and diverse group of people here who by and large are very open and willing to discuss things in a friendly manner even when we disagree.

I hope no one is feeling threatened here or feeling unwelcome. As our valiant site hosts tell us, the only rule here is "respect." We can respect each other even though we have our differences.

Please, everyone, keep in mind that the discussion is about ideas and not whether a specific person is right or wrong. The topics that come up are rarely simple -- it always seems to me that the discussions do an excellent job of showing how complex the issues really are when we start to look at them more closely. And because things are complex it also often happens that there are interesting details that might come out later that can result in us changing our individual opinions too. That sort of thing always makes me encouraged as it shows we are not stuck in fossilized dogma and are growing.

Words are powerful things but they are also fluid things. We might think we have them nailed down but then get thrown head over heels by some chance interaction. Life's like that. And personally I think it's the Divine's way of saying to us, "Don't get a swelled head -- you're not omniscient!" The Divine has a sense of humour like that. And it doesn't do us much good to get ourselves all worked up over things that are really not ours to control -- like what generic labels other people choose to use or what other people do in their own spiritual paths.

Getting back to the Artist analogy, I would have to admit that any Artist who would look down their noses at others who dared to dabble are not the type of people I admire. Sure, they might have talent. Sure, they might have vision. But attitude is also important. Anyone who wants to be treated like an elder or initiate who can't demonstrate wisdom and respect isn't someone who is worthy of it in my opinion. Having a specific title or a lengthy number of years at something doesn't automatically make someone worthy of respect. Demonstrating respect to others (even those who are not as far along the path, or not as talented) is most definitely something that earns my respect.

[Athene]

Excuse me!!!!! What is it Brits think they are the salt of the earth. The're not!!!!!

If this is how this site is run! I will leave. I understand debate but this is BS.You can be Christian and be a Witch But I can't be pagan and be a Witch???????? One sided don't you think? Did I ever say Paracticing Witchcraft and My being PAgan was the same thing?????
You love to assume don't you? You assumed because I said I was a Pagan and practiced Witchcraft it was the same. NO! Just like I am Pagan And I have a job working for the school department. They are not involved with each other!

Yes I am a Witch. "Witch" is in fact A new word. NO ONE not even a brit can hold claim that it is ancient! Get off you high horse sweetie it just make you look foolish.

Woah, Hey hun, you're totally missing my attitude. I am not antagonistic towards anyone who uses the term and in fact have love for all Creation, including you. I'm an extremely patient and laid back sort of person, and for the upteenth time, I'm not Brit.

Thing is, your reaction is exactly what I've been talking about.

There's no need to be so angry, so why are you? That's my point.
Especially as I'm not telling anyone what they can't or can be, I'm giving an honest opinion from the heart.

The great thing about MW is that so many opinions can be voiced. If we're just here to gain popularity by saying 'everything is fine by me', or sycophantically agree, then this place becomes useless.

If you think I'm on a high horse, you're not listening.

Peace within.
:viking:

[Athene]

Getting back to the Artist analogy, I would have to admit that any Artist who would look down their noses at others who dared to dabble are not the type of people I admire. Sure, they might have talent. Sure, they might have vision. But attitude is also important. Anyone who wants to be treated like an elder or initiate who can't demonstrate wisdom and respect isn't someone who is worthy of it in my opinion. Having a specific title or a lengthy number of years at something doesn't automatically make someone worthy of respect. Demonstrating respect to others (even those who are not as far along the path, or not as talented) is most definitely something that earns my respect.


Ben, darling, you're not listening either. What's with the mental block? :hearteyes

I'm not sure what you're referring to about titles, etc, as that has nothing to do with witchdom. So I'll leave that.

I'm not denying some people do have bad attitudes and involve themselves in politics over labels. But what I've been trying to do (unsuccessfully) is move us past this superficial topic and get to the core of why some traditional witches speak about the terms.

So, when we speak of the spirit of a thing within, what has that got to do with attitude? Does a tree have a bad attitude or look down it's 'nose' at a flower simply because it does not see the flower as a tree?

If a flower went around shouting 'I'm a tree, I'm a tree', well, fine, doesn't make her a tree. And the tree can say fine, call yourself what you like, but the tree will not see the flower as a tree.

The flower's argument might even be 'I'm a witch because of what I do'. Again, the tree says, fine, whatever you need in your spiritual journey. But the tree knows it's not what you do that makes you a tree.

Now, the term 'tree' might evolve in the world of Nature and come to mean somebody that stands around in a tree posture. Fine, words change. And now flowers feel even more justified calling themselves trees. But the tree understands the spirit of tree and can only acknowledge that spirit. So the flowers still aren't trees in the eyes of the tree.

It is about like recognising like. Witches recognise each other at first meeting; spirit sees like spirit. If you do not have witchblood, witch spirit, whatever, it has nothing to do with looking down on you, it's not there, it is not our choice, the Great Spirit chose, fate chose, whatever.

In being who you are meant to be, that is being spiritually authentic, which means honouring the Great Spirit (or gods if you prefer) and the divine in yourself.

Instead of getting hung up on who we want to be, we should put our energies towards discovering who we are. Or, even simpler, just being.

...

[Ben Gruagach]

Perhaps if everyone is misunderstanding the problem is not with everyone else but with the actual idea that is being expressed. Perhaps the idea is flawed, or if the idea is not flawed perhaps the way it is being expressed is not clear and that is why no one seems to get it.

The tree analogy -- what we've got here is a Pine tree telling an Oak that it's not a "real tree" because it's not a Pine.

So-called "traditional witches" aren't any more traditional than any other type of witch out there, including the many Wiccans they claim they are so unlike. If there is a genuine historical lineage that predates Gardner then the evidence needs to be brought forward. Otherwise it's just another one of the "grandmother myths" that so often get debunked. It's happened many times before so it's not that surprising people have a hard time accepting the latest person who comes along and claims an ancient lineage without proof.

In the English-speaking world the vast majority of people who claim "traditional witchcraft" (and say they are NOT Wiccan) are descended from or inspired by Robert Cochrane's work. The problem is that Cochrane's involvement in witchcraft can only be confirmed to go as far back as the 1960s -- before that we just have his word on things, and unfortunately some of his claims about historical lineage have been proven to have been lies. Gerald Gardner at least is proven to go back to the 1950s and very likely the late 1940s. Before Gardner's time, at least in English-speaking countries, the witches we have evidence for were all of the cunning-man or wise-woman type who were really practicing folk magick and not proclaiming anything like an actual Pagan religion.

Cochrane was one of the leaders who pushed the point that you could practice English witchcraft and not be Wiccan, that you could even make it a spiritual path and still not be Wiccan. Unfortunately he also seemed to thrive on conflict and did his best to try and make it seem like his form of witchcraft was the only "real" witchcraft, and that Wiccans were just fakers.

And in Robin Artisson's article that was linked previously, we've got someone taking it even further and claiming that only English non-Wiccan witches are the "real" witches, that if you're Italian or Greek or from the African continent you couldn't possibly be a witch because English is not the mother language.

Forget the analogies with artists, food, etc. The real equivalence here is with the different sects of Christianity each claiming that they are the one and only REAL Christians, and all others are fake. Does that really make sense? If it doesn't make sense, then why should it make sense if one segment of the witchcraft population does the exact same thing and claims that somehow they have exclusive right to the term witch?

Witchcraft is a community that does not have a central scripture or authority structure that determines who is a member and what is kosher. Because we don't have that central authority structure, no subgroup of the community, no matter how vocal they are, has the authority to dictate to the rest of us what generic labels we are permitted to use. They don't have to like it, but anyone else out there who wants to call themselves a witch has just as much right to the word as the most traditional (whatever that really means) with the most authenticated lineage that goes back to the stone age.

[Athene]

Perhaps if everyone is misunderstanding the problem is not with everyone else but with the actual idea that is being expressed. Perhaps the idea is flawed, or if the idea is not flawed perhaps the way it is being expressed is not clear and that is why no one seems to get it.

You're perfectly right. My explanations might be clumsy.



If there is a genuine historical lineage that predates Gardner then the evidence needs to be brought forward.

But witches don't go around offering proof. It makes no difference to me whether anyone believes I am a true witch or not. I offer insights, I don't care about putting me forward.

You have to understand, that despite traditional witches being unpopular, we exist. And although we don't care what others think - we've always lived by the way side - if you can accept for a minute that hereditary witches exist, just for a minute allow that belief to be real, then you can imagine how insulting it is to hear people rant about 'proof' and pre this and pre that. My family, who live in S. America wouldn't know what most of you speak of when you mention Cochrane or Gardner. I didn't know until 5 years ago when I stepped into the Internet. The fact they even attempted to prove lineage shows to me they weren't witches.

Life is more than the small reality of America and/or neo-witches finding their spiritual paths. I've told my family that this is an issue in America/Britain/etc, and they can't get their heads around it at all: people shouting out they're witches, people asking for proof, people disbelieving true witches exist - it's not even possible for them to conceptualise it all.

To have my spirit be dismissed with 'grandmother myth's' is to have my ancestors be spat on in the face.
I realise that this means little to anyone that wants to be a witch or those whose real focus is on research and evidence and so on.

Even if I was disgusting enough to want to prove such a thing, how could I? My grandmother left school before she was 10, my auntie before she was 13. They can't write letters to me let alone own a 'book of shadows', even other family members don't know. The witch is in the shadows. The family members that use folk magic? Sure, but that's not the problem is it?

For people that believe in faeries, many gods, otherkin and so on, it amazes me how obstinate the community is about hereditary witches. Yes, I appreciate the skepticism, I am a skeptic myself, every witch is. But the obstinacy is amazing within such a community. We rant about tolerance and respect but we dismiss the unique spirit of people if it means we may not be able to retain a precious label for ourselves.

A spiritual community that is obsessed with proof?



Forget the analogies with artists, food, etc. The real equivalence here is with the different sects of Christianity each claiming that they are the one and only REAL Christians, and all others are fake.

No, that is not the real equivalence at all. If you forget the analogies I use and substitute it with religious ones, you have missed the message entirely. You are not trying to understand what I say, but rather prove your point. And that's not very productive.


Witchcraft is a community

How can a practice be a community? But I understand what you mean.


Because we don't have that central authority structure, no subgroup of the community, no matter how vocal they are, has the authority to dictate to the rest of us what generic labels we are permitted to use. They don't have to like it, but anyone else out there who wants to call themselves a witch has just as much right to the word as the most traditional (whatever that really means) with the most authenticated lineage that goes back to the stone age.

And that's fine dear. You're speaking in terms of a neo-witch and all the politics that goes with that. So we're speaking two different languages.

But if we're not going to have a true discussion that cuts out the rubbish and gets to the core of Spirit, and therefore try to understand one another rather than strive to be right, then I have to step out. I'll see you in another thread some other time. :smile:

Call yourself a witch, I'm fine with that. :seehearsp

lots of peace to you.

[dragoncrone]

...I have to pick with that site is that it's riddled with typos and spelling errors. Information tends to pack less of a punch if the author doesn't even take the time to use spell-check.
:wth: :reading:

[MercysFallen]

"If you consider yourself witch for what you do, then fine, that's what you believe. But witches do not believe that, so to me, you are not a witch by thinking that."

Yes, This insulted me. I don't care what you feel in your heart. I have heard many fundies use that when they tell me there god will sentance me to hell. I am done with this thread.


Ren

[Ben Gruagach]

Athene --

There are many witches today (like me for instance) who have no problem accepting various manifestations of witchcraft as being perfectly valid, enriching, and definitely spiritually rewarding for those who practice them... in spite of the fact that they might very well have been started up less that a hundred years ago. The age of a particular system or practice has very little to do with whether it is valid or helpful.

It worries me a lot though when people wrap up so much of their sense of self-worth in a claim that their particular spiritual system is supposed to pre-date Gerald Gardner. What if it turns out to not pre-date Gardner? Will you abandon that spiritual path as "invalid"? Does everything hinge on that one historical claim? Why don't we instead invest our sense of worth in whether our particular spiritual path provides us with meaning, with connection to our communities and with the Divine, rather than on some arbitrary historical claim?

Sarah M. Pike has an excellent book out called "Earthly Bodies, Magical Selves" which explores the development of the Pagan community in North America in the context of what scholars have observed about community evolution in other groups. One of the things she points out is that it is common for young communities to spend a lot of energy trying to build up their self-identity by focussing on what they AREN'T (i.e. for Pagans, they would often go to great lengths to say they AREN'T Christians, Satanists, evil, etc.) As the community matures it tends to grow past this and move instead to what I think is much more healthy and productive -- focussing on what the community IS. What makes that community special? What is the seed at the core of the community's identity? What is the mythical, ethical, and practical structure? What is truly the common center for those who are part of that community?

Non-Wiccan witchcraft definitely exists and is valid and meaningful. I would much rather see energy spent on focussing on what it IS about, what it does and believes and teaches, rather than on silly witch-war stuff about which group is "witchier-than-thou." Since most of us at least give lip service to accepting the idea of polytheism, we should probably stop acting like monotheistic "One True Way -- and of course it's MY Way" types.

Religious communities (not just modern Pagan ones) are notorious for rather inventive origin myths. It's common for a group to claim an imaginary connection to the past that it doesn't truly have as a way to try and establish itself as credible. The thing about these claims though is that they either have to be proven if we are to be expected to accept them, or we have to acknowledge that they are mythical rather than factual or else we are simply deceiving ourselves. And since most religions are essentially about connecting with the Greater Truth (often personified as a Divine of some sort) one of our goals should be to identify and strip away the layers of deception. Deceptions are a hindrance in our relationships with ourselves, our communities, and in the end with the Divine.

[Athene]

Deceptions are a hindrance in our relationships with ourselves, our communities, and in the end with the Divine.

:graduate:


see you around.... :smile:

[Seshata]

Anyone who wants to be treated like an elder or initiate who can't demonstrate wisdom and respect isn't someone who is worthy of it in my opinion. Having a specific title or a lengthy number of years at something doesn't automatically make someone worthy of respect. Demonstrating respect to others (even those who are not as far along the path, or not as talented) is most definitely something that earns my respect.


:clapping:

Also sometimes fresh eyes see something that someone who's been doing things for a long time may have missed. A religion shouldn't stay still, there is a danger in stagnating, growing and developing is good, although it is always beneficial to keep and remember where we came from. :)

BB

Seshata

[Seshata]

The great thing about MW is that so many opinions can be voiced. If we're just here to gain popularity by saying 'everything is fine by me', or sycophantically agree, then this place becomes useless.
If you think I'm on a high horse, you're not listening.

ok - I must be another that missed it! :) I did personally find the art analogies a little confusing ...

I personally feel that your implying that 'politics' etc is a purely Wiccan or 'neo-pagan' thing is a little short-sighted. Every human being has those capabilities of being like that whatever their religion/belief/whatever... It may even exist in your community between some brujo/as.

I claim tiredness induced by trying to train a stroppy iguana who nipped my finger yesterday! :P

BB

Seshata (vaguely trying to get her brain into gear!)

[IvyWitch]

Especially as I'm not telling anyone what they can't or can be, I'm giving an honest opinion from the heart.

If that's the case then I think perhaps you should really clarify this:


If you consider yourself witch for what you do, then fine, that's what you believe. But witches do not believe that, so to me, you are not a witch by thinking that.


BUT, a person of witchblood still has the right to view anyone not of witchblood as not a witch.

Because I think a number of people were insulted and confused by these statements. You seem to be implying that heriditary is the only valid form of witchcraft, and that neo-pagans don't "have enough knowledge" to use the term witch.

Yes, MW has a wide range of backgrounds and opinions, but part of the "respect" rule here is that we don't invalidate another's chosen path.

[CleftOfLight]

wow,I'll come back another time,too early,and I am too confused.

[Athene]

My apologies, i didn't mean to leave things unanswered. I had already said enough and wae weren't understanding each other so it was time to end it for now.

I'll reply to this so as not to leave it...


If that's the case then I think perhaps you should really clarify this:

>>Quote: Athene
If you consider yourself witch for what you do, then fine, that's what you believe. But witches do not believe that, so to me, you are not a witch by thinking that. <<

Because I think a number of people were insulted and confused by these statements. You seem to be implying that heriditary is the only valid form of witchcraft, and that neo-pagans don't "have enough knowledge" to use the term witch.


The bit where I said 'to me'. :kooky:

I'm not saying what you (and others) think I'm saying. Most of my statements are heard defensively and we can never understand others if we hear this way. So please just understand that what you think I'm saying is not what I'm saying. lol
If you want to know, then my posts can be re-read and if the statements are read clearly, then you will know. I've had Pms saying they understand, so some people are reading what I'm saying. If you don't want to know, thn that's everyone's prerogative.

phew! lol

I would love to see a white Irish (for example) member here wear a feather headress and practice some Native American things and call themselves Native American without anyone viewing that as offensive. :steppy: Of course you don't see it as the same thing though. If you can understand that one tiny thing - it's the same thing to a witch - then you come close to hearing me.

take care, peace and love, happy Autumn/Fall :gagged:

[Morgandria]

It's called Witchcraft because it's a craft. Crafts are learned - no-one is born knowing a craft. You must learn and practice, hone skills, acquire knowledge. Blood and breeding doesn't mean a damn thing to a craft. Dedication to teachings, and time spent practicing, does.

Sorry...born witches are a myth.

[IvyWitch]

Still sounds to me like you are saying only people who are born into it are "real witches" (TM).

:rolleyes:

[MercysFallen]

Irish is not a religious belief. Not all Irish are Pagan, Catholic or Protestant! Try again!! And again the Brits do NOT own the word witch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Religion is NOT a cultural thing. What don't you get?

Ren

[raven grimassi]

It's called Witchcraft because it's a craft. Crafts are learned - no-one is born knowing a craft. You must learn and practice, hone skills, acquire knowledge. Blood and breeding doesn't mean a damn thing to a craft. Dedication to teachings, and time spent practicing, does.

Sorry...born witches are a myth.

I agree that one does not need to be born into a Witch family to be a Witch. However, it is interesting to note that there are reasons why some hereditary Witches highly value the bloodlines.

There is an old teaching that an occult nature is carried in the blood. This etheric quality is said to bestow what is often referred to as the gift. References to this quality appear in folklorist studies, and most notably in the works of Charles Leland. He comments: "As the children grow older, if any aptitude is observed in them for sorcery, some old grandmother or aunt takes them in hand, and initiates them into the ancient faith" (Etruscan Roman Remains). It is important to note that this implies that someone born into a Witch family may or may not demonstrate the gift. This strongly suggests that bloodlines alone do not ensure anything.

I've met people from different cultures who claim to be "Witches of the Blood" but I've never met any who felt this gave them some sort of superiority. Typically they feel it makes them different, not better, just different from other people. Personally, I regard this quality as the metaphysical counterpart of something in the physical DNA, and that this provides a predisposition for things of an occult nature. But personally, I think that the soul plays a vital part in what arises from Witch blood, or what does not arise.

On the other hand, there is a teaching that a Witch grows more "powerful" with each incarnation and that it is important to be born again within the same bloodlines. This is partially reflected in the Craft verse that reads: "You must be born again at the same time and place as those who loved before. And you must meet, recognize, remember, and love them anew. But to be reborn you must die and be made ready for a new body. And to die you must be born, but without love you may not be born among your own".

Anyway, interesting ideas....

[MercysFallen]

I'm sorry I find it hard to believe any "witch" blood was carried down from Britian. I have a better chance of me tracing my Italian "WITCHcraft" ancestors. In fact I had a Grandmother and a Aunt who practiced. I guess I am one by blood! LOL


:alol:

Ren

[Philosophia]

On the other hand, there is a teaching that a Witch grows more "powerful" with each incarnation and that it is important to be born again within the same bloodlines. This is partially reflected in the Craft verse that reads: "You must be born again at the same time and place as those who loved before. And you must meet, recognize, remember, and love them anew. But to be reborn you must die and be made ready for a new body. And to die you must be born, but without love you may not be born among your own".

But isn't the genes being diluted through outside interferance? Unless the family are having incestuous relationships, how can the genetic profile remain pure (thus the witchblood can not become diluted)? If I have a grandmother who was a witch, yet my mother and father aren't, how can that make me one? Does that mean I have "witchblood"? Or has it skipped my generation?

I hope I'm not being offensive because this "witchblood" confuses me somewhat.

[MercysFallen]

Don't worry most think the whole "witchblood" thing is BS

Ren

[raven grimassi]

But isn't the genes being diluted through outside interferance? Unless the family are having incestuous relationships, how can the genetic profile remain pure (thus the witchblood can not become diluted)?

It is a metaphysical theory, and whatever merit it may have is linked to the idea that ancestral DNA is traceable. The science does exist that can link a person to someone from the past (I vaguely recall some tests being done to see if someone was descended from Thomas Jefferson, or someone like that).


If I have a grandmother who was a witch, yet my mother and father aren't, how can that make me one? Does that mean I have "witchblood"? Or has it skipped my generation?

Theoretically speaking, the scenario you present would mean that you are "of the blood" in that family line.


I hope I'm not being offensive because this "witchblood" confuses me somewhat.

It seems to confuse a lot of people, so you are in good company.


Don't worry most think the whole "witchblood" thing is BS

Whatever the truth may be, there are people who believe in the principle of "witchblood" and it has deep meaning for them. It is part of the diversity of our beliefs as a community. I personally do not feel that calling these deeply held beliefs "BS" is really necessary. Perhaps just respectfully disagreeing might be a better approach.

[Philosophia]

It is a metaphysical theory, and whatever merit it may have is linked to the idea that ancestral DNA is traceable. The science does exist that can link a person to someone from the past (I vaguely recall some tests being done to see if someone was descended from Thomas Jefferson, or someone like that).

* But wouldn't the "Witchblood" be diluted thus the power is weakened and how does one determine if they have "witchblood" or not? If it can skip a generation, how would you know if it hasn't done the same for you?
BTW, I hope I'm not annoying you with all my questioning. I tend to be very curious about this line of thinking.

[Avanti]

I'm now quite confused. I came across earlier in my research the terms "hereditary witches" and "natural witches", and I've never really understood what exactly makes them distinct from others.

To me the word "witch" is just a term which refers to a person who practises the craft. And is not something that can be genetically passed on and inherited. Like the analogy of the artist offered earlier, while not all people who paint or draw can call themselves an artist, they can refine or practise to the point where they can be called an artist.

As for nationalities I can understand, but that's a genetic thing, and as far as i'm concerned we're all of the human race.

Our earliest ancestors across the world in all countries practised some sort of nature worship, witchcraft whatever you call it. It's a way of living and belief that is part of human history and I do not believe can be limited to a certain strand of people.

[IvyWitch]

Whatever the truth may be, there are people who believe in the principle of "witchblood" and it has deep meaning for them. It is part of the diversity of our beliefs as a community. I personally do not feel that calling these deeply held beliefs "BS" is really necessary. Perhaps just respectfully disagreeing might be a better approach.

Personally I say it's just as offensive as claiming that unless you have "witchblood" you're not allowed to study/practice witchcraft.

Now, I don't think it's BS, but I do think it comes out of the "I need to feel more specialer than you" syndrome. Sure, people have ancestors that practice folk magic, and maybe even trace it back to some ancient Pagan tribe. But that doesn't mean those of us who don't have no valid claim to the path.

The whole heriditary thing isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is that it seems like every "heriditary witch" I come across seems to feel the need to totally invalidate my own beliefs and practices because I'm not a born and bred witch. That, my friend, is what is BS.

[Baba Yaga]

Okay, everything is clear as mud on this thread. First, there is great disagreement as to whether or not witchcraft is a religion or even a set of religions. Evidence is so vague that it can be used to support either point. We could spend years in this thread on that one topic.
The main topic here seems to be whether or not there is a genetic predisposition towards magical or psychic ability within certain bloodlines. Some say all humans have the potential. Some say it is like any other talent. Everyone can learn some proficiency, but only those with the genetic marker will show a true talent. Some say that those of the bloodlines, and only those will have these genetic traits. Some say that the inborn talent just pops up and ancestry doesn't matter.
Those who claim to be hereditary witches and do not want to share the title of witch seem surprised that people might be offended. I'm surprised at the surprise. People get offended when they feel excluded. People get offended when they feel patronized.
I don't know. I have been around the block a time or two and the "blood witch" advocates that I've run into have been arrogant. They have been exclusionary. What are they so protective of?
I believe someone referred o it as being "witchier than thou." I see these contests all the time at pagan gatherings and events. Why?
Just why?

[MercysFallen]

"Whatever the truth may be, there are people who believe in the principle of "witchblood" and it has deep meaning for them. It is part of the diversity of our beliefs as a community. I personally do not feel that calling these deeply held beliefs "BS" is really necessary. Perhaps just respectfully disagreeing might be a better approach."

Raven, I said that out of anger. I was "accused" of not being a Witch because I was not of Brit tradition. I'm sorry for the harsh post. I just can't see someone actually believing one must be born to a belief. Most pagan religion were chosen. It's a fact not many actually practice Paganism or old ways faith like they did thousands of years ago. The word witch along with pagan was considered a derogatory term. Just in recent times was it adopted as a religious practice.
But, as I stated I have people who practice Witchcraft in my family. But I don't believe I am of "witchblood" I chose to study and practice. That makes me a WITCH!

Ren

[IvyWitch]

Now, here is an interesting thought about this idea that only people with witchblood are true witches.

Everything had to start somewhere. Any family tradition or even a person who just does folk magic with no thought of it actually being so at all had to start with one person. That first person obviously wasn't born into a witch tradition or anything of the sort. So, by "witchblood" standard the first person in the family that practiced witchcraft wasn't a real witch. So, wouldn't that invalidate the entire claim? After all, you'd be descending from a witch who wasn't really a witch because they weren't born into it themselves.

[Philosophia]

Now, here is an interesting thought about this idea that only people with witchblood are true witches.
Everything had to start somewhere. Any family tradition or even a person who just does folk magic with no thought of it actually being so at all had to start with one person. That first person obviously wasn't born into a witch tradition or anything of the sort. So, by "witchblood" standard the first person in the family that practiced witchcraft wasn't a real witch. So, wouldn't that invalidate the entire claim? After all, you'd be descending from a witch who wasn't really a witch because they weren't born into it themselves.

* Good point. I never thought of that...Thanks! :fpraiseyo

[raven grimassi]

Everything had to start somewhere. Any family tradition or even a person who just does folk magic with no thought of it actually being so at all had to start with one person. That first person obviously wasn't born into a witch tradition or anything of the sort. So, by "witchblood" standard the first person in the family that practiced witchcraft wasn't a real witch. So, wouldn't that invalidate the entire claim? After all, you'd be descending from a witch who wasn't really a witch because they weren't born into it themselves.

That would make sense if we dismiss the metaphysical and occult principles of energy and magic. But what we are looking at is a form of contagion magic. Here the principle conveys one property to another, like sugar added to coffee makes it sweet, and the two exchange natures (the sugar becomes liquid like the coffee, and the coffee becomes sweet like the sugar).

Using the format of your example, I will give mine. In the past this "first person" worked with spirits, things of an Otherworld nature, and acquired magical skills. This resulted in his or her energy field (aura, chakras, etc) becoming charged with the contagion of what flowed to him or her. The occult teaching is that this is bound to the blood (what we might view as bound to the DNA in an energy pattern). The son or daughter of this person is passed the charge in his or her blood, and so on. So it is not about the first person not being a Witch, it is about what one has within to pass to on. This also makes the argument work in your favor, because anyone can acquire the energy like the "first person" did.


Personally I say it's just as offensive as claiming that unless you have "witchblood" you're not allowed to study/practice witchcraft.

I agree. Perhaps I missed something in this thread as I do not recall anyone saying that. I know that I personally said the opposite, and that anyone can be a Witch.


Now, I don't think it's BS, but I do think it comes out of the "I need to feel more specialer than you" syndrome.

As I stated, I have known several people who claim to be hereditary Witches, and they never came across as though that made them better than any other Witch. But at times I have seen people go very far out of their way to judge that hereditaries think they are superior.


Sure, people have ancestors that practice folk magic, and maybe even trace it back to some ancient Pagan tribe. But that doesn't mean those of us who don't have no valid claim to the path. .

I absolutely agree


The whole heriditary thing isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is that it seems like every "heriditary witch" I come across seems to feel the need to totally invalidate my own beliefs and practices because I'm not a born and bred witch. That, my friend, is what is BS.

I agree, but perhaps you can take comfort in meeting this hereditary Witch who does NOT feel that I am better or superior to you in any way.


I have been around the block a time or two and the "blood witch" advocates that I've run into have been arrogant. They have been exclusionary. What are they so protective of?

In my own experience, my "claim" to being from a hereditary line has brought nothing but rude remarks, ridicule, and criticism. I know this is true for many others as well. Perhaps some hereditary Witches get a defensive chip on their shoulder, which can be misinterpreted. And perhaps, like other human beings, some are just jerks.

I also imagine that just as some people are proud of being Irish, Scot, Welsh, German, Italian, French (etc) that some hereditary Witches are proud of their heritage. But I imagine that a bumper sticker saying "I'm Irish and proud!" is not as annoying as a bumper sticker saying "I am proud to be a hereditary Witch". ;)


* But wouldn't the "Witchblood" be diluted thus the power is weakened

Again, in theory, no, because this is not like a physical substance, it is an etheric charge that binds within the bloodline. Sawing a magnet in half does not make two weaker magnets, the charge remains equal in the separated the halves.


how does one determine if they have "witchblood" or not? If it can skip a generation, how would you know if it hasn't done the same for you?

In theory, it does not skip a generation. Some people just live their lives in a way where it never arises.

[Ben Gruagach]

There are lots of theories regarding lots of things. The problems (as we've seen here for example) is when a theory is treated like fact and is used as the basis for being condescending towards others.

It's a common problem within religious communities. Within the Christian community, there are those who are obnoxious in pushing their claim that their particular sect is the only "true Christianity." Within the Wiccan community, we have some who are obnoxious about pushing their opinion that they are the only "true Wiccans." And within the Witchcraft community, we have some who are obnoxious about insisting that they, and only they, are the "true Witches" and the rest of us are pretenders.

The theories are not really the problem -- it's how some people choose to treat others and the theories are convenient excuses for their poor behaviour. Personally, I think poor behaviour is particularly unbecoming of a person who claims to "know better" and presents themselves as a teacher, a leader, or an elder.

I'm glad that we DO have people like Raven Grimassi in our community who are able to discuss the theories honestly while demonstrating that it is possible to be respectful. In my experience, Raven always acts with wisdom and humility -- which makes him a worthy role model even if I don't agree all the time with the theories he presents.

[raven grimassi]

There are lots of theories regarding lots of things. The problems (as we've seen here for example) is when a theory is treated like fact and is used as the basis for being condescending towards others.

Yes, that is irritating to be sure.


It's a common problem within religious communities. Within the Christian community, there are those who are obnoxious in pushing their claim that their particular sect is the only "true Christianity." Within the Wiccan community, we have some who are obnoxious about pushing their opinion that they are the only "true Wiccans." And within the Witchcraft community, we have some who are obnoxious about insisting that they, and only they, are the "true Witches" and the rest of us are pretenders.

Yes, and at the core of this is probably some personal insecurity. I think that people who are confident in themselves, and who are not threatened by other views, are less inclined to thumb their noses at others.


The theories are not really the problem -- it's how some people choose to treat others and the theories are convenient excuses for their poor behaviour. Personally, I think poor behaviour is particularly unbecoming of a person who claims to "know better" and presents themselves as a teacher, a leader, or an elder.

Indeed, well said.


I'm glad that we DO have people like Raven Grimassi in our community who are able to discuss the theories honestly while demonstrating that it is possible to be respectful. In my experience, Raven always acts with wisdom and humility -- which makes him a worthy role model even if I don't agree all the time with the theories he presents.

Wow, thanks for the kind words!. But, how could anyone not agree with all my theories!? ;)

[Baba Yaga]

In my own experience, my "claim" to being from a hereditary line has brought nothing but rude remarks, ridicule, and criticism. I know this is true for many others as well. Perhaps some hereditary Witches get a defensive chip on their shoulder, which can be misinterpreted. And perhaps, like other human beings, some are just jerks.

I also imagine that just as some people are proud of being Irish, Scot, Welsh, German, Italian, French (etc) that some hereditary Witches are proud of their heritage. But I imagine that a bumper sticker saying "I'm Irish and proud!" is not as annoying as a bumper sticker saying "I am proud to be a hereditary Witch".

Most certainly you yourself have been very polite and open to discussion. I don't want to become so cynical that I start pigeon holing people.

[raven grimassi]

Most certainly you yourself have been very polite and open to discussion. I don't want to become so cynical that I start pigeon holing people.

That seems like a wise approach, and demonstrates your willingness to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. This speaks well of you. :cheers:

[Ben Gruagach]

Wow, thanks for the kind words!. But, how could anyone not agree with all my theories!? ;)

;)

It's like the old saying: "The devil is in the details."

;)

[raven grimassi]

;)

It's like the old saying: "The devil is in the details."

;)

You bet! :devil:

[Baba Yaga]

Well, i certainly appreciate the compliment, but i will admit that its hard not be cynical in a society that's all about keeping up with the joneses, you know?

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

Still sounds to me like you are saying only people who are born into it are "real witches" (TM).

:rolleyes:

Here's my take on the "witch blood" thing as I understand what is being said and my own opinions...

i think the phrasing "witchblood" is getting in the way of the underlying principle. It doesn't refer to a physical thing, necessarily- not actually being of a witch family, physically- having witch ancestors or a family who has practiced witchcraft for generations, but rather a spirtiual calling. The knowing that you are in fact a witch. The feeling you get. The knowing...i don't really know how to describe it better than that. I know i am a witch. i can't explain how or why...it wouldn't really help....my explaination would be too rambling i think, and a simple knowing is really all that it is when it boils down to it..stripped of any poetic speech i may have to describe it. So perhaps a better phrasing or way of thinking of it would be instead of witchblood - witch spirit.

I think also it comes down to being true to one's path, and being respectful of others. calling yourself one thing while really being another is disrespectful...but that being said it can be hard to draw a line between what is and is not a certain thing...and whose to draw this line anyway? A witch may be many different things, called many different things, but i think one thing remains the same. that inner spark, that makes a witch a witch...that unites us all dispite our differences. that thing inside you when you know you are on the right path, you know you are a witch, and it calls for you to stand up and proclaim it so....that inner knowing.

I don't think witch is a title anyone can give to another, but something you earn, or are born with - being witch is part of you, as any other part of your personality is. It makes you who you are. A talent - or part of you, you nuture and grow.

I don't know if i've made things any less confusing, or just added to it, lol. I hope it's helped to at least explain my views on the matter ^^;;

[IvyWitch]

Yes, I understand what you're saying. But my objection is that the witchblood concept is being presented at least by Athene on a purely physical level, if only because she insists on relating witchcraft with one's cultural heritage.

Since I was born Irish, it would be offensive to Native Americans if I decided to practice a form of NA Shamanism. Likewise, since I was not born a witch, I have no claim to the title.

And, I don't take the "born a witch" to mean that even if I have no family history if I "feel" like I am a witch doesn't make me born one. I didn't discover this connection until I was 15, and before that I have no history of strange things or an inexplicable affinity to anything mystical. However, I have done my faire share of study and practice. But, does that make me not a real witch? Does my past history not involving anything weird offend witches who do?

When it comes down to it, I really just want to know why you would tell someone that they're not a real witch (tm) with no good reason. That's the kind of witch war garbage that doesn't need to get started.

Witchcraft is exactly that - a craft. It's one you have to learn, study and practice. It's not some exclusive club that has to accept your credentials before you're allowed in.

[CleftOfLight]

ummmmmm did I just step into Harry Potter version of maigick? Are we realy going to start calling ourselves mudblood and pure bloods? Oh hum,how silly.

Actualy I have heard all this before,even growing up I have heard this from my mother and grand mother actualy.But like my mother and unlike my grandmother and great grandmother and so on,we don't realy care.Saposidly I have witches in my family and also my great grandmother had gypsy in her.But to me it doesn't make me any better and I never bring it up when I am around people because it is of very little interest.

If I have witches blood big whoop,if not oh well.And I would guess that most people that come from family witches or whatever feel the same.

But that could explaine why weird stuff always happens to me..lol.

[raven grimassi]

[color=Indigo] i think the phrasing "witchblood" is getting in the way of the underlying principle. It doesn't refer to a physical thing, necessarily- not actually being of a witch family, physically- having witch ancestors or a family who has practiced witchcraft for generations, but rather a spirtiual calling.

Yes, and this was the thrust of my book Spirit of the Witch.


And, I don't take the "born a witch" to mean that even if I have no family history if I "feel" like I am a witch doesn't make me born one.

At the risk of putting too much salt in the soup here, there is also the factor to consider that a reincarnated Witch is a Witch upon entry, and is born in this spirit. This does not depend on the bloodlines of the parent. In such a case the "soul contract" would be the factor in whether the soul practices Witchcraft in the new life experience, but the "essence of Witch" is still part of the soul's cumulative energy nature.


Well, i certainly appreciate the compliment, but i will admit that its hard not be cynical in a society that's all about keeping up with the joneses, you know?

There is an older society in which such things are without value.

[Baba Yaga]

There is an older society in which such things are without value.

Yeah, but I gotta live in this one.