I hate to bring up satan, but...

[Artemis84]

This is something I've been thinking about for a while. If some (I'm saying some because I don't know if this is the majority) Pagans believe that all gods and goddesses are aspects of Divinity and are legit., does that include satan? We all says we don't believe in the devil. But isn't he a god in a way? Not that I would want to even give credit to him, but it makes me wonder. Any ideas?

[Chibi-Fallon]

I've always thought of The Devil as a part of the Christian God. Like he has split personalities or something crazy like that. Since technically it says the God part is stronger you would call him by the name God. Just like someone with more then one personality the stronger one wins out most of the time so you normally know the person by that name and every so often the other personality pops up to scare the crap outta ya.

[UnSolon]

To paraphrase someone else who I read in this forum:
I respect and honour every god, but that doesent mean I will follow all of them.

Just as if we forget our history it is bound to repeat itself, if we ignore those gods who (generally) represent evil and harm, they will come bite us in the a$$.

So yeah... but is satan a god, or a fallen angel. Are angels gods?

[amberlaine]

I think this is a very interesting question.

Depending on who you ask, the concept of Satan brings up very different images. The CHristian image of Satan is very different from the Jewish notion of Satan which is different still from a Satanist's image of Satan. The concept of Divine Evil is not necessarily the same thing as Satan depending on who you are tlaking to, and yet most of us from Christian backgrounds associate the two as synonyms.

So the first question to ask is--which image of Satan are we dealing with? IF we're talking about the Christian image of Satan, we're dealing with an actual being who is opposed to God. If we're talking about Satan as represented in Satanism, we are talking about the force of energy that permeates the universe, that seeks to better itself and improve its position and that lends us our ability to do likewise. If we're talking about the Jewish Satan, we're not even really talking abotu an actual being so much as an internal accuser that is more or less a part of our own psyche.

I'm assuming that you are talking about the Christian image of Satan, this Supreme Being of Evil. If so, let's look at the paradigm that Christianity sets up for us.

The Christian paradigm is fundamentally different from most pagan paradigms that I"m familiar with in that its polarity exists not between male/female but good/evil. This is interesting, in my opinion, becuase God encompasses only that which is good--in fact God defines that which is good. All that is evil comes from his adversary. THis is not true in most pagan paradigms. In henotheistic pagan paradigms, God does not define good--God is part and particle of everything to some degree. In polytheist pagan paradigms, that which is good comes from one source (or several, of course) and that which is evil comes from another--but neither force is above nor below the other. THey are, for all intents and purposes, roughly equal.

So it can be difficult for a pagan to accept the CHristian paradigm at all, let alone the concept of Satan as a god. But if we are able to break out of our paradigms and look at the CHrisitan paradigm for what its worth rather than comparing it to ours, similarly we have to accept Satan as falling outside of the God-concept, so in that sense, Satan cannot be a deity, because this paradigm doesn't accept him as such.

Of course, we have still to consider Satanism. (Looking at Judaism really won't get us anywhere, as Jews don't really put much stock in the notion of Satan per se)

Depending on the level of sophistication of the Satanist in question, you'll get different views about what Satanists believe or how they view Satan. But at its core, my understanding is that Satan is neither good nor evil. Instead, he is gray--a being of self interest and exploration, a being of instinct and evolution--kill or be killed, that sort of mentality. The point is, this is an energy that to some extent, we *need*. We need to be able to kill. We need to be able to loko after ourselves. We need to be able to further our own agendas. The trick, of course, is doing this things in such a manner that doesn't screw everyone else in your path. But thats neither here nor there. In this system, Satan most certainly *is* deity--its nebulous, all permeating, emanative--it is the source of all. There is nothing outside it--everything is part of it and within in.

So, whether or not you see Satan as deity, as part of the "One" really depends on how you define Satan and how you define Deity. Is Deity all black or all white? Is Deity simple or compelx? IS your view of Deity dualistic? I think there are a lot of factors to consider when contemplating the concept of Satan, simplly becuase this is a concept that appears in several religions with quite different connotations.

[Avena]

It is worth mentioning that the Christian Satan (or the common image of Satan) has a few things in common (randomly or not :rolleyes: ) with pagan deities. Just some examples:

He was associated with the goat (which is, for example, the sacred animal of the Norse God Thor or the Greek god Pan) as well as with the cat (In Egypt celebrated as a goddess, in northern Europe associated with goddesses as Freya) or the owl (sacred animal of wisdom)

The noun "devil" has its origin in the words Devi (sanskrit for Goddess) or dea (latin for goddess)

Satan was (in the middle ages e.g.) sometimes also called "Pluto" (Roman God), "Lucifer" (Roman god) or "Appollyon" (Apollo)

*****

[Danustouch]

Well...the thing is, IMO, Satan, is an invention of the Judeo-Christian Path. I think he serves as a "morality" teacher, in that he's simply the example of everything that followers of the Judeo Christian path should "not" be.

Being that he's been invented by Christian Mythos, we must ask ourselves what Christians believe he is. And, in Christian Mythos, he is most certainly not a God. He is an Angel..a Fallen Angel, and subject to their God.

So..I don't personally believe that we have to aknowledge him, or respect him as another God. Because in their mythology, he's NOT a God.

Some of the common images/traits/mythology surrounding Satan, seems to be related to, and perhaps adapted from earlier pre-judeo Christian Gods whom were worshipped. But if we are saying Satan, as in the Biblical Satan, whom Christians believe in. Then No.

[Danustouch]

Incidentally, Angels in most cultures are not Worshipped. Angels are seen as otherworldly beings, much like our elementals, etc. I don't necessarily Worship the Elementals, though I do ask for their help, and aknowledge their powers and presence. Angels, in Christian Mythos, are created beings, like ourselves, though without free will, and without other benefits which Humans were created with (according to Christian beliefs). Indeed, in much of Christian Mythology, we see Angels being Servants of God, and some might even argue, servants of Humans, according to Gods' will. They are helpers, in other words. Not to be worshiped. For to worship them, would be idolotrous, by their standards. Much as the Saints are "Revered" though few would say they are Worshiped, by catholics. In Judeo Christian Thought, The only "entities" you are supposed to worship, would be the Trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Anything else, would be idolotrous. Which is the entire reason that Satan *became* the charachter that he has according to their legends. Because he wanted to be worshiped, and thus was committing the deadly Sin of Pride.

[Sequoia]

personally, I don't belive in some all-mighty evil guy named Satan. I belive that maybe there's some gods who are more into chaos, anarchy, destruction, pain, etc but not some supreme evil dude. I think there's enough evil to go around LOL

btw with the christian belief that he's a fallen angel. . . ok. So god is omnipotent, right? He can do anything, right? Then WHY THE H'CK DIDN'T HE JUST SAY "NO" TO SATAN, GRAB HIS DISOBEDIENT LITTLE ANGEL BUTT, SPANK HIM, AND PUT HIM IN HIS PLACE?! Why the H'CK did He let him go create an evil underworld? And once He SAW what was going on, why didn't He just GET RID OF IT!? What, is god a masochist or something? "hmmm let's see, I created them with free will. . . I KNOW! I need a beta tester for that will!! Satan, you little upstart, you. Why don't you test them for a little bit and let me know how it turns out, ok?" I mean, HONESTLY! if I was god and I saw all this crud going on because of one little uppity angel, his *ss would be toast! Really! Why's it taking so long? -_-; then again, if god is like microsoft. . .

[Myst]

Satan exists as the polar opposite to God. Good cannot exist without evil. Therefore, Satan is the deity of evil that opposes God. He may have been an angel but he has become the symbol for absolute evil and self interest. If you don't believe in "good" and "evil" per se, then he is the representation of putting oneself above all else, vs doing good for others to the exclusion of oneself. To me he is more of a symbolic energy, an archetype.

God did not "spank his butt" because Satan exists as an archetype, a necessity, an absolute, a scapegoat and an example of what you should not be. His existence is necessary in the beliefs of some.


I believe he does exist on some plane, if even as a thoughtform or collection of energy, as I believe all entities exist when they are believed in or thought of - to think of him is to add a little more of his energy to the universe.. perhaps why it's believed you shouldn't speak his name lest he hear you (because you access his energy). And as someone said, just because you believe a God exists doesn't mean you have to worship him.

[Danustouch]

Quite Right, Myst. He is an ENTITY in the Christian faith...not a god. A fallen angel...a spirit...an archetype.

God didn't spank his butt, and put him in his place, because for Humans to be able to HAVE free will, there must be a "bad" choice, as well as the "Good" choices.

I mean..if you did not know that there were other paths you choose to follow in life, other choices that you could make, then What would be the point of having free will.

In Christian Philosophy (and, I'm speaking as someone who was a youth ministry major in college, and was , at one point, a born again christian).."God" wants people to come to him of their own free will. He does not want obediant slaves, he wants a personal relationship with his creation. Therefore, he does not want to be a dogmatist, and make the choice FOR you.

I know that then we can get into the issue, of why then do people get "Sent to Hell" if they make the wrong choice? Because...he is still leaving the choice to YOU. In Christian theology...God doesn't SEND you to hell. You choose to go there by your actions.

Similar to our Pagan belief of Karma. The Gods aren't sitting up there weighing our actions, and waiting for us to screw up so they can "Zap" us with bad Karma. Karma is a consequence, a natural consequence to choices we make. WE create our Karma. God, in the Christian belief does not send anyone to hell. They send themselves there.

I may not agree with the Christian philosophy, for my own life, but I do have an understanding, and respect for it.

[Sequoia]

when I say belive in, I mean do not put faith in or worship. . . not that he doesn't exist to others.

And yes, I can see how there would be a need for personification of the "good" and "evil" forces in life. . . I just personally see them in everything.

I'm not trying to say Christianity is wrong. I'm just trying to express my viewpoint that the concept of an all-loving god who allows pain, evil, etc to happen (and sometimes causes it himself) is at the least something to raise an eyebrow at. I don't know about you, but I don't really think I'd want to be best friends with such a vengeful, jealous god. Doesn't He even say he's such?

btw- I wasn't intending to sound incredibly serious with what I said in the previous post. Much of it was sarcasm.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Puma Hime
I'm not trying to say Christianity is wrong. I'm just trying to express my viewpoint that the concept of an all-loving god who allows pain, evil, etc to happen (and sometimes causes it himself) is at the least something to raise an eyebrow at. I don't know about you, but I don't really think I'd want to be best friends with such a vengeful, jealous god. Doesn't He even say he's such?


The point is Satan isn't a physical being - but an archetype, a type of energy. You draw on him when you sin, whereas you draw on God when you're good. Satan epitomizes the "bad" you can do, he isn't meant to be a literal physical character. Thus yes he exists in everyone and everywhere, not just as some guy with horns in the underworld. God, as Danus said, doesn't "let bad things happen", bad things happen due to sin, due to bending to the energy of Satan. He let's you choose your way.

We also have to remember the Bible, if you're getting your info from there, is the interpretations and writings of MEN, not God, and is therefore flawed by human perceptions.

[Sequoia]

We also have to remember the Bible, if you're getting your info from there, is the interpretations and writings of MEN, not God, and is therefore flawed by human perceptions.


And we also have to remember that unless one has personally gone and talked to god and hung out in heaven and hell and talked to satan; OR one has found out miraculously that they are energy, and not beings; OR one has found that they ARE physical beings in some surreal world. . . . etc etc. . . . .that one is simply presenting his or her own views.

BTW, most Christians I know base their beliefs at least in part on the bible. When I was, I know I did. To you he's not a physical being, to others he may be. I'm simply arguing against the idea I have, that I have seen reinforced in others. And my words were more emphasized on the fact that god actually CAUSED some pain and such himself (I think that split-personalities idea someone mentioned earlier was great LOL would make sense). Would this mean that GOD was sinning? or GOD was using Satans energy? I don't really know. It's not that imporant to me.

To me there are darker beings, there are lighter beings, and ALL beings have at least a speck of darkness or light in them, even if they don't seem it. To me, there's ALWAYS a balence of some sort, even if someone's trying to get it to fully balence. ^^; if that makes any sense

[Danustouch]

Well..the problem, Puma, is that you're getting into some really deep theological stuff here. The fact is, the God described in the Old Testament of the Bible, was referred to as a Jealous, and Vengeful God. Yes..that much is true. However, as Myst pointed out..that was written, and interpreted by HUMANS....who often make mistakes, and have their own hidden agenda for placing meanings upon differen't occurances.

Secondly...we must aknowledge, when talking about Christians, that there is a HUGE division between the Old Testament,and the New Testament.

In Christian Philosophy, Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies of old, and, in some ways, to shatter them. In other words..the Old Testament was filled with stories about Gods' wrath, because his people were gone "Astray". But..when Jesus came, and died, he gave humanity another chance. In christian philosophy...he paid the ultimate price, taking all of Gods wrath upon himself. In the old testament, there wasn't much you could do about sin. If you sinned, there was the consequence of Hell. But in the New Testament, your Faith in Jesus alone, allows you to escape this "Death Sentence". That means that no matter how many times you screw up after that...your Faith in Jesus alone, saves you. So...the Jealous God that you speak of...is probably a twisted representation, that some human, somewhere along the line, came up with. It is not represented by Jesus. It is not Jesus' teachings about his Father, or himself. Humans have interpreted the bible. Thus...the preachers, the teachers, etc, that we have throughout history, were imperfect, thus..their TEACHINGS were imperfect.

Again..I may not agree with Christian Philosophy..but..I do try to understand it...and study it, so that I can argue with some knowledge :)

[Sequoia]

you have a point hehe

[Myst]

Danus : absolutely correct. That's exactly what I was thinking. There are those who interpret to their own needs - either to judge others by their religion, or to judge other religions by their own interpretations. It is important to try to see all sides of the story, and all interpretations, to get a fair idea, which is what I think you've exemplified here.

That's why I love coming to MW - we can come here and share and learn from eachother. There's no need to expect another person to not share their beliefs because it is their opinion here, instead we are encouraged to continue discussing even if we do disagree, so that we can learn other outlooks instead of closing ideas off.

Being as I come to MW to discuss and learn I assume everyone knows everything I post is my opinion, and there's no need to clarify it as such.

[bansidhe]

okies...funny enough, me and sean were discussing this the other day! :)
so, this is roughly what we came up with...

The modern concept of Satan didn't really exist until the Roman Catholic Church had spread across Europe. Satan and the
concept of hell as we now hear it was created the scare the everliving poo out of the common people so that the Church would remain in absolute authority. Too many people were still following the old ways.
Now, the being known as Lucifer did fall from the grace of God (and Goddess). Angels do exist ....they are what most "pagans" consider lesser Gods.
Lucifer disagreed with his Creators over the purpose they had set for him and took off, actually managing to fulfill that purpose by gaining control over the chaos of the demon realms and establishing some semblance of order there...bad things do happen for good reasons....
Light and Good cannot exist without Dark and
Evil, so don't you think Lucifer fell for a purpose? He's necessary for anything to remain balanced....The God and Goddess, or either one, could remove him without a problem if they so chose...by the way, the God and Goddess are outside the balance, being perfectly balanced themselves and between them. They are neither good or evil, light or dark, but have elements of all...just like thier creations....

this is just imo, so dont anyone take offence, okies?! :) i dont even know if itll make sense to you guys...well, it does to me anyways!!! :)

[lucidfire]

I've had some crazy thoughts on this. I found it interesting how similar the image of Satan was to the horned one, and had the idea that maybe they were trying to demonize the image, disinformation or something like that.

I sometimes see deity as a collective visualization thing, and if you've got all these Satanists putting chaos or something into an image you use as well, that could be dangerous

Then again, it may have not been intentional. I suppose I should give people the benefit of the doubt. It's just my crazy writer's mind going off....

[bansidhe]

lucid:-
i read somewhere that the horned god is where they got the idea for satan at the time. cant remember where tho! sowwie ! (my memory aint quite THAT good! ;) )

[Myst]

Well actually the belief that Satan's image is based on the Horned one has been a popular one for years, especially by those Pagans who are absolutely convinced that those 'evil' Christians just bastardized Pagan beliefs to their own needs.

I also read somewhere that people believe it's due to the fact that God's people are said to be sheep ('the lord is my shepherd' etc.) and therefore the goat is evil.. somehow. It also reminds me of this song "sheep go to Heaven, goats go to Hell" but I can't remember who did it.

[bansidhe]

i dont know where i read that myst...i tried to find it last night and couldnt. :(
never heard of that song tho...

[Danustouch]

Keith Green had a song called "the sheep and the goats". He was a brilliant christian songwriter, actually. Active in the Seventies.

Anyway, I know what you're saying Myst.

As for the thought that Gods' followers are referenced to as "sheep"...rather than goats, I have a feeling it is because that particular culture placed a higher value on sheep at the time. I'm not a farmer, so don't know much about this..but maybe, also because sheep "flock" and goats are more "loners"?

Anyway, the biblical reference to the followers of God as sheep, especially in Psalms, is to be taken as a compliment, rather than an insult, which unfortunately, many make the mistake of doing. Shepherds take great care of their flocks....there's a book somewhere out there called "A Shepherds' look at Psalm 23"...it describes the behavior of sheep and shepherds, and shows you how much care goes into maintaining a flock of sheep. The verse that says.."Though anointest my head with oil"..for instance. Sheep are very vulnerable to pests, which get into their ears, and their nose. Shepherds must anoint their head with a certain type of oil to repel these pests. "Thou leadest me beside cool waters"...sheep have a tendency to drink any water they find, no matter how polluted. It is a shepherds duty to keep them from drinking this "foul" water, and to lead them to clean water sources. Another part of that chapter refers to sheep being "Cast Down", and God "Raising them up"..or something to that effect. The term "Cast" as it refers to sheep, is interesting. If a sheep somehow manages to fall down, and roll onto it's back, it cannot get up without the help of the shepherd. If it lays on it's back for too long, gasses build up in the Rumen (the abdomen)..and the sheep can die. So the illustration of the sheep, and shepherd, is used throughout the Judeo-Christian path to illustrate "Gods" love for his followers, in a way that people at the time, being mostly "shepherds" and agriculturists, could understand.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Keith Green had a song called "the sheep and the goats". He was a brilliant christian songwriter, actually. Active in the Seventies.

I think you're confused, Danustouch.

The song is "Sheep go to Heaven" and the artist was Cake.

[Danustouch]

Never heard that one Illuminatus..but I don't doubt you. But Keith Green did do a song called "the Sheep and the Goats" about the same topic.

[Myst]

Yeah I thought it was Cake but I wasn't sure. It makes me giggling just thinking about it, even though it's such a dumb song. :)

[Illuminatus]

hee hee.. well.. I think the Cake song might have come later (like 1996)

[Kadynas]

I haven't really formed an opinion on this myself. Although I have talked to a couple Satanists lately that say there is no diety in their particular path, i.e. they don't actually worship Satan. Rather it's like a set of lifestyles choices and guidelines or something. I admit I was rather surprised to find that of all people, Satanists didn't worship Satan! And if /they/ don't see him/it as a god then should anyone else? But then the other part of me thinks maybe he could be considered a deity in a way, because there's dark and light in everything. But it really doesn't apply enough to me to think about too deeply... not part of my pantheon! :lol:

[kittiepoetrygod]

I would say it depends completely on what you think of Satan as. I think of Satan as a made up being, not real at all, so for me he is non-existent. If its non-existent, it can't do anything to me, nor can i do anything to it. Its nothing.

However, if i did beileve that he existed in some degree, and it would depend on wheather i beileved him to be a form of energy or thought or a astral or angelic or dietial (?) being. Than i would define his divinity. If he was any of those, he might be a divine being. Since i don't beileve him to be, he isn't for me.

Did that make any sense?

[lucidfire]

Ahh yes, the great horned one, Cernunnos. You're probably right about that one, bansidhe. I've heard it said too that satan wasn't always part of the religion, and that it was created around the burning times to explain the attrocities that were committed in the name of god, saying basically "the devil made me do it!" Like a scapegoat (laff) in other words. Many modern Satanists say they worship god in man instead of seeing god as something external; interesting idea, but to me it's just strange to base your ideals off your disagreements of others, bad karma or something, who knows; it's just my instincts on the matter

[Sequoia]

hmm. . .perhaps if you do belive in the christian ways of "god created everything". . . maybe god is a: a masochist or b: gets bored easily and created himself an arch-nemesis? He thought "hmm ok It hink I'll destine this little guy to be my most powerful enemy. *send angel off*"

^^; just a thought

And hai, you could also say that as "god created him to balence the universe."

But I like "arch-nemesis" better ^^;

[flar7]

starts out in the old testament as the fallen angel. The most
beautiful of angels, not goat boy. The church later goats him
up to help cast a bad light on those nasty pagans. To also
associate him with the animal side of man.

So, Satan as a god? no. Something with power? yes, just ask Job.
notice also that God allowed that to happen? When dealing with
God in the Judeo Christian thinking, remember as long as you
stayed true to God, or were forgiven, you went to heaven.
Thereby justifying any pain or misery you went through on earth,
and that in heaven you either have no memory of it, or a different
perspective because it says there is no sadness in heaven..?

A father will do everything to protect his children, but cant always.
To a child, a father CAN DO OR STOP anything, regardless of if its
true or not. I tend to think of God as a father figure wanting to
help, and wanting us to help ourselves. Grow my son, be good,
learn from life, help others.

had to make some more corrections...man I was tahrd last nite.

[Lucidia]

these satan related arguments are usually pretty messy.

i personally don't believe in any gods at all.

in my opinion, the nature of spirituality is so very complex, that we can only begin to define it, through human terms and knowledge, and thus, just as there are many different people, and they each have a different personality, religions have taken on many forms.

in one such religion, there is satan. I agree with many statements where people have noted that he is really kind of a scapegoat. blame it on satan so god doesn't get blamed for it.

it's all very silly to me.

I don't believe in any seperate sentient gods. I think that people choose to grab a hold of a certain part of the greater whole that is true spirituality. If someone chose to worship satan as a god, they would be neither wrong, or right. they would simply be.

Just because something isn't in an ancient holy book surely doesn't make it wrong, does it? and just because something IS in some ancient holy book, does that mean it's correct?

obviously not. In fact... In accepting that there are many paths that all lead down the same road, we must accept that people may follow any path they wish, and no one is wrong or right. we all simply are.

[Haedis]

I agree with Myst ( I think it was), I see Satan as a Jungian archetype. A concept which to me holds as much water as the archetype of the God which represents everything good. I think its a xtian attempt to personify the "dark" forces they saw in humanity and nature, just like God was a personification of the "light" forces. I dont agree with such a cut and dry philosophy on good and evil. I think that the Higher Power of the Universe is both good and evil, therefore I dont recognise any concepts of pure good and pure evil. So to me the Devil, as defined by the xtian paradigm, is not an actual God. I think there are Gods who represent the "darker" aspects of life, but nothing is truely evil. I think if you believe in something, then to you it will exsist.

[Xander67]

well are you refering to Lucifer, the "morning star" the one who "sheds light on things"

read Job, Lucifer had free access to God and earth, even though he was cast out of heaven

Satan, ah yes his other name, Hmmmmm
interesting how Certian religions use Satan as nothing more than a device to maintain control by exploiting fears...

NOT REAL? well obviously christianity is kinda dependant on the "fear factor"

Not Real?

if thats the case then does that mean sept 11th was an act of GOD? or just mans free will ...

or mans confused interpretation of the truth?

[Kian]

ok this line from a poem entitled "God" by Simon Le Bon keeps running through my head as I read this thread:

"God created the world. Then he created the Devil to blame for his mistakes."



There are good and bad sides to everyone's personality, even (or especially) the gods and goddesses. "Satan" to me is a purely Christian term though and they have him as a purely evil entity, separate from God who they see as purely good, ignoring lots of stuff in the Old Testament where he says he is a jealous, vengeful god... but I digress.

Sorry :P

[Xander67]

That is Interesting Kian,

but you know I had a thought.... If Satan, (or evil did not exist) then what would certain religous groups be able to use to prey on the fear factor?

[Kian]

ah yes.... what came first, Judeo/Christian mythos or Satan?

Before the writers of the old testament, and definitely before the new testament which is where the real fear of "believe and follow this loving god or he will condemn you to eternal damnation" really came into play, did people have a fear of not worshipping a deity? Or was it more, do as you will? Or was fear always brought in by someone (ie, worship or your crops will fail or something along those lines)?

[Lilith Rain]

And I do believe in angels (the Watchers and the like), I simply believe he is an angel. Not a devil. I lost my belief in devils quikly when I realised that without dark there can be no light.

[Xander67]

:) wow, looks like someone has been looking at things with both eyes ;)



I believe that Light sometimes uses darkenss to propigate its will, its part of the divine picture...(being that it is not in light's nature to do "dark acts", but does that make it wrong?

is all dark wtong?

In my opinion , mabey, as long as it serves the big picture, it is not necisarily evil, bu tif it violates the laws of nature and the order of things, then yes it is bad....

example .Judas, some say he betrayed Jesus,
but Jesus knew what he was going to do , and in fact
commanded him to do it quickly,,"whatever thou must do, go and do it quickly"

now, perhaps Judas was acting in accordance with devine will in fullfilling his task....but yes he did "tell the authorities where jesus was'

does that mean Judas was EVIL?????

[Lilith Rain]

It's always best to do so when you're practicing Witchcraft or any religion for that matter.

[Xander67]

Originally posted by Lilith Rain
It's always best to do so when you're practicing Witchcraft or any religion for that matter.

yeah, but then, apply it to everyday life without the religious aspects .............now that can be ........:rolleyes: interesting:)

[mol]

Originally posted by amberlaine


I'm assuming that you are talking about the Christian image of Satan, this Supreme Being of Evil.

Thats not Satan.

Thats me.

[mol]

Originally posted by Artemis84
This is something I've been thinking about for a while. If some (I'm saying some because I don't know if this is the majority) Pagans believe that all gods and goddesses are aspects of Divinity and are legit., does that include satan? We all says we don't believe in the devil. But isn't he a god in a way? Not that I would want to even give credit to him, but it makes me wonder. Any ideas?

It could include. It depends on what YOU want. We can tell you what we think about Satan. Or even quote historical texts and history about the legend, myth, truth, whatever about Satan. But in the end its all just fuel for you.

What I am trying to say is...what do You think?

[mol]

Originally posted by Xander67


does that mean Judas was EVIL?????

Thats a whole other thread all together. Asking that question you are assuming that most or all people believe in the concept of 'Evil'.

[Xander67]

Personally,
BUt what I was tryign to say with that illustration was...


should he be punished for doing what he was supposed to do, or had he not betrayed him, he would have been working against the whole prophecy thing....


just a thought

[TheTheologin]

I believe that satan is a tool used by the church to keep their business open. Think about it............if there was no satan then ppl wouldn't go to church to repent for their "sins' there would be now way to keep them believing that "god" makes everything that is good and wholesome.

[Avena]

Originally posted by Kian
ok this line from a poem entitled "God" by Simon Le Bon keeps running through my head as I read this thread:

"God created the world. Then he created the Devil to blame for his mistakes."



I'd call it "God created the world. Then mankind created the Devil to blame for their mistakes."

My granny (usually a very catholic person) told me when I asked for satan once, that the actual evil happening in the world isn't caused by Satan's presence, but rather by God's absence.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Avena
My granny (usually a very catholic person) told me when I asked for satan once, that the actual evil happening in the world isn't caused by Satan's presence, but rather by God's absence.

Very wise words.

Also makes me think of one of my friends in highschool who's family believed in God but didn't "believe" in Satan. Kind of exactly what you said.

[Epona44]

In wandering among the philosphy in bookstores, and the teachings of Catholic school, (I went there for the education. My mum is Vedanta and my dad is Buddhist, so go figure) I came to the conclusion that the perception of a god changes as people change.

This does not mean the god, or nature, or the force of nature that is deified changes, but our perception does.

In a class on the Old Testament in Catholic college, I recall the teacher, a Protestant female divinity student, going meticulously over the first few chapters of the bible, Genesis in particular.

She asked us why we thought Genesis seemed to repeat itself. Unlike a story with a linear thread, it seemed to start, start again and then pick up far down the road, then backtrack.

In some instances God is called by one name, then by another. The writing style seems different in different passages. That's because it was.

What Genesis is, she said, is a collection of creation stories written at various times by different groups of people, in one case a priest caste who called the supreme being Jahweah, then another group that called the same entity Lord.

She said the stories were passed down orally until someone decided to write them down. It was felt that it would be wrong to edit them so they were simply written whole with their inconsistancies.

The Bible is a product of men and represents a vision of God passed through the filter of thousands of years of changing human perceptions.

It is meant to be a guide for those who believe in it. Now back to the original question. Is Satan a god?

It's a question of perception isn't it?

In Native American myths there is a trickster, like Satan, the coyote. He teaches through his opportunism, and those who would run with the trickster must learn to recognize what he is in order to beat him.

Loki, sometimes referred to as the Norse god of evil, was also a different sort than the other gods of Asgard.

While they hung around the great halls singing of honor and great deeds in battle, Loki tried to figure things out. He was more of the technical sort, which made the Norse mistrust him.

So they perceived him as evil.

[nehelia]

Kalil Gibran wrote a very beautiful story about a priest who finds Satan close to death on the road and is persuaded to save his life through that same reasoning, that Satan and God complement each other

to me its an excellent illustration of polarities--if you have something ultimately good, ultimate evil must also exist in order for the two to be properly defined

[Danustouch]

*BUMP*

Psssssssssssst. MistoftheSea....

Read my responses on the first page of this thread. I noticed your sig..and thought i'd bump this for you. It's that whole free will thing, you see ;) (in Christian theology, that is).

[alain]

to further complicate the issue posted by Theo...

I believe that satan is a tool used by the church to keep their business open. Think about it............if there was no satan then ppl wouldn't go to church to repent for their "sins' there would be now way to keep them believing that "god" makes everything that is good and wholesome.

... if belief in something (i.e. satan) makes it more powerful, and the church uses fear of the evils which go to all bad little boys and girls (i.e. satan poking them in the butts with his pitchfork) rather than love of god, doesn't that make satan more powerful than god?

[fey]

Thanks for the interesting read. Personally, I've always found it hard to believe in the typical picture of what Christians call Satan. I was raised in the Presbyterian Church, so we didn't so much have all the "fire and brimstone" that you might find in other denominations. I always thought it was all rather silly. I do believe there is evil (for lack of a better word), but certainly not expressed as a horny red guy with a pitchfork. Ok, maybe horned would have been a better word to use. lol

[Myst]

See to me, he is an archetype representing evil. I think of our Gods as archetypes, all faces of One. So he, to me, is a symbol of "not being good". I see a lot more behind it as far as free will and judgment in another form then most people - God forgives. You might even think of them as polar opposites, representing positive and negative (sound familiar?).

Christianity has been perverted by people, to be sure. But I feel a lot of people really don't take the time to consider what it's *really* about, and that the Bible was written and has been interpreted by people who have used it to exert power over others forever. A lot of people who call themself Christian are confused, IMHO. But then, isn't that like others telling me I'm worshipping Satan by being Pagan?

So I suppose in the end I'd rather see all religions as a path to One, and worry about my *own* beliefs and if I'm true to them, rather then judging others.

[fey]

"So I suppose in the end I'd rather see all religions as a path to One, and worry about my *own* beliefs and if I'm true to them, rather then judging others."


Exactly. I've always like the "different paths leading to the grove in the forest" analogy.