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Darius Asgaroth
November 18th, 2001, 05:31 PM
I look around me to see that our people a seperated in beliefs and many other ways. I see how some of our people fear what might happen if normal people found out what they were. I am sick of wiccans having to hide in the shadows in fear of the christian threat. I think we should all unite in designated areas and together live in peace without the threat of being misunderstood or suffering from the stereotypes that plague us. We must join together in an area so that our children and grandchildren can walk out onto the streets and know that they don't have to worry about being insulted just because of what they are. Mainly I see how easy it would be to do this yet nobody in the past has tried. In my community I have come out as a witch and have been ridiculed for it. I see that these people no matter what I do refuse to give up their petty prejudices. My dream is that my children will be able to state what they are without suffering the same ridicule I do. I believe the first step to bringing peace to us is to create a community or center where the entire population is pagan. This place will be a safe haven for those that are outcasts and suffer from the stereotypes that I suffer from now. In this community there will be peace without the threat of ridicule. If you share my views please email me at: Abyse2000@yahoo.com. Thank you.

bansidhe
November 18th, 2001, 05:59 PM
its a sweet idea but...i guess its like saying that we cant stick up for ourselves and live in mixed communities like "normal" people ( funny, i never use the word "normal"!) one of the things that i pride myself on is that i take people for what they are, no matter what their religious, political or racial views they are. i grew up in northern ireland, in a strict protestant family and i now attend a luthern skool (my views on this college are spread far and wide throughout mw...!) and i get a fair bit of stick for my beliefs, but now that people see that they cant tear me down or sway me, they begin to respect my beliefs. put it this way, at my skool, there are now a lot more pagan friendly teachers and students. this is because when theyve taken me aside to tell me im going to hell, or where ever, ive explained to them about my way of life, dispelling any fears they have. okies, so not everyone listens, but everyone who does is one less arrogant closed minded person i guess. segregating ourselves from the general community will not only withdraw support from those 'still in the broom closet' but look like we have something to hide.
omg! :eek: how much have i writen?!

*quietly gets off soapbox...*

talamh
November 18th, 2001, 06:00 PM
i think this might work.. but i worry about a lot of things.. like who owns the property and where a group would find such a haven and how it would be financed.

i also see a danger in "gettoizing" pagans and seperating ourselves from ever becoming a "normal" part of the landscape the same as many other diverse spiritual belief systems.

i live in a fairly isolated and remote .. and conservative...place, but in the past 10 years we have consciously worked to make information available to the local media and the local police about paganism in general and wicca in particular.

In fact, i was just saying today that this is the first Samhain/Hallowe'en in the 10 years we have been doing this that we haven't had any requests from any of the media to do a "witches at Hallowe'en" piece. i guess we have become too ordinary and boring.. at least i hope so.

We also work with the struggling Pagan Society on campus and with the departments of religious studies and anthropology to provide speakers on request.

The end result is that i hope we have done ourselves out of a job in terms of normalizing who we are. There will always be closed-minded people but that's really not my problem, fortunately.

It is good once a year to go to a pagan gathering in a nearby province (www.aepg.org) and live in a totally pagan environment for a few days... and it *is* always hard to leave.

But i would be concerned that a large exclusively pagan community would be too fraught with the basic organizational and financial worries and problems to be functional in the long term.

Still.. it's a lovely idea. bb talamh

bansidhe
November 18th, 2001, 06:00 PM
and its not juss wiccans...
:)

Shadowulfe
November 18th, 2001, 07:59 PM
I voted for the fist option allthough there is allready a Pagan Safe Haven in southern Indiana. the name of the place is Lothlorien. the web site for them is: Lothlorien Nature Sanctuary (http://www.elflore.org)
they are also looking for a new site to start another safe haven

Enjoy!,
Shadowulfe

p.s. may i add that I highly recommend Lothlorien! they are very friendly! it is a wonderful place to go to and make friends!

Pheonix
November 18th, 2001, 09:19 PM
I voted yes, but that was before I realized what was meant by a safe haven. I think we as pagans should have a safe place to meet and be together but actua entire neighborhoods is terifying. Hasn't history already taught us that not only is segregation wrong but it has desasterous results. Those not licky enough to within a community would be faced with incredible discrimination!
I can't see how this would be any better than the racial segration that plagues our past.

Myst
November 18th, 2001, 10:06 PM
Interesting idea but I'd rather continue living with the people I do now - I have family and friends who aren't Pagan nor would I ever ask them to be, I learn things from people who aren't Pagan as well.

It is not "a Christian threat" and I hate that term - not all Christians are prejudiced and not all who are prejudiced against Pagans are Christians.

But then again I've never faced prejudice or fear about my beliefs.

Angelwulfe
November 18th, 2001, 10:36 PM
p.s. may i add that I highly recommend Lothlorien! they are very friendly! it is a wonderful place to go to and make friends! [/B][/QUOTE]
that's actually where we met each other. i also agree pheonix that a pagan safe haven migh tcouse segregation. we don' tneed to be separted from the out side world.

Danustouch
November 18th, 2001, 10:44 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Myst. To say.."The Christian Threaght" is extremely biased. For it isn't ALL christians who don't like pagans, and it isn't ONLY christians who do not like pagans either.

I can certainly understand the sentiments of wanting to be in a place where you are loved, and accepted for who you are. And a place where you would not have to deal with predjudice, etc.

But by stepping out of that world, and disconnecting from it, are you not totally giving up on the world? If you see a problem with society...it is up to you to try and change it. Not to just.."Resighn" from it. Where would we have been, if African Americans had withdrawn, and formed their own little community during the Civil Rights movement, for instance?

And people HAVE tried to form "Safe Havens" in the past. Not all of them Pagan. They are called..."Communes". And many of them, have not worked in the long run. Some do, and last for a long time, but even Communes have their problems.

I think we must be careful not to be TOO idealistic. The truth is, you can never run from your problems. You either have to stay, and fight them (as in, fight for change), or take them with you whereever you went. For instance, if you formed a Pagan Safe Haven, Undoubtedly disagreements would arise between various members of various paths as to which was the "right" path, the path with the most "lineage", or the "most powerful"..(admit it..it happens in the Pagan Community, all too often.).

What I would advocate, instead, is a network of people, and places, dedicated to helping Pagans who are facing difficulties finding housing, or jobs. Pagans who are facing severe oppression, etc. Not necessarily a commune, but "Safe houses" or Resource centers, all across the world. Where Pagans in trouble could go for help. These wouldn't be communes, as I said, but..."Safe houses". For instance, if a Pagans life were in jeapardy because of their beliefs (as in some people in their community were making death threaghts)..they could go there, and stay for a while, until things settled down, or until they found a new home. A place that they could go for Job training and referrals, for companies which have shown absolute acceptance of ALL religions, even Pagan ones. Etc.

What we need to do, is not to withdraw from the world. But to fight to make it a better place. And in the mean time, take care of our members, as well. Help those who are having problems, because of their faith.

But likewise, we also should attempt to help ALL of those facing religious predjudices of ALL types. As it is not just Pagans who are facing religious oppression.

IMO...Pagans, as ALL people, should be advocates of religious tolerance. That means, helping ANYONE who is being persecuted for their beliefs.

Old Witch
November 18th, 2001, 10:47 PM
:) As an old Trekkie(not to be confused with young trekkers) I believe in IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations, the only way the future will work.( My humble opinion).

Yvonne Belisle
November 18th, 2001, 11:57 PM
People fear what they do not understand to seperate ourselves from others we draw a line in the sand and it isn't a fighting line. It is a line of hatred and predudism that down the line would destroy what so many have worked so hard to build. For example there are Christians on this board that are open minded enough to judge us by our actions and our words instead of superstision and fear. All a segragated society would do is make it so that people that are like them would become fewer and farther apart. Look at what it did with the blacks of the south. Yes the segragation there was involuntary but how long do you think it would be before it became involuntary for us? Also when segragation was stopped how hard was integration? There are still those with problems and the stereo types with segragation there is no one to dispell those stereo types around so more people believe them. Many pagans also come from Christian backgrounds would they then need to shut out thier own families? It is just a bad idea in my opinion and would only cause more harm than good it would bring back the burning times and we would be in enclaves making it so much easier to identify us. How about employment? I am sure that bosses would see where someone lived and chose not to hire and they would have plenty of excuses available to use that you couldn't prove.

MistOfTheSea86
November 19th, 2001, 12:00 AM
In my thread in Theology and Philosophy, I spoke of making a temple when I get older. I think that this is a very interesting idea, but to a point. It would be cool to have a College type thing where EVERYONE was welcome to come and learn of paganism. But I do not think that a safe haven for JUST pagans would bode well...

Adrenaline Junkie
November 19th, 2001, 12:05 AM
I'm okay with everything as we speak. I know things have a lot of room for imporvment, in matters of prejudice but building a haven will not help the "greater good."

We can support each other through covens, letters, e-mails, phone calls, et cetera. We need not waste space for a building.

Just my thoughts...

Lavender
November 19th, 2001, 12:56 AM
A nice thought but us pagans are too diverse to agree on anything. That's what I like about us - diversity. And as Myst said, I have my friends & family that aren't pagan. Definitely a nice thought but will require a lot more thought.

Amethyst Rose
November 19th, 2001, 01:38 AM
I think that while it's a nice thought, separating ourselves from society, by creating our own society or by having us all be togethr, would not correct the problem -- it would intensify it. What we need to do is let the "normal" (as you put it) people know that we are "normal" too. We do this by being a part of society, but adding our own special spice to the stew. We are out there educating people simply through our presence. If we separate ourselves from that, then how will people ever learn to be tollerant of us?? I think they're more likely to be scared of the group of witches all living together, and all the educating we've already done, would be undone.....

Just my $0.02.....

Incendia
November 19th, 2001, 12:35 PM
I’ve met quite a few tolerant and open minded Christians and then again, I’ve met the other extreme. The other day, I had a theological discussion with someone who was Catholic about Paganism. Basically, to sum up a long story, she told me that that even though my beliefs sounded “palliative”;I should not refer to myself as “Pagan” because the term still presents with such a negative connotation in today’s society. We talked about various forms of Paganism such as Wicca for example. I mention this part, bc the extent of her knowledge on Wicca was derived from an episode of the t.v. show “Jag” during which the good guys had to rescue this woman from a coven. I don’t watch this show so I don’t know what kind of material was presented (it was probably greatly exaggerated), but it seemed to have freaked her out a bit. Anyway, it’s a long battle that we are going to have fight before we get rid of a lot of negative stereotypes. This person seemed pretty okay with the whole idea of my “religion”, but we’ll wait and see if this friendship will last if ya’ know what I mean. Not, to sound dejected, but sometimes I wonder why I even open my mouth.


-Amicus

Yvonne Belisle
November 19th, 2001, 01:28 PM
You know I am what is often for lack of a better term refered to as a natural witch meaning I am not book taught or teacher taught I go by what is in my heart. When I first came here I was afraid of being rejected for that. You see there are just as many pagans that think if you aren't part of thier order or tradition you aren't really pagan. These fundies are just as damaging as the christian fundies and to me just as repulsive. If you had segragated communities who whould decide who is a real pagan and who is not? I have done things that I have met high priests and priestesses that can't do them yet they have told me I am not pagan. So as for the christian threat I don't see it what I do see is a threat from within. Pagan and even Wiccan are umbrella terms for so much more. We are a diverse people and though I admire and find the beliefs of several of my friends interesting I also know that thier path is not for me. I have seen too much hatred and intollerance in our own ranks for me to point a finger and say there is the threat because if I were to do so it wouldn't be at the christians it would be at our own fundies.

Old Witch
November 19th, 2001, 02:34 PM
The JAG episode wasn't that bad, just had a bad priest-coven leader. They didn't present wicca in a bad way.

Xois
November 19th, 2001, 11:50 PM
For it isn't ALL christians who don't like pagans

Unfortunatally its the "christians" with all the money and network outlets that are the greatest threats and Yes, they hate pagans (I am specifically thinking about the 700 Club, and those of that ilk--do not forget they have the ear of many a congress person)

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 12:07 AM
I agree, that the 700 club, and other more hardline fundamentalist christians do hold a certain amount of power with political figures. However, it is not ALL christians, none the less, who hate pagans. And..it isn't ONLY christians, who do not like Paganism. There are fundamentalist radicals in other religions, who believe that their religion is the "Only" religion. As evidenced by the Al Quada network. There are also ignorant people who do not have any ties to any specific religion, who will commit acts of hatred, and violence of people of our faith, simply because we are "Differen't".

Yvonne Belisle
November 20th, 2001, 12:12 AM
Thank you Danustouch I think you are right in this. The biggest threats though are from all types of fundies christian moslem jew pagan wiccan it doesn't matter what kind what matters is that they spew hatred in thier wake leaving distrust and susspission behind.

MistOfTheSea86
November 20th, 2001, 01:56 AM
It seems there will forever be a half and half ratio...

Myst
November 20th, 2001, 02:09 AM
The point is regardless of whether some Christian group is popular or not, not all Christians are prejudiced and not all those who are prejudiced are Christian. Here at MW it is important to remember that all paths are to be respected, therefore we need to be careful about making claims about the "Christian threat" etc.

But I digress... time to get back on topic :)

flar7
November 20th, 2001, 02:53 AM
totally

Xois
November 20th, 2001, 11:29 AM
its sort of like that character from the princess bride...who was so consumed with revenge, he didn't know what to do after he got his revenge

Pagan1: Its a vast christian conspriacy against pagans
Pagan2: Its not all christians...
Christian: yeah, I don't hate Pagans...eveyone should be able to believe what they want...even if I think they are wrong...thats not the point
Pagan1: There is no christian conspriacy?! what the hell am I gonna do now?!
Pagan2: I don't know...
Pagan1: Its a vast Moslem conspriacy against pagans!

*grin*

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 11:37 AM
I like that Xois. lol.

Xander67
November 20th, 2001, 01:26 PM
:eek: Darius Asgaroth
just whos side are you on??? allow me to clarify ....

quote:

unite in designated areas and together live in peace without the threat of being misunderstood or suffering from the stereotypes that plague us.

/quote

that looks like SEPERATIST...

i mean, I thought the goal was to live together in peace respecting ALL paths, if we retreat into a compound like villa, then we will be the very freaks they say we are...

contrary to what you have been reading...there has been some progress in the pagan acceptance issue...it is a LEGAL recognised religion, IM SICK OF THE FIGHTING, AND we dont need "BATTLE RALLY CRY's" that only adds wood to the very fires that burned soooo many innocents in salem 300 years ago..........this isnt salem in the 17th century and actually there are LAWS that protect us now...........um sorry ...........i got carried away :)

Sequoia
November 20th, 2001, 01:45 PM
Xois - LMAO!!!!! that's so true LOL

in all honesty though, how and WHY would we want to do such a thing as trap ourselves inside a tiny, crowded community, without exposing ourselves to the views and ideas of others? How could we condemn our children to such a narrow-minded "sector" of the country? or world? Would you ask Jews, or Christians, or Muslums to all group together into little clumpie cities for just their religion? what kind of BS would that be?
Forgive me, but I REALLY don't see that as a viable solution to predjudice. In fact, it would cause more!

(guy) hey. . . you look unfamiliar.
(guy 2) yeah I'm on a business travel.
(guy) . . . where ya from?
(guy 2) Christiaville
(guy) O.O WHAT?! YOU'RE A CHRISTIAVILLIAN?!
(guy 2) SO!? I'M PUTTING UP WITH YOU IDIOT JEWVILLIANS!!
(lady with guy 2) HEY LEAVE HIM ALONE!!
(guy 2) KNOCK IT OFF, I ONLY TOLERATE YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE MY BUSINESS RIVAL, WICCAVILLIAN!!!

I know that's silly, but I mean. . . it could VERY VERY easily go from a religious thing to a city thing and on and on. . . people almost WANT a reason to keep the "them and us" mentality. . . this kind of idea would only allow it.

A weekend or vacation retreat is one thing, and I think that's wonderful!
But really. . . an entire city or something JUST for pagans? First of all, how would you define pagan? I know some Christian-witches. . . they're christian but they hold SOME pagan/wiccan/their own beliefs. Would they "qualify"? What exactly would qualify as a pagan? Would the doors be open or shut? Walled city or no? And what about other religions who wanted to visit? Would we be just as hateful and prejudiced as those whom we tried to escape?
You're asking for basically a supremist Paganism colony on the moon. I don't think it's a very good idea.

But hey, you're entitled to that idea. 'Cause for me, the entirety of paganism can be summed up in one word. Diversity.

Xander67
November 20th, 2001, 01:53 PM
and that is what makes us all unique is that there is DIVERISTY without it, there would be no CONTROVERSY and what kinda world would we have without CONTROVERSY??? there would be no motivation to LEARN the truth>>>>>>>>>>

see what you can start with just one word??? LOL

Pheonix
November 20th, 2001, 02:12 PM
I just want to point that we do have a few christians on this board who participate in many of our forums without being a "threat" and that maybe we should return the respect that they have given us.

Brightest Blessing,
Pheonix

lucidfire
November 20th, 2001, 02:29 PM
I'm not so sure it's a conspiracy thing; you people should lighten up, yeesh. It's called loyal opposition, and not such a bad thing with so many others who NEVER question anything that doesn't make their life so rosey and fluffy.. but I'm not bitter, I just like to get my point across.


ANYWAYS (slaps self on forehead),
I like the idea of a safe haven..I really do. I think it's the next natural step, and it's already begun to an extent. Difference is, our church is nature, and you can't capitalize or standardize that without losing something. It might not be a centralized organization, but there would definately be focalizers who bring things together, but I don't like the formation of heirarchy simply to ensure it stays there. I think it should be more autonamous, and should (as a symbol of who we are) welcome others in good faith, but have them recognize where they are, so that there's no bitterness or weird vibes.

It could be good, if it's done right. If you think it's a bad idea, I'm sorry if we're just some type of sideshow freaks or something, but I disagree with that. This isn't so new either.. it's older than you could possibly imagine

LilydePlume
November 20th, 2001, 02:36 PM
what makes you think all pagans are safe???........
Just a thought.........
BB
LP

Xander67
November 20th, 2001, 02:37 PM
and who is to say we arent!!!

what kinda crapola is that???

lucidfire
November 20th, 2001, 02:47 PM
I have to agree with what Jim once said, people want something sacred

Sequoia
November 20th, 2001, 02:49 PM
hey, I wouldn't mind a pagan "church" or something, although honestly I'm not much of a church-going personage hehe

A lot of ideas sound really good. And you have to try them out to see if they work or not.

-_-; heck, communism sounded like a good idea, and they tried it, and well. . . we know what happened then! LOL prolly would've worked better on a smaller scale.

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 02:51 PM
Not all Pagans are safe. But neither are all blacks, all jews, all homosexuals, all members of ANYTHING that can be interpreted as "differen't" or outside the majority.

So...why should we create a Wiccan Safehaven, commune type thing? It would completely alienate ourselves, even more, from the world in which we live.

As I said...I agree that a network, which could Aid pagans in trouble, would be helpful. As long as they ALSO aided anyone else who was having similar difficulties. Though..the ACLU seems to be doing that already..at least with legal help. A "Safe" house, for ANYONE facing predjudice, threaghts, etc, based on their faith, a temporary stop over, to help them out if they are in severe crisis, IMO ..would be a wonderful thing. As long as, as I've said, the same help were given to ANYONE facing horrible predjudice and threaghts because of their religious beliefs. We are NOT separate from this world. And, when it comes down to it, we are not that differen't from anyone else in this world. Our goal, IMO, as Pagans, should be to raise awareness and tolerance of our beliefs. You cannot do that, if you seclude yourself away in a safety net community. You must be part of society, in order to change it.

Xander67
November 20th, 2001, 02:51 PM
they do have pagan churches, some of them are pretty nice, but just like all other Organised religions, well ima shut up before i dig any deeper LOL

Myst
November 20th, 2001, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by LilydePlume
what makes you think all pagans are safe???........
Just a thought.........

Very, very true. And an important thing to think about. Being Pagan doesn't make anyone sane, safe, or a positive person.

There are Pagan churches, btw. The whole point though is that Pagans reach Gods in any way, at any time, without the need to convene in some building.

"People want something sacred"?? HeLLO!? One of the most important principles of Paganism is the belief that everyone and everything is sacred. We don't need a building, the ground and the sky and the rain are sacred!

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 02:54 PM
Do you guys mean to imply that ALL of human life, and natural creation is NOT sacred???? The whole earth, and everything upon it. Even the people we do not like...are sacred. They are all created in the same way, out of the miracle of birth and creation. They are all loved by their respected deities. ALL of life is sacred, everywhere we walk, is sacred ground. It is up to YOU to find the sacredness in all things, within yourself. Do not look to exterior creations. Buildings/churches/land....none of these things can be sacred, without YOU having an attitude of sacredness within you.

Xander67
November 20th, 2001, 02:54 PM
what makes anyone think they are safe for that matter, pagan, christian, moslem, jew, whatever...

and what makes anyone think they arent,

paranoia is over rated

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 02:58 PM
As for Pagan Churches, my friend is the President/Reverand/HighPriestess of a Pagan Church in CT. The Pagan Community Church. They are seeking a land grant, and would like to form a building. But..that is so that they can have a place to worship, where they won't be intruded on by passerbye's (like often happens at public parks, etc). Where they won't have to pay "Rent" (like they have to when they rent a hall)...where they can hold weekly, daily, monthly programs for people. It is not because they believe it any more sacred then somebody's living room, or back yard. It's because they are a growing organization, with growing needs, and growing participation. So logically, they would need more room to accomodate their members. And logically, it can be difficult to host outdoor functions year round, without running into problems such as handicapped individuals accessing the ritual area, or scheduling problems with other groups who want to use the same area on the same day, or the problem of rude people barging in on the ceremony, who just happen to be traipsing through that area that day. It's not the building that makes this group sacred...it's the people within it.

Sequoia
November 20th, 2001, 03:01 PM
ne, myst, danu. . . . just a gentle reminder, not ALL pagans think that everything is sacred. That's your viewpoint. Some people need special symbolism such as alters, churches, rites, spells, etc to find sacredness and divine influence. It's not a bad thing, in my opinion. Diversity, ne?

-_-; who says anyone ISN'T dangerous? Has anyone ever had a wonderful, sweet, adorable lap cat who JUST had kittens and the family then found out just how fierce a mother can be? I wouldn't hurt a fly. . . . unless I was threatened. In my opinion, EVERYONE and EVERYTHING is dangerous in some manner.

But to say they are dangerous in such as way as to pose a constant horrible threat. . . well. . . I don't quite follow that idea hehe

Myst
November 20th, 2001, 03:08 PM
Silly me, I thought an integral part of most Pagan religions was that we are all interconnected and we're all part of the God and Goddess, therefore we are all sacred and divine, as is Her Earth which is Her Body, which further indicates how nature is divine and sacred and how as Pagans we often seek to help Her. I'm surprised there are Pagans who don't believe that.

And, incidentally, the point was not that Pagans are "so dangerous", but that being Pagan doesn't mean you aren't dangerous. Some would seem to indicate here that having a building and organization dedicated to Paganism would provide a "safe haven" - well, being as Pagan doesn't immediately indicate you are "safe", to assume that an all Pagan community must be safe is fallacy.

Sequoia
November 20th, 2001, 03:13 PM
-_-; myst. . . . "pagan" is a term for a COLLECTIVE of religions, or an eclectic religion. . . not a SPECIFIC religion with rules, set terms of worship, etc. I may be wrong, but Druids are pagan, yet.. . tehy don't worship god and goddess, do they? I'm pagan, but I don't worship a god and goddess.

You're overgeneralizing, and it may be considered rude by some people.

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 03:14 PM
agreed myst. But...There is a certain amount of safety in numbers. Thus..thinking that to have .."safe houses" for people who must flee their homes/towns, etc, due to any sort of religious persecution, for a temporary time, until things cool off, or they find another home, is not a bad idea, imo. However, creating an entirely seperate, long term, established community..is a VERY bad idea, imo..because of the ramifications of being a "Seperatist" movement.

One need's only to look at the Montana Freeman, and the legal issues they are facing, to realize that.

Not to mention, the whole idea that to create change, one must work inside the society they are wishing to change. Not separate themselves from it.

lucidfire
November 20th, 2001, 03:17 PM
Illusion will get us nowhere.

Things aren't perfect, and never will be. To have somewhere you can just go, and not follow a schedule, and not pay money, but go there and pray or meditate or learn or whatever. I only fear that people are so trapped, it doesn't matter where they go, they never escape in their head.

Think of this: by definition, everything cannot be sacred; it loses meaning. Perhaps you mean special or divine, but sacred implies its set apart in some way.

Maybe I'm just a weirdo though, I get my ideas from experience rather than books or tv

some people sure hate fighting with me though. There are much better ways to figure out what it is I'm trying to say, instead of assuming I'm just another example of these people elsewhere you disagree with

but yeah, I'm a freak. That's why I'm here

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 03:18 PM
Puma....Myst was NOT overgeneralizing. I'm not really all that knowledgeable about Druidic practices and beliefs. However, what I DO Remember, is that even if they do not believe in a said god and goddess..they do recognize a general deity, or life essence, sacredness...in all things.

Even practitioners of differen't magickal paths..more ceremonial in nature, tend to recognize the fact that there is sacredness, or life force, or deity, in all things.

Even in Satanism, for instance. There are some who believe that Humans..are gods. Thus, reinforcing the thought that all things are connected, and sacred.

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 03:23 PM
Noone is saying that having a temple...or a church...or a campground, what have you, that is mainly pagan oriented, is a bad thing. Necessarily. We are saying that it is not entirely necessary..as much of a wonderful luxury that it might be. What we are saying is BAD..is a permanent pagan community....seperate from society as a whole.

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 03:26 PM
If you want to talk about Illusion, Lucidfire...Here's something for you to think about. SEPERATENESS..is an illusion. There are facial and body features, which make each individual, look differen't.than the next. But we do know, that when it comes down to it, we are all made of the same stuff..with few variances.

And..we all must be "Born"...blah blah blah...the list goes on and on. The illusion of seperateness..is dangerous. Because then we fail to see our connection to all others, which creates a LARGER breeding ground for hatred, intolerance, and predjudice.

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 03:29 PM
And incidentally...the tone of certain individuals in this thread is becoming VERY derogatory. Debating points, and issues, is one thing. Its' perfectly acceptable. However, saying demeaning things, even if you are trying to "shroud" them, to make it seem like you are not addressing a specific individual...is not. Please play nice.

Myst
November 20th, 2001, 03:30 PM
lucidfire;

Paragraph 1 : No payment huh? How do you plan to finance this one, and the staff of it?

Parangraph 2 : There are several definitions of sacredness, including the one you mentioned

sa·cred (skrd)
adj.
Dedicated to or set apart for the worship of a deity.
Worthy of religious veneration: the sacred teachings of the Buddha.
Made or declared holy: sacred bread and wine.
Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single use, purpose, or person: sacred to the memory of her sister; a private office sacred to the President.
Worthy of respect; venerable.
Of or relating to religious objects, rites, or practices. (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition, 2000)

So sacred in my mind can indicate somewhere set for the worship of deity, somewhere worthy of religions veneration (even teachings), something holy or dedicate or respectable, or that pertains to religions objects, rights or practices. So yes, to me, the entire Earth is sacred.

Paragraph 3 : I'm sure *most* Pagans who come to MW practice Paganism and don't just "watch it on TV"

Paragraph 4 : We don't "fight" here at MW, we share opinions and discuss, so I don't really know what you mean by that. Perhaps you'd like to clarify? If someone is "fighting" with you, maybe you should let a mod or admin know?

Myst
November 20th, 2001, 03:33 PM
Danustouch : yes, by God & Goddess, I mean divinity, deity, life, energy, etc., and that connection and immersion in them makes all living things united yet unique, essentially interconnected and divine. And as I indicated, in *my* travels, I've never met a Pagan who didn't have some sort of belief in interconnectedness, personal divinity, or respect for nature.

Sequoia
November 20th, 2001, 03:38 PM
ano. . . . *sigh* what I was saying was that not ALL human beings who regard themselves as pagan belive in the idea of God and Goddess, even though others may inturpret it as such. I dont'. I'm pagan. I know others who don't. They're pagan.

that IS over-generalizing.


Silly me, I thought an integral part of most Pagan religions was that we are all interconnected and we're all part of the God and Goddess



Puma....Myst was NOT overgeneralizing. I'm not really all that knowledgeable about Druidic practices and beliefs. However, what I DO Remember, is that even if they do not believe in a said god and goddess..they do recognize a general deity, or life essence, sacredness...in all things.

Even practitioners of differen't magickal paths..more ceremonial in nature, tend to recognize the fact that there is sacredness, or life force, or deity, in all things.


the thing is,

a) I'm not denying that some groups belive in sacredness, or even that most belive in sacredness. What I'm saying is that not ALL groups belive that everything in the universe is sacred. You cannot ever know ALL of ANYTHING, so how can you make such a statement?
b) While I cannot speak for others definitavely, I CAN say that at least for me, no, a god and goddess are NOT the centre of my religious experience. I personally do not pay homage to any one thing, bowdown and worship, have an alter ONLY to THIS or THAT. . . I do not worship God and Goddess.
And personally, I find it offending that people in this thread have repeatedly tried to tell me that all pagans or nearly all pagans do such. When it's just not true.

lucidfire
November 20th, 2001, 03:43 PM
myst: Maybe the way they do regular churches and religions? I'd work for free, myself.

as to the illusion thing, I think you're right. I think the problem here is just semantics.

I don't consider going to work or the grocery store holy. I would consider it sacred if I picked my own berries, grew my own food, breed my own animals! If I built my own house with my bare hands, and used things from NATURE, not some chemical compound generated from gasoline and synthesized molecules nobody knows what are made of. We're not all sheeps you know, but we're also not all wolves. Something to do with concrete roads, power lines, poop floating in pipes beneath the streets, makes it feel less sacred. Is that wrong?

As to sovereignty, is your money the only thing that defines you, or your country? I always thought it had to do with cultures and lifestyles, freedom and love; but if you believe the money thing is at the top, go sit with the terrorists or something, because I loath thee. I'm not always going to be all smiles if you sit there and pick at me with your sword you know.

Myst
November 20th, 2001, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by lucidfire
As to sovereignty, is your money the only thing that defines you, or your country? I always thought it had to do with cultures and lifestyles, freedom and love; but if you believe the money thing is at the top, go sit with the terrorists or something, because I loath thee. I'm not always going to be all smiles if you sit there and pick at me with your sword you know.

Well if you can fund the creation and running of a haven for thousands (or millions) of Pagans without using any money, feel free to show me because I'd like to know how. I don't recall saying money is the most important issue, or the only issue.

Puma;

All I'm doing here is sharing my opinions and what I've seen in life. My opinions are based on my experiences, and I've made it clear that every post I make here is a result of my opinions and beliefs and NEVER fact or the beliefs of anyone else. I'm sorry you assumed that was forcing my beliefs on you, or disrespecting you.

Anyways I look forward to seeing more opinions, thoughts, and ideas about this.

Illuminatus
November 20th, 2001, 04:18 PM
A big Pagan Retreat/State?

It's an unweildy, difficult solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Anyway, we discordians don't have much of a problem, because we look just like ordinary people.

Myst
November 20th, 2001, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus
It's an unweildy, difficult solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Anyway, we discordians don't have much of a problem, because we look just like ordinary people.

See sometimes you just answer the question far more succinctly then I can. ;)

lucidfire
November 20th, 2001, 04:33 PM
that's cool

not sure why you're in this post though, other than to say "no!" I guess that's what you'd call a thread killer. Leaving..

Myst
November 20th, 2001, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by lucidfire
that's cool

not sure why you're in this post though, other than to say "no!"

Isn't explaining why I say "no" a good enough reason? :)

Guess we're here to discuss things, no?

Sorry you think someone disagreeing is a reason to stop sharing.

Illuminatus
November 20th, 2001, 04:40 PM
Awww, poor baby. I didn't give him the answer he wanted, so now he's upset.

I chose the poll option #4: No. I am happy the way things are right now.

But, if you look at the name of the thread, "It is time to unite" you can see that this thread is inherently biased to the answer "Yes, lets make our own pagan state where we can all go and just kick it without worrying about other people ruining our fun." Well, sorry, but I don't agree with you.

Also, you are mistaken in calling me a thread-killer. hah, if I wanted to kill this thread, I have much better and more creative means at my disposal.

- Illuminatus!

(this is my 1000th post)

Yvonne Belisle
November 20th, 2001, 04:42 PM
You know what I think. I think this thread shows why it can't work. No one agrees on much of anything here on this topic. We are all this or all that who cares! We are all human that is the one thing we all have in common and anyone who feels they aren't human I am sorry. It is the petty picking apart of ideas to the degree where we begin to sound demeaning that has made me and several others retreat from many parts of this board and this thread is beging to be a good example of that. If you are going to express your ideas with a tone that sounds like a mother talking down to a child I want no part of it. If we can't even be fully civil in our deals here there is zero chance of some comune or haven or seperate town city whetever working. Good day people I leave this thread discusted by several members.

Yvonne Belisle
November 20th, 2001, 04:43 PM
Illuminatus you have made some wonderful points.

Myst
November 20th, 2001, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
If we can't even be fully civil in our deals here there is zero chance of some comune or haven or seperate town city whetever working.

Wow, Von, you really hit the nail right on the head. Kudos!

Danustouch
November 20th, 2001, 05:13 PM
Just a small aside...

Puma..where did you see us saying that all pagans believed in a God or Goddess???

I surely never said that. I said that MOST pagans believe in some sort of devine force, or sacred energy...things to that effect. There are Pagans who worship the elements themselves. There are Pagans that worship themselves, as manifestations of devinity. There are pagans who worship energy which they cannot put a name to, or describe. I don't recall anyone saying that to be a Pagan, you had to worship a god and/or Goddess. Did I miss something?

Xois
November 20th, 2001, 05:22 PM
. "pagan" is a term for a COLLECTIVE of religions, or an eclectic religion. . . not a SPECIFIC religion with rules

Um, no, this is incorrect...I am Pagan...captial P...I worship elements and nature...I am not wiccan (ick hehehe) I am not a Witch

I am Pagan...no dieties...but Pagan is my religion...not my umbrella term

Thanks! :D

Xois

ps. i was kidding about the icky wiccan thing!

Xois
November 20th, 2001, 05:24 PM
hey Ill

I look just like everyone else too...no bumper stickers on my car, no pentagram around my neck...

:)

Just a regular ol' business professional...

;)

we will take over the world, you know!

Illuminatus
November 20th, 2001, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Xois

;)

we will take over the world, you know!

We?

I didn't know you were in on the Conspiracy!!! That's great! Are you NWO, LDD, Syndicate or True Illuminati? (those are the only branches I know about yet, I'm sure there are more)

- Ill

MistOfTheSea86
November 20th, 2001, 07:58 PM
you are all right, though I wish it were possible to have one... Our beliefs are just not that simple... Nor or any. Even if they made a christian safe haven. There would be hours upon hours of fights between protestant, catholic, christian, lutheran, presyperterian. It is all TOO vast for something like this to work.

mol
November 21st, 2001, 10:47 AM
Congrats to Ill on his 1000th post. You made it without getting banned one time. Amazing. :p

And now to the question at hand and the recent events in this thread.

The question. I chose not to vote. Asking me to unite behind a label is like asking a vegetarian to try your new veal recipe. And, in my opinion, this will never happen anyway. We are a label-giving and a label-adopting society. While these labels are held in check...there will never be any unity.

True unity is the acceptance of individuality.

SITE GOD MODE

Now to whats been going on this thread. Stop hurling insults at each other. I dont care if you do it right at someone or try to hide it. Dont do it. Its bad enough I cant drive on the freeway without someone flipping me off...I odnt want to come in here and be dropped into a cess pool as well.

Thats all...and thats all. Thanks for listening

Xander67
November 24th, 2001, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus


We?

I didn't know you were in on the Conspiracy!!! That's great! Are you NWO, LDD, Syndicate or True Illuminati? (those are the only branches I know about yet, I'm sure there are more)

- Ill


;) wait till they find out that the Triangle with the eye which the illuminatii is supposedly at the top, is just one small piece of a much larger picture spanning many different dimensions,, that outta put a bang in the ole big bang conspiracy theory......

LOL:cool:

Psyche Ague
November 25th, 2001, 01:13 PM
It's not that I completely don't like the idea, but I don't like the idea of separating ourselves from everyone else. Most of my friends are not pagan. I just don't deal well with this sort of thing. It's a lovely, romantic idea, but do it without me, I'm afraid.

Darius Asgaroth
November 25th, 2001, 10:23 PM
I see now that my dream of unity will never come true. It looks to me like the idea of unity among pagans is actually creating fights. People need to become more civil or their will never be peace. This post is actually here to help decide how I shall go about making colonies whether to be forceful or go by peace. I have followers and I plan on creating a colony and I am expecting that christians will fight me. I just wanted to know who's with me.

Darius Asgaroth
November 25th, 2001, 10:26 PM
I don't want to seperate us from everyone else what I want is for us to be recognised as normal by everyone so we aren't hit by all those stereotypes.

Darius Asgaroth
November 25th, 2001, 10:30 PM
Most of my friends are not pagan. In fact I am freinds with some christians even though I don't like christianity.

Xander67
November 25th, 2001, 10:40 PM
I agree with you 100% darius,

I think what has happenend in this thread was,

some ppl saw your idea in a different perspective,
some saw it as seperatist, and others saw it as cowardly,

I am for living in peace, a peacefull co-habitation

I prefer to live without a label,
unfortunately, some ppl give others a label, while others give them selves one.....

forget the labels LOL lets just all live together and respect each other and accept us for who we al are................



ok im back from my trip to dreamland now LOL

Illuminatus
November 28th, 2001, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Darius Asgaroth
I see now that my dream of unity will never come true. It looks to me like the idea of unity among pagans is actually creating fights. People need to become more civil or their will never be peace. This post is actually here to help decide how I shall go about making colonies whether to be forceful or go by peace. I have followers and I plan on creating a colony and I am expecting that christians will fight me. I just wanted to know who's with me.

A great Jedi once said:

"Who is more foolish: the fool, or the fool that follows him?"

Theres
July 14th, 2002, 10:57 PM
from 'The Prisoner'...
"I will NOT be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed or numbered!"

or, to quote Thomas paine...
"My mind is my own church."

mol's point about individuality is well taken. individuality is THE MOST sacred thing any human has, and i'll not give it up lightly. this is MY world and MY life and i'll live it as i want, or die trying. but then i've never been much of a joiner.

Silver_Alhena
July 15th, 2002, 05:52 PM
Who needs a seperate physical colony to have a pagan community, after all, isn't that exactly what this is?

Pagans uniting in communication, yes. However I share some of the same concerns about isolation.

When I was growing up, and knew I was 'different' to my Catholic family and friends, I didn't have anyone to share that with...
Theoretically this could be a problem for pagan kids in a closed community.

Ravens_Tears
July 15th, 2002, 08:38 PM
I concur....


Originally posted by Old Witch
:) As an old Trekkie(not to be confused with young trekkers) I believe in IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations, the only way the future will work.( My humble opinion).

And I also say that segregation is a bad thing unless it comes to those who commit crime, that is why it is used as a punishment. I am not sure what a proper solution would be. That would require a little more thought on my part than I have had opportunity to give the subject for the moment. It does occur to me, and maybe the women will understand this more so than the men (I don't mean that in a facetious or bashing way), that even though some of us are priviledged to live within a democracy ( being Canadian my freedom is very precious), doesn't mean that the ideals of the system are always realized in reality. Yes I should be able to walk freely day or night in any garb I choose, in any neighborhood I choose and idealy be safe, but the reality is that, as a woman, this is just not possible, for my own safety. Just as, even though here in Canada particularly, my right to voice my opinions and practice my spirituality without fear of punitive actions or prejudice is guarenteed under the human rights code, this same code cannot not physically protect me from others actions. When I am open about who I am, what I believe and what I practice, I fully realize that I may be making myself a target. Education in the ways of effective communication skills and the basic tenets of peaceful co-existance are the most effective tools we have against fear, violence and prejudice. Not havens, not segregation or congregating "enmasse" as a force to be reckend with. All those behaviours will do is create fear of who we are and our practices. I believe it would be a giant fall back as opposed to a leap forward. Any other thoughts along these lines or are these solely my own??? Exscuse the spelling etc.. as I am running on little sleep at the moment....

Ravens_Tears
July 15th, 2002, 08:44 PM
By the way, I chose not to vote as these options, in my opinion, are limited and inadequate to my way of thinking.. no offense darius

ChelleOfShadows
July 15th, 2002, 10:18 PM
I have read the past 6 and a half pages and with each page my heart has grown heavier. I have always looked to this place AS A HAVEN and to come and see such chaos amongst us is very disheartening. I'm a witch, a mother, an employee, a tax payer, an american, an avid and hopefully welcome member of MW. I have always believed judge not lest ye be judged, and while I may have different views I do know that many things from the Christian Bible, The Jewish Torah and yes even the Koran can be put to use in even a Pagan - Wiccan lifestyle. It is not my place to say anything about anyone. But in addition to all of this, I am NOT an idiot.

Darius I am sorry you are not able to freely practice your chosen path-craft-religion in your current circumstances. It is a free country, MOVE!!

Need I remind everyone about the last person who felt there was a superior race and how many deaths that led too. Are we to be no better that Nazi's, the KKK, so prejudice that we must segregate ourselves in order to what, have freedom of religion? WE HAVE THAT!!! No I don't go door to door and try to solicit for a coven, I am a solitary witch. I don't advertise not because I am afraid or ashamed, but because I hold my magick and beliefs close to my heart, they are MY STRENGTH, NOT my weakness.

All of this is causing discord among us. While I believe that a good heated debate is wonderful, this snide, spiteful bickering sucks. I have not been here long. I have probably made people mad. I'm sorry. This is just going to far.

I DID NOT VOTE, I AM NOT A RACIST!!!

Just my 2 cents from the peanut gallery!!!