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Zibblsnrt
August 30th, 2005, 01:33 PM
http://www.wwltv.com/ (http://www.wwltv.com/)

Caught the reference there, but not a stable link about it yet; it apparently happened sometime this morning.

I figured a declaration of martial law counts as sufficiently political to post here.

My neck of the woods got placed under it a couple years ago for a few days, when we took Juan upside the chin without much warning, but that wasn't anywhere near so catastrophic as this, of course. Ow.

Trithemius
August 30th, 2005, 01:48 PM
Here's another link (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/wdsu/20050830/lo_wdsu/2908361).


10:30 a.m.: Martial Law Declared
New Orleans is under martial law, according to state officials. The declaration is imposed to restore order in times of war and emergency. It could be weeks before displaced residents are allowed to return. -- WDSU chief meteorologist Dan Milham

On another forum, just a while ago someone posted that at 1:35 EDT, FOX News was reporting that New Orleans was not under martial law, so I don't know if they've rescinded it, or what's going on.

Zibblsnrt
August 30th, 2005, 02:05 PM
On another forum, just a while ago someone posted that at 1:35 EDT, FOX News was reporting that New Orleans was not under martial law, so I don't know if they've rescinded it, or what's going on.

Yeah, I imagine there'll be all sorts of confusion over this sort of thing. For now I'll take the word of the sources more local to them though, since it's pretty clear they do have the Guard blocking return routes and stuff like that. If it isn't, it might as well be.

Shanti
August 30th, 2005, 03:59 PM
Concerning that 80% of the city is underwater and thousands of people are trapped on roof tops, I dont think it matters much. The few areas people can walk through water to cause probs, like looters, wont be able to do that much longer due to the rising water.
So whether or not they declare anything seems pretty pointless in my opinion.

Dark Phoenix
August 30th, 2005, 07:25 PM
All I can say is what a mess, I would not want to be there right now.

pawnman
August 30th, 2005, 11:31 PM
Does this mean they'll start shooting looters? I hope so. I have no sympathy for people who use this kind of tragedy as an excuse to line their own pockets at the expense of others.

Darkdale
August 31st, 2005, 12:07 AM
Does this mean they'll start shooting looters? I hope so. I have no sympathy for people who use this kind of tragedy as an excuse to line their own pockets at the expense of others.

I think shooting looters would just make the situation all that much worse. Too many people have died already. I wish these people the best of luck, this is by far one of the worst disasters of my lifetime. I've just never even thought that a storm could do that. I just hope we rescue as many of the people that stayed behind as possible and then after we bring them to saftey, ask them what the friggen hell they were thinking!

pawnman
August 31st, 2005, 12:09 AM
I think shooting looters would just make the situation all that much worse. Too many people have died already. I wish these people the best of luck, this is by far one of the worst disasters of my lifetime. I've just never even thought that a storm could do that. I just hope we rescue as many of the people that stayed behind as possible and then after we bring them to saftey, ask them what the friggen hell they were thinking!

And then tell them "Hell, we don't care what you were thinking. Meet bubba, your new husba...I mean, cellmate".

Darkdale
August 31st, 2005, 12:14 AM
And then tell them "Hell, we don't care what you were thinking. Meet bubba, your new husba...I mean, cellmate".

I just feel awful for everyone. Events like this bring out my unusual compassionate side. Do these looters deserve to have the crap kicked out of them? Of course, but they just went through hell and I think that was punishment enough. I'm sure lots of people couldn't afford to get out of the city, of course, I would have ridden a donkey to saftey as soon as Katrina became a level five.

pawnman
August 31st, 2005, 12:18 AM
I just feel awful for everyone. Events like this bring out my unusual compassionate side. Do these looters deserve to have the crap kicked out of them? Of course, but they just went through hell and I think that was punishment enough. I'm sure lots of people couldn't afford to get out of the city, of course, I would have ridden a donkey to saftey as soon as Katrina became a level five.

I stopped feelling sorry for them when they decided to use the suffering of others to run interference for their own illegal gains.

DragonsChest
August 31st, 2005, 12:24 AM
I don't care if martial law has been declared or not - looting is stealing, and stealing is wrong.

DragonsChest
August 31st, 2005, 12:44 AM
Just heard on Nightline that a looter shot a policeman, and his condition is unknown at this time. If this is true, it's really time to shoot the looters first, and stop the problem.

DragonsChest
August 31st, 2005, 08:58 AM
Okay, I'm going to alter my view point just a tad. (YES!! I am known to rethink an issue and be able to come to a different conclusion!)

Looting: under 98% of situations, bad, wrong.

But.... I saw on the news today, GMA, that a man in NO was saying they need food and water while they are trying to get out.

So, here's my adjustment: police see you walking out of a store with TVs, jewelry, DVD players, appliances..... non-survival items: they shoot.

Police see you walking out of a store with a case of Dasani, and a case of pork n beans and a can opener, chances are you are just trying to to stay alive: they don't shoot.

Yes, in essence it's still stealing, but at that point, to keep my family alive, I'd take life sustaining items to accomplish that. And a Rolex and a 32" flat screen do not qualify.

mucgwyrt
August 31st, 2005, 09:12 AM
Okay, I'm going to alter my view point just a tad. (YES!! I am known to rethink an issue and be able to come to a different conclusion!)

Looting: under 98% of situations, bad, wrong.

But.... I saw on the news today, GMA, that a man in NO was saying they need food and water while they are trying to get out.

So, here's my adjustment: police see you walking out of a store with TVs, jewelry, DVD players, appliances..... non-survival items: they shoot.

Police see you walking out of a store with a case of Dasani, and a case of pork n beans and a can opener, chances are you are just trying to to stay alive: they don't shoot.

Yes, in essence it's still stealing, but at that point, to keep my family alive, I'd take life sustaining items to accomplish that. And a Rolex and a 32" flat screen do not qualify.
But where would, oh, a case of champers come into that?
Or $100 box of choccies?
Or $100 silver forks?
:nyah:

DragonsChest
August 31st, 2005, 09:23 AM
But where would, oh, a case of champers come into that?
Or $100 box of choccies?
Or $100 silver forks?
:nyah:

Since I don't much like champers, it wouldn't be an issue with me. :bigblue: But a case of Capt. Morgan - I consider that an essential.

Chocolate is always a necessity, and fingers were invented before forks. :sunny:

Darkdale
August 31st, 2005, 09:29 AM
Just heard on Nightline that a looter shot a policeman, and his condition is unknown at this time. If this is true, it's really time to shoot the looters first, and stop the problem.

I'd like to change my position. If they are shooting cops, it's time for the cops to shoot first. However, does anyone know who is in charge? Is it the police, MPs or the National Guard?

Zoritsa_Nepenthe
August 31st, 2005, 09:39 AM
From some clips I saw....no one is beyond looting.There were security guards taking just as many things as everyone else in a Walmart :goodgrief

DragonsChest
August 31st, 2005, 09:40 AM
And that's wrong, too.

Zibblsnrt
August 31st, 2005, 09:44 AM
But a case of Capt. Morgan - I consider that an essential.

Actually, looking for at least some alcoholic drinks (specifically beer) is probably a good idea for the locals. The water's anything but safe now, and most other drinks wouldn't last long in this heat/humidity.

There's a reason that beer was one of the main drinks for most human civilizations over time. "Drinking water" only became a really common thing in the twentieth century in a lot of places.


I'd like to change my position. If they are shooting cops, it's time for the cops to shoot first. However, does anyone know who is in charge? Is it the police, MPs or the National Guard?

My understanding is that the National Guard (and, in places, the Navy) is officially in charge, but they're deferring to the higher-level civilian state government unless the two's plans are wildly diverging. There's been a whole lot of communications troubles though, because the communications in the hardest-hit areas have been completely destroyed.

It'll probably be a few more days before some sort of smoothly-operating authority is restored. In the meantime, the man on the spot's the man on the spot.

Zibblsnrt
August 31st, 2005, 09:47 AM
From some clips I saw....no one is beyond looting.There were security guards taking just as many things as everyone else in a Walmart :goodgrief

At least some of the instances of those are police commandeering things for the relief efforts; their taking supplies by fiat is legal, both under martial law as well as the other directives they got the night before the storm hit, which allow them to commandeer anything that could be useful.

If they're going for DVD players or jewelry, of course, that's a different matter.

pawnman
August 31st, 2005, 09:48 AM
At least some of the instances of those are police commandeering things for the relief efforts; their taking supplies by fiat is legal, both under martial law as well as the other directives they got the night before the storm hit, which allow them to commandeer anything that could be useful.

If they're going for DVD players or jewelry, of course, that's a different matter.

How about breaking open jewelry and electronics cases so looters don't hurt themselves?

DragonsChest
August 31st, 2005, 09:50 AM
At least some of the instances of those are police commandeering things for the relief efforts; their taking supplies by fiat is legal, both under martial law as well as the other directives they got the night before the storm hit, which allow them to commandeer anything that could be useful.

If they're going for DVD players or jewelry, of course, that's a different matter.


Ah, that's an interesting point. Hadn't thought of that - thanks for the clue.

Zibblsnrt
August 31st, 2005, 09:54 AM
How about breaking open jewelry and electronics cases so looters don't hurt themselves?

Well, hell, that's both protecting and serving!

StellaLuna
August 31st, 2005, 10:09 AM
In that situation I would do anything I needed to for mine and my families survivial.
If my daughter needed food or water, I would risk my own life.

pawnman
August 31st, 2005, 10:37 AM
In that situation I would do anything I needed to for mine and my families survivial.
If my daughter needed food or water, I would risk my own life.

I understand. But would you regard such behavior as:


One man, who had about 10 pairs of jeans draped over his left arm, was asked if he was salvaging things from his store.

"No," the man shouted, "that's EVERYBODY'S store."


Or:


Inside the store, the scene alternated between celebration and frightening bedlam. A shirtless man straddled a broken jewelry case, yelling, “Free samples, free samples over here.”

Or:


Another man rolled a mechanized pallet, stacked six feet high with cases of vodka and whiskey. Perched atop the stack was a bewildered toddler.

as necessary for survival?

StellaLuna
August 31st, 2005, 11:23 AM
I understand. But would you regard such behavior as:



Or:



Or:



as necessary for survival?



No, I agree not necessary for survival.
Human nature is what it is, unfortunately, in any situation.

I'm not advocating stealing, I'm just saying if I had access to a grocery store, or clothing store, because I needed vital supplies in order to survive, I wouldn't think twice-especially when it comes to the welfare of my child.
Not counting these looters you alluded to above, I think in these types of situations, one reverts to primal instincts, and you can't judge unless you are there.

pawnman
August 31st, 2005, 07:53 PM
Does anyone know if they truly have declared martial law in Louisiana? Because if they have, the National Guard will start shooting looters...that's one of the provisions of martial law.

Darkdale
August 31st, 2005, 07:57 PM
Does anyone know if they truly have declared martial law in Louisiana? Because if they have, the National Guard will start shooting looters...that's one of the provisions of martial law.

They are going to have to. There have already been cases of people shooting at FEMA members, who are now required to have police or national guard security, which is slowing down the relief process.

Trithemius
August 31st, 2005, 08:05 PM
Does anyone know if they truly have declared martial law in Louisiana? Because if they have, the National Guard will start shooting looters...that's one of the provisions of martial law.

According to this article, dated today, martial law was declared, and as it makes no mention of it having been rescinded, I would assume it to still be in effect.

Inundated Big Easy under martial law (http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=9fef7da8-13e2-412c-b484-090b8082fa1c)

Edit: This article also:

Martial law declared around New Orleans (http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050830-13071200-bc-us-katrina-la-2ndld.xml)

AmericanMe
August 31st, 2005, 08:42 PM
MArtial law is declared, but the National Guard is too busy rescuing people trapped on roofs and in attics to bother with the looters.

One of the Govenors has requested federal troops, meaning active duty troops. There is already several special forces boat teams on the way, and a guy that I used to work with that is now stationed elsewhere left today to go recover bodies.

IMO they will likely call out elements of the 82nd or the 101st (most likely the latter, but both divisions have units deployment ready 24-7-365), marines, plus support elements (medics, engineers, water purification, etc).

Anyways, Michelle Malkin has a good overview of what's happening and who's doing something (and who's not): http://michellemalkin.com/ (http://michellemalkin.com/)

Zibblsnrt
August 31st, 2005, 09:39 PM
Some more: (http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html)


Disgusted and furious with the lawlessness of looters who have put fear into citizens, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared Martial Law in the city and directed the city's 1,500 person police force to do "whatever it takes" to regain control of the city.

Guess someone's decided to Be In Charge after all.

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 12:42 AM
MArtial law is declared, but the National Guard is too busy rescuing people trapped on roofs and in attics to bother with the looters.

One of the Govenors has requested federal troops, meaning active duty troops. There is already several special forces boat teams on the way, and a guy that I used to work with that is now stationed elsewhere left today to go recover bodies.

IMO they will likely call out elements of the 82nd or the 101st (most likely the latter, but both divisions have units deployment ready 24-7-365), marines, plus support elements (medics, engineers, water purification, etc).

Anyways, Michelle Malkin has a good overview of what's happening and who's doing something (and who's not): http://michellemalkin.com/ (http://michellemalkin.com/)

I'm willing to volunteer my services to the commander of the 101st or the 82nd for a while. I'm just in Pensacola...if NASC will let me go to New Orleans for the weekend, I'd be happy to put a few looters in their place.