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View Full Version : Now that the storm's gone...on with the looting



pawnman
August 30th, 2005, 02:28 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9131493/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9131493/)

Almost makes you not want to help these people.

Kaylara
August 30th, 2005, 02:32 PM
You think that if I had a family to feed that I would feel bad about stealing food for them? You're nuts.

I don't agree with stealing jewelery and stuff like that, but if it comes to medicine and food, I can see why they would do it and I can't fault them either.

Darakash
August 30th, 2005, 02:37 PM
You think that if I had a family to feed that I would feel bad about stealing food for them? You're nuts.

I don't agree with stealing jewelery and stuff like that, but if it comes to medicine and food, I can see why they would do it and I can't fault them either.

yeah, it would be one thing if it were food, and if food could not be found elsewhere....but "Around the corner on Canal Street, the main thoroughfare in the central business district, people sloshed headlong through hip-deep water as looters ripped open the steel gates on the front of several clothing and jewelry stores.

One man, who had about 10 pairs of jeans draped over his left arm, was asked if he was salvaging things from his store.

"No," the man shouted, "that's EVERYBODY'S store."

(Part of this is a cross post, I put up in political pagan, sorry) it is from Yahoo News....

WokeUpDead
August 30th, 2005, 03:37 PM
If you can get away with it then why not?

RowanMegaera
August 30th, 2005, 03:40 PM
If you can get away with it then why not?Blergh. Because all of the decent upstanding individuals end up paying for it in the end.

Food and medicine are one thing, 10 pairs of jeans is a whole other.

Faeawyn
August 30th, 2005, 03:59 PM
If you can get away with it then why not?
Are you kidding me?? So its ok to break the law if you can get away with it? Just where exactly does that line of yours stop? Murder ok? Kidnapping? Extortion? So stealing stuff that belongs to someone else is ok as long as no one see's you or stops you?

WokeUpDead
August 30th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Any time something big happens looting is going to follow soon after. Somebody in charge had to have seen it coming.

Lilith79
August 30th, 2005, 04:45 PM
Food, water, medicine, diapers and other necessities I understand. I even understand some clothing, a few pairs of pants, shirts ect. in case your things are damaged and gone. Who wants to wear the same clothes for 2 weeks? Bleh! But stealing jewelry, electronics et al, that is just plain greed.

Lewen
August 30th, 2005, 06:38 PM
Even a cop joins in the looting

Mike Perlstein and Brian Thevenot
Staff writers

Law enforcement efforts to contain the emergency left by Katrina slipped into chaos in parts of New Orleans Tuesday with some police officers and firefighters joining looters in picking stores clean.

At the Wal-Mart on Tchoupitoulas Street, an initial effort to hand out provisions to stranded citizens quickly disintegrated into mass looting. Authorities at the scene said bedlam erupted after the giveaway was announced over the radio.

While many people carried out food and essential supplies, others cleared out jewelry racks and carted out computers, TVs and appliances on handtrucks.

Some officers joined in taking whatever they could, including one New Orleans cop who loaded a shopping cart with a compact computer and a 27-inch flat screen television.

Officers claimed there was nothing they could do to contain the anarchy, saying their radio communications have broken down and they had no direction from commanders.

“We don’t have enough cops to stop it,” an officer said. “A mass riot would break out if you tried.”

Inside the store, the scene alternated between celebration and frightening bedlam. A shirtless man straddled a broken jewelry case, yelling, “Free samples, free samples over here.”

Another man rolled a mechanized pallet, stacked six feet high with cases of vodka and whiskey. Perched atop the stack was a bewildered toddler.

Throughout the store and parking lot, looters pushed carts and loaded trucks and vans alongside officers. One man said police directed him to Wal-Mart from Robert’s Grocery, where a similar scene was taking place. A crowd in the electronics section said one officer broke the glass DVD case so people wouldn’t cut themselves.

“The police got all the best stuff. They’re crookeder than us,” one man said.

Most officers, though, simply stood by powerless against the tide of law breakers.

One veteran officer said, “It’s like this everywhere in the city. This tiny number of cops can’t do anything about this. It’s wide open.”

At least one officer tried futilely to control a looter through shame.

“When they say take what you need, that doesn’t mean an f-ing TV,” the officer shouted to a looter. “This is a hurricane, not a free-for-all.”

Sandra Smith of Baton Rouge walked through the parking lot with a 12-pack of Bud Light under each arm. “I came down here to get my daughters,” she said, “but I can’t find them.”

The scene turned so chaotic at times that entrances were blocked by the press of people and shopping carts and traffic jams sprouted on surrounding streets.

Some groups organized themselves into assembly lines to more efficiently cart off goods.

Toni Williams, 25, packed her trunk with essential supplies, such as food and water, but said mass looting disgusted and frightened her.

“I didn’t feel safe. Some people are going overboard,” she said.

Inside the store, one woman was stocking up on make-up. She said she took comfort in watching police load up their own carts.

“It must be legal,” she said. “The police are here taking stuff, too.”

(Staff writers Doug MacCash and Keith Spera assisted in this story.)
www.nola.com (www.nola.com)

and then......
WWL -TV was reporting that a law enforcement officer was shot in the back of the head Tuesday afternoon on the west bank. The officer reportedly approached the looter near the intersection of Wall Boulevard and Gen. DeGaulle and, while talking to suspect, was shot in the back of the head by a second looter.
www.nola.com (www.nola.com)

Well....one thing for sure, my ex-husband is a Deputy Sheriff that works on the West bank. I've not heard from him all day nor can get a hold of him.
It bloody well better not be him who was shot...or someone I know.
My thoughts and prayers to the officer's family.

This just sickens me.

He was supposed to call mini-me today to congratulate her on her first day of kindergarten, but instead is working 12 hour shifts, *hopefully* avoiding getting shot while doing it. I'm still worried.

If it's food or medicine, I'd take it in a heartbeat....but clothes?!?!? Jewellery?!?!?
And now cops doing it too? I heard of corruption in New Orleans police force, but dang!!!

Jenne
August 30th, 2005, 06:49 PM
Wow...shameful and disgusting.

not that WallyWorld can't afford it...but that's not the point...

misty
August 30th, 2005, 06:54 PM
Another man rolled a mechanized pallet, stacked six feet high with cases of vodka and whiskey. Perched atop the stack was a bewildered toddler.

What the hell?

QUEEN OF THE DAMNED
August 30th, 2005, 06:57 PM
You think that if I had a family to feed that I would feel bad about stealing food for them? You're nuts.

I don't agree with stealing jewelery and stuff like that, but if it comes to medicine and food, I can see why they would do it and I can't fault them either.

Completely agree on that one. It's a horrible situation that the New Orleans residents are faced with.
But that is no excuse for stealing things that you have no dire need for.

Mistress_Ravenshadow
August 30th, 2005, 07:04 PM
I'd go for food, diapers, formula, bottled water and blankets.. maybe meds and medical supplies but nothing i didnt need or that wouldnt be useful for others with me.. anything else is a no no.. its a survival thing not a greed thing..

SSanf
August 30th, 2005, 07:25 PM
Every now and then the cosmos does something that redistributes the wealth.

Windigo
August 30th, 2005, 09:33 PM
If you can get away with it then why not?

If ignorance were a disability, you'd get the full pension.

Flar's Freyja
August 30th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Drinks, chips and diapers that were going to get ruined in the floods anyway, I don't have a problem with. They're all necessities, even if some of it's junk food - it's still food. I may not have a problem with taking clothing if the person was unable to recover their own.

But tv's, jewelry, etc., no, that I don't agree with.

Djinn
August 30th, 2005, 09:43 PM
Sandra Smith of Baton Rouge walked through the parking lot with a 12-pack of Bud Light under each arm. “I came down here to get my daughters,” she said, “but I can’t find them.”



Everytime I manage to convince myself that people are basically decent, somebody like this comes along. She can't find her kids so she's stealing beer?!

People suck.

Xander67
August 30th, 2005, 10:07 PM
Oh I agree with the taking what you need out of dispair...

But I was watching video on the news of people stealing Shoes, clothes, Electronics, and other things...

after the dust settles the PD will begin the task of identifying the looters, the kids will be easy to identify ( teachers and principals will most likely be called in to identify students)

Ninjakitten
August 30th, 2005, 10:39 PM
Okay, the situation sickens me because I hate opportunists with a passion (because opportunists tend to be thieves that victimize people in some form, I don't care if the people own a business or not). Being the devil's advocate for a moment, though... wouldn't most of that stuff get ruined and be covered by insurance?

SSanf
August 30th, 2005, 10:40 PM
I don't agree with stealing, especially from the Mom's and Pop's but the real truth is that people might as well take it. All that stuff would be written of as water damaged and companies would collect for it on their insurance, and get tax deductions, anyway. Then, they would be legally obligated to distroy it. So, they may just as well write it off as stolen instead of damaged and collect on their insurance that way and let someone have some use of it.

I know that isn't the ideal world but a lot of work and resources went into making those goods. If the people don't take them, they will be distroyed, anyway, because the companies can make more money by writing them off. When they write things off, there is the element of puffery involved. And, you can bet your sweet bippy things will be puffed a lot!

I know it doesn't make sense but that is the way things work. They might as well loot away and, perhaps, recoup some of their losses. If they go into private homes, THAT will tick me off.

BTW, I once had a job where I was required to distroy thousands of dollars of perfectly good merchandise so the company could write it off. It was disgusting! The more so because I couldn't afford the things I distroyed on what they paid me!!!

pawnman
August 30th, 2005, 11:09 PM
I don't agree with stealing, especially from the Mom's and Pop's but the real truth is that people might as well take it. All that stuff would be written of as water damaged and companies would collect for it on their insurance, and get tax deductions, anyway. Then, they would be legally obligated to distroy it. So, they may just as well write it off as stolen instead of damaged and collect on their insurance that way and let someone have some use of it.

I know that isn't the ideal world but a lot of work and resources went into making those goods. If the people don't take them, they will be distroyed, anyway, because the companies can make more money by writing them off. When they write things off, there is the element of puffery involved. And, you can bet your sweet bippy things will be puffed a lot!

I know it doesn't make sense but that is the way things work. They might as well loot away and, perhaps, recoup some of their losses. If they go into private homes, THAT will tick me off.

BTW, I once had a job where I was required to distroy thousands of dollars of perfectly good merchandise so the company could write it off. It was disgusting! The more so because I couldn't afford the things I distroyed on what they paid me!!!

Of course, I hope you keep this in mind when your insurance premiums go up. And I'm sure the family of the officer shot in the head by looters is just fine with your logic.

Ninjakitten
August 30th, 2005, 11:15 PM
Of course, I hope you keep this in mind when your insurance premiums go up. And I'm sure the family of the officer shot in the head by looters is just fine with your logic.


Oh, that is where the hole in my logic was! <smacks self on forehead> At least I put the "devil's advocate" disclaimer in my response :evilway:

pawnman
August 30th, 2005, 11:18 PM
You know, they have national guard there. They could always institute martial law and start shooting looters on sight.

materra
August 30th, 2005, 11:26 PM
You know, they have national guard there. They could always institute martial law and start shooting looters on sight.

First of all, glad to see you and the other's in that area of hell who survived. Please continue to do so. Also warm hugs and universal energy for those who's loved ones are out helping others.

As for the martial law... it will come as soon as they get the rescue stuff done. It has too or they will not be able to rebuild and become civilization again.

bshore
August 30th, 2005, 11:41 PM
Aside from hoping that everyone in the city comes through uninjured, I really hope that the historical beauty of the city can be preserved. New Orleans was always on my top 5 of places I'd love to visit, and I hope they are able to rebuild.

Teresa
August 31st, 2005, 12:59 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9131493/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9131493/)

Almost makes you not want to help these people.
It is a shame that the minority ruins things for the majority.Criminals will be criminals and seize any opportunity.That does not make me not want to help the majority of people though.We can not judge them all for the acts of a few bad apples.

pawnman
August 31st, 2005, 01:00 AM
It is a shame that the minority ruins things for the majority.Criminals will be criminals and seize any opportunity.That does not make me not want to help the majority of people though.We can not judge them all for the acts of a few bad apples.

Ah, I said almost. Although I wouldn't be above taking some pot shots at looters if I had the chance. Lowest form of scum, even worse than lawyers.

Ninjakitten
August 31st, 2005, 01:13 AM
Lowest form of scum, even worse than lawyers.


Take that back! Even scum have standards! :tongueout

DragonsChest
August 31st, 2005, 09:39 AM
I posted this in another thread, but think it might go here, too. I've adjusted my viewpoint by about 2 degrees.

If you loot for life essentials, like water, food, and meds, don't shoot on sight.

If your arms are full of TVs, jewelry, appliances, etc., then you are scum. This is not a free for all situation - get a clue. This is stealing.

Mjollnir
August 31st, 2005, 09:43 AM
Shoot on sight, if they are carrying "life essentials" shoot the one carrying the least stuff in the leg.

SSanf
August 31st, 2005, 12:09 PM
You want to kill someone because they took a stupid TV when everything they ever owned, worked for or valued was suddenly and cruely stripped from them through no fault of their own??

I don't even believe you mean that.

Let them have the junk if they want it. Little enough for them to have under these stressful circumstances. After it is all looted, things will calm down and people will start acting more rationally.

When a person has lost all, I don't begrudge them a TV or 20 TVs for that matter if it will help them get back on their feet.

What can they get for 20 stolen TVs, anyway? A thousand bucks, maybe? For that, you want them dead? Let them have the darned thousand bucks!

It won't make the insurance premiums go any higher anyway since all that would have been written of as damaged goods. It may just as well be stolen goods. The companies will play their insurers for all they are worth! Same difference.

Lewen
August 31st, 2005, 12:14 PM
I really have a problem with the looters that took all the guns from Walmart and now there are armed men roaming the city looting and some have tried to break into and loot Children's hospital.

I seriously have a problem with that.

On a lighter note, the cop that has been shot is expected to recover. My thoughts and continued prayers and petitons go to the family and all those who suffer.

I have no patience for those that would want to break into a children's hospital and loot it....jeeze people...necessities are one thing, but damn!

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075326 (http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075326)

The above link to the story from the Times Picayune.

<<Looting broke out in some New Orleans neighborhoods, prompting authorities to send more than 70 additional officers and an armed personnel carrier into the city. One police officer was shot in the head by a looter but was expected to recover, authorities said.

A giant new Wal-Mart in New Orleans was looted, and the entire gun collection was taken, The Times-Picayune reported. "There are gangs of armed men in the city moving around the city," said Ebbert, the city's homeland security chief. Also, looters tried to break into Children's Hospital, the governor's office said.

On New Orleans' Canal Street, dozens of looters ripped open the steel gates on clothing and jewelry stores and grabbed merchandise. In Biloxi, Miss., people picked through casino slot machines for coins and ransacked other businesses. In some cases, the looting was in full view of police and National Guardsmen.
>>

Um....yeah....I do begrude them the televisions because frankly, they're no use either wet or dry at this point, among other things.

SSanf
August 31st, 2005, 12:20 PM
Well, the children's hospital is going too far in anyones book. I am talking about Wal-Mart and places like that, of course.

As far as the guns, I just hope they went to people who will use them to guard their homes or places of shelter. Heck, I would steal a gun to guard my home, shelter, loved ones too! You bet I would!

Haerfest Leah
August 31st, 2005, 12:55 PM
Yeah I mentioned this in another thread, it's probably all the same dirt bags that kept hitting my husband & I up for cash when we were there for vacation in July. Its disgusting, food is the only acceptable thing in my book and in this situation only but not all the other stuff their taking. I agree with shooting looters. Stop them any way that works.

Storm Moon
August 31st, 2005, 01:43 PM
I agree that taking necessary supplies like meds, diapers, wipes, food, and other supplies isn't that big of a deal. I heard that someone down there broke into a walgreens to get medicine that they needed. I don't have a problem with that if you are trying to survive down there, but the people taking the electronics are the real dirtbags that should be locked up. But remember, the police can't be in thousands of places at once, especially now that the waters keep rising. Some places are literally impassable and they just can't be everywhere. Plus, I think they can understand what others are going through because they are going through it themselves. Face it, there really isn't much they can really do at this point.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 01:46 PM
If you can get away with it then why not?

How about... BECAUSE IT IS WRONG?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Not only that...what do you expect will happen once the city is put back together? Do you really think all of those businesses have sufficient insurance to cover the loss? Many don't have any! So what happens? Businesses do not return and/or prices skyrocket to cover their losses.

Who loses? EVERYONE!

My question is, why are these people still there? Weren't they ordered to evacuate? Weren't they given the opportunity to go to the Superdome, if they wanted to stay in NO?

Further, why should my tax dollars go to help people doing more damage to themselves and their community?

As for those RESPONSIBLE people...I will help them how I can.

Those who have acted in irresponsible ways, including looting, NO!

DragonsChest
August 31st, 2005, 01:47 PM
I'm sorry, SSanf, we're on opposite sides of the fence with this. I do begrudge them stealing TVs. It's not helping them get back on their feet, as you say. You say 20 stolen TVs: how are they carrying them? Most of the folks doing the looting are those without transportation and unless they've also helped themselves to a fishing boat, I just don't see how in the world this kind of stealing is justified.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 01:56 PM
You want to kill someone because the took a stupid TV when everything they ever owned, worked for or valued was suddenly and cruely stripped from them through no fault of their own??

I don't even believe you mean that.

Let them have the junk if they want it. Little enough for them to have under these stressful circumstances. After it is all looted, things will calm down and people will start acting more rationally.

When a person has lost all, I don't begrudge them a TV or 20 TVs for that matter if it will help them get back on their feet.

What can they get for 20 stolen TVs, anyway? A thousand bucks, maybe? For that, you want them dead? Let them have the darned thousand bucks!

It won't make the insurance premiums go any higher anyway since all that would have been written of as damaged goods. It may just as well be stolen goods. The companies will play their insurers for all they are worth! Same difference.

So, just because I lose everything in a catastrophie, that means I can cause someone else to lose everything too...since it is only fair...it is just sitting there...even though there are bars and glass and other kinds of barriers there, they don't mean anything. And the police should ignore their duty and just let it happen?

You obviously do not understand how business works or how insurance works. Premiums will skyrocket and so will prices. Some businesses don't have enough insurance...heck, I would dare say, most don't. It is a risk assessment and a value judgement.

And for those who stole the guns...the police should SHOOT anyone with a gun and anyone looting during this disaster. Martial Law should be declared since people cannot behave themselves.

I refuse to help anyone who steals...and this is stealing! Plain and simple. No excuses.

If they chose to refuse to evacuate, they should have stocked up and been prepared. If they didn't...too bad...try to get to a shelter and get help. Don't cause more devastation along the way.

I am really upset by those of you who think it is okay to do these things in any form. I thought of the people here as being more honorable than this.

Even when I was pregnant and homeless...even after the baby was born and I was homeless with a child...I did not steal.

RhiannynWildseed
August 31st, 2005, 02:15 PM
And let us not forget that because most of the affected area is under sea level anyway, most insurance companies there DO NOT offer flood insurance, and, if they do, the cost is so sky high, most, especially the little mom and pop places, can't afford it.

Personally, I'd love to see this hoodlums with the electronics and stuff go to a shelter and try to get in with this stuff. Hopefully they're made to chuck it in a dumpster before they're allowed in.

Storm Moon
August 31st, 2005, 02:32 PM
Any stealing is WRONG...There are shelters and programs available to help those in need.

I understand you believe it's wrong, but think about those that CAN'T GET to shelters right now. Also try to imagine yourself in a situation where you needed medicine and had no way to get it or nobody else to help you. Think about if you ever lost your home and everything in it, and you're wading through hip-deep water trying to FIND one of these shelters. Believe me, I wouldn't hesitate to break into a walgreens to get what I needed. BTW, thank you for the negative karma. Right back at you. :geez:

Haerfest Leah
August 31st, 2005, 02:39 PM
INDEBTED!!!! So did you give everyone else on here bad karma because they said that maybe stealing for FOOD ONLY may be ok in this situation or just me?

Get over yourself! When it comes to food it's called survival instinct. Don't take it out on others because you disagree.

Edit: Oh wait StormMoon got hit by you too.

Storm Moon
August 31st, 2005, 02:47 PM
Yep. But thanks to others, I just made up for it, so no worries. :D :huddle:

Lewen
August 31st, 2005, 02:49 PM
Don't feel bad...I got my first negative karma from Indebted too.
Ironically, my soon to be ex-husband is a sheriff's deputy down there and is risking his life to defend these people. I don't encourage looters. Amazing...
Oh well... I'm letting it slide off my back. I've got more important things to worry about, like hearing from him then to worry about my first negative karma.

*hugs to all those that "GET IT"*

Earthy
August 31st, 2005, 03:02 PM
:hugz: Lewie.

RhiannynWildseed
August 31st, 2005, 03:05 PM
I just want to make plain that my problem is with those that are stealing electronics, jewelry, and other stuff pretty frikken useless to them at this point. I understand the peoples' need for food, drinkable water, and medicine....the necessities for survival. And I'm pretty sure the business owners understand that as well.

As for the greedy SOBs...http://www.smileyville.com/images/angry/bigwhack.gif

Old Witch
August 31st, 2005, 03:06 PM
I've been watching on TV all day today........Do you get how bad it is down there? If I had to get food and water for my kids I'd be looting too...You might even need a change of clothes and some underwear, and maybe shoes because those roads are gonna be full of nails, glass, and splinters...I don't think I'd be stealing TVs and computers and jewelry...New Orleans mayor says that there might be thousands dead in New Orleans. Babies will die in a few days without nourishment...All rules are off now...A person has to do what they have to do for their family to survive......If you would rather be moral and dead, go for it..........

Darakash
August 31st, 2005, 03:32 PM
INDEBTED!!!! So did you give everyone else on here bad karma because they said that maybe stealing for FOOD ONLY may be ok in this situation or just me?

Get over yourself! When it comes to food it's called survival instinct. Don't take it out on others because you disagree.

Edit: Oh wait StormMoon got hit by you too.

LOL, actually, I got hit too, and I said that looting is stealing, and bad, and never said it was ok....so I dunno...oh well, it is not like I don't have plenty of karma...but I was a little confused!

Haerfest Leah
August 31st, 2005, 04:06 PM
Oh I actually received an email back from my friends Karyns place thismorning. It was from her boyfriend, he said they were flying to Seattle tomorrow but are ok. The Bed & breakfast is located at Dauphine & Bourbon at the opposite end of the French Quarter than Canal Street. So obviously they have some power.

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 04:25 PM
Food, water, medicine, diapers and other necessities I understand. I even understand some clothing, a few pairs of pants, shirts ect. in case your things are damaged and gone. Who wants to wear the same clothes for 2 weeks? Bleh! But stealing jewelry, electronics et al, that is just plain greed.

I totally agree-- food, clothes, medicine, necessities.
I saw people taking out microwaves and TVs. What for??! You can't even use them!

The max. sentence for looting in Louisanna is 15 years...more than robbery and larceny. I hope they catch those taking advantage of the situation.
THe Mayor said there is a zero tolerance policy.

Also there is a defense for looting for survival (food, clothes, medicine). So those that are doing that will probably not be prosecuted.

I'm suprized there is not more than looting going on... people can do some disgusting things during the worst times-- murder, rape, etc. Hopefully looting is as bad as it gets!

Amethyst Rose
August 31st, 2005, 04:32 PM
At the risk of recieving negative karma.....

If I was in a situation where I had to protect my son and he needed food and/or medicine or even blankets so he wouldn't freeze, and there was no way I could get it otherwise..... yeah, I'd be stealing it too. I'd take it for him before I'd take it for myself, though..... I think that to do otherwise, to take the "moral high road" and let my child starve, would be neglect and much more criminal than looting.

Storm Moon
August 31st, 2005, 04:38 PM
Oh I'm sure the people taking for their family knows it's wrong, but sorry, I believe that family comes first before anything. If you have to steal to feed your family, then have at it.

Gracecat
August 31st, 2005, 04:57 PM
You know, they have national guard there. They could always institute martial law and start shooting looters on sight.
They have, or more specifically state of emergency which carries something of similar nature.

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 05:00 PM
I would take food and necessities.
They were just talking about people bing injured by wood and nails as they walk in the water. Shoes would help that. And to get them, one would have to steal them. Those people with injuries now have to get medical help because open wounds let all those toxins and seuage in...then infections set in.
Food, bottled drinks, blankets, medicine, shoes, clothes-- if I were there I would be stealing them too.

My father was in Vietnam as a special forces sniper...he would be going into combat mode totally if we were there. In war you have to do things you don't like or things that are wrong. This is kind of similar.

But TVs, jewlery, electronics etc-- I don't agree with. It's a waste of energy and time.

RhiannynWildseed
August 31st, 2005, 05:02 PM
What scares me is that all the criminals were turned loose from the jails.

Guns stolen from Walmart + Criminals let out of jail = bad day :goodgrief

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 05:02 PM
They have, or more specifically state of emergency which carries something of similar nature.

They were asking Bush to declare a Sate of Emergency there and the surrounding areas. I wonder if he will do it.



What scares me is that all the criminals were turned loose from the jails.
Guns stolen from Walmart + Criminals let out of jail = bad day


Totally. I saw footage of a pawn shop with like over 10,000 $ worth of firearms. The building was destroyed, but people were picking though it... that means all those guns are out there...

RhiannynWildseed
August 31st, 2005, 05:12 PM
They were asking Bush to declare a Sate of Emergency there and the surrounding areas. I wonder if he will do it.



Totally. I saw footage of a pawn shop with like over 10,000 $ worth of firearms. The building was destroyed, but people were picking though it... that means all those guns are out there...

Yeah, and I'm scared to think what less scrupilous people will do with them.

Gracecat
August 31st, 2005, 05:59 PM
Actually I've heard he already has.

The police department is in utter chaos and there are trained military police that can help bring around organization with a state of emergency. I'm not 100% certain, but other LA friends have mentioned there's an old law on our books that doesn't allow martial law, but SOE would cover the same principles needed.

They haven't released prisoners, they won't do that. They *have* put imprisoned NOLA residents on a flooded overpass surrounded by National Guard armed with rifles and whatnot.

RhiannynWildseed
August 31st, 2005, 06:22 PM
They haven't released prisoners, they won't do that. They *have* put imprisoned NOLA residents on a flooded overpass surrounded by National Guard armed with rifles and whatnot.

All I heard on the news was that they warned residents to beware because they were "opening the jails." If they are keeping them under guard, then that's ok.

Teresa
August 31st, 2005, 06:50 PM
What scares me is that all the criminals were turned loose from the jails.

Guns stolen from Walmart + Criminals let out of jail = bad day :goodgrief
They have the prisoners together with the guards.It is not like they are just running around loose!

SSanf
August 31st, 2005, 06:56 PM
I've been watching on TV all day today........Do you get how bad it is down there? If I had to get food and water for my kids I'd be looting too...You might even need a change of clothes and some underwear, and maybe shoes because those roads are gonna be full of nails, glass, and splinters...I don't think I'd be stealing TVs and computers and jewelry...New Orleans mayor says that there might be thousands dead in New Orleans. Babies will die in a few days without nourishment...All rules are off now...A person has to do what they have to do for their family to survive......If you would rather be moral and dead, go for it..........Gotta say I agree with you.

SSanf
August 31st, 2005, 06:58 PM
The usefulness of the TVs and electronics to the looters is that it makes them feel better to have something instead of nothing. That is what looting is really all about. The economic gain to them is minimal and does not last long but it makes them feel better short term to feel that they are DOING SOMETHING productive to improve their situation even if that something is really of little if any value.

I wouldn't be so self righteous as some of the posters are. The truth is until you, yourself, have faced the situation, you don't know what you would do. Easy to judge others when you aren't being and haven't been tested. I would bet everyone here with rare exception would do the same if they were surrounded by a mob of other people looting.

And, unless you have been in that kind of mob frenzy, yourself. Don't say you wouldn't because you don't really know what you would do. You only know what you hope you would do.

StarCraftLia
August 31st, 2005, 07:06 PM
w

wolf
August 31st, 2005, 07:23 PM
They were asking Bush to declare a Sate of Emergency there and the surrounding areas. I wonder if he will do it.

I believe that a Federally Declared Disaster status was put in place before Katrina made landfall.

pawnman
August 31st, 2005, 07:51 PM
The usefulness of the TVs and electronics to the looters is that it makes them feel better to have something instead of nothing. That is what looting is really all about. The economic gain to them is minimal and does not last long but it makes them feel better short term to feel that they are DOING SOMETHING productive to improve their situation even if that something is really of little if any value.

I wouldn't be so self righteous as some of the posters are. The truth is until you, yourself, have faced the situation, you don't know what you would do. Easy to judge others when you aren't being and haven't been tested. I would bet everyone here with rare exception would do the same if they were surrounded by a mob of other people looting.

And, unless you have been in that kind of mob frenzy, yourself. Don't say you wouldn't because you don't really know what you would do. You only know what you hope you would do.

I know exactly what I would do...put on a uniform and help maintain order the best way I knew how, until someone who outranked me took over. I certainly wouldn't start stealing stuff.

RhiannynWildseed
August 31st, 2005, 08:23 PM
I HAVE been caught in the midst of a mob frenzy. I pushed and struggled until I got myself out of that situation. I DID NOT join in the mob and their actions, so if that makes me self-righteous, then, hell, I'm proud of it.

Xander67
August 31st, 2005, 08:26 PM
well, the mayor has given the word that everyone in NOLA has to go As soon as possible, the national guard is en route to help facilitate this ...

Threase
August 31st, 2005, 08:48 PM
Personally I don't see what the big deal on looting is, anyway. Everyone's saying how awful it is for people to steal stuff- why is it so horrible? I see nothing wrong with sacking a groccery store, clothing store, jewlery store- or any kind of store, if I were in that situation.

I kind of agree... I mean, let's face it people... the flood's destroyed everything. Everyone is going to have to start over. Even if things like TVs and all that stuff wasn't being stolen, who's going to want to buy a potentially damaged TV anyways?

But just because I'm not condeming those people doesn't mean I'd do the same. I'd say what most others have said... I'd get food, medical supplies, clothing and hygene products if I'd lost my house, and blackets and things like that. Stuff to survive. And yeah, I might get a weapon for protection (not necessarily a gun, because those are too unpredictable... probably a good sized knife) because there ARE crazies out there who are feeling more than just a little desperate...

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 08:53 PM
I would take food and necessities.
They were just talking about people bing injured by wood and nails as they walk in the water. Shoes would help that. And to get them, one would have to steal them. Those people with injuries now have to get medical help because open wounds let all those toxins and seuage in...then infections set in.
Food, bottled drinks, blankets, medicine, shoes, clothes-- if I were there I would be stealing them too.

My father was in Vietnam as a special forces sniper...he would be going into combat mode totally if we were there. In war you have to do things you don't like or things that are wrong. This is kind of similar.

But TVs, jewlery, electronics etc-- I don't agree with. It's a waste of energy and time.


Why are we making assumptions that these people don't have shoes? or clothes? at home?

These people could have taken refuge in the SuperDome and then be bussed here to Houston. Their choice to not be prepared for the long haul - ie having food, water, etc for a couple of weeks...is their choice. I do not believe that I (or the shop owners) should have to pay for thier lack of planning. Stealing is wrong. Period.

As for those who don't think I have any compassion...PHOOEY on you.

I have plenty of compassion for law-abiding citizens...even those who come to this country legally. It is the illegal stuff for which I have no compassion.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 08:54 PM
I HAVE been caught in the midst of a mob frenzy. I pushed and struggled until I got myself out of that situation. I DID NOT join in the mob and their actions, so if that makes me self-righteous, then, hell, I'm proud of it.

AMEN! And you will be repaid in Paradise or Summerland or whatever place you believe in for those good people. Karma Smacks for you!

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 08:55 PM
I know exactly what I would do...put on a uniform and help maintain order the best way I knew how, until someone who outranked me took over. I certainly wouldn't start stealing stuff.

I feel better with good honest men like yourself defending our country!

atropa
August 31st, 2005, 08:58 PM
Well, the children's hospital is going too far in anyones book. I am talking about Wal-Mart and places like that, of course.

As far as the guns, I just hope they went to people who will use them to guard their homes or places of shelter. Heck, I would steal a gun to guard my home, shelter, loved ones too! You bet I would!

Somehow I don't think that's why they're stealing the guns.

Xander67
August 31st, 2005, 08:59 PM
Why are we making assumptions that these people don't have shoes? or clothes? at home?
.


What home? there is nothing left for some people....

Would you deny a baby food? I believe that stealing is wrong, yes, but when you are trapped in an area surrounded by water and the nearest shelter is a day's "Swim" away and your baby is hungry, what do you do :whatgives:

but you dont have to worry about the looting much longer, the looting is now being dealt with in NOLA at the expense of search and rescue....

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 09:01 PM
You know what I find ridiculous? Here we are on a Pagan board with members of all different religions...and in this discussion, no one has even mentioned the Rede...

And Do What Ye Will...And Harm Ye None.

So what do you think these looters are doing? Harming the store owners, harming the reputation of the entire city, harming each other, harming those that need to be rescued because the police have now been ordered off search and rescue and into Downtown to stop this insanity. How in the world can we legitimize this harmful behavior? There is a reason it is against the law.

And unless you have paid taxes...you would not understand anyway.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 09:14 PM
I HAVE been caught in the midst of a mob frenzy. I pushed and struggled until I got myself out of that situation. I DID NOT join in the mob and their actions, so if that makes me self-righteous, then, hell, I'm proud of it.

I have been in a very similar situation as what is going on in NO. And I have been homeless...truly homeless. I did not join in the bad behavior, when I could have so easliy compromised my integrity and done so...trying to justify my actions just as those here seem so ready to do.

Fortunately, I have paid taxes and I understand the impact of this kind of behavoir on our economy...the ripple effect it has. I also understand how by justifying this kind of behavoir, we steal from ourselves as well...devaluing our own self worth.

Now, I have pulled myself from the gutter I was in...but not alone. Services are available all over the place to help. And now, there are more than a few shelters and services in place. As a matter of fact, the SuperDome would have accepted these people if they had only gone. Walking is always an option.

As for the feeble...I personally think the city should have provided free transport for them to the SuperDome.

DragonsChest
August 31st, 2005, 09:16 PM
The usefulness of the TVs and electronics to the looters is that it makes them feel better to have something instead of nothing. That is what looting is really all about. The economic gain to them is minimal and does not last long but it makes them feel better short term to feel that they are DOING SOMETHING productive to improve their situation even if that something is really of little if any value.

I wouldn't be so self righteous as some of the posters are. The truth is until you, yourself, have faced the situation, you don't know what you would do. Easy to judge others when you aren't being and haven't been tested. I would bet everyone here with rare exception would do the same if they were surrounded by a mob of other people looting.

And, unless you have been in that kind of mob frenzy, yourself. Don't say you wouldn't because you don't really know what you would do. You only know what you hope you would do.

No. I can say what I would do, because I have firm beliefs in right and wrong. I will kill not to murder, but only to defend and protect. I will be a person you can trust when I say something - my word is good. I will treat others the way I want to be treated - I will not revert to a Lord of the Flies mentality. I would take only what I needed to survive and to help others survive.

I am not hoping I would do these things, I know I would. I have been raised to be a moral person, and to do the right thing. I know what the right thing is - and I will do it. I am glad to say I have nothing in common with those who would fall to such levels, and I pity them.

Ninjakitten
August 31st, 2005, 09:17 PM
So what do you think these looters are doing? Harming the store owners, harming the reputation of the entire city, harming each other, harming those that need to be rescued because the police have now been ordered off search and rescue and into Downtown to stop this insanity. How in the world can we legitimize this harmful behavior? There is a reason it is against the law.

And unless you have paid taxes...you would not understand anyway.


I have to agree with you there for the most part. Stealing is wrong because it does harm others. I do have to detract from stealing only what is necessary for survival if it's going to get ruined anyway from the floods, though. I'm not considering stealing guns, and in most cases clothes and such as being necessary for survival in a situation like this, BTW, except maybe the clothes if the circumstances were right.

Most of the junk that's being reported I have to very strongly condemn, though. Adding on to my devil's advocate comment earlier I made, I have to say logically that even if insurance would help the store owners if the stuff was either stolen or damaged, if it was because it was stolen, the insurance rates go up and everyone pays for that except for the thieves.

Personally, and I do mean this, I would only take what I needed to survive. I keep putting myself in the shoes of the store owners who opened their stores to make a better life for their families, and in many cases fill a need in their community. I hate when opportunists take advantage of that "because only rich people own businesses" or some junk. I won't condemn someone, though, for trying to survive. It's not like God does the "raining down with manna" thing for people in need anymore afterall...

Xander67
August 31st, 2005, 09:23 PM
I agree with you, stealing is wrong,

stealing food and water is just as bad as stealing a TV...
it is horrible.

but people have to eat, I would do the same thing...... well not really, I would not have been stupid enough to stay behind... :jumpshot:

Lewen
August 31st, 2005, 09:44 PM
For those that even know or care, I did finally get a garbled message from my ex-hubby. He's alive and I'm thankful for that.

I do not condone looting...but I've read that they opened the store for people to get what they need and in that, I would get the supplies I only needed for my family. I do not condone breaking and entering or breaking the law in any shape or form.

I do hope justice is done for the sake of the officer that got shot trying to stop the looters. My heart lies with him and his family as well as those who are devestated by it. I've got family members down there now that are not only homeless, but jobless...my home is open to them and all who have need of a place to stay.

That's all I have to say...I'm going to cry now because I've heard from my children's father and he's all right and he's busting his ass to protect and serve down there.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 09:45 PM
For those that even know or care, I did finally get a garbled message from my ex-hubby. He's alive and I'm thankful for that.

I do not condone looting...but I've read that they opened the store for people to get what they need and in that, I would get the supplies I only needed for my family. I do not condone breaking and entering or breaking the law in any shape or form.

I do hope justice is done for the sake of the officer that got shot trying to stop the looters. My heart lies with him and his family as well as those who are devestated by it. I've got family members down there now that are not only homeless, but jobless...my home is open to them and all who have need of a place to stay.

That's all I have to say...I'm going to cry now because I've heard from my children's father and he's all right and he's busting his ass to protect and serve down there.


In the case of the store owner who opened his/her store to help those in need...I agree with those taking advantage of that.

I am glad to hear your ex is okay and is serving and protecting. I believe there is a special place in Heaven for police and fire fighters...

Ninjakitten
August 31st, 2005, 09:57 PM
For those that even know or care, I did finally get a garbled message from my ex-hubby. He's alive and I'm thankful for that.

I do not condone looting...but I've read that they opened the store for people to get what they need and in that, I would get the supplies I only needed for my family. I do not condone breaking and entering or breaking the law in any shape or form.

I do hope justice is done for the sake of the officer that got shot trying to stop the looters. My heart lies with him and his family as well as those who are devestated by it. I've got family members down there now that are not only homeless, but jobless...my home is open to them and all who have need of a place to stay.

That's all I have to say...I'm going to cry now because I've heard from my children's father and he's all right and he's busting his ass to protect and serve down there.


I"m so glad to hear your ex is okay. I'll pray and send energies that he remains that way. :hugz:

Flar's Freyja
August 31st, 2005, 09:59 PM
Well, after turning CNN on after I got home tonight I take back what I said earlier. When they're having to pull police officers off rescue to control the looters, that's just too much.

The people there are saying that help came too late and isn't enough, and someone from some office in Baton Rouge said she agreed. A senator from LA that they spoke to was rather defensive. FEMA says 5 days is reasonable, and it was also pointed out that that preparatory actions were taken. If they'd sent the Red Cross in too soon, those people would have also become part of the problem instead of the solution, which made sense.

*sigh* All I know is that I felt very small for bitching about gas prices after I actually saw some of the film. They almost made some of these people out to be whiney, but I'm sure most of us would be a wee bit irritable waiting for help when we weren't sure we'd survive the wait.

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 10:00 PM
You know what I find ridiculous? Here we are on a Pagan board with members of all different religions...and in this discussion, no one has even mentioned the Rede...
And Do What Ye Will...And Harm Ye None.
So what do you think these looters are doing? Harming the store owners, harming the reputation of the entire city, harming each other, harming those that need to be rescued because the police have now been ordered off search and rescue and into Downtown to stop this insanity. How in the world can we legitimize this harmful behavior? There is a reason it is against the law.
And unless you have paid taxes...you would not understand anyway.

First off: Not everyone here is Wiccan and not everyone follows the Rede. It's not universal among Pagans.

in LA there is a defense for looting for survival. These people that take food, drinks, clothes, medicine and yes even shoes (think about all the hazzards of nails and such under the water) wll probably not be prosecuted. It is only those that are injuring and stealing unnessecary items that will be

Also you say looting is bad no matter what, but so is killing. Would you not kill a person who is raping your loved ones or threatening your life? If you were in a war zone would you know pull that trigger? Or would you say "Oh, I'm sorry you were raped and beaten to a pulp, but uh, assult , battery and the use of deadly force are all bad...sorry." Get over it.
What is happening here is not comparable. This is not a story about a man who was laid off and robbed a bank killing five people-- if it was then I would not agree, he would have other options. These are people who have no food, no money, no home, no clean water, NOTHING. Get some frickin compassion.
"Harm none" my ass. We're not talking about magickal rituals and magick here. Not feeding your kids and people is harming them. What would you rather them drink the FILTHY water? Spread MORE sickness? More people to crowd hospitals? Stores are the only places with these things! It sucks that they are being looted, but where else can you get things when 80% of your city is underwater?
These people are in a situation that NO ONE here in America has faced. You may say you won't loot, but you aren't there starving for food and dying of thirst in the heat and humidity.
Stealing under any other circumstances is bad, so is killing and beaking any law. But these are not normal times.
Give me some bad karma, I don't get a flying F--k. :deviltail I gave you some, return the favor, I don't care
I've heard stories from my father about survival in the Vietnam war--you know what they had to so some sad, sick and F-ed up things to complete missions and survive. That's what happens when you are push on the brink of things.
Get off your high horse and get over it.

Sorry for my attitude but, seriously... :aburst:

"Get a clue" I'm sorry, but I HAVE a clue. You are the one living in la la perfect land. :G

MsFireHaven
August 31st, 2005, 10:17 PM
I understand you believe it's wrong, but think about those that CAN'T GET to shelters right now. Also try to imagine yourself in a situation where you needed medicine and had no way to get it or nobody else to help you. Think about if you ever lost your home and everything in it, and you're wading through hip-deep water trying to FIND one of these shelters. Believe me, I wouldn't hesitate to break into a walgreens to get what I needed. BTW, thank you for the negative karma. Right back at you. :geez:


Let me ask you then, Why if they are able to wade thru water to steal cant they just as easily wade thru the water to park it at a shelter?
This makes me so angry, I have tried to just stay out of the conversation, but, STEALING IS STEALING!
And if one of these stored were yours, just how pissed would you be to find everything gone, especially stuff that was salvagable!

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 10:22 PM
And if one of these stored were yours, just how pissed would you be to find everything gone, especially stuff that was salvagable!


All the buildings there aren't going to be salvagable. All the stores, homes and bulidings will get wood rot in the humidy and heat and will get TOXIC mold. When/if that happens everything must be trashed. Eve the buildings where there is no standing water...they have water in their walls and everywhere else. So it would have been lost anyway most likely. Toxic mold is a scary and DEADLY thing.

Also do you really think those store owners don't understand? Hell they might be doing the same things where they are! They can most likely write off all the damage and loss to the storm and get recompensated for it.

Willow Rosette
August 31st, 2005, 10:27 PM
I heard on the news this morning a walmart was sacked in like an hour and the first thing to go was the gun dept. Comming from a parents point of view I would deffinately do it for food, water, dry clothes for my daughter, and possible a gun to protect us with untill things got under control.

But then tonight I read on msn that the mayor has taken 1500 officers OFF surch and rescue to get the looting under control. WTF? So he is saying that whatever these people are taking is more important than the human lives? I dont get that....

Can someone explain?????

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 10:32 PM
Stealing guns is not ok to me as I have stated.
BUT in their defense they probably see themselves and a "life and death" fight for survival. Who knows? None of us are in in their fame of mind and under that amount of stress and shock.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 10:33 PM
First off: Not everyone here is Wiccan and not everyone follows the Rede. It's not universal among Pagans.

But don't all religions have something similar?


Also you say looting is bad no matter what, but so is killing. Would you not kill a person who is raping your loved ones or threatening your life? If you were in a war zone would you know pull that trigger? Or would you say "Oh, I'm sorry you were raped and beaten to a pulp, but uh, assult , battery and the use of deadly force are all bad...sorry." Get over it.

My religion states...Thou Shalt Not Murder...not kill...murder...

It also allows for defense of life and limb, including those of your loved ones.

However, the laws of the land require comparable force (except you can kill for a serious threat and imminent danger in Texas...thank goodness)




These are people who have no food, no money, no home, no clean water, NOTHING. Get some frickin compassion.

I have plenty of compassion...but for the law-abiding citizens, not the criminal element...


Not feeding your kids and people is harming them. What would you rather them drink the FILTHY water? Spread MORE sickness? More people to crowd hospitals? Stores are the only places with these things! It sucks that they are being looted, but where else can you get things when 80% of your city is underwater?
These people are in a situation that NO ONE here in America has faced. You may say you won't loot, but you aren't there starving for food and dying of thirst in the heat and humidity.

I would think staying in the town rather than in the dome - they could have walked - would be harming them more. The people who stayed are guilty of EXTREMELY BAD JUDGMENT. Those who steal or guilty of MUCH MORE! The grocery stores that opened so people could get the essentials were gracious and providing a service. These morons could have gone there, but rather than doing what is honorable, they chose to B&E and Steal.....I do not have to support illegal behavoir and I WILL NOT!


Give me some bad karma, I don't get a flying F--k. :deviltail I gave you some, you can return the favor if you wish
...
Get off your high horse and get over it.

Sorry for my attitude but, seriously... :aburst:

I don't do the "pay-back" Karma thing...It is WRONG, too...as well as childish!

As for my high horse...I will stay firmly seated...I will not compromise my integrity and honor.

As for your attitude....and my past (of which you have no idea)...Whatever about your attitude...and keep my past - which has its own devastation and horror stories, including homelessness with children and how I pulled myself out of it - out of it. You have no clue and no say.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 10:36 PM
Also do you really think those store owners don't understand? Hell they might be doing the same things where they are! They can most likely write off all the damage and loss to the storm and get recompensated for
it.

OMG...I cannot believe you believe that. Most of the Mom&Pop stores - of which there are plenty and are the ones closest to the poor neighborhoods - do not have adequate insurance because they cannot afford it. Why? Because of crap like this.

Djinn
August 31st, 2005, 10:38 PM
But don't all religions have something similar?

No. Some religions don't have an enforcement component to their ethics. And some people don't base their ethics on their religion. Take a look in the Just Pagan forum for some excellent discussion of pagan ethics from many sources.

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 10:40 PM
OMG...I cannot believe you believe that. Most of the Mom&Pop stores - of which there are plenty and are the ones closest to the poor neighborhoods - do not have adequate insurance because they cannot afford it. Why? Because of crap like this.

Their stores are toast anyway. Rot, Mold and structructual damage have already claimed them. Tere is noting left of whole streets and towns! If they have no insurace I am sad for them and their situation, but the storm already did them in. Sure looking addes to it, but looting of not there was a problem.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 10:41 PM
Well, after turning CNN on after I got home tonight I take back what I said earlier. When they're having to pull police officers off rescue to control the looters, that's just too much.

The people there are saying that help came too late and isn't enough, and someone from some office in Baton Rouge said she agreed. A senator from LA that they spoke to was rather defensive. FEMA says 5 days is reasonable, and it was also pointed out that that preparatory actions were taken. If they'd sent the Red Cross in too soon, those people would have also become part of the problem instead of the solution, which made sense.

*sigh* All I know is that I felt very small for bitching about gas prices after I actually saw some of the film. They almost made some of these people out to be whiney, but I'm sure most of us would be a wee bit irritable waiting for help when we weren't sure we'd survive the wait.


But Freyja....these people chose to stay in their squalid situation when they knew they had an opportunity for shelter. They stayed rather than evacuating. Poor planning on their part does not (or should not) create an emergency on (the area security's) part.

I'll bitch about the gas prices
I'll be greatful it didn't hit Galveston head on
I'll help those I can...as long as they had no part in the looting and general illegal activity
I'll pray for the law enforcement officers and military personnel who are there to put peace back in place and
I'll pray that those who have broken the law will be brought to justice...especially now since state law is not the ruling factor in judgment...martial law...martial rule...stealing is an offense and there is no justification.

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 10:46 PM
....these people chose to stay in their squalid situation when they knew they had an opportunity for shelter. They stayed rather than evacuating. Poor planning on their part does not (or should not) create an emergency on (the area security's) part.

No not everyone chose to stay, but ended up staying. There were some that were too poor to leave--- had no cars or anything to go anywhere. Some were elderly and unable to leave. For some it happened SO fast that they were caught off guard. Don't blame them for being in that situation.

Also people knew about this in MAY- that's right May. Fox News reported on this way back. They perdicted damage in New Orleans and updated it to all of the Gulf in June. So technically everyone there had time to do something and prevent this, but one one did. Do you blame everyone for not doing anything? No. We need to focus on the future, not on the past.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 10:48 PM
Their stores are toast anyway. Rot, Mold and structructual damage have already claimed them. Tere is noting left of whole streets and towns! If they have no insurace I am sad for them and their situation, but the storm already did them in. Sure looking addes to it, but looting of not there was a problem.

And you accuse ME of callousness? At least the store owners were law-abiding citizens...

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 10:50 PM
No not everyone chose to stay, but ended up staying. There were some that were too poor to leave--- had no cars or anything to go anywhere. Some were elderly and unable to leave. For some it happened SO fast that they were caught off guard. Don't blame them for being in that situation.


They have feet and have proven that they can walk...many who are not taking part of the criminal behavoir have walked to the SuperDome and will be transported to Houston for housing. They have had food and water dropped for them...

As for the elderly...they had the opportunity to go to the Dome as well. There are resources that were available to them to transport them there.

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 10:50 PM
And you accuse ME of callousness? At least the store owners were law-abiding citizens...

I'm stating a fact, watch the news, there is nothing left of buildings. And water creates rot and mold. I am SAD for them, but nothing can be done. Nature already took it's toll on the buildings.

Flar's Freyja
August 31st, 2005, 10:50 PM
But Freyja....these people chose to stay in their squalid situation when they knew they had an opportunity for shelter. They stayed rather than evacuating. Poor planning on their part does not (or should not) create an emergency on (the area security's) part.



You're right there.

Kind of like Flar always refusing to leave this mobile home during tornado warnings - not just watches, the damn sirens were actually going off. I'd remind him of his idol Jeff Foxworthy's statement that 'God hates mobile homes' to no avail.....

I used to accuse him of tempting something other than CF to kill him so he could give CF the finger. He'd have loved that. :hearthear

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 10:52 PM
You're right there.

Kind of like Flar always refusing to leave this mobile home during tornado warnings - not just watches, the damn sirens were actually going off. I'd remind him of his idol Jeff Foxworthy's statement that 'God hates mobile homes' to no avail.....

I used to accuse him of tempting something other than CF to kill him so he could give CF the finger. He'd have loved that. :hearthear

And he would have been right in the middle of this debate, too. :hugz:

Madame De La Mort
August 31st, 2005, 10:55 PM
Even in the shelters people are stealing from other people. Which is just plain wrong as well as heartless

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 10:56 PM
Even in the shelters people are stealing from other people. Which is just plain wrong as well as heartless

Yes, I agree there. Shelters are there to help. If you are out in the middle of some flooded area with one one around you and no help that is different. But shelters...that's sick.

indebted
August 31st, 2005, 10:58 PM
Yes, I agree there. Shelters are there to help. If you are out in the middle of some flooded area with one one around you and no help that is different. But shelters...that's sick.


Well, BF, we agree on at least one thing.

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 10:59 PM
Well, BF, we agree on at least one thing.

LOL. I Guess so. I'm sure we agree on other things as well, they just aren't coming out in this lovely thread.

Madame De La Mort
August 31st, 2005, 10:59 PM
Some fire departments are crap. They are not helping at all. They are bringing people in from New York to help.

Willow Rosette
August 31st, 2005, 11:00 PM
Wow I kinda think that was blown a little bit out of proportion. In the end those of us that are not in this perticular situation cannot say how we would react. Is it wrong to loot to feed, clothe, and protect your self and family? Obviously I do not think so, but from what I have seen on the news and that is not a whole lot there are people taking things that they do not need to survive and that I do believe is wrong. I think instead of getting upset at eachother here we need to goin together and pray that people are found alive and the death toll does not rise anymore than it already has. Spreading dis-ease even here will spread that energy into the world and there is already enough of that out there.
LOL By the time I typed and posted this the threads I was responding to were no longer there.

Flar's Freyja
August 31st, 2005, 11:00 PM
And he would have been right in the middle of this debate, too. :hugz:

Yep, he'd be in the middle because as always, he'd see both sides :boquet:

Darakash
August 31st, 2005, 11:01 PM
LOL, actually, I got hit too, and I said that looting is stealing, and bad, and never said it was ok....so I dunno...oh well, it is not like I don't have plenty of karma...but I was a little confused!

Oh, by the way, I felt it important to point out, that Indebted and I have talked, since I PMed, and there has been nothing but fairness and agreement...so I guess it is important that I point out, that there is reason there and fairness, and not just knee jerk reaction....so, regardless of initial impressions, this is a reasonable, and thought out reaction and not just "I think X and therefore it is true" kind of stupidity....make your case or point and you might see that indebted is not some kind of automaton...or mindless whatever.....

Xander67
August 31st, 2005, 11:22 PM
Lewen, GLad to know you got your phone call and everthing with him is ok...

djmixon
August 31st, 2005, 11:29 PM
Any time something big happens looting is going to follow soon after. Somebody in charge had to have seen it coming.

Here's a quarter...buy a clue

djmixon
August 31st, 2005, 11:35 PM
Their stores are toast anyway. Rot, Mold and structructual damage have already claimed them. Tere is noting left of whole streets and towns! If they have no insurace I am sad for them and their situation, but the storm already did them in. Sure looking addes to it, but looting of not there was a problem.

AS IF the humidity there had nothing to do with it over the last 100 years or so...

Not all wood that has been flooded will get mold. There are ways to treat it and let it dry. The idea is to get it done right away after the waters retreat.

Think of Allison and the damage it did to Houston. Homes and buisnesses were flooded for weeks. There there were storms that came in right after that to complicate the situation.

Did they all get torn down? NO!

Did they get looted? NO!

Not every disaster ends up with bad actors making the whole thing worse. And not everyone looses everything just because it was flooded.

I have several friends who "lost everything" in Allison and still live in the same house they lived in when the water came in over the rooftops and stayed. It is how the situation is handled that makes the difference.

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 11:38 PM
Well that is a good thing then. Maybe news hypes everything up, who knows. But if NO is going to have a flooding problem for months-- then wouldn't that cause mold? That's one of the things everyone is talking about on the channels. And from schools in my area I know toxic mold needs to be cleaned out thoughly.

fighting spirit
August 31st, 2005, 11:38 PM
ive been watching dateline tonight, weeping in my spirit for the things going on...sadly i can see both sides of this "arguement" (if you will)...the fact is that so many of these people are going to have to start completly over..that must be a tempting solution to have something of value even if not necessity...to help you rebuild your life..(and im talking about those who lost everything). Yes soo much greed and im afraid contempt as well...god my heart breaks over these things...we the course of the human spieces. so oh well for the arguement...to anyone affected or who have still not heard from loved ones...my heart is with you, and as i said for you my spirit weeps...for those of you looking to make a dime of profit from it...i hope im around when karma catches up to you...(i too have my "wrong way of thinking" sometimes...i enjoy watching you get yours.

MsFireHaven
August 31st, 2005, 11:41 PM
All the buildings there aren't going to be salvagable. All the stores, homes and bulidings will get wood rot in the humidy and heat and will get TOXIC mold. When/if that happens everything must be trashed. Eve the buildings where there is no standing water...they have water in their walls and everywhere else. So it would have been lost anyway most likely. Toxic mold is a scary and DEADLY thing.

Also do you really think those store owners don't understand? Hell they might be doing the same things where they are! They can most likely write off all the damage and loss to the storm and get recompensated for it.


Stealing is stealing, Weather the stuff is gonna get ruined or not. Its no excuse. If its not yours dont touch it. What are these people teaching their children by doing this?

djmixon
August 31st, 2005, 11:41 PM
They were asking Bush to declare a Sate of Emergency there and the surrounding areas. I wonder if he will do it.

He did that already...

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 11:44 PM
Stealing is stealing, Weather the stuff is gonna get ruined or not. Its no excuse. If its not yours dont touch it. What are these people teaching their children by doing this?

You're entitled to your opinion and I to mine.
In normal circumstances I would not say it or any other crime is okay.



He did that already...

Thanks someone already let me know...

djmixon
August 31st, 2005, 11:44 PM
Personally I don't see what the big deal on looting is, anyway. Everyone's saying how awful it is for people to steal stuff- why is it so horrible? I see nothing wrong with sacking a groccery store, clothing store, jewlery store- or any kind of store, if I were in that situation.

Maybe because you are too young to have a job or to have paid taxes?

Here's a quarter...buy a clue!

Agaliha
August 31st, 2005, 11:51 PM
Ok you know what, I am done with this thread and the bickering and bad karma and negativity.
I have stated my opinion and tried to support it. I am aware many disagree. That's fine, you are entitled.
But I don't want to keep bitching and arguing anymore.
Say whatever bad things about me because I agree with looting NECESSITIES for Survival- food, bottled water, blankets, medicine etc.
I'm sorry I got involved in the first place.
BTW, I'm not some advocate for criminal behaviors and I'm not a criminal myself, I wanted to be a cop for 7 years and I would be one now if my vision was not so bad. I respect the law and everything about it. But desperate times call for desperate measures.

Teresa
September 1st, 2005, 12:12 AM
2 years ago I went thur a flood.I lost my home and all my belongings,my car,my job in that one act of nature.I can not condone looting.It is stealing,bottom line! It would be different if those shop owners opened the doors and said take what you need it will be ruined in a matter of time anyway.I can not condone people stealing guns and forcing others out of their cars and stealing from others at gun point either.

When I went through the devastation of the flood the thought of looting or stealing never ever crossed my mind.There were some days I went without food or drink as well.I learned from listening to others about places set up to help and stores that threw things out at the end of the day.I prayed alot and cried alot and low and behold by some magical means I was always provided for by some strange or magical act.There was an upscale store which threw away food at the end of the day.It was left out back in buggys at the dumpster.I took what I needed from there and survived until I could do better.People made a way for me to be able to bathe and wash my clothes so I could look for another job.Things worked out without me having to resort to looting or stealing which never crossed my mind in my darkest moment of my life.

Those that know me know I am not one to judge others.To me looting and stealing is wrong plain and simple.Arguing among ourselves will not change a thing.One thing we can do is try to help others who are suffering and are feeling hopeless even if You just say a prayer for them or send energy those things can be done without having money or items to send! We should come together as a community in this great time of need and not be insulting each other and arguing!

Teresa
September 1st, 2005, 12:22 AM
I understand you believe it's wrong, but think about those that CAN'T GET to shelters right now. Also try to imagine yourself in a situation where you needed medicine and had no way to get it or nobody else to help you. Think about if you ever lost your home and everything in it, and you're wading through hip-deep water trying to FIND one of these shelters. Believe me, I wouldn't hesitate to break into a walgreens to get what I needed. BTW, thank you for the negative karma. Right back at you. :geez:
I lost my medication in The Flood and the RED CROSS got some for me and brought it to me.I did wade thru chest high water and I did make it to a shelter on foot.

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 12:57 AM
Ok you know what, I am done with this thread and the bickering and bad karmas and negativity.
I have stated my opinion and tried to support it. I am aware many disagree. That's fine, you are entitled.
But I don't want to keep bitching and arguing anymore.
Say whatever bad things about me because I agree with looting NECESSITIES for Survival- food, bottled water, blankets, medicine etc.
I'm sorry I got involved in the first place.
BTW, I'm not some advocate for criminal behaviors and I'm not a criminal myself, I wanted to be a cop for 7 years and I would be one now if my vision was not so bad. I respect the law and everything about it. But desperate times call for desperate measures.

Desparate measures like...evacuating the damn city when they tell you a category 5 hurricane is coming, and seeking out the aid agencies there to help rather than looting the place and taking whatever you can get?

Flar's Freyja
September 1st, 2005, 01:04 AM
Desparate measures like...evacuating the damn city when they tell you a category 5 hurricane is coming, and seeking out the aid agencies there to help rather than looting the place and taking whatever you can get?

I believe she said she was done with this thread. ~ _cloud9_ Flar7

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 01:06 AM
I believe she said she was done with this thread. ~ _cloud9_ Flar7

Then others may benefit from my wisdom. :fpipesmok

Besides, in my experience, very rarely does someone who says they are done with a thread actually leave it.

PropheticMonkey
September 1st, 2005, 01:16 AM
why is that?

Saggitario
September 1st, 2005, 01:24 AM
Wow! There is so much negativity on the boards lately.

Look, despite however you feel about the morality of looting, the fact remains that it is still going on regardless of how many people think it is OK or not.

I think all the energy we are using to argue could be better spent elsewhere.

DocBruce
September 1st, 2005, 02:04 AM
In May of '04 my lifemate, cub and I lost everything in a flood.
When I was allowed back into the house I discovered that our door had been kicked in and everything above the water line had been stolen.
I hope they cap every last one of those scum-sucking, worthless sacks of garbage.

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 02:08 AM
Stealing is stealing, Weather the stuff is gonna get ruined or not. Its no excuse. If its not yours dont touch it. What are these people teaching their children by doing this?To survive, perhaps!

For pity sake. A stolen watch or any other negotial item can become the trade goods that save their children's lives! Stolen goods could potentially get them to a place of safety or be traded for a can of fruit juice.

The laws of civilization can only work when civilization exists. Right now, where they are it is the survival of the fittest. The weak are already dying. And, by the end of tomorrow, more will. Thirst has already taken a couple, I read. They were left out in the sun on a bridge waiting for a ride that did not come and they died.

I would do it in a heart beat. I wouldn't even think twice about it.

And, the very first things I would steal would be a gun and some amunition. You can bet on that!

Property rights must always give way to the right of survival.

indebted
September 1st, 2005, 04:26 AM
In May of '04 my lifemate, cub and I lost everything in a flood.
When I was allowed back into the house I discovered that our door had been kicked in and everything above the water line had been stolen.
I hope they cap every last one of those scum-sucking, worthless sacks of garbage.

If only I had more karma to give, hun.....you deserve so much more.

Mistress_Ravenshadow
September 1st, 2005, 04:46 AM
How about... BECAUSE IT IS WRONG?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Not only that...what do you expect will happen once the city is put back together? Do you really think all of those businesses have sufficient insurance to cover the loss? Many don't have any! So what happens? Businesses do not return and/or prices skyrocket to cover their losses.

Who loses? EVERYONE!

My question is, why are these people still there? Weren't they ordered to evacuate? Weren't they given the opportunity to go to the Superdome, if they wanted to stay in NO?

Further, why should my tax dollars go to help people doing more damage to themselves and their community?

As for those RESPONSIBLE people...I will help them how I can.

Those who have acted in irresponsible ways, including looting, NO!

well i guess when you have no clean water and no food and your kids are crying because their tummies hurt because they have no food and they are cold,sick and scared a parent will do what they have to do..
i agree that stealing is wrong but sometimes there are mitigating circumstances to a persons actions.. its not always so absolute..
none of it can be sold now because its water damaged so it is lost anyway and if it can be put to good use instead of being wasted it should be used.. jewelry etc being looted is a completely different issue..

those of us who aren't there and aren't going without and aren't going to have to sleep on the cold hard floor of an evac centre shouldn't sit in judgement and shouldn't take a holier then thou attitude towards the people who took things essential to survival, they are just doing what they feel in their desperation they need to do for their families and more then likely wouldn't do under normal circumstances..
I'm human, in a crisis i will do anything i have to, to make sure my family has what they need to survive.. IMO 95% of people would do the same and the other 5% are just lying about it.. family comes first..

and as for those who don't have enough insurance well they won't be covered if their stock is looted or not so from that stand point its a non issue

Illiandra
September 1st, 2005, 06:19 AM
Desparate measures like...evacuating the damn city when they tell you a category 5 hurricane is coming, and seeking out the aid agencies there to help rather than looting the place and taking whatever you can get?

well I don't agree with you... if you had been following the news you would be aware that many people were not only unable to leave but that plenty of those that tried were caught on the highway in the storm. And dispite the aid agencies help there are more people who need it than helpers available. Sometimes you have to look to your family first ( for basic nessesities) and regret the breaking of your ethics later. It is really easy to say go to the gov. or aid agencies that are provided but if you cant get out of you house because your sitting on you roof, or your stuck without help and they are telling you your best bet is to try and walk/swim out of this flooded city, I think you might revert to basic hunter gather skills pretty quick. ( not that those needs should include tv's that won't work and surely don't float)

Storm Moon
September 1st, 2005, 07:10 AM
Let me ask you then, Why if they are able to wade thru water to steal cant they just as easily wade thru the water to park it at a shelter?
This makes me so angry, I have tried to just stay out of the conversation, but, STEALING IS STEALING!
And if one of these stored were yours, just how pissed would you be to find everything gone, especially stuff that was salvagable!

First of all, I don't think I'd be worrying about my store, if I had one. I'd be worrying about my ass. Stores can be rebuilt. Items can be replaced, but a HUMAN LIFE CANNOT BE. Yes, stealing is stealing, I'm sure these people know that. But what can you do when you are freaking STRANDED??? Answer me that. These people didn't really know that the storm would be that bad, so they decided to ride it out, and most probably didn't make it. The ones that DID survive have to survive, even if that means breaking the law and their morals. Frankly, I don't think taking the moral high road is such a good idea when you're hungry, broke, your kids are hungry, babies are needing diapers, etc. Think about that for a change.

Storm Moon
September 1st, 2005, 07:13 AM
I lost my medication in The Flood and the RED CROSS got some for me and brought it to me.I did wade thru chest high water and I did make it to a shelter on foot.

Okay good. I'm glad to hear that YOU made it. But it doesn't mean that everyone else would. Most of the shelters in NO were destroyed by the hurricane.

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 07:50 AM
First of all, I don't think I'd be worrying about my store, if I had one. I'd be worrying about my ass. Stores can be rebuilt. Items can be replaced, but a HUMAN LIFE CANNOT BE. Yes, stealing is stealing, I'm sure these people know that. But what can you do when you are freaking STRANDED??? Answer me that. These people didn't really know that the storm would be that bad, so they decided to ride it out, and most probably didn't make it. The ones that DID survive have to survive, even if that means breaking the law and their morals. Frankly, I don't think taking the moral high road is such a good idea when you're hungry, broke, your kids are hungry, babies are needing diapers, etc. Think about that for a change.

I like this phrase, so I'll repeat it: "You can't eat a TV". Can't use one as a diaper either.

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 07:52 AM
To survive, perhaps!

For pity sake. A stolen watch or any other negotial item can become the trade goods that save their children's lives! Stolen goods could potentially get them to a place of safety or be traded for a can of fruit juice.

The laws of civilization can only work when civilization exists. Right now, where they are it is the survival of the fittest. The weak are already dying. And, by the end of tomorrow, more will. Thirst has already taken a couple, I read. They were left out in the sun on a bridge waiting for a ride that did not come and they died.

I would do it in a heart beat. I wouldn't even think twice about it.

And, the very first things I would steal would be a gun and some amunition. You can bet on that!

Property rights must always give way to the right of survival.

And just how does stealing a TV or jewelry assist in survival?

Storm Moon
September 1st, 2005, 08:18 AM
I like this phrase, so I'll repeat it: "You can't eat a TV". Can't use one as a diaper either.

You so need to read my post again. I didn't say ANYTHING about stealing a TV. That is stupid beyond recognition. I'm talking about food, drinks, medicine, diapers, ANYTHING THAT IS AN ESSENTIAL TO SURVIVE!

And I just adore it when people put words in my mouth LOL :clapping:

Lewen
September 1st, 2005, 09:16 AM
I can speak from experience from what would have happened to me, had I not moved to where I'm at now (Philly, PA).

For the eight years I've lived on the Northshore, near Slidell, my kids have brought home hurricane preparedness papers and it's drilled in our heads every year about hurricane safety and WHAT TO DO IF.....they tell how you how to save and prepare water, fill up your tub, the drill, IF YOU PLAN TO RIDE OUT THE STORM. They also drill in your head how to evacuate properly. My soon to be ex-hubby is a deputy sheriff in Jefferson Parish. Every major hurricane that ever looked to even remotely hit us head on, he was called across the lake before they closed the causeway bridge and I would not hear from him until either the hurricane averted us or hit us. No if's and's or but's...those deputies that refused to leave their families were terminated on the spot. Naturally we couldn't afford that option so goodbye Cavetroll, be safe and I'll see you WHEN.

Our old house has been the family homestead for well over 70 something years. It has withstood Hurricane Betsy and Hurricane Camille. We just assumed that it would withstand any future hurricanes because of those two milestones. We could have been terribly wrong....when we sold our house, we found out later it was torn down, the termite damage (that we were unaware of) would have caused our house to fall down around us with Katrina hitting...we're thankful that we weren't there.

I rode out Hurricane Georges with my two oldest ones back in 1998....I couldn't leave because at that time Cavetroll and I were financially strapped, we barely had the money to fill up the gas tank and we had no place to go...all of our family were in either PA or Oregan, just a tad bit too far for us to go anywhere and his New Orleans family took off for Texas and such and stayed in hotels. We couldn't afford that option. We just dug out our plywood boarded up, stocked up (thanks to the hurricane preparedness that was drilled in our heads from school) and we rode it out. Thankfully Georges shifted as did two other threats before.

Last year, again...we were facing a hurricane (I can't remember it's name, can you believe that?!?!?) and it looked to hit us HEAD ON. The Mayor told the city to evacuate...many did and left, we braced ourselves for the hit (I couldn't leave again because of finances, hurricanes never pick a good time to hit when we were ever financially flush!) so I did the usual of preparing WELL IN ADVANCE, with the bleach, bottled water etc. and half the city evacuated....NOTHING HAPPENED. People bitched that they left too early, left too late, that NOTHING HAPPENED and lost time from work etc....I was just thankful that NOTHING HAPPENED.

My point in typing all this drivel? Is to share my experience that this time around, most likely I would be financially strapped with having to pay for school supplies for my three kids that would be in school, we'd be in-between paychecks and I would not be able to evacuate. My house would not have stood Katrina and I'd be one of those people who is not only alone because hubby would be working across the lake, but I would have five children, one of whom is in diapers, that I would have had to be concerned about...what would I do? I have no idea. I would have tried to walk up the street to the Abita Springs Middle School(the designated shelter), but then, what if there were live wires in the water? We have water moccasins swimming around and yeah, in reality, where I lived, an alligator or two. The Abita Springs Cafe's roof was blown off...no word on how the schools fared.

My truck would have been tanked up and ready to go...but the flooded streets would have made it impassable and I would not have even made it to Baton Rouge and if I did, would have had to camp in my truck with my five kids until suitable shelter was available. I would have had my five gallons per person per day (they call for five days rations we must bring before they would even GIVE YOU FOOD in a shelter) with unperishable food of which most likely, my kids would be begging to eat all of it right away...not to count of the countless times I've heard people stealing from others in a shelter...it's not the ideal place, but you do what you have to if you had to go. Most people do not even prepare or store their food during hurricane season...I just shake my head when my ex-mil and I talked about the "what-if's" if I were still down there with the kids.

We are thankful we're up here, but it could have been horrid for us as it is with those people that were left behind. I can't say I know for sure what their reasons were...but I see both sides...some people do wait until the last minute to evacuate, because it's hard telling when a storm will shift and downgrade their category. There's no telling the time and missed work and some people live paycheck to paycheck and can't afford to take off work to evacuate and then find out that the storm averted altogether, better safe then sorry but the majority of people I know from New Orleans and it's surrounding area aren't affluent, they're working class or poor and rely on paycheck to paycheck or even welfare.

I've lived there for eight years, called it home, caught beads at Mardi Gras with my kids, ate the best beignets with the best coffee from Cafe Du Monde there, ate the best shrimp po' boys in the world at a little place in Metairie, took my kids to the zoo and aquarium there right by the Mississippi River...remembered when a boat crashed into the pier and ruined my favorite christmas shop there during Thanksgiving one time...so many memories...and I see the pictures of the devastation and see the water washing over those memories...unless you've lived there you can't really understand the "Mentality" of it....I talked to my best friend that fled to Florida, her house is gone. She says, "Lewie, unless you've lived there, you don't understand the mentality of it...it's got it's own pace." when I questioned why more people didn't leave. She's native there.

To see New Orleans's own looting, holding up supply trucks and basically turning on it's own people like that is sickening. After all is said and done, will soon to be ex-hubby even have a job or a place? I'm not even going to worry about how he's going to pay child support of which I'm living off of until I finish school to get a job so I can re-enter the work-force after twelve years of being a stay at home mom. I just want him to be safe. My Friends and family down there have no jobs to come home to and now from word of mouth, I hear there's talk of no electricity for two months...even those that wisely prepared to ride out the storm are going to be shite out of luck.

Bottom line is...we don't know what we would do. I do not condone the looting and stealing, I do appreciate those store owners out of a desire to do good to open their stores up for people to get the necessities, and people looted and ruined it for everyone else. I do have a problem with the looters in that. But damn...if I was caught in that situation with my five kids, I would appreciate the store owners that would do that and if I had not already prepared, would have gotten only what I needed.

If you read this far, congratulations, I think I've got leftover mardi gras beads to pass out...but now, they're priceless to me. This is a sad day for New Orleans and it's surrounding areas and I can't stop crying and I rarely cry anymore.

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 09:19 AM
And just how does stealing a TV or jewelry assist in survival?
You use them as trade goods to get the things you need to survive.

Under the circumstances, I don't think anyone there is taking checks or Visa. I can't believe people just don't get it. Right now, they have no normal economy! Trade, no doubt, is the economy! You better darned well have SOMETHING to bargin with in those kinds of circumstances!

When your home is gone, your food is distroyed, you have no water or sanitation, no way to wash your clothes after they have been contaminated by Goddess only knows what filth, no medicine.....you take whatever you can that will help you get what you need! That includes anything that you can use to trade for what you need!

After food, water and medicine, those people who stole clean clothes were the smart ones! They can, at least, get a little bit clean and ward off disease. And, yes, a whole shopping cart full was smart. It isn't like they can wash them! Pretty soon, a clean pair of pants is going to be worth a hell of a lot.

Now, that doesn't take a whole lot of thinking, does it?

~~~~
Lewen, I am so sorry!

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 09:55 AM
You use them as trade goods to get the things you need to survive.

Under the circumstances, I don't think anyone there is taking checks or Visa. I can't believe people just don't get it. Right now, they have no normal economy! Trade, no doubt, is the economy! You better darned well have SOMETHING to bargin with in those kinds of circumstances!

When your home is gone, your food is distroyed, you have no water or sanitation, no way to wash your clothes after they have been contaminated by Goddess only knows what filth, no medicine.....you take whatever you can that will help you get what you need! That includes anything that you can use to trade for what you need!

After food, water and medicine, those people who stole clean clothes were the smart ones! They can, at least, get a little bit clean and ward off disease. And, yes, a whole shopping cart full was smart. It isn't like they can wash them!

Now, that doesn't take a whole lot of thinking, does it?

~~~~
Lewen, I am so sorry!

I can't imagine that in an area with no economy and no power, rampant flooding and people searching for food, that anyone would be willing to trade away the food they do have for a TV that's nothing but a burden to their survival. But then, no one said these people were smart.

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 09:58 AM
well i guess when you have no clean water and no food and your kids are crying because their tummies hurt because they have no food and they are cold,sick and scared a parent will do what they have to do..
i agree that stealing is wrong but sometimes there are mitigating circumstances to a persons actions.. its not always so absolute..
none of it can be sold now because its water damaged so it is lost anyway and if it can be put to good use instead of being wasted it should be used.. jewelry etc being looted is a completely different issue..

those of us who aren't there and aren't going without and aren't going to have to sleep on the cold hard floor of an evac centre shouldn't sit in judgement and shouldn't take a holier then thou attitude towards the people who took things essential to survival, they are just doing what they feel in their desperation they need to do for their families and more then likely wouldn't do under normal circumstances..
I'm human, in a crisis i will do anything i have to, to make sure my family has what they need to survive.. IMO 95% of people would do the same and the other 5% are just lying about it.. family comes first..

and as for those who don't have enough insurance well they won't be covered if their stock is looted or not so from that stand point its a non issue

It just makes the recovery that much harder. In ten years, we'll hear the poor of New Orleans complaining that there aren't any small stores in the area and there's no where to work. And they'll be right. If I were a business owner watching this, it would convince me to stay out of New Orleans.

Interesting that the people of New Orleans feel the desparate need to loot electronics and jewelry, but the people of New York didn't during 9-11. Or the people of Pensacola and Milton, FL after Dennis.

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 10:04 AM
Who was starving or without the resources to stay alive for more than a day after 9-11 except maybe those who were trapped? People who are trapped can't loot, for gosh sake.

And, I don't think those other hurricanes caused comparable situations. People are now trapped inside NO with no way to get out and no way for relief to get in!

You do get it that NO is under water, don't you? Maybe, the youngest and strongest could, possibly, wade out after a few days if they made it past the water moccasins, submerged boards with rusty nails and other debris in the water. But, otherwise, they are trapped like rats.

Such comparisons are nonsense.

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 10:21 AM
Who was starving or without the resources to stay alive for more than a day after 9-11 except maybe those who were trapped? People who are trapped can't loot, for gosh sake.

And, I don't think those other hurricanes caused comparable situations. People are now trapped inside NO with no way to get out and no way for relief to get in!

You do get it that NO is under water, don't you? Maybe, the youngest and strongest could, possibly, wade out after a few days if they made it past the water moccasins, submerged boards with rusty nails and other debris in the water. But, otherwise, they are trapped like rats.

Such comparisons are nonsense.

Rats struggling to stay afloat under the weight of their ill-gotten booty.

Justify it any way you like, but stealing a TV is just as wrong after a hurricane as it is before one.

DragonsChest
September 1st, 2005, 10:23 AM
Rats struggling to stay afloat under the weight of their ill-gotten booty.

Justify it any way you like, but stealing a TV is just as wrong after a hurricane as it is before one.

Some people just aren't going to get it.

Mjollnir
September 1st, 2005, 10:29 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/ts_nm/weather_katrina_dc (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/ts_nm/weather_katrina_dc)

And now these scumbags are shooting at the very choppers trying to rescue and help them.

DragonsChest
September 1st, 2005, 10:35 AM
Idiots should be culled from the gene pool. Perhaps this is nature's way of identifying them for us, and now we can go on rescueing those who really deserve it.

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 10:39 AM
I have to admit the ones doing the shooting at rescuers are sick in the head. The general populace should get them under control by any means possible even if it means shooting them in the back.

They must have just snapped.

I am sure that those on the edge of mental breakdown before have gone over the edge and are acting out, now.

misty
September 1st, 2005, 10:40 AM
Idiots should be culled from the gene pool. Perhaps this is nature's way of identifying them for us, and now we can go on rescueing those who really deserve it.


In other words, Natural Selection? I tend to agree.....

materra
September 1st, 2005, 11:03 AM
Well the gene pool will thin because in about 5 to 10 days depending on where they have been wading and what they wore at the time, and what they waded in... they'll be ill. Very, very ill. The water is toxic. the infectious agents and germs soaks through your pores, under nails, splashed into your eyes and mouth. You die without medical help and you may anyway if you get help. And the disease will spread further. These folks are wading in open sewers and chemical dumps. Who knows what these combinations will do to people years from now.

I pity those in the Katrina Zone, all of them, regardless. I also don't know what I would be driven to do if I was there. I know I would do what I could to survive, to help any family and friends survive. Who's to say. I am not there, my reasons would be my own.

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 11:26 AM
Blessings on those poor trapped people.

Soon, they will also have to deal with people who under go severe mental break down along with all their other problems.

Yes, it will be a winnowing. Unfortunately, I think the meanest and most agressive will be the survivors.

But, that is usually the way when nature winnows.

I hope the ones with more intelligence have already survived because they figured out a way and were intelligent enough to evacuate when called.

SilentDreams
September 1st, 2005, 12:15 PM
Thats not even the worst of it. Just today I've heard reports of rape and murder inside that stadium in LA. Its just horrible how everything is turning out. As for stealing, like Kay said earlier, I have no problem with essentials being taken. If my family and I are starving and bleeding food and medical supplies will make it too us whichever way they have to. But silly things like jewelry and countless other worthless things are wrong to take.

indebted
September 1st, 2005, 02:25 PM
well i guess when you have no clean water and no food and your kids are crying because their tummies hurt because they have no food and they are cold,sick and scared a parent will do what they have to do..
i agree that stealing is wrong but sometimes there are mitigating circumstances to a persons actions.. its not always so absolute..
none of it can be sold now because its water damaged so it is lost anyway and if it can be put to good use instead of being wasted it should be used.. jewelry etc being looted is a completely different issue..

those of us who aren't there and aren't going without and aren't going to have to sleep on the cold hard floor of an evac centre shouldn't sit in judgement and shouldn't take a holier then thou attitude towards the people who took things essential to survival, they are just doing what they feel in their desperation they need to do for their families and more then likely wouldn't do under normal circumstances..
I'm human, in a crisis i will do anything i have to, to make sure my family has what they need to survive.. IMO 95% of people would do the same and the other 5% are just lying about it.. family comes first..

and as for those who don't have enough insurance well they won't be covered if their stock is looted or not so from that stand point its a non issue


I have been there...starving and my children hungry...I still did not impeach my integrity and teach my children that it is okay to steal.

As for the insurance issue...you don't understand insurance. There are riders for all kinds of things. Acts of God coverage in that area are very expensive, but available. Coverage for looting is hard to get - it is generally covered under acts of war - which is not covered at all. What is the difference? One is covered and one is not. At least if they had some insurance, they could get reimbursement for the damaged items. However, now that every insurance adjuster in the country has seen what really happened...their coverage is meaningless. Not because of weather, but rather because of the uncaring acts of fools who did not even try to get out or to shelters before the storm.

These criminals have proven they could have gotten around and out...so I have no sympathies for them. Martial Law allows the officers to shoot...so do so.

indebted
September 1st, 2005, 02:27 PM
Soon, they will also have to deal with people who under go severe mental break down along with all their other problems.

Yes, it will be a winnowing. Unfortunately, I think the meanest and most agressive will be the survivors.

But, that is usually the way when nature winnows.

I hope the ones with more intelligence have already survived because they figured out a way and were intelligent enough to evacuate when called.

Well, I agree with part of this...unbelievable I know...but miracles happen.

I don't agree that any higher power will protect those who have been stealing, though.........and no, I don't think taking supplies from a store that opened its doors for that purpose is stealing, but rather accepting the charity of others. Breaking in and taking what you want...that is stealing.

indebted
September 1st, 2005, 02:29 PM
Well the gene pool will thin because in about 5 to 10 days depending on where they have been wading and what they wore at the time, and what they waded in... they'll be ill. Very, very ill. The water is toxic. the infectious agents and germs soaks through your pores, under nails, splashed into your eyes and mouth. You die without medical help and you may anyway if you get help. And the disease will spread further. These folks are wading in open sewers and chemical dumps. Who knows what these combinations will do to people years from now.

I pity those in the Katrina Zone, all of them, regardless. I also don't know what I would be driven to do if I was there. I know I would do what I could to survive, to help any family and friends survive. Who's to say. I am not there, my reasons would be my own.


Another means of natural selection...and a karmic return.

indebted
September 1st, 2005, 02:34 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/ts_nm/weather_katrina_dc (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/ts_nm/weather_katrina_dc)

And now these scumbags are shooting at the very choppers trying to rescue and help them.

So, then, shoot back. Cull out the cretins and get on with the recovery.

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 02:44 PM
Now, I am starting to think it is a race thing. Almost every person in distesss shown in the news is black.

Seems to me that by now they could have had massive airplane lifts and parashuted food and supplies into the area which would certainly cut down on the looting.

indebted
September 1st, 2005, 02:45 PM
Now I am starting to think it is a race thing. Almost every person shown in the news is black.

Seems to me that by now they could have had massive airplane lifts and parashooted food and supplies into the area which would certainly cut down on the looting.

If they weren't SHOT on the way down by these MORONS you have been defending

wolf
September 1st, 2005, 02:45 PM
And yeah, I might get a weapon for protection (not necessarily a gun, because those are too unpredictable... probably a good sized knife)

Guns are very predictable.

Especially if you want to accomplish two things ... eat and protect your safety.

Do not expect people to act with the veneer of courtesy to which you are accustomed.

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 02:50 PM
If they weren't SHOT on the way down by these MORONS you have been defendingWell, you see, it is like this. An airdrop is way high in the sky. It has to be for the parashutes to have enough time to open. There would be no danger to the people doing an air drop.

And, if they shot at the supplies, which I doubt they would, there would be too many for them to do much damage to them plus they would have to be pretty good shots to hit the droping packages.

Now, what was your problem with air drops to get supplies to people, again?

Oh, I remember. You think they are unworthy.

wolf
September 1st, 2005, 02:55 PM
Well, you see, it is like this. An airdrop is way high in the sky. It has to be for the parashutes to have enough time to open. There would be no danger to people doing an air drop.

Actually, there is plenty of danger to people in an airdrop, both on the ground and in the air.

One of the problems here is that there isn't enough ground. a two ton pallet doesn't land on a dime ... if it were to fall into water, the supplies are ruined. If there is no distribution system, chaos reigns ... the supplies get kept by a small few "warlords" and distributed at their whim.

Order has to be established by the authorities before any kind of supplies are brought in.

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 02:57 PM
Obviously, they couldn't drop two ton packages of supplies. They would have to be many, many smaller packages.

I am not against establishing order. I think it will be a whole lot easier to do if the panic is addressed first. Supplies would help stop the panic.

Bomb them with Ramen and small envelopes of powdered milk! Parachute in 10,000 six packs of water!

That is a joke but it is simi-serrious.

wolf
September 1st, 2005, 03:05 PM
Supplies will change the character of the panic, not stop it.

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 03:09 PM
That is an interesting response. In what way do you think it would change the situation?

SSanf
September 1st, 2005, 03:13 PM
OK, well, you all solve it. I will be gone a few days and I am turning off the computer now. CYA when I get back.

Lewen
September 1st, 2005, 03:52 PM
Now, I am starting to think it is a race thing. Almost every person in distesss shown in the news is black.

Seems to me that by now they could have had massive airplane lifts and parashuted food and supplies into the area which would certainly cut down on the looting.
It isn't a race thing...nearly every person that lives in New Orleans is black. Being black has nothing to do with it.

WokeUpDead
September 1st, 2005, 04:20 PM
Let's have somebody burn down our cities and see how we react. I'm sure it wouldn't be much different.

RhiannynWildseed
September 1st, 2005, 04:42 PM
These people didn't really know that the storm would be that bad

I'm sorry, but I have to say something about this statement.

What part of "CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE" didn't they understand?! They were saying 2-3 days in ADVANCE that the storm would be "that bad." At the least it would still be a Cat. 4, and that is still winds in excess of 140-150mph winds. I'm sorry, not knowing the storm is going to be that bad is not a reasonable defense.

Too old, too poor...maybe.

Not knowing how bad it would be before deciding to stay......STUPID!

wolf
September 1st, 2005, 05:26 PM
That is an interesting response. In what way do you think it would change the situation?

With the current level of lawlessness there are already problems. People are in a mindset that they can take what they need, and the strongest are the ones that end up with the supplies. If "food drops" start occuring without other systems of order being put in place, the control of resources will be in the hands of folks with selfish motives, rather than distributed equitably by the authorities.

Lewen
September 1st, 2005, 05:29 PM
With the current level of lawlessness there are already problems. People are in a mindset that they can take what they need, and the strongest are the ones that end up with the supplies. If "food drops" start occuring without other systems of order being put in place, the control of resources will be in the hands of folks with selfish motives, rather than distributed equitably by the authorities.

Not only that, those of the lawless ones with guns will shoot anyone that even remotely grabs for the food and water. It's survival of the fittest and right now, those lawless ones are looking out for #1, themselves. That's what I'm afraid of...the looters with the guns that RUINED IT for those that desparately and legally need help.

wolf
September 1st, 2005, 05:30 PM
Now, I am starting to think it is a race thing. Almost every person in distesss shown in the news is black.

It's a matter of demographics. I understand that 67% of the population of New Orleans is black.

Out of the total population of 1.4 Million people, about 80,000 refused to evacuate. That's actually not too bad ... only about 5% remained behind.

Getting 95% of ANY population ANYWHERE is a major task.

Ever try to pack a family of five into a minivan just to go to the movies or go on vacation? And that's when you want to go. Evacuation means that you and what you can carry may never see your house and belongings ever again.

Storm Moon
September 1st, 2005, 05:46 PM
I'm sorry, but I have to say something about this statement.

What part of "CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE" didn't they understand?! They were saying 2-3 days in ADVANCE that the storm would be "that bad." At the least it would still be a Cat. 4, and that is still winds in excess of 140-150mph winds. I'm sorry, not knowing the storm is going to be that bad is not a reasonable defense.

Too old, too poor...maybe.

Not knowing how bad it would be before deciding to stay......STUPID!


Good point, but could have said 'oh, it'll probably weaken by the time it gets here, or it may move further east of here, blah blah blah.' I've heard it all before. Yeah, it did weaken to a Category 4, but that's still devastating, as you just stated.

Storm Moon
September 1st, 2005, 05:47 PM
Let's have somebody burn down our cities and see how we react. I'm sure it wouldn't be much different.
AMEN! I don't think anything you can do could possibly prepare a person for such devastation.

RhiannynWildseed
September 1st, 2005, 05:52 PM
Good point, but could have said 'oh, it'll probably weaken by the time it gets here, or it may move further east of here, blah blah blah.' I've heard it all before. Yeah, it did weaken to a Category 4, but that's still devastating, as you just stated.

But since when do we rely on unpredictable Mother Nature?

Me, I live on the Eastern Seaboard, barely 20 miles inland. We had Hurricane Isabel smack us pretty good, but it was only 70 mph winds. Still, the house (see: mobile home, lol) rocked, and I was nervous. We were without power for 9 hours while barely 1/4 mile up the road never lost power. No one ever said that we should have found shelter, and really, we didn't need it, but had they said find a safer place to go, I would have left in a heartbeat.

Mistress_Ravenshadow
September 1st, 2005, 07:30 PM
It just makes the recovery that much harder. In ten years, we'll hear the poor of New Orleans complaining that there aren't any small stores in the area and there's no where to work. And they'll be right. If I were a business owner watching this, it would convince me to stay out of New Orleans.

Interesting that the people of New Orleans feel the desparate need to loot electronics and jewelry, but the people of New York didn't during 9-11. Or the people of Pensacola and Milton, FL after Dennis.

i think you need to stop, get off your soap box and actually read what others are saying.. i NEVER once said it was ok to steal tv's or jewelry.. the things in the stores are water damaged so it can't be sold so the damage is already done..if they don't have the insurance to cover the loss from storm damage how is the stuff being looted going to make it worse.. its not covered in the first place..meds can't be sold once they have been damaged by water food can't be sold after they have been damaged by water and if everyone who is stuck there dies then once they get back and get cleaned up and open for business they won't have customers to buy stuff and then they will complain about that..
let me put it to another way maybe then you will understand or at least be able to put yourself in their shoes..
just say you and your pregnant wife have been caught in a situation just like this.. your wife while trying to get to safety cuts her leg on some rusty wire and has had to wade through contaminated water.. you get to safety but you wife is now at risk of infection which puts both her and your baby in danger she is also wet, cold and hungry all things putting her life and you babies life in danger what would you do? take the high moral ground and not go and get her the things she needs to help ward off infection.. are you going to get her the food she needs to give her the strength to fight off the infection and to give your baby the nutrients it needs or are you going to do nothing and watch her die.. which is the moral thing to do? watch the people you love die or steal a few things for survival..
I know what i would do..
and indebted until you become god don't judge others and don't preach your crap to me.. i don't care for your 2 negative karma touches and i don't care for your warped sense of morality.. i hope one day for your loved ones sake you are never in this position because obviously based on your constant holier then thou preaching you would be quite happy to sit and watch your family suffer and possibly die so you can say "I DIDN'T STEAL' I'll say to you publicly what i said to you in private ENJOY YOUR LUXURY WHILE OTHERS STRUGGLE TO SURVIVE..
maybe you targeted me for your preaching because i have said things you know are true and you just don't want to admit that you are human and would do exactly the same thing for your family if push came to shove and it make you feel uncomfortable..
anyone who would rather watch their family die or suffer then to go take what they need is IMO the lowest form of scum on the face of the earth..

all the GODS that post on this thread are condemning is humans because we are imperfect and would do what ever we had to to make sure our families had what they needed.. *sniff sniff* I'm getting a complex, i feel so second rate because i am not as moral as them because i wouldn't sit and watch my family die so i could say I'm not a thief.. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm such scum.. I don't deserve to breathe the same air as the moral gods of perfection who sit in their nice SAFE homes, with their 3 square meals a day, their fresh water and their tv's and computers and medications.. oh why did I dare sympathize and ever agree with the actions of those with NOTHING for doing what they had to do to survive.. I am such a bad bad person.. lock me up!!!!! throw away they keys!!!!!!! i should not be allowed to be a part of society..
PPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

I've said my piece and i think the mods should close this thread because it is as productive and thrashing a dead horse..

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 08:01 PM
i think you need to stop, get off your soap box and actually read what others are saying.. i NEVER once said it was ok to steal tv's or jewelry.. the things in the stores are water damaged so it can't be sold so the damage is already done..if they don't have the insurance to cover the loss from storm damage how is the stuff being looted going to make it worse.. its not covered in the first place..meds can't be sold once they have been damaged by water food can't be sold after they have been damaged by water and if everyone who is stuck there dies then once they get back and get cleaned up and open for business they won't have customers to buy stuff and then they will complain about that..
let me put it to another way maybe then you will understand or at least be able to put yourself in their shoes..
just say you and your pregnant wife have been caught in a situation just like this.. your wife while trying to get to safety cuts her leg on some rusty wire and has had to wade through contaminated water.. you get to safety but you wife is now at risk of infection which puts both her and your baby in danger she is also wet, cold and hungry all things putting her life and you babies life in danger what would you do? take the high moral ground and not go and get her the things she needs to help ward off infection.. are you going to get her the food she needs to give her the strength to fight off the infection and to give your baby the nutrients it needs or are you going to do nothing and watch her die.. which is the moral thing to do? watch the people you love die or steal a few things for survival..
I know what i would do..
and indebted until you become god don't judge others and don't preach your crap to me.. i don't care for your 2 negative karma touches and i don't care for your warped sense of morality.. i hope one day for your loved ones sake you are never in this position because obviously based on your constant holier then thou preaching you would be quite happy to sit and watch your family suffer and possibly die so you can say "I DIDN'T STEAL' I'll say to you publicly what i said to you in private ENJOY YOUR LUXURY WHILE OTHERS STRUGGLE TO SURVIVE..
maybe you targeted me for your preaching because i have said things you know are true and you just don't want to admit that you are human and would do exactly the same thing for your family if push came to shove and it make you feel uncomfortable..
anyone who would rather watch their family die or suffer then to go take what they need is IMO the lowest form of scum on the face of the earth..

all the GODS that post on this thread are condemning is humans because we are imperfect and would do what ever we had to to make sure our families had what they needed.. *sniff sniff* I'm getting a complex, i feel so second rate because i am not as moral as them because i wouldn't sit and watch my family die so i could say I'm not a thief.. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm such scum.. I don't deserve to breathe the same air as the moral gods of perfection who sit in their nice SAFE homes, with their 3 square meals a day, their fresh water and their tv's and computers and medications.. oh why did I dare sympathize and ever agree with the actions of those with NOTHING for doing what they had to do to survive.. I am such a bad bad person.. lock me up!!!!! throw away they keys!!!!!!! i should not be allowed to be a part of society..
PPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

I've said my piece and i think the mods should close this thread because it is as productive and thrashing a dead horse..

What would I do in this situation? Well, for starters, I would have evaced when I was told to. Secondly, I certainly wouldn't be taking pot-shots at cops and National Guard troops trying to rescue people. I certainly wouldn't be breaking into jewelry stores or hauling out electronics.

Maybe it isn't a majority of the people, but there are looters here who are genuinely bad people. There are people raping others, taking whatever they can get their hands on, and shooting at the people trying to rescue them. You can't tell me any of this behavior is driven by a desire to survive. I hope the National Guard is given orders to start returning fire. I don't think it's right, but I can see the argument for looting. Shooting at cops and soldiers trying to help, however, proves that these folks aren't looting for survival...they're looting for the loot.

pawnman
September 1st, 2005, 08:04 PM
That is an interesting response. In what way do you think it would change the situation?

Remember "Black Hawk Down"? Remember the Blackhawks being shot at as they tried to drop supplies to the starving folks in Somalia? It's already happening.

indebted
September 1st, 2005, 08:15 PM
and indebted until you become god don't judge others and don't preach your crap to me.. i don't care for your 2 negative karma touches and i don't care for your warped sense of morality.. i hope one day for your loved ones sake you are never in this position because obviously based on your constant holier then thou preaching you would be quite happy to sit and watch your family suffer and possibly die so you can say "I DIDN'T STEAL' I'll say to you publicly what i said to you in private ENJOY YOUR LUXURY WHILE OTHERS STRUGGLE TO SURVIVE..
maybe you targeted me for your preaching because i have said things you know are true and you just don't want to admit that you are human and would do exactly the same thing for your family if push came to shove and it make you feel uncomfortable..
anyone who would rather watch their family die or suffer then to go take what they need is IMO the lowest form of scum on the face of the earth..

all the GODS that post on this thread are condemning is humans because we are imperfect and would do what ever we had to to make sure our families had what they needed.. *sniff sniff* I'm getting a complex, i feel so second rate because i am not as moral as them because i wouldn't sit and watch my family die so i could say I'm not a thief.. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm such scum.. I don't deserve to breathe the same air as the moral gods of perfection who sit in their nice SAFE homes, with their 3 square meals a day, their fresh water and their tv's and computers and medications.. oh why did I dare sympathize and ever agree with the actions of those with NOTHING for doing what they had to do to survive.. I am such a bad bad person.. lock me up!!!!! throw away they keys!!!!!!! i should not be allowed to be a part of society..
PPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

I've said my piece and i think the mods should close this thread because it is as productive and thrashing a dead horse..

Let's get one thing straight. I HAVE BEEN THERE!!!! I did not breach my integrity and I was rewarded by my God for it. My family was kept safe and sound. Had I chosen to go another path, I cannot say it would be the same.

As for what I would have done.....First, I would have evacuated! That is what any smart person would have done.

If I did not have the means to leave the city.....I would have packed my household up and been hoofin' it to the SuperDome. DUH!

I think you should pack your socialist drivel up and move on...you don't like what is being said here, so find another thread where you can preach lawlessness all you want.

Storm Moon
September 1st, 2005, 08:17 PM
But since when do we rely on unpredictable Mother Nature?

Me, I live on the Eastern Seaboard, barely 20 miles inland. We had Hurricane Isabel smack us pretty good, but it was only 70 mph winds. Still, the house (see: mobile home, lol) rocked, and I was nervous. We were without power for 9 hours while barely 1/4 mile up the road never lost power. No one ever said that we should have found shelter, and really, we didn't need it, but had they said find a safer place to go, I would have left in a heartbeat.

Since when did I say ever we relied on it? I live in Kentucky so I don't have to worry about hurricanes.

Storm Moon
September 1st, 2005, 08:19 PM
Let's get one thing straight. I HAVE BEEN THERE!!!! I did not breach my integrity and I was rewarded by my God for it. My family was kept safe and sound. Had I chosen to go another path, I cannot say it would be the same.

As for what I would have done.....First, I would have evacuated! That is what any smart person would have done.

If I did not have the means to leave the city.....I would have packed my household up and been hoofin' it to the SuperDome. DUH!

I think you should pack your socialist drivel up and move on...you don't like what is being said here, so find another thread where you can preach lawlessness all you want.

No more than you're preaching being all holier-than-though. Sure you've been there, but remember this...NOT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN!!!!! So stop shoving your morals in other people's faces!!!

indebted
September 1st, 2005, 08:22 PM
No more than you're preaching being all holier-than-though. Sure you've been there, but remember this...NOT EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN!!!!! So stop shoving your morals in other people's faces!!!

It is wrong...it will still be wrong when NO is rebuilt, or whatever they will do. Bad juju for supporting criminals.

Storm Moon
September 1st, 2005, 08:23 PM
HAHA. You screwed up :rollingla And I got good karma because of it. Thanks :D

It may still be wrong to you, and I hate to break it to ya, the law's not doing anything about people taking some of this stuff (I'm talking about food, medicine, diapers, bear essentials, not TV's jewelry, watches, stereos, and why bother? Most of the electronics are ruined anyway.) They already agreed to it, which was said a few pages back incase you didn't read, or ignored it. Hell, even the cops are looting to survive. Ya wanna give me bad karma, go right ahead, given you can actually do it right LOL. No skin off my fat ass.

StormwolfAvatar
September 1st, 2005, 08:37 PM
Guys, guys...

I'm likely to get burned for this, but I'm going to do it anyway. It's fine if you disagree, but stuff like this should stick to PM's. I can't speak for everyone else, but it's not exactly encouraging to read about this when we're discussing the fates of tragedy survivors. Sure, we can agree/disagree on the methods, but let's keep it respectful.

It is a pity that the looting has reached such a level that it draws the law enforcement away from its original duties to take care of that. The best I think any of us can do is stop deciding who's right or wrong and just pray (or whatever equivalent fits your personal preference best) for two things:

1.) Strength and endurance for the aid workers in WHATEVER capacity--this has to be doing more than just wearing them down physically, and some may walk away from this with cases of depression. I realize that many are trained to be fairly resistant to that sort of thing, but it DOES happen.

2.) The light of understanding and a calm for the survivors still in town.

I suppose I should add a third, to be completely fair--the speedy exodus of aforementioned survivors, so they may find new places to live, and (if applicable) get a new start on their lives. I'm sure many are ready to do just that.

Please, feel free to disagree. Even feel free to knock me some negative karma--it's a forum, karma is just a number to me. What matters are the people involved.

Just my two cents.

In all respect,
SWA

Isil Darkmoon
September 1st, 2005, 08:40 PM
ADMIN MODE:

This is going downhill, very, very fast.

Stick to teh subject and leave off personal attacks on one another, or this thread will be closed.

Storm Moon
September 1st, 2005, 08:42 PM
You're right Stormwolf. I completely agree. I just get so sick of people thinking they're better than others, that's all. Believe me, if I were stranded and had nowhere to go, had no money, walking in polluted water, was starving, and had a kid to feed (I don't, but still) I would not hesitate to do whatever I must to survive. That's all I'm saying. And to any of those that decided to attack me in my PM or Karma comments, you are now on ignore.

Madame De La Mort
September 1st, 2005, 08:55 PM
Okay I know that I am just some 15 year old chick but people chill. This thread was made to calmly talk about looting in New Orleans as well as the looting in the shelters. We all have our own points of view but please don't forget about respect when you are trying to voice your point of view. I have been in the shelters and I have seen the tragedy first hand. I have been affected by this on a personal level. Some of you have this high and mighty view of stealing and I know that I my self has frowned at the thought of it but if push comes to shove and my or my family's life depends on me stealing food I would not think about it. In desperate times primal instant takes over.OKay that is all I have to say.

Ninjakitten
September 1st, 2005, 08:55 PM
Guys, guys...

I'm likely to get burned for this, but I'm going to do it anyway. It's fine if you disagree, but stuff like this should stick to PM's. I can't speak for everyone else, but it's not exactly encouraging to read about this when we're discussing the fates of tragedy survivors. Sure, we can agree/disagree on the methods, but let's keep it respectful.

It is a pity that the looting has reached such a level that it draws the law enforcement away from its original duties to take care of that. The best I think any of us can do is stop deciding who's right or wrong and just pray (or whatever equivalent fits your personal preference best) for two things:

1.) Strength and endurance for the aid workers in WHATEVER capacity--this has to be doing more than just wearing them down physically, and some may walk away from this with cases of depression. I realize that many are trained to be fairly resistant to that sort of thing, but it DOES happen.

2.) The light of understanding and a calm for the survivors still in town.

I suppose I should add a third, to be completely fair--the speedy exodus of aforementioned survivors, so they may find new places to live, and (if applicable) get a new start on their lives. I'm sure many are ready to do just that.

Please, feel free to disagree. Even feel free to knock me some negative karma--it's a forum, karma is just a number to me. What matters are the people involved.

Just my two cents.

In all respect,
SWA


You're right, SWA, and to everyone else who mentioned we should refocus our energies. Many of you have made some really good points, both sides, in my opinion. Please, can we stop this and refocus our energies. I'm not usually mushy or a bleeding heart moderate, but I think with the prayers and energies we have at our disposal, we can do some good, however little it will help in such a big catastrophe.

Xander67
September 1st, 2005, 08:58 PM
as I stated in another thread, The National Guard and the 1st Army MP's will be rolling into town over night, and they will contine to flow in troops untill they are told there are enough... so I dont think we will see much looting after tonight... they have makeshift holding centers to temporarily house anyone they arrest.

Mistress_Ravenshadow
September 1st, 2005, 10:48 PM
What would I do in this situation? Well, for starters, I would have evaced when I was told to. Secondly, I certainly wouldn't be taking pot-shots at cops and National Guard troops trying to rescue people. I certainly wouldn't be breaking into jewelry stores or hauling out electronics.

Maybe it isn't a majority of the people, but there are looters here who are genuinely bad people. There are people raping others, taking whatever they can get their hands on, and shooting at the people trying to rescue them. You can't tell me any of this behavior is driven by a desire to survive. I hope the National Guard is given orders to start returning fire. I don't think it's right, but I can see the argument for looting. Shooting at cops and soldiers trying to help, however, proves that these folks aren't looting for survival...they're looting for the loot.

i never said any of that stuff was ok.. i said i would take food meds and blankets for survival and yet still i get attacked/condemned/judged etc..which is now why i will defend myself from the crap being slung at me..until that happened i was quite happy to add my little bit and move on .. had i said yea i'll help myself to a few diamond rings, watches, necklaces, a new sound system, tv, some designer clothes and shoes and crap like that i could have understood the judgement/condemnation i received..

what it has escalated to now is wrong.. and from what i have heard not everyone could evac and some people have gone through hurricanes and successfully rode it out so they decided to stay.. how were they to know the levee's would break and it would end up this bad....it has been said on the news here it is the worst one in history..
there are some no doubt that only stayed so that they could loot and they deserve everything they get but for those who are genuinely stranded why should any of us group them in with the bad apples and pass blanket condemnation on them..
with all the rapes and violence now going on i can understand why people are looting guns and ammo.. it doesn't make it right too loot such things but i can understand why it has happened
this is what i have tried to say, there are other factors at play, when you are in danger or at risk, there are more imminent matters to deal with.. you do what you must and if you survive, wrestle with your conscience then.. i never said take whatever you want..there is a big difference..

so just to make it simple and clear for those who wish to crucify me or attack me while giving me negative karma..
looting tv's etc= bad
raping people, shooting cops etc = bad
looting food, nappies, water, meds = bad but justifiable/understandable under the current circumstances, under normal circumstances =bad

i can live with my choices, i can live with my morality, and i can be brutally honest with myself and i know my flaws..I don't promote lawlessness but i wont sit idly by and watch my family die under ANY circumstances..I won't stand by and take unwarranted attacks publicly or privately especially from someone that up until today i had alot of respect and admiration for..I will stand my ground..i don't need to be saved from myself and i am quite happy with who i am so no one need waste their energy trying to change me..
i am done.. there is nothing more to say here that hasn't already been said and misread 100 times over..

pawnman
September 2nd, 2005, 07:35 AM
I heard some interesting speculation on the news yesterday. The news anchor suggested the people doing the looting stayed behind specifically because they knew they could loot in the wake of the storm. The looters certainly seem to be fully capable of physically walking.

I think now we're finally seeing the true colors of the looters. They aren't out for survival, they're out for a quick buck. That's why they're resisting evacuation so strenously. And shooting at National Guard? Then complaining about the leack of supplies? Patently absurd. Here's a clue: if you quit shooting at the people trying to help you, maybe the rescue effort will go a little more smoothly.

Amazing...I never thought Americans would degenerate into total anarchy they way the people of New Orleans have.

Teresa
September 2nd, 2005, 09:26 AM
I heard some interesting speculation on the news yesterday. The news anchor suggested the people doing the looting stayed behind specifically because they knew they could loot in the wake of the storm. The looters certainly seem to be fully capable of physically walking.

I think now we're finally seeing the true colors of the looters. They aren't out for survival, they're out for a quick buck. That's why they're resisting evacuation so strenously. And shooting at National Guard? Then complaining about the leack of supplies? Patently absurd. Here's a clue: if you quit shooting at the people trying to help you, maybe the rescue effort will go a little more smoothly.

Amazing...I never thought Americans would degenerate into total anarchy they way the people of New Orleans have.
I hope You bare in mind that You can not group everyone left there into this category! Those Looters are a MINORITY! I would tend to agree that maybe some did stay behind with alterior motives.The Majority I DO NOT believe stayed behind for those reasons and are not doing this!Those looters are just a few bad apples like anywhere else!We all have some bad apples,you can not judge everyone by them!

pawnman
September 2nd, 2005, 09:57 AM
I hope You bare in mind that You can not group everyone left there into this category! Those Looters are a MINORITY! I would tend to agree that maybe some did stay behind with alterior motives.The Majority I DO NOT believe stayed behind for those reasons and are not doing this!Those looters are just a few bad apples like anywhere else!We all have some bad apples,you can not judge everyone by them!

I know, and I understand that. I know that most of the people there are just trying to get out now. But the ones who are shooting at police and soldiers who are coming to evacuate them...I think we can draw some pretty good conclusions about their motives.

RhiannynWildseed
September 2nd, 2005, 12:10 PM
I heard some interesting speculation on the news yesterday. The news anchor suggested the people doing the looting stayed behind specifically because they knew they could loot in the wake of the storm. The looters certainly seem to be fully capable of physically walking.


Hmm, you were watching Sheppard Smith on FoxNews weren't cha? :D LOL. I saw the same report. Sheppard never said that all those looting stayed behind so that they could, only that he was sure that SOME did stay behind because they foresaw that opportunity. And certainly that is the truth. What they don't realize, those that stole the guns, jewelry, whatever (or they just haven't thought that far), is that most, if not all of this stuff is recorded by serial number somewhere. Maybe the stores they stole it from have lost all their paperwork, but the manufacturers and all, I believe, still have records of these numbers and what stores this stuff was shipped to. And I honestly don't believe that a pawn broker in any area close to any of these cities is going to be taking any jewelry or guns anytime soon. Well....at least I hope not.


Since when did I say ever we relied on it? I live in Kentucky so I don't have to worry about hurricanes.

Never said you did. I just asked an obvious question that doesn't even require an answer. We CAN'T trust Mother Nature. You never know what she's going to pull out of her bag of tricks.

Storm Moon
September 2nd, 2005, 04:31 PM
True. We can predict weather but to a certain extent. Oh btw, here's an article from a guy on BeliefNet. I got there a lot and he has quite a bit to say about looting to survive.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/174/story_17422_1.html (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/174/story_17422_1.html)

WokeUpDead
September 2nd, 2005, 10:09 PM
Amazing...I never thought Americans would degenerate into total anarchy they way the people of New Orleans have.

It's human nature and the last time I checked most Americans were humans.

la tortuga
September 2nd, 2005, 10:12 PM
I heard on the news that the people in New Orleans are looting expensive things from stores in order to barter for food/drink/clothing.

DragonsChest
September 2nd, 2005, 10:13 PM
It's human nature and the last time I checked most Americans were humans.

You're probably right, about it being human nature, but I just hoped for so much more from us, you know? I wanted us to be better. *sigh*

SilverMaiden
September 2nd, 2005, 10:18 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9131493/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9131493/)

Almost makes you not want to help these people.


I'd help anyway. Yeah there will be some people getting their rocks off on the power, we have those now in power. The desperation to live and protect the lives of others is something I understand.

9-2-2
September 3rd, 2005, 01:16 AM
I have never put the "sacred" law before the welfare of myself and my loved ones. If we're starving, I'll throw a chair through the windows of an abandoned home if it means we have a safer place to stay than the streets. I'll raid a department store if it means we stay warm and dry with fresh blankets and clothing. I'll steal weapons if it means keeping the gangs off my doorstep. I'll drag the wheelbarrel to the grocery store if it means keeping ourselves fed.

If there are rescue workers readily available, I'd hurl my family onto those trucks and helicopters if it means our escape from the chaos.

I have been touched by situations in life that required drastic measures to survive. There are situations in life where one has to choose morals, honor, pride, and being a good upstanding citizen, or choose to live and to think on your feet. Base human nature isn't about being good and civil, as was unkindly displayed by those insane gang members. If I lived in that quarantine, I'd do whatever I had to in order to keep myself and my family alive.

Survival in a dangerous environment isn't about righteousness, morals, being upstanding, or being honorable. Survival is about doing what you have to in order to live, plain and simple.

Sometimes that involves breaking a few rules, big and small. For me, human life will always come before the law.

9-2-2
September 3rd, 2005, 01:17 AM
You're probably right, about it being human nature, but I just hoped for so much more from us, you know? I wanted us to be better. *sigh*

I stopped getting my hopes up about this place quite a few months ago.

Illiandra
September 3rd, 2005, 01:59 AM
It's human nature and the last time I checked most Americans were humans.

Even though we are humans we still have the choice to make on what we do. There comes a time when it is no longer about survival, (other than the obvious) where do you draw the line. do we keep making excuses for the few idiots going to far to the point that they get away with anything, or do we draw that line alittle bit closer to reality and do something about it. They have pushed it so far they are not only indangering the rescue workers, and the other people desperate to be rescued, but themselves.

When does this become a discussion about brutal stupidity and not just a justification for doing something so fundamentally wrong that all we can do is shake our heads and ask why it got this far. Too many people are dying per hour because help couldn't get there ( due to the gov. of NO dropping the ball) and the violent degenerates.

Stop making excused about human nature/or race/or that they should have evacuated. Some things are just obvious. We all know that a great number of people did, and those that didn't hopefully didn't because they couldn't. None of that excused the Raping, beating and theft (not looting) of stupid items like electrnics that wont work or float, jewrly that doesn't belong to them, and guns to protect themselves from the cops and humanitarion helpers. ( violence begets violence, you cant help someone shooting at you and most likely wouldn't want to)

This is not about human nature to survive. this is past that point and beyond to human greed and stupidity.

(that statement is not for the 25000 or so people that obviously , and smartly want to just get the heck out of there)

WokeUpDead
September 5th, 2005, 12:33 AM
I seem to be getting a lot of negative karma in this thread.

BlackMagicalCat
September 5th, 2005, 02:37 AM
What we are seeing is human nature,and it is dark,people are evil,and the history of man has been a cruel one.

But among the wicked,lives the just,and the kind,and the brave,and the righteous,and the good hearted.

We will all give an acount of how we treated others,and the things we have spoken and done,both good and bad.Not all resort to evil when tested or faced with disaster,for some it is a moment to shine.

In the darkest hour,a light can shine and pierce the blackest night.

Dear Lord,help me to be among the kind hearted,and the righteous,amen.

This is what I think.

Storm Moon
September 5th, 2005, 04:53 PM
Where there is anger, let there be calm.
Where the is despair, let hope reign.
Where there is frustration, give us patience.

DragonsChest
September 5th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Where there is anger, let there be calm.
Where the is despair, let hope reign.
Where there is frustration, give us patience.

That's beautiful, Storm Moon, thank you! :uhhuhuh:

David19
September 6th, 2005, 02:54 PM
What we are seeing is human nature,and it is dark,people are evil,and the history of man has been a cruel one.

But among the wicked,lives the just,and the kind,and the brave,and the righteous,and the good hearted.

We will all give an acount of how we treated others,and the things we have spoken and done,both good and bad.Not all resort to evil when tested or faced with disaster,for some it is a moment to shine.

In the darkest hour,a light can shine and pierce the blackest night.

Dear Lord,help me to be among the kind hearted,and the righteous,amen.

This is what I think.


I agree with you because what humans are naturally greedy, powerhungry, cruel and evil - that's what makes us different from animals, and maybe in a perfect world looting wouldn't happen, they have lost everything, maybe even family so that's all they can do. Probably me and most people on this board would be doing the same thing if we lost all family and homes plus they might as well take what's left otherwise it'll just be wrecked. Anyway like i said their just being human and humans are natural killers, i don't believe that humans are naturally good and evil is the byproduct or whatever, human nature is natuarally cruel although i do believe there is good in most people (i'll stop now before it gets too philosiphical (sp) ) :)

WokeUpDead
September 6th, 2005, 03:47 PM
I agree with you because what humans are naturally greedy, powerhungry, cruel and evil - that's what makes us different from animals

Animals have all those. My cat fights other cats over food even though they have their own food and so does he. They also fight over who gets to walk around on the front lawns. Humans fight over money, food, land, and power just like they do.
Unlike most animals, we have the ability to control those feelings and urges. When everything we've put in place to keep us under control disappears, then some people well let their animal instincts run free.

Storm Moon
September 6th, 2005, 04:12 PM
Oh I agree there, WUD. One of my cats in particular growl and hiss if one of the other cats get near her food.

Cacaoatl
September 8th, 2005, 06:26 PM
Until one is faced with a similar situation I believe it is impossible to say for certain how one one would actually react. It is unfortunate that disasters often bring out the worst in people.

StarCraftLia
September 9th, 2005, 08:23 AM
Hehe.. I got bad karma for saying looting is okay. :)

Well here's how I figure it.. The stores are insured, it's not like the owner or sales people are going to go wading into the disease-filled water to go searching for their in-store goods, pick up the soaking things, and attempt to selling them again.

StarCraftLia
September 22nd, 2005, 09:42 AM
a

wolf
September 22nd, 2005, 11:57 AM
If the cops shoot them now, I'm not paying for their medical care later.

Cyzarine
September 22nd, 2005, 12:08 PM
This might sound like what others wrote here but I will say from my point of view that looting for diapers, some clothing (like an extra pair of clothes to change into or clothing for your children), food and water is fine by me. Yet looting tv's and cd's, etc...where are you going to plug the stuff in and what are you going to do with the other stuff if your home is wrecked? You can't plug a tv into the water...

We all know that after something like this happenes looting occurs and that is sad. I don't know if it was said on this thread but people where coming into NO on boats and looting. People from other areas not hit as bad where coming in and being criminals. That is the sadest part. Yet, I can say that looting should not be a higher priority they saving lives. Businesses can take a write off of lost or damaged goods, human life cannot.