NO refugees--crates of bibles???

[Briana]

Okay...don't you think water, food, clothing, etc. should come before crates of bibles!!! Check this out from the New York Times article:

On the receiving end in Houston, though, the Astrodome looked at times like a squatters' camp in a war-torn country. The refugees from Louisiana, many dirty and hungry, wandered about aimlessly, checking bulletin boards for information about their relatives, queuing up for supplies and pay phones, mobbing Red Cross volunteers to obtain free T-shirts. Many found some conditions similar to those that they left behind at the Superdome, like clogged toilets and foul restrooms.

But in Houston, there were hot showers, crates of Bibles and stacks of pizzas, while in New Orleans, many refugees scrounged for diapers, water and basic survival.

No offense to Christians out there, but I don't consider crates of bibles in the top priority there! Oh...I am on a rant today :rant:

Briana

[Meadhbh]

Well, you could burnt the papper for warmth I guess. Get enough of them and have yourself a bonfire.

[LacyRoze]

There are some who are going to turn to their faith and their bible for comfort, not all, certainly, but some....

[Shanti]

Its not a top priority but for many people in a Christian dominate society, find comfort in the bible. Many lives can endure with faith in their hands. I may not be Christian but living around them all my life, I have seen the bible as a rock, a foundation, to lean on. It really does make a difference for Christians who take the bible to heart.

The article says they bibles were next to pizzas!!!

[phoenixblayze]

yeah, instead of crates if bibles, how about more crates of food
arg

[Tom Bombadil]

Okay...don't you think water, food, clothing, etc. should come before crates of bibles!!! Check this out from the New York Times article:

No offense to Christians out there, but I don't consider crates of bibles in the top priority there! Oh...I am on a rant today :rant:

Briana

Well, if they've already got the food, clothing and etc taken care of, why not Bibles? I doubt it was hard work to round up crates of Bibles. Some organizations have stockpiles of them. I'm sure there's quite a few people from New Orleans who'd love to read a Bible after they've had a hot shower and a pizza. Not much else to do, anyway.

[Penthesilea]

Its not a top priority but for many people in a Christian dominate society, find comfort in the bible. Many lives can endure with faith in their hands. I may not be Christian but living around them all my life, I have seen the bible as a rock, a foundation, to lean on. It really does make a difference for Christians who take the bible to heart.

The article says they bibles were next to pizzas!!!Reading the story of Job would probably bring comfort to believing Christians right about now......

[dragoncrone]

Maybe somebody will bring them a newspaper and they can read about the wacka-nut whose Fundamental Christian group claims that Katrina is God's punishment to New Orleans for hosting gay events...

[WitchJezebel]

There are some who are going to turn to their faith and their bible for comfort, not all, certainly, but some....


My sentiments exactly!

[Storm Moon]

Maybe somebody will bring them a newspaper and they can read about the wacka-nut whose Fundamental Christian group claims that Katrina is God's punishment to New Orleans for hosting gay events...

Don't tell me. Pat Robertson?

[enchancea]

Maybe somebody will bring them a newspaper and they can read about the wacka-nut whose Fundamental Christian group claims that Katrina is God's punishment to New Orleans for hosting gay events...
Exactly. I cant believe they even felt the need to deliver crates of bibles, those crates could have been used for more food and water. You can rely on your faith without having to have all those books delivered.

[RowanMegaera]

Don't tell me. Pat Robertson?

I'm betting its our favorite Kansan nutcase... Phelps.

Yup! Just looked it up, his website is thanking god for Katrina and it's efforts to wipe out that den of iniquity or some other such garbage.

[LacyRoze]

I don't see where anyone is being forced to take a bible and it's not simply about faith. The bible is also a source of comfort to many when times are tough. I know mine has certainly helped me while I'm waiting on word of my sister.

[DixieWitch]

Maybe somebody will bring them a newspaper and they can read about the wacka-nut whose Fundamental Christian group claims that Katrina is God's punishment to New Orleans for hosting gay events...

why am I not surprised that they actually said that? :wtf:

[Storm Moon]

True but I see this is their golden opportunity to try and convert people, which is ironic because most in that area are already Christians.

[Shanti]

Gees....they didnt bring bibles 'instead' of food. So what if some org or church brought bibles.

Spiritual comfort is something that can help....period.
Bibles are spitiual comfort for some.

If I was there and just finished munching my pizza...The bibles were by a stack of pizzas!!!!!!!!!!, and I saw some mala beads left for who ever wants one, I would smile and feel better. That would be nice.
Its the same for the bibles..a nice offering for anyone that wants it.

[Storm Moon]

I'm betting its our favorite Kansan nutcase... Phelps.

Yup! Just looked it up, his website is thanking god for Katrina and it's efforts to wipe out that den of iniquity or some other such garbage.

:rotfl: Oh yeah I forgot about him. Sheesh he should be in the nearest looney bin. :bastard:

[Isil Darkmoon]

But in Houston, there were hot showers, crates of Bibles and stacks of pizzas, while in New Orleans, many refugees scrounged for diapers, water and basic survival.

WTF? This is apples to oranges, people.

Bibles are NOT being AIRDROPPED into disaster zones!

They're being OFFERED to those that want them in a safe, dry, removed location.

The people offering the bibles are volunteer ground crew three states away. Food and water drops in NO are being handled by the U.S. government and military.

Nothing these volunteers could do would get necessities to those in danger any quicker--save send money through one of the major humanitarian networks, which they are doing. They can't touch what's happening in NO, no matter how much they'd like to. So they're doing the best they can to tend to the needs--physical, emotional, and spiritual--of the survivers that have already been removed from danger.

Nearly all of the organised relief effort at the Astrodome proper (that's not through FEMA) in Houston is through its area churches. It's the churches, as a group, that are stepping up to the plate and bringing in load after load of supplies, cooking meals for thousands of people, and sharing their time and their hands. I don't see how it's strange they'd also make available something else they've turned to themselves in times of needing comfort.

[~Anamorata~]

:rotfl: Oh yeah I forgot about him. Sheesh he should be in the nearest looney bin. :bastard:

I second that motion! :durrrr:

[MoonDust]

why not? some people thought to offer comfort in the best way they knew how. A spiritual hug if you will. So we're not Christian and there are probably people there who aren't either. If you were in danger would you not center your energy and try to gather strength from your faith/path?

Same diff.

[SilentDreams]

It may not be one of the first items pagans would think of but if we were in that situation and brought candles or areas for temporary alters would we not be grateful? Some christians use the bible as a "rock" of support. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. With everyone mentally breaking down I think its good to try and give them some way to keep it together. Maybe it'll be something to take their mind off this at times. And its not like they didn't give food and water, they gave those things too. So its not like nessecary items are being pushed out of the way for the bibles.

[Flar's Freyja]

There are some who are going to turn to their faith and their bible for comfort, not all, certainly, but some....

Absolutely, and to some of the very devout a Bible is very important. If you've ever read "The Way of a Pilgrim," there's a scene where the main character, who travels the countryside in search of spirituality with nothing but a backpack, gets beaten and robbed and mourns only the loss of his Bible. I'd been pagan for some years when I read it, but it almost made me cry.

I don't like the underlying agenda of proselytizing but some Christian groups honestly believe that it's the right thing to do. The money would be better spent on food and water.

[Teresa]

From what I read it says they have Pizzas and drinks and that there are Bibles there for whomever wishes.During major disasters many people seek spirituality! I know I have been in those shoes.It is a kind gesture just as much as the crates of dry Tee Shirts and the food.There will be grief counselors there too at most of these shelters and Believe me many people do and will ask for a Bible.Having gone thru something like this I have seen the requests first hand.They will also have some toys for the children usually stuffed animals to help ease them as well.

[Kyan's Daddy]

No offense to Christians out there, but I don't consider crates of bibles in the top priority there! Oh...I am on a rant today :rant:

Briana

Couldn't agree with you more. Clothes, food, water, toiletries. Bibles? Completely unnecessary.

[Isil Darkmoon]

I don't like the underlying agenda of proselytizing but some Christian groups honestly believe that it's the right thing to do. The money would be better spent on food and water.

Houston has been so overwhelmed by donations of money and supplies that food and water have not been in anything resembling short supply in the Astrodome/Reliant complex.

The responses have been so generous that many of these area churches that are taking in monetary donations are sending the money right to the Red Cross because they're meeting their goals in physical supplies donated, alone, so they're sending the monetary aid over to the areas still in danger.

Even if this money was used by these groups to buy food, and water, it would be useless. Distribution in NO is being handled by the military. Humanitarian groups, volunteers wanting to distribute supplies, etc, are being turned AWAY because it is still too dangerous, too chaotic. What supplies are coming are going to have to come from the government, the military, and major orginizations like the Red Cross, or not at all.

Also, the money for these bibles has LONG since been spent. It couldnt' be reallotted if they tried. The bibles have been brought in by local, area churches and organizations. They're from the church's extra storage (always have a few crates on hand to replace bibles that get teethed on by babies or colored on by youngsters or simply worn out from use in the sanctuary)--they're from the stores of food pantries run by churches, ones that always keep bibles on hand as an option for those who want them--and they're left over from our OWN last major disaster, Allison

While not as severe as Katrina, many people lost everything in their houses, all their belongings, homes destroyed, and displaced for months--and many of them turned to their own church families for comfort, and many of them ASKED, specifically, about acquiring bibles to have while they were displaced. Bibles were ordered then as well, and there still have been some to spare.

Why, I ask you, if, in a state three away from the disaster zone, the needs of shelter, food, water, clothing, and supplies of the evacuees are being met, is adding in something that's of no current cost or effort and may be of great help to some, the wrong thing to do?

[Yvonne Belisle]

When your entire world and way of life is upside down you seek something stable in it. For many that is religion. Faith any faith can bring people through events that someone without faith to anchor them just won't do as well during. Faith for many is a nessesity and many people in that situation are going to look at the aid coming in the way of food and shelter from strangers and smile and say God provided. I know because I have seen it in other situations for them the bible is simply a confirmation that life will return to normal and that they and their loved ones will be ok.

[SilverMaiden]

In times of horrible need and one's humanity is tested, one can see who utterly fails to rise to the occasion.

[sol]

While I am not Christian this is an overwhelmingly Christian nation and bibles are no more out of place here than say, crates of Korans would be in an emergency shelter if a natural catastrophe were to hit Saudi Arabia. For the vast majority of the refugees the bibles will provide needed comfort.

[9-2-2]

I consider crates of food and goods to be of a higher priority than a crate of books about domination, control, bloodshed, sexism, and repression.

[LadyCelt]

I would be trying to find one. And, if I had one that I had with me when evacuating, I would carry it almost like a baby!!!!!

Maybe its partly superstition too. But, I find great strength and comfort in the Bible.

[redring]

I love that insurence comercial...... I would rather see a crate of teady bears for the kids, or aldults. :) Just cant relate I guess. To each there own.

[Tom Bombadil]

I admit it...I'd find more comfort in a teddy bear. :D And then I'd be glad there were bibles nearby to keep people away from my teddy bear!

[redring]

Lol!! :)

[PaganLibrarian]

Don't tell me. Pat Robertson?

Actually, it is more likely to be Fred Phelps and his band of merry lunatics. As far as Pat Robertson, his people have been hip deep in relief efforts. No doubt the crates of bibles have been from them, as they are very involved in the Houston efforts. If they were sending bibles in place of food, water, and clothes, I would be upset. I have no problem with crates of bibles in addition to food, water, and clothing.

[Isil Darkmoon]

Actually, it is more likely to be Fred Phelps and his band of merry lunatics. As far as Pat Robertson, his people have been hip deep in relief efforts. No doubt the crates of bibles have been from them, as they are very involved in the Houston efforts. If they were sending bibles in place of food, water, and clothes, I would be upset. I have no problem with crates of bibles in addition to food, water, and clothing.

PL, it's neither, thankfully. The bibles have been provided by various local churches who are putting in a lot of volunteer man-hours in the Astrodome/Reliant complex. Phelps and Robertson frighten me, but this I have no issue at all with.

[PaganLibrarian]

I don't care for Robertson, but his group has been doing a lot of relief work. I can give credit where credit is due.

[Isil Darkmoon]

I don't care for Robertson, but his group has been doing a lot of relief work. I can give credit where credit is due.

Fair enough :) In this case, tho, the bibles were resources the local churches had already in their posession (partly left over from Tropical Storm Allison a few years ago, in fact) and neither time nor money were spent by any group to go out of the way to import them.

[Briana]

Why, I ask you, if, in a state three away from the disaster zone, the needs of shelter, food, water, clothing, and supplies of the evacuees are being met, is adding in something that's of no current cost or effort and may be of great help to some, the wrong thing to do?
The article did not mention that all the above were already taken care of (and people are queueing up for the short supply of Red Cross t-shirts). ...those of us away from these areas don't (or didn't have this information). And if its not taking away (man hours, security, etc.) from providing all of the survival needs, then that is fine. I understand that many people take solice in the bible...and there are many Christians in that area. (And Storm Moon...yes, I did think about them doing it to get converts...because I've seen it happen...but I didn't mention it because its such a horrifying thought).

My mom is Christian, and when I told her about the article, she said she didn't need the bible to find solace...but I do have friends that 'don't leave home without'.

Blessings,
Briana

[Zibblsnrt]

Okay, I'm gonna join the chorus of heretics and say that the idea doesn't bother me at all, for several reasons.

The first, and most obvious, one is that nobody is being forced to take these things; any conversion attempts going on are minimal, even at the scores of churches and other religious institutions across the United States currently doing their part in this mess.

The second is one that a lot of people are missing. A lot of people are dismissing this on the I Wouldn't Want One So They Won't Appreciate It Either argument, or the Christians Should Want Food And Water Before Spiritual Fulfilment argument. Both are profoundly false and betray a surprising lack of empathy for people of that faith, something I generally expect from the pagan community but am always disappointed to see.

The fact of the matter is, there are thousands of people who probably would want to have one of these at hand, precisely because they consider that to be more important than mere trifles like their lives. Keep in mind that, at its heart, Christianity (and, to a lesser extent, the other two Abrahamics) is a pretty ascetic religion, one in which the physical troubles of this life, up to and including leaving it, simply aren't as big a priority if the other side of things is even slightly at risk. Devout Christians fear damnation, not death, and in their mind mere physical actions will do absolutely nothing to prevent the former.

Many people here do not share that attitude, or think it's somewhere between deluded and evil. Y'know what? I could care less what said people think, because the people who these books are going to appreciate and, yes, even need them. So what if you disagree? It's not you these are going to.

Like I said, get some empathy for a change and discover that not everybody shares the standard range of beliefs on MW. Maybe then people won't get offended at the existence of actions being taken for beliefs other than your own.

Another, more psychological and less spiritual reason for stuff like this providing at least some sort of benefit: when you're reduced to refugee status, carrying naught but the clothes on your back, maybe your previous meal, and you're cooped up in an evacuation center, a bus on the way to Houston, or whatnot, there's a decent chance that you're going to have nothing to do other than live in your own head with the memories of the previous week's apocalypse. I'm sure there's plenty for people to do while waiting for some kind of settlement, especially if they have a useful talent (first aid training, for instance), but a lot of people are going to have nothing to do but stare into the middle distance and be alone with their thoughts, especially if they're alone.

If someone can do little more than sit, wait, and maybe relive the previous week (or, worse, relive the thousand little could-have-dones which wouldn't-have-done but would instead ratchet up the survivor's guilt a little more each time), having something else to do or take their mind off things, allow their conscious to focus on something while their unconscious works on processing what it's seen... that's not simply escapism, it's a physical necessity, something nearly as medically useful as insulin to a diabetic. Were I, geeky, irreligious academic that I am, in that kind of situation with little else to do, I probably wouldn't mind having one of the things on hand just because it's reading material. Hell, it's even interesting reading material; nobody's saying you have to believe every word of something to get some enjoyment out of it. Hell, I read Herodotus recreationally.

So there's a stack of ink-stained dead trees down there someplace which (A) isn't being forced on anybody, (B) would provide spiritual solace to a whole lot of people, thus providing some religious first aid and (C) would allow people an opportunity to briefly focus on something other than The Grinding Horror for awhile, thus providing some psychological first aid.

So is there a real problem? Or is this another excuse for people to get their anti-Christian hatin' on?

I suspect the latter.

[Luckyd]

I second that motion! :durrrr:

And I'll 'third' your second _handclapp

[Eldric_Dragonsblood]

Something else that may have been a concideration (albeit a diffinate low end of the reasons) for bringing the Bibles to the AstroDome, was this:

Those Bibles were taking up storage crates/space which could be used for need supplies. By taking them, distributing them, the churches now have more boxes to carry needed supplies.

I know those Bibles were bought well before this disaster, or someone may have even donated them free of charge (I wouldn't have doubted that many of them came from the local Mormon temples which have hundreds of copies in their storerooms.)

I don't understand why people here of all places, at a site which welcomes and requires respect for all faiths, feels so strongly the distribution of Bibles is inappropriate. If someone had lost everything in all this, up to and even including immediate family, and they asked ME for a Bible; I would find them one, even if I had to dig into my wallet.

[Zibblsnrt]

Those Bibles were taking up storage crates/space which could be used for need supplies. By taking them, distributing them, the churches now have more boxes to carry needed supplies.

Yeah, there's things like that to keep in mind, too. Crates and pallets are tools at any time, and during nastier times can become construction materials or medical equipment.

It's highly tangential, but Stuff of any kind can be useful in this sort of situation. I hadn't thought of that, myself.

[Jenne]

I think I'll just stick with the hope that they were given to comfort those in time of need rather than for some prosyletizing efforts. And even so, the seeds that fall may find root where they are needed most.

That being said, it doesn't really bother me, especially since now people have a way to occupy themselves (reading material, oragami and other crafting material, journaling, etc.) via the Bibles given out. Nothing like too much time and grief on your hands to make for a dangerous mob situation...

[9-2-2]

You know, Zibblsnrt, you make a pretty damn good point. I had never seriously thought of it from that viewpoint before. I work at Royal Caribbean, and a woman called who was going on a cruise out of Miami. She called to ask about a cancellation, because her family that she was taking and herself are from N.O., but she was the only person who got out alive. Her elderly mother and 11 yr. old daughter are still in N.O. as far as she knew, and she was going out of her mind with worry not knowing if they were still alive. The conversation moved me so much that I teared up a little bit on the phone... not very professional, but at that time, I didn't give a damn. So I told her what to do about her cruise situation, and spent a while consoling her on the phone.

Thinking things through a second time, while I don't like Christianity, you do make a very strong and valid point that I end up agreeing with. Necessity does not just include clothing, food, and water... it also includes sanity and peace of mind. I wonder how that woman is doing in the Astro-dome, all alone without her mother and daughter - the only two people left in her family - and no one to talk to, day after day wondering if they're alive or dead, and not knowing about either.