What to do about fakers?

[Pele_Oak]

Ever been crusen' the web and come across a fake witch/pagean elder? I know I have.

I was just wondering if I was the only one who has noticed.

I am not saying that one tradition is better than another, what I am talking about are people whom the more you talk with the more your convienced they are just ignorant and can't possably be what they say they are.

Example 2000 year old Fam Trad that is using a published piece of material you know was written by D.V. but claim it is old like 1645 old or elders who act all surprised about a basic Craft learning exercise they just found on the web. The examples are numerous....I was just wondering if anyone else had noticed.

B*B Pele

[Myst]

Yup. I just ignore them. No sense in getting your energy entangled in that of someone who is obviously a liar and a negative person at all.

[Lavender]

Me too. I just roll my eyes & go somewhere else. It's just not on the web. You run into them in person too. They can say whatever they want. I mean, they're entitled to their opinion just like anyone else. But you don't have to believe them either.

[Pele_Oak]

Generally I ignore 'em too...but how are newbies on the web or in person suppose to weed through these folks? ...I've met them in person too.

To me they seem to want their egos stroked, and some are definetly trying to ride rough shot over boards and real communities. Some pretend to belong to trads they think will get people to listen to them or they think will get the most awe or respect. It concerns me because alot of 'em are setting witch against witch. Some are also definetly not teaching what they claim they are and ultimently their students suffer when they leave that elder.

I've noticed that these elders often change their trad/training in communities. I guess they figure no one will notice if last week they were Guardnerian and now they are Heridatory or Strega ect the next week. They usually try setting the "ecclectic" (usually people new to the craft not established ecclectic trads) witches against the "trad" witches; I've noticed this on the web and in the real world. If they want to make up thier own trad and be honest about it I'd be cool with it...but most just lie and slander anyone whom asks too many questions.

I am just wondering I guess how big of a problem is it?

[Myst]

I don't think it's much of a problem for anyone but the person who's lying. Most people will see right through them and not spend time with them, those who do maybe need in this life to learn how to better separate fact from crap and will. These people will get their own karmic kickback in due time, so as long as you don't implicate yourself in it I don't really see too much of a problem. You could try educating confused people too, but then you have to watch your own karma.

[yemayasdaughter]

The Frosts are a prime example of fakers, imho

[Old Witch]

;) Leave them alone. Eventually, they will "fake" themselves out.;)

[talamh]

Ultimately, "fakers" are teachers... although it can be a hard lesson... but one we each need to learn. bb talamh

[seawitch]

to watch people look like dorks. acting like they are something they are not. there was a guy on another board i used to go to they finally blocked him after enough people got sick of him.
i mostly thought he was an idiot and closed minded, but still it was fun to watch

[Xander67]

sometimes, if you "humor" them, then they see just how much responsibilty comes with being an elder, and tossing them trick questions tends to open thier eyes too...

eventually, they see that they , like even some of the wisest will tell you that there are NO true elders, everyone has alot to learn

true wisdom is deep within your own self,

truth is different from one person to the next...

[xjsjaglvr]

I hate to think of how many Arch-Druids and such I have come across. This has been a particularly bothersome problem in my own paths community. Some time ago a group calling itself The Enchanted Druid Order (Odor?) got started. The "Arch-Druid" had a major bio on the groups web page. It included the fact that he had a Doctorate Degree from a certain university. Well as my pal Twig can attest to I did a little research into the "university" it was a porn site that offered bogus degrees to impress folks. After presenting the evidence and after others started questioning things like this guys age etc, the web site changed the bio and then the Yahoo club they used went unlisted. They wern't the first and I am sure won't be the last.
Jag

[Sequoia]

uhg I know this girl at my school, who thinks she's this high-and-mighty, goddess-chosen, SOMETHING or other. . . High Priestess. . . . and she sure as heck belives it, and her friends belive it. . .but the way she acts is WAY to childish at times to make me think she could possibly be such. She's rude, has no patience, thinks she knows everything there is, is incredibly condescending. . .and expects immediate and utter respect and awe and stuff. . . *sighs* I just am NOT into it. I'm not gonna kiss her boots, especially when she hasn't given me any reason to respect her any more than other people. . . AND on top of that she's given me several reasons to loose respect for her!

She may or may not be a high priestess. . . but WHATEVER it is she's a high priestess of. . . -_-; oi. Some people aren't much, but will toot their horn for every single second of it. And that's what annoys me.

[yemayasdaughter]

Puma.... she sounds like a ( and this is my FAVOURITE quote from Buffy: The Vampire Slayer) Blessed Wanna Be!!!!

But, whatever makes her feel in touch with the Gods and Goddesses... whatever!

[Twilight Garden]

"Faker's" are most definately out there. Especially on the internet. Take everything with a grain of salt. I agree with seawitch, it's kinda funny to listen to those that act all high and mighty. I enjoy down to earth people anyway. I don't care who you are, when you act all like an idiot, I laugh.

[HerbGurl]

I know this is an odd question but who are the Frosts? I have never heard of them. Who are they?
Blessings,
HerbGurl

[Aengus McTeague]

Gavin and Yvonne Frost. They have published a number of books on Wicca. I don't know that I'd call them "fakers", they've been doing this for a LONG time, been a presence in the Craft for decades. I think their material is shallow and disjointed, but I feel the same way about Raven Silverwolf, Amber K., Pat Telesco, Edain Mcoy, and a number of others. But the Frosts are definitely legitimate HP and HPS of their tradition, so faker seems perjorative. Just not my cup of chai.

[Chaos Hawk]

I think fakers are out there but it's up to you if you are going to believe what they say or not.

[phoenixrising]

Far to many out there.. I think it was put perfectly "stoke their ego" these people want attention and respect that they don't get for any number of reasons in real life. I think its sad that these the most misguided are the ones that get tossed to the side.. but I find myself doing it too.. ignoring them, avoiding them, and finally calling them on their BS. We call them nutters.. and they are the reason I will never join an open coven again. I can't stand having to listen to someones BS and being all fluffy and politically correct by not telling them they are full of it. In the end I should just leave them alone.. if they are the high mighty all powerfull and (arn't they always special in someway??) of their little hill... well they can be the sad king of their own sad little hill for all I care.. just don't poison the minds of people that are looking to learn.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

To a certain degree were all fakers on this life path. Some of us knowingly aware that we are such while others have built up a complete social & mythos about themselves. Some fakers created by thier own actions others created by the implied action of others. Some fakers created from the implied authority the observers have placed upon or within them.

Yet the test of a faker is do they (he/she) provide us that which we are searching for at a given time? That thier truth maybe fantasy to us or their level of experience below what we assume they should possess does not in and of itself make them fakers. If they fulfill that need then they are not fakers, regardless of what we may later think of them or their teachings.

If knowledge be the degree upon which a faker is tested then who is to decide what is truth? My grandmothers truths were world tested against her times and found to be valid, yet those same truths fail when compared to my times. Did that then make her a faker? I think not, for her truths where relevant to her times and her understanding of those times.

That some claim a higher mantle than they have earned I agree with. That they are fakers I disagree with for it is not my place to decide if thier truths are real or fantasy. Their understanding and analysis of a situation makes it real and known to them based upon their truths, learnings and deductions.

In many ways its our own persception of what we think an elder should know or understand that makes them valid or faker to us. That a new understanding may rise does not invalidate thier previous knowledge or position.

We can chose to accept thier realitity and what it means to them or try and enforce ours upon them. If we accept them for what they are does not mean we have to incorporate that knowledge into our realility.

If we try to denounce them for fakers based upon our position then do not cry foul when another denounces you as a faker for not matching thier perspective. It is a dangerous path one treads when they cry faker.

To me many upon these boards could be seen as fakers for they have changed the groundwork of a path that was established years ago. Many have claimed a heritage that is not thiers or modified it to fit what they perceive a pathway to be. Are they fakers? The answer to that is driven by perspective of what I think each should be.

Fakers, no I think not. Different than my beliefs or opinions of what I think it should be, definately yes. Yet in the end it is up to me to decide what part they hold that maybe useful or truthful to my pathway but not for me to decide if they are fakers.

[phoenixrising]

Much like the specialist that recently went to jail for claiming to have earned the medal of honor when in fact he did not.. people that claim titles and accomplisments that they have not earned only serves to cheapen the accomplishments of others. I don't think any of us were talking about people that believe what they are saying.. we are talking about the ones crying for attention and obviously lying.. you can have your faith and your path and it can be anything you want.. but don't tell me your a Gardenarian3, Arch-Druid, or whatever if you havn't earned it. It makes others less likely to give due respect to those that have gone through the courses and taken the effort to earn their title.

[Kes]

AFAIC, most of the stuff out there is produced by fakers, even quite a number of the schools and books which get a lot of popularity and respect.

But, then again, pretty much the entire neopagan movement was started by a faker, right? After all, most of Gardner's allegedly history for his tradition was faked by somebody.

[Lupabitch]

AFAIC, most of the stuff out there is produced by fakers, even quite a number of the schools and books which get a lot of popularity and respect.

But, then again, pretty much the entire neopagan movement was started by a faker, right? After all, most of Gardner's allegedly history for his tradition was faked by somebody.

I would disagree with "most". Better scholarship is becoming more prevalent.

As for Gardner, yes, he could have been more forthright about his material. However, Gardner is only the forerunner of Wicca; I daresay there are plenty of non-Wiccans who would disagree with you saying we're fakers because he tried to tell a pretty story. What Gardner did has little relevance for nost non-Wiccan pagans. Reconstuctionists, for example, are exceptionally honest about their roots and practices. And most Wiccans these days admit that Wicca isn't 10,000 years old.

[phoenixrising]

Well "Wicca" is only as old as when Gardner created it.. me may have been less than honest about where it came from.. but we all admit that it started then and there.. not way back when.

[Lightning Strike]

*Quotes starship troopers movie line* Kill them! Kill them all!:hahugh:

[Kes]

However, Gardner is only the forerunner of Wicca; I daresay there are plenty of non-Wiccans who would disagree with you saying we're fakers because he tried to tell a pretty story. What Gardner did has little relevance for nost non-Wiccan pagans. Reconstuctionists, for example, are exceptionally honest about their roots and practices. And most Wiccans these days admit that Wicca isn't 10,000 years old.

I wasn't accusing anybody today of being a faker simply because they're neo-pagan (which would arguably exclude reconstructionists, anyway) or even Wiccan. I was simply pointing out that inflating credentials is a long-standing tradition of the neo-pagan movement. Since it was Gardner's works which really made the movement take-off (both Wiccan and non-Wiccan), I have no qualms about saying he "started" the movement, or at least that he was one of the most influential progenitors.

[Eternal Night]

I never fake......not unless the man's rubbish and i wanna get it over and done with

[phoenixrising]

Lmfao

[Rick]

Holy mother o' pearl!!! Talk about thread necromancy!!! :hehehehe:

[The Amityville Ghost]

"Fakers" are out there, all right...By my definition, a faker is a person who claims to be some Grand High Poobah Know-It-All who has their own personal phone line to the Gods (or whomever). Like a self-proclaimed "High Priest/ess" who claims to be the divine incarnation of a God or Goddess, and who further claims that he/she should be blindly followed based on this "authority." I've met one such person before, and I'll be lucky if I never meet them again.

[Autumn Angel Mardi]

How can you tell when someone is the real thing or a fake?

[Lupabitch]

I wasn't accusing anybody today of being a faker simply because they're neo-pagan (which would arguably exclude reconstructionists, anyway) or even Wiccan. I was simply pointing out that inflating credentials is a long-standing tradition of the neo-pagan movement. Since it was Gardner's works which really made the movement take-off (both Wiccan and non-Wiccan), I have no qualms about saying he "started" the movement, or at least that he was one of the most influential progenitors.

*nods* Okay, thank you for the clarification. I can agree with that.

[Zibblsnrt]

How can you tell when someone is the real thing or a fake?

Sometimes things are just demonstrably false.

If someone claims to have a doctorate and can't even produce or remember the name of the school they got it from, I'll assume they're a liar. If someone claims to have been Cleopatra and met Hatshepsut in the same past life (or can't tell me which Cleopatra, or which language they spoke), I'll assume they're a liar. If someone claims they're 1,500 years old or whatever and doesn't know basic facts about the twentieth century (nevermind the tenth), I'll .. you get the idea.

Some folks are better at it than others, but a lot of people who throw outlandish claims about don't have the ability to back up those claims. Burden of proof's on them, and if they can't handle it, I'm not going to sympathise with their claims.

[CeriseAmaranth]

Puma.... she sounds like a ( and this is my FAVOURITE quote from Buffy: The Vampire Slayer) Blessed Wanna Be!!!!


Yaaaaaaay Buffy! Wanna blessed bes...I love it. The rest of that quote is equally hilarious: "You know, nowadays every girl with a Henna tattoo and a spice rack thinks she's a sister to the dark ones." Must add to sig...:hahugh:

In other news, there are a lot of..."fakers"...out there. I personally find them irritating, but they typically get outed sooner or later.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I must admit I find this thread ironic and funny at the same time. I am 48 years old and many of the claims for identifying a faker or such are the same concepts used 20 years ago for the upcoming Pagans.

We called them charlatons for all those self proclaimed Wiccans who never went threw a formal initiation. All those people that cried they had found a new way and ours was wrong. We called them other names for those teenagers and newbies that were self proclaimed Holy men or Shamans and even witches. We laughed (collectively) as they hung Celtic, Greeco or Roman disclaimers on their path.

Many of us (Collectively) walked in the shadows and hung tightly to our hidden lore and knowledge. We challenged new comers to our path and tested them before they were allowed to enter. Our lips were sealed unless you where a part of our group. The fact you may have come from another family trad or coven didn't grant you immediate access.

It fact we probally would have called most of the people in this thread charlatons. Learning from a book with no formal coven or group. Saying you didn't need to be inducted into a coven or family trad as you used your own personal enlightenment to gain your understanding. Saying you never participated in a formal ritual but where experienced in ritual and guidance.

Newbies that new every answer to every question. Newbies that had read some gum wrapper and now where fully enlightened. Club houses formed in the fringes because they weren't allowed to come in and play with the big kids. Kids kicked out of the groups and family trads that created their own version so they could make thier rules and claim devine guidance in the development of it.

Persons held in high esteem in thier own mind. Groups founded upon the charsamatic nature of a dubious leader. Authors that gained in monetary influence but were ousted from established groups. Covens not created from hiving but because someone said "look this is what I am so follow me".

Now here it is again. Yesterdays charlatons calling todays newbies fakers as they try the same claims and defenses. Charlatans that claim a heritage to Wicca or other religons where they initiated themselves and rose to highpriest or priestess but never underwent a coven experience themselves.

Their are players on the field, their were before and thier will be again. Some will hang only as long as its the fadish thing to do, others until they grow bored with it. But some will grow into trully devote worshipers and may actually gain a legimate claim to highpriest or priestess.

But then again 20 years from now they will have a name for all the "Fakers" that rise on the horizion. Those that go in opposition to what the previous group held as a standard. In some ways even those from the generation before maybe seen as fakers for they are not following the current fad or trend. They will not possess the devine knowledge that the upstart has decided as the defining guage to judge a faker from a real pagan.

Perhaps the faker of tommorow will be the Buffy quoting person of today. Will they be the Charmed Ones or perhaps the Pratical Magic welding witches. Who can say for sure. But it can be assured that they will not be the 'Faker" of today for the identifer will change as it does for each generation.

[BlueMoon13]

How can you tell when someone is the real thing or a fake?

One way is to ask an innocent question or worse yet, correct something they said. If they respond with "How dare you question me?"....you do the math :fpraise:

[wolfjan1]

Fakers have been around since man tried to trade the first square "wheel," and they won't be going away anytime soon.
Mostly, wise people will speak to you normally, not declare their "royal" title. It did take me a while to figure some things out. I learned, however, that the more I seek natural solutions and talk to many people and READ, the better off my workings became. So, I promise, I will never proclaim myself the "Wisest of the solitary eclectics!"
Wouldn't that just be stupid?

[te Athrawes]

smile, laugh, and move on.

Those who you may feel are "fakers" may just be misguided, trying to find their way.

They may be con artists and out to hurt people.

They may just be really stupid.

If they will talk and learn with you stay, if not; just walk away and keep your eyes and ears open.

I am always wary of anyone who lays claim to generations of religous tradition. (as in 100s or more often 1000s of years - yeah - right!)
:yayah:

[Doodlebug]

There are definitely fakers out there. I try not to get myself worked up about it though.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

While I've met some fakers, and read a ton of authors who were composed entirely of B.S., I'm must more worried about, and have far more experience with, dumbasses and morons. As I do most of my work with an open temple community, we get asshats in spades. Fortunately we tend to notice them and call them on their B.S., although not usually in public. Quietly drawing them aside and explaining exactly what they did wrong would seem to do the trick.
That said, we did have to publicly call someone on their asshattery once and it was a very interesting occasion.

[PrincessKLS]

Yes, of course, there's a lot of people will fake anything. It doesn't mean anything if you don't believe it in your heart.

[Meadhbh]

Their are people out there that don't have any idea what their talking about. But its not just the pagans that have these people. Look at any other belief system and you'll see the same thing as we have. As long as there are people who are willing to believe them, and so long as people want enlightenment and ways to get there quicker they'll always been around.

[Autumn]

I've met them in spades! I ignore or fight shy of them. What I've noticed is that they tend to claim to be from fam-trads that devolve into either Native American practices or Appalachia. (meaning the fam trad's about six months old!)

True sages seldom run around trying to take charge. They also don't act like drama mongers turning people against each other for the sport of it.

[Xentor]

We all have to start out somewhere, and our ignorance makes us believe we know, even though it is through education we learn there is a lot more we know not. In that respect, all of us start out as fakers... or ignorants, or new-comers, or fluff-bunnies, or dilletants, or whatever name the older generation will imagine.

The important thing is to realise sometime along the way, that we can only know so much. Being an elder is only possible through experience, and still our experience is limited. Being a high priest of whatever trad or coven is only possible through hard work and commitment. It's a demanding job and not everyone is cut out for it. I'm pretty sure I'd do a bad job. My people skills aren't developed well enough yet.

So I agree with what others have said in this thread. Sometimes the signs are clear: yes you are being fooled. Sometimes the signs aren't clear and you'll learn... sometimes faster, sometimes slower. If you realise that someone is trying to fool you...

...ask yourself what their intent may be. Better yet: ask them, personally. (Chances are they don't like your questions.) Next, ask yourself whether you need them, or whether it is better for you to find a different elder to learn from. If you answer positively, make a note in your journal and move on.

[Toby Stimpson]

Honestly/// all you can do is wait.

I neverw as the well read, well spoken young Mysticwicker I am today. When I first started out in Wicca at 15, I tried to start my own coven and handed out invitations to join. I also new nothing at all apart from some snippets i found online. I made a few mistakes and eventually met people who forced me to change to read and actually learn stuff. What that stuff was is up for interpretation but it's all good.

I know several people now who have this complex of specialness, and wicca or witchcraft makes them feel powerful. They don't know anything at all and it's amusing to see... but I think patience and also not caring comes down to it. If something feels off to you, don't go there. I talk to quite a few people with obvious potential but also lack of anything... and half of them are learning and want to, others dont want to learn, and others are deluded. You will find that anywhere in any and possibly every situation. Just be who you are and do what you want or need to do and don't worry about it.

[Against The Tide]

Ever been crusen' the web and come across a fake witch/pagean elder? I know I have.

I was just wondering if I was the only one who has noticed.

I am not saying that one tradition is better than another, what I am talking about are people whom the more you talk with the more your convienced they are just ignorant and can't possably be what they say they are.

Example 2000 year old Fam Trad that is using a published piece of material you know was written by D.V. but claim it is old like 1645 old or elders who act all surprised about a basic Craft learning exercise they just found on the web. The examples are numerous....I was just wondering if anyone else had noticed.

B*B Pele

Call them on it. We like to say 'bullshit' here in the UK.

[thought_on_a_wind]

'Tis the reason I tend to stay solitary. I've seen it most anywhere I've looked.

I went into a pagan shop one day, the woman at the counter was supposedly an elder preistess of somfink or other. Really caustic, seemed to hate males, especially males in their twenties... like I am that guy that screwed her over half a century ago... I saw the same kind of judgemental hate I've seen time and again in southern baptists... She even had a back room to her shop that held all the "good stuff", she'd only let people enter as she deemed fit, and most likely- if you were a male- you'd not be worthy... the catch-22 is that if she was truly an "old soul" she wouldn't even condone such views of supremacy in the first place. Second: hers was a gaze of perception blinded by self-fulfilling ego and cloudy convictions. I mean, literally, I could see that stuff in her eyes (the feelings). I think the worst part about it was the correction in such an oh-so condescending tone of my pronunciation of the word Athame. I'd always been solitary up to that part because peeps in my area are just a hop-skip-and jump away from the burn the witch mentality, so there weren't many of us at all, and even less that were seriously studying the Art.

I'm firmly of the opinion that if someone is to become a good leader of peeps, they must first remember on a daily basis that they are human too, and that no two journeys are the same, of course it's an even better amenity if they make no reference to being 1xxx years old, as that just might say something about why they haven't progressed yet...

[thought_on_a_wind]

'Tis the reason I tend to stay solitary. I've seen it most anywhere I've looked.

I went into a pagan shop one day, the woman at the counter was supposedly an elder preistess of somfink or other. Really caustic, seemed to hate males, especially males in their twenties... like I am that guy that screwed her over half a century ago... I saw the same kind of judgemental hate I've seen time and again in southern baptists... She even had a back room to her shop that held all the "good stuff", she'd only let people enter as she deemed fit, and most likely- if you were a male- you'd not be worthy... the catch-22 is...

Come to think of it, maybe that's the reason I weigh all convictions (even my own) to see what makes sense... I never was too keen on others telling me what X book says about what is right when the true answer lies before my own eyes ripe for the interpretation and gleaning. This is not to say that I do not listen to advice, as advice, however ridiculous it might seem, is still worth listening to for the most part... and there are things that one can only glean from the eyes of another.

[BlueSage]

i always ask for proof in anything. if they can suceed in what they do i ask them to teach me this thing. then i always offer to teach something if they'd like.

[Happydeadkitty]

Thats why I stick to myself as well. Even when discussing things with other people I try to make it sound as simple and basic as I can so I never sound like I'm wiser or know more than anyone else. It seems like a competition with some others I've met, You get the "Oh I've done that, but....*insert how much better they are*"

That really has been one of my main reasons to not want to venture out.


HDK

[Jeremy Westenn]

Honestly call them out. These people misguide non Pagans just learning about something new and "spooky" and give them a skewered image of whats reality. They also deter newbies who don't know whats what down a blitheringly stupid path until they manage to get themselves out of it. Call them out, and you don't have to be nice about it but you don't have to be rotten about it either.

[Terra Mater]

Elder does not always mean wiser.

Lord and Lady are titles full of sound and fury and signifying nothing. You can buy a peerage title on the Internet after all.

[Skylah]

M.M.,
There'll always be fakers as long as there will be gullible people. My son has read tarot for 5 years now, me for 15, but his girllfriend always pays for a reading at every stand she passes, especially at the flea markets.... The readings are always vague thoughts that are soooo easy to have a good percentage of being right. We've pointed out compromises like offering to take her with us to psychic fairs and other places, but she says "they can't be right 'cause they're so much more expensive". (they're not really all that more expensive, but that's the excuse that Mary believes) We just shake our heads and think "as long as she's happy, and it's not harming her..." she's still our Mary and we love her.
Blessings,
-Skylah

[Blodwyn]

The saddest "elder fakers" are the ones who are only trying to fool themselves. They honestly believe their own tall tales.

I've known a few of these, and it's really very sad. They pull off all the credentials, they earned their so-called titles, even have followers who look to them for guidance. But for all intents and purposes, they are truly sick people who need serious psychological help. It's one thing to practice your faith, another to be completely devoid of common sense and any grasp on reality.

I've questioned my own spiritual path due to becoming entangled with people like this.

I now tread carefully around anyone claiming to be anything special. No one automatically deserves my respect. I assume they are faking until proven otherwise.

[Windsmith]

The saddest "elder fakers" are the ones who are only trying to fool themselves. They honestly believe their own tall tales.Agreed. There was a woman who'd been involved in my community for about 6 months. Someone in the class she was taking invited this person to her croning ritual. And after that one ritual, the woman honestly believed she got to call herself an elder in our community - just because she's the same age as the woman who had the croning ritual! That takes a big ol' hunk of self-delusion.

But there's an interesting question of the definition of "elder" here. In our tradition, there's a difference between someone who's "an elder" and someone who's "my elder." Essentially, you're only "an elder" after many years and many substantial contributions to the community and the tradition. But technically, anyone who's been in the tradition longer than I have is "my elder." So I'm my mother-in-law's elder, because I've been a Pagan for 7 years, and she's only been one for 2, and a 19-year-old young woman I met at Witch Camp last year is my elder, because she was raised in the tradition. It sometimes gets a bit sticky sorting out when someone is faking and when someone's elderhood depends entirely on perspective.

[MoonDragn]

This religion attracts the mentally unstable more than any other. So people don't always turn out to be who you think they are. You just take it with a grain of salt and move on. Its not about them, its about you. Its not important what they are, its only important what YOU are.

Everyone has something to teach you. Even crazy or deluded people.

[Rudas Starblaze]

yep, i believe theres loads of fakers out there. but then again, im also the type of person who doesnt care if someone really is an elder, HP, HPss, the bloody pope, the president, i dont care. if i dont like what a person says and i find them as an idiot, i write them off. i dont care if theyve wrote a million books and think theyre god. if what a person says doesnt make sense then i dont buy it. even if they are real.