What is the Pagan View on....

[Socharis]

...Evolution, and the beginning of the earth and universe?

Someone asked me today and I couldnt really answer them, all views welcome.

[Margie]

no one person can say "This is the Pagan view" on anything. All you can say is what YOU think. You're Pagan, that's your view. That's all you can speak for.

[gunner]

personally i go with the big bang theory but there are several creation myths that can explain it on an allegorical basis. i'd say have a look at them and choose the one that most closely suits your thinking about life, the world and your place in it.

[Sephiroth]

i personaly think that we all came from the goddess. and that when we die we go home to her. the universe i believe was created by something bigger than the god's and goddess's

[Socharis]

Originally posted by gunner
personally i go with the big bang theory but there are several creation myths that can explain it on an allegorical basis. i'd say have a look at them and choose the one that most closely suits your thinking about life, the world and your place in it.

Where can I get these Myths?

[flar7]

Under Mythology.
All the creation myths that I have studied (took classes)
have the same theme. around 4 stages. birth. life. death. rebirth.
They have these stated in lots of different ways but almost all are cyclic. African(which is very cool cause we could find no evil gods)
Native American, Greek, Hindu, Norse...etc etc.

They are great stories to read. And have great views on mankind.
Also they share a "Great Flood" in the past story. So perhaps the world was flooded in the past at some point in time.

Post back if you find any cool books or myths that you like.

Also the Gods and Goddesses forum could be of help.

[Socharis]

Originally posted by flar7
Under Mythology.
All the creation myths that I have studied (took classes)
have the same theme. around 4 stages. birth. life. death. rebirth.
They have these stated in lots of different ways but almost all are cyclic. African(which is very cool cause we could find no evil gods)
Native American, Greek, Hindu, Norse...etc etc.

They are great stories to read. And have great views on mankind.
Also they share a "Great Flood" in the past story. So perhaps the world was flooded in the past at some point in time.

Post back if you find any cool books or myths that you like.

Also the Gods and Goddesses forum could be of help.

Thank You :thumbsup:

[Xander67]

Flar,
are you saying that Evil and the devil is just a human invention to instill fear in the minds of the people to control us???

*sorry could not resist that enlightening question LOL

[Ball-Bhreac Ròn]

Well, I think I kinda believe in the big bang theory, and think the universe will end with the big scrunch *shudders at the thought*
I totally and utterly 'believe' in evolution, and personaly think its fascinating. As for unicorns and stuff...they exist, but only in imaginary fluff land, and they can pass into boring stone land (here) at times when the Veil is drawn thin...:D IMHO

[Ball-Bhreac Ròn]

Oh, but also, I believe that nothing would exist without me....so yey to me!
No, but you know what I mean...I've got no proof that any one of you exists, just as you (if you DO exist) don't have any proof I exist...if you understand...
I've got many interesting (IMO) theories etc etc on like etc but I really don't have time to go into them here :p

[Xander67]

Twink, please allow me to ask one thing....

how can you say you believe in evolution and then say you believe in the other realms...

according to evolution, there is no other realm, there are no faeries and there are certainly no unicorns and fluff...

imho.. you either believe in one or the other,,,, or you are open to possibilities...

*bows to the marmite messiah LOL

[Myst]

Originally posted by Xander67
according to evolution, there is no other realm, there are no faeries and there are certainly no unicorns and fluff...

Why not?

[Xander67]

BECAUSE the theory of evolution says that everything just happened and evolved, it does not teach of a hereafter or allow for the possiblity that a higher being could have created the universe...

as far as I have read anyhow and according to what is being taught in the schools today...

I could be wrong though but i havent seen anything other that that on the theory of evolution, id be willing to see any data to the contrary provided the source of the data is from a credible source

[flar7]

excluding thing mythical or what, just never talks about it. What they dont know they ignore?

twink, have had similar experiences and theories of the how do I know you exist reality check. I am the only one. hehheh, be careful, you can get committed sayin stuff like that.

[flar7]

where does it start? Big bang? well, what blew up? what caused that? and so on.... Something that exists had to be made by something else somewhere along the way.

[Xander67]

shall we get the straight jacket ready flar,?? LOL this one oughtta fit her, :)

[flar7]

but remember, you must approach the insane carefully....

[Xander67]

hehe yeah i know LOL

[Myst]

Originally posted by Xander67
BECAUSE the theory of evolution says that everything just happened and evolved, it does not teach of a hereafter or allow for the possiblity that a higher being could have created the universe...

a) no one said "unicorns and fluff" were in the hereafter
b) no one said "unicorns and fluff" require a higher being of creation to exist
c) evolution of creatures - creatures don't have to exist on this plane or have evolved into "non-mythical" creatures

People always thinks in terms of *our* planet, *our* experience, and *our* observation - there is nothing that says creatures couldn't have evolved on other planes or through other means. At least in my mind, there is no proof against it at all, regardless of the existence or non-existence of evolution.

To be brief, I believe the big bang occurred as a result of a cycle wherein the earth was destroyed - I believe life exists in cycles much like the food cycle or rain cycle - the earth is created, life exists, the earth is destroyed, the earth is reborn - for an infinite, forever, without beginning nor end. Thus what created the big bang was the last remnants of the earth that died in the last cycle. I know I'd like to see many more on topic ideas here :)

[Xander67]

now that makes sense Myst :)

I was under the mis-informed opinion that the theory of evolution was "restrictive" in and of itself, as a kid in school we were always taught that the "fluf" (unicorns and mytical stuff) was just a myth and not real....

thanks for your enlightening Myst :)

[Myst]

Originally posted by Xander67
I was under the mis-informed opinion that the theory of evolution was "restrictive" in and of itself, as a kid in school we were always taught that the "fluf" (unicorns and mytical stuff) was just a myth and not real....


I dunno about enlightening, as usual that was my opinion. But then we're taught "fluff" stuff is all just a myth anyway, not necessarily because evolution denies it, but just because we're meant to see it as "make believe". I don't know, I'm waiting for someone who actually has some scientific background to chime in here.

[gunner]

as to unicorns, dragons and other mythical beasties and beings i've heard lately that some scientists are beginning to think the "alternate universes" theory may possibly be valid and if so why not an alternate reality where unicorns, fearie and all do exist. if there is an infinity of alternate realities then an infinity of possibilities can exist.

(and myst, if you're not a sci-fi/fantasty reader i'll be quite surprised.)

[Old Witch]

:confused: But if I imagine dragons, fairies, whatever exist (in my mind you understand), don't I have a little alternate reality of my own, nothing to do with anyone elses reality. I believe I've alredy got a straightjacket in my size from a previous thread.;) What if our little imaginings actually create alternate universes? If they are infinite ... I quit. I'm beginning to scare myself.

[gunner]

"What if our little imaginings actually create alternate universes? If they are infinite ... I quit. I'm beginning to scare myself."

actually robert a. heinlein used that theory in his novel "number of the beast" which also advanced the theory that the "number of the beast", 666, in the bible was actually 6 to the 6th and to the 6th again, exponential and was the number of all possible alternate universes. does that make your head spin just a bit?

[Myst]

I like trying to think of infinite universes, realities, planes, and so on. Very intriguing and mind boggling :)

[Adrenaline Junkie]

I have 2 "boats of thought" on this issue.

One, we were created by the Goddess and God. We evolved from there and will continue to evolve.

Two, the universe has always been there. Earth has always been there. The God & Goddess have always been there. We were created as very low life forms and slowly evolved to this point.

[flar7]

on an infinite scale. And its a work in progress, no part of the painting exists until you look for it. It is filled in as you go. Beyond what we see and know is nothing, until we look there, and viola! Instant something...molecules, electrons, quarks, any and all...

[Old Witch]

Spinning!;)

[flar7]

like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives.

couldnt resist after the "spinning" frenzy! :mmm:

[Ball-Bhreac Ròn]

Originally posted by Myst


a) no one said "unicorns and fluff" were in the hereafter
b) no one said "unicorns and fluff" require a higher being of creation to exist
c) evolution of creatures - creatures don't have to exist on this plane or have evolved into "non-mythical" creatures

People always thinks in terms of *our* planet, *our* experience, and *our* observation - there is nothing that says creatures couldn't have evolved on other planes or through other means. At least in my mind, there is no proof against it at all, regardless of the existence or non-existence of evolution.

To be brief, I believe the big bang occurred as a result of a cycle wherein the earth was destroyed - I believe life exists in cycles much like the food cycle or rain cycle - the earth is created, life exists, the earth is destroyed, the earth is reborn - for an infinite, forever, without beginning nor end. Thus what created the big bang was the last remnants of the earth that died in the last cycle. I know I'd like to see many more on topic ideas here :)

Thankyou thankyou thankyou, exactly what I would've said if I'd got here earlier! :p


"unicorns and fluff" :rotfl:

[Old Witch]

I agree with Myst (I'm serious now). I believe the Indians (India), some Eastern Religion has a creation story that takes this innto account.:ghost: :elf:

[flar7]

the story you may be thinking of involves Brahma, who has 4 names depending on the age. There are 4 ages of mankind, and Lord Brahma changes as each age passes, Brahma, ?, Vishnu, Shiva. Am missing a name, and dont wanna get my book. So if you know his third name then fill in the blanks. Maybe Rama?

and the ages start with creation and evolve up through the silver age and the last age. bronze, silver, gold,(those two could be switched?) and the last age whose name also slips by me.

[Myst]

Devi ?

http://www.asia.si.edu/devi/text2.htm

[flar7]

she's not an apect of Vishnu, because in the hindu myth they are enemies as shiva and kali. Shiva destroys the world and then Brahma remakes the world to start again. Hinduism(sp?) usually relates in that way, not always. And Vishnu is always male, cant remember his wifes name, she saves him when he drinks the poisen to save the world by strangling him. weird.

[Myst]

I don't know, way too confusing for me. Interesting but confusing. Reminds me of ancient North American creation myths too in a way..

As far as my ideas on the cyclical nature of things, that just comes from my thinking. I do read sci fi and a lot about other pantheons and myths etc. but I think that idea was just something I accepted from my own thinking. *shrugs*

Also thinking on several planes of existence and energy being the divine and that which exists within and around all of us - I think that comes from conversations with my Pagan friends. I'm also into the Qabballah in a way too.. yes I'm babbling now ;)

[bansidhe]

well, i believe in creation, and evolution, because everywhere i look, i see things evolving...like the aids virus, and things like that. whos to say that a deity couldnt start things off and then let them change as necessary?

thats juss my $0.03 anyways! :) im sitting on the fence swinging my legs happily on this one! :)

[cydira]

First question:

Where did the Universe come from?

Second question:

Why is the Universe here?

Third question:

What is the Universe made of?


Here's my answer to all three:
If you don't know where the Universe came from, why it is here, or what it is made of, does that cheapen the experience of living here?

Some people will say I'm answering a question with a question, and you know what... I am. :D I think there are some questions that we'll never know the answers to. We can theorize, conjecture, postulate, and pholosiphize about these questions but it doesn't mean that all of our effort can answer them.

Am I saying that we can't answer these particular questions, not necessarily. But I think that if we can find an answer to these questions, we'll find more questions. These irritating things called questions work like that, I've found. And my instructors hate it when I ask that dreaded three letter question "why?"

After a point, we're forced to say that we don't know. It's ok, I don't need to know the mysteries of the Universe. I'm just happy that they're there and I can wonder about them from time to time. :)

I'm now going to drag my drugged li'l ol' self off to class and then take a nap. Head colds are so much fun. :p

[Radocs]

I believe in the big bang theory concerning the "beginning" of the universe. As for the end, I subscribe to the theory that it will just keep expanding and cooling off until there isn't enough energy left to form new stars. I don't have an opinion on evolution.

[Oridian]

evolution or big bang conflict with creation by God. God could create or evolve the uneverse in any manner he/she/it pleased. Perhaps God just gave his creation the appearance of a big bang history after he snapped his fingers and brought it all into existance.

Science and history show us evidence of evolution ( or God just planted it there to confuse the hell out of us). Plants, animals, microbes, and all in between do evolve. Slowly yes, but change they do. I figure all this was set into motion by God. I believe he gave living beings the ability to adapt in order to survive, even evolving into new creatures over time( a lot of it).

Scientifically, I see no reason to think that evlolution would preclude the existance of "mystical" beings. For myself, I can only witness the existance around me in the world we call earth. That doesn't mean that other planes of existances do not also exist. When the school speaks of evolution they speak of evidence based change in the physical world that they can observe. To me this leaves much room for the possibliity of other "worlds" and "mystic" creatures. Perhaps those creatures are here with us now but we can not percieve them becuase our senses are just not able to see or feel into the energy spectrum they inhabit.

[Demeter]

Originally posted by gunner
"What if our little imaginings actually create alternate universes? If they are infinite ... I quit. I'm beginning to scare myself."

actually robert a. heinlein used that theory in his novel "number of the beast" which also advanced the theory that the "number of the beast", 666, in the bible was actually 6 to the 6th and to the 6th again, exponential and was the number of all possible alternate universes. does that make your head spin just a bit?

Yep. Pantheistic Multiple Solipsism. All universes we can imagine, and those we can't, exist somewhere and somewhen. We can only perceive one at a time.

All I can say is, whoever is reading the book in which I am a ficton is probably getting pretty bored with it.

[Eeluna]

I think that the Universe has an eternal cycle. It is born with the big bang. It evolves and grows according to It's natural tendencies, and It dies and is reborn. In fact I think of the Universe as Deity. . .as the All. Everything is a part of the Universe, and everything evolves along with it. Evolution is a natural law of the Universe. I also believe there are an infinite number of alternate realities that exist within this Universe. Just because we can't see them doesn't mean they're not there.

[Illuminatus]

Good lord, a thread in Just Talk that hasn't degenerated to idiotic smilies and dumb communal stories. I shall have to post in this thread!

Hobbes expresses my opinion on the questions asked 5 posts above:



Calvin: Why do you suppose we're here?
Hobbes: Because we walked here.
Calvin: No, no, I mean here on Earth.
Hobbes: Because Earth can support life.
Calvin: No, I mean why are we anywhere? Why do we exist?
Hobbes: Because we were born.
Calvin (angry): Forget it.
Hobbes (angry): I will, thank you.

[Sunday's Child]

Sure there are other universes, worlds, realities, gods... Isn't it a little vain to think we are the only ones?

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Sunday's Child
Sure there are other universes, worlds, realities, gods... Isn't it a little vain to think we are the only ones?

Is it not equally vain to simply assume that there are other realites, based only on one's own feelings and conjecture?

[Sunday's Child]

I was waiting for Junior to reply... What makes you think I am assuming? Maybe Iam vain.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Sunday's Child
I was waiting for Junior to reply... What makes you think I am assuming? Maybe Iam vain.

Hey, join the club, I'm the secretary.
How come you don't come to meetings?

[Socharis]

Is there any chance that someone could post one of the crreation myths in this topic?

[Starlight]

I don't know any pagan stories but I do know a Chinese version of creation, a Norse one and a couple of Christian ones! I've got a few good books on mythology They're quite interesting actually. :thumbsup:

[elspeth]

here's a link to a fabulous creation myth authored by a member over at ubb.wicca.nu. i, for one, think it's a perfect wiccan myth...


http://ubb.wicca.nu/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000091

[mato]

A personal/wiccan/mayan myth mixture... I have heard alot of stuff that sounded like the answers I got when I asked people were they came from (ie I came form my momy and dady with no further explination) So I will expand on this drawing from mayan wiccan and biological mythes (yes I said biological myths got a problem with that?!)....
Two forces came together before everything, yet these forces were at the same time nothing they were force and form without eachother.... These two forces created through whatever means (big bang takes on new meaning when you are compairing them to biological creation!) And the universe was formed. Two other forces (in the form of suns that I have sense forgotten the names of but it was on nova) came together and from their leavings this sun and solar system formed and form the interaction (of yet two more forces) the planets condensed form the cloud of dust that was left... From one of these planets the forces of the elements were strong enough to allow life to form in the prymordial oceans of sudo protein goo (haha)... In the seas life grew and was born onto the land, a series of rebirthes occured (that I am too busy to type up now) and brought forth mamalian life. We decended from the trees lost our tails and stood up (not in any particualar order). We looked around saw a lot of things with teeth speed and abilities that far surpassed ours in comparison so we looked up at the blue/purple (as It was probably night when this happen purple) and wanted some one like that on our side... So we created Gods (though not the lord and lady which are personifications of the forces that brought us forth in other words our parents)... found that they didnt help much so we then made weapons which worked wonders, but were attributed to the gods, hence man still worships god when he really needs the blade (off topic)... This does mirror biological creation, which I will spare you now, but if you really want to know go read a biology book particularly the human reproduction unit. And with a wave of a not so magic wand we have all that is! vualla one creation myth on demand!

[Socharis]

Originally posted by elspeth
here's a link to a fabulous creation myth authored by a member over at ubb.wicca.nu. i, for one, think it's a perfect wiccan myth...


http://ubb.wicca.nu/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000091

Wow i agree that is great :thumbsup:

[Socharis]

Originally posted by mato
A personal/wiccan/mayan myth mixture... I have heard alot of stuff that sounded like the answers I got when I asked people were they came from (ie I came form my momy and dady with no further explination) So I will expand on this drawing from mayan wiccan and biological mythes (yes I said biological myths got a problem with that?!)....
Two forces came together before everything, yet these forces were at the same time nothing they were force and form without eachother.... These two forces created through whatever means (big bang takes on new meaning when you are compairing them to biological creation!) And the universe was formed. Two other forces (in the form of suns that I have sense forgotten the names of but it was on nova) came together and from their leavings this sun and solar system formed and form the interaction (of yet two more forces) the planets condensed form the cloud of dust that was left... From one of these planets the forces of the elements were strong enough to allow life to form in the prymordial oceans of sudo protein goo (haha)... In the seas life grew and was born onto the land, a series of rebirthes occured (that I am too busy to type up now) and brought forth mamalian life. We decended from the trees lost our tails and stood up (not in any particualar order). We looked around saw a lot of things with teeth speed and abilities that far surpassed ours in comparison so we looked up at the blue/purple (as It was probably night when this happen purple) and wanted some one like that on our side... So we created Gods (though not the lord and lady which are personifications of the forces that brought us forth in other words our parents)... found that they didnt help much so we then made weapons which worked wonders, but were attributed to the gods, hence man still worships god when he really needs the blade (off topic)... This does mirror biological creation, which I will spare you now, but if you really want to know go read a biology book particularly the human reproduction unit. And with a wave of a not so magic wand we have all that is! vualla one creation myth on demand!

Cheers :thumbsup:

[flar7]

creation myths in "World Mythology-An Anthology Of The Great Myths And Epics." Third Edition by Donna Rosenberg.


If you want, I can copy or retype on these myths on to this thread.

[Socharis]

Originally posted by flar7
creation myths in "World Mythology-An Anthology Of The Great Myths And Epics." Third Edition by Donna Rosenberg.


If you want, I can copy or retype on these myths on to this thread.

that would be great