Druids were monotheists?

[Cathubodva]

Hello everyone.

I have recently began my studies concerning the Druids and celtic culture and i purchased some books regarding the celts and their mythology, and i have always regarded them as polytheists, however, the books i've bought treat the druids has monotheists. Could you shed some light in this please?

[StormVixen]

what books have you read? all the ones i have regard them as polytheists... i think?! hmmm *confuzzeled*

[Dave the Druid]

I've heard of this as well and have to say that I doubt it very much.

Both the Weldh and Irish belle letters point more to tri-aspect divinties. As for being mono theist, no. In addition to the earth, sky and sea; there were others for example, the springs in Bath known as Sulli. [This is a general list and should in no way be considered complete for the purposes of this discussion.]

[Twig]

All the disaffected historical referances (Ceasur, Tacitus, Pliny, etc.) in their orations of the celts/druids are quite adament in their treatment of the many Gods and Goddesses that were worshipped.

Which causes me to think. (uh oh, Twigs thinkin again!) While we hear of the different deities that different tribes worshiped, is there referance that the number extended all the way to the personal level or WAS it mono-politheistic {I just made that word up!!! :D} at the personal level...where the person picked/ was shown a single, personal deity to genuflect to out of a multiple choice.....or perhaps different Guilds were required to worship a specific single God!!?

That would be mighty handy, if not unexpected, for the "enemy" Romans to foster the alienness of "their whacked out religion" by making them seem to worship god in the mutiple. While in reality, the Celts would then have a parallel, as the roman got to choose which deity to worship from a pantheon themselves, until the introduction of christianity.

:fpartay: now you see why it's dangerous when I start to think. Hehehe
:rollingla

Peace

[Dave the Druid]

What???

I can handle gestalt thinking but maybe i'm a bit foggy right now.

Thinking-good
organizing before speaking - better

guilds? medieval,in origin I think.

sod all, I'm going back to sleep

[Cathubodva]

I think i didnt expressed myself correctly. When i said monotheistic, what i meant was, did druids had somekind of belief that all gods were just representations/facets of a single god?

Well, saying the books name is kinda hard because they are portuguese translations and i cant seem to find the original names of the books, but im going to tell you the names of the authors : Thierry Jolif, Raimonde Reznikove, among others that i cant recall the name...but one of them mentions Ceaser's [/I]Simulacra[I] as an evidence for this.

[StormVixen]

aaah soft-polytheist then? i think? i dunno... off to the pub now!!! yay The White Hart in Littleton has a "Witches Corner" with little witch dolls, models and pictures...!

[Dave the Druid]

Good clarification! :thumbsup:

Still doubt it though. Try wading through the Gaelic wars some time, it might help. Also consider who wrote the history NB Not the Druids.

[CromanMacNessa]

I think i didnt expressed myself correctly. When i said monotheistic, what i meant was, did druids had somekind of belief that all gods were just representations/facets of a single god?

Su-butâ tei, Catu-bodua, eti-c su-butâ ollobo.

The view you've suggested above is sometimes called "Pan-Polytheism." It's an acceptable view within modern variations of "Druidism," but asserting that it was the ancient view is probably wishful thinking. There is evidence in support of the notion that several different Gods were facets of another, or "aspects" of another, likewise the same is true of Goddesses. I'm referring to more than the notion that a given God or Goddess had many Names and Titles, which is yet another matter to deal with. But to claim that all Gods were "aspects" or facets of "One God" and that all Goddesses were "aspects" or facets of "One Goddess," and to go even further and claim that this "One God" and "One Goddess" were "aspects" of or facets of "One Deity" smacks of "modern" concepts influenced by the Abrahamic religions. Mystically speaking, the Divine is/are Beyond, and so the whole question can become rather silly, "One or Many" can make little sense (depending on the subjective nature of Mystical Experience, of course). But historically, there is little evidence that could support the idea of monotheism amongst the Heathen Celts, notwithstanding the work of the English antiquarians of the 17th - 19th centuries, who had their own agendas (including "proving" the idea of a "Primitive Theology," based on a literal acceptance of myth --- including the myths found in the book of B'rashis/Berashith/Genesis, such as the myth of Noah and his three sons who were the supposed Ancestors of everyone in the world).

[CromanMacNessa]

Try wading through the Gaelic wars some time, it might help.

Heya, Dave. That's "The Gallic Wars" (or more literally, "Concerning the Gallic War" = "De Bello Gallico"), mate.
:cheers:

[Twig]

Hmmmm yes that mold is pretty hard to break thats for sure

(in his best Homer Simson) Damn you Abraham!! :lol: :shhhh: Fine then :strike:

Peace
:elf:

[Meadhbh]

I was under the impression that the druids were pagan in their beliefs. Almost everything I've come across gives the ideal that they worshipped many gods. Were you run into polytheism a lot is in the more new aged books. For some reason the new age types have this thing that all the peoples in the world believed that their gods were aspects of one deity. While that was true for some people it wasn't for most. If you ever read any of marion zimmer bradley's works she really plays on the one god many aspects thing. If you read the Forest House you'll spend half the time wondering what goddess they are in fact serving, then it hits you that their going for all of them.

[Dave the Druid]

Heya, Dave. That's "The Gallic Wars" (or more literally, "Concerning the Gallic War" = "De Bello Gallico"), mate.
:cheers:

Right you are. I was in a hurry, as usual.

[bows]

[Cathubodva]

Thank you all for your replies. :)

[Myrddyn Emrys]

I was under the impression that the druids were pagan in their beliefs.

That is a subject in itself...

The word Pagan itself has come to represent an entirely different term in modern society. Originally stemming from the Latin Paganus, meaning country-dweller, it has come nowdays to refer to non-christian religions.

Heathen would be a bit more accurate, but still not hitting the mark.

[Dave the Druid]

Yeah, well me and my heathens are down with that

[Myrddyn Emrys]

Yeah, well me and my heathens are down with that

Dave, I think you've given new meaning to "in the Hood"...:cool:

[Dave the Druid]

Dave, I think you've given new meaning to "in the Hood"...:cool:

Not really, I'm paraphrasing Nelly heeeere.

Now here's an idea, rapping Druids. I think we may already be at this with chanting prayer circles. Try the Benzedrine Monks for example. :abanana:

[Dave the Druid]

Not really, I'm paraphrasing Nelly heeeere.

Now here's an idea, rapping Druids. I think we may already be at this with chanting prayer circles. Try the Benzedrine Monks for example. :abanana:

I have a headache but it's not a tumor!
-Ludichris

[blackroseivy]

I believe that all of the physical evidence - literary as well - points to polytheism, & that this whole "monotheistic Druidry" question was not raised until well after the advent of Christianity.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

Not really, I'm paraphrasing Nelly heeeere.

Now here's an idea, rapping Druids. I think we may already be at this with chanting prayer circles. Try the Benzedrine Monks for example. :abanana:


Makes me think of Mel Brook's movie History of the World Part One and their musical number for the Spanish Inquisition...

...or even Python's "Knights of the Round Table" musical number..:foh:

[Dave the Druid]

Too Busby Berkley,

The Inquisition
What a show,
The inquisition
Don't ya know....

Knights of the round table is more Brit burlesque than rap. IMHO

Danubhe, well put and I have to say reasonably accurate.

[Sonic Seamus]

In looking at the acient Irish texts we see the gods coming to the land in waves. The Tuatha de Dannan defeating the Fir Bolg and later the Formorians. The Sons of Mil defeating the Tuatha de Dannan.

One might assume the gods to be more like super heros, an ancient League of Justice or something, not really in keeping with the aspects of one creative force concept.

[KiNoRonin]

The Druids were Definitely Polytheists!!!

They believed in Gaia, Lugh, as well as the Greenman.

I personally beleive in the Sun God, my Sacred Hiroshima Survivor Eucalyptus Tree, as well as Basteth the Egyptian Goddess of all Feline Familiars.

KNR

[Seamus Donn]

The Druids were Definitely Polytheists!!!

They believed in Gaia, Lugh, as well as the Greenman.

I personally beleive in the Sun God, my Sacred Hiroshima Survivor Eucalyptus Tree, as well as Basteth the Egyptian Goddess of all Feline Familiars.

KNR

Gaia is not a celtic goddess and the greenman is more of a wicca thing unless you are refering to Cernunnos when you say greenman. I heard some wiccans call him that.

[Seamus Donn]

In looking at the acient Irish texts we see the gods coming to the land in waves. The Tuatha de Dannan defeating the Fir Bolg and later the Formorians. The Sons of Mil defeating the Tuatha de Dannan.

One might assume the gods to be more like super heros, an ancient League of Justice or something, not really in keeping with the aspects of one creative force concept.



Remember that the texts in which the information you just talked about was also written by CHristian Monks. Naturally they would try to downplay the gods.

[Dave the Druid]

In looking at the acient Irish texts we see the gods coming to the land in waves. The Tuatha de Dannan defeating the Fir Bolg and later the Formorians. The Sons of Mil defeating the Tuatha de Dannan.

One might assume the gods to be more like super heros, an ancient League of Justice or something, not really in keeping with the aspects of one creative force concept.

Good analogy.
Ask me sometime about raising my daughter and the developmental ages of Man some time. There are I assure you, parallels to theistic belief systems.

[KiNoRonin]

Gaia is not a celtic goddess and the greenman is more of a wicca thing unless you are refering to Cernunnos when you say greenman. I heard some wiccans call him that.


Ok, I Googled "Celtic Gods" and got:

CELTIC GODS

AMAETHON : Welsh God of Agriculture. A son of Don and brother of Gwydion. Associated with plowing and husbandry. The modern Welsh name for a farmer is amaethwr and the Welsh word for plowman is amaeth.

ANGUS MAC OG : Ireland; god of youth, love, and beauty. One of the Tuatha De Danann, name means "young son." He had a harp that made irresistible music, and his kisses turned into birds that carried messages of love.

ARAWN : Wales; god of the dead and the underworld Annwn. God of revenge, terror, and the dead.

BARINTHUS : Welsh, Anglo-Celtic, A charioteer to the residents of the Otherworld who was once probably a sea or sun God.

BELATUCADROS : British Celtic War God. His name means "fair shining one".

BELI : Welsh, The primary Welsh father God, husband of Don, and father of Arianrhod. Also a minor sun God who some feel is the Welsh equivalent of Balor.

BORVO : Breton, God of healing. Borvo's name means 'to boil', and he was a God of the hot springs.

BRAN THE BLESSED : Welsh, Pan-Celtic, Also Bran MacFebal. His name means 'crow', or 'Raven'. Associated with ravens, he is the God of prophecy, the arts, leader, war, the Sun, music, writing.

CAMULOS : British, War God. Known from inscriptions and coinage bearing the symbol of a boar.

CERNUNNOS : Pan-Celtic, Known to all Celtic areas in one form or another. The Horned God; God of Nature; God of the Underworld and the Astral Plane; Great Father; "the Horned One".

CONDATIS : Britain, God who personified the waters, his sacred sites were wherever two rivers or bodies of water met.

DISPATER : Continental, Also Dis Pater. Gaulish God, whose name means "the Father," was a primal God of creation who later merged with both Don and Cernunnos, the Horned God. The Gauls all believed themselves to be descended from him.

DWYVAN : Welsh, Also Dwyfan. Dwyvan and his wife, Swyfach, are the heroes of the Welsh flood myth. Together they built an ark, filled it with animals, and survived the great flood caused by Addanc, a lake God/dragon/faery. Though later versions of this myth are distorted in order to make it conform to the Biblical verson. Later on the Christoan church went to great lengths to destroy any records on the truth of this history.

DYLAN : Welsh, God of the Sea. His symbol was a silver fish. Weight Loss Secrets Revealed!

ESUS : Breton, Continental, Also Essus. A harvest God worshipped in Brittany, and in Gaul by the people known as the Essuvi.

GOVANNON : Welsh, God of smiths and metalworkers. The weapons he makes are deadly in their aim, the armor unfailing in its protection.

GRANNOS : Scottish, Anglo-Celtic, Continental, An early continental God of mineral springs whose shrines have been found in the Scotland town of Musselburgh, in Auvergne, France, and near Edinburgh, Scotland.

GWYDDNO : Welsh, This one time sea God came down in myth as a monster of faery of the ocean.

GWYN AP NUAD : Welsh, King of the Fairies and the underworld.

THE HORNED GOD : Pan-Western European, Opener of the Gates of Life and Death; Herne the Hunter; Cernunnos; Green Man; Lord of the Wild Hunt. The masculine, active side of Nature; Earth Father. His sacred animals were the stag, bull, goat, bear.

LLUD : Anglo-Celtic, Welsh, Known in Wales as the son of Beli, and a death God in his own right.

LUGH : Pan-Celtic, The Shining One; Sun God; God of War; "Many Skilled"; "Fair-Haired One"; "White or Shining"; a hero god.

MANDRED : Cornish, In Cornish legends, Mandred is the true name of God which, when pronounced, draws the All-Power to the one speaking it.

MYRRDIN WYLLT : Welsh, A woodland God who deliberately grew feathers so he could leap from tree to tree.

OGHMA : Scottish, Irish, God of communication and writing who invented the Ogham Alphabet and gave it to the Druids.


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Is that enough Celtic Gods for you?

There was also another Link to the Celtic Goddesses. Do you want me to download that for you too?

:whatmewor

KNR

[Meadhbh]

Hark is that more than one god on that list? The christen druid thing didn't really come about till a lot latter. Thats when you get the mix like the Reformed Druids of North America. Which are like christian/pagan druids. Granted they came along very recently and I'm not sure of what all they practice but not quiet sure what they call themselves to. I also believe there was a lot of monotheistic druid like groups in the victorian age. Really, all they were was jumped up gentlemens clubs, who enjoyed wearing robes and massaging their own ego's. Though some people may include them and that lends to the druids as monotheists thing.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

...Thats when you get the mix like the Reformed Druids of North America. Which are like christian/pagan druids. Granted they came along very recently and I'm not sure of what all they practice but not quiet sure what they call themselves to...

Granted, in the scheme of things, the RDNA is rather young. It only started in 1963.

Not all RDNA members are monotheists. I would suggest that you check out and read some of the ARDA (A Reformed Druid Anthology) at;

http://orgs.carleton.edu/Druids/ARDA/

Pretty much, it's up to the individual.

[Nantonos]

Ok, I Googled "Celtic Gods" and got:

CELTIC GODS

Long and inaccurate list from another website, snipped.


Is that enough Celtic Gods for you?

MW is full of copies of similar lists. Its much better to link to them rather than copy and pasting them in.

[Meadhbh]

Well, that makes since then. I was looking over what they believed and some aspects of it seemed monotheistic and others seemed polytheistic. I don't have a problem with that really, though it seem like things would run a bit more smoothly if they were either or. Neither way is better than the other but it seems like their proceeding would run more smoothly. They seem to be a lot smaller than they once where I wonder if that has anything to do with the drop in numbers.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

Well, that makes since then. I was looking over what they believed and some aspects of it seemed monotheistic and others seemed polytheistic. I don't have a problem with that really, though it seem like things would run a bit more smoothly if they were either or. Neither way is better than the other but it seems like their proceeding would run more smoothly. They seem to be a lot smaller than they once where I wonder if that has anything to do with the drop in numbers.

Actually, RDNA membership is in the 4000 member range and is currently in an upswing. Several new Protogroves have been recently formed. You also must realize there have been "schisms" over the years (Groups basicly breaking away to do thier own thing, the ADF is an example) which have become good Organizations in their own right, therefore causing a drop in RDNA numbers.

As well, there is no direct governing system for the RDNA. That was (I believe...Uncle Isaac, you may, and please do, correct me if I interperate this wrong) one of the points that brought about the ADF schism.

Another point during that was Polytheism. I find the whole thing fascinating from both sides, and have enjoyed reading it.

Personally, I fall into a "pan-poly"theistic viewpoint.