Arthur stuff: Gweneviere, Merlin, Arthur, Morgana La Fae

[LadyCelt]

not sure if it goes here but I am also asking a deity question.

did she really exist?

Was she like in the recent movie with using archery and a fierce fighter? Was she possibly a priestess as it seems she was close to Merlin. Did Merlin actually exist? Was there a preistess who worked with Merlin? Who exactly was Morgana La Fae?


Also, is Gweneviere considered a goddess at all? She appeals to me the most.


And, if she did exist, how old was she and what was her childhood story and etc?


thanks.

[mucgwyrt]

not sure if it goes here but I am also asking a deity question.

did she really exist?

Was she like in the recent movie with using archery and a fierce fighter? Was she possibly a priestess as it seems she was close to Merlin. Did Merlin actually exist? Was there a preistess who worked with Merlin? Who exactly was Morgana La Fae?


Also, is Gweneviere considered a goddess at all? She appeals to me the most.


And, if she did exist, how old was she and what was her childhood story and etc?


thanks.
which one? I'll assume Guinevere.

Bottom line is, nobody even knows exactly who Arthur was, never mind his various consorts :)
Current thinking is that he lived in the 5th Century, and fought the invading Saxons... although to be honest there's no evidence that the Saxons actually invaded persay, they just seem to have blended into society........

so yeah, nobody knows :steppy:

[Toby Stimpson]

Well you ask a difficult question...

For one, as said, no body knows if Arthur existed or not. it is difficult becasue a vast majority of the evidence we have 'found' has proven to be either false or biassd somehow. Another major difficulty is the fact that the belief that we have a vastness of literature to support him is false. The literiture we have is actually derived from only a hand ful of sources and is then copied over and over again and added onto. Malory's Mort D'Arthur is a derivitive of Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the kings of britain...and so on. I wrote an essay on this very subject and my conclusion was that what we think we know of Arthur is false, or to some degree affected mostly by the society that wrote it...and that the majjority of the Christian symbols are in fact derivitives of celtic symbols.

As for the Saxon invasion...it is a real possibility, and to be honest i have never heard of it as merely being a 'theory.' If you look at the ethnic makeup of the UK, you'll nopte that there are Normans, Anglo-Saxons, Welsh/irish/Scottish. Now, there may have been an initial invasion as there have been archeological sites unearthed that spoke of a climate of fear in the country from around the supposed invasions ook place. I am from Wales, and have lived there half of my life and when i was growing up bfore I moved to Canada there was this large hill overlooking our country cottage. on the top of this hill was a standing stone, roughly as tall as a man, and I rememebr that at the time we used to travel up there and visit it every year or so. My dad always used to say that it was a light signal, where kindling would be set ablaze to warn of the oncoming Vikings...(I ask him now and he swears anglosaxons, but how can you explain that to a 6 yr old? lol). So on that note, you ask any Northern welshman or scottishman why he dislikes the southern welsh or british and one of the reasons (among many in the sad history of Britain) will be that they were saxons who invaded.

On another note, you ask about the women, Morgan and Gwenevere. i take it you have read Mists of Avalon? Well, Morgan was just that...she was the half sister of Arthur by the Duke of cornwall. In some older versions she is seen as an evil witch seduced by the Devil to lead the good companions astray and to thwart the good activities of Camelot. Yet, as I wrote in my essay, if she was truly evil then why did she wisk the dying Arthur to the otherworld and care for him there? I have read that morgan is a derivitive of some ancient celtic demigoddess, or perhaps even a remnant of the old goddess Morrigan. it is hard to say and anyone who reads will have different opinions on her. Some worship her as a Goddess, and I did for a while...I still keep her image on my alter as a reminder. She is perhaps similar to hecate, a mother of beneficant witchcraft. As for Gwenevere, well...the recent movie (which i did not like one bit) did not do her character justice. in traditional tales she is the embodiment of the purity of soul. Her tale is a tragic tale of love that is akin to Sita, or perhaps Kore. Trapped by love, she must overcome her fears but ultimatly fails to be bainshed. Shes an interesting character becasue her story is so tragic and there is no happy ending for her. She goes from the embodyment of power and purity to a victim of love's blind touch. As a goddess, I am not too sure...she may actually be a counterpart to a celtic Goddess...of whom i cant think of right now lol. But as a rough archress? I don't know...I thought that was more of a horrible way to sexualize her for the American market...that skimpy outfit she was on, yeah...not very historic! *shakes head* hehe.

Namaste

Tobias

[mucgwyrt]

Well you ask a difficult question...
As for the Saxon invasion...it is a real possibility, and to be honest i have never heard of it as merely being a 'theory.' If you look at the ethnic makeup of the UK, you'll nopte that there are Normans, Anglo-Saxons, Welsh/irish/Scottish. Now, there may have been an initial invasion as there have been archeological sites unearthed that spoke of a climate of fear in the country from around the supposed invasions ook place. I am from Wales, and have lived there half of my life and when i was growing up bfore I moved to Canada there was this large hill overlooking our country cottage. on the top of this hill was a standing stone, roughly as tall as a man, and I rememebr that at the time we used to travel up there and visit it every year or so. My dad always used to say that it was a light signal, where kindling would be set ablaze to warn of the oncoming Vikings...(I ask him now and he swears anglosaxons, but how can you explain that to a 6 yr old? lol). So on that note, you ask any Northern welshman or scottishman why he dislikes the southern welsh or british and one of the reasons (among many in the sad history of Britain) will be that they were saxons who invaded.

Namaste

Tobias

offtopic: I was always told by my archaeology teacher that there is no archaeological evidence of an invasion; no burnt villiage remains, no mass graves, nothing pointing at a significant amount of battles at the time when the saxons came.

(I tend to trust archaeological evidence more than a welshman's grudge :heybaby: and the Vikings were not the same as the anglo-saxons; the invading vikings came in 800-900ad, whereas the saxons settled in 450ad. )

[Toby Stimpson]

Hmmm, perhaps I was confusing the Roman battles with the saxon 'battles.' I went out and looked for more information, and i found this scholarly website

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/vikings/asinv.html (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/vikings/asinv.html)

It brings up soem interesting things that I to be honest did not even know about. its a good read...however it does say that as the saxons came into the country, there was strife among the people as they were displaced. LOL, and yes...the Welsh do bear grudges but as I like to think of it...we bear grudges of peace lol...not that i wouldn't date a southern welsh man, they can be quite hot ;) lol.

Tobias

[mucgwyrt]

Hmmm, perhaps I was confusing the Roman battles with the saxon 'battles.' I went out and looked for more information, and i found this scholarly website

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/vikings/asinv.html (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/vikings/asinv.html)

It brings up soem interesting things that I to be honest did not even know about. its a good read...however it does say that as the saxons came into the country, there was strife among the people as they were displaced. LOL, and yes...the Welsh do bear grudges but as I like to think of it...we bear grudges of peace lol...not that i wouldn't date a southern welsh man, they can be quite hot ;) lol.

Tobias
oh blimey, that's HUGE! Maybe Ill skim it when I get home ;)

Where abouts did you live? I'm in Bristol, currently working on the welsh border in a teensy village you'll never have heard of :T

[Toby Stimpson]

LOL, it may not be too far. Right now Im in Ontario in Toronto, but I came from a small village named Caerwys near Mold...if you know where that is lol....about an hour from Chester (taking those wonderful truly british windings roads, how i miss them! lol)...but you never know, i might have heard of it...or atleast if not, my map can help me ;).

Namaste

Tobias

[Morgandria]

I personally think that the Arthurian myths and stories are simply that - stories. They may have been real people, at one point, but at this time there is so much to these tales that have been embellished, first by medieval writers, and more so over time, that they little resemble stories of the people they *might* once have been based upon.

They're fiction. The people are fictional characters. I don't believe in them as gods, goddesses, or a basis for a spiritual path.

[Kern]

Nennius' Historia Brittonum:

Tunc Arthur pugnabat contra illos in illis diebus cum regnibus Brittonum, sed ipse dux erat bellorum. (...) Duodecim fuit bellum in monte Badonis, in quo corruerunt in uno die nongenti sexaginta viri de uno impetu Arthur (...) Et in omnibus bellis victor extitit."

Then, in those days, Arthur fought against them (the Saxons), together with the kings of the Britons, but he himself was the leader of the soldiers. (...) The twelfth battle took place on mons Badonicus, where 960 men died on the same day, under one attack by Arthur (...) And he left every battle as the victor.

The most common theory has been that Arthur was a cavalry commander (in the Roman way), which would explain.......

1) his dominance against the Saxons (who didn't use cavalry)
2) the enormous terrain in which he was active (from Scotland to the South of England)
3) the speed in his actions (the battles follow each other very quickly, all over the place)

After that last battle, on mons Badonicus (somewhere between 493 and 516), the expansion of the Saxons was halted for about 20 years. According to the Annales Cambriae, Arthur was then killed in 537 (the author uses 516 as the date of Arthur's last victory) by a British rival: Medrawt, who became Mordret in the French Arthur stories and the now more familiar Mordred.

This is about all we know of Arthur and Mordred,the rest was basically made up Norman French Romantic Tales with no real basis in reality...so I assume this would imply,that Guenivere and the rest were fictional characters..

[Toby Stimpson]

Wel it doesnt mean they were entirely fictional characters. there may have been a Guenevere who is said to have lived at the time of Arthur or around that time period who was not connected but had myths of her own...that through successive generations were incoroporated into the myths. It doesnt necessarily mean that the characters are entirely fictional though...after all the stories of the Gods evolved over time yet that doesnt make people less in the belief that those Gods are real, does it?

Tobias

[Moonlite Faery]

I had to reply to this thread because when I was in high school (6 years ago!) I was lucky enough to take a biography course and for my final paper I did my paper on non other than King Arthur. If only I could find my report! But let me tell you what I do remember...Arthur the man did in fact exist during that time. They still arent sure if his name was in fact Arthur or if that was the name given to the man in myth and legend. What they do know is that he was a leader or great warrior of Norse or even Celtic decent. They also found what they believe to be his gravesite and excavated a large coffin that was basically a hollowed out tree. Inside the coffin were the remains of a very tall very muscular man with artifacts from that time period that pointed to the theory that instead of a king he was in fact a strong leader. They also found the remains of a tall woman buried beside him. And at the point of my research I think they were trying to determine if her hair was blond to figure out what her decent was. Hopes this helps, and if I can find that report I will be sure to post it :)

[Toby Stimpson]

There are other examples of this...for example the island castle ruins at tintagel they believe used to be the strong hold for a local chieftain, perhaps even successive generations. It was about 500 years before the roman invasion and they have found pottery from huge wine jugs from Greece...and even etruscan wool. The mound you were talking about was near gloucester right?...I vaguely remember it.

Namaste

Tobias

[Moonlite Faery]

I think that was the place, its so hard to remember everything that I read, but I would say that is a safe bet. :)

[LadyCelt]

thanks for the help

[mucgwyrt]

There are other examples of this...for example the island castle ruins at tintagel they believe used to be the strong hold for a local chieftain, perhaps even successive generations. It was about 500 years before the roman invasion and they have found pottery from huge wine jugs from Greece...and even etruscan wool. The mound you were talking about was near gloucester right?...I vaguely remember it.

Namaste

Tobias
aye, didn't they find a stone with what they think spelled 'arthur' on it, there? (so it says on my National Heritage "visit tintagel, it's great!" pamphlet :hehehehe: )

[SoulHealer]

the stone said "ARTOGNOV", the Latin of British name Arthnou to be precise


Still guess it was better than a stone saying "King Arthur woz ere"

[mucgwyrt]

the stone said "ARTOGNOV", the Latin of British name Arthnou to be precise


Still guess it was better than a stone saying "King Arthur woz ere"
But.......... that would be like saying, every time we see 'Jane' spray painted on a wall, that it just HAD to be Jane Fonda that did it!

[Malcolm]

Arturius Castors was a real Roman cavalry commander, and I think he did lead a consort of sarmatians. I found some stuff on Wikipedia awhile back...I'll edit this with the link.


Edit Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Artorius_Castus)

[Morgandria]

I guess my thought is that there is a point where legend no longer reflects its' origin. Even though there may have been a historical person Arthur is based on, the stories and mythos that has built up around that is so far removed from that point or person that it is total fiction.
To me being an Arthurian pagan is no different from someone being a Jedi, or following the Book of G'kar, or mebbe deciding to follow the Kilingon warrior path. It's youir choice, but it's someone else's fictional creation you are basing your beliefs on. You might as well also honour the person who wrote it as one of your deities.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

The twelfth battle took place on mons Badonicus, where 960 men died on the same day, under one attack by Arthur (...) And he left every battle as the victor.
So would this be the same Battle of Badon Hill at which Brave Sir Robin personally wet himself?

I think that the whole Arthur thing is an amazing story, and stops at that. To be rude and blunt, whenever someone mentions Morgan le Fay or Arthur or Guenever in a 'Celtic' deities list, I immediately think 'Well, there's someone who read too much into 'Mists of Avalon'!"
People probably think that there's some huge similarity between Morgan le Fay and the Morrigan, but the thing is that Morgan le Fay isn't exactly a goddess of war. She was 'a great clerk of necromancy' (according to my version of La Morte d'Arthur) who went out of her way, for no apparent reason, to be a thorn in Arthur's side yet also did him great service on several occasions. It seems odd that no-one at Camelot seems to have thought "Hmmm, Morgan le Fay lives near here, why don't we go and arrest her for trying to kill the King?" so evidently something in the story hasn't survived to modern times.

[Kern]

So would this be the same Battle of Badon Hill at which Brave Sir Robin personally wet himself?
I assume the would be one and the same...


I think that the whole Arthur thing is an amazing story, and stops at that. To be rude and blunt, whenever someone mentions Morgan le Fay or Arthur or Guenever in a 'Celtic' deities list, I immediately think 'Well, there's someone who read too much into 'Mists of Avalon'!"People probably think that there's some huge similarity between Morgan le Fay and the Morrigan, but the thing is that Morgan le Fay isn't exactly a goddess of war. She was 'a great clerk of necromancy' (according to my version of La Morte d'Arthur) who went out of her way, for no apparent reason, to be a thorn in Arthur's side yet also did him great service on several occasions. It seems odd that no-one at Camelot seems to have thought "Hmmm, Morgan le Fay lives near here, why don't we go and arrest her for trying to kill the King?" so evidently something in the story hasn't survived to modern times.

Agreed...

[Hærfest Leah]

I guess my thought is that there is a point where legend no longer reflects its' origin. Even though there may have been a historical person Arthur is based on, the stories and mythos that has built up around that is so far removed from that point or person that it is total fiction.
To me being an Arthurian pagan is no different from someone being a Jedi, or following the Book of G'kar, or mebbe deciding to follow the Kilingon warrior path. It's youir choice, but it's someone else's fictional creation you are basing your beliefs on. You might as well also honour the person who wrote it as one of your deities.

I very much agree. So glad I found this thread because I've just started reading Mists of Avalon. I don't see any point in the so called "Avalonian Tradition". If someone is looking into that tradition they need to read the facts before persuing it any further.

I recently rememeber seeing this here about the Saxon invasion not being as violent as some think.

http://www.heathenthing.org/anglosaxon.html


Tribes of Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes came to Britain in the 4th and 5th Centuries. This is often perceived as an invasion, a concept derived largely from the writings of a monk named Gildas. However archaeological evidence indicates that the Germanic immigrants often lived peacefully among the indigenous Celtic population. The average Anglo-Saxon immigrant spent much more time pushing a plough than wielding a sword.

And here on Timeless Myths he lists good info on the real Arthur. A good place to read about the whole Arthurian legends IMO.

http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/arthur.html

[nouveaugoddess]

l am curently in the middle of reading the Mists of Avalon for about the millionth time ( in fact l have the whole series of books ) and l have NEVER mistaken the books for anything other than fiction !!! Sure , there are Dianic and Gardnerian traditions mentioned in order to explain various magical goings-on , but as for Arthur , Guinevere , Morgan being dieties....l nearly fell off my chair when l read that one....people , its MYTH and even though some may call on Roman and greek and celtic ( or your cultural preference ) dieties during ritual work , theses people are characters that are used to tell moraltiy tales , not a mystical how to guide. l absolutly love anything of the Arthurian era , books movies etc , but l know its all fiction and while it's great if the stories inspire you , you can't live your path via their example.

[ancestral_lee]

Actually Morgan la fe is an evolution of the older brythonic. goddess Modron. have a nice essay here from a scoloarly study of the arthurian myths my Rogeer loomis.

goes to show that older elements were being incorporaated into new tales. like the inclussion of deities and far older themes into the mabinogion tales where arthur also appears such as Culhwch ac Olwen.

lee

[omar]

Myrddin Emry or Merlin Emery, Merlyn the Wise or Merlyn the Magian. He was Bard to the Court of Camel(Camelot). Cadbury Castle built on Queen Camel Hill in 500AD. Near Somerset, England. The Knights of the Round Table was realy the kings that created the United Kingdom.

[Brightshores]

They still arent sure if his name was in fact Arthur or if that was the name given to the man in myth and legend. What they do know is that he was a leader or great warrior of Norse or even Celtic decent. They also found what they believe to be his gravesite and excavated a large coffin that was basically a hollowed out tree.

Interesting... although - a friend of mine who has a master's degree in Arthurian studies believes he was descended from Roman legionaries. Apparently the Roman name "Artorius" can linguistically be linked to North Africa, and there's a theory that Artorius "Dux" or Artorius "Rex" was the descendant of Roman legionaries who served in Britain, subsequently settling there and becoming part of the Romano-British aristocracy. That being said, Roman and Brittonic high-ranking families would probably have intermarried, so it's likely that he would have been Roman and Celtic.

He then, according to Gildas (6th century source) and Nennius (8th century source) went after the Anglo-Saxons, and fought twelve battles, the final one being the famous Battle of Badon Hill (Mons Badonicus, which archaeologists are still trying to locate, with or without Sir Robin's rather embarrassing episode :tongueout ) After this, he is credited for establishing some sort of peace with the Saxons. It's a mistake, though, to assume that he created a large-scale, politically unified nation-state - England didn't experience political unity on that scale between the time the Romans left in 407 and King Alfred the Great in the 9th century.

Not sure about Morgan le Fay or Guinevere - I think I read somewhere that, while heavily fictionalized, they are related to goddess figures of some sort - Guinevere being related to a goddess of fertility/sovereignty, and Morgan le Fay being related to a goddess of power/magic/afterlife. I have to look up some sources on this one, though.

Didn't the monks in Glastonbury Abbey say they found Arthur and Guinevere during the twelfth century or something? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. Seems to have been a good old monkish PR stunt, though. :hahugh:

The tablet in Tintagel is fascinating though, and IMO is some of the best contemporary evidence we have for his existence.

As for invasions being more or less violent - it seems that one recurring aspect of history in the British Isles is waves of raiding by foreigners (Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxon-Jutes, Vikings, Normans....) who then bring over their families, and end up settling there and being assimilated into the population. If anyone is interested in looking at population movements - try looking into toponymy, or the study of place-names, which tend to reflect that sort of thing. Really interesting stuff.

Very interesting thread! I'm glad somebody brought it up.

BTW - I also quite like The Mists of Avalon - great books; I have to read the others in the series.

[Hærfest Leah]

I'm at the end of Mists finally (and getting bored) and thru the whole book what am I thinking.... If I could I'd kick Gwenhwyfar square in the teeth if it would stop the crap that spews from her rattling head!

[Garnet]

This is a sign at Glastonbury Abbey in England.

http://www.virtualglastonbury.org.uk/virtualglastonbury/abbey/images/lg/write.jpg

Some believe the monks did find such a grave, & others believe this was the monks' way to bring more tourists, pilgrims, & money to the Abbey.

Either way, Glastonbury is a great place to visit.

[Moonlight's Daughter]

True, Mists is fiction. However:

If thousands and thousands of people believe in the story (not Mists but Aurther ect) then that give it power. Eventually, it will become real and the energy put into it will make it that way.

Consider this: At one point all the pantheons that we know of were created and given power by people at some point-then became real and so on. Who is to say that this cannot happen to Aurthur some day?

[David19]

True, Mists is fiction. However:

If thousands and thousands of people believe in the story (not Mists but Aurther ect) then that give it power. Eventually, it will become real and the energy put into it will make it that way.

Consider this: At one point all the pantheons that we know of were created and given power by people at some point-then became real and so on. Who is to say that this cannot happen to Aurthur some day?

Just wanted to say that not everyone believes the pantheons and gods were 'created' and 'given power' by humans, some are 'hard' polytheist and believe they exist independently of humans (and each other), i believe that the gods don't need us (which is the same in the Aztec religion and the Sumerian religion, in which humans are 'slaves' or servants to the gods), as one Sumerian recon told me, if the gods need us, then they aren't powerful and should be made to work for us, not the other way around (but, at least for me, the gods don't need us).

Edit: i also wanted to add, i thought Arthur already exists (or existed), wasn't he an Welsh king or something who led a rebellion, i think he was based on an historical figure (same with Merlin, i've read he was a sorceror or wizard who also led a rebellion or something, anyone correct me if i'm wrong).

Anyway, just wanted to add that :).

[Moonlight's Daughter]

I understand that-dont get me wrong. Let me add then: for those who believe that way..LOL

But even if that is the case, even if the gods came before man-some of the legends and history on them was probably embelleshed by the humans that beleived in them (humans have a tendency to do that, and of course every human's experiance is different) at least that is MY experiance.

But aside from that, I still beleive that the more energy, faith and thought you put toward something, the more it will become the truth for you. so if someone believes strongly that Morgaine (for instance) is a goddess and puts all their thought and faith in that-then she becomes one for that person.

Does that make sense?

[nouveaugoddess]

now half way through the novel...l got bored and read another two books during the break......l was just pondering...and pardon me to all those christian/pagans out there ( l think that is was could be termed an oxymoron )....but l wonder if the Arthurian legend isn't a Celtic stylised version of the story of Christ ? Hear me out....Arthur , tho not a prophet , hearalds a golden era for Britain...he is guided by religious smarties who are either for or against him ( male of course )...woman are either whores or witches and barreness is punishment for their sins....and when he dies in battle , sacraficed if you will , he is carted off to avalon , where he 'lives" on in an alternate world....just some food for thought !

[Brightshores]

I'm at the end of Mists finally (and getting bored) and thru the whole book what am I thinking.... If I could I'd kick Gwenhwyfar square in the teeth if it would stop the crap that spews from her rattling head!

LOL - She definitely is a bit too prim and self-righteous for her own good - or anybody else's! :hehehehe: I just roll my eyes at the ignorant woman.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Anyone who puts that lot on a list of deities has DEFINITELY read too much into 'The Mists of Avalon'.
'Le Morte d'Arthur' is loads better - if very dry - because the characters aren't nearly so black-and-white as they are in 'The Mists of Avalon'. Morgan is indeed 'a great clerk of necromancy' (wonder why, exactly, she learned that at the nunnery, of all places! You know those nuns, always with the dark arts) and goes out of her way to be a bastard to Arthur for NO REASON WHATSOEVER so far as we are told, yet she does him the odd service here and there. Guenever actually has a brain and is able to trick Mordred at the end. Tristan and Yesult have a terribly long and boring love affair. it's all very different from 'The Mists of Avalon' - oh, and nobody in it is *anything* but Christian.
'The Mists of Avalon' is a NOVEL. A novel is a very different thing than a religious text.