My fiancee's Catholic family path

[LadyCelt]

I love my faincee's family etc. They are one hundred percent Italian and one hundred percent cAtholic. But, as of Sunday I did somethign I feel may need to be kept secret from them.

At the Renaissance Festival, I did a handfasting with my faincee. We didn't plan it in advance, but had it done. The certificate says one year and one day. But, the person who married us and is a part of the Universal Church (I think means Unitarian) said with our vows for as long as we shall live in this life and the next. She also said in the eyes of God. But, maybe she meant Godde too.


Anyways, I am still excited and it was a great moment. However, it dawned on me: My fiancee's family is 100 percent Cahtolic and Italian.


I feel a bit guilty in a way. We were still gorna have the traditional wedidng down the line anyway. But, I have considered also doing maybe handfasting and/or something else once a year even form the date we went (september 18) as well.


For what it was with us I am glad. My parents wouldn't mind if our official legal marriage was this way. My other less immediate famly would be a different sotry. They are Portestant. i can see this one coming in the future too. But, I hope not.

I still told my fiancee I wonder if we will need a Catholic cermony to be recognized and accepted. He said he doesn't htink so with his parents but I said it may not be up to them etc.


But, what would the Catholic church or any Christina churches stance be on this? I assume not great. But, hey I read handfasting was the way to marry in the Roman Empire and he's Italian at least :)

[Shanti]

Are you in the U.S. cause here you need a license in advance of the ceremony for it to be legal.
As for Catholics, you have to be married by a 'Catholic priest' in order for them to recognize it. The where doesnt matter.:)

[LadyCelt]

I know its not legal. But, just the fact it was handfasting. I'm sure not being married in a Catholic cereony could be bad enough and I'm wondering with this.

I told him I wouldn't mind renewing it every year and he likes the idea.

[2-G]

I'm pretty sure handfastings can be either legal or just for the purpose without a legal contract behind it.

If you want a Catholic ceremony, then I don't think that they can do much if it's already been a year and a day. However, if the Priest doing the ceremony hears about it, he could refuse. That kinda deal, y'know?

[dark witch]

While spiritual in nature to you and your boyfriend, the handfasting meant nothing in legal terms or in the eyes of the Catholic church. For instance, if a Catholic marries a Jewish person in a non-Catholic ceremony then eventually divorces, that Catholic can remarry in the Catholic church because the person was never married in the "eyes" of the church.

Eventually, if you do intend to marry in the Catholic church, you will be expected to attend classes, and eventually must promise to raise your children Catholic. Should you care to share any of your Pagan related philosophies with the priest, I'm fairly sure they would not be well received....

When it comes to God, the Catholic church seems to believe they own the franchise.........

Dark Witch

[Calen]

...She also said in the eyes of God. But, maybe she meant Godde too...

Question..what does 'Godde' mean? Is it different from 'God'? Just curious, I've seen a few people use that.



Are you in the U.S. cause here you need a license in advance of the ceremony for it to be legal.
As for Catholics, you have to be married by a 'Catholic priest' in order for them to recognize it. The where doesnt matter.:)

Really? I thought Catholic marriages had to take place inside a consecrated church. Learn something new every day!

[juliaki]

At the Renaissance Festival, I did a handfasting with my faincee. We didn't plan it in advance, but had it done. The certificate says one year and one day. But, the person who married us and is a part of the Universal Church (I think means Unitarian) said with our vows for as long as we shall live in this life and the next. She also said in the eyes of God. But, maybe she meant Godde too.



I have a feeling that the person is a "member" of the ULC--the Universal Life Church. Basically that's an Internet web site where anyone who wants to have pseudo-clergy credentials attached to their name can log on, fill out a form, and in five minutes they're "Reverend" whomever. Some states don't recognize the paper that it is printed on, and although there are some people who are fulfilling roles of clergy who need to have some sort of official status who do so through there to try and slip in under regulatory radar, most of the people who end up as ULC "clergy" do so as somewhat of a joke.

At our local Ren Faire, we've got a ULC guy who goes around in his capacity as a "minister" to bless the breasts of all buxom ladies in attendance. (Of course he has to get a good look at cleavage to be able to make sure they should be blessed....) He blesses 'em, and gives you an official certificate that your breasts are blessed. It sounds like the person you ran into is just doing a variation of that... something cute that people can look back years from now and say "aww...wasn't it cute when we did that lil' ol' handfasting thing at the Ren Faire."

Now, if the person doing it was putting some sort of energetic intent behind it, things might get tricky for you.... if the person had put the energy in that you guys would remain together for a year and a day, then it is possible that "life stuff" could cause you to break up at the end of that year and a day...after all, that's all you got "guaranteed" in writing. On the other hand, I'm very troubled about the idea that someone would want to tie you together for life after life... very irresponsible, IMO. What life lessons you need in this life might not be what you need after this life, and likewise for your partner.

So given that the person seems not to be all together with it, just enjoy it like any other souvenir you might pick up at the Ren Faire or similar event...and at least it is much nicer than a digital photo of your sweetie as Conan and you as Xena.

[LadyCelt]

I knew about taking a class/course with the Catholic faith, but didn't know you'd have to raise them Catholic. Would I have to convert too? I have heard of covallidation, but not quite sure what it is. I think its if you aren't Catholic or the ceremony wasn't Cahtolic and without the course, you have to validate the marriage for the church though it is valid by law and by God.

[LadyTrinity]

I wouldn't feel guilty. It wasnt legally binding anyways.
It's a spiritual thing for you two, his parents DONT need to know about it. :drool:

[aluokaloo]

Well first off congratulations to you both LadyCelt! :hugz: :hugz: Second off, it is legal in the united states, however it depends on locality. Always locality. This is something for you and him, this is your special moment. Do they need to know? I don't think so, but that is up to you since you know his family better then we do. You can still get married in a catholic way if that is acceptable. Do you have to convert? Not likely, but then I don't know overmuch about the catholic faith, I have a ton of family members who are catholic. Would you like me to ask one of them the ere intricacies of marriage? I'm happy for you guys! Again congrats and may Godde bless your love.

[LadyCelt]

May you please ask for me?

And thanks for the kind comments.

[equinox2]

My wife and I married a few years ago, in the way we wanted to. I too have an all-Catholic family, and of course I was raised Catholic.

First of all, remember that this is YOUR wedding, for you and your lover to celebrate YOUR bond of marriage. If some relative wants to dictate how to get married, they are free to go and get married themselves, again if necessary. If that's not good enough for them, they can go jump in the lake. You are the one who will live with this wedding album for decades after many of them are dead. In 20 years, will your wedding album resound with the powerful, joint spirituality of you, your husband, and children, or will it look like some cheap surrender by spineless kids? It’s your choice – your wedding is the symbol of the love between you and your husband – don’t let others steal it.

It’s exciting to make the wedding of your dreams. Three simple steps:

1. Make up your own ceremony, and put in readings or rituals that are special to each of you. That way you can include what you want. Here is my ceremony, which didn’t have much of either, but you could use it as source of ideas for where to start. http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/EWedding.htm (http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/EWedding.htm)
2. Find a minister who will perform it. UU ministers almost always will, and the UU church has plenty of Pagan and plenty of Christian members, so it is nothing new to them. A UU minister will have no problem with reciting a prayer to Jesus in one breath, then invoking the Lord and Lady in the next breath. You can find a local UU church here: http://www.uua.org/CONG/index.php (http://www.uua.org/CONG/index.php) . Other ministers may or may not agree to do it – being that you have a lot of Christianity.
3. Have a beautiful, fun and spiritually fulfilling wedding!

As far as the legal stuff goes, there are two separate areas to consider. First, is it legal according to the U.S. Government? For that, all you need to do is get a marriage license at the local courthouse, and have it signed by either a registered minister (see #2 above) or a justice of the peace (judge). That is generally done the day of the ceremony. Then you are all set.

The other “legal” you referred to is “legal according the government of the Catholic church”. The RCC has a whole legal system – effectively a whole government. That's why if you are Catholic, you are supposed to give 10 to 15% of your income to the RCC. If you get married in the Catholic chuch, you have to worry about that. If not, then “legal” only refers to getting the marriage license as mentioned above.

LadyCelt wrote:

I knew about taking a class/course with the Catholic faith, but didn't know you'd have to raise them Catholic. Would I have to convert too?

Yes, I’m pretty sure you have to convert, though wading through the Catholic page here is hard. Here is the Catholic stance on this:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09698a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09698a.htm)

And yes, of course you have to promise to raise the kids Catholic, and be married by a Catholic priest. Remember, the Catholic church is like most Christian churches, everyone falls into two groups: 1. The One Christian Church (theirs) and 2. Every other church & religion, where everyone is going to hell.

Lastly, a traditional wedding, with a white dress, ushers, a reception, traditional toasts and dances, is all quite possible regardless of what kind of religion the wedding is. I had all that, and we had a blast. The videotape is a joy to watch again, even years later. You can see from my wedding ceremony that it was our religion, not someone else’s.

Have fun with your wonderful day of Joy and Love! It will be a day to treasure for your whole life-

[aluokaloo]

May you please ask for me?

And thanks for the kind comments.



I mosty certainly will :smileroll

[LadyCelt]

Equinox,

I see you may live by me, cool. Many people on this forum seem to be from our state.

I want to design my dress and ahve my mom make it.

[equinox2]

LadyCelt wrote:



I see you may live by me, cool. Many people on this forum seem to be from our state.

Yeah, there are quite a few! I now live in the Saginaw area, though I've lived in many other parts of the state. I was raised outside Detroit, lived in the U. P. for a few years (college at Michigan Tech), finally settling here. My parent's families are from downtown Detroit & the other family from Grand Rapids. Both originally Catholic families (so I was raised Catholic). Though now, changes have occurred. On the Grand Rapids side, nearly everyone is Catholic, except for a few exceptions, like one family that became Protestant Christian and stopped coming to family reunions. On the Detroit side, nearly everyone has left the Catholic church, many to become "no religion" people, with quite a mix of general moderate Christians, 'no religion"s, Pagans, Atheists, and even one family (my sister's) that is now Jehovah's witness. We pretty much get along great though.

I love Michigan, the wilderness up north, the nice strong seasons, all kinds of good stuff. It's not a coincidence that I settled here after becoming an adult.


I want to design my dress and ahve my mom make it.

Sounds great! Even if only worn once, the wedding dress is a cool thing.

Have a fun day-

[Cyzarine]

Hi...I'm a Catholic Witch (as weird as it may sound) and I had my children baptized at an orthodox church. We had the whole ritualistic ceramony. At least the churches I have gone to in my life, you did not have to promise to raise the children Catholic or even convert yourself. My childrens godparents have different spiritual views. Maybe the priest just didn't care about church laws. I don't see whay they should have a problem...they are pagan too. I mean...come on turning the host and wine into the body and blood of Christ (spiritually), or even the wedding ceremony where you wear a wreath on your head and have your hands tied togeher with vines. Roman Catholics tend to be more strict with converting people. They wouldn't let us baptize our boys because I was Ukranian Catholic. They said that they couldn't. That's another story though.

[equinox2]

Cyzarine wrote:


come on turning the host and wine into the body and blood of Christ (spiritually),

In fact, the official Catholic Doctrine is that the bread and wine literally, really, and completely turn into the body and blood of Christ, not just "spiritually". It's called transubstantiation. You can read about it here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm)

My beliefs are on that topic? - no comment.



They wouldn't let us baptize our boys because I was Ukranian Catholic.

Which is particularly scary since Catholic law is quite clear that anyone, baby or not, who dies without being baptized goes to Hell, period. Thus, stillborn babies or other babies who die before being baptized burn forever. That doctrine has been particularly hard for my mother, who has had a number of stillbirths. I've held my crying mother, assuring her that her babies weren't being tortured day in and day out (because I don't think hell exist for anyone, since I'm not Christian).

There are a few differences between Orthodox and Roman Catholic, but on many points the doctrine is the same, even if it is enforced differently.

[Shanti]

Cyzarine wrote:



In fact, the official Catholic Doctrine is that the bread and wine literally, really, and completely turn into the body and blood of Christ, not just "spiritually". It's called transubstantiation. You can read about it here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm)

My beliefs are on that topic? - no comment.




Which is particularly scary since Catholic law is quite clear that anyone, baby or not, who dies without being baptized goes to Hell, period. Thus, stillborn babies or other babies who die before being baptized burn forever. That doctrine has been particularly hard for my mother, who has had a number of stillbirths. I've held my crying mother, assuring her that her babies weren't being tortured day in and day out (because I don't think hell exist for anyone, since I'm not Christian).

There are a few differences between Orthodox and Roman Catholic, but on many points the doctrine is the same, even if it is enforced differently.
I went to St. Stanislaus grade school for 9 years and we were taught the the unbaptised go to limbo!! :)
The catholic version of not bad but not with god either.

[Cyzarine]

In fact, the official Catholic Doctrine is that the bread and wine literally, really, and completely turn into the body and blood of Christ, not just "spiritually". It's called transubstantiation.

I am not saying that Catholic doctrine does not state it literally. I said that I take it spiritualy. That is why I am a Catholic Witch. I am not fully Catholic or fully Pagan...I blend the two. I understand and know what it is called but for me it is not literal, but a symbol of merging with deity.


Which is particularly scary since Catholic law is quite clear that anyone, baby or not, who dies without being baptized goes to Hell, period. Thus, stillborn babies or other babies who die before being baptized burn forever. That doctrine has been particularly hard for my mother, who has had a number of stillbirths. I've held my crying mother, assuring her that her babies weren't being tortured day in and day out (because I don't think hell exist for anyone, since I'm not Christian).

If you are trying to turn this into a religious battle of who is right...I am sorry, you will not make me do it. I am not here to argue for Catholics for I myself do not follow the typical Catholic faith. Yes, I do believe in baptizing my children but only for the simple fact of blessing them (as they also do in pagan blessings) to keep them safe and welcome them into the family, not from 'going to hell.' My view point on heaven and hell are far from Catholic as well, but that is a different subject.


There are a few differences between Orthodox and Roman Catholic, but on many points the doctrine is the same, even if it is enforced differently.

There are many differances. Orthodox are not accepted by Roman Catholics. Orthodox are not even Catholic but Byzantin. Yes, they may seem similar but if you watched each mass and listened to the words you can tell the differance. Roman Catholics are far more strict the Orthodox. I am not taking sides but please read up on the differance before speaking out against something. For one thing Roman Catholics do not believe that Mary is to be considered a deity. Orthodox believe she is.

[equinox2]

Shanti wrote:

I went to St. Stanislaus grade school for 9 years and we were taught the the unbaptised go to limbo!!

Right. Sorry, my mistake. Thanks for correcting me. I was going by this part of the Catholic doctrine:

IX. NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

Theologians distinguish a twofold necessity, which they call a necessity of means (medii) and a necessity of precept (præcepti), The first (medii) indicates a thing to be so necessary that, if lacking (though inculpably), salvation can not be attained, The second (præcepti) is had when a thing is indeed so necessary that it may not be omitted voluntarily without sin; yet, ignorance of the precept or inability to fulfill it, excuses one from its observance. Baptism is held to be necessary both necessitate medii and præcepti. This doctrine is rounded on the words of Christ. In John, iii, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." Christ makes no exception to this law and it is therefore general in its application, embracing both adults and infants. (from newadvent catholic encyclopedia)

Plus, a priest did tell my mom that, hence her crying over it. That was a few years ago. My mistake, I forgot about limbo. OK, they go to limbo and are not saved.

Cysarine wrote:

I said that I take it spiritualy.

Cool. : )


If you are trying to turn this into a religious battle of who is right

No, no battle. I always want to go with the data, so if I'm wrong on something, I'm glad when someone points that out - that way we all learn. I generally don't enjoy battles, whether I'm right or wrong. I do point out if I think anyone has the facts wrong, and hopefully after that we can all avoid a battle. :smileroll



There are many differances. Orthodox are not accepted by Roman Catholics. ... Yes, they may seem similar but if you watched each mass and listened to the words you can tell the differance.

OK, sorry if I came across wrong. I meant that yes there are significant differences, but there are even bigger differences between either Orthodox or Catholics and, say, the pentecostals or many other Christianities. It's kinda like saying "are cats different from dogs?" Well, sure they are, but they are much more similar to each other than, say, to an iguana. That's why the current leaders of the two groups (RCC and Orthodox) talk with each other about rejoining as one religion. On the other hand, the Pope doesn't discuss that possibility with, say, the LDS Christian church - they are too different.

Or another way to look at it - yep, if you watched each mass you could pick out the differences. But, if went to an evangelical worship service it would be obviously different even if you didn't know the language, and many there would be offended if you even called it a "mass".

So, sorry if I glossed over the very real differences - not my intent.

Take care-

[Cyzarine]

It is ok equinox2...I to can come across in the wrong tone. No, there will be no battle for I do not like battles (unless they are meaningful to me and my family).

[Ron]

Blessings for your Union.

:fofftopic: Some of us are still wondering what 'Godde' is.

[CleftOfLight]

I knew about taking a class/course with the Catholic faith, but didn't know you'd have to raise them Catholic. Would I have to convert too? I have heard of covallidation, but not quite sure what it is. I think its if you aren't Catholic or the ceremony wasn't Cahtolic and without the course, you have to validate the marriage for the church though it is valid by law and by God.

Well i think you have to make communion and confermation to get married in a catholic church,because I made communion but never confermedand my mother told me that if I wanted to get married in a Catholic church I have to make confermation.

[CleftOfLight]

I went to St. Stanislaus grade school for 9 years and we were taught the the unbaptised go to limbo!! :)
The catholic version of not bad but not with god either.

The Vatica itself says that you can belong to any relgion and as long as you are good and faithful,you will be allowed into heaven.

[equinox2]

CleftofLight wrote:



The Vatica itself says that you can belong to any relgion and as long as you are good and faithful,you will be allowed into heaven.


Hey CleftofLight,

I’d be interested to see what the source is for that, since that is different from both what I learned while a Catholic, and what the Catholic webpage says. What I understood is that only those in the Catholic church are saved, except in the case of "invicible ignorance" of the catholic church, in which case you could be saved. If you are aware of the Catholic church, but not in it, it doesn't matter how nice you are, you aren't saved. Is there a reason to think that your statement is accurate, or is it just some rumor you heard?

Thanks-

[equinox2]

Update-

CleftofLight PM'd me to say that a nun he remembers named Sister Emily told him.

I’m sure that sister Emily is a nice person, but a word from a nun (or a priest) is hardly strong evidence, especially when related second-hand. Even assuming she knows what she’s talking about (which is an unreasonable assumption), she may have misunderstood you or you may have misunderstood her. So by repeating unverified information as if it were fact, you can inadvertently spread a falsehood, and that could hurt people.

For example – let’s say I thought I remembered the President saying that this one model of car was very safe. In actuality, though, if driven over 60 mph it explodes. So my friend says he is looking for a safe car, and I say “the president of the US himself says this is a safe car”. Of course, the car is unsafe, but I didn’t bother to check, I just repeated what I thought I remembered. My friend goes by what I said, buys the car, and is incinerated on the highway the next day. Who is responsible for his death? Mostly him, yes, but partly me too.

Or to take an example closer to home. I have a relative who raised her kids to be kind, loving people, and to know that the Bible is a good source of instruction on how to live one’s life. It’s not hard to understand where she got this impression – it is repeated over and over in our society. Her son learned his lessons well. Later, her son (my cousin) decided that the Catholic traditions were not all scriptural, and so to be holy, he had to do exactly what Jesus said to do, which is to abandon one’s family if need be to stay religiously pure. He converted to evangelical Christianity, cut off ties with all of us, and I haven’t seen nor heard from him in over 6 years. So who’s to blame for that? Mostly him, but partly his mother for teaching that the whole Bible must be followed even though she didn’t know exactly what’s in the Bible.

This situation is no different. Ladycelt is asking fair and honest questions about different religions because she is searching for one that is caring and especially doesn’t preach Hell for people outside of that particular church. Cleft has stated that the Vatican says that if you are good you go to heaven even if you are in another religion. He didn’t check up on that, and only when asked did we find out that his only source is hearsay. I’ve heard that from Catholics too, as well as the opposite (that you go to Hell if you are outside the Catholic church, whether you are good or not – that’s what Father William said). Even if what we heard was all in agreement, we shouldn’t just go by rumor, but instead check for ourselves.

This issue is important to Ladycelt, and for good reason. Let’s say that she cares deeply that her religion be accepting of good people of other faiths (which it appears she does). Now, let’s say she goes by what Cleft said, and so becomes Catholic. Further, lets say she eventually has 3 kids, and raises them to know God through the Catholic church. So when Ladycelt is old and dying, surrounded by her 2 sons and a daughter (plus their spouses) and their total of 7 kids, she hears them all concerned because one of the grandkids is thinking of becoming Baptist, and they all know that this would mean that the Baptist grandkid will be tortured in Hell for eternity, so for his own good, they are going to take away all his Baptist stuff. Ladycelt is horrified that her OWN KIDS could be so cruel. She wonders how this could happen when she never wanted to raise her kids that way. How could it have happened, when she knows that the Vatican itself said all you have to do is be good? But the Vatican didn’t say that. It was just a rumor, and now (in our hypothetical story) it's a rumor that has ruined a precious part of Ladycelt’s life because people carelessly repeated it without checking on their information first.

The checking part is easy. Checking a variety of authoritative Catholic sources shows that anyone who knows about the Catholic Church and isn’t in it, is damned to Hell for all eternity. The only non-Catholics who can be saved are those that can claim “extreme ignorance” of the Catholic church. For instance, the Catholic encyclopedia has this:
( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) )

Section IV, The Necessity of Belonging to the Catholic Church:

Incorporation with the Church can alone unite us to the family of the second Adam, and alone can engraft us into the true Vine. Moreover, it is to the Church that Christ has committed those means of grace through which the gifts He earned for men are communicated to them. The Church alone dispenses the sacraments. It alone makes known the light of revealed truth. Outside the Church these gifts cannot be obtained. From all this there is but one conclusion: Union with the Church is not merely one out of various means by which salvation may be obtained: it is the only means.

Catholic Answers ( http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp (http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp) ) has this:


those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

Individual Catholics may often try to spin it one way or the other (for instance, trying to either eliminate the “extreme ignorance” loophole on one hand or trying to expand it to try to save those who do know of the Catholic church from hell), but the bottom line is the same – except for extreme ignorance of the Catholic church, only Catholics are saved. I am not Catholic, and so I don’t believe that, but honesty requires me to accurately say what Catholic Doctrine really is, not to spin it one way or the other to fool you.

As we’ve seen in other threads like this one:
http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=109514 (http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=109514)

Humans often repeat rumors if they like what the rumors say. It would benefit us all to be honest with ourselves and with our friends, and that means checking on rumors before repeating them.

Ladycelt, good luck in your search.

May the stars light your path-

[EponaCapaill]

Really? I thought Catholic marriages had to take place inside a consecrated church. Learn something new every day!
Beat me to it, yes, Catholic marriages must take place in a church.

[star_belfire]

My boyfriend and I have been talking about getting married/handfasted as well. My family is Catholic and nothing would make them happier than a big Catholic wedding but thats not what Tony and I want.

I really don't know what we're going to do.