PDA

View Full Version : Immigrant Evacuees-Falling through cracks.



Danustouch
September 20th, 2005, 12:41 PM
This article addresses the problems of both LEGAL immigrants, and ILLEGAL immigrants in the wake of Katrina. I'm not even going to bother debating in this. My stance has been clearly stated in another (now closed) thread. HOWEVER, I am hoping that this article might open some eyes to the human side of what they are facing. And that those who already feel an immense amount of sympathy for the immigrant population, will also be moved anew by their plight.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9403169/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9403169/)

edited link..sorry.

PaganLibrarian
September 20th, 2005, 02:05 PM
I have sympathy for LEGAL immigrants. I have much less sympathy for ILLEGAL immigrants.

Catiana
September 20th, 2005, 03:02 PM
This is a poll that was on the website for the local newspaper where I live.

Should undocumented immigrants, who sought help after Hurricane Katrina, face deportation?

Yes 83.84%
No 16.16%
Total Votes: 1813

Gwenhwyfar
September 20th, 2005, 03:28 PM
If their illegal send em home.

guess that first guy theyre talking about in your link should have thought twice about "creeping over the Mexican Border"...

Danustouch
September 20th, 2005, 03:37 PM
You live in Arizona, correct? Arizona is of course, in the middle of the heat, with many of the vigilante groups patrolling the border..etc. I expect the rate to be a little higher there, or was this a national survey??

Catiana
September 20th, 2005, 03:51 PM
You live in Arizona, correct? Arizona is of course, in the middle of the heat, with many of the vigilante groups patrolling the border..etc. I expect the rate to be a little higher there, or was this a national survey??


Anyone can go on the website and vote, although I would assume since its a local news website that it is probably local people voting but that isn't specified. The website is http://www.azcentral.com/ (http://www.azcentral.com/)

BeachWitch
September 20th, 2005, 04:17 PM
Ah DT, my love, I knew you would post this article. Shall we dance?

Our first twirl around the floor can even be fun:

In San Antonio, a convoy of 45 Mexican army vehicles rolled into the city with troops and mobile kitchens capable of feeding 14,000 people. Elsewhere in Texas, Catholic Charities of Galveston/Houston doled out $300,000 to immigrant families as of Friday, about $25,000 a day, said Julissa Guerrero, the communications director.
I have no problem with the Mexican Army brining aid to their ex-patriots. I also have no problem with Catholic Charities providing aid.

However, we are still talking about criminals, who have a default position: to avoid authorities at all costs. Why? I don't avoid the authorities at all costs. The authorities are part of the services I expect, services my tax dollars fund. Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from authorities.

Oh.... well.... that last sentence pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? Law Abiding. Citizens. Whoops.

(I do love this dance, I was feeling rather "coitus interruptus" when our last dance was cut short)

PS: LEGAL Immigrants deserve al the help and assistance FEMA and the US Government has to offer.

IvyWitch
September 20th, 2005, 04:25 PM
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time feeling bad for them. Yeah, it sucks that now they can't feed thier families for fear of deportation, but seriously, those are the risks you run by being an ILLEGAL immigrant. They chose to face that risk willingly.

I realize that many of these people are looking for a better life for themselves and the easiest way is to be an illegal citizen in the US because we don't exactly give citizenship papers easy, but really it's not the US' job to fix every country and make it just like ours. It's not our responsibility to take care of people who aren't citizens of the country or pay taxes. Just like Canada said that if US citizens tried to emmigrate to Canada to dodge the draft that was being talked about several months ago, they would have rounded us up and sent us back.

I'm sorry, they get zero sympathy from me.

BeachWitch
September 20th, 2005, 04:28 PM
.......because we don't exactly give citizenship papers easy
Membership Has It's Priviledges.
If it were easy, it wouldn't be so popular!

Suzette
September 20th, 2005, 04:31 PM
You live in Arizona, correct? Arizona is of course, in the middle of the heat, with many of the vigilante groups patrolling the border..etc. I expect the rate to be a little higher there, or was this a national survey??

Of course, because that would be a state on the border, *where the coyotes roam.* And yes, there are many American citizens patrolling American soil, but interestingly enough, the only problems/violence stemmed from the pro-immigrant groups who poked fingers at the ones who weren't guilty of anything more than helping already stretched out border patrols.

And of course the rate will be a *little* higher as they're livng with this epidemic and are as FED up as we are in Southern California!

Going back to topic, I don't have much sympathy for the *illegal* victims of Katrina, except for losing loved ones...

Haerfest Leah
September 20th, 2005, 04:39 PM
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time feeling bad for them. Yeah, it sucks that now they can't feed thier families for fear of deportation, but seriously, those are the risks you run by being an ILLEGAL immigrant. They chose to face that risk willingly.

I realize that many of these people are looking for a better life for themselves and the easiest way is to be an illegal citizen in the US because we don't exactly give citizenship papers easy, but really it's not the US' job to fix every country and make it just like ours. It's not our responsibility to take care of people who aren't citizens of the country or pay taxes. Just like Canada said that if US citizens tried to emmigrate to Canada to dodge the draft that was being talked about several months ago, they would have rounded us up and sent us back.

I'm sorry, they get zero sympathy from me.

Bravo _handclapp

And to quote Pagan Librarian
I have sympathy for LEGAL immigrants. I have much less sympathy for ILLEGAL immigrants.

My thoughts exactly.

Suzette
September 20th, 2005, 04:46 PM
And, wanting a better life for yourself and children, but teaching them this is the way to go about it?

Good. I'm glad these children are learning what happens first-hand when you lie and cheat, cause they sure as hell aren't learning it from Madre and Padre.

If you want to raise children who are considerate and respectful to their country, live by example...

Gwenhwyfar
September 20th, 2005, 05:09 PM
And, wanting a better life for yourself and children, but teaching them this is the way to go about it?

Good. I'm glad these children are learning what happens first-hand when you lie and cheat, cause they sure as hell aren't learning it from Madre and Padre.

If you want to raise children who are considerate and respectful to their country, live by example...

And that is the most logical and smart post Iv read on the matter to date. Way to say it Suzette!

Danustouch
September 20th, 2005, 05:50 PM
Beachwitch,

A sole reply: I'm not dancing, because it's not a game to me, or something I take lightly. Alot of people I care about, and love, are effected by what happens to the immigrant community. So i'm not going to be drawn into a debate. I already said that. You already know my opinions. So..please do not address your comments to me. Thanks.

PaganLibrarian
September 20th, 2005, 05:55 PM
I care what happens to the immigrant community, providing those immigrants are in the country legally. If, however, they are in the country illegally, than all I care is that they be sent back wherever they came from until they can learn to follow our laws, like the legal immigrants. The problem I see is when someone lumps the legal immigrants and the illegal aliens together in one group.

BeachWitch
September 20th, 2005, 07:24 PM
INA: ACT 274 - BRINGING IN AND HARBORING CERTAIN ALIENS
Sec. 274. [8 U.S.C. 1324] :
http://uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/slb/slb-1/slb-22/slb-7495?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm (http://uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/slb/slb-1/slb-22/slb-7495?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm)

(a) Criminal Penalties.-
(1)(A) Any person who-
(iii) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation;
v) 1/ (I) engages in any conspiracy to commit any of the preceding acts, or
(II) aids or abets the commission of any of the preceding acts,
(B) A person who violates subparagraph (A) shall, for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs-
(ii) in the case of a violation of subparagraph (A)(ii), (iii), (iv), or (v)(II),4/ be fined under title 18, United States Code, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both;


********************
Prison sentence, forfeiture of property, loss of vehicle..... wow!! Risking it all for an illegal.
Aiding and Abetting a criminal is a crime.

HeavensHope
September 20th, 2005, 07:37 PM
my parents were immigrants (at one point all of our forefathers were) once but they're american citizens now(took the tests a long time ago). My parents paid their dues, took the tests and did everything the LEGAL way. (This was before the immigration laws became so strict, FYI: I was born here)There are ILLEGAL immigrants who are benefiting from our country and taking away from our citizens. Of course if they're in any sort of danger I say help them anyways, because it's the humane thing to do, but I would vote to send them back home. I do understand that it's not as easy as I had thought it was to become a citizen. (Especially now)Sometimes you have to be a little shady in order to become an american citizen. My ex bf married a girl from china in order to get her here (it's one of those things, in return she paid him). Anyway, there are strict rules about how long people can stay here and how they have to stay here for a certain amount of time in order to be able to take a citizenship tests. That's the hard part, being able to stay...you cant work without a work permit and that's really hard to get. I would just leave it up to the authorities. Certain countries are really strict about having their people leave too.
It gets complicated too if illegal immigrants come here and they have kids because technically their kids would be an American and what happens if their parents get deported? what happens to their children? It's a tough call.

Danustouch
September 20th, 2005, 07:50 PM
Is that a threat, BW?

PaganLibrarian
September 20th, 2005, 07:52 PM
Sometimes you have to be a little shady in order to become an american citizen.

Only because we've allowed things to get to where you have to be shady. And you don't have to be shady, because plenty of people do it the right way every year.


That's the hard part, being able to stay...you cant work without a work permit and that's really hard to get.

If you come into the US the legal way, you have a work visa (green card). That's your work permit.


Certain countries are really strict about having their people leave too.

There are provisions for claiming asylum if the person's home country will punish them for leaving, or punish them if they go back.


It gets complicated too if illegal immigrants come here and they have kids because technically their kids would be an American and what happens if their parents get deported? what happens to their children? It's a tough call.

Not to me. All we need is to change the citizenship laws to say that if you are born of parents who were in the country illegally at the time of your birth, you are not a US citizen. Then the kids go back with mom and dad. That would solve the problem they have around here of near term women hopping the border just so junior will be born in the US.

Catiana
September 20th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Not to me. All we need is to change the citizenship laws to say that if you are born of parents who were in the country illegally at the time of your birth, you are not a US citizen. Then the kids go back with mom and dad. That would solve the problem they have around here of near term women hopping the border just so junior will be born in the US.



That's exactly what I think too.

Romani Vixen
September 21st, 2005, 04:43 AM
It is truly, truly unfortunate that these people got hurt.

They did come to the us under conditions that dictated that they wouldn't get help. If I sneak into someone's old barn, I can't get mad at them when it falls down on me.

Also... it's Karma. The result of the action of comming into the US (i'm sure the circumstances had something to do with where they ended up). Had they been at home, under possibly worse daily living circumstances, they wouldn't have been in the way, but they'd probably be way more comfortable now.

All in all.. Sucks *big time*... but the world aint all fuzzy and light.

Kaylara
September 21st, 2005, 07:18 AM
That's not karma.

Galaxia
September 21st, 2005, 09:01 AM
Ω

Aidron
September 21st, 2005, 09:24 AM
It is truly, truly unfortunate that these people got hurt.

They did come to the us under conditions that dictated that they wouldn't get help. If I sneak into someone's old barn, I can't get mad at them when it falls down on me.

Also... it's Karma. The result of the action of comming into the US (i'm sure the circumstances had something to do with where they ended up). Had they been at home, under possibly worse daily living circumstances, they wouldn't have been in the way, but they'd probably be way more comfortable now.

All in all.. Sucks *big time*... but the world aint all fuzzy and light.


Karma affects what happens to you in the next life. This is not karma. :rolleyes:

PaganLibrarian
September 21st, 2005, 12:01 PM
Ummm...that's not necessarily true. In some definitions, yes, karma happens in the next life. There are sects of buddism, though, in which there is no set time period for the results to appear.

See Here (http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/freenet/rootdir/menus/sigs/religion/buddhism/introduction/truths/karma2.html)


In Buddhist teaching, the law of karma, says only this: `for every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according as its cause was skillful or unskillful.' A skillful event is one that is not accompanied by craving, resistance or delusions; an unskillful event is one that is accompanied by any one of those things.

Notice no mention of the next life. So it all depends on which definition of Karma you choose to accept. By this definition, illegal aliens coming into the US and getting caught in Katrina could indeed be a result of karma.

DragonsChest
September 21st, 2005, 12:57 PM
It's so simple, really. I don't understand all the fuss.

1) You come to the US as a legal immigrant, with all your papers in order and T's crossed and I's dotted: you get the full benefits of our system. Mazel Tov. Welcome to America! You have the same rights now that I do: to try and make a great life for yourself.

2) You come to the US illegally, you get deported and asked to try again, legally. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200, just go home.

3) You are an illegal and suffering the devastation of (fill in the blank tragedy), well, shucky darn. Sorry, you are not eligible for aid from the US until you are a legal immigrant. If you weren't here illegally, then you wouldn't have been caught in the (fill in the blank tragedy) in the first place.

4) You are pregnant, illegal, and you hop the border into the US so that your little darling can automatically be born a US citizen. NO. You and your offspring are still illegals and you get a one way ticket back to wherever you came from. Take your child with you.

5) My husband was born an English citizen. When he married me, he had to prove that the job he was going to have in the US was not going to be taking a job away from someone who was already a citizen. He did so. He got his green card. We moved back to the states. He spent years on the list waiting to become a US citizen, took the classes and the test, and he made it. If one person can do it legally, then everyone can.

Sympathy for the illegals? Not really. They shouldn't be here. They need to get out and try to become a citizen correctly.

Now, is that really so hard to understand????

Catiana
September 21st, 2005, 01:03 PM
Ummm...that's not necessarily true. In some definitions, yes, karma happens in the next life. There are sects of buddism, though, in which there is no set time period for the results to appear.

See Here (http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/freenet/rootdir/menus/sigs/religion/buddhism/introduction/truths/karma2.html)



Notice no mention of the next life. So it all depends on which definition of Karma you choose to accept. By this definition, illegal aliens coming into the US and getting caught in Katrina could indeed be a result of karma.


I agree, I definitaly believe that we can get karma in the present for our actions in the present.

PaganLibrarian
September 21st, 2005, 02:47 PM
4) You are pregnant, illegal, and you hop the border into the US so that your little darling can automatically be born a US citizen. NO. You and your offspring are still illegals and you get a one way ticket back to wherever you came from. Take your child with you.

Ideally, this is how it should work. However, under current law, if you are born in the US, you are a US citizen, even if your parents were illegals. That leads to a situation where pregnant mexican women will attempt to get into the US illegally so that they can have their baby in the US. They know that the baby will be a legal US citizen, and under those circumstances, the mother will probably get her green card.

DragonsChest
September 21st, 2005, 02:48 PM
Ideally, this is how it should work. However, under current law, if you are born in the US, you are a US citizen, even if your parents were illegals. That leads to a situation where pregnant mexican women will attempt to get into the US illegally so that they can have their baby in the US. They know that the baby will be a legal US citizen, and under those circumstances, the mother will probably get her green card.

Annoying, isn't it? :ahhhhhhh:

PaganLibrarian
September 21st, 2005, 02:49 PM
Yep.

BeachWitch
September 21st, 2005, 02:50 PM
Ideally, this is how it should work. However, under current law, if you are born in the US, you are a US citizen, even if your parents were illegals. That leads to a situation where pregnant mexican women will attempt to get into the US illegally so that they can have their baby in the US. They know that the baby will be a legal US citizen, and under those circumstances, the mother will probably get her green card.

Welcome to the mass hysteria currently underway in California. This is true for Chinese illegal immigrants as well as Mexican. Gosh, California is a great place to live!

BeachWitch
September 21st, 2005, 02:56 PM
Sympathy for the illegals? Not really. They shouldn't be here. They need to get out and try to become a citizen correctly.

Now, is that really so hard to understand????

I don't give out enough Karma to be eligible to give you any for this post. So lite up the green for me will ya?

DragonsChest
September 21st, 2005, 03:09 PM
I don't give out enough Karma to be eligible to give you any for this post. So lite up the green for me will ya?

Thank you.

Suzette
September 22nd, 2005, 01:24 AM
"Immigrant Evacuees-Falling through cracks."


My thoughts are, what about all the REAL PEOPLE who fell through the cracks????? The poor and impoverishd AMERICAN cititizens who are now dealing with insurance companies, and FEMA........ BS.

Zibblsnrt
September 22nd, 2005, 04:12 AM
My thoughts are, what about all the REAL PEOPLE who fell through the cracks????? The poor and impoverishd AMERICAN cititizens ...

Excuse me? Excuse me?

What kind of pathetic, spiteful, dehumanizing crap is this?

Real people? Real people?!

Suddenly, only the five percent of people out there who hold American citizenship are real people? What, the rest of us aren't really people now?

...

I'm sorry. While I'm sure the rest of us pale, not-quite-real facsimiles of human beings should be offended by such a crass, patronizing and bigoted statement as the one you just spewed here, I suppose your judgement is both accurate and fair. Perhaps I shouldn't be insulted by being denied something I'm apparently not supposed to have, being something other than a real person.

I, and the rest of the sad and benighted otherclass, imprisoned by our mere delusions of humanity, will do better in the future and will attempt to know our own, limited role and significance.

Perhaps someday, if we behave ourselves and try really hard, we might be allowed to become real people too. It worked for Pinocchio, after a fashion.

~*Ginger*~
September 22nd, 2005, 07:13 AM
Excuse me? Excuse me?

What kind of pathetic, spiteful, dehumanizing crap is this?

Real people? Real people?!

Suddenly, only the five percent of people out there who hold American citizenship are real people? What, the rest of us aren't really people now?

...

I'm sorry. While I'm sure the rest of us pale, not-quite-real facsimiles of human beings should be offended by such a crass, patronizing and bigoted statement as the one you just spewed here, I suppose your judgement is both accurate and fair. Perhaps I shouldn't be insulted by being denied something I'm apparently not supposed to have, being something other than a real person.

I, and the rest of the sad and benighted otherclass, imprisoned by our mere delusions of humanity, will do better in the future and will attempt to know our own, limited role and significance.

Perhaps someday, if we behave ourselves and try really hard, we might be allowed to become real people too. It worked for Pinocchio, after a fashion.

It's alright Zibblsnrt.
It's a hopeless cause with some of these.

*thinking some here may need to be relocated to some far off galaxy*

BTW...

I give karma points 'Just because I can :woot:'
LOL!

DragonsChest
September 22nd, 2005, 07:16 AM
Perhaps someday, if we behave ourselves and try really hard, we might be allowed to become real people too. It worked for Pinocchio, after a fashion.

Although I know this post wasn't directed at me, I feel that I could help you understand what I believe Suzette's post might have really meant. This is my take on it, not the author's, so I could be totally off base.

If you work really hard, and become a legal immigrant, then you can be a real American citizen, a "real person". If you are illegal, then you are not a "real American citizen", and you need to go back to your country of origin.

Small wooden boys have nothing to do with it, it has to do with the person's legal vs illegal status in this country.

Eldric_Dragonsblood
September 22nd, 2005, 07:34 AM
Just a point:

Both Mexico and Canada have similar systems, requirements, limits, and methods of punishment/dealing with illegal immigrants as the US immigration system.

Take that as you will.

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 08:51 AM
If you work really hard, and become a legal immigrant, then you can be a real American citizen, a "real person".


So you explain a stupid statement by repeating it. Nice.

Being a "real" american citizen does not make you a real person. Being born as a human being does. No political distinctions needed. And I don't know about you, but when other people are in trouble, the right thing to do is help them, not dehumanize them and tell them to go die in a ditch somewhere out of our sight so we're not too disturbed by them.
That too is being a real person. Telling someone that based on a nationality that they're not entitled to live, or eat, or have any basic human rights is horrific and wrong. Help them first, figure out who's legal and who's not later. Right now the important thing is helping out real people who are really suffering.

DragonsChest
September 22nd, 2005, 08:53 AM
So you explain a stupid statement by repeating it. Nice.

Being a "real" american citizen does not make you a real person. Being born as a human being does. No political distinctions needed. And I don't know about you, but when other people are in trouble, the right thing to do is help them, not dehumanize them and tell them to go die in a ditch somewhere out of our sight so we're not too disturbed by them.
That too is being a real person. Telling someone that based on a nationality that they're not entitled to live, or eat, or have any basic human rights is horrific and wrong. Help them first, figure out who's legal and who's not later. Right now the important thing is helping out real people who are really suffering.

I thought my response was very civil and polite. *shrugs* They shouldn't even be here in the first place, if they are illegals.

Cinnamon Girl
September 22nd, 2005, 09:07 AM
If you work really hard, and become a legal immigrant, then you can be a real American citizen, a "real person". If you are illegal, then you are not a "real American citizen", and you need to go back to your country of origin.

I really can't believe you're defending that asinine comment, DC.

I am a permanent resident of the US, and although not yet a US citizen, let me assure you that I am very much a 'REAL PERSON'. Illegal/Legal has to to with nationality, not humanity. :goodgrief

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 09:08 AM
Who cares? How does that make them any less worthy or any less a real person? And it's not just the illegal immigrants who are having issues, it's the legal ones as well. Are you willing to let people suffer and die because of nationality and red tape?

DragonsChest
September 22nd, 2005, 09:14 AM
I really can't believe you're defending that asinine comment, DC.

I am a permanent resident of the US, and although not yet a US citizen, let me assure you that I am very much a 'REAL PERSON'. Illegal/Legal has to to with nationality, not humanity. :goodgrief


If you are a permanent resident, in the process of getting your citizenship, like my husband did so long ago, or even if you don't want to change your citizenship but just want to live in the US legally, then I support you 100%. You have done what you are supposed to do to live in this country. When I married my husband and moved to the UK, I went through all the proper paperwork. I was not there illegally.

I support everyone who is here legally.

LacyRoze
September 22nd, 2005, 09:16 AM
"Immigrant Evacuees-Falling through cracks."


My thoughts are, what about all the REAL PEOPLE who fell through the cracks????? The poor and impoverishd AMERICAN cititizens who are now dealing with insurance companies, and FEMA........ BS.

Real people?? Human beings are "real people" no matter their nationality or immigrant status.

As for the comment that they shouldn't be here in the first place, while this may be true the fact is they are here and they were in the middle of this disaster as well. How about we get thru this disaster and the one looming (Rita) and then we fight over who does and doesn't deserve our help. I'm amazed at the lack of compassion being shown. IMHO, when it's a matter of helping people after a disaster, it doesn't matter what their status is. They are human beings suffering and they deserve help...

DragonsChest
September 22nd, 2005, 09:16 AM
Who cares? How does that make them any less worthy or any less a real person? And it's not just the illegal immigrants who are having issues, it's the legal ones as well. Are you willing to let people suffer and die because of nationality and red tape?

No. I have never said that legal immigrants should be left out in the cold. I have always maintained that illegal immigrants should be helped to the border and sent home.

BTW, I sent you a PM a few days ago, Kay, asking how you were getting along in the Netherlands, and if you had been learning Dutch, and just general chitchat... did you get that PM? I haven't had a response. I wished you and Xen all the best, and was wondering how you were two were.

BeachWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 09:47 AM
Are you willing to let people suffer and die because of nationality and red tape?
The various wartorn countries in Africa comes to mind in that statement. Apparently, only the US is responsible and held accountable for inhumane treatment of criminals infiltrating it's borders.

Look, Suzette made a dumb comment. She said real "people" when she meant to say real "citizens". It was an honest mistake. But because she is sitting over here on the "She's Such a Bitch" couch, everyone jumps on her.

I find it interesting that those individuals on MW who have openly admitted to breaking the law and have committed multiple felonies by aiding, abetting and harboring illegal immigrants within the United States are patted on the back for their criminal behavior.

Carry on. Throw rotten tomatoes and cabage at us. We are so horrible for believing in the system of laws which make up our government.

ravenmyst
September 22nd, 2005, 09:55 AM
Illegal immigrants should be helped, then sent to their country till they can come here legally, period.

Mithrea
September 22nd, 2005, 10:01 AM
Ahhhh reminds me of philosophy class. Poor, poor Antigone. What *do* we do when the laws are unjust? Do we blindly follow them because they are the law? Do we discuss them, and try to influence those who make the law so that appropriate changes are made? Do we snipe at each other on a message board community so that nothing gets done?

Don't argue about who is more criminal or lawabiding. Some of us know that just because it's a law doesn't make it right and just because it's right, doesn't mean we have laws to make people do it.

:bouncysmi


The various wartorn countries in Africa comes to mind in that statement. Apparently, only the US is responsible and held accountable for inhumane treatment of criminals infiltrating it's borders.

Look, Suzette made a dumb comment. She said real "people" when she meant to say real "citizens". It was an honest mistake. But because she is sitting over here on the "She's Such a Bitch" couch, everyone jumps on her.

I find it interesting that those individuals on MW who have openly admitted to breaking the law and have committed multiple felonies by aiding, abetting and harboring illegal immigrants within the United States are patted on the back for their criminal behavior.

Carry on. Throw rotten tomatoes and cabage at us. We are so horrible for believing in the system of laws which make up our government.

IvyWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 10:07 AM
Who cares? How does that make them any less worthy or any less a real person? And it's not just the illegal immigrants who are having issues, it's the legal ones as well. Are you willing to let people suffer and die because of nationality and red tape?

It has nothing to do with nationality, and I'm surprised you want to make that the issue. I could care less if an illegal immigrant was from Mexico or France.

As far as red tape goes, it really isn't as simple as that. The US is (normally) glad to give help to other countries when they are in a crisis, right? No problem with that. But, the country giving aid to people living in the country illegally instead of legal citizens is like the US calling up Cuba and saying "Hey, I want you to pick out ten poor and disparraged families and we'll send them some money to help them back on thier feet." Why is it our responsibility? This is a country, not a charity sponsorship program.

Why should these people be rewarded for breaking the law? I'm not saying that if they're laying on the ground dying we should look at them and walk away, but if they are not paying taxes and all of that good stuff, why shouldn't someone who is get the money instead? I say help them to the border and give the aid money to the legal citizens who deserve it.

IvyWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 10:15 AM
Ahhhh reminds me of philosophy class. Poor, poor Antigone. What *do* we do when the laws are unjust? Do we blindly follow them because they are the law? Do we discuss them, and try to influence those who make the law so that appropriate changes are made? Do we snipe at each other on a message board community so that nothing gets done?

Don't argue about who is more criminal or lawabiding. Some of us know that just because it's a law doesn't make it right and just because it's right, doesn't mean we have laws to make people do it.

:bouncysmi

So, are you saying that it's perfectly OK for our government to be spending money to make sure that thousands upon thousands of stowaways and freeloaders are given all the benefits of people who actually paid for thier tickets?

The laws are unjust, huh? Ok, let's think about this.

Personally I think the US is really lax about illegal immigrants compared to other countries. What other country can you go to and buy a permanant house and get a job without any sort of citizenship papers or even speaking the language? I'm sure in some other countries it's possible, but certainly not as widespread as it is here. These same people are also the ones who take away jobs from taxpaying citizens. I am sure that they are just trying to help thier families and make a better life for themselves, but really that's a poor excuse for purposefully being dead weight on society.

Mithrea
September 22nd, 2005, 10:29 AM
You read an awful lot into my comments, hon :)

My reply was specifically in response to BW's comments about other members supposed felonies. That's why I *quoted her*. ;) :)


So, are you saying that it's perfectly OK for our government to be spending money to make sure that thousands upon thousands of stowaways and freeloaders are given all the benefits of people who actually paid for thier tickets?

The laws are unjust, huh? Ok, let's think about this.

Personally I think the US is really lax about illegal immigrants compared to other countries. What other country can you go to and buy a permanant house and get a job without any sort of citizenship papers or even speaking the language? I'm sure in some other countries it's possible, but certainly not as widespread as it is here. These same people are also the ones who take away jobs from taxpaying citizens. I am sure that they are just trying to help thier families and make a better life for themselves, but really that's a poor excuse for purposefully being dead weight on society.

IvyWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 10:48 AM
You read an awful lot into my comments, hon :)

My reply was specifically in response to BW's comments about other members supposed felonies. That's why I *quoted her*. ;) :)

Yeah, but the statement that "sometimes the laws are unjust" doesn't really apply to either the laws regarding illegal immigrants or those that choose to sheild them from the government.

Mithrea
September 22nd, 2005, 10:53 AM
Yeah, but the statement that "sometimes the laws are unjust" doesn't really apply to either the laws regarding illegal immigrants or those that choose to sheild them from the government.

It may or may not. Obviously you don't think so. Others might disagree. That is my point.

Suzette
September 22nd, 2005, 10:53 AM
"Immigrant Evacuees-Falling through cracks."


My thoughts are, what about all the REAL PEOPLE who fell through the cracks????? The poor and impoverishd AMERICAN cititizens who are now dealing with insurance companies, and FEMA........ BS.


Oh good freeking Gods. Of COURSE I meant CITIZENS....

Jeez, should I just rope myself to the stake now? Sheesh.

DragonsChest
September 22nd, 2005, 10:55 AM
Oh good freeking Gods. Of COURSE I meant CITIZENS....

Jeez, should I just rope myself to the stake now? Sheesh.


I'm sure that would be appreciated. ;)

IvyWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 10:55 AM
As for the comment that they shouldn't be here in the first place, while this may be true the fact is they are here and they were in the middle of this disaster as well. How about we get thru this disaster and the one looming (Rita) and then we fight over who does and doesn't deserve our help. I'm amazed at the lack of compassion being shown. IMHO, when it's a matter of helping people after a disaster, it doesn't matter what their status is. They are human beings suffering and they deserve help...[/color][/i]

Think about it this way.....if all these illegal immigrants had been people who were on a lovely vacation in New Orleans when disaster struck, what would the government have done? Given them a voucher for thier lost luggage and a ticket on the next plane home.

So, why is it such a black film on humanitarianism to send them back where they belong? Why should people who are actual citizens get less aid to rebuild thier lives? So the government can keep supporting dead weight?

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 11:08 AM
Why should these people be rewarded for breaking the law? I'm not saying that if they're laying on the ground dying we should look at them and walk away, but if they are not paying taxes and all of that good stuff, why shouldn't someone who is get the money instead? I say help them to the border and give the aid money to the legal citizens who deserve it.

Hurray! We're dying! No, no, don't help, just tell us we deserve it because we're immigrants. (because if you read the original post, it's happening to legal immigrants as well.)



It has nothing to do with nationality, and I'm surprised you want to make that the issue. I could care less if an illegal immigrant was from Mexico or France.

It has everything to do with nationality. If you're saying that an immigrant is not a 'real' person until they become a legal american citizen it has everything to do with nationality, or rather, the exclusion of nationality.



No. I have never said that legal immigrants should be left out in the cold. I have always maintained that illegal immigrants should be helped to the border and sent home.

I have no problem with being told that they need to return home and come back legally. I have every problem with people suggesting that immigrants, legal or otherwise are less than human and should not be helped when a disaster effects them.

(And I'm sorry I haven't returned your pm, I've been sick the past week and not on the computer very much.)



The various wartorn countries in Africa comes to mind in that statement. Apparently, only the US is responsible and held accountable for inhumane treatment of criminals infiltrating it's borders.

Look, Suzette made a dumb comment. She said real "people" when she meant to say real "citizens". It was an honest mistake. But because she is sitting over here on the "She's Such a Bitch" couch, everyone jumps on her.

I find it interesting that those individuals on MW who have openly admitted to breaking the law and have committed multiple felonies by aiding, abetting and harboring illegal immigrants within the United States are patted on the back for their criminal behavior.

Carry on. Throw rotten tomatoes and cabage at us. We are so horrible for believing in the system of laws which make up our government.

I would first tell you that Suzette said "real people", not "real citizens". And even saying something like that as a mistake is indicitive of a horrible dehumanizing point of view. It's not an honest mistake. The phrase 'real people' and 'real citizen' have very different meanings and the twain should not be confused because the former is a terrible dehumanizing phrase, and the second only denotes legal status in a given country.

(And right now we're not discussing African countries and their atrocities, we're discussing America. You're welcome to start a thread on that as well, but trying to divert attention to a bigger bad guy is not the point here. We're discussing the problems in America right now, not looking around for someone we can point the finger at and go " but we're not as bad as them.")

And dependant on the situation, yes, I'd be proud to be harboring illegal immigrants as well. If they need help, then they need help, period. They're human and I don't care who they are or where they're from. Everything else comes secondary to their need for help.

Perhaps you're forgetting that America is my country too. And the American government is a Democracy and a Republic, which means it's a work in progress. Things that worked two hundred years ago don't work any more and are therefore changed. The system of laws is constantly changing to suit the needs of the people at any given time, which is how the people who started our country wanted it. Mitigating circumstances are always taken into consideration in any court of law.

And as a country of immigrants, I'd think that we wouldn't be pointing fingers at present day immigrants and saying "You're not a 'real citizen" of the United States and thusly you are not afforded the same rights as 'real people', like us born and bred american citizens, go die quietly in a ditch please. Don't bother us with your talk of eating, and having clothing. Just go." I'm reminded of last December when a tsunami wiped out more than 300,000 people in various countries, and america yawned and said "You should have prepared better. Besides, if you think that's bad... We lost 5000 people four years ago in a terrorist attack."

As an american, and with the overinflated ego that permeates american society, you would think that people would recognize that with great strength comes great responsibility to those who are weaker than them.

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 11:16 AM
Think about it this way.....if all these illegal immigrants had been people who were on a lovely vacation in New Orleans when disaster struck, what would the government have done? Given them a voucher for thier lost luggage and a ticket on the next plane home.

So, why is it such a black film on humanitarianism to send them back where they belong? Why should people who are actual citizens get less aid to rebuild thier lives? So the government can keep supporting dead weight?

If they'd been on vacation in New Orleans, which would first need to be established, they'd probably still be spending several weeks with that fact trying to be verified. During that time, they would still need to be receiving aid just in order to survive.

Why should actual citizens get aid to begin with? I mean, after all, they were stupid enough to live there, knowing the risks that were entailed. I mean, why shouldn't we just leave them all to their fate, citizen or not? (BTW, for those who are wondering, that's sarcasm.)

IvyWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 11:18 AM
Hurray! We're dying! No, no, don't help, just tell us we deserve it because we're immigrants. (because if you read the original post, it's happening to legal immigrants as well.)

Well, the medical system itself isn't exactly ideal anyway. There are plenty of non-immigrant citizens who don't get proper medical treatment either, even when not in a disaster situation.


I have no problem with being told that they need to return home and come back legally. I have every problem with people suggesting that immigrants, legal or otherwise are less than human and should not be helped when a disaster effects them.

I don't believe anyone has said that the immigrants who are here legally shouldn't get help. And, the people who aren't here legally should get help too - help them go back to thier own country until they are prepared to do it the right way.

IvyWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 11:21 AM
Why should actual citizens get aid to begin with? I mean, after all, they were stupid enough to live there, knowing the risks that were entailed. I mean, why shouldn't we just leave them all to their fate, citizen or not? (BTW, for those who are wondering, that's sarcasm.)

Ok, so while we're at it, why don't we gather up several million dollars and start a sponsorship program. Let's sponsor 10 disparraged families from 10 countries for a year. How humanitarian. What about the Amerian citizens and government programs that could use that money? Who cares about those programs and those people, we're trying to be humanitarian!
In case you were wondering, that was sarcasm too.

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 11:23 AM
Funds that would be very much available if our government wasn't too busy invading other countries! (How many billions have we spent that we could have used for much better things?)

IvyWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 11:26 AM
Funds that would be very much available if our government wasn't too busy invading other countries! (How many billions have we spent that we could have used for much better things?)

Which is actually a completely different issue, because then we'd start arguing about who does and who doesn't agree with which particular war, and how wisely the government is spending money period.

LacyRoze
September 22nd, 2005, 11:29 AM
So the government can keep supporting dead weight?

Tell me where I said we should keep supporting them. I never said that. I said the fact is they are here and they deserve help during a disaster...

DragonsChest
September 22nd, 2005, 11:31 AM
Well, the medical system itself isn't exactly ideal anyway. There are plenty of non-immigrant citizens who don't get proper medical treatment either, even when not in a disaster situation. True, there are many citizens of this country who don't get the medical care they need. Who are their advocates?




I don't believe anyone has said that the immigrants who are here legally shouldn't get help. And, the people who aren't here legally should get help too - help them go back to thier own country until they are prepared to do it the right way. Exactly. Well said.

~*Ginger*~
September 22nd, 2005, 11:34 AM
Jeez, should I just rope myself to the stake now? Sheesh.
Awww, now...
Hopelessness doesn't mean loveless!

We love ya anyway!
:drinking:

PaganLibrarian
September 22nd, 2005, 11:37 AM
I said the fact is they are here and they deserve help during a disaster...

And the help illegal aliens should get is a ride back to wherever they came to the US illegally from.

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 11:37 AM
Which is actually a completely different issue, because then we'd start arguing about who does and who doesn't agree with which particular war, and how wisely the government is spending money period.

Oh no, I was answering your statement. We'd be able to do just what you suggested, if our government wasn't so busy invading other countries and trying to install puppet governments around the world. We could help all of the Americans that needed help too, if we felt like doing it. But who cares to do such things when some of the people that we might help aren't really human anyways.

You're all looking at the word immigrant and thinking illegal. Again, re-read the original post. It's not just the illegal immigrants who are involved here. It is people who are legally there and are having problems. So, those people wind up being lumped in with the illegal immigrants, and are being mistreated. (And no one should be getting mistreated.)

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 11:40 AM
True, there are many citizens of this country who don't get the medical care they need. Who are their advocates?


Their advocates are their senators and congress men and women who should be creating laws and programs that allow them to have adequate healthcare. If they don't impress that upon their delegates, or if their delegates don't do that, they they shouldn't be re-elected, and the people should get in leaders who will do it.

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 11:42 AM
And the help illegal aliens should get is a ride back to wherever they came to the US illegally from.

Once it can be determined whether or not they are here illegally, and in the meantime they should be getting the same support that everyone else effected by the disaster is getting.

LacyRoze
September 22nd, 2005, 11:43 AM
And the help illegal aliens should get is a ride back to wherever they came to the US illegally from.

I personally have no problem with this. Buy them a plane ticket, at least they are being gotten out of the affected areas. To me this is help. I know some will not agree and that's ok. I'm just saying that during times of disaster people need help, all people. Whether it's giving them a meal, some clothes and buying them a ticket or whatever. They still deserve to be treated as human beings...Have a nice day...

PaganLibrarian
September 22nd, 2005, 11:43 AM
Believe it or not, figuring out if they are here illegally is about a two minute procedure.

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 11:52 AM
That's bull honkey. I know, because they can't even tell whether or not I'm legally an american citizen in two minutes and I was born in America on a Navy base.

IvyWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 11:59 AM
Oh no, I was answering your statement. We'd be able to do just what you suggested, if our government wasn't so busy invading other countries and trying to install puppet governments around the world. We could help all of the Americans that needed help too, if we felt like doing it. But who cares to do such things when some of the people that we might help aren't really human anyways.

I really hate it when people put words in my mouth. Can you please point out to me where in the crap I said they weren't human beings? Because I don't remember saying that. I remember someone else saying such, but I don't remember repeating it OR agreeing with it.


You're all looking at the word immigrant and thinking illegal. Again, re-read the original post. It's not just the illegal immigrants who are involved here. It is people who are legally there and are having problems. So, those people wind up being lumped in with the illegal immigrants, and are being mistreated. (And no one should be getting mistreated.)

It has been stated over and over and over again ad nauseum that legal immigrants should be getting help. It sucks that they are not. But the conversation has drifted into whether or not the ILLEGAL immigrants should be getting aid. Nobody here is saying that legal and illegal immigrants should be given the same treatment. Really I think by saying that everyone in this thread is assuming that all immigrants are illegal you're really showing you haven't been paying attention to the rest of the freakin thread.

PaganLibrarian
September 22nd, 2005, 12:02 PM
That's bull honkey. I know, because they can't even tell whether or not I'm legally an american citizen in two minutes and I was born in America on a Navy base.

Whatever you say. I'll tell the Phoenix cops they aren't able to do what they've been doing for years..

Dave the Druid
September 22nd, 2005, 12:08 PM
Just a point:

Both Mexico and Canada have similar systems, requirements, limits, and methods of punishment/dealing with illegal immigrants as the US immigration system.

Take that as you will.

Now see what you've done?!

We need more immigrants from just the standpoint fast food. We need more diversity. I'm tired of burgers and chips.

Kaylara
September 22nd, 2005, 12:30 PM
It has been stated over and over and over again ad nauseum that legal immigrants should be getting help. It sucks that they are not. But the conversation has drifted into whether or not the ILLEGAL immigrants should be getting aid. Nobody here is saying that legal and illegal immigrants should be given the same treatment. Really I think by saying that everyone in this thread is assuming that all immigrants are illegal you're really showing you haven't been paying attention to the rest of the freakin thread.

Go back and reread the "freaking thread" yourself. About the point where it starts to devolve into "immigrants are subhuman". My post was an attempt to get the thread back on track to before people decided to state such stupidity.

No one has given a decent reason yet as to why anyone involved in the disaster, legal or non-legal, should be denied aid, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen a lot of compassion for one group of people, with an attitude of "you got what you deserved" for a similar group of people who don't happen to have a stupid stamp in their passport, or a stupid piece of paper.

Jenne
September 22nd, 2005, 12:36 PM
No one has given a decent reason yet as to why anyone involved in the disaster, legal or non-legal, should be denied aid, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen a lot of compassion for one group of people, with an attitude of "you got what you deserved" for a similar group of people who don't happen to have a stupid stamp in their passport, or a stupid piece of paper.

Oh, but didn't you know? That stamp means you are now an ALMIGHTY AMERICAN! Ordained by god(s) to be here non-criminally! All others shall be condemned to live in their own feces! And not share the wealth and greatness that this our country!

That same country that the same people who shout CRIMINAL! BEAST! GET BACK! are those who decry the system, plagued with its "wilt thou help thy neighbor," and "invasion is good"--meanwhile housing is kept cheaper by illegal labor, and yardwork is a mere $25/week.

Suzette
September 22nd, 2005, 12:47 PM
Hurray! We're dying! No, no, don't help, just tell us we deserve it because we're immigrants. (because if you read the original post, it's happening to legal immigrants as well.)

I would first tell you that Suzette said "real people", not "real citizens". And even saying something like that as a mistake is indicitive of a horrible dehumanizing point of view. It's not an honest mistake. The phrase 'real people' and 'real citizen' have very different meanings and the twain should not be confused because the former is a terrible dehumanizing phrase, and the second only denotes legal status in a given country.


First of all, get over it. It was a mistake. You have no right to judge me, or my values as you don't have a CLUE of the kind of person I am and how I live my life and how much I GIVE BACK by volunteering AND by being a DECENT person who lives by example (I'll think of you this Thanksgiving stuffing your face while I'm delivering meals to inbound seniors).

And I don't remember anyone saying anything about NOT helping ANYONE who is dying, so again - keep YOUR judgements to yourself.

THE POINT I believe many here are trying to make is going out of our way to keep GIVING MORE to people who don't belong here when there are people who DO belong here that our system seemed to have forgotten.

**decided to unrope myself from said stake, so back off**

Catiana
September 22nd, 2005, 12:48 PM
Oh, but didn't you know? That stamp means you are now an ALMIGHTY AMERICAN! Ordained by god(s) to be here non-criminally! All others shall be condemned to live in their own feces! And not share the wealth and greatness that this our country!

That same country that the same people who shout CRIMINAL! BEAST! GET BACK! are those who decry the system, plagued with its "wilt thou help thy neighbor," and "invasion is good"--meanwhile housing is kept cheaper by illegal labor, and yardwork is a mere $25/week.


You know instead of making people come here legally so it can be made sure that they aren't escaped criminals or people on the run from the police in their country for murder or rape,or whatever and to make sure that they aren't terrorists or on a watch list or something, we should just open the borders, let any and everyone no matter who they are just come on in and make themselves at home. Yeah, thats they way to do it (end of sarcasm)

There are reasons that there are immigration laws, good reasons and no one should be able to circumvent them. And it doesn't make us evil selfish Americans to want the laws to be enforced.

IvyWitch
September 22nd, 2005, 01:36 PM
Go back and reread the "freaking thread" yourself. About the point where it starts to devolve into "immigrants are subhuman". My post was an attempt to get the thread back on track to before people decided to state such stupidity.

:eyebrow: Actually, the thread was on a fine track before you came in and accused everyone participating of thinking that immigrants weren't real human beings.
Like I said, only one person said such, and she didn't mean to imply that they were sub-human. YOU are the only one who is harping on that. We could get the thread back on track if you wouldn't. If you've got a problem with Suzette's statement fine, take it up with her. But don't take that post and then assume that everyone else who's posting in the thread agrees with it.

Jenne
September 22nd, 2005, 01:42 PM
There are reasons that there are immigration laws, good reasons and no one should be able to circumvent them. And it doesn't make us evil selfish Americans to want the laws to be enforced.

Those so-called laws you are touting? They are MEANT to be broken. Looking at the history of the "settlement" of this land, that has ALWAYS been the case. Knowing this, and learning it firsthand as I have, I don't fault those who come here illegally at all. Their own government sells it to them, lock, stock and barrel. They have *counselors* that come onto the coyotes' buses that advise the people about how to get across safely, where to go for help, and how to escape los migres.

Now, knowing this, you got to figure there's an equivalent of those counselors over here, doncha? Go a bit further, and read the laws and statutes on the borders and what happens once the people are here. They are protected to a large friggin' extent. Unbeknownst to them of course, because they are given to believe that once a policeperson spots them, they're to be hoisted straight back over the border. Not so the case. Unless they are pursuing criminal activities and caught doing such, they are left alone. The local police here in San Diego KNOW where the illegal immigrants hang. They can't miss them. There are no patrols rounding them up, however. Why is that do you think?

Could it be that this large economy, California, RELIES upon the cheap labor? That while we groan and moan about assistance programs and the inflation of infrastructure, that the cheap price of unskilled labor, fruits and veggies, and even skilled labor has become an integral part of our daily existence here, in the (something around) 5th largest economy of the world? Take that away, and what's to happen?

I'm not saying "let's throw away the laws altogether"--I'm saying, let's find a solution that works. Starting with the existing laws--improving them so that they aren't made to be broken, meanwhile protecting the resources in place. Our economy is fragile--I really don't want to go through another recession like we did in the early 90's. And I fear one is coming. But blaming our neighbors to the South, tho typical and true to historic form, is not going to help matters.

Mithrea
September 22nd, 2005, 01:48 PM
I really hate it when people put words in my mouth.

Sorry, I just found this statement quite interesting, since you were very quick to put words in my mouth, at least. _inabox_

Zibblsnrt
September 22nd, 2005, 02:00 PM
First of all, get over it. It was a mistake. You have no right to judge me, or my values as you don't have a CLUE of the kind of person I am

Actually, people have every right to judge you and your values by what you say in public forums.

We have no particular responsibility to do so in a way that you happen to enjoy or agree with, nor do we have a responsibility to become mindreaders so we can figure out what you "really" mean. Besides, as Kaylara said, even a "mistake" in word choice along those lines is telling.

If you don't like that ... well, I couldn't care less, and I'm certainly under no obligation to change my behaviour over it.

Cope.

Catiana
September 22nd, 2005, 02:01 PM
Those so-called laws you are touting? They are MEANT to be broken. Looking at the history of the "settlement" of this land, that has ALWAYS been the case. Knowing this, and learning it firsthand as I have, I don't fault those who come here illegally at all. Their own government sells it to them, lock, stock and barrel. They have *counselors* that come onto the coyotes' buses that advise the people about how to get across safely, where to go for help, and how to escape los migres.

Now, knowing this, you got to figure there's an equivalent of those counselors over here, doncha? Go a bit further, and read the laws and statutes on the borders and what happens once the people are here. They are protected to a large friggin' extent. Unbeknownst to them of course, because they are given to believe that once a policeperson spots them, they're to be hoisted straight back over the border. Not so the case. Unless they are pursuing criminal activities and caught doing such, they are left alone. The local police here in San Diego KNOW where the illegal immigrants hang. They can't miss them. There are no patrols rounding them up, however. Why is that do you think?

Could it be that this large economy, California, RELIES upon the cheap labor? That while we groan and moan about assistance programs and the inflation of infrastructure, that the cheap price of unskilled labor, fruits and veggies, and even skilled labor has become an integral part of our daily existence here, in the (something around) 5th largest economy of the world? Take that away, and what's to happen?

I'm not saying "let's throw away the laws altogether"--I'm saying, let's find a solution that works. Starting with the existing laws--improving them so that they aren't made to be broken, meanwhile protecting the resources in place. Our economy is fragile--I really don't want to go through another recession like we did in the early 90's. And I fear one is coming. But blaming our neighbors to the South, tho typical and true to historic form, is not going to help matters.


I'm fully aware of the laws and statutes regarding immigration. Its a major issue here in Arizona. But I don't think any law is "meant" to be broken. And until the existing laws are enforced any subsequent laws will be ignored just as readily as the existing laws. Although one new law I would support would be that local police have jurisdiction to enforce immigration laws.

As far as cheap labor goes, I personally have no problem paying a little more for things if it means getting the border in order.

PaganLibrarian
September 22nd, 2005, 02:01 PM
I'm saying, let's find a solution that works.

You know what would work? Life in prison for anyone caught knowingly using illegal labor.

Catiana
September 22nd, 2005, 02:06 PM
You know what would work? Life in prison for anyone caught knowingly using illegal labor.

Yes, start with enforcing the laws against hiring undocumented workers. If there is no place for them to work, fewer will be coming in to the country illegally.

Romani Vixen
September 22nd, 2005, 02:18 PM
True, there are many citizens of this country who don't get the medical care they need. Who are their advocates?


I have two chronic conditions. I can't get treatment for them. I don't have insurance, and havn't for years. There are many jobs which don't provide insurance, and I havn't ever been able to afford it myself. But our government still spends tons of money helping out people who don't pay taxes.

There is a reason we pay taxes. To get services. But when those who don't pay anything keep getting the services, all it's going to do is drain everyone who does. It's quite logical.

Help them. Make sure that they're injuries from the event aren't severe, then send them packing!!!

And yes... they're humans!!!! Do they diserve compassion? Totally! But so do a lot of Americans. And I do recall a saying... you must help yourself before you can help others.

Gwenhwyfar
September 22nd, 2005, 03:01 PM
You know what would work? Life in prison for anyone caught knowingly using illegal labor.

Thats a great idea...they totally need to crack down on the people hiring the illegals. Its crap that they get away with paying them less than a normal employee, also not paying into their pension plan, taxes, ect...Illegal immigrants just cause BS, anyway you look at it.

Protagonist
September 22nd, 2005, 09:46 PM
You know what would work? Life in prison for anyone caught knowingly using illegal labor.
Yeah. Lets fill up our already bursting prisons even more. We certainly haven't incarcerated enough non-violent drug offenders yet.

~*Ginger*~
September 23rd, 2005, 06:18 AM
You know what would work? Life in prison for anyone caught knowingly using illegal labor.

Yeah. Lets fill up our already bursting prisons even more. We certainly haven't incarcerated enough non-violent drug offenders yet.
I agree, life in prison is a bit over the top.

Perhaps some major amount in fines, and the responsibility of the employer footing the bill for transporting the "Illegal Immigrant", back to their own country.

That would probably be a much more effective procedure...

Gwenhwyfar
September 23rd, 2005, 10:50 AM
I agree, life in prison is a bit over the top.

Perhaps some major amount in fines, and the responsibility of the employer footing the bill for transporting the "Illegal Immigrant", back to their own country.

That would probably be a much more effective procedure...

not harsh enough. Loss of the business would probably be effective though. Break that law and your little sweat shop is history.

Danustouch
September 23rd, 2005, 11:14 AM
The problem with just outright closing companies which hire illegals, is that they will just go over the border the other direction...American Companies will go to Mexico to find their cheap labor. And in Mexico, the labor laws are far less strict. So the conditions for employees will be even worse. Secondly, American Citizens would DEFINITELY not be able to have those jobs then. We're trying to keep our economy here. That is why the government does want to monitor the working illegals. It defeats the purpose to close the factories outright. Financial Penalties would be more effective, imo.

PaganLibrarian
September 23rd, 2005, 11:49 AM
Where shall I start? Major corporations are not hiring illegals in the US. As has been pointed out, the majors just move their ops out of the country. It is small businessmen who are hiring illegals. After the first couple go to jail for the rest of their life, the rest will stop. You'll still have a few that just will not stop, and they can join their friends in jail. If you take someone's business away, they'll just start another.

Danustouch
September 23rd, 2005, 12:38 PM
Big Corporations don't Hire illegals???

http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/23/news/companies/walmart_worker_arrests/?CNN=yes (http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/23/news/companies/walmart_worker_arrests/?CNN=yes)

http://www.vdare.com/misc/tyson_complaint.htm (http://www.vdare.com/misc/tyson_complaint.htm)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/12239991.htm (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/12239991.htm)

Looks like some rather big corporations to me...

Kaylara
September 23rd, 2005, 12:42 PM
First of all, get over it. It was a mistake. You have no right to judge me, or my values as you don't have a CLUE of the kind of person I am and how I live my life and how much I GIVE BACK by volunteering AND by being a DECENT person who lives by example (I'll think of you this Thanksgiving stuffing your face while I'm delivering meals to inbound seniors).

'Judge not lest je be judged' is a Christian thing. I'm not a Christian, I'm a Pagan, and if I didn't use my own judgement, I wouldn't have a religion. I have every right in the world to judge you, at face value, based on what you write on this message board. I will judge you based on what you say, and I expect that when I speak people will judge me based on what I say. I said nothing about how much you give back, or volunteer. And go ahead and think of me this Thanksgiving. I'm currently living in a country that doesn't celebrate it, and will probably spend it as though it was any other Thursday, and generally that doesn't include stuffing anything.

I don't understand how someone who would be a volunteer, as you claim to be, could make such a mistake in speaking. It is telling, and no I won't get over it.



And I don't remember anyone saying anything about NOT helping ANYONE who is dying, so again - keep YOUR judgements to yourself.
You said they weren't 'real people'. Rather flippantly. You said that the help should go to 'real people'. And until you came back later and said "oops" there was nothing within your post that stated or implied any different stand point. And again, I will judge you as your posts warrant. I would still like to know what line of logic preceeds saying "they're not real people."



THE POINT I believe many here are trying to make is going out of our way to keep GIVING MORE to people who don't belong here when there are people who DO belong here that our system seemed to have forgotten.

If our system has forgotten to give to people who belong here and need the help, then the system is wrong. Period. Don't blame people who are getting help for getting it. Blame the system that doesn't allow the funds and needed help to go to the proper places and to the proper people. Especially if it's so easy to snooker the system when you're not legally there into giving you "more support" than anyone else is receiving.

Please direct me to the illegal immigrants corner. I hear that they have baluga caviar, Dom Perignon, and spa passes.

Danustouch
September 23rd, 2005, 01:03 PM
Please direct me to the illegal immigrants corner. I hear that they have baluga caviar, Dom Perignon, and spa passes.

This was priceless... :yourock:

Catiana
September 23rd, 2005, 01:34 PM
Here's the problem with fining businesses, its not happening. The penalty under the current law against hiring undocumented workers is fines, up to $10,000 per person. The last time a business actually got fined was 2001.

PaganLibrarian
September 23rd, 2005, 01:38 PM
Big Corporations don't Hire illegals???

http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/23/news/companies/walmart_worker_arrests/?CNN=yes (http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/23/news/companies/walmart_worker_arrests/?CNN=yes)

http://www.vdare.com/misc/tyson_complaint.htm (http://www.vdare.com/misc/tyson_complaint.htm)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/12239991.htm (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/12239991.htm)

Looks like some rather big corporations to me...

Go back and check out the status of those suits you posted. To start with, Wal_mart didn't hire illegals, it was small, local contractors that hired illegals. At no point did anyone in authority accuse Wal-Mart of hiring illegals. The contractors were convicted of hiring illegals. Tyson chicken was aquitted of all charges in the suit against them, although the lawyers are filing another suit int he hopes of getting a settlement this time. The third article is even more clouded by lawyers looking to make money, but is just a suit that hasn't even gone to trial yet. So in two of your example, the large corps were cleared, and the pother one is far from clear. As I said, and I stand by it, large corporations do not have a record of knowingly hiring illegals. They may hire some. They may use some contractors who hire some, but they don't go out of their way to hire illegals.

Danustouch
September 23rd, 2005, 04:34 PM
Well..of COURSE they hire contractors, who hire illegals. Do you think they'd want to have their name directly linked? They're not about to go out there and set up their job booths, and take applications from illegals "knowingly". Instead, they have the contractors do it. Contractors that often have RECORDS of this type of behavior. It's just a smart way, to get around a legal issue. Walmart isn't just an innocent victim..they just manage to get themselves off on a legal technicality. Happens all the time.

PaganLibrarian
September 23rd, 2005, 06:56 PM
Whatever you say. Personally, I believe that Wal-Mart wants the job done. They don't care one way or another who does it. They hire contractors, because it's another way to get out of paying benefits for employees. They don't do it so they can hire illegals.