kat 2, the question...

[flar7]

Do you think its okay to declaw your pet cats?

Looking for a broader view.



:boing:-vote yes:smooch:-vote no

[clef0628]

Our cat is declawed. She still has her rear claws we just had the front taken out. See she loves to sit in laps, witch is fine, but when you pet her she would dig her claws into your legs. So, thats why we did it. She does not seem to have a problem with it. However, she is an indoor cat. So, she does not have much use for a claw as an outdoor cat would.

[Flaire-FireStar]

Well, it depends on whether or not you choose to let her be an inside cat or an outside cat... Mine's an outside one, so I think she should have the claws to defend herself from all the other animals we got crawling around our neighbourhood (3 small dogs and 2 other cats) :) But if she's going to be an inside cat, I don't see much need for her to have the claws unless it's to rip up the furniture and such. :D *needs a scratching post for her cat*

[mato]

50 50 with two votes.... And the crowd goes wild...

No! Sorry but it is painfull and you hate yourself for having done it, sure they dont claw up the furnature but you impair their natural hunting abilities, their climbing skills their fighting skills... Often on swipe of the claws to a dogs nose will get it to back off, with out them the cat is dog food (sorry). Now I used to have one that was declawed but he was on drugs that made him moody so it was a precaution... It would be the equivilant of removing your fingers, as they are as usefull to cats as your fingers are to you... Now I get a bit hypocritical here cause i nudered my male cat (cause there are two a male and a female and they are imbred enough without any more), and i am an advocate for nudering and speying strey/faral cats, but it is their natural state to have claws, it seems silly yes but... Their natural state isnt were they are now... so I have no conflict of ideologies (sp?)...

I mentioned the pain didnt I? Well emagine that your finger nails had been pulled out and the pain you would be in as that sensitive flesh was exposed, and the gross feeling, and the overall difficulty that it would put into your life, no typing very little walking No running! no video games no paper of any kind (ouch!) no cooking or cleaning (down boy its only for a few weeks then your back to work!) the emotional toll of not being able to bite your nails and other things you take for granted, now you have an idea of wat a declawed cat goes through in the first few days of the procedure... Also If you have a good vet they will knock your cat out before anything is done, however... If you have a bad one... There was actually a debate as to if animals could feel pain!!!!!! Some might not use anestetic on their patients. Yes it is crewl and ecky but true.

And what if the cat gets into a fight or were its not supposed to be? Clawless kitty vs. bulldog. I could never do that to a family member (unless it was a necessary, like they go nuts and try to hunt their own shadow... or worse the 100 pound dog in the back yard...) Remember the love and joy the felt as they dropped a dead mouse on your pillow? You couldnt do that to the cute loyal non judgemental innocent thing could you?!

[Theres]

absolutely not!
to me this just seems like one more way of humans 'redesigning' nature to fit our convenience.
even though domesticated, a cat is one of the most primal of the 'pet' species. if my cat starts clawing while sitting on my lap, he finds himself on the floor pronto. to declaw them is cruel and unusual.
now i'm definitely biased here, as i don't feel that there is any such thing as an 'indoor' cat. if a cute little fluffy is what you want, get a tribble!
imo.

[MammaStar]

Well the trouble with tribbles are...WAIT wrong topic.

Well, I am of the opinion that if your cat is an indoor one, then it is okay to declaw them. However, if your cat spends both time in and outdoors, then you shouldn't.

My cat is declawed. He doesn't go out, though he would like too. It's too "busy" on my street and there's lots of things that could hurt him, people, cars, machines, other animals around, etc. I felt a little bad in the beginning because he used to jump up on this wicker shelf I had and look out the window. He can't jump up now, cause he used his claws to get up there. But he quickly found a new spot in another window where he lies content. Still in my bedroom I may add. He was clawing furniture, shredding things, and even swiped at the puppy and drew blood. After that, I decided to have him declawed.

It's up to you really and how the cat's personality is too. If the cat runs around clawing everything in sight, well you might consider it. My first cat wasn't declawed even though he was an inside cat, because he didn't claw everything in sight.

It's up to the owner, I think on what to do.

[Nikola]

I would not have my cat declawed. It is not like having your fingernails removed; a cat's claws are a movable part of its body (unlike your fingernails). It is like amputating your finger at the first joint behind the fingernail.

To prevent pain when a cat digs into your leg, just take your fingernail clippers and clip the nails back so they are more blunt. I do this to my indoor cat, but leave the outdoor cats' nails sharp for defense.

The bad part of an indoor cat with claws is that they can destroy furniture. Fortunately, my border collie, 'Raven', will punish the cat if he starts to claw the furniture. She learned to do this by herself; every time I would tell the cat 'NO', she would take it upon herself to growl at the cat and push him away from the couch.

[Myst]

<rant>
Here how about the point of view from someone who actually knows what declawing is about. Oh yeah, I worked at a vet clinic for like 4 years.

It is not that painful, certainly nowhere near as painful as a neuter or spay, your cat just needs litter that doesn't have gravel in it and lo and behold it can't get infections either. Most people shouldn't let their cats out anyway, if they live in a busy town or city, IMNSHO. Seen one too many mutilated cats hit by cars, mauled by dogs (and believe you me, no amount of claws stops some dogs), injured by fences, etc. I wouldn't let my cats outside here if you paid me.

Uhm cats don't type or play video games, nor cook or clean OR bite their nails. In fact an indoor cat does nothing with its claws but scratch a post or furniture, period. And uhm your cat will have no problem walking or running when declawed, it may be a little more dainty for a day but even that's not likely. If your vet won't anesthetize find a new vet, I've never heard of one that won't anesthetize.

So, I mean that's cool if it's your own opinion. I don't have my cats declawed either, but then we're moving to a farm next year and they will be allowed out then. I certainly would NOT declaw a cat that isn't totally indoors.
</rant>

[stormyray]

Imo...... No

[Pheonix]

Originally posted by mato
50 50 with two votes.... And the crowd goes wild...

No! Sorry but it is painfull and you hate yourself for having done it, sure they dont claw up the furnature but you impair their natural hunting abilities, their climbing skills their fighting skills... Often on swipe of the claws to a dogs nose will get it to back off, with out them the cat is dog food (sorry). Now I used to have one that was declawed but he was on drugs that made him moody so it was a precaution... It would be the equivilant of removing your fingers, as they are as usefull to cats as your fingers are to you... Now I get a bit hypocritical here cause i nudered my male cat (cause there are two a male and a female and they are imbred enough without any more), and i am an advocate for nudering and speying strey/faral cats, but it is their natural state to have claws, it seems silly yes but... Their natural state isnt were they are now... so I have no conflict of ideologies (sp?)...

I mentioned the pain didnt I? Well emagine that your finger nails had been pulled out and the pain you would be in as that sensitive flesh was exposed, and the gross feeling, and the overall difficulty that it would put into your life, no typing very little walking No running! no video games no paper of any kind (ouch!) no cooking or cleaning (down boy its only for a few weeks then your back to work!) the emotional toll of not being able to bite your nails and other things you take for granted, now you have an idea of wat a declawed cat goes through in the first few days of the procedure... Also If you have a good vet they will knock your cat out before anything is done, however... If you have a bad one... There was actually a debate as to if animals could feel pain!!!!!! Some might not use anestetic on their patients. Yes it is crewl and ecky but true.

And what if the cat gets into a fight or were its not supposed to be? Clawless kitty vs. bulldog. I could never do that to a family member (unless it was a necessary, like they go nuts and try to hunt their own shadow... or worse the 100 pound dog in the back yard...) Remember the love and joy the felt as they dropped a dead mouse on your pillow? You couldnt do that to the cute loyal non judgemental innocent thing could you?!


I had a big speech ready but now all I can say is ditto.

Brightest Blessings,
Pheonix

[Twilight Garden]

I won't openly condemn someone who has done it, but as a former Vet Tech (I was the Head Technician at our clinic for years) I would not do it to my own pets. I would encourage my friends not to do it, too. The Doctors I used to work for hated the surgery; not because it was difficult (it's one that I used to do myself, it's easy) but because it really does cause the cats a great deal of pain and leaves them defenseless if they get outside. I used to feel so sorry for the animals because they wake up in so much pain. It's true, it's about as much pain as a spay; not a neuter, on a cat that's nothing (sorry boys); but it's a different kind of pain. If you declaw young enough they get over the pain more quickly. Don't ask me why...

[StormChaser]

If you have a cat and you live:
In a city
In a relatively animal free area


If your cat is:
highly domesticated
outdoors inhibited
lack common sense
are being self destructive with their claws
lazy to the N'th degree
OVERLY destructive and all other means of control have been taken

Declawing is ok. I would say, start with the front claws, leaving the back claws for jumping, climbing, and escape tricks.

I personally don't like to own cats who fit any of these quailities.
I also like to think that if by some chance my cat disappears into the wild... he\she will be able to survive. Claws help give that piece of mind.

I think it's pretty cruel and stupid to submit a cat to declawing simply because it will prevent a scratch or two to you or your furniture... a properly used spray bottle of water can usually cure a cat of such ill mannors.

Don't forget, you should be trimming kitties claws as it is. this helps with damage control!

~Storm

[Faery-Wings]

This is a topic I feel pretty strongly about. Surgery is surgery, they still need to be put under anesthesia which is a risk. And whether or not there is pain involved, and I personally imagine there is, I agree with Greenman and feel that it is our easy way to control an animal's behavior.


Now, I never say never, and I do approve of declawing in one instance. If your cat is really doing damage and has not responded to behavior mod and you are considering putting your cat in a shelter or put down because of it, then declawing is a preferable option. No claws is much better than no home, IMHO.

Just so you know, I am somewhat biased here. :) I have a dog who has severe separation anxiety and has destroyed a sofa (chewed the cushions to death), scratched at doors, pees on the floor, chews any toy left on the floor if we are gone "too long" according to her. That could be 10 minutes or 10 hours depending on the day. And yup, she is on meds too.

I also have three cats, all with claws and have shredded sofas, rugs and skin (ouch!) to prove it. :D:D:D My kids know it and have only been scratched a few times each- and each time, they deserved it b/c they were teasing the cats. I guess I see my pets as truly part of the family and I would dream of de- teething my kids if they bit, or takie off their fingers if they hit.

But that is not too say everyone feels the same and I would never hold it against someone for making their own decision.

BB

Chris

[StormChaser]

Is it painful: Surgery sux. but I know plenty of people who have declawed, and their indoor cats are very happy.. lively, playful cats still.. They get to enjoy their toys for longer *chuckles* Cats use their claws and teeth to go after pray.

Is this "humans" over "kittys" Yes. That is why it is called a "pet". Something you take on, take into your life, adopt as a sort of.. hobby. You don't treat it like you'd treat a tiger, nor do you treat it like you'd treat a kid. It's somewhere in the middle. This cat, gets it's cute furry behind pampered. It gets fed, it gets petted, it gets toys, it gets treats, it gets a clean place to pee and poop. It also gets to destroy your furniture, scratch your kids, have "accidents" wherever, ignore your guests, and steal your food. It never gets put out in the cold for these things, nor does it ever have to lift a paw to fix the mistakes. It is however, requested through training techniques, that kitty NOT do these things repetatively. If kitty cannot abide these requests, prior to be shuttled off traumatically to a new home or shelter, other options are available to the sympathetic, yet concerned "owner".

Declawing is just one of them

I've had and trained over 20 cats in my 20 years. I've found several ways of handling the problems that lead to declawing. Only once have i had to resort to declawing.

For scratching:
First step is to discourage scratching. Every time it is seen a severe "NO" and moving the cat to a "proper" scratching post. You cannot possibly expect kitty NOT to scratch. It IS a necessary thing for kittys with claws. So you must have a proper post for puddy.

When kitty uses the proper post a "good kitty" and a nice pet are in order.

If scratching on other furniture persists, try putting tinfoil over areas being scratched. Most cats dispise this. You can also try putting scented oil on areas being scratched at. Let kitty smell the oil first to assure that it is a scent kitty will NOT like.

"THE LAW" as we called the spray bottle of water. It can be used at any point in training. Many people prefer this. It can be used for scratching of people, entering rooms or places they are forbidden from, or doing the "deed" anywhere other than the proper receptical. You may say "NO" while spraying or nothing at all. IF Your voice is heard talking during any punishment, kitty may equate that punishment to your voice, and may stop desiring your company, or desire it less.

The law is pretty effective alone if used rigorously.
It is also a very good thing to remember that POSITIVE reinforcement is a great thing. Kitty treats, nice pets, net toys.. play time, new sleeping quarters. These are all great ways to show kitty love and appreciation for your developing respect for each other.

The one time i HAD to declaw *only frontally* my cat, was when she was hurting the other cats, herself, and people. She was a "rescued" cat, and had other psychosis. by declawing her front paws, she could still get her point across with a nice wack with her paw.. and use her back claws to get away if she was actually in danger.

obviously, to declaw an outdoor cat, is not a smart, nor kind idea. giving the cat away may be a better idea if this is the case.

Storm
For scratching, certain scents can be applied to furniture to make kitty.. unattracted to the furniture.

[Faery-Wings]

He he- we have stubborn cats- they must get it from my husband LOL!

We have tried just about everything with them- tin foil- they rip that up, scratching posts, they rip the carpet *next* to the post- No Scratch spray, No Go Spray,- strong scented air freshener- one cat *liked* the spray bottle- we used the pointy side of plastic carpet runners, and a little thingy that beeped when a cat jumped on the sofa or table.

*sigh* Pet stores love me. :D

Chris

[StormChaser]

Hmm.. next stop.. SWIRLIES! WOOHOO *hides from the animal activists*

I did it to an ex bf once when he was unruly... then again.. we were 7.

[Illuminatus]

Maybe you should fill the spray bottle with something with a little more bite, like water diluted ammonia or rubbing alcohol. They'll stop liking it real quick!

<hides from animal activists next to SC>

[Sunday's Child]

I didn't know so much could be said about the subject. Duh..

[Old Witch]

If its a grown cat gone into destructo mode and you still need your furniture and are not fond of transfusions and lawsuits by all means have it declawed ( if it's an indoor cat). But if its a kitten, give it time to grow out of it....... and use all the behavior modifications above.:boing:

[flar7]

about coating wires and cables with some sort of liquid, like jalepeno juice. It would dry and still be there,(first hand knowledge, if you have ever wiped eyes and hour or so after eating jalepenos!!!)

The vet said to wait til she was at least 4 mos. old, to see if she
outgrew it and she needs to be older to handle the anesthesia.

I like the spray bottle idea.

In my 36 years of having cats and dogs, I have never had a cat
this ornery! Usually they obey me right away with little or no
discipline. The good news was she took to the litter box 1st day.

[Myst]

Unless she's a farm cat the litter box should be easy ;)

Water guns work wonders (look, alliteration!). We use the waterguns we bought for waterfights (no kidding). We're talking huge supersoakers I can barely lug around. :)

[Sequoia]

no way. No way in |-|311. Not a chance.

My cat clawed when she was in pain, when she needed something, or when her claws were dull. When she clawed in teh wrong place, she got something to remind her. She was chased away, squirted, bapped (a light swat, nothing that would hurt her, but told her "no!"), and always told "No!"

She understood.

I'm sorry, but de-clawing a cat is one of the cruelist things you can do, IMO. Fixing a cat has a very viable reason. And yes if your cat is an absolute menace and you're thinking of giving it away, I suppose it's feasable, but. . . no. If you're doing it because you're too lazy to train the cat or even try, then I'm sorry you shouldn't be a pet owner.

btw- my cat tiger, as long as she was alive, was not a "toy", not a "pet", but rather she was my BABY, I LOVED that cat like a child. We even had "talks" about her behaving. -_-; she even talked back. I would say something, she would make this annoyed growl, I would say "hey! No! Don't talk back to me!" and she'd shut up, and I'd continue talking, and she'd glare and start growling again, and I'd say no again. . . like a regular teenager.

You can't tell me cats, dogs, etc aren't small people. You just cannot, if you've ever loved your pet and known it well. . . no. I can't see how you couldn't see it. They're small people with perminant fur coats.

[StormChaser]

I agree whole heartedly, people unwilling to train their pets are unfit for the responsibility.
However; I personally I think the act of being declawed is not a happy, nor unpainful process. I don't think it's torture, but I do think it is A solution. Not THE solution. In theory, yes I think declawing is all around negative, in practice it has often proved itself to be the best choice.

"You cannot tell me.."
I think you misunderstood. I said that a cat is neither family nor a toy, rather somewhere in the middle. The descision to have any pet, like having a child, is a purely selfish choice. It is a gift you give yourself, and in many ways that is a gift that gives tons more back. But it is a gift that requires great patience, and great responsibility.

I can tell you I do not think of a cat as a child or a baby. My ability to say that stems from the fact that if and when I have children, my cat better expect that if it, out of spite or jealousy, attacks my child, it will be reprimanded, and in a worst case scenario, ousted from my home. The response would obviously not be the same if the cat was scratching my child in self defense or anger over mistreatment, or accidentally in play. In such a case I would comfort my child, but explain that it was their fault, and teach them how to avoid further problems.
Obviously if my child was intent on causing harm to the cat, I would have to, as much as it would pain me, place the cat in another home until I could cure or "fix" my child of their obvious disregard for the life of another being. If the cat was another one of my children, I would obviously never "give" them away. I might infact actually have to send the abusive child for help or care away from home instead. That is the difference between a pet, and a child. It's all about priorties. Everyone has their own order. And that is how it should be.

To a degree, yes, pets = family. But even in my family we have rules that go with the way of life. In my home, you give what you get... and never anything less.

[Faery-Wings]

Flar7, you can get stuff called Bitter Apple from a pet store to do the same thing. (told ya pet stores love me!). I know of people who use cayenne for the same purposes. I would be worried that jalepeno juice mught be pretty strong and could possible burn their mucous membranes.

Good luck with your kitty. Now she is really young, just weaned, right? Don't forget she hasn't had the socialization then of her littermates for very long. That means lucky you are Daddy Cat to her!:)

Chris

[flar7]

well, I just got one word for that!! Meow, meow meow, meow.

meow.

[keelyoherne]

I totally relate to Puma's post...


Originally posted by Puma Hime
no way. No way in |-|311. Not a chance.

My cat clawed when she was in pain, when she needed something, or when her claws were dull. When she clawed in teh wrong place, she got something to remind her. She was chased away, squirted, bapped (a light swat, nothing that would hurt her, but told her "no!"), and always told "No!"

She understood.

I'm sorry, but de-clawing a cat is one of the cruelist things you can do, IMO. Fixing a cat has a very viable reason. And yes if your cat is an absolute menace and you're thinking of giving it away, I suppose it's feasable, but. . . no. If you're doing it because you're too lazy to train the cat or even try, then I'm sorry you shouldn't be a pet owner.

btw- my cat tiger, as long as she was alive, was not a "toy", not a "pet", but rather she was my BABY, I LOVED that cat like a child. We even had "talks" about her behaving. -_-; she even talked back. I would say something, she would make this annoyed growl, I would say "hey! No! Don't talk back to me!" and she'd shut up, and I'd continue talking, and she'd glare and start growling again, and I'd say no again. . . like a regular teenager.

You can't tell me cats, dogs, etc aren't small people. You just cannot, if you've ever loved your pet and known it well. . . no. I can't see how you couldn't see it. They're small people with perminant fur coats.

But I do have a few things to add.

I like my cat better than most people. I have a strong connection with my cat, and I know he understands me when I talk to him. My nurturing instincts come out with members of the animal kingdom, not at all with small humans.

There have been posts describing what it would be like if we were to have the first joints on all our fingers removed, which is essentially what they do to the cat. We've heard about the trauma they go through, the pain, the tender feet, which can lead to them not using the litter box any more. One other thing to add: when a cat is scratching something, he is also stretching. A cat will dig his claws in to something and pull to give himself a good stretch. This is good for the muscles and tendons, and will help keep the vertebrae aligned. Declawing them takes this ability away.

I only know of ONE situation where I found declawing to be a forgivable thing. A friend of mine had a cat who she had to have declawed because she was running a daycare at one point, and she had the choice of finding a new home for him (not gonna happen because she was too attached to him), declawing him, or taking the chance that he'd scratch one of her charges in self defense and wind up having to put him down because an overprotective parent would see him as a 'dangerous animal.' My mom taught me that if the cat scratched me, I most likely did something to make it mad and deserved it. Sadly this isn't taught nearly as much as it should and too many wonderful cats and dogs are suffering because of it. :mad:

Keely—the overopinionated:D

[maidenmoon]

Declawing a cat is cruel. They cut off the paw above the knuckle which is extremely painful then they fill it with this glue like substance afterwards. I knew someone who worked in a vet's office and saw this done. After she saw it, she was dead against it. My furniture may be ripped to shreds, but that is ok as it is only material item. I wouldn't cause harm to any animal for my own needs..or wants shall I say?

[Myst]

Originally posted by keelyoherne
We've heard about the trauma they go through, the pain, the tender feet, which can lead to them not using the litter box any more. One other thing to add: when a cat is scratching something, he is also stretching. A cat will dig his claws in to something and pull to give himself a good stretch. This is good for the muscles and tendons, and will help keep the vertebrae aligned. Declawing them takes this ability away.

What!?!? You're trying to say a declawed cat can't stretch anymore? Have you ever *seen* a declawed cat? Of course they can still stretch. They can also continue using the litterbox from the same day they get declawed (tho it is often recommended that a dustless litter is used for a week or two).

Further, this whole "oh they're taking the cat's fingertip off" thing is nuts. Seriously. If you need surgery to remove kidney stones or cancer etc. you don't jump around going "oh that's cruel!".

[Sequoia]

Further, this whole "oh they're taking the cat's fingertip off" thing is nuts. Seriously. If you need surgery to remove kidney stones or cancer etc. you don't jump around going "oh that's cruel!".


Ok. . . since when is a cat clawing something life-threatening like kidney stones and cancer? And h3llz yeah, I think surgery is cruel. It's physically cruel to one's own body. It can be very very damaging, and should only be done in extreme cercomstances.

Is a cat messing the upholstery of your favourite chair an extreme cercomstance?

oh forgive me, I forgot. That chair just CANNOT be replaced, it's the most IMPORTANT thing in teh world. Screw the cat. It's just a dumb animal, I can get a new one anytime I want one. But my chair. . .

(note: sarcasm.)

[Myst]

Kidney stones aren't life threatening. :)

Welp, I disagree. Moving on...

[StormChaser]

1. Don't like declawing, why don't you just trim the cats darn claws yourself. .. after reading about how to, and or getting guidance from your vet. This is not a surgery, it's no different than getting your own nails cut. Which means... the same problems arise from cutting the cats toenails as do from trimming your own. Don't cut too deep or it will hurt for days. Don't cut too blunt, or you won't be able to scratch an itch or claw an attackers eyes out.

2. PUT THE TOPIC DOWN.
It's really disheartening seeing people beat each others brains out because they can't agree that they disagree on what is best.
Agree to disagree and stuff a sock in it.

Go play with your cat instead of yapping about it. You'll do more good.

[Myst]

lol StormChaser. You made me giggle.

[StormChaser]

Good! Giggles are GOOD! More Giggles! NOW! I COMMAND you!... please?

[Myst]

:sunny: :rotfl: *throws her sock at StormChaster*

[StormChaser]

*feeds the sock to her cat*

I wonder if theres an operation for that *runs FAR FAR FAR away and Hides REALLY good*

[Myst]

heh

[Danustouch]

Jalopeno sauce might not be the best alternative. You have to be very careful with Jalopeno sauce, as sometimes, it can burn even the mouth of humans. Imagine what it would do to a cat. Instead, I've heard of coating wires with Soy Sauce. Cats dislike the flavor/smell of soy sauce.

I used the water bottle technique with some of my cats...it worked well. My youngest, however, was highly trainable. Every time I saw her trying to claw the couch, I'd rush over, pick her up, and bring her to the scratching post. I'd stand her up against it, take her paws, and rub them against the scratching post. Now..that's pretty much all she uses to sharpen her nails.

Cats just need more training, then most people are willing to spend the time to do. Unfortunately. Because they operate the same as dogs, in some respects. They need positive reinforcement, time, and training. The only thing I didn't bother to train my cat about..was the kitchen table. She hops on it whenever she feels like it. Because.."Daddy" (my husband), lets her :(

[Danustouch]

Oh..and I, personally, wouldn't want to declaw any of my cats. Three of them are indoor outdoor cats anyway..and that would be far too cruel to do..leaving them exposed and vulnerable against attack. My little one, is an indoor cat. And I wouldn't dream of declawing her. For the same reason. If she were ever to run outside, or anything, it would leave her vulnerable. Furniture, to me, is replaceable. They even have sprays now aday, that you can spray around the perimeter of your furniture, which keeps cats at bay. Or you could always, get those nasty plastic furniture covers that my grandma used to use.

[Myst]

Yup, I agree. That's why my kitties are not declawed, even tho they are STRICTLY indoor cats now, they might be inside/outside when we move onto the farm, and there are other barn kitties there among other things who *will* fight. The great thing will be not having to take them to the vet for shots since, as a farmer, my father in law will be vaccinating animals himself. :)

[keelyoherne]

Originally posted by Myst


What!?!? You're trying to say a declawed cat can't stretch anymore? Have you ever *seen* a declawed cat? Of course they can still stretch. They can also continue using the litterbox from the same day they get declawed (tho it is often recommended that a dustless litter is used for a week or two).

Further, this whole "oh they're taking the cat's fingertip off" thing is nuts. Seriously. If you need surgery to remove kidney stones or cancer etc. you don't jump around going "oh that's cruel!".

I knew one cat who was declawed (mentioned in earlier post). And yes, he was fairly well adjusted and a wonderful cat. I've seen others that were miserable. The well adjusted cat also belonged to a witch and healer, so I'm sure she did a ton of healing work on him to make sure he was adjusted and healed. Most cats who have to suffer through this mutilation (and it IS mutilation) are not so lucky. Too many people treat animals like they are lesser beings.

I also know just how surgery of any kind can be traumatic to an animal. I just recently had to put my cat through two bladder stone removal surgerys. Those WERE life saving operations, and I still felt horrible about having to put him through them. :( I am fairly empathic, so having to Feel what he was feeling, hurt, scared, confused, wanting to go home, angry, etc., was not fun. I was at that vet hospital twice a day to visit him during the week he had to stay there after the second surgery.

I would think that anybody who has any trace of empathy would be horrified at the thought of putting an animal through a surgery that serves no purpose. Spaying and neutering serves a purpose. It prevents the female cat's body from getting worn out with litter after litter, prevents a severe population problem (propagated by humans) which in turn prevents having a lot of 'unwanted' kitties destroyed. There's a lot of irresponsible breeding among humans too, but unfortunately we can't have them fixed, it's against the law.

Now, for a finishing thought on this post, I want everybody who thinks declawing is okay to consider how they would feel if somebody insisted their child's fingers be surgically removed because it had destructive behavior. You would be horrified, right? It makes no difference if the person in question is human or feline, it is just as horrifying.

Keely

[StormChaser]

Everyones allowed their view point.. and allowed to disagree.
You can make judgment calls on who you'll talk to and relate to in other dealings.. or who you won't.. based upon your views here. But throwing "passive" punches is really low. Can we TRY not to point fingers?
exampes:
"how can you..."
"anyone who.. ..must be"
"what makes you think.."




Keely and anyone else interested in answering questions:

Say you were right, your cat felt those things.. does that mean that there couldn't be a cat out there with more confidence, less worry than your cat. Are all cat's really the same? Is it possible in your opinion that all cats that they all MUST feel the same way about everything and experience the same things EXactly the same way? Explain why?


Assuming that the Healer DID do healing work on her cat... is that to say no other cat could have gottent hrough the surgery just fine without a healer and magick? Once again, is it that cut and dry?

What if another "Empath" came forward and stated that their cat did NOT feel those emotions you described about any surgery.. and that their cat had gotten through the surgery great and was doing fine now.. without healing magick? What if anyone, joe shmoe who goes to church and never prays, said their cat, and proved their cat was doing just fine after surgery, would you still say they had no empathy because they didn't feel that what may be torture for some cats in some instances, was fine for this cat and this instance? Would they still be that cold and cruel to you simply because they made a judgement called based on their knowlege of their cat and the situation fully? If they would still be cruel in your opinion, how do you make such a judgement call when you who is a totally unrelated third party hasn't a third of the details as you don't live with the cat?

Assuming that you found out you were wrong, in any or all instances, would you come forward here, and tell everyone that you were wrong and that it was indeed possible for someone of a different view point to have been right? Would you have to have an emotional discussion with the cat before you'd believe that empath? If you had said conversation *assuming you needed it* would you then admit to having been wrong and be sorry for providing misleading "facts". Finally why should we trust YOUR empathic skills, rather than OUR common sense and knowlege of our own pets and their personas?

[keelyoherne]

Originally posted by StormChaser
Everyones allowed their view point.. and allowed to disagree.
You can make judgment calls on who you'll talk to and relate to in other dealings.. or who you won't.. based upon your views here. But throwing "passive" punches is really low. Can we TRY not to point fingers?
exampes:
"how can you..."
"anyone who.. ..must be"
"what makes you think.."


Wasn't trying to point fingers or throw 'passive punches'. I was actually trying to be calm about it. However, this is a topic that I've gotten in to some pretty heated discussions about on other boards, I should have known better than to think I could stay level headed about it.:eyebrow: My apologies if you took it that way.

As you can tell, I am VERY anti-declawing. I've even gotten in to some nasty fights with my husband about it regarding my cat, and he doesn't claw furniture nearly as much as other cats I know. He still has his claws.

What I write are my own personal truths and conclusions, also a lot of research and discussions with different veterenarians. Your personal truths are probably different.

And yes, if I were to be 'proven wrong' I would be the first person to come forward and admit it.

Keely

[keelyoherne]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Jalopeno sauce might not be the best alternative. You have to be very careful with Jalopeno sauce, as sometimes, it can burn even the mouth of humans. Imagine what it would do to a cat. Instead, I've heard of coating wires with Soy Sauce. Cats dislike the flavor/smell of soy sauce.

I used the water bottle technique with some of my cats...it worked well. My youngest, however, was highly trainable. Every time I saw her trying to claw the couch, I'd rush over, pick her up, and bring her to the scratching post. I'd stand her up against it, take her paws, and rub them against the scratching post. Now..that's pretty much all she uses to sharpen her nails.

Cats just need more training, then most people are willing to spend the time to do. Unfortunately. Because they operate the same as dogs, in some respects. They need positive reinforcement, time, and training. The only thing I didn't bother to train my cat about..was the kitchen table. She hops on it whenever she feels like it. Because.."Daddy" (my husband), lets her :(


I can't remember if it is for cats or ferrets, but supposedly if you wrap black electrical tape around the wires, the taste is so nasty they will stay away from it. Though I don't know if anything can dissuade a ferret.:D

The water bottle has worked wonders too. There is this stuff you can buy at the pet stores that is like large strips of double sided tape that you put on the parts of your furniture that the cat tries to scratch. They tend to hate the sticky feeling on their paws, so they don't scatch there.

Catnip works pretty good too if your cat reacts to catnip. At least it does for my cat. I put catnip on and around the scratching post, that is where he now sharpens his claws. He likes cardboard boxes too for variety, so I keep a couple around for him.

We managed to teach Raven at a young age that the counters were not his 'domain' and he stays off of them.

A bonus 'training' was that when we got Raven as a kitten, we both agreed that they toilet lid stays down. I don't have to worry about my husband leaving the toilet seat up because it is an ingrained habit in both of us to put both lids down.:bigredgri

Keely

[StormChaser]

I understand the view point. I just don't see what the point is in fighting about it. Debate yes.. fight no.

It's hard to "prove" much of anything online, unless of course one shares video footage *the hard part about that is uploading and downloading* in a case like this. So you have to take peoples word if they say something like "my cat is declawed, adjusted well, and is doing fine now".

And there in lies the end point... setting down black and white lines... it's hard to erase the straight edges and smooth the hard corners when you go to fill in, fine tune, and define.

You've got to leave room for difference online if you don't want an all out OL war. It's hard to read vocal inflection and facial expression off a computer screan.. put down definites on things that have loop holes and your going to strike a nerve with someone.

"I understand but I feel"
"I disagree because in my experience.."

I think these phrases could help some of us hot heads.

I am one too *in a big way* It took me quite a bit of time revising and rewriting that last letter.

~Storm Chaser

[StormChaser]

Someone said use soy sauce. I tried that.. the cat drank it. Liked salt.. *yuck* ... but now i know whos gonna be my best friend on chinese food night!

[Sequoia]

ne, who's fighting?

LOL it liked soy sauce? blech! ^^; I see the cat and I don't hold much in common then! ^_~ Then again, my cat tiger liked the squiggly purple thingies in salad. She would pick them out and eat them. ^^; LOL

[Myst]

StormChaser you have an excellent point. Having worked a vet clinic for years and been present during and after dozens of declawings, I might have a different perspective on the matter. You know, like the fact that every one of those cats were happy and healthy afterwards, or what health concerns really exist afterwards.

At this point the conversation, IMHO, has been beaten to death anyway. Has anyone got any points other then "I think it's cruel because I said so" or "it's not cruel" now anyway?

[StormChaser]

Yeah.. MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW
Bet you can't guess what song that is?


Seriously though.. does anyone else here give kitty presents for yule?

[maidenmoon]

All I have to say is puma hime is right and Kidney stones are life threatening. Declawing is cruel and unnecessary. case closed. Moving on myself........

[keelyoherne]

Originally posted by StormChaser
Yeah.. MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW
Bet you can't guess what song that is?


Seriously though.. does anyone else here give kitty presents for yule?

I'm guessing the Meow Mix jingle? :D

Kitty presents for Yule? I think I'll start a new thread on that, since this one has been pretty much beaten to death (in agreement with Myst).

Unless the new thread has started already, I'll go start one now.

Keely

[Myst]

Originally posted by maidenmoon
Kidney stones are life threatening.

No, they aren't. I should know, I get them all the time. :D

[StormChaser]

Originally posted by keelyoherne


I'm guessing the Meow Mix jingle? :D



Did you sing and count the meows?!?

[keelyoherne]

Originally posted by StormChaser


Did you sing and count the meows?!?

Yes, because I AM that strange! :D :bigredgri :T :nyah:

Keely

[StormChaser]

Sok.. That's how i typed it..

Heheh :wave: :bubbles: :boing: :wave: :boing: :bubbles: :wave:

[Sequoia]

hehe I used to give my kitty a mini-stocking with kitty toys or cat treats or such hehe ^^; don't know if she really noticed though LOL

my little brother's new cat likes to sleep under the tree. He climbed it for a while (luckily it's a fake Christmas tree, and it's tied to the cealing LOL) but then he decided to curl up under the tree. ^^; he only climbs it when he's angry LOL

[Lucidia]

two of my cats were declawed before we got them.. and its bad i think.. because if they were ever forced to be outside... (like.. if there was a fire or something and they got outside and no one could find them) they would probably die.. because they can't defend themselves. the smallest cat we have still has her front claws (we bought her as a kitten, the others we adopted when they were older), and although she's not very strong, she kicks the other cats butts cause she has claws. i feel horrible for my cats... it's so cruel that someone did these things to them, and THEN abandoned them anyway, hence, we ended up wth them.

its horrible.. imaging someone cutting the tips of your fingers off.

if you can't deal with them scratching furniture, or you have kids... well.. you can buy sprays that repell the cats from your furniture.. and well.. cats usualy don't bother kids until the kids harrass the cat.

otherwise, dont' bother getting a cat.

[Radocs]

I personally think that having a cat declawed is cruel. It's one of their best defenses and like Lucidia said, if they are forced to go outside they're probably done for. Having no claws just makes them to dependent on their "owner".

Just my opinion.