"deity" stories, real or fake?

[StormVixen]

baring in mind that most god/goddess information comes from other stories... like the mabinogion(sp?), Arthurian ledgands and the um... the Edda (sorry if thats wrong i dont know much of norse stuff)... even The Bible! there is hardly any proof that any of these stories are real...

in these stories how can anyone know if the characters in any of these stories are fictional, deities or people?

[Agaliha]

I sort of asked this question-- about myths and things HERE: (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=105831&) "question about mythology"
You might want to look though that for opinions and such.

I just found a site that explains all the stories (legends, folklore, fables and myths)
From the site--


Mythology serves many purposes.
Myths grant continuity and stability to a culture. They foster a shared set of perspectives, values, history -- and literature, in the stories themselves. Through these communal tales, we are connected to one another, to our ancestors, to the natural world surrounding us, and to society; and, in the myths which have universal (i.e., archetypal) themes, we are connected to other cultures.
Myths present guidelines for living. When myths tell about the activities and attitudes of deities, the moral tone implies society's expectations for our own behaviors and standards. In myths, we see archetypal situations and some of the options which can be selected in those situations; we also perceive the rewards and other consequences which resulted from those selections.
Myths justify a culture's activities. Through their authoritativeness and the respected characters within them, myths establish a culture's customs, rituals, religious tenets, laws, social structures, power hierarchies, territorial claims, arts and crafts, holidays and other recurring events, and technical tips for hunting, warfare, and other endeavors.
Myths give meaning to life. We transcend our common life into a world in which deities interact with humans, and we can believe that our daily actions are part of the deities' grand schemes. In our difficulties, the pain is more bearable because we believe that the trials have meaning; we are suffering for a bigger cause rather than being battered randomly. And when we read that a particular deity experienced something which we are now enduring -- perhaps a struggle against "evil forces" -- we can feel that our own struggle might have a similar cosmic or archetypal significance, though on a smaller scale.
Myths explain the unexplainable. They reveal our fate after death, and the reasons for crises or miracles, and other puzzles -- and yet they retain and even encourage an aura of mystery. Myths also satisfy our need to understand the natural world; for example, they might state that a drought is caused by an angry deity. This purpose of mythology was especially important before the advent of modern science, which offered the Big Bang theory to replace creation myths, and it gave us the theory of evolution to supplant myths regarding the genesis of humanity. And yet, science creates its own mythology, even as its occasional secular barrenness threatens to strip us of the healthful awe which other types of mythology engender.
Myths offer role models. In particular, children pattern themselves after heroes; comic books and Saturday-morning cartoons depict many archetypal characters, such as Superman and Wonder Woman. Adults, too, can find role models, in the stories of deities' strength, persistence, and courage.


There are various types of myths.
In The Global Myths, Alexander Eliot defined four types of myth:

Primitive myths (which were generally stories about nature, as told by shamans).
Pagan myths (which were mostly from the Greek and Roman tales of the interplay between deities and humans).
Sacred myths (as in the stories from current eastern and western religions such as Christianity and Hinduism).
Scientific myths (i.e., "the most solemn and revered creeds of science -- from Lucretius on Nature through Darwin's The Origin of Species").

David Adams Leeming, in The World of Myth, listed four other types:

Cosmic myths (including narratives of the creation and end of the world).
Theistic myths (which portray the deities).
Hero myths (with accounts of individuals such as Achilles and Jesus).
"Place and object" myths (describing places such as Camelot, and objects such as the Golden Fleece).

GO HERE (http://www.mythsdreamssymbols.com/importanceofmyth.html)for all the rest.

There are many types and forms of myths. I personally don't think all stories and myths of a Diety are meant to be taken as "gospel"...some stories may be moral orientated, lessons or even entertainment.
What it comes down to is a matter of faith. There is no proof and no way to know what the person who penned a tale goal was. Or what it meant.

[StormVixen]

thanx, but what do YOU think?

[OpenHands]

StormVixen,

"there is hardly any proof that any of these stories are real... in these stories how can anyone know if the characters in any of these stories are fictional, deities or people?"

I think this is one of those big differences between modern and ancient views of stories and history. As a modern society, we prize historically accurate information. We look at the bible or legends and question, "Did this person really exist? Is this what really happened?" The ancients, in many cases, weren't trying to be scholarly historians when they told these stories and didn't value historical facts the way that we do now, from my understanding. Plus, many of the tales that you hear were passed on by word of mouth for a long time before being written down and the teller of the tale was free to change details as he/she saw fit.

Basically, you can't know for sure, in many cases, what was real and what was embellished or made up. To look at the legends, myths, and scriptures in such a light is, IMO, missing the point though. The essential nature behind the tales is what is important, from a religious standpoint (my own experience). It's that Truth vs. truth that I mentioned in another thread. The details of a story don't have to be true for the tale to contain essential Truths about whatever- the nature of humans/gods/the relationship between us/etc.

Now, if you're trying to say, "We don't know if the people, places, and events are true, so why believe that the gods are real?" then my response would be that it becomes a very personal thing on that level. Some people simply have faith and believe. Others feel that their experiences provide all of the proof that they need.

That's my take on it, at any rate.

[Agaliha]

Well I stated my opinion on Myths in the first link I posted-- the thread that I asked these questions about. I guess I will just cut and paste here...

I don't think something like Mythology can be defined by one view, belief, system. It's far too vast and deep for that.
I think myths provided a wide function of purposes: lessons, morals, "bedtime" stories for children, entertaintment, religious proposes, etc. I think a myth can be all these things at the same time...I don't think the myths are wrong or untrue. If you look at it all the worlds religons are based off "myths"-- and I believe all religons are valid. I guess, in my opinion, myths like "Arachne and Minerva" are more of a moral/lesson, but also shows the values and ways of the people and the Goddess. Was there a girl named Arachne that challenged Minerva and pissed her off and was turned into a spider? Who knows. It may have been a way to explain the spider in nature, very much like how Hyacinth became the hycinth flower after drops of his blood fell... or it could have happened...I really don't know-- I guess that is what faith is, believing in sometime when there is no proof. Personally from myths, I get lessons, morals, was to look at the world and understand things, and as a glimps at the Gods and religions of the world....

[StormVixen]

hmmm... i believe in storys even tho there is no proof...

[Childof_theMorrigan]

i believe in the idea of a story or myth... some pieces of it may have been true and then blown out of proportion and altered to sound more fantastical. i believe that many gods and goddesses may very well have been real people who did extraordinary things.

i guess it doesn't really matter if it was true or not.. it's what we learn from it. what we take with us that matters

[Ojuice5001]

I view all stories with skepticism. It seems that the myths as we have them today took their present form with help from a number of factors. The gods have a hand in the inspiration and transmission of myths, but there are many ways that they depart from the intentions of the gods, and the grain of historical truth (if any). You can't really expect anything more from the human poets and priests who play their part in religious tradition.

[TaysatWesir]

I'm split between both these options
only the "story" of my path
i view all "stories" with sceptisism

[cheddarsox]

I think that they are "true" but not real.

I am a writer. I write a great deal of fiction. It deals with truths, even though the characters are not real people.

I think myths are like that.

Certain myths resonate inside me, ring my "truth bell" so to speak.

I listen for what it is telling me.

but some, I just don't get at all. Perhaps written for and by a culture that holds views so different from my own that I can't translate the symbol language they use.

I don't find it personally useful to read random myths from random cultures,because I just don't "get" so many of them. But certain cultures I can get a better grasp on.

As far as the ultimate reality of all the deities. I am completely clueless.

cheddar

[Romani Vixen]

I believe in all stories... as metaphor!!!!! So.. i pick other.

[RubyRose]

I think that they are "true" but not real.

I am a writer. I write a great deal of fiction. It deals with truths, even though the characters are not real people.

I think myths are like that.

Certain myths resonate inside me, ring my "truth bell" so to speak.

I listen for what it is telling me.

but some, I just don't get at all. Perhaps written for and by a culture that holds views so different from my own that I can't translate the symbol language they use.

I don't find it personally useful to read random myths from random cultures,because I just don't "get" so many of them. But certain cultures I can get a better grasp on.

As far as the ultimate reality of all the deities. I am completely clueless.

cheddar

Nicely put.

[Duwayitheru]

Other.
I do not take the majority of stories (if any at all) as literal fact. I do however, see truth in many of them.. not literal historical truth, but spiritual truth. The stories are symbolic and spiritual, not something to put into history books as solid fact.

[Arion]

I think that they are "true" but not real

Well said :)

[David19]

I think the 'myths' have a divine spark, so to speak, in them that tell us something about the gods (e.g. i think Apollo is gay or bi, that Artemis might prefer women (and apparantly, priestesses that dedicated themselves to her and then left for another man, usually ended up dead with the guy too), i think Zeus likes getting around and that Yahweh is a jealous god.

But i also think some of the 'myths' may have taken place on this plane/realm (i actaully asked this on a recon group i go to, and some of the answers were great, for example, there's a few Aztec 'myths' where some gods may come down and possess certain people and i also think that the gods may be able to take on corporeal form (something i read about Kitsrunes, in Japanese folklore, was that they can take on corporeal form but that it's drains the nature around them and so they can't stay for long, i think that there's a price when gods take corporeal form, not sure if that makes sense).

Also, Apollo used to possess the Oracle of Delphi too.

Something i read on Sannion's Sanctuary (i'll link to the article later), said that it's possible that are a number (probably infinite) of worlds and that some of the 'myths' may have taken place there and people only thought they happened on this plane after they heard it (apparantly, in other planes/realms/dimensions, there are different rules, and after reading the accounts of various shamans, i think that's true).

Anyway, not sure if that makes any sense and my beliefs are probably a bit wierd but i hope they do make some sense :).

[Shanti]

For me, it depends on the particular story, its origins, who wrote it, where it was written, how it passed through time, its beginnings, its middle time and the now. Its the story behind the story!

[Tanya]

I hardly care if these stories are "real" These stories are about "truth" anyone seeking to use them primarily as historical tools is missing the point.

[Shanti]

I hardly care if these stories are "real" These stories are about "truth" anyone seeking to use them primarily as historical tools is missing the point.
I cant speak for anyone else but my reply was not with the thinking of these stories being actual historical fact.

The myth alone doesn't say much, IMO. Where, when, how the myth/legend started can play a role for me. As well as any info on if the myth had ever been changed and if so, why, when and so on.

For me, feeling if a myth/legend is/was real (not in the historical sense) often falls on the story about the story.

[QuizzicalKarma]

I also believe that there is a spark of truth in myths/folklore/etc. but I think the real truth of the myths is what they inspire inside of us. As a writer, I honestly believe that greater truths sometimes lie in fiction then textbook fact. And while I think we learn little facts about the Gods through myth, I think alot of it is greater truths.

But what's wrong with being inspired by fiction? My own path is deeply influenced by the novel "The Mists of Avalon" because it struck such a chord with me spirituality. Who's to say that it's not valid because it's not in a textbook? I think if you stick to cold hard facts you might miss out alot in matters of faith.

[Dale Ivarie]

I decide on wether a story is true by talking to someone who believes in that story...many of the stories being refered to are dead...the cultures in which they lived have long since faded into history and all we have are pale shadows in the form of fragmentary writtings often set down by people who thought of the myths with disdain...

I think if I were talking and interacting with an ancient celt I could venture an opinion but as it stands I cannot..

As for me I am all about the divine revealing itself through the observation of the scientific method..then I mythologize the observation so I can see my gods more clearly and interact with them...I have full belief an faith in the truth of my path...others I judge by talking and interacting with those who live by them...however if a person doesn't live by their stories of divinity then it seems to me that they don't "believe" in them so why should I ....


Dale

[coaxialkettle]

other:from a lighthouse of certainty memories are just dead men making trouble...
i do not believe,but i am honored to serve them here in silence

[StormVixen]

i've changed alot... in less than a year! i forgot about this thread...

[Morr]

I dont know if saying ""there is very little proof"".

Take the Bible for example -- Come out here to Israel, you'll see many archeological evidence that some of the Biblical stories DO have truth within them, such as ancient towns and cities (some still baring the same names today in Israel as they did in Biblical times).

Archeology is our greatest storyteller.

While I dont take all mythological and biblical stories as ABSOLUTE LITERAL, I think there is a core truth to these myths. A sort of cultural and sociological truth within each.

Each detail of each story/myth might not be RIGHT ON, but there a small piece to a story that is truthful, in my opinion.

[Ishtara]

I believe in stories and myths as metaphors.
I do not think they are meant to be taken literally, but I certainly believe that they each express a spiritual or metaphysical truth.

[mystic_peacock]

baring in mind that most god/goddess information comes from other stories... like the mabinogion(sp?), Arthurian ledgands and the um... the Edda (sorry if thats wrong i dont know much of norse stuff)... even The Bible! there is hardly any proof that any of these stories are real...

in these stories how can anyone know if the characters in any of these stories are fictional, deities or people?

I believe that the stories and myths of deities (of all paths) were created by the human mind to put a face and attributes to a nameless, faceless being that they sought to worship. I believe that through these stories, ancient peoples were able to "flesh out" their gods, and give them personalities (to make them easier to worship... that's why imo one of the reasons Christians have so much love for images of Jesus. He is God, just as God is God, but Jesus has a face, and the people can have a tangible personality to work with).
I also think that the stories were created to explain the world before science came along. That doesn't invalidate them, it just dates them a little bit :)
I think that myths have validity in a tradition because they, like I said before, give a background, attributes, characteristics, etc to a god or goddess. But I do not believe they are real in that they actually happened.

That's my opinion anyway :)
--Serra

[Philosophia]

I believe that stories were metaphors for people to understand the world around them and how things came to be. IMO, mythology is a brilliant tool to look back on the past and see what they believed in and how they saw the world.
I also believe that every story has pieces of truth, just that its been fictionized to either help people understand or to give it greater emphasis and drama in story-telling.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I tend to look upon not only the myth itself but what was so important that that singular / cluster of myth (s) survived. Sort of a 'Of all the myths generated by a social system why did these particular myths survive?" In many way even the word usuage of the myth tells a great story and gives a picture into a time period either long ago or perhaps just last week (Urban Myths).

As a historian I known that todays people will be tomorrows heroes, tomorrows heroes will be the day afters demi-gods and those demi-gods will one day be gods in the future. As their stories grow and thier abilities increase and man speaks to the ideals of what they most favored in them will thier status grow.

Some will be known as fools, General George Armstrong Custer and the little Big Horn spring to mind. Yet few recall a man names Fetterman who suffered the same fate but a few years before.

Leonidas and the 300 come around every few years. Each instance their fame grows as does what they stood for yet each occurance is as if they were found for the first time.

How many of our statues and monuments will one day be seen as structure's built to the gods? Given that historical timeline say all societies go through the dynastic cycle so even as they rise so to must they fall. With each fall does a new mythos get born.

I known the US is barely over 200 years old yet our first years are shrouded in myth and speculation even now. Tall tales speak of Paul Revere's ride, Paul Bunyon, Pecos Bill, Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, The Alamo. That doesn't even touch upon the exploration years of 1500 - mid 1700's.

Look at the near god like awe that is used when one speaks of the 27th lancers and thier ride through the valley of death aka The Charge of the Light Brigrade. Immortalized in poem and painting and statuary.

[IceLupa]

These stories are mostly symbolic. I'll need to meditate on them. Arthurian legends, the Eddas and the Greek epics. Will have to come back later and post again.

[IceLupa]

With the King Arthur stories, none of the characters in there were real. The Grail is more of a spiritual purpose rather than an object. The sword Excalibur could be a symbol of what happened for real in ancient Europe. Swords were passed from king to the next king. I don't think the real Excalibur was a magic sword as such but a totem of inheritance. Merlin was fictional but there were people like him, not wizards but seers and druids. Camelot never existed either but it's a symbol again.

The Eddas are half based on what happened. The Greek myths and legends occured in the past, as it derives from other sources much older than Greece. There are rumours that items from myths such as the Golden Fleece is still around, it may not be as magical as in the stories but was used for another reason, like Excalibur. I don't know. :)

The Bible took segments of stories and wisdom from other beliefs.