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flar7
November 28th, 2001, 12:57 PM
Is it ok to lie? If so, when? If not, why?

Remember that telling lies(to me) is different then sparing someone from unnecessary pain or humiliation. Is the truth
worth hurting others? How much pain until the Truth is TOO
painful? 1 dead, 100 dead, 1000 dead, etc...

Just for debate and enlightenment, dont try to change someones
mind!


:boing::smooch:-he's such a liar!

MistOfTheSea86
November 29th, 2001, 01:40 AM
nice Thread Flar, I feel all truth would probably lead to thousands of nuclear wars lol. I mean some lies just occur and some MUST OCCUR. Just like sometimes Truth occurs and sometimes it MUST OCCUR.

Kadynas
December 2nd, 2001, 05:27 AM
I'd have to agree with Mist here...although for my part I'm a little too honest! :lol: I tend to blurt out exactly what I think at the most inopportune times! That and I can't really lie to people who know me very well; they learn to pick up on it after time. But there are definitely some occasions where you just need to lie...

For Example...

Mom: "Do I look fat in this, honey?"
Daughter: "No of course not! But I think I liked the blue dress better..."

:lol:

Eeluna
December 2nd, 2001, 09:46 AM
I have always believed in honesty, but I think that it's impossible to always be 100% honest. When the truth will hurt more than a lie, when the truth will cause irreparable damage, or
when the truth will HARM more than a lie, then it is the better choice to lie. Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about lying to make your life easier or more convenient. I think it is extremely important to be responsible for your actions and to take the consequences that you have brought about. However in certain situations, I believe the better ethical choice is to lie.

lucidfire
December 5th, 2001, 05:45 PM
here's one of my stranger beliefs. I view truth and fact as being two different things.

When it comes to truth, it's a bit like the concept of darma to me, where truth is really just a relative perception, and cannot be proven anymore than I could prove why I'm cool and you're not; saying truth is an opinion in other words.

Not that it's ok to lie; sometimes when people don't have faith in themselves though it's hard to be honest with others; it may seem that way, if you tell them what they want to hear, but if you don't believe it yourself, how honest are you really being? Sometimes telling the truth is simply a matter of translating your perception, other times it's give and take. Hard for me to generalize I guess

I guess motivation and intention are the determining factors for me though

dragonmagic64
December 14th, 2001, 08:49 PM
Only when we learn to be truthful with ourselves will we ever understand what real truth is. :angle:
If I am lieing to myself, then how am I to trust what I believe. I am a liar, and I will manipulate everyone including me. :flamer:
inorder to make any progress I must first start with being honest with myself. If I am truely honest with myself , then I will be able to be honest with all else . :devil:
until then I am a prisoner of my selfish :razz: ego

Myst
December 14th, 2001, 08:55 PM
People go on and on about the virtue of honesty when in reality half the time they don't want to hear it. I have been accused of many things just by stating the truth without frilling it. People pretend they want honesty but half the time they don't.

flar7
December 14th, 2001, 11:54 PM
that fact and truth are totally different. Although they can be
related to each other they dont have to be.

Lucidia
December 15th, 2001, 09:42 AM
well it depends on the situation if you ask me.

going along with my hubby's satanic view on "sin" for this one.... a sin is only committed when you do something that causes you to feel guilty.

if the lie doesn't make you guilty, then well... *shrugs* tell it. I mean.. you obviously aren't upset by it, so either way it don't see how it would matter.

If the lie bothers you, eats away at you, makes you guilty.. then you probably should tell the truth.

lying to loved ones, and family, most often hurts the most, on both sides.

i don't advocate lying, but people are going to do it anyway.

dragonmagic64
December 15th, 2001, 12:11 PM
:smoke:
so a man without a conscious is an honest man???
:nyah:
Just because you are comfortable with the lies you tell yourself and tell others , :huh: does this make the lies vindicated.
sin , funny thing about that word , it really means missing the mark. an archery term. :uzi: :shot:
It just means not being perfect.
Yet if we stop trying , then what is the purpose.
:nonono:
It's all good .
:bad: :evilway: :devil: :smoke:
all things will be paid for one way or the other. It's the law of karma :smash: you can't escape your debts , and you will be paid in full. We all will .
do what thou wilt , will be the whole of the law.
:eek:

Haedis
December 16th, 2001, 02:27 PM
The only instances where I believe a lie is justified is if for example: you promised to do something for someone, and they ask if you remembered to do it. And you lie and say you have, but immediately after you tell them that...you go out and make good on that promise. In that case IMO lying is acceptable (not neccessarily the greatest way to handle things but oh well). As long as you get it done, and they dont know the difference, theres no point in looking bad if you dont have to. Other than that telling the truth, no matter how brutal is advisable, I think. Although I have put my foot in my mouth FAR too many times for this so be very careful. hehe *shakes head sadly*

dragonmagic64
December 16th, 2001, 03:11 PM
:huh:
I must admit , although I don't like to lie I find myself putting myself into situations that I do lie.
like shooting myself in the :uzi: :shot: head
still it is in instances like these that I learn the leason of karma. The lie has cost me in a way I will pay for at a later date . REgaurdless of if I get caught :ugh: or not.
:eek:
and make no mistakes we always pay at some level. :flamer:
soem guilt is alway good for a little pain :devil:
through pain we find release .. ;)
then we begin to heal.
no more lieing no more pain.
no more pain . is the begining of peace. :rotfl:

mol
December 18th, 2001, 10:56 AM
One other thing to throw on the fire for you all.

How about this statement:

Truth is relative.

Arduinna
December 18th, 2001, 12:42 PM
I totally agree Mol.

I do believe in the truth, but sometimes people confuse the truth with opinion. I can't count how many times I've heard people state something as truth that was in fact opinion.

Myst
December 18th, 2001, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by dragonmagic64
It's the law of karma :smash: you can't escape your debts , and you will be paid in full. We all will .

Being as some people don't believe in karma...


Originally posted by dragonmagic64
Just because you are comfortable with the lies you tell yourself and tell others , does this make the lies vindicated.

To yourself? Yes. And being as you're the only one who knows yourself or has to deal with your life..

Truth IS relative. And people who say they never lie are lying.

mol
December 18th, 2001, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by dragonmagic64

all things will be paid for one way or the other. It's the law of karma :smash: you can't escape your debts , and you will be paid in full. We all will .
do what thou wilt , will be the whole of the law.
:eek:

Your law. Not mine.

Love is the Law, Love Under Will.

mato
December 19th, 2001, 04:13 AM
deception is the nature of things, a prey item tries to look bigger meaner and generally more dangerous than it really is, a preditor tends to try to draw as little attention to itself as possible by trying to appear less harmfull to it's prey or like something else to it's prey or its preditors. Now to me take this and apply it to humans and you have all that lieing seeks to accomplish, the stupid will try to sound smart the silly will try to be serious the preditors will try to sound harmless the prey will try to sound big and scarry, all in an attempt to manipulate others into a more favorable position for whatever you seek to accomplish. Now I dont see any real problem in this, it is the order of things, conscious manipulation of these generally unconscious acts is actually helpful to any one in every social situation.

In other words lying gets you places, the truth.... eh not so much.

Examples of modern day deceptions to get ahead, make up high heels the tie clothing in general posture attitude simple social interaction, whether you know it or not you are constantly deciving people and manipulating them to gain an advantage. lying is not only necessary but aslo the basis of society, breeding and nature herself! To me there is no real difference between a little white lie "yes dear I took the garbage out" and the larger "Do you feel lucky punk", both are geared towards the same thing, living for through the next few moments...

(sp's all over:))

lucidfire
December 19th, 2001, 08:16 AM
somehow, I don't think karma was intended to sound like just another word for hell or something, that if you do bad things bad things will happen. It's more cause and effect, you reap what you sow, not much of a threat though really, for people who don't know anything to begin with.

then you have dharma, the other side, which always meant to me that truth is relative to a point at which it can be perceived

Goodwinjj
December 22nd, 2001, 03:05 AM
Truth should be spoke only if it does not devistate some one to the point of destruction. Some people would be totally crushed if they heard the truth all the time due to a low self-esteem. Truth is relative, but use truth wisely.
...
/|\

Xander67
December 29th, 2001, 07:32 PM
I agree with Myst and Mol here

Truth is Relative
and I would like to add my opinion

Perspective is Objective

reality and truth

relative and objective

truth is truth, but truth leads to Perspective and can therefore be objective it is the natural order...

its all in the marketing LOL

thats how i see it NOW, it may change a few days from now ....but that is part of Growing and learning

dragonmagic64
December 29th, 2001, 07:57 PM
truth never changes
so what never changes , and you have truth.
our perspective changes all the time. So we live a lie.
It doesn't matter what we believe, if we lie to ourselves, then truth really doesn't matter does it , only our perspective.
way discuss something non of us care anything about , why not talk about perspective instead.

flar7
December 29th, 2001, 07:59 PM
but whether it is ok to tell lies at times or should one always speak the truth?(the truth as they know it.)

Myst
December 29th, 2001, 08:06 PM
"no that outfit doesn't make you look fat"

"of course I'll be there at 7"

"let's be friends"

"it's not you, it's me"

"and santa leaves presents for good boys and girls"

"of course I trust you"

"I would never look at another woman"

Xander67
December 29th, 2001, 08:22 PM
thanks Flar LOL

see? even when Im On topic im off topic LOL


7:00? hope that was pm myst, LOL 7am me, there LOL
that means up at 5am or something oh heck no now way

yeah i will be there at 7.......
but i didnt specify am or pm LOL

me look at other women? never!
well, not directly at her so as to be obvious.....

Yes I have to say with some reservation.....
although it can hurt, Id rather know the truth and then I can decide for my self what to do based on that truth!

Haedis
December 29th, 2001, 11:43 PM
wow that about summed it up Myst. hehe

dragonmagic64
December 30th, 2001, 12:31 PM
:evilway:
when My son asked me about santa clause , I said to him "all of 4yr", Ronny do you want the truth or a story.... he said the truth . so I told him./ The next year he asked the same thing , I said Ronny I told you the truth last year , he said, "now 5 ",tell me a story , 3 years later he said okay tell me the truth. :boing:
really ron let me know when he was emotionally ready for the truth.
I find that when I ask if someone wants the truth or a story , most often everyone says they want the truth, but that in its self is a lie, they want a story, I am including myself in this. :nyah:
most of the time people aren't emotionally ready for the truth, but when we get ready life seems a little more clear.

Truth :devil: does set you free :flamer:, if you can handle giving and recieving it. :evilway:

Myst
December 30th, 2001, 06:52 PM
The truth can also cause arguments and fights and start wars.

Xander67
December 30th, 2001, 07:04 PM
or alot of other things......
like breakups.....
looseing a job....
getting told to pack up and leave.....

but all of these are results of truths that in most cases involved a decision where each person involved knew the consequences of his/actions


cause and effect.....
cheat on me......you find a new home
break company rules.....you get to get a new job:)

Myst
December 30th, 2001, 07:32 PM
We're not making enough money..you get fired
She found a new boyfriend..you get dumped
She says let's be friends..she never speaks to you again, ignoring your calls

uhm... ;)

Xander67
December 30th, 2001, 07:45 PM
theres gotta be some practical example here somewhere of some thing GOOD coming outta truth.......hmmmm lemme meditate on this AUUUUUMMMMMMARMITE!........:(

no ......nothing! but i will keep trying LOL i will find a good illustration here somewhere LOL

Myst
December 31st, 2001, 06:22 AM
When I come to MW and even hint that I strongly agree or that I think what someone said is stupid it becomes very clear whether some people really want to hear the truth all the time.

Honesty is great, absolute honesty can be bad.

LilydePlume
December 31st, 2001, 12:15 PM
when they want to hear it , because if someone is bound and determined to believe otherwise no amount of "truth "will sway them.
And even people who go about hammering other people with their "truth" dont like it when it that hammer comes down on them. If you honor someone with your "truthful opinion" dont be surprised when they honor you with theirs in return ; lol.
No one person has the corner or market on truth .
Then again there are people who will manipulate and lie to people to gain their own ends .some people even mistake this for friendship.
Some intersting quotes on truth .....Were vagueness enough, and the sweet lies plenty,
The hollow words could bear all suffering
And cure me of ills.
-- Dylan Thomas
Every violation of truth is not only a sort of suicide in the liar, but is a stab at the health of human society. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Lying rides upon debt's back. -- Benjamin Franklin

If a lie is repeated often enough all the dumb jackasses in the world not only get to believe it, they even swear by it. -- Billy Boy Franklin

Liars need to have good memories. -- Algernon Sidney

Lying is like alcoholism. You are always recovering. -- Steven Soderbergh

If you do not wish to be lied to, do not ask questions. If there were no questions, there would be no lies. -- B. Traven

A lie would have no sense unless the truth were felt dangerous.
- Alfred Adler

A small deviation to those who depart from truth becomes in its progress ten thousand times greater.
- Aristotle

We are never deceived: we deceive ourselves.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

We lie loudest when we lie to ourselves.
- Eric Hoffer

The foundation of all morality is to have done, once and for all, with lying; to give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibilities of knowledge.
- Thomas Henry Huxley

A fact never went into partnership with a miracle. Truth scorns the assistance of wonders. A fact will fit every other fact in the universe, and that is how you can tell whether it is or is not a fact. A lie will not fit anything except another lie.
- Robert G. Ingersoll

There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it.
- William James

The first thing a man will do for his ideals is lie.
- J.A. Schumpeter

Various kinds of ideas can be classified by their relationship to the authentication process. There are ideas systematically prepared for authentication ("theories"), ideas not derived from any systematic process ("visions"), ideas which could not survive any reasonable authentication process ("illusions"), ideas which exempt themselves from any authentication process ("myths"), ideas which have already passed authentication processes ("facts"), as well as ideas known to have failed- or certain to fail- such processes ("falsehoods" - both mistakes and lies).
- Thomas Sowell

The cruelest lies are often told in silence.
- Robert Louis Stevenson

When whole races and peoples conspire to propagate gigantic mute lies in the interest of tyrannies and shams, why should we care anything about the trifling lies told by individuals?
- Mark Twain

The history of the race, and each individual's experience, are thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal.
- Mark Twain


"Please don't lie to me, unless you're absolutely sure I'll never find out the truth."
Ashleigh Brilliant

"It is always good policy to tell the truth unless of course you are an exceptionally
good liar."
Jerome K. Jerome

"It is hard to believe that a man is telling the truth when you know
that you would lie if you were in his place."
H. L. Mencken

"A lie told often enough becomes truth."
Lenin (Vladimir Ulyanov)

"History is a set of lies agreed upon."
Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

"Everyone believes very easily whatever they fear or desire"
Jean de La Fontaine

"Legend: a lie that has attained the dignity of age"
Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)

"The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a big lie
than to a small one. "
Adolf Hitler

"People never lie so much as after a hunt, during a war or before an election. "
Otto von Bismarck

"I stopped believing in Santa Claus when I was six. Mother took me to see him in a department store and he asked for my autograph."
Shirley Temple Black



Never forget that a half truth is a whole lie. -- Source Unknown

A lie can run around the world before the truth can get it's boots on. -- James Watt

BB
LP

Myst
December 31st, 2001, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by LilydePlume
Then again there are people who will manipulate and lie to people to gain their own ends

Isn't that the truth.

LilydePlume
December 31st, 2001, 12:56 PM
most assuredly ..... we agree.
BB
LP

lucidfire
December 31st, 2001, 02:22 PM
very interesting thread
I like what xander said about perspective :)

dragonmagic64
January 5th, 2002, 08:13 PM
:evilway:
does it matter?
I mean truth ,
Personal
social
philosophical
theological (did I spell that right)
don't ask the quesiton if you don't want to know what someone feels/thinks/ believes is the truth.
(question) : Right??? :D
I'll live by the truth for one week , and see what it gets me. I feel it will hurt at first , but eventually , like any other addiction , I will be relased from the addiction of lieing. Perhapes this is a lie in it self. hahahahah. sad hu :devil:
you know perhapes one week is too much . How about this, I will try not to lie for the rest of the day . if I make it through tonight and tomarrow I haven't lied yet , then I will try tomarrow. I'll post my results and see how long I can go. Anyone else up to the challange????

dragonmagic64
January 6th, 2002, 11:58 AM
:evilway:
Although I think I told the truth the rest of the day and even this morning, I'm not sure. Unless I'm consiously thinking about telllng the truth all the time, I go on auto pilot. :eek:
:woah: so to make sure I am telling the truth , and remember I must try to stay in the moment. :ugh:
I work in sales, :smoke: is it possable to sell , and be honest all the time??? what is honest. Is not lieing , still considered being honest. For instance if someone askes you a question, and you answer without answering the question specifically , yet you answer truthfully , even though you are leading the person away from their original question , is this still being honest. In my heart I would have to say no. :wah:
although not tech. a lie ::flamer: , it's still not being honest.
oh well . perhapes staying in the moment will shed some light on the possability's of being honest.
does the world allow you to be honest?????:mad:
hmmmmmmmm?????????

LilydePlume
January 6th, 2002, 12:14 PM
It is a very personal thing .....
I mean lets take the difference between changing a nickname on a message board ..... and lying to your spouse about why you are taking a vacation in another country ( because you are meeting someone) .
Rather large difference........ to me anyway ........
Saying to someone " I think if you go to America your soul will die ( what is she, a script writer for Bin Laden?), and then telling your husband and anyone else who would believe you LOL someone HYPNOTISED me into saying that.
Someone actually DID that, believe that one or not LOL. and part of the tragedy of it was she didnt have to lie , because on the other side of the fence sat someone so willing to believe ANYTHING said by this person they resemble a baby bird with their mouth open waiting for someone to stuff something in.
And there is the other side of the coin as well. How about the people who are DESPERATE to believe , the needy ones who have to believe something; so they take the truth and twist and bend it until it no longer resembles reality . The ones whose reality checks bounce daily , are they responsible , and ultimately are we responsible ;for what we believe?
So do we tell untruths and visit that place uncomfortably at times, or sometimes even as the trickster arranging a "surprise birthday party or shower " with those little white lies or do we live in the land of lies trapped in a bubble of eternal untruth ?
It is like the questions of harm,
in order to live on this earth we have to do harm ; but how much do we do and do we do it consciously .
BB
LP

Danustouch
January 6th, 2002, 03:38 PM
Why does this sound so familiar?????

Myst
January 6th, 2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by flar7
Remember that telling lies(to me) is different then sparing someone from unnecessary pain or humiliation

So if you say "that dress doesn't make you look fat" it's not lying, but sparing someone's feelings..

But if you're lying purely for your own good - not in any way to spare someone's feelings - that's bad?

I think that's actually probably right. Tho I can see "degrees of bad" in the latter :)

Xander67
January 6th, 2002, 05:03 PM
but then again....
saying "the dress does or does not make you look fat"

isnt that a statement of perception

fact... you are wearing a dress

how it makes you look to someone is a matter of idividual perception...

or am I just answering my own confuesuion here....

*sips Lemonaide :)

Xander67
January 6th, 2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Danustouch
Why does this sound so familiar?????

:eek: De JA Thread!!! ;)

Myst
January 6th, 2002, 05:09 PM
It may be a matter of perception.

But then there are those who tell you wearing white pants DOES make you look fat in fact, due to the nature of the colour and how it emphasizes a thicker waist, bigger butt, or wider hips.

But then, even if it is someone's perception - does that mean it's no longer an untruth? If someone asks your opinion isn't the truth automatically your opinion, in your eyes, and if you don't tell that opinion, you aren't telling your truth?

Xander67
January 6th, 2002, 05:18 PM
:( I knew I wasn't safe from the color war here :D

yes, color does influence our perception....

but then we would have to ask...

what constitutes being FAT....over a size 4, 5, ...7???

100lbs 200lbs???

no one seems to agree on that one....

obviously a 250 person with a gut bigger than a keg of Beer, now that is fat!

You have a good Point Myst, and now I have to ask
is there a fine line between perception and fact....

flar7
January 6th, 2002, 07:41 PM
myst is close on this one. If my wife doesnt look good in the
dress, that is my opinion, my truth. Now, she obviously loves the
dress and perhaps I am biased on it. So, I can tell my truth and
hurt her feelings or tell a white lie and spare them.
This can of course later blow up in your face when everyone else
thinks the dress is hideous and she explodes on you for not
telling her! LOL Life is full of little pitfalls.

Xander67
January 6th, 2002, 07:55 PM
hmmmm

so then, there is something to be said about

"anticipated perception" then :cool:

Myst
January 7th, 2002, 07:28 AM
Xander, it doesn't matter if it is perception or fact.

Someone who says "does this make me look fat" wants your perception.

If you don't tell your perception, you are lying, regardless of facts.

dragonmagic64
January 7th, 2002, 01:00 PM
:evilway:
perhapes it's all a big lie.
reality that is :confused:
It would then be inprobable to live this life without the lie because it is what the foundation of this existance is. :bad:
If one was to reject the lie as a whole and only live in the truth, provided there is such a thing, they(the person) would awaken from this lie and be freed from the chains that bind them to this :devil: prison created out of the lie we except as truth every day. :bug: . :flamer: oh to have the courage to face the lies we have told , believed and excepted as truth, :eek: Our internal damnation has been cast by our own wickedness / or :meanhead:
more likely our own lazyness, or a better term, our inate inperfection , (hence original sin) . :zzz: hey wake up :zzz: alright I'm comeing off my soap box. :nonono:
got a LITTLE crazy there :scream:
medication is starting to kick in , feeling better...... :wave: see ya