Wallmart 's Devil Costume Kit

[MorningDove030202]

Not that there is a whole lot I can do about it, but I saw a devil costume kit at walmart today that realy makes me angry. The kit had the horns and teeth, but not any clothing. It also contained a huge pentacle about 4 inches across that looks alot like my Peter Stone Pentacle. Here is a picture of my pentacle: http://www.peterstone.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=TC122&Category_Code=_Pentacles&Store_Code=peterstone (http://www.peterstone.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=TC122&Category_Code=_Pentacles&Store_Code=peterstone)

It was solid, instead of cut threw, and had a red plastic gem in the center and was HUGE! It had the clasic Peter Stone brades work around the out side of it. What a total rip off of Peter Stone, and what a huge source of misunderstanding for Pagans and Wiccans!!

Maybe if I point this out to Peter Stone, they can do something about copy right infringment?

I'd like to ask others to check out their local walmart and post here if you see the costume kit I am talking about, and your thoughts please!

Dove

[Mithrea]

oooo I think I'm going to go to Walmart today, here in Charlotte.

I've been a little upset because the Walmart at home as *NO* Halloween stuff whatsoever and the why makes me nervous.

[SSanf]

So, what do you expect from a store that has a whole area devoted to Christian books and no Pagan or other kinds of books what-so-ever?

It does not come as any big news flash that Wal-Mart is a flaming Christian store. It has been for years.

I think there was a big law suit about them dismissing any Pagan employee they found several years back.

[Malcolm]

Maybe if I point this out to Peter Stone, they can do something about copy right infringment?

I don't think you can copyright a religious icon...I could be wrong though.

[MorningDove030202]

True, but it still mystifies me why such a Christian store would have a devil costume in it at all........ Dove


So, what do you expect from a store that has a whole area devoted to Christian books and no Pagan or other kinds of books what-so-ever?

It does not come as any big news flash that Wal-Mart is a flaming Christian store. It has been for years.

I think there was a big law suit about them dismissing any Pagan employee they found several years back.

[Ben Gruagach]

True, but it still mystifies me why such a Christian store would have a devil costume in it at all........ Dove

It's because there are some Christians who feel that the way to drive away competitors (like Hallowe'en which they see as clearly Pagan) is to reinforce as many of the negative stereotypes as they can.

Play up the Satanic connections, the devils and evil and violence, and it's a lot easier for them to justify railing against it as corrupting children.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I dont care...letting that bug ya is almost as bad as the pagans getting their panties in a knot over witch costumes...its only halloween. take it with a grain of salt.

[Malcolm]

Exactly.

[SSanf]

The point is that it even more firmly perpetuates the stereotype that the pentagram, the symbol of Wicca and one that is used by many other Pagans, is associated with the devil and those wearing it are "evil" or influenced by the devil.

You know, we are the fastest growing religious movement in the country and they are running scared that we are undermining all those potential future pledging units that are supposed to pay off the big mortgages they have incurred on those monstrosity churches.

Of course, they are going to try to undermine, misrepresent us and scare people away from Paganism using any technique they can including associating our religious symbols with the ultimate representation of evil.

It is a very old and standard propaganda technique called "Transfer".

Transfer:

Transfer is another of the seven main propaganda terms first used by the Institute for Propaganda Analysis in 1938. Transfer is often used in politics and during wartime. It is an attempt to make the subject view a certain item in the same way as they view another item, to link the two in the subjects mind. Although this technique is often used to transfer negative feelings for one object to another, it can also be used in positive ways. By linking an item to something the subject respects or enjoys, positive feelings can be generated for it. However, in politics, transfer is most often used to transfer blame or bad feelings from one politician to another of his friends or party members, or even to the party itself. When confronted with propaganda using the transfer technique, we should question the merits or problems of the proposal or idea independently of convictions about other objects or proposals.

To read more about propaganda techniques look here.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0111500/proptech.htm (http://library.thinkquest.org/C0111500/proptech.htm)

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Wal-Mart would have a devil Halloween costume because IT'S HALLOWEEN. People dress up in wierd outfits and costumes, remember?
I do not see Christians getting all pissed off and threatening lawsuits when they see Naughty Nun costumes that include a habit, cross, and little else; or those little vampire medallion things which are always cross-shaped. It's most likely that whoever designed the costume did a Google image search for 'Satan symbol' and found pentacles - I just did so, and a lot of them cropped up.
As for Wal-Mart not hiring pagans, well, my (gay) best friend worked at Wal-Mart and he's pretty damn pagan.
Of course, it could just be a massive Christian plot. After all, if people see someone wearing a devil costume with a pentacle necklace, they'll assume that everyone who wears pentacle necklaces ALSO wear devil costumes! It makes SO MUCH SENSE now!
GROW UP AND GET OVER IT.
And yes, I am a jerk.

[Malcolm]

Its a costume. They were it to celebrate a commercial holiday.

Honestly who cares.

If you believe what wal-mart tells you...I don't want you in my religion.

[SSanf]

As for Wal-Mart not hiring pagans, well, my (gay) best friend worked at Wal-Mart and he's pretty damn pagan.
Yes, they do NOW. I believe they had to be taken to court over it, though. In fact, I am pretty sure about that though I don't know where a link to it is any more. It was a while back.

[IvyWitch]

Honestly the people who believe that the pentagram/pentacle is associated with satanism and therefore all wiccan are satanists are the same people who believe we're hellbound evil demons anyway.

Though, I will be quite upset if said pentacle actually has Celtic knotwork around it. Then I would find that offensive.

[Ben Gruagach]

Whether we like it or not, Satanists do use the pentagram too as one of their symbols. Let's not make the mistake of thinking that any one group "owns" the symbol.

I do think though that if WalMart clearly ripped of a particular pentagram design from a living artist that the artist should at the very least ask WalMart to respect their copyright and remove the pentacle for a more generic one.

[Lynleigh]

Honestly who cares.

I agree!

Why can't we just enjoy the day for what it is? Why does it have to become some kind of power struggle?

[halfwaynowhere]

did walmart even make this product, or do they just carry it? seems like people are putting the blame on the wrong corporation... most store bought halloween costumes are so cheaply made and tacky that nobody takes them seriously anyways... i wouldn't worry too much about it... not many bible thumpers are going to dress up as the devil for halloween anyways...

[Protagonist]

Yeah; Satanists associate themselves with the pentacle, too, apparently.

[DragonsChest]

Though, I will be quite upset if said pentacle actually has Celtic knotwork around it. Then I would find that offensive.

Why is this? Does having Celtic knotwork around it change it somehow? Simply asking because I don't understand. Thanks!

[Malcolm]

Because everything celtic is automatically the property of the wiccan/pagan movement...Didn't you get the memo?

[DragonsChest]

One of my favorite Halloween costumes is my devil costume. I even wore it to work one year, when Halloween fell on a Friday.

Now, I work in IT for a Catholic hospital, (in a different building that the actual hospital,) and here I show up dressed all in red, with red makeup and lipstick, with the horns, tail, and pitchfork. Everyone in the department loved it - but I was asked by the CIO of the hospital to please remove the horns and tail, and to leave off the pitchfork if I was called on to do a service ticket in the hospital. Apparently he was worried that I would be walking through the halls, and someone might be coming to from the drugs or just wake up from a nap, and think they had died and gone to Hell!

Ah, good times.

[HPS_Mysta]

Oh for the love of....Remind me to dress up as the devil if I go to you. What the hell is wrong with it? If we're going to go crying over devils let's snarl over witches, and vampires. Because you know there are really vampires who are nothing like the genre. Then again let's piss about fairies and angels. And before you know it you'll be so caught up in political correctness there will BE NO DRESSING UP EVER!

I say so what? Dress as who the hell you like and those who don't like it...GET OVER IT.

There are many bad things that associate themselves with the pentagram as there are many good. You can't just say the pentagram is ONLY something and THIS shouldn't be allowed on halloween...you'll become that which you hate. You'll become as bad as those who fire people for their religion.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Apparently he was worried that I would be walking through the halls, and someone might be coming to from the drugs or just wake up from a nap, and think they had died and gone to Hell!

Oh my God, that's hilarious!

[DragonsChest]

Oh my God, that's hilarious!

Oh yeah, we really laughed over that one. :tongueout I did as he asked. :crazyman:

[Nova]

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product_listing.gsp?cat=439816&path=0%3A5428%3A434098%3A439816 (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product_listing.gsp?cat=439816&path=0%3A5428%3A434098%3A439816)

I believe this is the pointy-toothed mask in question. It doesn't say anything about coming with jewelry. But I guess it might. The Rubies company is responsible for the costume. You can check them out at www.rubies.com (www.rubies.com) - the evil clown thing they have on their flash makes me want to cry. ;_;
:smoke:
The pentacle doesn't really bother me as much as maybe it should. Other than the size of it sounding very "bling." They should've made it a spinner pentacle.

:fofftopic
I think we're missing the real point, which is that Walmart is an evil corporation. Let's all shop at Costco. I like the one where Walmart puts in a store you can see from the top of a sacred Aztec pyramid:

http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-bzcov1108,0,7173026.story?coll=ny-business-headlines (http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-bzcov1108,0,7173026.story?coll=ny-business-headlines)

[Avalon]

Now I want to be a naughty nun. :halohead:

[Sequoia]

Oh, for the love of...

Don't you have something more important to feel persecuted over?

It's a costume. Of a fictional character. If a big, fake, plastic pentacle is enough to get you all up in arms, I'd hate to see how you will react when the modern populace actually knows what "a pagan" is, other than a phrase medieval Christians yelled at the country bumpkins.

Have you ever worn a nun costume? Man, that's a hell of a lot more insulting than someone wearing a big fake pentacle (which is not "Property of the Pagans", no matter how much you try to tell your parents "I'm not like those Goths/Satanists/Mystics/Occultists/Punks"). I mean, a nun's habit is only supposed to be worn when you've dedicated your life to God, and only God. Imagine how you would feel if... well, actually, I'm not sure there's a paralell that I might compare such a scale of devotion to in modern paganism. Modern paganism is kind of a "do-it-yourself, make-up-your-religion-and-history-and-ceremonies" thing. I know of no Pagan Convents as of yet. No, Buddhism and other established religions don't count.

Oh well. At least there's something for folks to do. EVIL WALMART IS AT IT AGAIN! PERSECUTING PAGANS! LET'S GO! CAPTAIN PLANET- I MEAN, CAPTAIN PAGAN! TO THE RESCUE!

Erm... and whoever said their walmart was only Christian... man, that must suck. Both walmarts within 20 miles of this area, and all that I visited in Arizona, have lots of different books, and even carry stuff like incense, burners, candles, moon-and-stars stuff that most "evil X-ians" would hate, herbal/earthy products for around the home... But... I guess that doesn't matter. Because everybody knows that Walmart is evil. They never help anybody, and any discrimination they had years ago is still relevant. We can let all the companies who wouldn't hire women or blacks go, because they changed. But Walmart is evil. They must have pact with Satan, to have such low prices. And they beat puppies. How can we allow such evil? Puppy beating!

[IvyWitch]

Why is this? Does having Celtic knotwork around it change it somehow? Simply asking because I don't understand. Thanks!

Well, I would be a little upset if the devil was wearing a claughdah or a piece of knotwork. To me that would imply that someone out there thinks there's a direct connection between Irish culture and the Christian symbol of ultimate evil.

[Meadhbh]

Now I want to be a naughty nun. :halohead:

A male friend a mine went one year as a pregnant nun, it was both funny and disturbing. There are enough things in the world to be upset about, than what walmart does. We can't let every little thing bother us.

[IvyWitch]

Because everything celtic is automatically the property of the wiccan/pagan movement...Didn't you get the memo?

Did I say that? Or did you just assume I was implying such?

[ravenscape]

This thread would make a great parody of all the anti-Halloween hysteria that will be posting on web forums by the most humorless of Christian Fundies within the next couple weeks. :D

Pentagrams are associated with some forms of Satanism. Usually upside-down, indicating the ascendance of the material over the spiritual.

Early Christians also used the Pentagram symbol. The 5 points represented the 5 wounds inflicted upon Christ during the crucifixion.

The symbol is also used by Freemasons, to represent five holy women from the Bible. It is usually point-down in Freemasonry.

[IvyWitch]

Is it just me or are there a lot of threads talking about the evils of Walmart here lately...? Maybe it's just me :rotfl:

[DragonsChest]

Well, I would be a little upset if the devil was wearing a claughdah or a piece of knotwork. To me that would imply that someone out there thinks there's a direct connection between Irish culture and the Christian symbol of ultimate evil.

Ah, okay. I understand now. Thanks for the info. :)

[Sequoia]

Is it just me or are there a lot of threads talking about the evils of Walmart here lately...? Maybe it's just me :rotfl:
I don't know - I think people just inherently feel threatened by corporations as large as Walmart. Nevermind that it was essentially created and maintained (to this day) by a single family (hence being a family owned business). Nevermind that they had aid ready to go at the first WORD of a hurricane - they didn't even wait for the levees to break. Nevermind that they pay TEN dollars an hour around here, WITH BENEFITS. Nevermind that every friggin' Walmart employee I've met in person has been happy, and said they liked working there. Nevermind a thousand other positive things.

It's big, it's "faceless", and that makes it mean and anti-little-guy-minority-pagan. Even if other stores are carrying the costume, only Walmart is evil for it. Because they're Walmart. Plain and simple.

[MockingbirdOxygen]

hmmm I tried to post a few minutes ago and the computer ate my post... let's try this again... maybe I was supposed to reword something...lol

now if they had a George W. costume with a pentacle, THAT would be scary... :lookaroun

But anyway, as for the devil costuming giving the pentacle a bad name, I can see where some of the people are coming from; I guess we'll have to just keep wearing our pentacles and trying to be positive examples ourselves :sunny:

I think the irony is that Walmart representatives, or maybe just the majority of Christians who protest about certain things they might otherwise sell, - they probably don't realize that it's not the overtly pagan symbols/pentacle/devil suit they have to watch out for...
:deviltail

They also sell just about all the supplies as cheaply as you could ever need to make your own pagan creations, infusing them with your own "energies" and thereby giving the creations even more power!
:dancy:

(not that I would ever do such a thing) :whistle:
oops so much for my postive example theory... :2G:

[MorningDove030202]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say something like this...

I give a damn because not only does religious discrimination happen, but also religous violence. I have a son, granted he doesn't wear a pentacle, but I do and I feel it's my duity to protect him from harm. This assocation of Wicca with Satanism could be harmful and I feel it's my duity to educate others (in socialy aproprate instances) that this association is false. It would be a dishonor to my Goddess Athena if I didn't care.

Do I feel persecuted? Yes, by some of the people posting at this thread. Still, when I see something as a potential source of misunderstanding and fear, I try to correct it for the good of all, even if some seam to be content with the status quo.

Dove


I dont care...letting that bug ya is almost as bad as the pagans getting their panties in a knot over witch costumes...its only halloween. take it with a grain of salt.

[MorningDove030202]

It's one point up, if it was two points up I probably wouldn't have said anything. I guess I'm taking it so personaly because it look so much like my own pentacle.
Dove


Whether we like it or not, Satanists do use the pentagram too as one of their symbols. Let's not make the mistake of thinking that any one group "owns" the symbol.

I do think though that if WalMart clearly ripped of a particular pentagram design from a living artist that the artist should at the very least ask WalMart to respect their copyright and remove the pentacle for a more generic one.

[MorningDove030202]

Nope, that's not it. What I saw is not a mask, it's Horns you glue to your head and teeth you put into your mouth with the huge hub cap of a pentacle.
Dove


http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product_listing.gsp?cat=439816&path=0%3A5428%3A434098%3A439816 (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product_listing.gsp?cat=439816&path=0%3A5428%3A434098%3A439816)

I believe this is the pointy-toothed mask in question. It doesn't say anything about coming with jewelry. But I guess it might. The Rubies company is responsible for the costume. You can check them out at www.rubies.com (www.rubies.com) - the evil clown thing they have on their flash makes me want to cry. ;_;
:smoke:
The pentacle doesn't really bother me as much as maybe it should. Other than the size of it sounding very "bling." They should've made it a spinner pentacle.

:fofftopic
I think we're missing the real point, which is that Walmart is an evil corporation. Let's all shop at Costco. I like the one where Walmart puts in a store you can see from the top of a sacred Aztec pyramid:

http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-bzcov1108,0,7173026.story?coll=ny-business-headlines (http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-bzcov1108,0,7173026.story?coll=ny-business-headlines)

[Malcolm]

Did I say that? Or did you just assume I was implying such?

Well both actually, I assumed you implied it.

Mostly I was just being sarcastic though.

Nice move bolding the first three letters of assume, that was clever.:thumbsup:

[MorningDove030202]

It's a costume. Of a fictional character.

To us fictional, but very much real to others, like my boss at work and my in-laws.

Dove

[Tzhebee]

This assocation of Wicca with Satanism could be harmful and I feel it's my duity to educate others (in socialy aproprate instances) that this association is false.
OK, before I get up on my high horse and jump down your throat, I'm going to ask for an explanation of this statement. With particular emphasis on the underlined portion, because to my way of reading it you are saying it's OK to be associated with Wicca, but to be associated with Satanism or combine the two is "harmful". So harmful in fact that you need to educate people on it. :shaker:

Again...before I say anything (else) I would like to give you the opportunity to expand your statement: basically, did I misinterpret what you said or did I hit the nail on the head?

[IvyWitch]

Nice move bolding the first three letters of assume, that was clever.:thumbsup:

Well, you know, I try. :smile:

[MorningDove030202]

Fair enough, let me give you some examples of harm....

Walmart sells this satan costume, people wear it and the pentacle (one point up) for halloween. It's viewed by man, probably 1000s, all over the US.....

1) I work at an animal hospital. I'm a pet nurse. Someone sees my pentacle and thinks I'm an evil person who might harm their pet. We lose a client, I might loose my job eventualy or be asked to not wear my pentacle.

2) My son is in pre-school. Teachers/Staff see my pentacle, they think I might harm my child. They tip off the police and I'm investigated by a child welfare organization.

3)Treachers/Staff see my pentacle and assume I'm a devil worshiper. They might try to covertly teach my son about Christianity and turn him away from me.

4)Possibly when my son is older, other students might notice my pentacle and think it would be cool to vandalize my house, or otherwise harrass my son. Parents mght look the other way because they think we are evil.

Dove



OK, before I get up on my high horse and jump down your throat, I'm going to ask for an explanation of this statement. With particular emphasis on the underlined portion, because to my way of reading it you are saying it's OK to be associated with Wicca, but to be associated with Satanism or combine the two is "harmful". So harmful in fact that you need to educate people on it. :shaker:

Again...before I say anything (else) I would like to give you the opportunity to expand your statement: basically, did I misinterpret what you said or did I hit the nail on the head?

[MorningDove030202]

Fair enough, let me give you some examples of harm....

Walmart sells this satan costume, people wear it and the pentacle (one point up) for halloween. It's viewed by many, probably 1000s, all over the US.....

1) I work at an animal hospital. I'm a pet nurse. Someone sees my pentacle and thinks I'm an evil person who might harm their pet. We lose a client, I might loose my job eventualy or be asked to not wear my pentacle.

2) My son is in pre-school. Teachers/Staff see my pentacle, they think I might harm my child. They tip off the police and I'm investigated by a child welfare organization.

3)Treachers/Staff see my pentacle and assume I'm a devil worshiper. They might try to covertly teach my son about Christianity and turn him away from me.

4)Possibly when my son is older, other students might notice my pentacle and think it would be cool to vandalize my house, or otherwise harrass my son. Parents mght look the other way because they think we are evil.

Dove



OK, before I get up on my high horse and jump down your throat, I'm going to ask for an explanation of this statement. With particular emphasis on the underlined portion, because to my way of reading it you are saying it's OK to be associated with Wicca, but to be associated with Satanism or combine the two is "harmful". So harmful in fact that you need to educate people on it. :shaker:

Again...before I say anything (else) I would like to give you the opportunity to expand your statement: basically, did I misinterpret what you said or did I hit the nail on the head?

[IvyWitch]

Fair enough, let me give you some examples of harm....

Walmart sells this satan costume, people wear it and the pentacle (one point up) for halloween. It's viewed by many, probably 1000s, all over the US.....

1) I work at an animal hospital. I'm a pet nurse. Someone sees my pentacle and thinks I'm an evil person who might harm their pet. We lose a client, I might loose my job eventualy or be asked to not wear my pentacle.

2) My son is in pre-school. Teachers/Staff see my pentacle, they think I might harm my child. They tip off the police and I'm investigated by a child welfare organization.

3)Treachers/Staff see my pentacle and assume I'm a devil worshiper. They might try to covertly teach my son about Christianity and turn him away from me.

4)Possibly when my son is older, other students might notice my pentacle and think it would be cool to vandalize my house, or otherwise harrass my son. Parents mght look the other way because they think we are evil.

Dove

So....you're saying your life might be ruined because of a Halloween costume? Come on.....

Speaking out against discrimination is one thing, but personally I think you're getting really carried away. Do you have any idea how many death metal and similar bands put the pentagram/pentacle on T-shirts that thousands of people buy and wear? I have seen several of those shirts on men and women wearing too much black makeup, jewelry and bright red nail polish. No one has assumed that since I am wearing a pentacle that I:
1. Am a fan of whatever band happens to have it on thier album cover this year
2. Am a satanist or evil or a threat to society
3. Have no fashion sense or am a pesudo-goth.

I really think there are better things to worry about, and you are really out in left field with this one.

[BlueMoon13]

With particular emphasis on the underlined portion, because to my way of reading it you are saying it's OK to be associated with Wicca, but to be associated with Satanism or combine the two is "harmful". So harmful in fact that you need to educate people on it. :shaker:


Hhmmmm....I see your point. I also see Morning Dove's too. It's far more acceptable these days to be associated with Wicca than with Satanism, and I don't blame her for being, shall we say, "uncomfortable". Some of us are very,very lucky to have family (including in-laws),neighbours, employers,etc. who get it, that Wiccans/witches are no more evil than anyone else, simply that they follow religious practices or lifestyles which are vastly different from what most people are familiar with. I'm not sure how many people would be able to deal with someone being as forthright about being a Satanist,more's the pity IMO. Everyone who knows me knows I'm a witch, and I've not encountered a problem. If I they knew I was a Satanic witch, well....who knows? :hrmm:

On another note, if that medallion is as big as Morning Dove says-sounds to me the most offensive about it is that it tres' tacky :crown: .

[Tzhebee]

I understand how people may conscrew the meaning of a pentacle...but what does that have to do with comparing satanism to wicca? I'm still lost.

Unless you are thinking that if someone see's a star on a devil costume then they are going to automatically associate every star they see with the devil...which is stupid.

[ravenscape]

My suggestion to anyone who is worried that Halloween costumes lead to religious discrimination ~~

Register on a couple of "mainstream" religious forums and make your arguments to people who may actually believe a pentagram is evil, satanic, etc. You'll find that many members of mainstream religions think no such thing. And you'll find that those who do believe pentagrams are satanic don't need a Walmart costume to confirm those beliefs.

Make your argument to Walmart and other stores that sell pentagrams with devil costumes. Write a letter, talk to the manager, etc. Heck, write a letter to the editor of your newspaper.

Remove your trade and commerce from the store that offends you. I haven't set foot in a Walmart in nearly a year, and my objections weren't religious in nature. Any magic-potential supplies I could buy at Walmart are available (and often cheaper) at my local craft and fabric stores.

[off topic] I bought a large, gaudy plastic pentagram necklace at a costume store last halloween. I thought it would lend itself to charcoal rubbings, etc. I was right. The pattern is bold and nicely raised. The rubbings are quite distinctive looking. [/off topic]

[Nova]

I don't know - I think people just inherently feel threatened by corporations as large as Walmart. Nevermind that it was essentially created and maintained (to this day) by a single family (hence being a family owned business). Nevermind that they had aid ready to go at the first WORD of a hurricane - they didn't even wait for the levees to break. Nevermind that they pay TEN dollars an hour around here, WITH BENEFITS. Nevermind that every friggin' Walmart employee I've met in person has been happy, and said they liked working there. Nevermind a thousand other positive things.

It's big, it's "faceless", and that makes it mean and anti-little-guy-minority-pagan. Even if other stores are carrying the costume, only Walmart is evil for it. Because they're Walmart. Plain and simple.

:fofftopic

Obviously we don't know the same Walmart employees...

Where I grew up the people I knew that worked at Walmart were paid so little they couldn't afford the health insurance offered. They advertise the jobs as a career choice but pay poverty wages. Walmart is anti-union. If people are making 10 now instead of 8 that's inflation not charity.

And all these saving are passed on directly to you, the consumer! :clapping:

Here's an interesting article from the labor research folks. There are alternatives. (Capitalist alternatives - not talking socialism)

http://www.laborresearch.org/print.php?id=391 (http://www.laborresearch.org/print.php?id=391)

[Malcolm]

You could always not wear a pentacle...its not like its the only pagan symbol.

In fact one could argue the main reason for wearing a pentacle IS that it is so easily recognizable. Of course there is the protection/whatever enchatment you put on it...but hell I could enchant a frickin rock and keep it in my pocket and it would do whatever the pentacle can.

If its a symbol to you then you have to realize its a symbol to everyone else as well. As such it is open for interpretation. Stopping a stupid halloween costume will never change this.

just my 2 cents

[Lynleigh]

MorningDove,

If you honestly have a fear of those things happening then why wear a pentacle at all? I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't have the right to wear one if that's what you want, but if wearing one has, for you, those consequenes then why do it. If you're really concerned for the safety and well being of your son, I think the choice would be obvious.

Just a general observation, but if you want to be "out" and "open" with your religion, then you need to be ready to accept the positive and negative things that come with that.

[Romani Vixen]

This tactfully sums up my opinion. :)


MorningDove,

If you honestly have a fear of those things happening then why wear a pentacle at all? I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't have the right to wear one if that's what you want, but if wearing one has, for you, those consequenes then why do it. If you're really concerned for the safety and well being of your son, I think the choice would be obvious.

Just a general observation, but if you want to be "out" and "open" with your religion, then you need to be ready to accept the positive and negative things that come with that.

[aluokaloo]

ok, maybe in your store, they don't hire pagans but in mine I've seen quite a few people with small pentagrams. It's Halloween its supposed to be a time for the kiddies, and for candy getting.

[aluokaloo]

One of my favorite Halloween costumes is my devil costume. I even wore it to work one year, when Halloween fell on a Friday.

Now, I work in IT for a Catholic hospital, (in a different building that the actual hospital,) and here I show up dressed all in red, with red makeup and lipstick, with the horns, tail, and pitchfork. Everyone in the department loved it - but I was asked by the CIO of the hospital to please remove the horns and tail, and to leave off the pitchfork if I was called on to do a service ticket in the hospital. Apparently he was worried that I would be walking through the halls, and someone might be coming to from the drugs or just wake up from a nap, and think they had died and gone to Hell!





Ah, good times.




:devil::alol:

[Sequoia]

I suppose my point, MorningDove030202, is that wiccans or pagans in general do not have a monopoly on pentacles. In fact, there are MANY more symbols that would have much more meaning to a "follower of the path" than a generic star inside a circle. Hell, I've seen this symbol in turn-of-the-century churches. Without resorting to fabricated symobolgy circa 1940-1950AD, tell me how a pentacle represents the universe uniquely to you, only you, and only Wiccans/Pagans/etc?

It's all over the place. It's in the Rock sub-culture, it's a Goth "thing", it's in children's drawings, even in cross-sections of some kinds of fruit - it's a VERY common shape! If it has significance to you for one reason, understand it has significance to others for ANOTHER reason, that is equally as valid.

Oh. One last thing, brought to mind by something you mentioned to me... You might think about the fact that not all those who post on this website are Pagan/Wiccan, nor are they Christian. Few people particularly care about "ancient wiccan trads" (considering that Wicca is not ancient, and having a "family trad"ition doesn't necessarily mean anything at all - my family has a "trad"ition of making star-and-moon-shaped cookies at Christmas. Wow. I'm a witch.)

The point of this thread, and the notable fact, is that "pentacle" does NOT equal "Wiccan/Pagan" in most people's minds, especially in the mainstream culture. The only "witches" mainstream media knows of are people from Bewitched, Charmed, and that aweful movie about the gothy high school girls with Super Powers. Few people know (or care) about a very very low-lying religion that is only in it's infancy, however important and beautiful that infancy is, and that it isn't even a blip on the radar of the general public. Nobody was attacking pagans with this costume... but I'm surprised I don't hear an outcry of "discrimination!" against poor Lucifer, being portreyed in such a disrespectful and cruel manner.

[MorningDove030202]

I also believe I shouldn't have to hide my faith. My compromise is that I try to educate people as much as possible and to speak out against misconceptions as much as posible too, such as the association that the pentacle has with "the devil". Hiding will never make these negative associations go away, and neither will concenting with my silence.
Dove


MorningDove,

If you honestly have a fear of those things happening then why wear a pentacle at all? I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't have the right to wear one if that's what you want, but if wearing one has, for you, those consequenes then why do it. If you're really concerned for the safety and well being of your son, I think the choice would be obvious.

Just a general observation, but if you want to be "out" and "open" with your religion, then you need to be ready to accept the positive and negative things that come with that.

[MorningDove030202]

Wow, more assuming..... first I never said I was part of an "ancient trad" and I've read the "Wicca for Beginners" link in my sig (among other books) which has a very nice accurate history of Wicca clearly illustrating that there are no ancient Wiccan trads, nor did any Wiccans die in the Burning Times.

I don't need your history lessons, please stay on topic.

Dove





Oh. One last thing, brought to mind by something you mentioned to me... You might think about the fact that not all those who post on this website are Pagan/Wiccan, nor are they Christian. Few people particularly care about "ancient wiccan trads" (considering that Wicca is not ancient, and having a "family trad"ition doesn't necessarily mean anything at all - my family has a "trad"ition of making star-and-moon-shaped cookies at Christmas. Wow. I'm a witch.)

[Aidron]

You know, this thread makes me want to go out, get that costume (and I have seen it, long before this thread was posted) and wear it year round just to annoy some of you haughty people who start waving your broomsticks about anytime anything is remotely touching upon your faith without absolute accuracy.

Frankly, I find pagans do more harm than any other group to themselves. Stop worrying about a costume, start worrying about your own bloody mistakes. If everyone did this, people would be a lot less prone to headaches. :rolleyes:

[MorningDove030202]

Ok, but doesn't the symbol of NeoPaganism being associated with the Christian symbol of ultimate evil bother you too? No one here will ever convince me that the pentacle isn't the most commonly worn symbol by NeoPagans.

Dove



Well, I would be a little upset if the devil was wearing a claughdah or a piece of knotwork. To me that would imply that someone out there thinks there's a direct connection between Irish culture and the Christian symbol of ultimate evil.

[MorningDove030202]

I wasn't comparing Wicca with actual real Satanism, I was comparing it to what the Christians think Satanism is aka "Devil Worship".
Dove


I understand how people may conscrew the meaning of a pentacle...but what does that have to do with comparing satanism to wicca? I'm still lost.

Unless you are thinking that if someone see's a star on a devil costume then they are going to automatically associate every star they see with the devil...which is stupid.

[Lynleigh]

I also believe I shouldn't have to hide my faith. My compromise is that I try to educate people as much as possible and to speak out against misconceptions as much as posible too, such as the association that the pentacle has with "the devil". Hiding will never make these negative associations go away, and neither will concenting with my silence.
Dove

Honestly, it seems unnecessarily antagonistic to me. It's like your wearing the pentacle and daring people to say something to you.

What is there about your faith that requires wearing a pentacle? Is wearing one an integral part of what you believe? If so, why is a piece of jewelry so important that not wearing one will be "hiding" your faith. Aren't there more important and significant ways of sharing your faith that would give people a better representation of what you believe?

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Oh my various gods. It's a stupid costume. And it's a stupid Wallmart. Get over it! Apparently pagans do not have better things to discuss? The pentacle apparently has many different conotations. And if someone who is a strict Christian believes it to be Satanic then you will not change the individuals mind, no matter how much you educate him. Come on, let Pagans be Pagans. Christians be Christians. And Satanists steal other peoples things and be Satanists. Seriously, I could care less if some Satanic guy inverted my precious Ankh and started using it in some sort of sacrificial rite. I have my own thoughts and beliefs and others will not change it. If you are worried about religious discrimination or something to that effect, there is plenty of it going on that is not in relation it a STUPID COSTUME. Move ON.

[IvyWitch]

Ok, but doesn't the symbol of NeoPaganism being associated with the Christian symbol of ultimate evil bother you too? No one here will ever convince me that the pentacle isn't the most commonly worn symbol by NeoPagans.
Dove

No, actually it doesn't. For the miniscule amount of people that will say "Hey look, it's a pentagram. That means Wiccans worship satan" (that haven't been saying it already it just doesn't matter. I pick my battles, and truely this isn't even worth raising a fist to.

[IvyWitch]

I wasn't comparing Wicca with actual real Satanism, I was comparing it to what the Christians think Satanism is aka "Devil Worship".
Dove

You know, Neo-Pagans aren't the ONLY group contemporary Christians think are worshipping the devil. We don'y have a monopoly on that either. According to fundamentalist belief if you're not worshipping Jesus you're worshipping satan even if you don't know it.

[IvyWitch]

Honestly, it seems unnecessarily antagonistic to me. It's like your wearing the pentacle and daring people to say something to you.

What is there about your faith that requires wearing a pentacle? Is wearing one an integral part of what you believe? If so, why is a piece of jewelry so important that not wearing one will be "hiding" your faith. Aren't there more important and significant ways of sharing your faith that would give people a better representation of what you believe?

_handclapp

[Akhkharu Asgard]

You know, Neo-Pagans aren't the ONLY group contemporary Christians think are worshipping the devil. We don'y have a monopoly on that either. According to fundamentalist belief if you're not worshipping Jesus you're worshipping satan even if you don't know it.

Thank you! And this is exactly why you are not going to "educate" or "win" anyone over.

[MorningDove030202]

Actualy it hasn't been antagonist at all. I don't mind if people ask me honest questions and some of my co workers have done so, and we are very respectful of each other's religion, and are prety good friends. I also run into alot of other pagans where I work, and if I wasn't wearing my pentacle they wouldn't know that I was one too. ( A lot means about 6 in 6 months, but that seams like alot more than at other jobs I've been in. I work at a Pet Hospital.) I try to be a positive example of a Wiccan, so that even if people arn't asking me questions, next time they see someone with a pentacle on, I hope they might think that nice pet nurse, rather that the devil costume.

No one has said anything bad to me, but once a new doctor was at my hosptial for a job interview and my back was turned to her as I was restraining a dog, and when I turned around to shake her hand, she saw my necklace, took a deep breath in, and took a huge step back from me. She was honestly scared of me. That's some people's gut reaction to a pentacle and I hope I can make a differnece so that one day no one will have to be in the closet and no one will feel the need to be afraid.

Dove


Honestly, it seems unnecessarily antagonistic to me. It's like your wearing the pentacle and daring people to say something to you.

What is there about your faith that requires wearing a pentacle? Is wearing one an integral part of what you believe? If so, why is a piece of jewelry so important that not wearing one will be "hiding" your faith. Aren't there more important and significant ways of sharing your faith that would give people a better representation of what you believe?

[Sequoia]

You know, I think mathematicians should claim discrimination. I mean, come on! All the bad rap over 666?! They're just innocent numbers, man! Don't be a hater! Leave the mathematicians alone!

Dove, if you're looking for a conversation piece, I'd reccomend a picture of your family. If it's a matter of faith, I sure hope that there's more to your faith than jewelry. Unless you worship gold, or metals, or whatever your pent is made of.

There are better battles to fight than a devil with a pentacle. But I guess we shouldn't worry about custody battles when there is a *gasp* costume with a *gasp* plastic geometric bauble.

Cut open an apple sometime. Wiccans don't have a monopoly on the pent, never have, and never will. Nor does it even matter. Obviously Christians didn't have a monopoly on the cross... two thousand years ago. Changing a perception of a symbol takes time and example.

And if the given example is a tantrum over a costume.... this may take a while.

[Theres]

isn't the greater concern here the patronising of WalMart?

[Xentor]

Admin mode

The MW Respect Rule says you folks have to play nice. I, on the other hand, get the responsibility to close threads that get out of hand. Don't force me to do that.

[Kaylara]

Oooo, you mean I can get a cheap pentacle from walmart? Bonus!

[BrigidMoon]

Oooo, you mean I can get a cheap pentacle from walmart? Bonus!

LOL That was kind of what I was thinking too :)

[MorningDove030202]

You know I just wanted to complain about something that I didn't think was fair to us NeoPagans. I thought this would be a safe place to vent my frustrations with society. I guess I was wrong.

Dove

[Aidron]

You know I just wanted to complain about something that I didn't think was fair to us NeoPagans. I thought this would be a safe place to vent my frustrations with society. I guess I was wrong.

Dove


If you think any place in the cosmos is safe, you have much more to worry about than some perceived offense on the part of Wal-Mart distributing a Halloween costume.

You vented, other people responded, this is what is known as open dialogue on a public forum. Honestly, you come across as way too sensitive. If an employer asked you to tuck your pentacle inside your shirt I sincerely imagine you would have an emotional crisis over it.

Harden your skin, realize it's only a costume. Halloween is all about mischief and there is no point in mischief if things suddenly become off limits. Poke fun at pagans, poke fun at Christians, poke fun at it all and prance around looking goofy.

Furthermore, the people who created the costume are obviously going by stereotypical imagery and no matter how hard people try, stereotypes will always exist, for good or for ill, so we might as well deal with it.

[SSanf]

Everything celtic IS automatically the property of the wiccan/pagan movement...I got the memo!

[IvyWitch]

You know I just wanted to complain about something that I didn't think was fair to us NeoPagans. I thought this would be a safe place to vent my frustrations with society. I guess I was wrong.

Dove

You're free to vent your frustration and the rest of us are free to agree or disagree with your opinion. Since when was MW ever a place where you can say something and expect everyone to just agree with you? That's the beauty of open dialoge with other human beings.

[Malcolm]

Are we still talking about this?

[Gwenhwyfar]

You know I just wanted to complain about something that I didn't think was fair to us NeoPagans. I thought this would be a safe place to vent my frustrations with society. I guess I was wrong.

Dove

sorry Dove, but not everyone can agree with you all time. Its a costume. People getting all offended over any little thing is getting really old with me. Everyone sueing over every little thing is getting old. There have been pregnant, evil, sexy ect nun costumes for as long as Iv been alive...and the costume usually comes with a cross...who cares. Iv seen christians wear it. Whooptie Doo.
Its not like their trying to force you to wear the devil costume. get over it.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I really think that people need to be less frigging reactionary. Screaming about a *costume* makes you look dumber than Phyllis Curott and Laurie Cabot COMBINED, and worrying that such a thing will cause people to discriminate you is utterly insane.
Again: Yes, I am a jerk.

[BlueMoon13]

Satanists steal other peoples things and be Satanists.
Ummm....I was under the impression we're supposed to respect EVERYONE's path here. :fpatricks

[Athena-Nadine]

You know, this thread makes me want to go out, get that costume (and I have seen it, long before this thread was posted) and wear it year round just to annoy some of you haughty people who start waving your broomsticks about anytime anything is remotely touching upon your faith without absolute accuracy.

Frankly, I find pagans do more harm than any other group to themselves. Stop worrying about a costume, start worrying about your own bloody mistakes. If everyone did this, people would be a lot less prone to headaches. :rolleyes:

*...laughs...* No kidding. Never mind all of the icons, symbols, and systems of other religions that have been coopted by many neopagan religions and twisted and changed until they no longer resemble what they once stood for (karma, anyone?). When it comes down to it, the pentagram is just one more copted symbol currently being used by neopagans. But disrespect, no matter how unitnentional, only seems to count if it's perceived that it's one of the "Big Three" doing ot to pagans. Pagans disrespecting other pagan religions with the spreading of their misinformation and cavalier attitudes is perfectly acceptable. :rolleyes:

[Chibi-Fallon]

Oooo, you mean I can get a cheap pentacle from walmart?

Yes, but I believe you have to give yourself a mullet and worship the gods of white trash. :T

[Athena-Nadine]

Yes, but I believe you have to give yourself a mullet and worship the gods of white trash. :T

:rollingla

[MorningDove030202]

Ya, but sexy nun cosumes arn't causing nuns to be discriminated against.
Dove


sorry Dove, but not everyone can agree with you all time. Its a costume. People getting all offended over any little thing is getting really old with me. Everyone sueing over every little thing is getting old. There have been pregnant, evil, sexy ect nun costumes for as long as Iv been alive...and the costume usually comes with a cross...who cares. Iv seen christians wear it. Whooptie Doo.
Its not like their trying to force you to wear the devil costume. get over it.

[Aidron]

*...laughs...* No kidding. Never mind all of the icons, symbols, and systems of other religions that have been coopted by many neopagan religions and twisted and changed until they no longer resemble what they once stood for (karma, anyone?). When it comes down to it, the pentagram is just one more copted symbol currently being used by neopagans. But disrespect, no matter how unitnentional, only seems to count if it's perceived that it's one of the "Big Three" doing ot to pagans. Pagans disrespecting other pagan religions with the spreading of their misinformation and cavalier attitudes is perfectly acceptable. :rolleyes:


Ha! Excellent point. If Wal-Mart steals our almighty precious pentagram for a devil costume, they're so naughty they need a spanking. If Wiccans steal karma from Hinduism, the Hindus it's completely acceptable. :lol:


Frankly, why aren't more people worrying about sincere disrespect instead of trashy costumes? I find it highly disrespectful every time I read "What Witches Believe" and it includes things about "God/dess is two facets of a source deity". Excuse me, but this whole "I was raised Christian and can't see past monotheism and am going to shove it upon you and dare you to call yourself a witch." thing is far more disrespectful than a costume that at least makes me laugh. [glares.. at no one in particular]

[Aidron]

Ya, but sexy nun cosumes arn't causing nuns to be discriminated against.
Dove


Discrimination is a part of life. The cosmos contain an intricate balance, for acceptance to exist discrimination must exist. Why do people keep on whining about this? If you don't want discrimination, why not protest about acceptance existing as well, because you can't have one without the other.

Honestly, doesn't anyone ever see the wisdom in Buddhism, that pain and suffering help us to grow. I may not be a Buddhist, but I can certainly see the sensibility of such. :rolleyes:

[Mithrea]

Well . . . I posted here last night but the post didn't go through.

I have seen the costume. With the exception of Aidron, most of you haven't seen it. It was quite jarring. It's not the devil mask that someone posted. All it is is a pair of horns, some teeth and a by Goddess HUGE pentacle that no one would miss. It's not about people appropiating a religious symbol or everything celtic being wiccan or not. It's about the fact that whoever made the thing took great care to make sure and appropriate a piece of artwork specific to the neopagan movement to label us as devils. It's not just any old pentacle. Peter Stone should at least be notified, if he hasn't already. Let his lawyers take care of it if it needs to be.

Yes this sort of thing happens all the time, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it as adults without implying some of us for stupid for caring about it.

[IvyWitch]

Somehow I seriously doubt that the costume designers said "Hey, let's go look at some wiccan jewelry so we can put one with our devil costume! Then everyone will know that those Pagans are eeeeeevil."

:eyebrow:

[Mithrea]

Somehow I seriously doubt that the costume designers said "Hey, let's go look at some wiccan jewelry so we can put one with our devil costume! Then everyone will know that those Pagans are eeeeeevil."

:eyebrow:

I'm sure you do. Even if it wasn't that conscious, I believe that's what happened. We can disagree on that. :)

[Aidron]

Well . . . I posted here last night but the post didn't go through.

I have seen the costume. With the exception of Aidron, most of you haven't seen it. It was quite jarring. It's not the devil mask that someone posted. All it is is a pair of horns, some teeth and a by Goddess HUGE pentacle that no one would miss. It's not about people appropiating a religious symbol or everything celtic being wiccan or not. It's about the fact that whoever made the thing took great care to make sure and appropriate a piece of artwork specific to the neopagan movement to label us as devils. It's not just any old pentacle. Peter Stone should at least be notified, if he hasn't already. Let his lawyers take care of it if it needs to be.

Yes this sort of thing happens all the time, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it as adults without implying some of us for stupid for caring about it.


Excuse me? Neo-pagans own the pentagram now? :eyebrow:

The pentagram dates back at least as far as the Hellenistic area and perhaps even farther, I hardly think that this neo-pagan revival could be the only ones targeted, if in fact the costume, as you seem to imply to some degree, was designed to make a mockery out of the faith of others.

Face it, anyone who isn't Christian is a naughty devil worshipping heathen. It has nothing to do with the pentagram of Pagans, it has everything to do with Christianity and its sister religions being that their path is the truth path, join or you are ostracisized.

[Autumn Sidhe]

I will probably gain an unpopular vote here, but then, i'm not big on whether people like me or not...

I agree with Dove. I took offense as well, but she happened to be the one that brought the topic up before I did.

I guess we should all just agree to disagree. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and mine just happens to be that i'm rather offended by a company slapping on a gigantic pentacle on a devil costume. Sadly, alot of people that are not Pagan DO feel that the pentacle is a sign of devil worship. I happen to wear a rather small pentacle necklace and have had both nice and not so nice comments made to me. However, I don't wear it for shock value or anything like that, I wear it because I feel "safe" in a sense while wearing it. I don't take it off at all, and it's a personal thing for me. Not for others to look at and wonder what it means. I surely don't hide it but I don't flash it around either. It is a conversation piece regardless. Some people ask me what it means, others ignore it... But generally, when I do run into a Christian that see's it and asks about it, most of the time they ask if I'm a "devil worshipper". Once I explain what it means to me, they usually seem okay with it and drop the subject.

[The Devil]

I saw a devil costume kit at walmart today that realy makes me angry. The kit had the horns and teeth, but not any clothing. It also contained a huge pentacle about 4 inches across

Well of course the pentacle is large. The costume doesn't come with any clothes... all those little devils need to cover their naughty bits with something .

[Sequoia]

If you think any place in the cosmos is safe, you have much more to worry about than some perceived offense on the part of Wal-Mart distributing a Halloween costume.
:uhuh:

See, the big point that you're missing, is that Pagans/Wiccans do NOT own the pentacle. If you asked a random person on the street, chances are they think that a pentacle is "satanic", not "wiccan." It never even entered their mind that it could represent another religion, let alone an underground earth-based grouping of religions.

Like I said, cut open an apple. Look at some turn-of-the-century churches. Study ancient artwork. Unless you surveyed some very progressive folks, or a select group of pagans, you are not likely to get many responses of "Oh, that's a wiccan/pagan symbol."

Walmart is not an evil conspiracy to oppress Pagans Everywhere. :2G:

[demonique]

Dove - I'd just like to say... man, people overreacting here to you. I'm a bit shocked by the viciousness in some of their replies!

I don't necessarily agree with you - I don't personally find a Halloween devil costume with a pentacle on it overly offensive, or dangerous (it *is* just a costume - I think people's stereotypes about paganism go deeper than a few thousand people seeing the pentacle on a Halloween costume, though I do say that I, too, find it a bit frustrating that our religious views are too often aligned with selling your soul to the devil... I just don't think a Halloween costume is much to get upset over...) But I digress. Agreement with you or not, I understand you're frustration and worry over your son... and I certainly think you've been bashed on the head here a little hard for your opinion.

Come on people... it's nothing to attack her over, even if you think she's making too big a deal out of it. Can't you say so *without* the nasty comments?

[Guinivere]

The Walmart where I live is very limited in the costume department. All the costumes it does have are for children only, and too small for adults to wear. I did find a witch hat there last year that was pretty cheap. I wore one of the dresses I own along with the hat and a cape I found at the local Fred Meyer store. I always enjoy going to Fred Meyer this time of year because they have 10 aisles of halloween stuff, as opposed to Walmart's display that takes up half an aisle, and one display case in the walkway of customers.

The fact that they are associating the pentacle with such a costume is just wrong. They need to get their facts straight. And the fact that they fire people for being Pagan is not only wrong, but discrimination.

This year I have a real cape with a hood to wear that I bought from Pyramid Collection. It should be cozier than the flimsy, velveteen one I wore last year.

[MorningDove030202]

Wiccans might share the pentacle with others, but you can't say it isn't a Wiccan/NeoPagan symbol as well as a symbol for other faiths. And just because it's inside an apple doesn't mean or prove anything.
Dove


:uhuh:

See, the big point that you're missing, is that Pagans/Wiccans do NOT own the pentacle. If you asked a random person on the street, chances are they think that a pentacle is "satanic", not "wiccan." It never even entered their mind that it could represent another religion, let alone an underground earth-based grouping of religions.

Like I said, cut open an apple. Look at some turn-of-the-century churches. Study ancient artwork. Unless you surveyed some very progressive folks, or a select group of pagans, you are not likely to get many responses of "Oh, that's a wiccan/pagan symbol."

Walmart is not an evil conspiracy to oppress Pagans Everywhere. :2G:

[MorningDove030202]

I also doubt that is was a concious decision to smear the NeoPagan community. It was probably chosen out of ignorance. That doesn't mean it isn't doing harm to the NeoPagan community and I'm not the type to concent with my silence.

Dove




Somehow I seriously doubt that the costume designers said "Hey, let's go look at some wiccan jewelry so we can put one with our devil costume! Then everyone will know that those Pagans are eeeeeevil."

:eyebrow:

[MorningDove030202]

Walmart is not an evil conspiracy to oppress Pagans Everywhere. :2G:

I never said it was. Again with the assuming...... Will you ever get your foot out of your mouth?

Dove

[IvyWitch]

I also doubt that is was a concious decision to smear the NeoPagan community. It was probably chosen out of ignorance. That doesn't mean it isn't doing harm to the NeoPagan community and I'm not the type to concent with my silence.

Dove


For the amount of people who are going to make the connection between a halloween costume and Wicca (and have it be a new revelation), it isn't going to make a difference.

[SS'sBaby]

Not that there is a whole lot I can do about it, but I saw a devil costume kit at walmart today that realy makes me angry. The kit had the horns and teeth, but not any clothing. It also contained a huge pentacle about 4 inches across that looks alot like my Peter Stone Pentacle.

Well I'm kind of let down......I'd like to be Satan this Halloween....but if that's all that comes with the costume then :razz: .

No tail or flaming red suit or goatee & moustache...looking all black and villainous and just begging to have the ends tugged and twisted.

I mean really....if they are going to run with a stereotype they should RUN with it.
I think if your going to have bad taste you should havvvvvvvveeeeeeeee BAD TASTE. :alol:


For the amount of people who are going to make the connection between a halloween costume and Wicca (and have it be a new revelation), it isn't going to make a difference.

:yourock:

[~Macha~]

wouldn't something like this represent the wiccan religion just as well as a pentagram? http://www.silverenchantments.com/images/Necklaces/crescent-moon_lunar-goddess_hearts_w-moonstone.jpg

[Theres]

Walmart is not an evil conspiracy to oppress Pagans Everywhere. :2G:
no, of course not. WalMart is an evil conspiracy to oppress everyone everywhere!

it seems to me that much of this oversensitivity comes from the fact that people who have enlightened themselves in regard to 'occult' teachings and paths automatically assume that everyone else is equally aware. they are not, not should they be.
believe it or not there are people to whom neoPaganism means nothing... it hasn't even entered their ken. and since they have no idea we even exist, how sensitive to you expect them to be?
this is more in the line of mass ignorance than some corporate plot to denounce Paganism.

[Athena-Nadine]

I also doubt that is was a concious decision to smear the NeoPagan community. It was probably chosen out of ignorance. That doesn't mean it isn't doing harm to the NeoPagan community and I'm not the type to concent with my silence.

Dove

It probably was. That it bothers you is fine, and I understand that. But again, what about all the symbols and practices taken by the various neopagan religion and twisted and changed until they are completely unrecognizeable? When some pagan or another is corrected about it, everyone gets up in arms and screams that neopagans should be able to do whatever they want when so many of the coopted and changed practices and information is so clearly harmful to other pagan religions (the Reconstructionist community, for example). I want to know why is this different? Why is it wrong when it's Christians or Jews or Muslims practicing harmful ignorance but perfectly fine when many neopagans do so? Why is it wrong for Christians to spread misinformation about pagans but acceptable for pagans to do it to each other?

[Malcolm]

Because christians are icky....

[Gwenhwyfar]

Dove - I'd just like to say... man, people overreacting here to you. I'm a bit shocked by the viciousness in some of their replies! ......

.....Come on people... it's nothing to attack her over, even if you think she's making too big a deal out of it. Can't you say so *without* the nasty comments?

No ones attacking her. We are conversing. I think its what we're supposed to do here in MW. It may look like an attack to you because not so many people agree with Dove this time around. Viciousness?? lol, gimme a break. Saying somthing like "your opinion makes me want to rip off your head and sh*t down your neck"...now that would be vicious.

[Theres]

I want to know why is this different? Why is it wrong when it's Christians or Jews or Muslims practicing harmful ignorance but perfectly fine when many neopagans do so? Why is it wrong for Christians to spread misinformation about pagans but acceptable for pagans to do it to each other?

me too! i want to know why when a Christian says something (usually out of ignorance) it's part of a worldwide anti-Pagan agenda, but when Kevin Carolan opens his ridiculous yap he needs to be protected from 'persecution'.

it has to work both ways people.

[DragonsChest]

Because christians are icky....

Am not so! :falloffch

[Hærfest Leah]

Why does it have to become some kind of power struggle?

I get what your saying here but underneath that's exactly what it is. Them struggling to stamp us out and us struggling to be heard.

[BlueMoon13]

Dove - I'd just like to say... man, people overreacting here to you. I'm a bit shocked by the viciousness in some of their replies!.........

Come on people... it's nothing to attack her over, even if you think she's making too big a deal out of it. Can't you say so *without* the nasty comments?
I concur. Morning Dove's original post asked people for the opinions of people who had actually SEEN the costume, and how they felt it compared with the Peter Stone pentacle she provided a photo of. No where did she ask whether anyone felt it was an inappropriate use of the pentacle in general, but whether or not it was a copyright infringement of that particular artist's design. How it turned into a "get over it" feeding frenzy, I don't know.

Since it DID turn that direction, let me say that things like this (the pentacle as part of the devil costume) provide those of us who wear pentacles with opportunities to educate the ignorant on what it means to us, as individual pagans. While it's not always convenient to explain what it means, I feel that if we wear it and someone asks, we should explain. If the explanation is met with belligerence,f'em. If we wear our pentacles in an obvious fashion,that's the risk we take.

[BlueMoon13]

Because christians are icky....
You know, I hope that was said as a kind of joke, in a sarcastic fashion that does'nt translate well into the written word.

Funny, yesterday it was ok say that Satanists are thieves, today it's ok to say that Christians are "icky". How long would this go unnoticed if the same things were said about Dianics,Druids, or Kemetics? Admin,DO we respect all paths or not?

[Gypsy flower]

you are kidding right!!! OMGS

[Malcolm]

Yes, that was a joke.

If I really wanted to insult christianity, which I don't, I would have used more words.

That my friends was humor..."icky" its just a funny word.

[Lynleigh]

Them struggling to stamp us out

Stamp us out? By using a cheap halloween costume? Isn't that a little extreme?

Honestly, I can't imagine any non-pagan, Christian or otherwise sitting around plotting ways to destroy pagans.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I imagine a pentagram on a devil costume would be more an inversion of a Christian symbol as opposed to an inversion of a 'pagan' one. How the pentacle even got associated with paganism is utterly beyond me as until recently it was used primarily in Judeo-Christian magical symbolism. If you were to associate it with Satan, it makes more sense to see it as a perversion of the pentagram as a symbol of Christ's Wounds or (as Hildegarde von Bingen viewed it) the symbol of God - for the pentagram have five members, like a person, and God made people in Him image.
There are more important things to get worried about that a godsdamned costume. For God's sakes, if you need to go on a self-righteous rant over being persecuted, at least do it over something that is actually discriminatory. To be blunt, brutal, and cruelly truthful as I see it, complaining about a costume makes you look stupid and reactionary.
And yes, I am a jerk, have, do, and will continue to be self-righteous, and am rude.

[BlueMoon13]

Yes, that was a joke.

If I really wanted to insult christianity, which I don't, I would have used more words.

That my friends was humor..."icky" its just a funny word.
Thought so :hugz: . Also, "icky" is a great "word". If it's not a real word already,it should be.

[Malcolm]

Hey Silver.

You sure your not thinking of the star of david or solomons star? I don't think I ever saw the pentacle used as a christian symbol, but I suppose its possible. Have any links? This is interesting, I'd like to know more.

[DragonsChest]

Yes, that was a joke.

If I really wanted to insult christianity, which I don't, I would have used more words.

That my friends was humor..."icky" its just a funny word.


Well, I chose to view it as humerous, even though you didn't use a smiley, or type LOL or anything to indicate that your comment wasn't meant to be taken as serious.

But... typed the way it was, and without any indicators of your "intent", I honestly could have taken that as a slam of disrespect for my path.

Glad you didn't mean it that way! :kooky:

[Jenne]

The heart of the matter is respect--which is appropo since, this being an "online pagan community AND spiritual sanctuary," we demand RESPECT from all who come here.

That costume, for whatever reason (convention, sign of the times, the holiday it's meant to celebrate, vast right-wing conspiracy, a big huge mistake on the costume designer's part--or not!), is not respectful. And, as such, carries a message for those paying attention to it.

As does the naughty nun. I think many Catholics, though recognizing it as 1) just a stupid WalMart costume 2) it's indicative of the holiday, not any anti-Catholic sentiment (or maybe it is?) or 3) something to just ignore and move on, would find the nun costume disrespectful. In fact, impersonating a priest OR a nun is tacitly in poor taste and pretty heinous to those who are deeply Catholicly religious.

Be that as it may, part of the free speech movement here is that you can express your opinion--on a religion, on a political movement, on a culture, that is humorous, disrespectful and even untruthful, if you want. You can be bigoted still in this country. On this forum, not so much. But often costume-makers take that humorous fineline and pass it. Past and current cartoony US president costumes are popular for just such a reason.

WalMart has every right to sell that costume--unless of course that pent they are using is against copyright laws--and anyone who sees it has a right to be upset about it. I do think it's in poor taste and somewhat detrimental to the education of the general masses about Paganism what the pentagram can symbolize for those who use it as something other than a symbol of evil. It does little to break down that stereotype the devil costume portrays, but on the other hand, Theres's point about the readability of the message is a good one. Not many who see the pentagram will note it to any certain degree. BUT, the reinforcement that it's the devil's symbol, as portrayed by the costume, and therefore a symbol of EEEVILLL is not really debatable, imho. Whether or not this was done for this purpose, well, I could not assume such a thing.

Anyway, I neither take the stance of "how dare they!" or "get the hell over yourself already" that's been shown here in this thread so far. I think, instead, the message for me is, do your level best to represent your religion for what it truly is. If I wear a pentagram and people see me with it, I should be conducting myself as I want others to see a Pagan, therefore living as an example that can more easily break apart the stereotype of evil and devils and demons that is popularly associated with the symbol itself.

[Darkdale]

Anyway, I neither take the stance of "how dare they!" or "get the hell over yourself already" that's been shown here in this thread so far. I think, instead, the message for me is, do your level best to represent your religion for what it truly is. If I wear a pentagram and people see me with it, I should be conducting myself as I want others to see a Pagan, therefore living as an example that can more easily break apart the stereotype of evil and devils and demons that is popularly associated with the symbol itself.

I can't be sure, but I think the number of good posts are increasing around here lately. :) Excellent post and point of view.

[BlueMoon13]

you are kidding right!!! OMGS
:fofftopic
No, I'm not.

What Malcolm said was a joke that did'nt translate well, which is what I thought, no biggie. However,if it's OK for me to get a public dressing down for making a JOKE about Dianics, should'nt something be said about Satanists being called thieves? As far as I'm aware of, there are no more Satanic thieves than there are thieves of any other pagan path.

[mol]

And yes, I am a jerk, have, do, and will continue to be self-righteous, and am rude.

ADMIN MODE

Then your stay here might be short-lived. While it is not against the rules to be rude, per se..it does actually piss me off, which means if you do break a rule at some point I probably wont think twice about banning you.

Sorry to be so blunt, rude, and self-righteous.

[stella01904]

MM ~ Twas ever thus. WalMart won't carry pentacles in their jewelry department. Maybe it's not a big conspiracy and I'm not going to go all Dale Gribble on anyone but I do get the message. F- you too, WalMart.
BB, Stella

[BlueMoon13]

Hey Silver.

You sure your not thinking of the star of david or solomons star? I don't think I ever saw the pentacle used as a christian symbol, but I suppose its possible. Have any links? This is interesting, I'd like to know more.
I did see a post elsewhere that showed a church,in Germany I think, whose wrought iron fence had a whole line of pentacles at the tops of the bars.....I'll try to find the link _vb_

[RainInanna]

I googled "Peter Stone" pentacle in an effort to ascertain what the pentacle in this devil costume might look like. However, it appears that Peter Stone is a very prolific designer - there are dozens of pentacles attributed to him. Could someone who has seen the costume kindly point out the pentacle they are referring to?

You can google as well, or perhaps it is at his own site here (http://www.peterstone.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=peterstone&Category_Code=_Pentacles)?

[BlueMoon13]

....... If I wear a pentagram and people see me with it, I should be conducting myself as I want others to see a Pagan, therefore living as an example that can more easily break apart the stereotype of evil and devils and demons that is popularly associated with the symbol itself.
Tip o'the pointed chapeau to you! It goes to the old saw of making lemonade out of lemons,IMO. Not that I'm comparing a pentacle to a lemon,of course, but you all know what I mean.....the Halloween season is ripe with opportunities to show the general public what witches are like.

[DragonsChest]

:fofftopic
No, I'm not.

What Malcolm said was a joke that did'nt translate well, which is what I thought, no biggie. However,if it's OK for me to get a public dressing down for making a JOKE about Dianics, should'nt something be said about Satanists being called thieves? As far as I'm aware of, there are no more Satanic thieves than there are thieves of any other pagan path.


I agree with you! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The rules apply to all, or to none. Here's a green cookie to help ya!

[RainInanna]

I found the link to Christianity interesting, and dug these up.

"Early Christians attributed the pentagram to the Five Wounds of Christ and from then until medieval times, it was a lesser-used Christian symbol. It is sometimes found in church architecture. There is a very beautiful form of a pentagram in one of the windows of Exeter Cathedral. Before the time of the Inquisition and the burning times, there were no 'evil' associations to the pentagram. Rather its form implied Truth, religious mysticism and the work of The Creator."

This from a long, detailed article on many, many meanings and uses of the pentacle in various cultures and religions (http://www.echoedvoices.org/Aug2001/AugHisPen.html).

"In Christian times:
The five points of the pentagram have been interpreted as representing the five wounds of Christ (2 wrist, 2 ankle and 1 side).
The Roman Emperor Constantine used the pentagram in his seal and amulet.
It has been referred to as the Star of Bethlehem
It was used to symbolize the star which allegedly led three Zoroastrian astrologers to the baby Jesus; it was called the Three Kings' star.
The English warrior Sir Gawain, a nephew of King Arthur, adopted the pentagram as his personal symbol and placed it on his shield. It appeared in gold on a red background. The five points symbolized "the five knightly virtues - generosity, courtesy, chastity, chivalry and piety."
Tarot cards originally had a suit of coins or discs. These were changed in the 19th century to pentacles when the Tarot became associated with the Kabbalah. They eventually became the suit of diamonds in modern playing cards.
It has been widely used by past Christians as a protective amulet.
During the burning times when the Christian church burned alive hundreds of thousands of innocent people, the meaning of the pentagram changed. It began to symbolize a goat's head or the devil in the form of Baphomet. "The folk-symbol of security - for the first time in history - was equated with evil and was called the Witch's Foot."

From here (http://www.satanic-kindred.org/pentahistory.htm).

[Aidron]

MM ~ Twas ever thus. WalMart won't carry pentacles in their jewelry department. Maybe it's not a big conspiracy and I'm not going to go all Dale Gribble on anyone but I do get the message. F- you too, WalMart.
BB, Stella


Yeah, neither do most stores that offer a jewelry section. it's about supply and demand, not trying to stick it to the poor lil' pagans. :rolleyes:

[ravenscape]

Hey Silver.

You sure your not thinking of the star of david or solomons star? I don't think I ever saw the pentacle used as a christian symbol, but I suppose its possible. Have any links? This is interesting, I'd like to know more.

The five pointed star, with or without a surrounding circle, was an early Christian symbol for the five wounds of the crucifixion.

ETA: I see others have replied with the same info in greater detail. :fpraiseyo

[Aidron]

wouldn't something like this represent the wiccan religion just as well as a pentagram? http://www.silverenchantments.com/images/Necklaces/crescent-moon_lunar-goddess_hearts_w-moonstone.jpg


Honestly? Aside from Dianic Wicca, I can't see how. Wicca isn't a goddess religion and all these fancy moons and semi-precious stones have nothing to do with the heart of Wicca. [shrugs]

[Malcolm]

It is pretty though.

edit: thanks for the links.

[Aidron]

:fofftopic
No, I'm not.

What Malcolm said was a joke that did'nt translate well, which is what I thought, no biggie. However,if it's OK for me to get a public dressing down for making a JOKE about Dianics, should'nt something be said about Satanists being called thieves? As far as I'm aware of, there are no more Satanic thieves than there are thieves of any other pagan path.


Last time I checked most neo-pagans were thieves. :eyebrow:

[BlueMoon13]

Fascinating,is'nt it? _happydanc The one I remember most from childhood was the dogwood tree having 5 petals on its flowers (representing the 5 wounds) as either A.)its eternal punishment for its wood being used for the cross or B.) its eternal apology for its wood being used for the cross. Gran always emphasized option B. Does that strike anyone else as being extremely pagan in nature, a tree apologizing for something?

[BlueMoon13]

Last time I checked most neo-pagans were thieves. :eyebrow:
Really? Than perhaps we all suck and the last one out should sweep the floor and turn off the lights on the way out :cheers: .

[ravenscape]

Last time I checked most neo-pagans were thieves. :eyebrow:

SHHH!

"Synthesists"! Sounds ever so much nicer than "thieves". :floating:

[Lynleigh]

The heart of the matter is respect--which is appropo since, this being an "online pagan community AND spiritual sanctuary," we demand RESPECT from all who come here.

While admittedly I haven't been here all that long, I get the feeling sometimes that respect gets confused with agreement.


That costume, for whatever reason (convention, sign of the times, the holiday it's meant to celebrate, vast right-wing conspiracy, a big huge mistake on the costume designer's part--or not!), is not respectful. And, as such, carries a message for those paying attention to it.

I don't think the costume is disrespectful, it's meant for a secular commericalized holiday, and people are reading too much in to it. Look at all of the professions that have costumes, like the dentist or the doctor. How should they feel when people drees up as the homicidal version? Or what about people who dress up as mental patients, how should they feel? Where does it end?

This kind of thing could go on and on, the only thing it really does is create some kind of persecution complex.

[Malcolm]

No way.

I think we should all stay here and argue about things that don't really matter...after all what the hell else am I supposed to do on a friday at work?

[Lynleigh]

No way.

I think we should all stay here and argue about things that don't really matter...after all what the hell else am I supposed to do on a friday at work?

lol, I'm sure we all have other things we should be doing. Like me for example, I really, really should be writing an essay for history.

[stella01904]

Honestly? Aside from Dianic Wicca, I can't see how. Wicca isn't a goddess religion and all these fancy moons and semi-precious stones have nothing to do with the heart of Wicca. [shrugs]MM ~ It's a God and Goddess religion and the moons relate to the Goddess. People just like to wear more Goddess jewelry. Maybe kind of like you see "Mom" on a lot more tattoos than "Dad". (shrugs).
And yes, the pentagram did, at one time, represent the five wounds of Christ, I've read that. And I think as far as anyone knows, it came from Pythagoras. Whatever - it's ours now. ;) BB, Stella

[ravenscape]

Whatever - it's ours now. ;) BB, Stella

Ours, but not ours alone. :D

[IvyWitch]

Ours, but not ours alone. :D

Exactly. Just because it happens to be the most commonly used symbol doesn't mean we automatically get exclusive rights to it.

[Silvan]

Walmart is not an evil conspiracy to oppress Pagans Everywhere. :2G:Nope, it's an evil conspiracy to be the only retailer left standing, and to pump up sales until they finally reach that coveted $1,000,000,000,000 in sales. I'm sure nobody at Wal-Mart HQ cares a flying flip about Paganism, Christianity, or anything else for one second unless it impacts sales one way or the other. (I'm not pulling that number out of thin air either. They really are actually getting close to pulling in a trillion dollars in a single year. One. Trillion. Dollars.)

[Aidron]

MM ~ It's a God and Goddess religion and the moons relate to the Goddess. People just like to wear more Goddess jewelry. Maybe kind of like you see "Mom" on a lot more tattoos than "Dad". (shrugs).
And yes, the pentagram did, at one time, represent the five wounds of Christ, I've read that. And I think as far as anyone knows, it came from Pythagoras. Whatever - it's ours now. ;) BB, Stella


Your audacity is almost sickening, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you are merely jesting. This "Whatever, it's ours now." attitude is disturbing. That is precisely how all these eclectic neo-pagans are causing problems. They absorb what they want and claim it is their own. Karma doesn't belong to Wicca. Neither does the pentagram. They are incorporated into it, but the rights of exclusivity do not exist for the pentagram and the rights of exclusivity belong to Hinduism. Plain and simple.

And yes, it is a religion of a god and goddess, try telling that to all the Wiccans out there who are monotheists ("All gods are part of one divine being!"). But a moon and a semi-precious stone has nothing inherently to do with religion, nor does the moon itself even have to relate to a goddess.

As it stands, it's not a Wiccan necklace. It's a beautiful necklace that one could see occult significance in.

[MorningDove030202]

Honestly? Aside from Dianic Wicca, I can't see how. Wicca isn't a goddess religion and all these fancy moons and semi-precious stones have nothing to do with the heart of Wicca. [shrugs]

There is such a thing as "Generic Goddess Spirituality" which can be monotheist, and is sometimes not realy pagan, so I would agree that this necklace would be ambiguous as to weither someone was a fellow Wiccan or not. It does say "Goddess Worshiper" at the most.

Dove

[Theres]

This "Whatever, it's ours now." attitude is disturbing. That is precisely how all these eclectic neo-pagans are causing problems. They absorb what they want and claim it is their own.
can't the same be said of tattooing or piercing? how about drum circles?

[BrigidMoon]

No way.

I think we should all stay here and argue about things that don't really matter...after all what the hell else am I supposed to do on a friday at work?


:hehehehe:

[stella01904]

Karma doesn't belong to Wicca. MM ~ The word itself is from Hinduism and we don't see karma in a punishment sense ("you were greedy so you will be reborn as a bloodsucking mosquito!") but Witches do tend to believe that "like attracts like" and the word "karma" would apply to that.
Neither does the pentagram. They are incorporated into it, but the rights of exclusivity do not exist for the pentagram and the rights of exclusivity belong to Hinduism. Plain and simple. I didn't say "rights of exclusivity". I meant as a tag, something you see hanging around a persons neck that gives you an idea of their religious beliefs. Like a saint, cross, star of David, etc.

And yes, it is a religion of a god and goddess, try telling that to all the Wiccans out there who are monotheists ("All gods are part of one divine being!"). In a way they are. Diana, after all, divided herself into the light and the dark, the male and the female. I personally prefer working with the polarities to working with the beyond-thought source of the polarities. But to each his own. http://tinyurl.com/u27m (http://tinyurl.com/u27m)

But a moon and a semi-precious stone has nothing inherently to do with religion, nor does the moon itself even have to relate to a goddess.It doesn't have to, in a few cultures the moon is a male energy. But many of us work with a very lunar Triple Goddess.

As it stands, it's not a Wiccan necklace. It's a beautiful necklace that one could see occult significance in.
It's not exclusively Celtic Wiccan, it would be equally appropriate for anyone working with a lunar Goddess.
BB,Stella

[Aidron]

can't the same be said of tattooing or piercing? how about drum circles?


It could be said. Of course, I don't know anyone who lays claim to those as theirs and theirs alone. Do you happen to?

[Theres]

no, i doubt it.
but the point was about the appropriation of customs from other paths, was it not? and much of what i see regarding these particular practices smacks of virtually cultureless westerners trying desparately for some sort of tribal connection that is not theirs by birthright.

[Aidron]

MM ~ The word itself is from Hinduism and we don't see karma in a punishment sense ("you were greedy so you will be reborn as a bloodsucking mosquito!") but Witches do tend to believe that "like attracts like" and the word "karma" would apply to that. I didn't say "rights of exclusivity". I meant as a tag, something you see hanging around a persons neck that gives you an idea of their religious beliefs. Like a saint, cross, star of David, etc. In a way they are. Diana, after all, divided herself into the light and the dark, the male and the female. I personally prefer working with the polarities to working with the beyond-thought source of the polarities. But to each his own. http://tinyurl.com/u27m (http://tinyurl.com/u27m)
It doesn't have to, in a few cultures the moon is a male energy. But many of us work with a very lunar Triple Goddess.
It's not exclusively Celtic Wiccan, it would be equally appropriate for anyone working with a lunar Goddess.
BB,Stella


Hmm... your entire post is all jumbled together, and I don't have the patience to pick it all apart for my quoting, so I hope you will be able to tell which points I am referring to.

Many occult practitioners (not just witches) believe like attracts like because it does, but things can also be attracted to one another through negative attraction, i.e. merging together for the sake of harmony. Yet so few use negative attraction in magical application, thus they see all things from a mindset of positive attraction.

Not necessarily (the pentagram reference). You may see me wearing one, but that does not give you any idea of my beliefs. Let us take Deb (from the forums) for example, she believes three points represent the triple goddess and two points represent the horned god, not the elements. I do not view it as such, because I do not believe in the new age triple goddess or any horned god as it is referred to in this generic context. What it does is the pentagram gives you assumptions about my beliefs or practices, not necessarily any true idea of what they are.

As to the gods, that's your belief and interpretation, so no, in a way they aren't unless that way is in reference to your way and your ideals.

Many work with a lunar triple goddess? Very well, I'd ask for a show of hands, but that would derail the thread. I certainly don't know any pagans who do off the top of my head (other than Deb). Regardless moon symbology and semi-precious stones still have nothing inherently to do with any religion, and this is different than the crescent moon one might see for Islam. This is simply a few lunar crescents tied into a pendant, what one sees is entirely subjective, not concrete representation of any faith.

Celtic Wiccan? :eyebrow: It's not an exclusively Wiccan necklace of any variety at all. Wicca, last time I checked, actually had no concrete symbol to showcase its faith (many don't even care for the pentagram as it stands, so that cannot be used as a definitive symbol of representation).

The necklace is fine for representing an affinity for lunar forces, the moon simply as the moon or a lunar deity, but that interpretation is again subjective. It's simply a pretty necklace that could be looked upon in many ways, but it doesn't inherently reflect any religious affiliation.

[Theres]

Many work with a lunar triple goddess? Very well, I'd ask for a show of hands, but that would derail the thread. I certainly don't know any pagans who do off the top of my head (other than Deb).

you don't?! man, i can't swing a dead familiar without hitting 3 or 4 dozen!

i'm not saying i agree with that pov... quite the contrary in fact. but it certainly seems like the greater majority do. the path of least resistance, i guess.

[Sequoia]

Okay, this is in reference to *all* of your posts, but :yourock:

Honestly? Aside from Dianic Wicca, I can't see how. Wicca isn't a goddess religion and all these fancy moons and semi-precious stones have nothing to do with the heart of Wicca. [shrugs]
Indeed. I am mostly monotheistic - I see the universe (at least my little corner of it) as having been created (or vastly modified) by a single deity. I personally feel that deity, if it has a sex, is female. I don't think of it as "Goddess." I do have a pendant with a crescent moon, mostly because I saw it in reaccuring dreams. ;) Through time, it began to be a sort of reminder to me of God - the crescent served to remind me of the more maternal relationship as I felt (and feel) it. At the very bottom tip of the crescent is a small, even-length cross. I do believe in Angels, which I suppose in that form would be related to Christian and Jewish mythology... but it also serves to make me think of God as the center of my universe, in the middle of it, but reaching out and through it, as a broad part of it.

Now, see? I have taken the crescent (ooh, Dianic/Goddess/Mother symbol) and brought it into my own personal beliefs, while having NOTHING to do with Wicca. I have taken a cross (eep, wow, that must mean I'm an X-ian!), and brought it into my own personal beliefs without swearing my soul to Jesus for all time.*

Some symbols and shapes are very common, and can have similar or different meanings to people, without being tied to those specific belief systems at all. I mean, hell, my pendant didn't have these beliefs when I had it made - it was a symbol I saw repeatedly in dreams until I commissioned the piece. The meanings only came later, and I imagine it will form even more meaning to me as time goes by.

... aside from all that, people, Walmart is NOT evil. Walmart is a corporation. Then again, I don't see capitalism as evil. Oh well. To each his own, I suppose. More cheap goods for me! :p

*No insult meant to those who have pledged their soul and lives to Jesus - he's a cool guy, and I completely respect your decision. :hugz:

[TaysatWesir]

One of my favorite Halloween costumes is my devil costume. I even wore it to work one year, when Halloween fell on a Friday.

Now, I work in IT for a Catholic hospital, (in a different building that the actual hospital,) and here I show up dressed all in red, with red makeup and lipstick, with the horns, tail, and pitchfork. Everyone in the department loved it - but I was asked by the CIO of the hospital to please remove the horns and tail, and to leave off the pitchfork if I was called on to do a service ticket in the hospital. Apparently he was worried that I would be walking through the halls, and someone might be coming to from the drugs or just wake up from a nap, and think they had died and gone to Hell!

Ah, good times.

:rollingla AH LOL!

[Aidron]

you don't?! man, i can't swing a dead familiar without hitting 3 or 4 dozen!

i'm not saying i agree with that pov... quite the contrary in fact. but it certainly seems like the greater majority do. the path of least resistance, i guess.


[shrugs] I don't disbelieve they are out there, but if any have said they do on Mystic Wicks (other than perhaps within a day or two) I have long forgotten it.

Though I am constantly being spoken for by others in what I practice. I cannot tell you how many people I have to correct, whom claim I am everything from Wiccan to "He knows anything you send out comes back times three." Now that, that I find to be bothersome.

[Aidron]

Okay, this is in reference to *all* of your posts, but :yourock:

Indeed. I am mostly monotheistic - I see the universe (at least my little corner of it) as having been created (or vastly modified) by a single deity. I personally feel that deity, if it has a sex, is female. I don't think of it as "Goddess." I do have a pendant with a crescent moon, mostly because I saw it in reaccuring dreams. ;) Through time, it began to be a sort of reminder to me of God - the crescent served to remind me of the more maternal relationship as I felt (and feel) it. At the very bottom tip of the crescent is a small, even-length cross. I do believe in Angels, which I suppose in that form would be related to Christian and Jewish mythology... but it also serves to make me think of God as the center of my universe, in the middle of it, but reaching out and through it, as a broad part of it.

Now, see? I have taken the crescent (ooh, Dianic/Goddess/Mother symbol) and brought it into my own personal beliefs, while having NOTHING to do with Wicca. I have taken a cross (eep, wow, that must mean I'm an X-ian!), and brought it into my own personal beliefs without swearing my soul to Jesus for all time.*

Some symbols and shapes are very common, and can have similar or different meanings to people, without being tied to those specific belief systems at all. I mean, hell, my pendant didn't have these beliefs when I had it made - it was a symbol I saw repeatedly in dreams until I commissioned the piece. The meanings only came later, and I imagine it will form even more meaning to me as time goes by.

... aside from all that, people, Walmart is NOT evil. Walmart is a corporation. Then again, I don't see capitalism as evil. Oh well. To each his own, I suppose. More cheap goods for me! :p

*No insult meant to those who have pledged their soul and lives to Jesus - he's a cool guy, and I completely respect your decision. :hugz:


Your post simply supports my statement though. The necklace posted hold no inherent religious affiliation, but one can certainly find religious significance in it; just as they can in anything. When I feel the wind, I find religious significance in that and immediately thank Aeolus (especially if I am hot), but the wind itself is not inherently religious. My point of view simply makes it such.

And actually, angels existed long before Christianity or Judaism. In Babylon they had several pairs of wings, fangs, flaming swords, many eyes and were if anything, quite fearsome to behold... so history claims.

And the cross I would not inherently consider religious in a reflection of Christianity. It's two intersecting lines, far too simply to belong to any one culture or faith, though yes, in many cases it often does reflect Christianity. One could, however, find Pagan interpretations in it if they so wished. For those who believe in only four elements, it could reflect that as opposed to the pentagram representing five, which wouldn't tie in very well with this hypothetical person's beliefs.

[Jenne]

Wow, alot of self-important, self-righteous bigotry goin' on here. *checks forum* Yup, still MW...

Anyway, the point made to me about "where does it stop" vis a vis disrespect about the perjorative use of a costume and representations of sacred symbols and taboo usage of what should be an honorofically-based icon. Well, all I can say is that I said a message for those who choose to see it/listen/pay attention to it...those who don't, won't, choose not to...etc.

*shrug* You can DENY or REBUKE those who have feelings about the portrayal of a symbol they hold sacred or at least the very opposite of what they see it used for in a commercial, fun, entertaining way, that's your choice. You can tsk-tsk those who want to improve the image of Pagans and Neopagans through the protest of such usage. The fact of the matter is, you can have an AWEsome Devil costume without the usage of a hugeass pentacle. I know, because I was a beautiful devil once, and I had no such icon on my person.

Be that as it may, I don't necessarily see the big deal in wanting public opinion toward the pentagram to change. It's how you go about that process that's the point. Show that respect that is lacking in using the pent in the first place to others. Show that it is earned, and it is not the "work of the devil" we do here.

I'm not sure I see the unreasonableness of that argument. And, btw, anyone who was mistaking my comment for respect for a "now, now, let's not all get our panties in a twist here" doesn't know me very well. LOL I can scrap in a good argument with the rest of them...and usually do down over in Political Pagan.

[Sequoia]

Your post simply supports my statement though.
I know, that was my point ;)


The necklace posted hold no inherent religious affiliation, but one can certainly find religious significance in it; just as they can in anything.
That, too, was my point. It had no religious significance when I had it commissioned. It came to mean something to me over time.


When I feel the wind, I find religious significance in that and immediately thank Aeolus (especially if I am hot), but the wind itself is not inherently religious. My point of view simply makes it such.
I'm like that too, 'cept exchange "wind" with "sunlight" and "Aeolus" with "God"... :p


And actually, angels existed long before Christianity or Judaism. In Babylon they had several pairs of wings, fangs, flaming swords, many eyes and were if anything, quite fearsome to behold... so history claims.
And that's so! Everything can probably be traced back to the culture before it, and the culture before it, and so on and so on... such is humanity.


And the cross I would not inherently consider religious in a reflection of Christianity.
'Course not. ;) Just the most common reference these days.


One could, however, find Pagan interpretations in it if they so wished. For those who believe in only four elements, it could reflect that as opposed to the pentagram representing five, which wouldn't tie in very well with this hypothetical person's beliefs.
Or it could represent the center of all, or it could represent a spider (err, a gimped spider), and so on and so forth... the possibilities are endless, limited only by the imagination.

In the end, a symbol is only what the mind makes of it. I seriously doubt any god or spirit really gives a crap what shape we assign to them. :ghost:

[DragonsChest]

I've gotten so much green karma for my Halloween story, where I dressed up like a devil, while working in a hospital, that I just want to say thank you. It's one of my fondest memories of this place where I put in so much of my time and life - I'm really glad you all enjoyed the story as much as I enjoyed living it and enjoy remembering it.

I really work for a great place, and they overlook my, oddities of character, on a regular basis.
Happy Halloween and Blessed Samhain to all!

[Xentor]

I did see a post elsewhere that showed a church,in Germany I think, whose wrought iron fence had a whole line of pentacles at the tops of the bars.....I'll try to find the link _vb_

The bigger St. John church (R.C.) in my town has wooden folding seats between the benches. In case there are too many people visiting the mass, they can use the wooden seats.

The actual seat part of all seats have a pentacle perforated into the wood. Not just a pentagram... there's a circle around it.

Fun fact: I didn't even notice that until Kaylara brought it to my attention. ;)

[MercysFallen]

I have Pete's pentacle :-)

Anyway I have seen the gaudy Hallowe'en costume one in many stores sold seperate. I perchased a pentacle candle holder when I worked at a retail store. It was nice plain black with a cadle on the top.

Ren

[~Macha~]

Wow... I didn't realize that my necklace pic would get so much attention...
BTW- still love the Devil story, I share it with ppl
Anything a person sees can be shaped or misconstrued to mean whatever they want it to mean. I personally wear a star and a moon because I am not comfortable wearing a pent b/c I am still in the broom closet with my family and some friends... but that doesn't mean every third girl wearing stars is a pagan.
Ah well...
I am personally just waiting for an argument to happen and the thread getting closed.

[VioletPuddle]

Wal-Mart would have a devil Halloween costume because IT'S HALLOWEEN. People dress up in wierd outfits and costumes, remember?
I do not see Christians getting all pissed off and threatening lawsuits when they see Naughty Nun costumes that include a habit, cross, and little else; or those little vampire medallion things which are always cross-shaped. It's most likely that whoever designed the costume did a Google image search for 'Satan symbol' and found pentacles - I just did so, and a lot of them cropped up.
As for Wal-Mart not hiring pagans, well, my (gay) best friend worked at Wal-Mart and he's pretty damn pagan.
Of course, it could just be a massive Christian plot. After all, if people see someone wearing a devil costume with a pentacle necklace, they'll assume that everyone who wears pentacle necklaces ALSO wear devil costumes! It makes SO MUCH SENSE now!
GROW UP AND GET OVER IT.
And yes, I am a jerk.

Agreed. =/

[pentacledreamer]

You know you that get all hyped up about what he said.. aren't well just being drug into this... and all of us need to get over it.. and I"m including myself becuase I was going to rant about how I didn't like that.. but then again it's so immature anyway.. you should shrug it off and enjoy the season.. or just buy the thing and hang the necklace somewhere.. hey a peter stone looking design.. lucky you..

[Caffiend]

One of my favorite Halloween costumes is my devil costume. I even wore it to work one year, when Halloween fell on a Friday.

Now, I work in IT for a Catholic hospital, (in a different building that the actual hospital,) and here I show up dressed all in red, with red makeup and lipstick, with the horns, tail, and pitchfork. Everyone in the department loved it - but I was asked by the CIO of the hospital to please remove the horns and tail, and to leave off the pitchfork if I was called on to do a service ticket in the hospital. Apparently he was worried that I would be walking through the halls, and someone might be coming to from the drugs or just wake up from a nap, and think they had died and gone to Hell!

Ah, good times.
_whistle_ Meeeemmories, like the corners of my mind :falloffch

[charmedkisses1]

Our walmart here is half full of halloween costumes.

it's annoying, all I want is school supplies and I trip over a 50's wig in the aisle

[Juniper138]

I bought that penacle! lol I thought it was cute. I took the neckchain part off and put the pentacle on a nicknack shelf.

[Sequoia]

I bought that penacle! lol I thought it was cute. I took the neckchain part off and put the pentacle on a nicknack shelf.
See? That's the spirit. :lol:

[David19]

Wal-Mart would have a devil Halloween costume because IT'S HALLOWEEN. People dress up in wierd outfits and costumes, remember?
I do not see Christians getting all pissed off and threatening lawsuits when they see Naughty Nun costumes that include a habit, cross, and little else; or those little vampire medallion things which are always cross-shaped. It's most likely that whoever designed the costume did a Google image search for 'Satan symbol' and found pentacles - I just did so, and a lot of them cropped up.
As for Wal-Mart not hiring pagans, well, my (gay) best friend worked at Wal-Mart and he's pretty damn pagan.
Of course, it could just be a massive Christian plot. After all, if people see someone wearing a devil costume with a pentacle necklace, they'll assume that everyone who wears pentacle necklaces ALSO wear devil costumes! It makes SO MUCH SENSE now!
GROW UP AND GET OVER IT.
And yes, I am a jerk.

I know this is a very old post, but, I really wanted to say QFT, and Amen ;)!, why was this such a big deal that Wal-Mart sells devil costumes, Asda (http://www.asda.co.uk/corp/home.html)(a UK store that is owned by Wal-Mart now), and loads of other shops over here, sell devil costumes, and other costumes, especially at Halloween, they, and others, also sell Nun, and, I think, Priest, and, again, I think, Monk, etc costumes, and, I don't see Catholics getting pissed, or any other Christian, you can also buy sexy Witch costumes (I doubt many Pagans will complain about that, unless there are some Pagans who hate being depicted as sexy ;)!). It was Halloween, what do people expect, it's not, and, probably, wasn't Wal-Mart trying to "scare away competition", or "make Pagans look bad, and evil", or being "intolerant", and "unaccepting". etc, it was Wal-Mart, a multinational company, wanting to make money, by selling costumes, at Halloween, when, a lot of people want to buy costumes, of scary things, like devils, demons, vampires, witches, or, as fun things, like Nuns, Monks, Priests, witches, vampires, ghosts, etc.

I say, next time someone sees a devil costume at Wal-Mart, or wherever, don't "sream persecution, and oppression", or, think, "those evil, intolerant, unaccepting Christians", etc, think "that might be a cool costume to wear, or for my kid(s)", or, go out and organise, or get invited to, a Halloween party, etc.

[Toby Stimpson]

ooo, thread necromancy Dave... mymy.

As a person who has, and works (for the next three days) currently AT walmart, I have to say that wal-mart does not make it's own products. They do not produce the halloween costumes they sell and instead have smaller subsidiaries or other production companies make them. Many times these companies don't care what symbols mean, they will make and sell them based on public social perception.

I doubt very much that walmart or the company that made the costume even knows who Peter Stone even is!... and a design as simple as knotwork around a pentagram is very very easy to replicate without having seen peter stone.

So even if this is an old thread, I as a walmart employee can say in all honesty walmart woudlnt care, and it is a children's costume :)

ps. Nice magic used there Dave :toofless:

[David19]

ooo, thread necromancy Dave... mymy.

As a person who has, and works (for the next three days) currently AT walmart, I have to say that wal-mart does not make it's own products. They do not produce the halloween costumes they sell and instead have smaller subsidiaries or other production companies make them. Many times these companies don't care what symbols mean, they will make and sell them based on public social perception.

I doubt very much that walmart or the company that made the costume even knows who Peter Stone even is!... and a design as simple as knotwork around a pentagram is very very easy to replicate without having seen peter stone.

So even if this is an old thread, I as a walmart employee can say in all honesty walmart woudlnt care, and it is a children's costume :)

ps. Nice magic used there Dave :toofless:

Good post, and, yes, my necromancy powers are amazing :) ;)!.

[Darbla]

It's almost that time! Halloween stuff everywhere (even though it's all commercial, it's still fun)! :bad::deviltail _firedevil:devil::smoke::tarotwitc_vb_:broomride_witchball:bat::ghostie::vamp::apumpkin:

[Toby Stimpson]

It's almost that time! Halloween stuff everywhere (even though it's all commercial, it's still fun)! :bad::deviltail _firedevil:devil::smoke::tarotwitc_vb_:broomride_witchball:bat::ghostie::vamp::apumpkin:

Im looking forward to getting myself a white mask :D... Im going to paint it and add horns and be a Yokai for hallween. Its going to look so goood

[BlueMoon13]

I say, next time someone sees a devil costume at Wal-Mart, or wherever, don't "sream persecution, and oppression", or, think, "those evil, intolerant, unaccepting Christians", etc, think "that might be a cool costume to wear, or for my kid(s)", or, go out and organise, or get invited to, a Halloween party, etc.

Nice thread necromancy! :thumbsup:

When it comes to these types of issues, I think we (witches, pagans, and other interested parties) need to pick our battles so that when something comes up that we want to be taken seriously about, we are. If we yell and scream and stamp our feet every time we see a Halloween costume or a "witch crashing her broom into a tree" decoration, no one will ever take us seriously, about anything.

[Stormbeard]

Saaaaataaaaaann

[LadyLuthien]

So, what do you expect from a store that has a whole area devoted to Christian books and no Pagan or other kinds of books what-so-ever?

It does not come as any big news flash that Wal-Mart is a flaming Christian store. It has been for years.

I think there was a big law suit about them dismissing any Pagan employee they found several years back.

We'll see, seeing as I work for Samsclub and I wear mine in plain sight. :)

[BlueMoon13]

Saaaaataaaaaann

:banallama:

[Louisvillian]

True, but it still mystifies me why such a Christian store would have a devil costume in it at all........ Dove
Well...it's a ****ing Halloween costume, for one. Wal-Mart is first and foremost a store (I've never really thought of it as a "Christian store", nor do I understand why anyone else does; to me, it's just a cheap ****ing retail outlet) and will capitalize on any public holiday for money. Thus is the nature of capitalism. I mean, what else do you expect from the largest chain store in the Western hemisphere?

Secondly, it's just a Halloween costume. Who gives a **** what it looks like? The whole point of it is just to play on traditional stereotypes of what's "scary" so kids can have fun. Not every little thing involving stereotypes of witches and pentagrams are examples of persecution. What is with the whole Poland syndrome these days? :wtf:

[Clair de la Lune]

Well it seems that Wal-mart has lightened up and is not the blatant Christian store it once was in recent years past. When the "South Park" movie first came out on DVD, my parents went there to look for it and were met with disapproval when one of the employees said, "this is a family store, we don't sell movies like that". Now they sell movies like "Saw", "The Grudge" and "American Pie" and I think I may have seen the "South Park" movie the other day, though I am not sure. They sell a LOT of 'Unrated' and 'Director's Cut' versions of movies too. My how times are a slowly changin'!:hehehehe:

[David19]

It's almost that time! Halloween stuff everywhere (even though it's all commercial, it's still fun)! :bad::deviltail _firedevil:devil::smoke::tarotwitc_vb_:broomride_witchball:bat::ghostie::vamp::apumpkin:

Almost?, it's still summer, don't go looking forward to the cold, rainy autumn already (that said, it wasn't that great today, but still, enjoy the summer).

[David19]

Nice thread necromancy! :thumbsup:

When it comes to these types of issues, I think we (witches, pagans, and other interested parties) need to pick our battles so that when something comes up that we want to be taken seriously about, we are. If we yell and scream and stamp our feet every time we see a Halloween costume or a "witch crashing her broom into a tree" decoration, no one will ever take us seriously, about anything.

Thanks, and very true, I mean, if Pagans yell at everything and call it "persecution", "oppression", etc, it takes away from those things that are truly persecution, oppression, etc. A Satan costume is not "persecution", "oppression", "fundamentalism", "bigotry", etc, I mean, maybe the Pagans who complain about this are actually being intolerant, fundamentalists, and persecuting and oppressing other religions, etc, I mean, what about Satanists?.

Also, most of the witch costumes I've seen are the sexy witch ones, Gods, what type of Pagans would complain about that, just go with it, and feel and look sexy.

[David19]

Saaaaataaaaaann

[puts on a Marge Simpson voice] Stormbeard, quit bothering Satan!.

[David19]

we'll See, Seeing As I Work For Samsclub And I Wear Mine In Plain Sight. :)

Qft.

[David19]

Well...it's a ****ing Halloween costume, for one. Wal-Mart is first and foremost a store (I've never really thought of it as a "Christian store", nor do I understand why anyone else does; to me, it's just a cheap ****ing retail outlet) and will capitalize on any public holiday for money. Thus is the nature of capitalism. I mean, what else do you expect from the largest chain store in the Western hemisphere?

Secondly, it's just a Halloween costume. Who gives a **** what it looks like? The whole point of it is just to play on traditional stereotypes of what's "scary" so kids can have fun. Not every little thing involving stereotypes of witches and pentagrams are examples of persecution. What is with the whole Poland syndrome these days? :wtf:

QFT, and very true :).

[BlueMoon13]

[puts on a Marge Simpson voice] Stormbeard, quit bothering Satan!.

Dammit, David! Now I just blew my coffee all over the monitor:hehehe:

You've set the bar for the day on me hearing anything funnier, nice work!:thumbsup:

[Jezibaba]

[puts on a Marge Simpson voice] Stormbeard, quit bothering Satan!.


:rollingla

[David19]

Dammit, David! Now I just blew my coffee all over the monitor:hehehe:

You've set the bar for the day on me hearing anything funnier, nice work!:thumbsup:


:rollingla

Thanks, I try ;)!.

[Darbla]

Almost?, it's still summer, don't go looking forward to the cold, rainy autumn already (that said, it wasn't that great today, but still, enjoy the summer).
Pardon me for looking forward to something other than summer, but it's summer here almost year-round. We get a few cold days in the Feb/Mar and that's about it. I never get to experience a beautiful red & gold Autumn, and we wear shorts at Christmas.

[David19]

Pardon me for looking forward to something other than summer, but it's summer here almost year-round. We get a few cold days in the Feb/Mar and that's about it. I never get to experience a beautiful red & gold Autumn, and we wear shorts at Christmas.

That make sense then, and I was only being sarcastic in my OP :).

[FaeriPryncess]

Silverfire Sarkmoon said:
Wal-Mart would have a devil Halloween costume because IT'S HALLOWEEN. People dress up in wierd outfits and costumes, remember?
I do not see Christians getting all pissed off and threatening lawsuits when they see Naughty Nun costumes that include a habit, cross, and little else; or those little vampire medallion things which are always cross-shaped. It's most likely that whoever designed the costume did a Google image search for 'Satan symbol' and found pentacles - I just did so, and a lot of them cropped up.
As for Wal-Mart not hiring pagans, well, my (gay) best friend worked at Wal-Mart and he's pretty damn pagan.
Of course, it could just be a massive Christian plot. After all, if people see someone wearing a devil costume with a pentacle necklace, they'll assume that everyone who wears pentacle necklaces ALSO wear devil costumes! It makes SO MUCH SENSE now!
GROW UP AND GET OVER IT.
And yes, I am a jerk.
Yes, people do dress up for Halloween.
And yes, you will find that virtually every symbol in the Craft/Paganism/Druidry/Asatru/etc. has, at one point or another, been deemed "evil" by someone.
Walmart is the bastion of corporate America. We know about them, and all their dark little secrets, don't we?
And yes, people will think whatever they think anyway, it's a case of bad media.
How does it change anything? It doesn't really. I agree with Silverfire.
And I have very strong opinions about these things.
But let us consider something about Halloween, then: isn't the whole thing highly misrepresentative of witch/pagan beliefs and symbolism? I am a witch. Do I really have *green* skin? A pointed nose? With several hairy warts? And am I really brewing noxious poisons in my cauldron to kill people and curse cattle and crops with? Am I reallly anything like Winnifred Sanderson??? Do I hang out with the Warlock? Do I belong to a diabolical mask-making company named Silver Shamrock?
No. And no one will attamept to verify *my* bone fides, they'll only think of Halloween.
But just remember that when someone comes up to you finally with that misguided thought that the pentacle you or I may wear is a "devil symbol" because of a poorly made plastic Walmart Halloween costume, you remind them that Walmart is the one who made that costume, anyway. Hopefully they will go off thinking of Walmart, and go get mad at them. Which is what they should do, if they truly had an issue and a lick of good sense.:T

[David19]

Silverfire Sarkmoon said:
Yes, people do dress up for Halloween.
And yes, you will find that virtually every symbol in the Craft/Paganism/Druidry/Asatru/etc. has, at one point or another, been deemed "evil" by someone.
Walmart is the bastion of corporate America. We know about them, and all their dark little secrets, don't we?
And yes, people will think whatever they think anyway, it's a case of bad media.
How does it change anything? It doesn't really. I agree with Silverfire.
And I have very strong opinions about these things.
But let us consider something about Halloween, then: isn't the whole thing highly misrepresentative of witch/pagan beliefs and symbolism? I am a witch. Do I really have *green* skin? A pointed nose? With several hairy warts? And am I really brewing noxious poisons in my cauldron to kill people and curse cattle and crops with? Am I reallly anything like Winnifred Sanderson??? Do I hang out with the Warlock? Do I belong to a diabolical mask-making company named Silver Shamrock?
No. And no one will attamept to verify *my* bone fides, they'll only think of Halloween.
But just remember that when someone comes up to you finally with that misguided thought that the pentacle you or I may wear is a "devil symbol" because of a poorly made plastic Walmart Halloween costume, you remind them that Walmart is the one who made that costume, anyway. Hopefully they will go off thinking of Walmart, and go get mad at them. Which is what they should do, if they truly had an issue and a lick of good sense.:T

A lot of witch costumes now aren't green skinned, quite a lot are the sexy witch costumes, ones that give a positive, IMO, view of witches, where being a witch is fun. Also, most people don't take Halloween seriously, it's a time to have fun, and a lot don't connect Halloween with Paganism, it's just fun, a time to party, get drunk (which, really, is any time ;)!), etc. I don't think it'll hurt Pagans that Wal-Mart sells Satan costumes, witch costumes, etc, afterall, Pagans don't have the copyright on witches, and, it's not just witch costumes that you can buy - you can buy quite a few Nun costumes, Priest costumes, Monk costumes, doctor costumes, Police costumes, Soldier, and/or other Army, costumes, etc. Do those groups complain?, no, so, why should Pagans. Also, I've never seen any witch costume, or whatever, come with a Pentacle.

Also, OT, but, I've heard (can't remember where I read this) that the common depiction of witches with green skin is 'cause, in the Middle Ages, when some people who practiced magic, or witchcraft, their skin would turn green 'cause of the Flying Ointments, so, it may not be so BS as a lot of people think.

[Louisvillian]

Besides, the "evil witch" stereotype is based on Mediaeval and storybook witches, not modern pagans.

[David19]

Besides, the "evil witch" stereotype is based on Mediaeval and storybook witches, not modern pagans.

Very true, as well :).

[Kern]

Most Christians will never stop associating the pentacle,pentegram(inverted or not),the ankh or any pagan symbol with satanism or the devil....
To them paganism is satanism no matter what you say or do. So basically you have to overlook them and educate those that have an open mind. Thats all that can really be done.

[Darth Brooks]

The point is that it even more firmly perpetuates the stereotype that the pentagram, the symbol of Wicca and one that is used by many other Pagans, is associated with the devil and those wearing it are "evil" or influenced by the devil.

Umm...The pentagram is still associated with the Devil, and not just by Christians, but by Satanists, too.

The pentagram was not invented by Wiccans, and it is not the sole intellectual property of Wiccans either. Furthermore, Wiccans don't own a patent on witchcraft, either. The pentagram is not "your" symbol anymore than it is mine or Pokemon's. You are certainly welcome to use it as you see fit - but so is everyone else.

And that includes Wal-Mart.

I realize this thread is quite a few years old, but come on now, really.