The Surrendered Wife

[Earth Walker]

:bigredgri Have anyone had the opportunity to
read the book: The Surrendered Wife? 80
What, women surrender? Hell no! :smash:
Quiet as the news is kept, uppity women pose a
substantial threat to the disgusting world order.
The book, by Laura Doyle, is full of helpful hints for
women about how we can downsize our expectations.
Its target is today's overworked, underpaid wives--
influenced by the modern women's movement to aspire
to paid family leave, employer-provided childcare, and the like, but rudely denied these reasonable desires
by the money-mongers in charge.
Starting to think that the patriarchal, profit-centric
system is due for a total overhaul? Such heresy is the
cue for the Doyles of the day to enter with a pronouncement: Surprise--the problem is actually
YOU. :confused:
Women are too controlling, Doyle admonishes. The
solution to our woes is to relinquish authority in the
one arena where some of us can actually exercise it--
at home. Hand the checkbook and finances over to
your man. Program yourself to say "I can't" instead of
"I can." And, she quips, if you have the urge to express
an opinion, just duct-tape your mouth. And I'm not
making any of this up.
Doyle's advice could only be taken by someone on
heavy doses of Valium. :crazy:
She sounds like the mistress of a Southern plantation
on the eve of the civil war, cooing in her gilded cage.
More rests on female shoulders than merely our own
survival. It's like the song says: The rising of the women
means the rising of the race--the human race.
So don't abdicate, sisters---agitate. :G :meanface:

[Wyrdsister]

I have not read this book, nor do I ever intend to. More right-wing propaganda, if you ask this cynical witch. The 50's were (oddly enough) 50 years ago, and that's where they should stay - in the past!

I guess when some people find themselves lost, they turn around and look at what people did in the past rather than boldly go forward and develop a new aproach.

*sigh*

Wyrdsister
The Opinionated

[Dragonmother]

Looking for a surrendered husband. http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/mary1777/index.htm
What can I say?
We had this dicussion on another board awhile back Needless to say, none of the women had much use for it.
In general, I was a passive person when I was younger, and I have to say it didn't do me much good.

[Kaylara]

I guess then that I am one of those women who are part of the problem... And you know what, I am damn proud of it! The problem is not that women need to be completely submissive to men, and that they shouldn't have their own opinions, and should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. Then again, I completely reject "traditional" gender roles.
I don't think that there is any particular way that one sex should be, or any domestic jobs that one sex in particular should have. Society cannot assign these roles to men or women, this is a personal decision. No other person can tell me how I should live my life, because they are not me. And I cannot tell anyone else how they should be because I am not them. If this is the way this woman would like to live her life, fine with me... The monment she tries pushing it on me though, is when I have have a problem.

Kaylara

[Lady Tana]

Once again I should have probably left this alone but I CANT!! *sigh*
This woman sounds exactly like my grandmother. She is the total sub to Grandpa, shes never held a job, never taken care of the finances, never done anything to go against what he says, all in all she is the "Good Christian Housewife" (not slamming anyone here with this by the way).
My Grandfather has never asked this of her... in fact they taught their daughters to be very strong women who in turn instilled that into their children (me as one).
But you would think it was 1950 when you go to their house. She serves him, she does all the housework (the "womans job"), she cooks all the meals...etc etc..
I asked her once if she ever thought about doing something on her own.. just because... having her own thoughts and decisions for once and she told me NO!!

I just cant imagine living like that. Our house is 'equal opportuinity'... (just ask ScreaminEagle..lol he'll tell you who wears the pants in our family!!) since I work full time (3 jobs in fact) its up to him to take care of the kids after school, and cook dinner. We share the rest of the work, and as soon as he goes back to work full time there will be alot more sharing. He would probably hate it if i suddenly became subserviant and left EVERYTHING up to him (plus the fact that he is horrible managing the budget!!)

This lady should have her head examined... IMHO.

[Mairwen]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! not the surrendered wives thing!!! :meanface: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! :uzi:

[Ozymandias]

I'm a guy and even I think this book is ridiculous. Not to say my mate isn't beautiful but her intelect means more to me than her legs. I don't beleive in extreme womens rights( hey if I want to pay for dinner let me it's showing a lady respect). I put my mate on a pedastool because that's where I think she belongs, she's a goddess.

[Earth Walker]

Women and men are equal, each to walk together
side-by-side....neither one behind/front of each
other.





The Goddess Smiles. :sunny:

[Dextra]

Originally posted by Ozymandias
I'm a guy and even I think this book is ridiculous. Not to say my mate isn't beautiful but her intelect means more to me than her legs. I don't beleive in extreme womens rights( hey if I want to pay for dinner let me it's showing a lady respect). I put my mate on a pedastool because that's where I think she belongs, she's a goddess.

Can't really argue with that. I am all for equal rights, but I'm no feminazi. I want to have all the same rights and priveledges as any man. But I still like being treated like a precious little lady by my man. ;)

[Niamh]

I'm with Dextra!

[Kaylara]

I also think that there is a difference between common courtesy and being completely submissive to your mate. I'm not a femnazi either... I think that we are equal, and should have equal status and rights. (None of this women as a minority crap) But if a man wants to open a door for me, I'm not going to get pissed at him. In the same respect though, I expect a man not to get all up tight if I hold the door for him! :)

Kaylara

[Carmelo]

Okay. While I disagree with this book, I think I see what she is getting at. She has been angered by what she sees as going against the values she was raised by: the role of a true Christian woman. So, she writes a book where she becomes Mrs. Cleaver throwing the cleaver at the progression of humanity. She wants to share her ideals, which is not a bad thing, with those who were afraid to say it themselves. The problem is, she went the wrong way.

While some women have forged their way in society today, it seems that men have given up and forgotten their roles (as she seems to be really stressing). Equality was not something she was raised with in her household because of her strong Christian upbringing, and that scares her. Dare she speak against a man who is really, and truly, scared as h*** of true equality? So, in her mind, that is how men have forgotten their roles and duties as the 'Man of the House', because women have questioned men.

This frightened woman knows that equality is pounding at her door, and she is afraid to answer. She missed the point.

There are areas of life where one sex excels at that the other cannot. Men have strengths and weaknesses that women would not understand, as do women. That is what makes us equal. Not what job we can do, but how we do it. Men use strength and reason, women use cunning and thought. Battle of the sexes? Throw that out the door. Anymore, it's a moot point (we've forgotten what the battle was truly about anyway)!

She wants to quell that equality because of the lack of understanding that she has. After all, how can one understand something that they have not known. It basically all boils down to fear of the unknown.

Rant at her all you want. Tell the Pink Mafia to beat her senseless with words she cannot understand. Get the Gay Pride Network to march on her behalf. Tell the men who consistently agree with women to try to get in their pants that they can finally go home, sigh, and put away their arguments. Either way, she should be prayed for so that someday she may begin to open her eyes and realize that even though our bodies are different- the human resolve is not. One day, she may realize that what she is striving against has helped in more ways than she thought about.

[rantnraven]

I surrendered!

Will you all marry me? Except Dextra - don't want to tick Carmelo off, ya know?

RnR

[gunner]

from one "conservative republican yattayatta you know the drill", this "surrendered woman" idea is gigo as too is the "feminazi" party line. we are partners, men and women. different, but equal and necessary to each other and each has their own strengths to build on and weaknesses to overcome but when we are together we can do wonders.

someone, observing my wife and i, once said "it amazed him how comfortably we 'went our seperate ways... together'", it puzzled me for a bit, i wasn't aware of any "seperate ways" just us being ourselves.

[gunner]

and the ladies responding to this thread show themselves well worthy of respect and love

[gunner]

Originally posted by Mystique
Women and men are equal, each to walk together
side-by-side....neither one behind/front of each
other.





The Goddess Smiles. :sunny:

exactly mystique!

[Tigerwallah]

They feel us breathing down the backs of their thick red necks. The world it changing, and change is scary. Pay it no mind. It's like Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the Right Wing conspiracy. They think if they flood the media with Right Wing bull crap, we will think that they are winning, and surrender. Surrender?!!! I plan on taking no prisoners!!!

[Earth Walker]

:D Wait until you see the whites of their eyes. :bigredgri

[Dextra]

Originally posted by Mystique
:D Wait until you see the whites of their eyes. :bigredgri

And as far as the feminist bit goes.... I say ladies, we have the ultimate power over men ......... ourselves.

What's wrong with us women using what we're born with to get what we want? :D

Works for me. Just ask Carmelo!
MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
:bigredgri :crazy:

[Earth Walker]

:) Use what we have as women to get men.
:D How 'bout Treasure Chest, no booby trapping allowed. ;)
Wasn't it Tammy Wynette who sang, He got the gold
mine, I got the shaft? :80

[Tigerwallah]

Look, I've never met a man capable of giving me what I want. If it works for ya, use it, but I prefer to take charge and do it myself. I've lost the energy to do all the right things to make a man enamored with me, and then have him give me what I want. I cut out the middle man, and just get what I want.

[gunner]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
They feel us breathing down the backs of their thick red necks. The world it changing, and change is scary. Pay it no mind. It's like Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the Right Wing conspiracy. They think if they flood the media with Right Wing bull crap, we will think that they are winning, and surrender. Surrender?!!! I plan on taking no prisoners!!!

just don't confuse the "religious right" with the real conservatives, we believe in the maximum freedom for everybody within rules that help us live together as a society. but those rules should not govern private matters such as a woman's decisions about her body, private opinions on any subject, personal choices about sexuality, religious choices and several other subjects. "politically correct" is anathema to a real conservative, as is the interesting notion currently held by too many on both the left and right that we should be ruled by "our betters". i thought we did away with that sillyness back in '76 whe we tied a can to "john bull's" tail.
"gunner"

[lynx]

I have given this subject a whole lot of thought. This is what I have come up with....

Ever since the biblical era, woman was related to as property. (Those of you who think I'm wrong, I am not even started yet.) She was sold, traded, bardered and even stolen. A man was thought of as great if he owned (and I mean owned) the rich man's daughter. He would bargin with the father and the daughter was sold.

A woman has always been a mans property. Throughout all of time woman was dragged along with man. Many men say that woman is the great goddess and mother to all, but when asked of their wives, those asking are shunned. The wife is always different they say. She is of human blood. Not of royal goddess blood. So she is able to bear young. So what?

I could say that men are the root of all the world's problems, but I would then be like those with the shallow minds that I just discussed. I know that I am a woman and that no man no matter how big or smart will ever get in my way. I am also human. I breath. I eat. And I will not lye down when those of us are dealt with such idiotic stupidity.

This writter apearently knows nothing of life, for she would not be against herself as she is. To say that we women are but property, is to live life in the biblical era for ever. Some just haven't caught up with the civil world just yet. (Meaning the book writter.) What crap they allow to be published. :G

Lynx

[lynx]

Women Problems.....

Just a little something that makes you go,
HHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.......

MEN tal illness :confused:
MEN straul cramps :meanface:
MEN tal breakdown :crazy:
MEN opause :G

GUY naecologist :smash:

and when we have real trouble it's a HIS terectomy

Ever notice how all a woman's problems start with men?

:rolleyes:

Lynx

[gunner]

that's the thing about free speech lynx. she, like everyone else has the right to make a fool of herself in public, but on the other hand we have no corresponding "duty" to listen as she does so. nor does the writer have any right to go beyond expressing her ideas to try to force you to live by them. when/if she tries that your right to free speech entitles you to say "bugger off" as loudly as you like. nor are you required to be polite about it.

[lynx]

Originally posted by gunner
that's the thing about free speech lynx. she, like everyone else has the right to make a fool of herself in public, but on the other hand we have no corresponding "duty" to listen as she does so. nor does the writer have any right to go beyond expressing her ideas to try to force you to live by them. when/if she tries that your right to free speech entitles you to say "bugger off" as loudly as you like. nor are you required to be polite about it.

I can surly understand. I guess some people just like to make an apple of themselves in public. So be it... I guess I learned that there really are some weird ones out there in the public that are accepted. HEE HEE :bigredgri

Lynx

[SeekerSandy]

Women, like men, come in all varieties of life-stye and desire--from submissive, old fashioned to strong feminazi and extremes from butch to fluffy. The only thing that matters in any relationship is that both are comfortable and happy, and of course, no one gets hurt.
Personally, this old 'conservative' Libertarian finds ladies to be (for the most part) walking, living, breathing Goddess incarnations, deserving of respect, admiration and proper treatment. I do, however, believe that ladies should be encouraged to have a mind and the ability to express it.
In any relationship, both parties are equal partners; their individual strengths and weaknesses working towards a strength greater than the sum of the parts.
So there.

[Tigerwallah]

Sorry guys. I live in Virginia Beach, where there is no difference between the religious right(Pat Robertson is practically my neighbor) and conservative. Here the two go hand and hand. Up until a year ago, I lived right outside of New York City, and Los Angeles(briefly) Being in the artist's community, I did not know one conservative.
So, I must admit that my experiences with conservatives have been limited, and pretty negative. Sorry about my narrow view.

[Tigerwallah]

It is not true that women have been property throughout "all of time." I recommend highly the book "When God Was a Woman" by Merlin Stone - published by Barnes and Noble. Merlin uses archeological findings to back up the theory that Women were the original leaders - of both gov't and religion. I recently read an article in my local newspaper about ancient graves found in Mesopotamia that supports her theories. Believe me, I read it and it all makes sense, and puts into place how we became subjugated by males. It's a really fascinating read.

[gunner]

no worries tiger, i know some "conservatives" that seem to think that all "liberals" are screaming left anarchists. actually when you get that far out it gets hard to distinguish between the "radical left" and the "radical right". much like trying to find a real difference between the "corporate states" of soviet communism and nazi germany. both arrived at the same place wherever they began.

[SeekerSandy]

Pat Robertson and his ilk give us a bad reputation. Lumping all "conservatives' into one generalized perception is akin to stating that all blonde females are dumb, or that all witches practice 'black' magick, or that Druids sacrificed virgins and babies. What I perceive as a 'true' conservative would be more appropriately labeled 'classic liberal' in that we are believers in total personal freedoms, and responsibilities.
Many of us left the GOP for the Libertarian party for the reasons that have been written in this thread. And the fact that we felt that 'conservatism' had left us for the likes of Robertson and company.
Some of us have returned to the GOP to try and change things and to flee the wierd ones who invariably surface in the LP.
In my little town, a great number of 'conservatives' feel the same way and are creating a local branch of the Liberty Caucus. Why? Because they believe in our inherent right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I am amazed at the number of these people who would otherwise be labeled 'red necks' and such, yet who are aware of my religious beliefs and accept them. They are also strong believers in equality of race and the sexes.
There is hope!

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
This book reminds me of the southern Baptists.They came out a year or two ago with a resolution that the wife should be subservient to her husband,and he should be subservient to God.They're the most numerous or dominant religion in the area.I was shocked,figured we'd be past all that bull by now.
Peace and love
Rain Brightstar

[Earth Walker]

:sunny: Hi Sisters. :)

Here is a great site for all of you. :D

http://www.danaanpress.com/alib/ffirst.html

:cool:

[gunner]

sounds like you and i are in the same book and page pretty much sandy.

[SeekerSandy]

How strange, a couple of 'right thinking' witches, Gunner. Actually I run across fellow thinkers quite often. Unfortunately, we take a lot of undeserved shots because some people only believe what they are taught or what peer pressure requires. I like most Pagans because they think for themselves. Unfortunately, too many think in very strict terms, as intolerant as the rednecks they so detest.
Wotta world we live in.

[Tigerwallah]

I called the Religious Right rednecks. I'm assuming that that term does not apply to you since you call yourself a witch. I also explained where my limited view comes from and apologized.

See, here's the problem. We get incensed over words, but do not really read what they are saying.

Again, I am a NY Yankee living in Pat Robertson country. This is my first experience with "conservatives". I'm sorry if I've offended you. I assure you that I was not calling you a redneck.

[gunner]

no worries tiger, since i'm not one of robertson's flock i didn't take your comments personally. i did want to draw a line between the real conservatives (or "classic liberals" as sandy describes us, what used to be a liberal before the radical left co-opted the term the last twenty years or so) i think you'd find the likes of sandy and i more comfortable neighbors than either gang of radicals since we don't much care what you say or think or how you live as long as you keep the peace and respect your neighbors rights as your should expect yours to also be respected. when it comes down to the crunch your rights are as important to me as my own because they are the same, if you can be shut up i'm likely next so we may disagree in detail but we are together in guarding our freedom.

[SeekerSandy]

I'm not offended, Tigerwallah. You know what you see and experience. I simply relfect that it is easier to make (negative) generalizations than it is to know the facts. Bottom line is that there are many mis-labeled people out there who give others a bad reputation. Pat Robertson is as fraudulent a 'conservative' as Newt was. We had one Pagan lady in Nevada who took on an absurd crusade against a local business and gave us all a black eye. Go figure......
For every Gunner or me, there are many more who feel as we do and would fight to the death for your (and our)religious beliefs and your right to speak your mind freely, whether they agree with you (or us) or not. Personally, I like hearing your thoughts, it shows that there is much work to do and that by discussing, we can accomplish anything.
Blessed Be and Live Free!

[lynx]

It is known that many religions and groups of people acknowledge woman only by their worth. What they are able to give and do. Not what they can offer. There is a difference. Many don't see this difference. Those of us who do, are classified as feminists. People who are only trying to rock the boat, per say.

All through out history it is woman that is blamed. Helen of Troy started the Trojen war. A woman asked for the head of John the Baptist. Eve was blamed for convincing Adam to eat the fruit. And on and on....

There are so many that it would take a life time to tell. Expecially since there are more names to add to the list just as we speak.

The one that really gets me is....

A girl comes home pregnant. She is unwed and without the father. First thoughts from many are that she is a whore. She asked for it. She also knew what she was doing. She is in many situations, disowned by the family she came to rely on. (Yes times have changed, but remember, that doesn't mean all people change!!) Exspecially when it comes down to the father.

Ever notice that the father of the child never has to suffer what the mother and child must go through? And when he does, oh god help us all. What did he do wrong? Seems to be the main question asked.

Honest answer wanted....

What do you think of a woman that has had relationships with many men?

Now, what do you think of a man who has had relationships with many women?

(These relationships can include sex and even may...)


Generally, the woman is classified as a slut, whore, prostitute, scaynk, ect.... :smash: The man is said to be really lucky.

Those of you who agree with the above info, one question....ever heard of MALE-WHORE? :eek: Many who haven't turn out to be. :bad:

No offence intended....

Lynx

[SeekerSandy]

Lady Lynx, you ask questions that you have answers ready for. I hope you're not putting words into everyone's mouths, that's intellectually dishonest.
Having known way too many young women in the situation you posed, my first reaction has always been, "does she need help?" I am not alone in that reaction as a male. And yes, I have known some (admittedly way too few but some) of the fathers involved who deeply regretted the situation and did, or at least attempted to do the honorable thing and either marry the mother-to-be, or provide support.
What do I think of anyone, of either gender, who has many relationships? If they are not abusive or manipulative, then they are enjoying life.
Don't be so quick to generalize and/or condemn, not every male is as evil as you perceive.
Sure as hell, there are some disgusting critters out there, but from personal experience I know them to be of both genders. However, I never allowed my experiences to poison my outlook or life or bear a grudge.
You just learn your lesson and move on.
Hope everyone had a lovely, loving and powerful full moon!

[lynx]

Here is your proof....

I am the friend of the woman I tell of. I have seen both men and women be in the same situation. I see I was able to grab your attention. I am glad there is someone out there who is able to say what many are afraid to say. Yes there are many men that I see alone with children. There are many men that I see alone or with many mates. Gender has no rule here. If only those who suffer from ignorance could see this. It is the ignorant that harm the wise. Intelligence seems to be always ignored.

Can you honestly say that you would feel nothing at all if a man or woman were to come up to you and call you a whore for not having a mate there with and your child?

Many unfortunatly are not able to ignore the other's ignorance. Ignorance of not acknowledging the simple fact that sometimes a child can not hold a relationship together. Somehow the ignorant one thinks we live in a sugar coated world, where all are happy and all are still like virgins. (Sarcasm....) Just because the other mate is not there, gives no reason to even begin to think that the child or children are not loved. It takes a great man or woman acknowledge this simple fact.

And there is your proof..........

Some of us may sound like we already have a personal view, but look again. Eyes wide open.....

Lynx

[SeekerSandy]

We're someone to call me a whore to my face, after much laughter I would consider the source and in all probability respond, "yes, but the difference between us is that there are some things I won't do for money."
There was a time when I took such name-calling personally and seriously. Perhaps being one with the Goddess and Horned Hunter has allowed me to think things through a bit before reacting.
Several times I raised my children alone while their mother was out, uh, well, screwing around.
My son raises his daughter alone. It would be easy to call my ex and his ex 'whore' or other names but what does that accomplish?
By the way, a majority of 'rednecks' vote democrat. Wierd, eh? Stupid people exist on both ends of the spectrum....
Those who are quick to condemn or call names are ignorant, maybe we can't do anything with many of them, but their numbers are dropping.
We do our best and move on.
Examples speak louder than words.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by lynx
....
Some of us may sound like we already have a personal view, but look again. Eyes wide open.....

Lynx

I haven't seen the book, but I have seen and heard the attitude that it describes. I spent many years trying to look mainstream (foolishly) and was a member and Elder in one of the most Conservative, Anti-Woman Churches you have ever seen, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints .. aka, Mormons. I was even married in the Salt Lake Temple. I was glad to leave the church, very glad, the lie I was living was really creeping me out in the end.

What this is leading to is that in "the church" women are taught beginning as little girls, toddlers even, that they are to be subject to men in all matters. The book is truly bush league compared to what I saw and heard while in "the church". I am aware of many Mormon women who are not of that mind and who do have their own jobs and careers, but they are a striking minority, for some women having a job is tantamount to not being faithful to their god because it takes them out of the home and away from raising their umpteenth child.

I am personally aware of a woman who divorced her husband after he raped their daughter and guess who the church expelled? Her! She was a "divorced" woman and was having relations with another man, but her incarcerated husband was seen as salvageable, even after raping his daughter more than once. That is only one of many examples I could cite.

As far as politics go; I am what you could call a Conservative Democrat, many folks call us "Blue Dog Dems," some folks call us worse. I would be the kind of Liberal gunner mentioned, the ones before the far left took the name. (I did not vote for, nor support little George though).

I know the kind of attitude Lynx is talking about and I have only seen a VERY few men called "whore" and they were gay, it was a double slam on them. I do know that while many young mothers have very supportive friends and family their are still a great number out there, many of them in the town where I live, still ship the daughter out until she has the offending child and then it is often raised as her sister. As far as the guy goes; nothing except perhaps being sued for support, which both he and his family fight tooth and nail and really get into some nasty things calling the mother all kinds of names and making all types of accusations, true or not, it doesn't matter, as long as it is said, because there are many folks who think that if a person is accused of something they must be guilty, even if it's not what they were accused of in the first place.

Well, so much for my little rant.

Not all folks are like this, I think it is beginning to turn, although the next few years will see a return to a dark age in our society, if we allow it.

Have a seat in the chair thingy, cool off and have a glass of lemonade. Hopefully it will help give you what you need to feel a little friendly.

Blue

[cydira]

Perhaps it's just me, but last I checked women and men were equal. I've heard about this book and I'm having *nuns* tell me to avoid it. Most people seem to think that a nun would encourage women to have the "traditonal" attitudes and such, but they're saying that alot of the attitudes that people claim to be traditional are just poisionous and used to manipulate people.

Now, I come from a family of strong women so maeby I'm a bit baised, but last I checked in the traditional household, women had alot of power. If this next bit seems mercenary to you, I apologize for the discomfort but I'm going to be honest. I'd have no problems living the "barefoot and pregnant" life for one simple reason, he'd be dependant on me. After all, I'd be cooking. How would he know what I'm adding to the dish? And I know where he'd be sleeping and there's so many possible uses for all of these household impliments of destruction. And alot of the older biases and attitudes stating that if a woman is "hysteric" they'll do anything provides a ready made alibi. After all, the postpartum depression wouldn't be that much of a difficult thing to use as an excuse.

As a woman that almost was trapped into a "traditional" role with an abusive monster, I have to say that I have no qualms about doing what I need to do to be true to myself and keep myself safe. From what my family has taught me, several of my ancestors and foremothers did the same when they needed to. Maeby what others call the "traditonal" family is really the problem. Tradtional familys may have had the woman in the house in many cases, but they were the management of the situation. Look at the time period that they're basing that image off of! If a man's out running a farm, he doesn't have time to keep track of his accounts or the more difficult aspects of the economics of it all. He has *no choice* but to be *partners* with his wife.

Sorry, I tend to get a little expressive about this. I'll get off of my soapbox now. :)

[cydira]

Just to toss in my 2 cents on politics (even though my momma taught me not to go running my mouth about politics too much)...

There are certian rights that a person has been garunteed by the United States of America. These rights are listed in the Constitution and are also detailed in the Declaration of Independance. I personally don't care what anyone does, just so long as it doesn't impune the rights of myself or some one else. When that happens, I will be as quick to take up arms as my ancestors who died in the Revolutionary War to defend those rights.

I personally don't adhere to the convienent labels that our society likes to give to different modes of thought. Call me a conservative, a liberal, an independant or a libertarian, you won't get the full picture. Just call me a citizen of the United States of America and know that I'm willing to fight for your freedom, even if you aren't willing to fight for mine.

Now I'm done on the soapbox. :)

[bluecat]

Originally posted by cydira
Just to toss in my 2 cents on politics (even though my momma taught me not to go running my mouth about politics too much)...



Your 2 pennies are just as good as anyone else's! And feel free to use the soapbox anytime! :)!

Blue :cool:

[rantnraven]

I sence a little hostility in this thread. And it is justified to a degree.

I agree with Cydira with what said about being equals and we should remember that.

Not all men are dominant nor are all woman. What I have been getting from this thread is a bit of finger pointing and goveling.

Why not start "The surrendered Man" thread, or the "Surrendered Child" thread. Maybe even the Surrendered pet thread.

I was married to a pretty wonderful woman. She died last year (not literaly) when she asked for a divorce. Why did she do that? Who knows. I was not abusive. She was going to school and I gave her every bit of room she needed. I cooked her dinner and cleaned the house - because she always had homework and had to study. We did our own laundry but I made sure the sheets and towels were fresh. The grocery store was like a foriegn conrty to her. She payed all of the bill from our account and hers - that had always stuck me funny that we always had ours and hers. For her graduation I bought her a 7 day cruise. Why? Because she didn't want the 3 or 4 day cruise - she'd already been to San Diego and Catalina; and the 7 day doesn't go there!

Do I sound a little bitter? I feel as though I was used; while she went through school I took care of her. We bought a house had new furniture and had two wonderful pets. The breakdown in our marriage didn't start happening until she was finished with school and got a big promotion. SHe even tried to pin me with her student loans but, you can't do that - not in this state anyway.

Non-the-less, there are men that do give and there are men that are also abused and there are men that are taken advantage of. I am growing weary of this thread and just wanted to voice my opinion on the issue.

We are equal here people. Let's all gather on the porch and have some lemonade!!!

Ranting-Raven

[rantnraven]

Just had to vent there for a spell.

*lemonade helping*

RnR

[Kaylara]

It's okay RnR... I understand your bitterness perfectly. The only way that we can make each sex equal, is by treating them that way. That doesn't mean forgetting about common courtesy that everyone deserves. If I reach a door before a man behind me, I hold it for him, and I would expect him to do the same for me. Not because he is a chavenistic pig who only wants to get in my pants, but because it is a nice thing to do.
I think that we need to just treat each other well, and on the same level as us. If we can do that, and put aside the bitterness of the past, we will truly be equal.
I am sorry to hear that someone would do such a horrible thing to you RnR. You are such a nice person, and in my opinion, she doesn't deserve the love you have for her. (And I know that you always will love her, in one way or another) If her true aim was only to get through school, and then dump you, excuse me but "WHAT A BITCH!" That is so wrong! I could never understand how people could use other people, I would never be able to sleep at night. My condolences go to you RnR, even though I know that you are alright with it now.

Blessed Be!
Kaylara Nightshade

[rantnraven]

Suddenly I am reminded of a blind date I had years ago. Your comment about opening doors conjured up the memory and I just have to share this with all.

I showed up with some flowers and knocked on the door. She gave me a funny look and said thank you, took the flowers and layed the on a table.

When we got to the car, I opened the door for her and again got a funy look and was informed that she could get her own door.

The drive to the restaurant consisted of her telling me how men just do things like that in order to "Get Some".

Now I was raised in the South and this is just how I act. When we got to the restaurat, I got the door and AGAIN was informed that she is capible of getting the door.

I was pretty steamed. :meanface:

When the waitress came over to take our order, my date ordered some steak dish thing with an extra lobster tail. When the wiatress looked at me for my order, I informed her that this would be on seperate checks, please. :uzi:

We didn't have dinner and I never saw the girl again.

Too Funny.

RnR

[Kaylara]

I think the kind of behavior that she exhibited is disgusting. If someone wants to do something nice for you, like bring you flowers, or open the door for you, accept it and tell them how you appreciate the thought. (Thank you. You're welcome. No YOU'RE welcome. Oh, you're too kind.) Like I said before though, it goes both ways. If my friend and I want to go out for dinner, and he doesn't have any money, I pay. I know full well that he would do the same for me, and so I don't see a problem with it. Those little common courtesies show respect. Many of those older people I have met have gone on and on about how the "kids" today have no respect. I had one elderly lady almost in tears because I held the door for her and didn't try to trip her. It's just my personal opinion that one has to show respect for everyone, even those who you don't know. It's just the nice thing to do.
(Although, I wouldn't have let you order dinner for me, I am a very picky eater. Stems from a bad gag-reflex, there are a lot of foods that will make me puke just by their texture.) I think that this world would be made much more plesant if everyone could just show some respect for each other. I mean, it's a great thing to be alive, why get ticked off when a guy brings you flowers???


Kaylara

[rantnraven]

It is exactly that thought that started the Older People thread that eventually got Carmelo and Dextra a computer and gave cause for this community to pull together as it did. WOW!

Hope they get back online soon. I do miss them.

RnR

Oh, and I'm glad you like my sig. Did the see the Really Valuable Lesson thread I started? That would explain the sig.

[Kaylara]

I'm going to check out that thread in a minute! :)

Kaylara

[cydira]

How about we agree to disagree? Some say it's a good idea...

:D

I understand alot of the hostility in this thread. To be honest, I think that quite a bit of it is made with valid points. But I think in some respects we're expressing the hostility in a way that isn't quite as productive as it could be. For example, several of us want to see additional social changes in the equality of women and men, what is the best way to enact this? Is it by arguing over the details of the gender equality problems or by looking at the motivation behind these problems?

Just an idea however....

PS:

The soap box may actually be useful for this short college student... then I can see what the heck my instructors are pointing out. :D

My momma said there's two things you don't discuss in public forums: religion and politics.
Too bad that they're my fave subjects to talk about. <lol>

[Xois]

What the book is saying is essentially true...if you want to have a "peaceful" marriage, someone's ego has to be sacrificed! Now, I don't necessirally agree that I should be the woman's, in fact, if you want to get right down to brass tacks, I think the man should submit...ooops...wrong forum

But seriously, I think what ever works for people is fine...If i had the bloody chance to be a stay at home mom / person, not have to work, not have to worry about finances, I would jump at the chance (as long as we were living comfortably)..I would work on my poetry and maybe actually get somehwere with it, and i would READ and I love to cook and experiment...Just so you know my demographic, I grew up, lower middle class, both my parents worked. Now I am a lot more comfortable...infact I make double what my parents make combined! Its sad!..

But unless I am gonna marry for money to someone who has a tolerably good personality, I am afriad, I am gonna have to work for a living! :D As as long as I am bringing in 1/2, than I get 1/2 the say! :)

I also think that the exactally WRONG reason to marry is for LOVE! Every man or woman I have ever loved has put me through hell! Or I have put through Hell! Much better to marry your best friend...Love is fickle, after all

*puts on flack jacket*

Ok, I am ready! HIT ME! :D

Xois

[bluecat]

Ladies, I don't think anyone is gonna hit ya!

Xios you can set your flak jacket aside, hon.

Agreeing to disagree is one of the things that is sort of a given in good civil discussion.

While I don't see anything that could be sensed as hostility, I do have a sense of extreme frustration with this thread. (But that's just me, ya know.) This is the kind of thing that opens emotional floodgates and lets it run over the banks. There are places and social circumstances that disallow women any personal choices are rights and those situations are brought to mind when this kind of thing is discussed.

Wet your whistles and know you are among friends.

Blue :cool:

P.S. Soap Boxes come in all sizes and some of them even safely stack and can be set up with little stairs, ;) .

[rantnraven]

Maybe hostility was not the word I was looking for. I think Blue better defined it with "Frustration". That's it.

Xois, it doesn't matter if you are a "stay at home" wife/mom whatever, you would still have responsibilities there and would be entitled you 1/2 say in things anyway.

I was raised middle-class and my mom, really, had the upper hand - though she was a stay at home mom. Dad didn't mind. That had various expectations of each other but, they were pretty much unspoken. At least we kids never heard anything.

RnR

[lynx]

It is certainly nice to know that there are those who see all as equal. I see here that there are many of those people. It a great thing to be able to say I am home here. I am able to argue with you and not offend you. It is greatly appreciated when you are able to comment on something that I have said. It shows me that you are all listening. Thanks.

My friend also says thanks. She can't believe that people are able to understand her situation. Just doesn't seem real to her. Thanks

Lynx

[rantnraven]

Originally posted by lynx
It is certainly nice to know that there are those who see all as equal. I see here that there are many of those people. It a great thing to be able to say I am home here. I am able to argue with you and not offend you. It is greatly appreciated when you are able to comment on something that I have said. It shows me that you are all listening. Thanks.

My friend also says thanks. She can't believe that people are able to understand her situation. Just doesn't seem real to her. Thanks

Lynx

Lynx, Here on the porch everyone will offer opinions but, it is the lemonade that keeps us in check. I think, here, though, we are all a very eclectic bunch, we follow the same reede: An it Harm None.

Blessings to you and your friend,
RnR

[Fairywolf]

As a conservationist, I have grown up in a household full of men. I can understand where some people come across as wanting women to be pregnant and barefoot after they are married. But as a liberal, I can understand that most women can not abide being pregnant and barefoot as most think common. I myself, think that most women should be able to do what they please. If they wish to stay home, be a housewife, that's fine. If they choose to have a carrer that's good too. I don't think that they should be condemned for what ever they choose. And those who condemn them should recollect on their own lives, to see their mistakes and not hold others to their own mistakes.

Mistakes are just that, mistakes. It doesn't matter who makes them, their are always made. I don't believe that anyone should be held accountable to the mistakes they have made, just to help them understand them so that they are not made again. And to anyone who believes that women are to be kept barefoot and pregnant, needs to be switch roles. So that they are able to see and feel what it takes. :bad:

Wolf :bigredgri

[Fawn]

I agree to a point there wolf but I personally feel that IF a woman wishes to stay home and raise children then let her we need more stay at home mothers look at the news--what's missing with these children?


I also personally beleive that IF the man wants to stay home and raise the children then the rest of the world should butt the dickens out of it and commend him for it--because children need their parents and it is easier and much better probability of having good children if one parent is at home!
Just my two cents worth.

[Earth Walker]

I think it is wonderful that a man be willing to stay at
home with the children. :sunny:

More and more, men are beginning to realize that they
don't have to be "macho" to be a man....and this really
angers the right-wingers, who insist that "real men"
have to be violent, keep "control of your woman",
etc.
It's wonderful that there are some men who realize
that both genders are equal. :heartthro

[*ULA*]

I read a book a few summers ago called Holding Out- and I can't remember who wrote it, but it was all about women fighting for more power thru the most effective avenue: sex. or lack of it. like the greek play (whats the name? whats the name? antigone? was that it?) where all the women denied their husbands sex until they changed the government.

i think the author of your aforementioned book should get a copy of this. great reading.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by *ULA*
I read a book a few summers ago called Holing Out- and I can't remember who wrote it, but it was all about women fighting for more power thru the most effective avenue: sex. or lack of it. like the greek play (whats the name? whats the name? antigone? was that it?) where all the women denied their husbands sex until they changed the government.

i think the author of your aforementioned book should get a copy of this. great reading.

:cool: That is Lysistrata by Aristophones. :cool: Hilarious!

Blue :D

[*ULA*]

Thanks for the help, it was really bothering me. :)