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Cyzarine
October 2nd, 2005, 10:45 PM
I have had a lot of pm's about how I can be a Catholic Pagan, how I blend the two, and my views on my faith. I decided to post a bit more about it, not to get things stirred up, but for those interested in seeing how I manage to be a Catholic Pagan.

The 10 Commandments:

1) Have no other gods but me

I believe this is a political miswritting in the bible to suit a time when leaders where trying to get the big vote by scaring people into sheepisim. It is my view that it may have actually been 'have no other gods before me,' which my view is that we understand our creation and honor whay we are here. It is like a father telling his grown children about to move out...'don't forget where you came from, and understand that you have me and I will be with you in your heart.'

2) Do not make idols

Plain and simple, do not worship the statue...but honor the god/goddess to whom the statue connects. Statues are physical, but gods/goddesses are spiritual.

3) Do not take the Lord's name in vain

I believe most people take this to seriously...god damn it. Vain does not mean swearing or using horrible language. Vain is thinking you are better then someone else. Simply put...do not use gods name in any act where you use him to justify being vain.

4) Keep the Holy Day

Whatever day is used to honor your god/goddess you must keep that day open to honor them. It is a day to be merry and thank them for all that you are and all that you have.

5) Honor your parents

This one is simply put straight forward. Even if your parents are not that good, you must realize that they gave you life...and life is a great gift no matter how hard things get thrown your way.

6) Do not kill

No senseless killing. But then again this is more of a personal view. I do not think any god/goddess will punish you for defending yourself and accidentaly killing someone.

7) Do not commit adultery

Duh! You would only be in big trouble if you did. I don't know very many husbands or wives that allow someone else to have 'you know what' with their better half...without some angry feelings. This one is to keep you safe from vengeful minds.

8) Do not steal

I believe this one is to teach us to love what we have and understand that material objects do not make us who we are...only we can do that.

9) Do not faulsely accuse

This is a very big one. Do not hurt another individual because karma is right around the corner...wating to bite you in the behind. If you lie and get caught even if you lie no more you are still a lier...that is how society works.

10) Do not covet

Why would you want what someone else has? Be happy with what you have. Life is short, and to love everything you have and love life...you will win at the end.

The Crucifiction:

It is my belief that Jesus was the son of God in the respect that God played a very personal part in his life. We are all sons and daughters of our chosen god/goddess. Jesus chose to die on the cross, not to save sins...but to prove a point. What point? Peace, love, courage, strength...etc. I think he wanted us to understand the meaning of baring our own responsibility. His time before his death was spent teaching these lessons. I believe his main goal for choosing death was to teach us, more then anything, not to lose faith in what we believe just because someone else says we are wrong.

Heaven & Hell:

Yes, I believe in heaven and hell. I just do not believe in the same heaven and hell that stereo-typical Christians believe in. My version of heaven and hell is like the chinese ying and yang. Neither is better then the other. It is a balance to the spiritual world. Without balance there would be chaos. I do believe there is a spiritually physical heaven and hell, but heaven is not some shiney good place where everyone are sheep...and hell is not the smoking endless brimstone pit with nothing but pure evil. Like the ying and yang...each heaven and hell have good and bad...more evil in hell with a good flavor and more good in heaven with and evil flavor. Balance...grey...ying and yang.

The End Times...or Rapture:

I believe something like this will happen. Not exactly as the bible has it laid out. The bible uses symbolic wording and one must come to read it with this understanding. What I think the rapture will be is a balancing out of our world. In this day and age we keep trying to seperate good and evil. No one really wants to be both. You either are a good person...or you are a bad person. There is no such thing. you can be mostly good, but you still have a tinge of badness inside. You can be mostly evil, but there is goodness within. When you keep trying to forcefully seperate the two you are opening the doors for choas. The good think they are better then the bad...the bad think they rule the good because of fear. A rapture will happen. What it will feel like or look like, I have no clue. I do think that it is not the end of the world.

The Sacraments:

Baptisim-Relate this to a pagan child blessing. A time when you ask your god/goddess to bless your child and protect and guide them until they find their path. That is really all a baptisim is. Yet again, Christians have put a view all of their own on it.

Eucharist-The bread and wine as the body and blood of Christ. Purely symbolic and magick at its best. It gives the sense of being closer to your god/goddess.

Reconciliation-Plain and simple...we ask for forgiveness for something we did wrong and if we truely mean it with our heart it will be forgiven. By doing so you lessen the karam that is on it's way back to you...but one must truely be sorry because karma knows when you didn't mean it.

Confirmation-Initiation. When one choses that the path is for them and makes it clear that they are ready to jump in mind, body, and soul.

Marriage-A glorified handfasting. Which with years of polical balance became legal. It is just a way to honor the love you have invested with another individual.

Priesthood-Priest/Priestess hood...can't put it much better.

Anointing of the Sick-A blessing to carry you into the afterlife. One that keeps you safe on your journey to your god/goddess...or back into a new body.

People of Different Faiths:

We should not judge. We should not slander. We should not punish someone for their belief if it is different from ours. Their is no right or wrong 'faith'. Their is right and wrong 'religion.' Religion is wrong...period. Religion segregates...faith bonds.

Agaliha
October 2nd, 2005, 10:55 PM
Interesting, I was curious how Paganism and Catholicsm were mixed. Thanks for posting :)

LadyCelt
October 3rd, 2005, 12:25 AM
I am getting to know a girl in my folklore class who is into Celtic Wicca who wants to Compare Cahtolocism to Wicca so this definately helps.


I am torn between whether it is no other God or no God before God. Lately, I lean more and more toward no other God before God but not that you can't be into other deities. Just be sure to keep the almighty one as the numero uno. I believe that the other deities were made by Godde. I feel Zeus was made by Godde and so was Amon Ra and Danu/Don and so on.

I have found the more I get into paganism and wicca, the more intimate my prayers with the Lord seem as well.


I used to try and convert my parents to Christianity last year when I was first baptised (but I was also out of it from bad meds.) I have done that less and less. I do get urked when my dad swears with Jesus and Godde. I view it this way, I do not force my faith upon him etc so I feel it is unfair. But, I love him and forgive him none the less. I feel only Godde and Jesus truly know where a soul is going. I feel we should leave judgement up to them and try to love and help others instead of scourning and negatively judging.

I never thought of confirmation with intitiation before this post, but very good point.

Nemesis Descending
October 3rd, 2005, 12:33 AM
Interesting view, the Ten Commandments converted to the Ten Guidelines. Hmmm, I wonder if "God" regrets setting them on stone tablets as opposed to parchment with erasable plant ink!? ;)

mcc
October 3rd, 2005, 03:12 AM
Interesting view, the Ten Commandments converted to the Ten Guidelines. Hmmm, I wonder if "God" regrets setting them on stone tablets as opposed to parchment with erasable plant ink!? ;)
Is it really all that different, didn't the first draft of the tablets get broken??

Morr
October 3rd, 2005, 03:24 AM
Yeah they did...

Cause Moses was in shock seeing the people of Israel dancing, drinking and commiting adultery while worshipping a Golden Calf.

Funny how that is a representation of Paganism/Polytheism/Idoletry... Since Polytheism is the biggest sin agains God according to Judaism... Christianity stems from Judaism and upholds this sin.

LadyCelt
October 3rd, 2005, 07:27 AM
I think there was competition against Baal for the Caananites if I'm correct. I think he is a deity of fertility and harvest. But, I could be wrong.

KEishin
October 3rd, 2005, 09:13 AM
I personally have no problem seeing Catholicism and Paganism mixing. Anyone who's ever been to a full mass (the Latin in particular, and sometimes the Novus Ordo) and watched the procession of the elements around the church, should recognize most of the basic ritual format of Wicca-derived Paganism.

Censer - air
Candles - fire
Patten - earth . . . similar to the pentacle, even in etymology
Holy water - water

The priest often will walk into start Mass and swing the censer/thurible to bless the area with the incense smoke. And transubstanciation . . . wow, it's the rite of cakes and wine with different symbolism.

ancestral_lee
October 3rd, 2005, 09:20 AM
I personally have no problem seeing Catholicism and Paganism mixing. Anyone who's ever been to a full mass (the Latin in particular, and sometimes the Novus Ordo) and watched the procession of the elements around the church, should recognize most of the basic ritual format of Wicca-derived Paganism.

Censer - air
Candles - fire
Patten - earth . . . similar to the pentacle, even in etymology
Holy water - water

The priest often will walk into start Mass and swing the censer/thurible to bless the area with the incense smoke. And transubstanciation . . . wow, it's the rite of cakes and wine with different symbolism.

except that the catholic use of this sort of 'ritual' predates wicca by a several hundred years.

cakes and ale? rip off of catholic transubstantiation.

dont forget wicca is a recent invention.

KEishin
October 3rd, 2005, 09:36 AM
except that the catholic use of this sort of 'ritual' predates wicca by a several hundred years.

cakes and ale? rip off of catholic transubstantiation.

dont forget wicca is a recent invention.

Didn't I make that clear? Oh well.

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 10:03 AM
I also thought I would post a little bit more on how I do blend the two.

The 10 Commandments I blend with the 13 Goals of A Witch. They are all sort of guidelines for how one should try and live there life. Karma can be a *insert bad word here* and these guidlines help to keep me from too much karma burn.

The Crucifiction ties into my story of deity. My chosen deities are God, Mary, Jesus. This is just one of the stories of my deity Jesus and his mother Mary.

Heaven & Hell...my personal view mixed in with my path/faith. Compare to ying and yang. You cannot have one without the other and neither is wholey good or evil.

The rapture is just a view from the Catholic faith that I incoporated in my path, but with a way that I do believe it was supposed to be ment.

The sacraments are pretty self explanitory with the way I blend them into Catholic Paganisim. They are in the first post for any who may not have read them.

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 10:07 AM
Yeah they did...

Cause Moses was in shock seeing the people of Israel dancing, drinking and commiting adultery while worshipping a Golden Calf.

Funny how that is a representation of Paganism/Polytheism/Idoletry... Since Polytheism is the biggest sin agains God according to Judaism... Christianity stems from Judaism and upholds this sin.


That is true, but if one really reads into the word of God and can see past what man wrote into the symbolic message...you can see that God was not angry at anyone...only at the simple fact that people worship idols (idols meaning statues) when infact they should be worshipping the spiritual.

The text and content can be taken many ways. Most Christians take it the way we all know they do.

ancestral_lee
October 3rd, 2005, 10:10 AM
ok, so playing devils advocate here,

why not just be catholic and forget about trying to add into it pagan elements?

how do you feel about the 'thou shalt not suffer a witch' to live and other prohibitions on sorcery etc?

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 11:31 AM
ok, so playing devils advocate here,

why not just be catholic and forget about trying to add into it pagan elements?

how do you feel about the 'thou shalt not suffer a witch' to live and other prohibitions on sorcery etc?

I am Catholic and Pagan at the same time. Religion is having either Catholic, Pagan, Muslim. Faith is your spirituality. I feel the need spiritualy to have both Catholic and Pagan faith in my life. The Catholic religion has a very pagan ring to it at the base...the rest is just political.

The prohibitions on socery, etc are just that...human politics. It goes on in society. One wants to be better then the other so they scare people into a belief. That was not actually in the original manuscripts of the Bible. It was not even worded that way. In the original manuscript ir had the same meaning as 'An ye harm none, Do as ye will.' It was changed later by political Christians to scare people into a set pattern of thought for their own advancement. Kind of like politics here in America.

LadyCelt
October 3rd, 2005, 11:40 AM
I think it originally meant poisoner or said poisoner. It could also mean doing vengance spells and curses/hexes.

Theres
October 3rd, 2005, 11:43 AM
That was not actually in the original manuscripts of the Bible. It was not even worded that way. In the original manuscript ir had the same meaning as 'An ye harm none, Do as ye will.' It was changed later by political Christians to scare people into a set pattern of thought for their own advancement.
i believe the pre-King James translation was "Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live", which is hardly the same thing as the Rede!

LadyCelt
October 3rd, 2005, 11:49 AM
I could be wrong, but I think King James had a beef with witches, so that could be part of it.

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 11:51 AM
i believe the pre-King James translation was "Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live", which is hardly the same thing as the Rede!

There are so many pre-King James translations. There where so many translations because of so many different faiths. Either pre-translation is not wrong or right. It is which translation you choose to keep as your own. Either way...poisoner back then was someone who did not fit into the mainstream Ctaholic political religion. One who used magick and honored gods/goddess not wanted in political Catholisism.

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 11:54 AM
I could be wrong, but I think King James had a beef with witches, so that could be part of it.

King James, as well as most figures in Catholisism had beef with witches. It all comes down to making people believe what you want them to believe. It is not only in King James but also in several other Bibles. The true meaning has several wordings...which one you pick is truely up to you. The original words of the spiritual beings was distorted because in fact human beings wrote it. We all know that we make mistakes in translating and sometimes we put our own spin on what we hear.

Haerfest Leah
October 3rd, 2005, 12:05 PM
I am Catholic and Pagan at the same time. Religion is having either Catholic, Pagan, Muslim. Faith is your spirituality. I feel the need spiritualy to have both Catholic and Pagan faith in my life. The Catholic religion has a very pagan ring to it at the base...the rest is just political.

The prohibitions on socery, etc are just that...human politics. It goes on in society. One wants to be better then the other so they scare people into a belief. That was not actually in the original manuscripts of the Bible. It was not even worded that way. In the original manuscript ir had the same meaning as 'An ye harm none, Do as ye will.' It was changed later by political Christians to scare people into a set pattern of thought for their own advancement. Kind of like politics here in America.

Then in that case just be Pagan. pick one

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 12:19 PM
Then in that case just be Pagan. pick one

Why should I have to pick one? I feel as if most of you have something against me being Catholic and Pagan. It is the same as a Pagan choosing to mix Kemetic and Celtic. Pick one. No, it is how you feel your spirituality should be. I did not post this to be critized for my faith. I posted this to let people see that the two can be blended and my views on my faith. I am not asking which one I should pick...or asking which one fits more into my beliefs.

ancestral_lee
October 3rd, 2005, 12:21 PM
Interpretation of 19 English Translations of Exodus 22:18
According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE.
Various Biblical translations render this verse as:
1.American Standard Version "Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."
2.The Answer: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
3.Amplified Bible: You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
4.Good News Version: Put to death any woman who practices magic.
5.James Moffatt Translation: You shall not allow any sorceress to live.
6.Jerusalem Bible: You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
7.King James Version: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
8.Living Bible: A sorceress shall be put to death.
9.Modern Language Bible: Allow no sorceress to live.
10.New American Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
11.New American Standard Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
12.New Century Version: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
13.New International Version: Do not allow a sorceress to live.
14.New Living Translation: A sorceress must not be allowed to live.
15.New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
16.New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive.
17.The Promise: Contemporary English Version: Death is the punishment for Witchcraft.
18.Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
19.Revised English Bible: You must not allow a witch to live.


you can dress it as much as you like. the original didnt mean poisoner. it meant those who use spells, magick, talk with spirits etc etc ... basically anything that denotes a with or most pagan practices that are common today.


you can go on about politics if you want and say how its ok to ignore that part because it was written by man and not god - well heres the rub, it was all written by man, apparently inspired by god.

you can do the pick-and-mix thing if you want, use what you like (beause god said it not man type of thing) and ignore the stuff that makes your catholic-pagan patha little awkward. do it that way if you want but your credibility goes down the flusher.

sorry if i sound like im pissing on your parade but what you are saying raises all sorts of questions in me and i like to ask questions. if you can sit down and analyse this for yourself and come out content that you arent just being foolish then good for you.

lee

p.s something to think about... i recall a story in the bible where a man of god was mocked by children outside the city gates. he called on god to help him and punish the children, which he promptly did. he sent a she-bear who ripped the children to bits.

ancestral_lee
October 3rd, 2005, 12:28 PM
. It is the same as a Pagan choosing to mix Kemetic and Celtic. .

exactly...another sickness within modern pagan communities is the pick-an-mix ecclecticism which often tends to totally disregard pantheons, cultures and traditions.

it is possible to mix them, but it has to be done respectfully and in a way that doesnt hold shockng clashes... just like indigenous african religions syncreticised catholicism and formed Voodoun etc


. I did not post this to be critized for my faith. I posted this to let people see that the two can be blended and my views on my faith..

the thing is, there are some of us who dont think you have blended them, there are some of us who think that maybe you are trying to mix oil and water. there are some major clashes with your path.

have you thought about trying to chat to a local catholic priest about this? to get the view of someone who really knows catholicism ?

BrigidMoon
October 3rd, 2005, 12:45 PM
It's interesting that see the Christian and Pagan religions mingle with each other.

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 12:54 PM
Interpretation of 19 English Translations of Exodus 22:18
According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE.
Various Biblical translations render this verse as:
1.American Standard Version "Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."
2.The Answer: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
3.Amplified Bible: You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
4.Good News Version: Put to death any woman who practices magic.
5.James Moffatt Translation: You shall not allow any sorceress to live.
6.Jerusalem Bible: You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
7.King James Version: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
8.Living Bible: A sorceress shall be put to death.
9.Modern Language Bible: Allow no sorceress to live.
10.New American Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
11.New American Standard Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
12.New Century Version: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
13.New International Version: Do not allow a sorceress to live.
14.New Living Translation: A sorceress must not be allowed to live.
15.New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
16.New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive.
17.The Promise: Contemporary English Version: Death is the punishment for Witchcraft.
18.Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
19.Revised English Bible: You must not allow a witch to live.


you can dress it as much as you like. the original didnt mean poisoner. it meant those who use spells, magick, talk with spirits etc etc ... basically anything that denotes a with or most pagan practices that are common today.


you can go on about politics if you want and say how its ok to ignore that part because it was written by man and not god - well heres the rub, it was all written by man, apparently inspired by god.

you can do the pick-and-mix thing if you want, use what you like (beause god said it not man type of thing) and ignore the stuff that makes your catholic-pagan patha little awkward. do it that way if you want but your credibility goes down the flusher.

sorry if i sound like im pissing on your parade but what you are saying raises all sorts of questions in me and i like to ask questions. if you can sit down and analyse this for yourself and come out content that you arent just being foolish then good for you.

lee

p.s something to think about... i recall a story in the bible where a man of god was mocked by children outside the city gates. he called on god to help him and punish the children, which he promptly did. he sent a she-bear who ripped the children to bits.

Ok, first...my point with the translation of the bible in referance to you poosting each translation. Put to death any woman who does evil magic...again, this is a way of saying that one should live life right...do what you feel you should be doing but do not harm anyone purpously for karma is a *b word here*.

This is your view and that is fine but do not come at me as if you know it all and you are right. You have your views and I have mine. No one can say mine are right or wrong...just have an opinion about them. Credability? Who says I need credability? My faith doesn't. I believe in what I believe in and no one should bash on something another believes in. Isn't it against Paganism to bash someone else for their belief? What are you doing right now. It is people like you that make paganism look bad because you not only have your view, you nastily push your view on others by poking all this bs at what they believe. Just leave it at that.

LadyCelt
October 3rd, 2005, 12:58 PM
you can dress it as much as you like. the original didnt mean poisoner. it meant those who use spells, magick, talk with spirits etc etc ... basically anything that denotes a with or most pagan practices that are common today.


Ok, but isn't communion sorcery in a way? The wine becomes the blood of Christ, the wafers become the body/flesh of Christ. With Catholocism, it isn't just symbolism but the followers believe this as true when they take communion. How is this differnt from spells and magick? Isn't the priest a witch/sorcerer when they do this?

And, when Saul was confronted by Jesus, was that not the spirit of Christ? When Pentacost happened, didn't the apostles speak with and see the spirit of Christ?

(just learned something new now searching for "penta" and it means 5, as I noticed the same prefix for pentacost and pentacle. Interesting hmmm)


I don't think the person who asked the question is taking their fath and path(s) and spirituality lightly. What is right for me or them may not be right for another.

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 01:00 PM
exactly...another sickness within modern pagan communities is the pick-an-mix ecclecticism which often tends to totally disregard pantheons, cultures and traditions.

it is possible to mix them, but it has to be done respectfully and in a way that doesnt hold shockng clashes... just like indigenous african religions syncreticised catholicism and formed Voodoun etc



the thing is, there are some of us who dont think you have blended them, there are some of us who think that maybe you are trying to mix oil and water. there are some major clashes with your path.

have you thought about trying to chat to a local catholic priest about this? to get the view of someone who really knows catholicism ?

Isn't paganism about finding a path in which you are comfortable? Then some choose to mix-and-match. That should be fine...as long as they can live their life right. It might not seem right to you...but who is to say it is right or wrong? No one.

Shocking clashes? Another form of prejuduce. It may be a shocking clash to you because you do not understand that Catholic and Pagan can be mixed. If you do not understand then ask nicely and I can explaine MY VIEWS...no one elses.

I was born and raised Catholic. Yes, I know my Catholic faith as well as my pagan faith. I went and attended all of my Catholic school religion classes and was even a sodality girl for Mary. I talk to priests even this day. Are you Catholic? Then it should not bother you the way it does. I have my path and that is how I choose to blend it. If it doesn't make sense to you, then so be it, but do not bash me for my belief. I am not bashing you for what you believe so give me the same respect. If you do not want to play nice then do not read what I have to say about my faith.

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 01:03 PM
Ok, but isn't communion sorcery in a way? The wine becomes the blood of Christ, the wafers become the body/flesh of Christ. With Catholocism, it isn't just symbolism but the followers believe this as true when they take communion. How is this differnt from spells and magick? Isn't the priest a witch/sorcerer when they do this?

And, when Saul was confronted by Jesus, was that not the spirit of Christ? When Pentacost happened, didn't the apostles speak with and see the spirit of Christ?

(just learned something new now searching for "penta" and it means 5, as I noticed the same prefix for pentacost and pentacle. Interesting hmmm)


I don't think the person who asked the question is taking their fath and path(s) and spirituality lightly. What is right for me or them may not be right for another.

Exactly. The turning of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ is magick. Some may not believe so. You are also correct...I am with you on that...Jeses appeared to his apostles and it was his Spirit they saw. Same thing as when Diana or Anpu appears to a follower. 5, 40, 3...they are all sacred numbers. There meaning is something I would like to understand more.

ancestral_lee
October 3rd, 2005, 01:04 PM
This is your view and that is fine but do not come at me as if you know it all and you are right. You have your views and I have mine. No one can say mine are right or wrong...just have an opinion about them. Credability? Who says I need credability? My faith doesn't. I believe in what I believe in and no one should bash on something another believes in. Isn't it against Paganism to bash someone else for their belief? What are you doing right now. It is people like you that make paganism look bad because you not only have your view, you nastily push your view on others by poking all this bs at what they believe. Just leave it at that.

im not suggesting i know it all. i dont think i have given that impression. what i am doing is questioning your current way of doing things - which i beleive you wanted people to do or else you wouldnt have started a thread on it - there is a quote which i cannot recall the author of - " the test of a good religion is whather it can stand up to questioning"

thats what i am doing. im questioning what you are saying you beleive, something you are free to do with my beleifs if you wish.

no, there is nothing in paganism that says it is bad to bash other peoples beleifs.

nastily? come off it. besides im not pushing any views on you, im simply questioning what you have posted up here.

as to making paganism look bad, well i could say something about how the people who go about picking and mixing bits and bobs from different sources and stick themgether haphazardly with little thought into what they are doing is making paganism look bad, by making us look like a bunch of fluffy eccelctic new agers who cant let go of christianity yet and so feel the need to try to create a wishy washy hybrid - but i wont go there because some people might get upset.

i would also like to point you to the very first line i posted on the 13th post in this thread.

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 01:09 PM
im not suggesting i know it all. i dont think i have given that impression. what i am doing is questioning your current way of doing things - which i beleive you wanted people to do or else you wouldnt have started a thread on it - there is a quote which i cannot recall the author of - " the test of a good religion is whather it can stand up to questioning"

thats what i am doing. im questioning what you are saying you beleive, something you are free to do with my beleifs if you wish.

no, there is nothing in paganism that says it is bad to bash other peoples beleifs.

nastily? come off it. besides im not pushing any views on you, im simply questioning what you have posted up here.

as to making paganism look bad, well i could say something about how the people who go about picking and mixing bits and bobs from different sources and stick themgether haphazardly with little thought into what they are doing is making paganism look bad, by making us look like a bunch of fluffy eccelctic new agers who cant let go of christianity yet and so feel the need to try to create a wishy washy hybrid - but i wont go there because some people might get upset.

i would also like to point you to the very first line i posted on the 13th post in this thread.

I understand but it is my faith. It is not as if I am starting a whole new path with followers. I should be free to choose as I so wish. Fluffy? Do you not think that I walk a greyer path? There is nothing that says fluffy about Catholic Paganism. The old tesetament for an example...an eye for an eye...a tooth for a tooth. Does that exactly sound fluffy?

ancestral_lee
October 3rd, 2005, 01:11 PM
Are you Catholic? Then it should not bother you the way it does. I have my path and that is how I choose to blend it.I am not bashing you for what you believe so give me the same respect..

i was brought up catholic, went to church every sunday. was an altar boy, did the readings in mass, went to catholic school etc etc blah blah

i suppose that gives me a slight insight into what catholicism is and isnt all about.

what i am suggesting to you is that your system of beleif goes against the grain of mainstream catholicism, unless you want to pick and mix what you take from the bible (which is supposedly the word of god as passed onto man) and ignore the bits you dont like - thats fine, go for it.

ancestral_lee
October 3rd, 2005, 01:13 PM
Fluffy? Do you not think that I walk a greyer path? There is nothing that says fluffy about Catholic Paganism. The old tesetament for an example...an eye for an eye...a tooth for a tooth. Does that exactly sound fluffy?

do you agree with those sentiments? how about the the other ones expressed in the old testament, leviticus etc

LadyCelt
October 3rd, 2005, 01:13 PM
I don't see eclectic as fluffy.

I personally hate the term fluffy. I have been called a cafeteria christian, and it hurts. I feel the same is true if people are called fluffy bunnies.


Say somebody wants to worship Nut on Monday, Artemis Tuesday, Gaia Wednesday, Amon Ra Thursday, Danu Friday, Rhiannon Saturday, and Godde Sunday. Ok, its their right, their path, their spirituality. It doesn't make it fluffy.

I don't believe the thread started ever gave them impression they weren't well researched. I belive their first post was very intelligent and original.

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 01:19 PM
do you agree with those sentiments? how about the the other ones expressed in the old testament, leviticus etc

Yes, I agree with these sentiments but only when the time calls. If someone murdered my child...of course I would want to see them suffer. They are ment to be taken as a guideline for how one should act when dealing with society. That is my view on them. As far as the rest, I will have to think about it before I write my next answer because I have to have play time with my children.

raven grimassi
October 3rd, 2005, 01:41 PM
you can dress it as much as you like. the original didnt mean poisoner. it meant those who use spells, magick, talk with spirits etc etc ... basically anything that denotes a with or most pagan practices that are common today.

The subject is a bit complex and difficult to fully unravel. There is some debate regarding the Hebrew word (casaph or a derivative form) which was eventually taken to mean Witch. One of the problems is with the Greek translation that followed the original Hebrew text. The translators used the Greek word pharmakeus, which means one who uses herbal extracts. It appears that this is the source of the connection to poisoner, which some point to in the meaning of the text.

In an attempt to tackle the subject we can look at the Hebrew culture during the Old Testament period. The Hebrew figure of the Witch (if one can actually use the term here) is a person with a familiar spirit, a medium. This person is called an Ob, a term used for the Witch of Endor (but not used in Exodus). An Ob is essentially a person who channels (to use the modern term). This often employed the use of an herbal extract, which altered the consciousness. An Ob was also feared because she could use potions to "poison" the minds of other people (literally to use herbal potions that affected the mind). And here again is the pharmakeus connection.

The Hebrew word casaph, used in Exodus (Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live) has several meanings, one of which refers to a person who uses potions for spells. This is apparently why the Greek word pharmakeus was used as the translation of the Hebrew word casaph. One of the problems is that casaph can also indicate a person who assassinates by using poison potions. Kings lived in fear of being poisoned, and so strict laws were established against people with the knowledge and ability to create poison.

The earliest word used in Western literature to denote a Witch is the Greek word pharmakis, which literally means an herbalist. Witches were called the pharmakuetes, the herbalists or plant people. But I personally feel that the so-called Hebrew Witch is a different character than the European Witch. Unfortunately the equating of the two led to the death of many Europeans accused of practicing Witchcraft.

But the earliest depictions of the Witch figure in Europe show us such figures as Medea who is described as a powerful Witch and a priestess of the goddess Hecate. She uses a wand, a cauldron, and an altar, and evokes several deities. This seems to be a different character than the Hebrew figure, the Ob or the Casaph.

LadyCelt
October 3rd, 2005, 01:58 PM
^^^^^^ you should be a professor and/or write books, wow!

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 02:46 PM
The subject is a bit complex and difficult to fully unravel. There is some debate regarding the Hebrew word (casaph or a derivative form) which was eventually taken to mean Witch. One of the problems is with the Greek translation that followed the original Hebrew text. The translators used the Greek word pharmakeus, which means one who uses herbal extracts. It appears that this is the source of the connection to poisoner, which some point to in the meaning of the text.

In an attempt to tackle the subject we can look at the Hebrew culture during the Old Testament period. The Hebrew figure of the Witch (if one can actually use the term here) is a person with a familiar spirit, a medium. This person is called an Ob, a term used for the Witch of Endor (but not used in Exodus). An Ob is essentially a person who channels (to use the modern term). This often employed the use of an herbal extract, which altered the consciousness. An Ob was also feared because she could use potions to "poison" the minds of other people (literally to use herbal potions that affected the mind). And here again is the pharmakeus connection.

The Hebrew word casaph, used in Exodus (Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live) has several meanings, one of which refers to a person who uses potions for spells. This is apparently why the Greek word pharmakeus was used as the translation of the Hebrew word casaph. One of the problems is that casaph can also indicate a person who assassinates by using poison potions. Kings lived in fear of being poisoned, and so strict laws were established against people with the knowledge and ability to create poison.

The earliest word used in Western literature to denote a Witch is the Greek word pharmakis, which literally means an herbalist. Witches were called the pharmakuetes, the herbalists or plant people. But I personally feel that the so-called Hebrew Witch is a different character than the European Witch. Unfortunately the equating of the two led to the death of many Europeans accused of practicing Witchcraft.

But the earliest depictions of the Witch figure in Europe show us such figures as Medea who is described as a powerful Witch and a priestess of the goddess Hecate. She uses a wand, a cauldron, and an altar, and evokes several deities. This seems to be a different character than the Hebrew figure, the Ob or the Casaph.

Very good point...and true. Like LadyCelt said...you should be a professor or at least write books...or maybe a an article on this subject.

ancestral_lee
October 3rd, 2005, 02:51 PM
:awilly:

do a google search for the name 'raven grimassi', or even goto http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=69 (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=69)

fifth forum down

never mind Raven , some of us have heard of you

lee

Catiana
October 3rd, 2005, 02:52 PM
:awilly:

do a google search for the name 'raven grimassi', or even goto http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=69 (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=69)

fifth forum down

never mind Raven , some of us have heard of you

lee


You beat me to it :)

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 03:04 PM
I apologize. I have not heard of you before. Well, I have but I didn't put 2 and 2 together.

raven grimassi
October 3rd, 2005, 03:37 PM
never mind Raven , some of us have heard of you


No worries, I do not have an ego investment here, I just do what I do.

I guess it is funny, because some people who do not know me as an author think I should write books, and some people who do know me as an author wish that I did not write anything, so it all equals out. ;)


I apologize. I have not heard of you before. Well, I have but I didn't put 2 and 2 together.

No need to apologize, I am not offended. If you are interested in more about what I posted, I deal with it in my book The Witches' Craft.

Seamus Donn
October 3rd, 2005, 05:09 PM
Catholicism and Paganism? Thats like mixing oil and water. It just want mix. It doesn't matter what the hebrew or greek word for witch is. Modern Christians have their own definition and are notorious for not listening to reason. Heres something i'm wondering about. When you go to confession to confess your sins do you confess to being a pagan as well since it would be considered a sin?

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 05:51 PM
Catholicism and Paganism? Thats like mixing oil and water. It just want mix. It doesn't matter what the hebrew or greek word for witch is. Modern Christians have their own definition and are notorious for not listening to reason. Heres something i'm wondering about. When you go to confession to confess your sins do you confess to being a pagan as well since it would be considered a sin?

I do not go to a Catholic church to confess my wrong. One does not need a church. This is what I mean. I confess my wrongs straight to my gods and goddess. You are all looking at it from either a strictly pagan side or a strictly Catholic side. The priest is not a god or goddess. The people who are within the holy orders are only there to assist those in a said path, but the are accostumed to making mistakes. The Catholic priest where I had my boys baptisied knew I am a Catholic Pagan.Anyways, who says being pagan is wrong in the Catholic religion? Not god. People put the words in gods mouth. Even if I did go in to confess my sins...paganism is not a sin, it is a spirituality. Why should I let another human judge what is right or wrong.

ancestral_lee
October 3rd, 2005, 06:30 PM
can i ask then, what specifically catholic aspects do you go with?

if you dont do the confession thing, then how about holy communion?

what are your views on safe sex and sex before marriage?


lee

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 06:42 PM
I have posted most of the Catholic aspects I keep in my first post. I do confession...just not with another human being able to judge me. Catholics have prayers and a confession rite that one can pray without a priest. Do you need a priest or priestess to tell you you are forgiven? I have also kept Catholic holy days...honoring the nativity, lent, advent, christmas (yule), veneration of Mary, etc. I accept all of the Catholic rituals and ceremonies and the teachings that are not clouded by mainstream Catholic church polotics.

I do receive holy communion. It is not taboo to recieve holy communion as long as Jesus is one of your deities. All communion is...is a way to connect yourself with your deity at a higher level...kind of like cakes and ale.

My views on safe sex and sex before marriage?

Safe sex is essential to the health of our society. If one chooses to have sex, one should at least find out ways to protect themself against any possible health hazard or pregnancy.

Sex before marriage. It is not wrong, but if you are looking at it from an emotional stand point it can cause some problems. I had sex before marriage so who am I to judge someone else for doing it...but I wish I had not. Why? In my opinion sex is sacred. You are giving up a part of yourself that you can never have back...that is virginity. Why not give your virginity to the right person...not the right now person. That is just my view.

equinox2
October 3rd, 2005, 08:36 PM
Cyzarine Wrote:


One does not need a church.

Well, I agree. But Catholic doctrine is quite clear that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church, except in cases of "extreme ignorance", such as someone who has never heard of the Catholic church. I think you have.



Anyways, who says being pagan is wrong in the Catholic religion?

Um, the Catholic church, the vatican.



Not god.

Yes, God. According to Catholic Doctrine, the pope speaks the will of God. So yes, if you are Catholic, then God indeed says that being Pagan is a sin - not to mention the clear dictates in the Bible. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of something that is repeated more often in the Bible. It certainly says that other religions are wrong more than it says God is kind, and more than it even says Jesus is lord.


paganism is not a sin, it is a spirituality.

Again, I agree with you, but both the Catholic church and the Bible don't.

Having been raised Catholic, read and studied the whole Bible, and reading your posts on this thread, I have to say that your beliefs are often the opposite of Catholicism and the Bible. I don't have an issue with your beliefs - in fact, I love paganism and all the ritual, candles, and incense in Catholicism. I guess I'm not sure why you want to hold onto the name "Catholic", when your beliefs are anything but Catholic, especially on the central points of Catholicism.

Anyway, I don't want to come across as harsh. Your spirituality is your own thing to choose, and you have crafted a nice spirituality. Much more kind, loving and sensible than many in today's world.

Take care-

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 08:47 PM
Well, I agree. But Catholic doctrine is quite clear that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church, except in cases of "extreme ignorance", such as someone who has never heard of the Catholic church. I think you have.

Catholic doctrine is written by man. Man is not to be honored so highley as to say that they do not write what would suit them.





Um, the Catholic church, the vatican.

Who makes up the vatican and the Catholic church? Human beings...religious political nuts who made gods word into their own words my rewriting things to their liking.





Yes, God. According to Catholic Doctrine, the pope speaks the will of God. So yes, if you are Catholic, then God indeed says that being Pagan is a sin - not to mention the clear dictates in the Bible. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of something that is repeated more often in the Bible. It certainly says that other religions are wrong more than it says God is kind, and more than it even says Jesus is lord.

You are forgetting that people where the ones who said Paganism was a sin for the simple fact that Paganism was the major religion. It was all a political undertaking to cast fear into those that chose otherwise. How do we know that God said Paganism is a sin? Because man wrote so? Humans write all sorts of things...truth and lies. One has to read the bible from a certain stand point and decide what man wrote for their own gain and what is actually the word of the spiritual. There are several lost books as well, so therefore we know that Catholic politic changes a lot.


Having been raised Catholic, read and studied the whole Bible, and reading your posts on this thread, I have to say that your beliefs are often the opposite of Catholicism and the Bible. I don't have an issue with your beliefs - in fact, I love paganism and all the ritual, candles, and incense in Catholicism. I guess I'm not sure why you want to hold onto the name "Catholic", when your beliefs are anything but Catholic, especially on the central points of Catholicism.

I decided to hold onto the name Catholic because that is where I pull some of my beliefs from. Most central point of Cathoicism are written and word of man...not god.


Anyway, I don't want to come across as harsh. Your spirituality is your own thing to choose, and you have crafted a nice spirituality. Much more kind, loving and sensible than many in today's world.

Take care

No harshness taken. A lot of people have questioned my belief. It would seen questionable if looked at from the outside. You take care as well.

Seamus Donn
October 3rd, 2005, 10:53 PM
A polytheistic christian is a contradiction of terms. Oil and waterjust want mix. One path requires that you trivialize the other or erradicate it. Changing and mixing everything up to suit ones needs is just making both paths less. Its one of the reson i hate calling myself a pagan. To much ecclectic bull goin on. A person has the right to believe whichever way they want. I'll defend that right to the death but man..........

Cyzarine
October 3rd, 2005, 11:07 PM
A polytheistic christian is a contradiction of terms. Oil and waterjust want mix. One path requires that you trivialize the other or erradicate it. Changing and mixing everything up to suit ones needs is just making both paths less. Its one of the reson i hate calling myself a pagan. To much ecclectic bull goin on. A person has the right to believe whichever way they want. I'll defend that right to the death but man..........

It is a right to believe what you chose. It is my right to choce an eclectic path such as I have. It may not mix to you or to many for that matter...but it does for me. Christian religion requires that you trivialize the other or erradicate another religion because of the people running the whole thing. Does anyone know what God truely thinks? Should it matter what rules Christian leaders put up? No. People tend to follow the leader and not thinkoutside the box. I am different. I think of all the possabilities. If God gave us free will he wanted us to do as we wish but not to harm each other.

Seamus Donn
October 3rd, 2005, 11:31 PM
That still doesn't sound christian but it does sound very neo-wiccan. Christianity is a monotheistic religion and depending on what type of pagan religion or path you are following most are polytheistic. Nevermind the hebrew words about the commandment" thou shalt have no other gods before me" This isn't Judaism. Its Christianity and its saying there is only one God not there is only one god but...... Its totally intolerant of other religions. If the church had the power it wanted today there would still be witches burning at the stake and everyone would be christian or dead. Thats what its about. They believe that god wrote the bible through men and aint nobody gonna convince them otherwise. Thats a dangerous crowd to be hangin with if you're not one of em.

LadyCelt
October 4th, 2005, 01:09 AM
I found another similarity. It is called sanctified water, and I think its blessed by a high priestess:

http://paethieon.com/portal/modules.php?op=modload&name=CCart&id=11 (http://paethieon.com/portal/modules.php?op=modload&name=CCart&id=11)

BlackMagicalCat
October 4th, 2005, 02:02 AM
Sometimes it seems to me,that a person who loves the Lord,as I do,we want to walk the path of magic,it has a draw on some of us at times.The supernatural,and the mysitical,we want to break free,and explore the magical side of things.I know many christians who believe in magic more than most pagans do.Many pagans dont believe in magic,some do,some dont.

The scriptures are clear about witchcraft,sorcery,divination,and magic,and the observing of times,and so on.But we somehow justify our choice,to walk the pagan path,but cant let go of the Christianity that is imbedded in our hearts.

Some of us are lured by the unseen, and even the dark side of the spirit world,which by the way,most christians already believe in,and many pagans do not.We want to practice magic for ourselfs,and not have to ask God for any favors,Let me use my own abilities,and my own power,to better myself,I dont want to have to ask God ,and petition him for help,I want to do it myself.

Christianity becomes boring to some,it doesnt satisfy the thirst for magic in some,and becomes to confining.Some dont want to be stuck into a shell,of does and donts,we want to be free,to follow our hearts,and explore.

But for those who have walked with God,and have known the gentle voice of the Lord,to those who felt his loving presence inside them,thier consience crys out,what are you doing?It is hard to mix Christ,who died for us all,to save us from hell,with any other religion or faith.

When tried,it doesnt make the person who tries it look to good,and when questioned by those who are well informed,it never stands up to scrutiny,as we can see on this thread here.

It looks to me like a real pagan,ripped a pagan wannabe,to shreads.A witch rebuked a christian,and told him,choose Christ,or paganism,but not both.

I am a christian,and I love the Lord,but believe A Goddess sent me my black cat.I read about a woman who is a tree of life to those who lay hold on her,in the bible.I also love and practice magic,and some basic candle magic.

So I know what it is like to struggle between the two.Im not sure where my path is leading,but I asked the Lord to walk with me,and he hasnt left me yet.I also see in pagans a lot of love and respect,and have a hard time seeing witches and witchcraft as evil.even though I know what the bible says about it.Maybe im being decieved,maybe one day God will rebuke me,and punish me for going astray,he has been known for doing that to his own,and I belong to him,and always will.

I pray to the Goddess from time to time,and It gets easier the more I do it.

Thankyou Ancestral Lee,for your posts here,they were very good,and you are well informed,and sounded respectfull as well.You should always have the right to question anyone who says they are a Christian.And you did an excellent job here.

RubyRose
October 4th, 2005, 05:02 AM
Cyzarine,
Nice thread, makes you think. :D

On the whole, Catholicism and Paganism are like oil and water to eachother, I don't solely agree with that, I mean, if there can be Christian Witches out there in the world, why not Catholic Pagans? After all Catholicism, is just another branch that falls under Christianity isn't it?

ancestral_lee
October 4th, 2005, 05:18 AM
Thankyou Ancestral Lee,for your posts here,they were very good,and you are well informed,and sounded respectfull as well.You should always have the right to question anyone who says they are a Christian.And you did an excellent job here.

not a problem. thanks for your post too, its interesting to see someone who is 'struggling' (for want of a better word) to try to mix the two paths and is willing to admit it is difficult and that they might not be compatible.

i hope you find your balance


lee

ancestral_lee
October 4th, 2005, 05:23 AM
, I mean, if there can be Christian Witches out there in the world, why not Catholic Pagans? After all Catholicism, is just another branch that falls under Christianity isn't it?

hiya rubyrose,

witchcraft is a skill, a practice. you can use witchcraft within just about any religous system (though whther aformentioned system allows it or forbids it is another matter) so yes a christian witch or cunningman is possible, most cunningmen back inthe 18th century in england were probably christian.

catholicism is a religion, 'paganism' is a religion of some form (depending on what type of pagan you describe yourself).

try to imagine a Jewish Muslim or a Satanic Hindu. that is trying to take two separate religions and mix them./ the problem arises when you have the abrahamic faiths which tecnd to be exclusivly monotheistic and forbid honouring or worship of other gods.

lee

dark witch
October 4th, 2005, 06:03 AM
Ok, first...my point with the translation of the bible in referance to you poosting each translation. Put to death any woman who does evil magic...again, this is a way of saying that one should live life right...do what you feel you should be doing but do not harm anyone purpously for karma is a *b word here*.

This is your view and that is fine but do not come at me as if you know it all and you are right. You have your views and I have mine. No one can say mine are right or wrong...just have an opinion about them. Credability? Who says I need credability? My faith doesn't. I believe in what I believe in and no one should bash on something another believes in. Isn't it against Paganism to bash someone else for their belief? What are you doing right now. It is people like you that make paganism look bad because you not only have your view, you nastily push your view on others by poking all this bs at what they believe. Just leave it at that.

Cyzarine, the thing is, that you posted the topic in the first place, so it opens it up to scrutiny. I am really starting to wonder if any of the "christian witches" or "catholic witches" have read any of the history of Paganism. The last I read, the Christians did their best to stomp out Paganism in the name of Christ. Pagan=Heathen???? IMHO you folks are just pulling out the "best" parts of religions/paths, and making up something that was never meant to be. Seriously Cyzarine, go talk to a Catholic priest and tell him your thoughts. He'll probably jump away so not to get hit by the lightning bolt that he is sure to think is going to hit you.

The term eclectic seems to get very abused these days. It's one thing to be a Pagan and borrow bits and pieces from other Pagan paths. It's something entirely different to pick and choose beliefs from diametrically opposed belief systems. If you want to do that in your head, I guess that's ok, but don't be surprised when that "belief system" is challenged when you want to tout your new invention to Pagans.

When I see the blending of Judea-Christian beliefs and Paganism I always think "safety net". I think that is what bothers many Pagans. Pagans put their lives and trust into a belief system void of Judea-Christian dogma. It's hard for me, being a Pagan to have a discussion with someone who wants to take part of my belief system, but then have the ultimate belief that if I don't believe in Jesus Christ as saviour, I will go to Hell.

And if you don't have that last belief, why would you hang onto the Christian/Catholic faith?

Dark Witch

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 08:20 AM
That still doesn't sound christian but it does sound very neo-wiccan. Christianity is a monotheistic religion and depending on what type of pagan religion or path you are following most are polytheistic. Nevermind the hebrew words about the commandment" thou shalt have no other gods before me" This isn't Judaism. Its Christianity and its saying there is only one God not there is only one god but...... Its totally intolerant of other religions. If the church had the power it wanted today there would still be witches burning at the stake and everyone would be christian or dead. Thats what its about. They believe that god wrote the bible through men and aint nobody gonna convince them otherwise. Thats a dangerous crowd to be hangin with if you're not one of em.

You are forgetting one main thing...who makes up the church...man! Do you listen to everything another person has to say about your faith? The teachings of christ and the bible are clouded with lies by MAN to fit his politics. I am Catholic, I just don't let what another human being has to say cloud who I am and the way I chose to worship. As well, if you are an Egyptian Pagan you pull from the Egyptian pantheon, right? I am a Catholic pagan because I pull from the Catholic pantheon. Most of the ones who had witches burning at the stake where puratins. Catholic, at that time (at least the majority) where still in Europe trying to elect their new political church guy. That is why the Catholic religion seems so mean and nasty...because of the people said to rule the church...not God. I don't hang with Catholics that do not see eye to eye with me. Most catholics I can get along with.

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 08:25 AM
Sometimes it seems to me,that a person who loves the Lord,as I do,we want to walk the path of magic,it has a draw on some of us at times.The supernatural,and the mysitical,we want to break free,and explore the magical side of things.I know many christians who believe in magic more than most pagans do.Many pagans dont believe in magic,some do,some dont.

The scriptures are clear about witchcraft,sorcery,divination,and magic,and the observing of times,and so on.But we somehow justify our choice,to walk the pagan path,but cant let go of the Christianity that is imbedded in our hearts.

Some of us are lured by the unseen, and even the dark side of the spirit world,which by the way,most christians already believe in,and many pagans do not.We want to practice magic for ourselfs,and not have to ask God for any favors,Let me use my own abilities,and my own power,to better myself,I dont want to have to ask God ,and petition him for help,I want to do it myself.

Christianity becomes boring to some,it doesnt satisfy the thirst for magic in some,and becomes to confining.Some dont want to be stuck into a shell,of does and donts,we want to be free,to follow our hearts,and explore.

But for those who have walked with God,and have known the gentle voice of the Lord,to those who felt his loving presence inside them,thier consience crys out,what are you doing?It is hard to mix Christ,who died for us all,to save us from hell,with any other religion or faith.

When tried,it doesnt make the person who tries it look to good,and when questioned by those who are well informed,it never stands up to scrutiny,as we can see on this thread here.

It looks to me like a real pagan,ripped a pagan wannabe,to shreads.A witch rebuked a christian,and told him,choose Christ,or paganism,but not both.

I am a christian,and I love the Lord,but believe A Goddess sent me my black cat.I read about a woman who is a tree of life to those who lay hold on her,in the bible.I also love and practice magic,and some basic candle magic.

So I know what it is like to struggle between the two.Im not sure where my path is leading,but I asked the Lord to walk with me,and he hasnt left me yet.I also see in pagans a lot of love and respect,and have a hard time seeing witches and witchcraft as evil.even though I know what the bible says about it.Maybe im being decieved,maybe one day God will rebuke me,and punish me for going astray,he has been known for doing that to his own,and I belong to him,and always will.

I pray to the Goddess from time to time,and It gets easier the more I do it.

Thankyou Ancestral Lee,for your posts here,they were very good,and you are well informed,and sounded respectfull as well.You should always have the right to question anyone who says they are a Christian.And you did an excellent job here.


So you are telling me that I cannot have my spirituality. What a bunch of morally wrong people you are. Of all people you should be the ones happy that someone found a spiritual path. Guess most of you are still stuck on Christianity...that's why it is so hard for you to believe you can mix the two. Nobody cut me to shreads...I'm still going to honor who I honor and believe what I believe...wether right or wrong...just as most of you. I am very well informed on paganism...I was a full kemetic pagan until I felt no connection with the pantheon anymore.

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 08:29 AM
And if you don't have that last belief, why would you hang onto the Christian/Catholic faith?

I still hang on because man was the one who said you will go to hell...not God. Is there something you are not understanding about this. If a man came up to you...a high priest...and said your god/goddess is angry at people and will send all who do not believe in him/her to the pits of some horrible place (the pun of hell not intended) would you believe this man because the god/goddess works through him? Or would you abandon your faith because of it? Do you really know the god/goddess said such?

ancestral_lee
October 4th, 2005, 08:30 AM
the thing is you keep saying that the bible and the church are mans creations, but didnt jesus say to st peter i think it was or st paul, build my church on earth and what you say on earth i will make it in heaven?

you keep saying you disregard certain parts of the bible because they were written by man, well all of the bible was written by man.

if the only part of catholicism you accept is that there is a god, his son jesus and mary - then really there is little justification for using the term catholic - you might aswell call yourself christo-pagan.


lee

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 08:40 AM
the thing is you keep saying that the bible and the church are mans creations, but didnt jesus say to st peter i think it was or st paul, build my church on earth and what you say on earth i will make it in heaven?

you keep saying you disregard certain parts of the bible because they were written by man, well all of the bible was written by man.

if the only part of catholicism you accept is that there is a god, his son jesus and mary - then really there is little justification for using the term catholic - you might aswell call yourself christo-pagan.


lee

I can see your point...but as well who is to say that peter or paul did not make up a little white lie to get what they wanted. There is no such thing as a truely holy person. I diregard the parts of the bible that contradict with my own belief. Do you not do that with your faith? I use Catholic because plain christians have no rituals and have no ritualistic value. Baptist...no ritualistc value...Luthren...no ritualistic value...the only other ritualistic value comes from Byzantine - Ukrainian church...which I belong to...and it is a Catholic church. My priest does not seem to care that I hold paganism as my right. He is married and acts the same as a priest from a pagan temple. Maybe our church is different then the ones everyone here has known. Roman Catholics would not even touch our marriage or bapitse our children because of me being Byzantine Catholics...which have a close relationship with Greek Orthodox.

dark witch
October 4th, 2005, 08:42 AM
I still hang on because man was the one who said you will go to hell...not God. Is there something you are not understanding about this. If a man came up to you...a high priest...and said your god/goddess is angry at people and will send all who do not believe in him/her to the pits of some horrible place (the pun of hell not intended) would you believe this man because the god/goddess works through him? Or would you abandon your faith because of it? Do you really know the god/goddess said such?

That is one juicy rationalization. Technically man wrote everything. How do you pick and choose what part of what man wrote to believe?? Some of it is holy, some not? C'mon.

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 08:47 AM
That is one juicy rationalization. Technically man wrote everything. How do you pick and choose what part of what man wrote to believe?? Some of it is holy, some not? C'mon.

I chose what I want to...point blank and simple. WHAT I WANT TO!

dark witch
October 4th, 2005, 08:50 AM
I chose what I want to...point blank and simple. WHAT I WANT TO!

And I stand behind your right to do so. My original point was that you can't post what you have pieced together as a religion on a Pagan forum, then not expect some scrutiny from anyone, or be offended by that scrutiny.

Dark Witch

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 09:23 AM
For the person who earlier stated that I could be a Christian Pagan and not a Catholic Pagan...here is something for you:

Catholic is not a religion...Christianity is...Catholic is a denomination.

If one cannot be a Catholic pagan then one cannot be a christian pagan...bs...it's how you look at it.

http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/major.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

I really have a feeling that most of you are saying it is ok for me to be a christian pagan and not a catholic pagan because of catholic dogma that you seem to have a limited understanding of. All christian denominations have heaven and hell...jesus as savior...everything a catholic does. Catholics have just been loud spoken compared to the soft spoken denominations.

As far as talking to a catholic priest about my choice...do you talk to someone of your faith about your choice? As well, I could not go into any christian place and talk to someone who is in charge and tell them I was pagan.

You all just have a double standard. It's ok for you to scrytinize me for what I believe but If I had did that to you you would still scrutinize me for doing that to you.

ancestral_lee
October 4th, 2005, 09:33 AM
For the person who earlier stated that I could be a Christian Pagan and not a Catholic Pagan...here is something for you:

Catholic is not a religion...Christianity is...Catholic is a denomination.

If one cannot be a Catholic pagan then one cannot be a christian pagan...bs...it's how you look at it.

http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/major.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

I really have a feeling that most of you are saying it is ok for me to be a christian pagan and not a catholic pagan because of catholic dogma that you seem to have a limited understanding of. All christian denominations have heaven and hell...jesus as savior...everything a catholic does. Catholics have just been loud spoken compared to the soft spoken denominations.

As far as talking to a catholic priest about my choice...do you talk to someone of your faith about your choice? As well, I could not go into any christian place and talk to someone who is in charge and tell them I was pagan.

You all just have a double standard. It's ok for you to scrytinize me for what I believe but If I had did that to you you would still scrutinize me for doing that to you.

i beleive i said you would be better of calling yourself a christo-pagan rather than a catholic-pagan as you seem to disregard catholic doctrine therefore a more general christain term is apporpriate. as to the validity of the term christo-pagan, well thats a whole other discussion.

yes, i regularly talk to people of my faith about my choices - hence i post here amongst other sites.

as for double standards - i have already said, i am more than happy for you to scrutinize my beleifs.

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 09:34 AM
i beleive i said you would be better of calling yourself a christo-pagan rather than a catholic-pagan as you seem to disregard catholic doctrine therefore a more general christain term is apporpriate. as to the validity of the term christo-pagan, well thats a whole other discussion.

yes, i regularly talk to people of my faith about my choices - hence i post here amongst other sites.

as for double standards - i have already said, i am more than happy for you to scrutinize my beleifs.

I was not talking of you when I was talking about scrutinizing. It is one thing to question anothers belief but when it goes as far as being nasty about anothers belief I find that wrong.

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 10:11 AM
Ok, here is my logic...I wanted to clear somethings up so no one has their pantie in a bunch...neither me or anyone else. This thread has seemed to be something wild...which I did not intend. You can call me a Christo Pagan...that I am...but I call myself a Catholic pagan, not for my belief in sharing the views of most Catholics...but for the fact that I pull most of my rituals/novenas, prayers (rosary, blessings, exorsism, etc), scraments, etc from the Catholic faith. There for I call myself a Catjolic Pagan. It may be wrong of me to call myself such...but it is just a name. I do not mean any offense to pagans for having that name...it just feels like the right name for me. That is what should metter most, right? That I am happy with my path. I do not know any other Christian path with as much ritualistic form as a Catholic path...therefore I can be considered Catholic...but my views are pagan. That is what I was trying to post about. Names to me mean nothing. I call myself a Catholic pagan because I am pagan and I pull stuff from the Catholic faith. That is all.

EponaCapaill
October 4th, 2005, 10:14 AM
Good morning. I am Catholic (a struggling one) and I am unable to completely mix paganism into my path. However, I do believe that paganism is a valid path.

What I am about to say is a very un-Catholic thing to say, and it is one of the things that I am struggling with on my path.

I believe that all Gods are manifestations of one higher power. I choose to honor that higher power from the Catholic perspective.

The Judea-Christian God is my God.

I belive in the Trinity, though I am exploring the Gnostic 4 part Godhead, which I may decide is closer to what I believe.

I am not sure that I believe the Blessed Mother is a goddess. I do honor her and Mary Magdalene as spiritual guides though.

I don't agree with the prohibition against birth control, in today's world, the rhythm method is not enough, many families cannot afford to have more than 1 or 2 children. The size of many Catholic families is enough to show that it is not a completely reliable method.

Personally I am against abortion. BUT, I do not think that it should be made illegal. I would rather that women had safe abortions than put their lives at risk for a pregnancy the would be detrimental (in whatever way, physical, emotional, monetarily) to the mother. I don't however believe that it should be used as a means of birth control. Also, not all religions have the same view on abortion, who am I to force my morality on other people?


I have been told that my beliefs are contrary to being Catholic. I agree. I am not sure what I am anymore. I have also been told that Catholics aren't really Christian, they are really pagans because they worship the Saints (which is untrue, Catholics do not worship the Saints, they call on them for intercession with God. It is different than worship.)

My perception of your posts Cyzarine, is that you approach your Catholic faith from a pagan perspective. It's cool with me, what ever your path is.

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 10:23 AM
Good morning. I am Catholic (a struggling one) and I am unable to completely mix paganism into my path. However, I do believe that paganism is a valid path.

What I am about to say is a very un-Catholic thing to say, and it is one of the things that I am struggling with on my path.

I believe that all Gods are manifestations of one higher power. I choose to honor that higher power from the Catholic perspective.

The Judea-Christian God is my God.

I belive in the Trinity, though I am exploring the Gnostic 4 part Godhead, which I may decide is closer to what I believe.

I am not sure that I believe the Blessed Mother is a goddess. I do honor her and Mary Magdalene as spiritual guides though.

I don't agree with the prohibition against birth control, in today's world, the rhythm method is not enough, many families cannot afford to have more than 1 or 2 children. The size of many Catholic families is enough to show that it is not a completely reliable method.

Personally I am against abortion. BUT, I do not think that it should be made illegal. I would rather that women had safe abortions than put their lives at risk for a pregnancy the would be detrimental (in whatever way, physical, emotional, monetarily) to the mother. I don't however believe that it should be used as a means of birth control. Also, not all religions have the same view on abortion, who am I to force my morality on other people?


I have been told that my beliefs are contrary to being Catholic. I agree. I am not sure what I am anymore. I have also been told that Catholics aren't really Christian, they are really pagans because they worship the Saints (which is untrue, Catholics do not worship the Saints, they call on them for intercession with God. It is different than worship.)

My perception of your posts Cyzarine, is that you approach your Catholic faith from a pagan perspective. It's cool with me, what ever your path is.

Thank you for being understanding. I also use the trinity...father, son, spirit. That is a big celtic symbol as well. I don't know if the culdees used it or not. Not many can affor to have big families. I can barely take care of myself after making sure my boys have what they need...but if we happen to have anymore they will be a blessing even if it becomes even harder for us. I am against abortion as well, for personal reasons. I feel that adoption is a much better option...but this all coming from someone who could not disect in biology class. No, it should not be made illegal. Exactly...one should not force their views on anyone else. Everyone has their own views and if it works for them and does not do harm to another...then so be it. I do believe that Catholics view the Saints as deities. But my view on that is something different then most. If you would like me to explain you can ask.

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 12:02 PM
What I am about to post is my view. By posting this I am not insulting anyone...it's just my opinion.

I feel that a few of the people who have posted that they have a problem with my path where one Catholic themselves. I feel that these people do not feel the two can mix because they still deep down somewhere in their unconscouis body feel that if the Catholic doctrine is true then mixing the two would be a very bad sin. This is just my take on things. Why I feel this way is because everyone of these people have stated about sin somewhere in their posts.

This is hopefully my last post because this subject has gotten rather touchy to some people.

ancestral_lee
October 4th, 2005, 12:15 PM
What I am about to post is my view. By posting this I am not insulting anyone...it's just my opinion.

I feel that a few of the people who have posted that they have a problem with my path where one Catholic themselves. I feel that these people do not feel the two can mix because they still deep down somewhere in their unconscouis body feel that if the Catholic doctrine is true then mixing the two would be a very bad sin. This is just my take on things. Why I feel this way is because everyone of these people have stated about sin somewhere in their posts.

This is hopefully my last post because this subject has gotten rather touchy to some people.

oh please... give me a break. i gave up on catholicism 14 years ago, it holds nothing for me.

it may be your take but i say it is ill informed and incorrect (no offence eh)

Cyzarine
October 4th, 2005, 12:39 PM
oh please... give me a break. i gave up on catholicism 14 years ago, it holds nothing for me.

it may be your take but i say it is ill informed and incorrect (no offence eh)

Again, I am not refering to you but to those that insted of questioning deciede to bash.

LadyCelt
October 4th, 2005, 01:09 PM
I do believe that Catholics view the Saints as deities.


I absolutely believe this one!

With it, I feel it goes against the commandments of no other God if they do this. And, with idols, there are icons and statues and chaplets of saints. I haven't prayed to St. Therese, but I have a chaplet with a relic of her, her book Story of a Soul, and have thought of a tiny statue. But, when I do that, I will probably get one of Artemis too. Once I get a statue of a saint, I could get one of another deity. That would mean I've stopped considering that commandment that way with idols if that makes sense. I have never prayed ot Artemis either. There are freakin feast days for saints. People pray to saints. Sometimes people pray to saints instead of the Lord. Anyone who prays to a saint, has a statue of a saint etc, cannot possibly criticize a pagan or a wiccan for statues of other deities or praying to them or rituals for them. It defeats all logic. I have nothing against Catholics or anyone who does this. What one does, as long as I odn't see it as literally dangerous, to me I'll let them be. If it is dangerous, I may at least try to tell them to be careful.


I dont know aobut the 4way with gnostic, may check it out. Maybe it means Mary Magdelene, our Fath, Jesus, and virgin Mary.

I believe in Catholocism, Virgin Mary is placed as a deity. And, with statue idols, ok plenty of her in their shrines. I have nothing against that, its their path, their choice. But, it is an idol. Praying to anyone or a satue of anyone but of the holy tirinity to me goes back to the idols and other gods commandments.


I also have a very spiritual friend who knows of Catholic priests who do magicks, and not any thing good. He knows of one who is a priest on Sunday and at Church of Satan, and I mean literally so, on Monday.


cakes and wine=communion, case closed.
communion= magick/sorcery, case closed.


Now, with mixing oil and water, comparing apples with oranages. Well, they're both liquids, the other one they're both fruits and kinda round. All are edible. All are made due to a higher power being here for me etc.

Its one thing to say mixing grease with a flame, that will combust. But, oil and water can still coexist, and are still liquid in form and edible. Just thought I'd confuse peopel more :)


I don't feel eclectic paganism is bad either. And, who has the right to tell somebody their spirituality is wrong cause they mix it up?


And, okay in Christianity's past bad things happened, but was that true Christianity? That's using the name Christianity for politics and propanda. Jesus's sacrifice to me is what true Christiainity is. For the Lord loved the world so much that the Lord gave the only son, Jesus. Jesus died for our sins etc (well what I believe.) Treat others as you wish to be treated, if a man wrongs you 7,00 times but is truly sorry forgive them 7,000 times, help the lost sheep, do not judge (take the plank out your eye before telling another there is a spec in theirs), and "I come not to bring peace but the sword." To me, this is what Christianity is. Forget the political dogma, the CCC/RCIA, forget all the translations and purposely done ones and altering. That is dogma. To me Christianity is the life of Jesus, Christ starts the word Christianity. Christos, the messiah, the saviour. INRI, Christ, the Lord, love thy neighboor. That is Christianity.

St. Patrick stomping out the snakes (aka pagan), the burning times, the crusades, that was not and I repeat not Christianity. That was Satan as the wolf in sheelp's clothing pretending to be Christianity. There were plenty of evil popes too, but that isn't every Catholic.

Christians were also fed to lions in Rome, persecuted, killed, called cannibals too. Everything is a cycle.


I don't belvie this person started this post to be ridiculed but to state their opinion. I think everyone who has been mean here should post their exact path then and be so willing and unafraid to be open to show others their spirituality this way then. Be ready to be ridiculed back then. If you can dish it, then be willing to take it. This may be my first, and hopefully one of my last, angry and judgemental seeming posts here. Whoever said this member gives paganism a wrong name, what is so wrong about being open to show your path?

Darkdale
October 4th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Catholic & Pagan... kind of being like male and female huh? lol Call it whatever you want, I don't think you'll find many informed people who are going to believe such a thing can exist.

ancestral_lee
October 4th, 2005, 02:39 PM
except catholics DONT see the saints as deities. you can say they do as much as you want - but that isnt catholic doctrine. they pray to saints to ask them to pray for them. take the hail mary

'hail mary,full or grace,
the lord is with thee,
blessed art though amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, jesus.
PRAY FOR US SINNERS,
now and at the hour or our death
amen.


the saints and Mary are intercedents. they are supposedly up there with God so have his ear.

if you ask any catholic do they see the saints as gods, then they will tell you no. they are people who happen to have been particularly holy and who are in heaven with god.

cheddarsox
October 4th, 2005, 02:55 PM
While there are undoubtedly similarities between many practices of pagan religions and Catholicism, there are important dogmatic differences as well.

Out of respect for the right of a faith and a religion to self define, I don't feel it is a good thing to refer to oneself using the names of faiths that cannot and do not condone the beliefs that one professes.

It is not accepted by the Catholic church for a person to practice paganism, to worship to other deities, to practice any form of magic, divination, etc. That is forbidden.

While I think it is acceptable for a person to worship whatever deities they are called to, I think it is better if the person cuts ties and gives up the name and association of the faith they are violating by doing so.

I am no longer a Catholic. My faith practice is incompatible with Catholicism, it would be a misrepresentation to continue to call my self Catholic. If I choose, I could still do some of the Catholic devotions, on my own. But that doesn't give me the right to call myself Catholic.

It can be hard to cut the rope and sail out of the harbor, but honesty demands it.

I don't know about mixing pantheons, and practices of different belief systems, I haven't been able to come to a conclusion about the appropriateness of that. But I do think it is unfair to call oneself a Wiccabuddhicathlodruid. Because those faiths have their own practices and authority that deserve respect.

If one can't decide on one faith, then I think it is best to use the term ecclectic or searching, or make up your own name for what you believe.

cheddar

BlackMagicalCat
October 4th, 2005, 02:59 PM
So you are telling me that I cannot have my spirituality. What a bunch of morally wrong people you are. Of all people you should be the ones happy that someone found a spiritual path. Guess most of you are still stuck on Christianity...that's why it is so hard for you to believe you can mix the two. Nobody cut me to shreads...I'm still going to honor who I honor and believe what I believe...wether right or wrong...just as most of you. I am very well informed on paganism...I was a full kemetic pagan until I felt no connection with the pantheon anymore.

No friend,I wasnt trashing your beliefs,I was just sharing my own struggles with trying to want one,while holding on to the other.

Besides,we both know the bible says you cannot serve two masters anyway.

At some piont,you will come to a fork in the road,and will have to go one way,or the other,in my humble opinion.

I pray you will find peace in your chosen path.

dark witch
October 4th, 2005, 07:23 PM
Again, I am not refering to you but to those that insted of questioning deciede to bash.

I hope that you aren't referring to me. I don't question your right to believe whatever you have combined together to form some kind of belief. However, I question your decision to call it either Paganism or Catholicism. You have created some hybrid faith that draws upon the dogma of each path that you, and you alone find fits your lifestyle. I don't think that is disputable, is it? Effectively, it is neither Pagan, nor Christian, it is your own unique mixture.

Again, I don't find this path valid, but I defend your right to believe whatever you want to believe.

Dark Witch

EponaCapaill
October 4th, 2005, 08:21 PM
except catholics DONT see the saints as deities. you can say they do as much as you want - but that isnt catholic doctrine. they pray to saints to ask them to pray for them. take the hail mary

'hail mary,full or grace,
the lord is with thee,
blessed art though amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, jesus.
PRAY FOR US SINNERS,
now and at the hour or our death
amen.


the saints and Mary are intercedents. they are supposedly up there with God so have his ear.

if you ask any catholic do they see the saints as gods, then they will tell you no. they are people who happen to have been particularly holy and who are in heaven with god.
THANK YOU! I have never viewed any of the Saints as dieties, nor has any Catholic I know. They are not to be worship. The are prayed to because they are able to ask special requests of God on our behalf. It's sorta (but not exactly) like going to a priest to confess your sins. People do have statues of Mary, Mary Magdalene, St. Joseph, St Francis of Asissi etc, etc, etc., in fact I have one of Mary and it means a lot to me. Mary has always been with me, not as a Goddess, but rather as a guide. In fact I wear metals for St Patrick and St Jude as well. But the statues are not idols, because they do not represent Gods or Goddesses and the statues are not prayed to. Yes, some Catholics will go into a church and stand in front of a statue of Mary and say the Hail Mary, but they aren't praying to the statue, they are praying to Mary for her intersession. Having the statue focuses the one who is praying, that is all. In my opinion it is not any different than standing in your front yard and praying or kneeling at the foot of your bed.

Seamus Donn
October 4th, 2005, 09:18 PM
What I am about to post is my view. By posting this I am not insulting anyone...it's just my opinion.

I feel that a few of the people who have posted that they have a problem with my path where one Catholic themselves. I feel that these people do not feel the two can mix because they still deep down somewhere in their unconscouis body feel that if the Catholic doctrine is true then mixing the two would be a very bad sin. This is just my take on things. Why I feel this way is because everyone of these people have stated about sin somewhere in their posts.

This is hopefully my last post because this subject has gotten rather touchy to some people.




I have no belief in sin however the Christians do and that includes the Catholics. They consider paganism an evil thing or sinful if you will. Its their religion and they have litterally died and killed for centuries to keep it that way. There is no Catholic pantheon. It might resemble it but nowhere does their doctrine state that the saints are minor gods. Catholics do not believe they are gods. If they did they would not be Catholic. Yes the doctrine was written by men and though most of us do not take it literally they do. Its what makes them Catholic. Picking and choosing from it all brought about protestantism and they were so good at it that they divided and subdivided themselves. Might consider it the beginning of ecclecticism.

If most people here are like me they consider Christians a threat due their past and the doctrine that still supports and condones it.

LadyCelt
October 5th, 2005, 01:14 AM
^^^^^^^ beware of me then, jk.


I am Christian, but I do not view people who are pagan or wiccan negatively. I do not view them as sinners or evil etc.

Protagonist
October 5th, 2005, 01:31 AM
If most people here are like me they consider Christians a threat due their past and the doctrine that still supports and condones it.
Sounds like you consider Christianity a threat! :alol:

RubyRose
October 5th, 2005, 01:32 AM
hiya rubyrose,

witchcraft is a skill, a practice. you can use witchcraft within just about any religous system (though whther aformentioned system allows it or forbids it is another matter) so yes a christian witch or cunningman is possible, most cunningmen back inthe 18th century in england were probably christian.

catholicism is a religion, 'paganism' is a religion of some form (depending on what type of pagan you describe yourself).

try to imagine a Jewish Muslim or a Satanic Hindu. that is trying to take two separate religions and mix them./ the problem arises when you have the abrahamic faiths which tecnd to be exclusivly monotheistic and forbid honouring or worship of other gods.

lee

Okay, point taken, but aren't there some pagan's out there that are monothesic? I mean there is the belief that ALL Gods are ONE, right?

ancestral_lee
October 5th, 2005, 12:09 PM
Okay, point taken, but aren't there some pagan's out there that are monothesic? I mean there is the belief that ALL Gods are ONE, right?

good question. ive had a think and im not totally sure how that stands. i will see what i can dig up from some people i know.

lee

mol
October 5th, 2005, 01:56 PM
ADMIN MODE

HEY! This forum is supposed to be a place where folks can post info about their path. You can ask questions, but we are not here to tell anyone their beliefs are WRONG. So stop it. This is a bannable offense. If you don't like the info about someones PERSONAL path then get out of the thread.

Seamus Donn
October 5th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Sounds like you consider Christianity a threat! :alol:



Umm....yep. :uhhuhuh:

Seamus Donn
October 5th, 2005, 07:08 PM
ADMIN MODE

HEY! This forum is supposed to be a place where folks can post info about their path. You can ask questions, but we are not here to tell anyone their beliefs are WRONG. So stop it. This is a bannable offense. If you don't like the info about someones PERSONAL path then get out of the thread.



ok, I'm out of the thread

RubyRose
October 6th, 2005, 12:52 AM
good question. ive had a think and im not totally sure how that stands. i will see what i can dig up from some people i know.

lee

Okay, ta. I can't remember how it stands either, to be honest. ;)

Cathubodva
October 6th, 2005, 07:28 AM
good question. ive had a think and im not totally sure how that stands. i will see what i can dig up from some people i know.

lee

No, its not monotheism, its monism.

I donīt know if im going to say something wrong according the board's policy, but somethings are hardly taken lightly, specially due to the fact that WE are in a PAGAN board, and that has something to say about the people HERE and their beliefs.

You can believe that you are horse, or a cow, or a pig, or a dog, you can even change your habits and daily routine to fit your beliefs. You will not, however, be a dog, or a cow, or a pig. You will still be a human.

The same thing is valid in the path/religion issue. Catholicism is not Christianity. It is a part of, but its not just. Catholicism, doesnt matter if it was "made" by God, or by "Man", is a valid path with rules and dogmas that explain what that religion is about, what its not, and what it will never be. You can not say what catholicism is or isnt simply because catholicism already says what it is, and what is it about. Theres nothing really complicated about this. Also, if you are a little bit versed on both the histories and beliefs of Paganism and Catholicism you will see for yourself that mixing them is not possible, and someone doing it will only create something that has no logic whatesoever, that will be neither of them, will confuse both of them, and above all, will be taking the richness of both paths and creating something that will ofende (sp) both catholics and pagans at the same time because the belief systems of both are interely different.

If you think that you have the authority to pick the bible and say whats good and what isnt, what is holy and what isnt, and then come to the pagan side and decide what can be mixed and what cant, thats really entirely up to you. If you think you can practice that and feel satisfied with yourself and your spiritual path, thats also great. Go ahead and fight for it, just dont expect that people will listen to you, will give you credibility, and respect you for it. I, for one, donīt. To me, Paganism (doesnt matter if its Neo, or not) it is a very serious business, not something funny that someone can play around than mix and match with whatever that person likes.

LadyCelt
October 6th, 2005, 12:22 PM
HEY! This forum is supposed to be a place where folks can post info about their path. You can ask questions, but we are not here to tell anyone their beliefs are WRONG. So stop it. This is a bannable offense. If you don't like the info about someones PERSONAL path then get out of the thread.



Thank you :)

Again, I never got the impression the starter of the thread thought of paganism or catholocism as a joke. I don't get the impression they take their spirituality lightly.


Part of why I like this forum is the acceptance of so many different things.

Cyzarine
October 6th, 2005, 01:11 PM
I am back for one last post in this thread. I can understand why I may have stirred up all of the drama and caused confused looks on peoples faces. It may not exactly have been what I believe that got people pissy...but the name of which I call my path. I have done some meditation on this and brought it to Mother Mary to ask for her guidance in chosing a name that fits my path. I have come to the conclusion that I am just eclectic.

This is an article I had found and yes, I apologize for not understanding those who where telling me the exact same thing as this article.

"There is NOTHING wrong with combining certain Christian and Wiccan beliefs into something new. However, if you're creating something new, why insist on labeling yourself something you no longer are? Christianity came from Judaism, but Christians don't claim that they're Jews. If you believe the Trinity to be three separate deities, that's your right. But that is NOT a Christian belief. By insisting on being both Christian and Wiccan, you've committed yourself to two incompatible theologies. Also, there's certainly nothing wrong with bringing certain Christian concepts into your Wiccan practice or certain Wiccan concepts into Christian practice. But neither of these situations results in a "Christian Wiccan".

Protagonist
October 10th, 2005, 01:37 AM
Umm....yep. :uhhuhuh:
People who live in glass houses shouldn't 1) throw stones, and 2) walk around naked. You're doing both here. Good luck with that.

Seamus Donn
October 10th, 2005, 01:29 PM
Umm....people who can't say what they mean oughta just keep quiet.

Ninjakitten
October 10th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Why is it that people on this board try to tell Christians that they don't have a monopoly on the truth, but when a Christian adopts beliefs and practices prayerfully and asking Godde what is okay and what is not in Pagan beliefs and practices, and what was Spirit inspired and what was not within and without the Bible, that Christian is considered a joke? Since when does anyone on this board have a monopoly on what the Universe and/or the Creator/Creatrix of said universe says to a person? Guess those questions kind of go back to what Protagonist said to some degree.

Path names are descriptive terms. If more than one path can more accurately describe a person's path than either path alone, then why come up with a new name? So long as you have the basics down of both paths (whatever those are in some of them, like being Christian meaning you follow Christ conciously whether he was savior or prophet), and you don't try to misrepresent either path by only claiming one of the paths (unless you are in the closet), then it shouldn't be a problem.

Heck, anyone actually know what a "witch" is, pre-Wicca? They tended to be Christians in faith and practice that also practiced things like herbalism and folk and kitchen magic in their homes, and were healers, midwives, and other things we associate with witchery today. They were called "witches" in the middle ages, and it was these Christian witches that were burned at the stake, as well as Christians who were on the wrong side of poilitics and some Pagans. Basically, anyone who didn't follow their political brand of Christianity (and, yes, it was politics driving it, not the teachings of Jesus the Christ).

Djinn
October 10th, 2005, 04:42 PM
There are a fair number of people who practice witchcraft that would tell you they are Christians. It's not something that is confined to the past. Folk witches who tell the future using candle wax in water will be in church on Sunday.

Ninjakitten
October 11th, 2005, 03:05 AM
There are a fair number of people who practice witchcraft that would tell you they are Christians. It's not something that is confined to the past. Folk witches who tell the future using candle wax in water will be in church on Sunday.


Read my profile lately? :D

Zibblsnrt
October 11th, 2005, 10:03 PM
Umm....people who can't say what they mean oughta just keep quiet.

I dunno, what Protagonist said sounded pretty clear, at least from where I'm standing.

Incidentally, telling folks to "keep quiet" because they're challenging your conduct strikes me as bad form. Just sayin'.

SunFlowerJade
December 18th, 2005, 11:34 PM
:huddle: Hey Cyzarine...don't let anyone tell you that your path isn't valid. I was raised Catholic as well. Now I am a ChristoPagan, and I mix elements of Catholicism with Wicca for my path. It works very well for me. Besides Catholicism by itself already has alot of Paganism in its roots. Mainstream society just does not want to admit that however. But we all know that Christianity has Pagan DNA...you keep on walking your path. :floating:

Be Blessed,
SunFlowerJade

:achug:

sidhe
December 19th, 2005, 12:25 AM
I see no problem with mixing elements of Catholicism and paganism. It's really (outside of the Orthodox and high-church Anglicans...and we don't wanna TOUCH the Orthodox on this one, and the Anglicans - at least the liberal ones - would have no problem with some mixing as long as it could be supported by at least a bit of scripture, tradition, and reason) the only branch of Christianity that has a "goddess" type figure in the Virgin Mary. But, if you're sticking to your Catholic background, I must admit that they don't mix easily. Either being a pagan using the Christian pantheon, or a Catholic recognizing the divine feminine would be less controversal ways of describing what you're doing.

Given that you have issues with Catholic statements on Faith and Morals (which, technically, if you disagree with you are automatically in a state of excommunication), I'd say a pagan using the Christian pantheon and Catholic imagery would be most accurate.

But it's not my place to name your path. :) I just wish you luck in your journeys and adventures

David19
December 19th, 2005, 02:57 PM
You should just follow whatever path calls to you, no one has any monopoly on the spirit/supernatural world and there are no 'one true ways' so everyone has a right to believe what they want.

Crimson Mage
December 24th, 2005, 10:50 PM
Cyzarine, your case is the PERFECT example of what I try to explain to people when I am asked about my thoughts on the Bible -- with the exception that you choose to think of things as "white lies" where I would think of them as opinions.
I have to say upfront that I believe in your right to worship whatever deities you choose in whatever manner you choose -- and call your faith whatever you wish to. I am only writing the following in order that some people who might disagree with the way you label it might see it from a slightly different perspective, and possibly understand a bit more.

Here is what I tell people when I am asked in my shoppe whether I believe in the Bible:

The Bible is NOT the Law. It was written by a group of men (unidentified men) who were writing their opinion of what they had seen. Assuming its translation from its original language is 100% correct (and thats at issue as well), it is still opinion. Here's why that fact is important:

Lets say we both look at this post, and describe what we see. You might say its a light blue background with darker blue areas and black text. I might say its a php script with size 12 arial font and 21 options for editting.
The key is -- we both just looked at the same thing, and we did not describe a single thing in common. Neither of us lied (a big key to this), we are both accurate in our descriptions.
And there lies my point, and my most basic reasoning for being a Pagan. I do not think the men who wrote that book lied -- in fact I feel relatively sure they were trying to be as accurate as we both were. In the end though, its their OPINION of what they saw, and subject to individual interpretation. I simply do not agree with how they interpreted things. Strange as it may seem, could it be that Jesus was female? How do we know that the writers of the bible did not change the sex of the individual because they lived in a society where men were the ONLY ones that were supposed to have power? I know thats a pretty far-out example, but the principle holds true. The problem for me has always been that it is held up as "the Law" and "the word of God". It isnt really, its someone's opinion -- unless you can prove God WROTE it --- something that no one has ever claimed.

In the end, for you to determine for yourself that certain parts are valid, and other need replacing with something you view as more "realistic" to you personally is a good thing, and dont let anyone change that. The vast majority of people want to label someone as this, or fit them into a certain "path". I, for one, fit into my own -- it works for no one but me, and isnt meant to. Bottom line is EVERYONE who believes in SOMETHING, whatever that may be, is blessed in my book. And for someone to challenge another person based on how they describe themselves or the name they give to their personal path is violating the most basic principle of Paganism --- the idea that we are ALL entitled to believe as we wish, that there is NO book of rules or prerequisites that any of us must follow. Call it what you will, but the BEST description is not to say "I am a ________", its to say "I follow MY path" -- whether you are on the same one as others, or whether yours is unique in this universe.