Dead Gods

[Pol]

I was thinking about this last night, and was curious what are others' opinions.

If a god or goddess 'died' in its mythology, for instance in a war or what have you, or if it was somehow replaced in power or bound up in some mystical prison to be forever powerless, are they still valid in belief?
What I mean is, does the actual mythology of the deity come into play, or do you feel that names and ideas and such are just applications that help to focus one's energies when one is praying, meditating, et cetera?

[dragoncrone]

does the actual mythology of the deity come into play?

Warning: I tend to take a humorous approach to things...
OK, so...the term 'actual mythology' is kind of an oxymoron, isn't it? Actual implies real, while mythology implies archetypal...

But I would say that the 'actual mythology' of the deity is an integral part of that particular god or goddess, and if he/she is depicted as dying in folklore, then death would be part of their persona. Some gods/goddesses live on forever, and that is comforting when invoking them. Others who passed did so for a reason, and we should examine that reason when calling up their spirit.

For example, Isis and her husband - while 'dead,' he nevertheless serves as the husband/consort/father figure to her and remains part of the Egyptian Pantheon.

Just my take on the situation...

[Pol]

Well, what I mean by actual mythology is the mythology laid down by the people that 'started' the particular mythology.

Anyway, thanks for the post. I'll follow that trail of thought deeper in my own ambitions.

[Silver Water]

Death isn't the same for gods and goddesses as it is for humans. At least, not in most religions and pantheons. Like in Christianity, Jesus died but they still worship him.

And in Norse (I think it's called Norse, I could be wrong so correct me if I am) Balor died, but he kept some of his powers. At least, that's what I learned about him. And then there's the Osiris (spelling?) example that dragoncrone gave up above.

[ShadowcatX]

"That is not dead, which can eternal lie, and in the stragne eons, even death may die." - Cuthullu

But that neat little quote aside, I'd say it'd depend on the mythology. The example of Osiris was given as one that is still worshipped. However, on the flip coin, (and of course my brain turns off, so I can't think of any gods that are truely and irrevocably dead in lore) gods that died and were pretty much ignored after that point, are probably ignored for a reason.

But it's your religion, do as you will.

[Infinite Grey]

Death isn't the same for gods and goddesses as it is for humans. At least, not in most religions and pantheons. Like in Christianity, Jesus died but they still worship him.



Actually Jesus is a poor example, as according to Christianity he did more than die. He died, swiped the keys of death and moonlighted in the land of living before heading on back to heaven. So Christians to worship Jesus as dead, but as one that died and came back again.


As to Pol's question... I suppose you could worship a dead or imprisoned deity, but there doesn't seem much point, as they would be powerless. According to the mythology anyways.

[Pol]

Thanks for the opinions, everyone.

And yeah, Jesus isn't exactly 'dead.' He just died, and came back again, with a fancy body and everything.

[Pol]

Also, and it's been YEARS since I studied Egyptian mythology (but I studied it quite deeply at the time), didn't Osiris change/become something else in his death? I mean, he didn't just die, it was more like he kind of died but remained animated.

I think a good example of another side I was thinking of was in the userping/replacing field, like the Titans and such.

[ishysquishy]

There was a fantastic comic that unfortunately no longer exists, called "Who's Yo Deity".

There was a brilliant moment when Jesus makes a nasty comment about Zeus' sexual practices, Zeus retorts "I was a conneseur (sp?) interesting times. But what about you? Technically you're a zombie"

[David19]

I think that there is truth about the gods in myths and that they may have changed over time but it doesn't mean that they never happened and i don't think death is the same fors gods since they seem to go on, death doesn't seem to bother them.

[argento_occhi]

If I remember correctly, Wesir died, yes, and Aset brought him back to life long enough to concieve Heru-sa-Aset. Then Wesir became King of the Afterworld, King of the Duat. Still living, but dead. Sort of. It works, somehow. :) I haven't read the myth for a while. Hope that's helpful.

Argent

[ishysquishy]

If I remember correctly, Wesir died, yes, and Aset brought him back to life long enough to concieve Heru-sa-Aset. Then Wesir became King of the Afterworld, King of the Duat. Still living, but dead. Sort of. It works, somehow. :) I haven't read the myth for a while. Hope that's helpful.

Argent

Makes sense for a King of the dead to be dead himself. Most logical thing to occur.

But, for Kemets (ok, I don't know the right word), isn't death just living in another place?

[argento_occhi]

Yeah, something like that. More existence or not. Some go on to be reborn again, some stay on. Some get obliterated. *shrugs* Depends on whether you go for judgement, and whether you pass judgement.

And there's lots of words for what we call ourselves, depending on which group we're attached to as well as personal choice too. Kemetic Orthodox is not a blanket term for every kemetic reconstructionist. Kemeticism is something else entirely and in no way related to the Kemetic religion. I know I went by the term Kemetic Pagan for a while too. All depends.

Hope that helps.

Argent

[DebLipp]

Myths exist in mythic time, not historic time. Their stories happen before the beginning and after the end. Thus we have myths that predate the existence of death or sex, but in history, there has always been death and sex. Just so, in mythic time a deity can die (like Baldar) but in historic time, the deity is.

This applies to dying and resurrecting gods as well, as some of them are worshipped differently when they are supposed to be "dead," (for example, those Gaulish Cernunnos figures with removable antlers, so that He can be worshiped with and without), but most are not. Think of Persephone: Supposedly She lives part of the year with Hades and part with Her mother, but whenever a Greek hero or deity descends to the underworld, Persephone is there. She is the Goddess of the Underworld, and the historic seasonality doesn't effect Her existence in mythic space.

This doesn't apply to various "Elder Gods" such as Titans, Fir Bolg, and other beings who were never worshiped by the people telling about them.

[Theres]

it's important not to confuse mythology with religion.
the Greeks understood the difference, and i'll give you an example... Gaia.

you won't find any ancient rites to Her or stories of Her deeds, and yet there She is as the All. She fills an aetiological need, a very necessary function to the highly rational Greeks.