Questions about YHWH?

[David19]

I just wanted to know what kind of deity you think Yahweh is, do you see him/her/it as the all, a manifestation of the all or an individual deity. Also what do you see him as god of e.g. like Ares has war, Aphrodite has love, etc?.

BTW, hope this makes sense, i'm in a rush right now.

[Jolixte]

YHWH is a name for the God of the Old Testament. I can't say I think that God ever existed in that form though.

[lednevir]

YVHV introduced themselves as 'I am that I am'

[Agaliha]

Here is another view of YHWH:
Y - God-the-Father
H - Goddess-the-Mother
V - Son of God
H - Holy Daughter

The "Quaternity"

Mentioned HERE (http://northernway.org/rosary.html)

[LadyCelt]

since I couldn't find it, was the holy daughter virgin mary or mary magdelene?

[Pol]

I think of YHWH as the sort of old crazy lonely god that was once wise and powerful but has descended into madness.
He's not a bad bloke, really.

[Fr. INRI]

YWHW/YHVH is not so much an actual god as it is a magickal formula. It is a qabalistic equation, the division of the four worlds. Check out Lon Milo Duquette's Chicken Qabala for an awesome essay on it. The book belongs in every magickally minded person's library anyway.

[Agaliha]

since I couldn't find it, was the holy daughter virgin mary or mary magdelene?

Well according to the source I posted a link for...it's more Gnostic/Esoteric Christanity--- the "Holy Daughter" is Mary Magdalene.
It sort of explains it in my post above-- just go to the link ;)

[goDez]

YWHW/YHVH is not so much an actual god as it is a magickal formula. It is a qabalistic equation, the division of the four worlds. Check out Lon Milo Duquette's Chicken Qabala for an awesome essay on it. The book belongs in every magickally minded person's library anyway.

I agree with this (and yes, the book is a musthave, as is every book of Lon Milo Duquette :P)

I would like to add a practical view of JHWH as I know it:

YHVH is the fourfold devision that we find in alot of systems:
-Every cardtype in the tarot (staves, cups, swords, pentacles) represents one of the 4 Hebrew letters.
-Every Hebrew letter in YHVH is connected to an element (Fire, Earth, Water, Air).
-Every Hebrew letter is connected to a world in the Qabala (Aziluth, Beriah, Jezirah, Assijjah).
-In Golden Dawn color magic, every letter represents a color scale (Queen, King, Princess, Prince).
-A Golden Dawn Talisman is divided in 4 parts, where each letter represents a part of the talisman (and thus it's meaning). This translates to the Qabala's four worlds (Primeordeal World, Archangelic World, Angelic World, Spirit/Matter World)

And i'm pretty sure I forgot about tons of other four-folds that translate into YHVH. Remember that in essence, it is but a formula to link through all these representations. In all cases, the above representations of a Hebrew letter are somehow similar to all other representations of that same letter in other principles.

YHVH of the Qabala is nothing more then "I am what I am" - The ultimate God. Since the Qabala is Jewish, therefor Yehovah is the Jewish All-God. For Wiccans the representations can be very powerful in magical use tho. This does not mean that you have to ascribe YHVH to the one and only god. It goes with polytheistic belief as well - YHVH is all together, but still every polytheistic god/goddess can be derived from bits and pieces from the Qabalistic YHVH, such as exist on different sephira on the tree of life, or be represented by different planets. Therefor every pantheon is still valid, as well as a Gardnerian Aradia/Gaia-Cernunnos/Horned One combo.

Hope I made it a bit clear... If i'm wrong, please correct me. If you don't understand, please ask and I will try to deepen the info.

Dez

[LadyCelt]

I view it as this Father, Son, Holy Spirit (the female part, Sophia, Virgin Mary, Mary Magdelene.)

Or it could be parent (male and female), Son, holy spirit.


Interesteing about the letters all representing elements.


I've seen something about a sand dollar too being with the Lord. And, considering its a star in a somewhat circle, its very interesting.

[Fr. INRI]

A very concise and indepth explanation. Karma go up.

I agree with this (and yes, the book is a musthave, as is every book of Lon Milo Duquette :P)

I would like to add a practical view of JHWH as I know it:

YHVH is the fourfold devision that we find in alot of systems:
-Every cardtype in the tarot (staves, cups, swords, pentacles) represents one of the 4 Hebrew letters.
-Every Hebrew letter in YHVH is connected to an element (Fire, Earth, Water, Air).
-Every Hebrew letter is connected to a world in the Qabala (Aziluth, Beriah, Jezirah, Assijjah).
-In Golden Dawn color magic, every letter represents a color scale (Queen, King, Princess, Prince).
-A Golden Dawn Talisman is divided in 4 parts, where each letter represents a part of the talisman (and thus it's meaning). This translates to the Qabala's four worlds (Primeordeal World, Archangelic World, Angelic World, Spirit/Matter World)

And i'm pretty sure I forgot about tons of other four-folds that translate into YHVH. Remember that in essence, it is but a formula to link through all these representations. In all cases, the above representations of a Hebrew letter are somehow similar to all other representations of that same letter in other principles.

YHVH of the Qabala is nothing more then "I am what I am" - The ultimate God. Since the Qabala is Jewish, therefor Yehovah is the Jewish All-God. For Wiccans the representations can be very powerful in magical use tho. This does not mean that you have to ascribe YHVH to the one and only god. It goes with polytheistic belief as well - YHVH is all together, but still every polytheistic god/goddess can be derived from bits and pieces from the Qabalistic YHVH, such as exist on different sephira on the tree of life, or be represented by different planets. Therefor every pantheon is still valid, as well as a Gardnerian Aradia/Gaia-Cernunnos/Horned One combo.

Hope I made it a bit clear... If i'm wrong, please correct me. If you don't understand, please ask and I will try to deepen the info.

Dez

[indigo rain]

Check out Lon Milo Duquette's Chicken Qabala for an awesome essay on it. The book belongs in every magickally minded person's library anyway.
it's on my amazon wish list. :)

[David19]

I think i might have posted this before but i want to get some more general opinions. What/who do you think Yahweh is. If your an hard polytheist what do you think, do you think he created the world or is just one god among others, do you think he is power hungry, good/evil, etc. I just want to try and get others opinions so i can decide what he may be for my own beliefs.

Thanks

[Karma Chameleon]

I think i might have posted this before but i want to get some more general opinions. What/who do you think Yahweh is. If your an hard polytheist what do you think, do you think he created the world or is just one god among others, do you think he is power hungry, good/evil, etc. I just want to try and get others opinions so i can decide what he may be for my own beliefs.

Thanks

I say he's a tribal god, or at least that's how he started off.

[Agaliha]

I voted: Hebrew tribal god
Because I too think that is how he started. I have read about the other Gods of the area and time: Baal, El, Ellat, Asherah, etc. The very early Hebrews had more than one diety. From what I have read it wasn't until partiarchy took root that the other Dieties were looked down on and demonized--espeically the Goddesses. So to me he is a God like all the rest [in the world], but not THE God-- not THE creator....

[Toby Stimpson]

Well, if you look at Judaism, Yahwah is one name among many to refer to God. There's Elohim, Adonai, Hashem, Yahwah...the Christians say Jehovah. Personally I see the monotheistic stance of Jews as being right, however i do not follow the form. the Form is a symbol and a manifestation...but not the entirety of the Divine. in that case, when i think of soemone call God Adonai...well ocourse I think "the Jwish God" but at the same time, i also think "the jewish NAME for God." So to me he is Creator. I would bow to Adonai as I would bow to Allah, or Vahguru, or Brahman, or the Kami. All just diferent names for the same thing, albeit masked with different forms...(except for Allah, although he does have a personality.)

Namaste

Tobias

[SSanf]

Don't get me started!!!

I might tell you what I really think of Yahweh and I don't think that kind of colorful language is allowed on this board!

[Karma Chameleon]

Don't get me started!!!

I might tell you what I really think of Yahweh and I don't think that kind of colorful language is allowed on this board!


Now you've peaked my curiousity.

[Agaliha]

Now you've peaked my curiousity.

Me too! :shhhh:

[Nova]

An interesting discussion of the Biblical creation myth and Yahweh according to one pagan. I didn't re-read it to see if it's offensive - I do see the word "fundies" in the link, so be warned. I think it points out Yahweh lying also. Double warned!

http://www.paganlibrary.com/fundies/other_people.php

[Akhkharu Asgard]

Yahweh is a god that came to Abraham and in exchange for a "special" singular relationship with them they got Canaan. That's it. Read their history and you will see the same thing. All other religious componants can be left or taken as in any religion.

[IvyWitch]

An interesting discussion of the Biblical creation myth and Yahweh according to one pagan. I didn't re-read it to see if it's offensive - I do see the word "fundies" in the link, so be warned. I think it points out Yahweh lying also. Double warned!

http://www.paganlibrary.com/fundies/other_people.php

Ugh, I *hate* that essay. Oberon Zell does nothing more here than supply Pagans with righteous indignation using information from the Bible that is TOTALLY taken out of context and best, and just plain wrong at worst. Somewhere I have my own essay pointing out all the errors in this one.

[Nova]

Can you post your essay? :D I'd love to see it.

[Agaliha]

Here summarizes the Gnostic view of him, the god of the Old Testament, just to give another view.

Deity: The Supreme Father God or Supreme God of Truth is remote from human affairs; he is unknowable and undetectable by human senses. She/he created a series of supernatural but finite beings called Aeons. One of these was Sophia, a virgin, who in turn gave birth to an defective, inferior Creator-God, also known as the Demiurge. (Demiurge means "public craftsman" in Greek.) This lower God is sometimes called Yaldabaoth or Ialdabaoth Jaldabaoth -- from Aramaic words meaning "begetter of the Heavens." This is Jehovah, the God of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). He is portrayed as the creator of the earth and its life forms. He is viewed by Gnostics as fundamentally evil, jealous, rigid, lacking in compassion, and prone to genocide. The Demiurge "thinks that he is supreme. His pride and incompetence have resulted in the sorry state of the world as we know it, and in the blind and ignorant condition of most of mankind."
{http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm}

It more detailed than that, but that is the jist of it.

[IvyWitch]

Can you post your essay? :D I'd love to see it.

I have to find it....and I just hope it survived the computer crash...

*looking*

Damn....unfortunately it did not survive :awwman: However this just means I'll have to re-write it, lol.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

BAH! Zell! I do NOT understand how that twit got to be such a voice for modern paganism, as he is nothing more than a blithering idiot in my eyes.

[Djinn]

BAH! Zell! I do NOT understand how that twit got to be such a voice for modern paganism, as he is nothing more than a blithering idiot in my eyes.

Wow, Silverfire, tell us how you feel! Don't hold back now. _whistle_

Actually, I agree with you. Zell gives me a headache every time I have to read his drivel.

[Fr. INRI]

Allow me to shed a little light on the topic of Yahweh.

The name Yahweh comes from the Hebrew godname YHVH (or YHWH), which is said to be the un-speakable name of their god. This name is commonly referred to as the "tetragrammaton". When Orthodox Jews come across the name YHVH when reading aloud, they replace it with the word "Adonai" which means Lord.

Yahweh is a guess at how the vowel-less name YHVH could be pronounced. Other attempts include "Jehovah" which is equally as likely, and it is possible (as Qabalist and auhtor Lon Milo Duquette pointed out) the name could be pronounced "Ehahwoohoo" or any other number of silly combinations of vowel sounds.

As for the actual deity, YHVH is often considered to have been an early Semetic war-god who grew in popularity and began to overtake the worship of other local gods like Baal (hence Baal's demonization in the Bible as the followers of YHVH struggled against his followers). Nowadays, the Jewish YHVH is generally considered to be analagous to the Christian God the Father and the Muslim Allah; all three religious spring from the founder Abraham.

Qabalisitically and magickally, YHVH is less an actual deity and more a math problem for explaining reality; the universe is split into four seperate "worlds", each one corresponding to one of the letters in the tetragrammaton. Each letter also has a corresponding astrological sign, Tarot suit, element, and, as is usual with Qabalah, about a billion other things that are split into fours, that are assigned to each letter.

[Gnoblod]

Hebrew tribal god with an overzealous PR department.

[Meadhbh]

Hebrew tribal god with a complex. He seems unduly threatened by other gods. Perhaps do to low self-esteem. There's an ideal a god with no self esteem.

[OpenHands]

David19,

"What/who do you think Yahweh is. If your an hard polytheist what do you think, do you think he created the world or is just one god among others, do you think he is power hungry, good/evil, etc."

I flip-flop back and forth between seeing him from a historical perspective and a theological perspective. From a historical perspective, he seems so much like a combination of the Canaanite gods Ilu and Ba'al. This makes sense considering that the Israelites of that time were influenced by the polytheistic religions around them.

In that light, it also makes sense that YHWH placed himself up as the head god and demanded that his people worship only him (although I'm sure people had a hand in getting the word out about this too). Outside religions were very tempting to bring into Israelite worship and there was fierce competition. Thus the polemics you see in the Hebrew scriptures aimed at foreign gods- the attacks wouldn't have been so aggressive if there wasn't ample reason to convince the people that the other gods were not worth worshipping. There were unmistakable similarities between YHWH and some of the pagan gods. *gets off tangent*

On the other hand, I treat YHWH as an individual tribal god. I think how his nature is depicted was influenced by man and that is probably where a lot of the Canaanite overlap comes from, but how much...I couldn't say. I don't consider him good or evil- just as I don't consider other gods good or evil. He certainly seems to have benevolent qualities, but he can kick ass when he wants to. Not all that different from the gods I worship.

The whole creation topic gets a little tangled up in my head. I don't believe in literal creation stories like the ones in Genesis, but I do think there is truth to the idea that the creation of life comes from the divine. I believe that life requires a "divine spark", so to speak, and that creation is a holy act. (Didn't say that a holy act has to be good or bad- it's just holy, mind you.) So I don't believe that any god sat around and whipped up the world, but that the divine (whether it be the gods or the divine spark in living things) plays a part in all of creation. So that's sort of a "yes, but no" to your question. :)

[Tobias]

I think that Yahweh is just one tribe's attempt to make sense of their experience with the Divine. No different than Thor or Zeus.

Unfortunately, politics and human interests have always invaded upon spirituality. We never get pure report from anyone who encounters Divinity. For one, we all have our own expectations and beliefs which color our ability to relate the facts about the experience.

In religion, we also get "priests for hire"; those who don't have one lick of spirituality themselves, but try and lead others to it. Then we get politics, humanism, and any number of other influences also warping the record.

Jesus found the religion of Yahweh to be in sad shape, and pointed people in a different direction. Paul took it even further, making Jesus out to be the final sacrifice so animals were no longer needed.

Christianity has done a lot with this foundation over the years. Some good, some bad. I think human nature would have done much the same with any of the religions available at the time when Constentine chose Christianity to be the State religion. If we were all Asatru or Kemetic, wars would still have been fought, and people hunted down and tortured in the name of one god or another.

As it is, Xtianity has a couple thousand years of our spiritual heritage locked up inside it. Great Saints and ministers have left markers along the path for our benefit. But we also need to keep up with the spiritual technology available, and not keep our heads in the sand. In this Age of Information, so much is available to us from deep inside other religions and cultures. It would be a shame to not listen; and adjust our beliefs accordingly.

[Seshata]

Ok, with regards to the Hebrew mythology you need to take into account their history. They were slaves which were later freed in Babylon, then they wandered off and were slaves again in Egypt - you have the influence of two types of mythology there. If you read the Sumerian myths you start seeing the similarity with some of the stories from the old testament - Flood myth and some aspects of the creation myth (there is a 'special garden') etc.

Thus I view him as a mixture between concepts from the influences of the places that the Hebrews were slaves and a mountain/sky god. Unfortunately a tad temperamental and desirous of being the 'only one'...

BB

Seshata

[Necrosapien]

As there is not any who shared the same sentiments as I, I feel as though I should bring my opinion to the light. I didn't vote, because I'm not sure who YHVH is. I worship the creator...whomever that may be. I try to stay away from names and titles and simply refer to it as Godde or my abba and amma (hebrew for pappa and momma). I do address God as YHVH or just God. I don't know if YHVH is appropriate...I don't know his real name. I know I worship a God who cares about me and loves me. I intend to worship the Creator.

This is how I look at it:

Computers on a network talk to each other. If I want to send something from Comp A to Comp B I send out a message saying, "Hey, are you computer B?" This gets sent to all the computers on the network (the gods in the Cosmos). They get it and read it and say, "Nope, I'm not computer B," and they "drop" the message. There's one that says, "Oh, yeah, that's me," and that one reads it. Once I've sent one message, I've established a relationship of sorts. I know the IP adress (how to contact the diety) but I might not know the MAC adress (the name). I'm trying to let go of the names because in the end, it doesn't matter what name the diety I worship goes by...it's that I feel that the Creator is worth worshipping, whomever that may be...(to be honest, I'm not comfortable with the following, but I'm trying to let go)...it doesn't matter if the diety is called YHVH, Allah, Brahmin, Amen, Adonis, El, Elohim or anything else (you can put a lot of things in here...) It doesn't matter, becuase it'd be the same diety we'd be worshipping anyways...it's just that everyone's uncomfortable with names. I know YHVH has many names...it's just when it comes to other cultures that we have problems with. Some call the creator god by a different name. If you take away the name, what do we have left? The "Big Guy" so-to-speak. That's who I worship...and as of now, I call it YHVH, Adonai, and Abba/Amma. In the end, I worship The Creator and that's all that matters.

[Tobias]

Creator God, eh?

Creator of what? The universe? Our solar system? Or mabey just the manipulator of circumstances that provided in favor of life being sustained on this planet?

What of our spirit beings, our souls? Did the same being create both the physical and the spiritual?

I guess what I'm saying is: I have to many questions about our origins to send out a request for "The Creator"; and trust that I'd get the right one!

[Necrosapien]

See, and I figure that "the creator" made everything. If it's capable of making the physical, I figure it could also make the spiritual. I still hold onto the concept that one being created all...if I'm wrong, oh well. Besides, that's just how I look at it.

:strike:

[goDez]

A very concise and indepth explanation. Karma go up.

Well thank you :)

[goDez]

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2160432

That right there is the quest David19 posted before this one. I've also posted my explanation there already, so no need to repeat!

Dez

[Ron]

I voted other, because I think that that the Abrahamic G-d is defined by: a handful of gods (or a manifestation thereof) that look after those who cling to "Fate".

(I realize that my beliefs are offensive to some... but I'm a Yeshua-loving child... I just have a different view of the Father/Parent)

[MerlynHerne]

I think that to some extent, the gods/goddesses are reflections of those who worship them. After having been Christian much of my life and a priest as well, I am familiar with the Old Testament but never made it a big part of my life at that time? Why? Because from a very young age, I was put off by the cruelty and behaviour that varied so much from what the New Testament said that we were supposed to do and to be. I saw Yahweh as a reflection of a racist, sexist vengeful society--and I wanted no part of it!

The saddest part of all the nonsense from the Christian Right is that they are basically Yahwehist and not Christian at all...they may have Christ as part of their scenario but the Christ of the apostle Paul (and I will NOT get on that subject or this will become a ten post rant!).

In the end I see Yahweh as an old Hebrew Tribal god and not one I would care to worship.

[LordHelmet]

Yahweh is a god that came to Abraham and in exchange for a "special" singular relationship with them they got Canaan. That's it. Read their history and you will see the same thing. All other religious componants can be left or taken as in any religion.

Sorry no. You're talking about Elohim/El

yahweh (also Jehova) shows up with Moses, first not giving his name but claiming to be Abrahams God.

[Ptah]

YHVH is the Egyptian god Th-th in his lunar form of Iahu.

[LordHelmet]

YHVH is the Egyptian god Th-th in his lunar form of Iahu.

Thats new. I knew that David and tut were likely the same. David = DW-D Thoth = Tut.

Iaho could very well become JHVH, ya I can see that.

[Annyka]

I voted creator, but not as in THE creator, but as in A creator.. I could have voted a few of the choices, but I think he Created the lineage of believers who follow him. He is just another God, who began his creating with the Hebrew tribes.

[Fire's Shadow]

Hebrew tribal god with an overzealous PR department.

Bahahahaha!! So true.

[Ptah]

Thats new. I knew that David and tut were likely the same. David = DW-D Thoth = Tut.

Iaho could very well become JHVH, ya I can see that.

Personally, I believe that Moses of the bible is the same Tutmes (Born of Th-th) that was the brother Amenhotep V (Ahkenaten, Strength of the sun disk). One developed a monotheistic version of the sun (Aten) and the other a monotheistic version of Th-th (Iahu, the moon). Both were trained by the same priest (Ay) and what is known is that Tutmes was a Sem priest of the Temple of Th-th. However, Tutmes disappeared from the pages of Egyptian history while Akhenaten became the heretic pharoah. Later pharoahs tried to erase Ahkenaten from history also.

If all that is correct, then David could not have been Tutankhamoun, if so he would have been the king of Israel prior to the Exodus. Even biblical accounts place David a few hundred years after Moses.

[cowdragon]

Personally, I don't think any gods/goddesses created the universe. I think they came into exsistance as humans (and near humans) imagined them into exsistance, as they tried to explain the world around them. There was a "life spark" that was divine, but not intelligent design by any means.

I voted "other" for Yaway, because he is not one god, but aspects of many. Therefore, I see him as a false god. He does not exsist, and if he does, one day I will get the chance to tell him to "stuff it" for all his cruelty and misinformation. For the years of guilt. Many, many issues. ;)

I like my Norse gods and goddesses. I have been chosen by Loki, fits my trickster personality, and my otter animal totem. My family are new, but dedicated polytheists. Others are welcome to worship their gods/goddesses too. But I'm tired of the Yaway religions controling our world. It's time for change, and testimonials seemed to work out well for them... I'm openly testifying my beleifs to any willing to listen. I've already converted a friend, and one more is asking many questions. A few more years and we'll win. :fprtyman3 I hope.



The Cowdragon _wiz_

[Necrosapien]

Not to be offensive, but as of now, I worship YHVH. I disagree with what you say about "winning". It seems pointless and childish to me to talk about "winning" anything. I don't go around saying how your god did this or that. No one's perfect, and I'd venture a guess to say that the gods and goddesses themselves aren't perfect. For you to say that you're "winning" seems stupid. The only ones who "win" anything are those that find the divine in whatever aspect fits closest with them. Religion bashing is one thing...god bashing is another. Religions are only man's way of percieving things, not the way they are. You can't blame a god for the way its followers act...the Crusades...they had nothing to do with YHVH and everything to do with man-made bs. 9/11 or the suicide bombings...they had nothing to do with Allah but everything to do with a bunch of bs that some select people thought. Religion is mans attempt to interpet the divine...no one's 100% right about anything. Religion can be used to manipulate, control, or put fear into people...but it can also be used for the betterment of mankind. So in my defense as one who understands the Divine as YHVH, I think it'd be best if we focused on becoming better people ourselves instead of seeing if my god could beat up your god...

[cowdragon]

Necrosapien: thanks for helping me make my point by calling my ideas "stupid". That's why Yawoohoo is losing. That's why pagans, heathens, etc are winning.:achug:



The Cowdragon _wiz_

[Xentor]

I'm trying to let go of the names because in the end, it doesn't matter what name the diety I worship goes by...it's that I feel that the Creator is worth worshipping, whomever that may be...(to be honest, I'm not comfortable with the following, but I'm trying to let go)...it doesn't matter if the diety is called YHVH, Allah, Brahmin, Amen, Adonis, El, Elohim or anything else (you can put a lot of things in here...) It doesn't matter, becuase it'd be the same diety we'd be worshipping anyways...it's just that everyone's uncomfortable with names.

In some magical systems knowing and speaking the name of the being gives one power over that being. To the followers of such systems, the name matters a lot.

Interesting outlook, though.

[Xentor]

Not to be offensive, (...) For you to say that you're "winning" seems stupid. (...) Religion bashing is one thing...god bashing is another. (...) I think it'd be best if we focused on becoming better people ourselves instead of seeing if my god could beat up your god...

How is it you know the rule of respect, but fail to follow it part of the time?

[Xentor]

BAH! Zell! I do NOT understand how that twit got to be such a voice for modern paganism, as he is nothing more than a blithering idiot in my eyes.

:fofftopic

Of course you don't have to explain yourself at all. But if you don't want to look like a blithering idiot yourself, you may want to anyway. I'm sensing a lot of anger in your post. Am I right?

[cowdragon]

re: Xentor
Thank you for helping to remind me that I need to be nicer too! :)

re: Necrosapien
My retort to you was meant to be mean, although I don't know how successful I was. I was simply feeling resentful and I'm sorry. I would take it back if I could.



The Cowdragon _wiz_