Damn these people!

[xjsjaglvr]

Well it has happened once again, someones rights to live as they see fit has impacted mine and I am sick of it. Now I will say right off that what I am about to say will offend some, and since I am very angry right now some may think my anger guides my pen. Try and look through my anger and perhaps your own stand on the issue.
My wife got stuck again today, She sees patients at a high risk peri-natal center. High risk means older women, certain chronic health problems, and unfortunately AIDS. Whenever another OB-GYN gets an AIDS patient they dump them onto a high risk center. No use risking their lives over an AIDS patient. AIDS is automatically high risk. Now sometimes in "the heat of battle" so to speak when even the best trained people are working on a soon to be mom, even one known to have AIDS, sharps, (needles) can be missed and the next thing you know someone gets stuck. All the latex gloves and face shields in the world are meaningless. Now it is six months of blood testing again, and living with a sword over us.
In spite of what AIDS activists will tell you it is not regular hetero-sexuals who are getting AIDS. AIDS, and I will agree with them on this is a terrible thing to have and die from. The sad fact is that every AIDS patient my wife has seen all these years had either a Bi-sexual partner or was an inter-venous drug user or their partner was. I don't care to read statistics, my family gets to live with this. I hear people scream about more money for research, etc. I hear people scream about their rights, the right to sleep with whoever they want, to do whatever destructive thing they want, oh no don't put a positive HIV/AIDS test in a public data bank, they have rights you know. Wouldn't want someone finding out that the person they are considering having sex with is positive for HIV/AIDS. We have known for some time how HIV/AIDS is passed yet people have unprotected sex, stick needles in their arms, or assume that AZT etc, will keep them alive. Go ahead screw to your hearts content. Others will take care of you, others will deal with the effects of your decisions. You have rights!
What about my rights, the right to make love with my wife for the next 6 months without fear, what about the right of my wife to watch our daughter grow up. See because of the law, my wife doesn't have the RIGHT to refuse these people, no, she has RESPONSIBILITIES. She has to see them, to take care of them. They have the rights and we have to deal with it. I want my wife and my family to have rights, the right to say sorry, I will not care for you, you were stupid, nature is thinning the herd and you are about to be culled. Will it happen? No, why, because my wife isn't as uncaring of her responsibilities as some of her patients are. She will go to work each day, she will get blood tests every month for the next 6 months, we will have safe sex (using condoms) at home, and deal with this.
So to all you folks who have marched in the streets for your rights, the right to ignore warnings, to say the hell with condoms, to stick that next needle in your arm, to demand more tax dollars to save your ass because you made stupid choices. Remember there are those of us that loose our rights every day to deal with your rights. One day we will decide that we won't give up those rights anymore. Then what will you do?
Jag

[mato]

Personal responsibility is important but how often is it exercised. Ranting against aids patients, now thats just mean. How often do people stop to think about their actions? Not very. Infact alot of people are impacted by the lack of personal responsibility, the smoker the drunk driver the drug user, the drug dealers gang members hell even road ragers, and all of these people fail to consider the consiquences of their actions as a result people get injured or killed. Do we deny the drunk driver a neck brace and medical attention because he is stupid and should die for his stupidity? Do we deny the drug user rehabilitation because they are stupid and shouldnt have started in the first place? Do we deny the gang member and drug dealer the medical attention they need as a result of thier stupidity around guns? Do we say to the smoker "you knew the risks, get over it yourself or die like the stupid filth you are"? And do we sit back and let the road ragers anger consume him and laugh as he tries to cut off the wrong person and ends up in the ditch burning alive? See I am a mean person But I am not that mean. Yes it is stupid to get infected with the aids virus, but guess what, it is as stupid to have sex without the intent on creating a child! If you are going to continue to have recreational sex with your wife, even with protection (condoms break) than are you to blame for getting infected? Although it is their (that sounds mean, I hate to leave AiDS patients out in the cold like that but as I am not one I have to refer to them in the cold impersonal third person) responsibility, they are intitled to treatment. Without it the average aids patient has 5 years, with it 11. Yes it is sad that your wife might be infected but thats what happens in a high risk job. My mother works in simmilar cercomstances in a prison were she could be infected as an attack on her person and no by accident and me living with her and her me we are both at a higher risk, as one slip at the chopping board and an open wound can get us both killed! Does that mean that I say or she says "well if you insist on such behavior you must find a new place to live"? No I wouldnt do that to her and although I am closeted, I am sure she wouldnt do that to me (although as with everything there is room for error which is the insertanty that I refer to when I mention the rejection we (as gay people) feel even if there isnt a cause.) And there its not so much a matter of choice as to being infected. What you are saying is that you think that they people who are hurt by their own ignorance should be left out in the cold? I have seen what that does to people, they try anything to survive and you might just have to support their treatment when they are locked up as that is the only place they can get proper care with no money.

I am gay, that means that I am in a high risk zone (well not yet, but I keep my fingers crossed!). And ya know what, condoms break, through no ignorance of fault of the users. It happens. Ya know what else? Homosexuals have a higher suicide rate than any other minoraty, why? Because of the rejection that I see demonstrated here. It is sad but true, and your saying that it is their fault for getting sick, they should deal with it. Double standered here, would you say to a malarea patient "oh thats too bad you should have worn you masqueto net, now get out of my site" cause what I understand is that malarea is also transmited through blood (ok through masquetos that drink it but still you are in a danger zone if you are around a malarea patient and masquetos)

And no one is loosing rights! We fight for all rights not just our own. Your wife took a high risk job that puts her in danger of infection by all sorts of nasty things, some alot worse than AIDS! It's her right to walk away just as it is your right to walk away. AIDS patients didnt take that right from her, she chose to be a medical profesional so it was her choice, no one put a needle to her head! Ya know what?! I too make that same choice! I will be a Medical profesional and that is my choice, that increases my chances of getting infected but at a 50/50 already (as I am celabit at the moment I am at 1/100000000000000000 or so but that will change cause I am not going to hide in fear under my bed terrified to even dream of my desires) I Think I can afford to push my luck. But ya know what? I will face descrimination in that field, why? Because I am high risk, a gay! No one wants a gay doctor... And this fact, that I have something to strive for, is likely to prevent me from doing something stupid like 'doing like they do on the discovery channel' which is what alot of the infected lack (most but not all) so they engage in high risk activity because they feel their lives as worthless and it is in part because of the rejection they feel in the world as they are gay and have no place in this sociaty (as we see it, we have no place, other than fashion designer) because no few are willing to stand with us, and demand equal rights (and not meaning to take away from your rights, but as you see it... an even playing field would probably feel like having no rights)

If I offended any one sorry that was not my intention, although I am abit annoyed with the topic I am posting on so something in the above is likely to offend someone, for that I appologize, tell me and I will see if I can clarify it, if i cant... I guess it is not a point worth descussing so I will delete it.

[Lavender]

xjsjaglvr, I'm sorry your family is going through all this. I've read through your anger & I can see the point you're making. I've never thought about the side you've presented. In the media, you always hear how the patients are suffering. I admit that I've never thought about the actual health care workers and how it affects them and their families. I will light some incense for you and your wife & send you my good thoughts.

[mol]

Originally posted by xjsjaglvr
See because of the law, my wife doesn't have the RIGHT to refuse these people, no, she has RESPONSIBILITIES. She has to see them, to take care of them. They have the rights and we have to deal with it. I want my wife and my family to have rights, the right to say sorry, I will not care for you, you were stupid, nature is thinning the herd and you are about to be culled. Will it happen? No, why, because my wife isn't as uncaring of her responsibilities as some of her patients are. She will go to work each day, she will get blood tests every month for the next 6 months, we will have safe sex (using condoms) at home, and deal with this.
So to all you folks who have marched in the streets for your rights, the right to ignore warnings, to say the hell with condoms, to stick that next needle in your arm, to demand more tax dollars to save your ass because you made stupid choices. Remember there are those of us that loose our rights every day to deal with your rights. One day we will decide that we won't give up those rights anymore. Then what will you do?
Jag

Wrong my friend. Your wife CHOSE her profession. If she doesnt want to deal with HIV/AIDS patients then she needs to chose another profession or transfer/change positions.

And on the statement "One day we will decide that we won't give up those rights anymore. Then what will you do?"

I suppose I would answer. I would go to someone else.

[Danustouch]

Often, when we are being ruled by an emotional reaction to a situation, such as the one that Xjag is going through right now, it is easy to skip over some of the opposing views, opposing facts, and "shades of Grey" in every situation. In my opinion, though I may not agree with everything that xjag said, we need to have compassion for him. His opinion may not have seemed compassionate, either..but..His wifes' life, and his relationship with her, are kinda hanging in the balance here. How many of us would choose political correctness, in a situation such as Xjag is in? I'm not saying that any of you wouldn't...but..what I'm saying is that it is not hard to see where xjags words are coming from. The feeling that he cannot protect those he loves from the harm that could come to them, maybe? A feeling of futility? When we feel futile..when we feel helpless..when we feel that we are completely overwhelmed by a situation, and that it is spiraling out of control, we say things that we would *normally* try to rationalize, and that we normally..would not say. But..when you are scared, and when you are hurt...you don't rationalize your feelings. You just need to vent them. Sometimes..when I'm angry with my husband, and we fight...I think to myself.."you are such a jerk. I don't know how I ever wound up with you. I wish I hadn't met you.". But..I don't mean it. It's an emotional response. A first response, when I am being ruled by passion. I don't take the time to slow down, and rationalize it. It just pops into my head, and I rationalize it after.

And xsjag did say, that he was ranting, and angry. And that he didn't *Mean* to offend, but that he just needed to get those dark thoughts, those dark emotions..out.

Sometimes, when a loved one dies, we get angry at that loved one for leaving us behind. And we actually go through a point in our grief..where we feel FURIOUS. But..we don't mean it. Inside, we are aching. I think that that is what is happening to xsjag, here.

Let's try to have some compassion for HIM....

There are predjudiced people in this world. Homophobic people in this world. Yes. And it's very sad. But sometimes, we need to find the underlying causes of their anger, their hatred, and their predjudices, and try to soothe the wounds that make them that way.

I'm in no way stating that xjag is a homphobe, or a racist. What I'm saying, is that the anger and the frustration, and the hatred that he seemed to be expressing in his post..has a very deep emotional root under it. Fear. We...as compassionate individuals, need to address that fear, and show compassion for him.

Contempt Breeds Contempt. Compassion, breeds compassion.

Xsjag..I will be lighting a candle for you and your wife tonight. And if you need to talk, I'm available on AIM at "danustouch". My thoughts are with you.

[Illuminatus]

Wow, sucks to be you jag.

I sympathize with your viewpoint, but I can't think of any course of action that can improve matters. Maybe when an HIV+ patient walks into a hospital, we just cap them in the head. But that wouldn't work, since they would then keep their status a secret and lie to their doctors. But so many do anyway, so maybe that's not such a loss?.. And for those of you who think I'm joking, well, I'm not. I would happily cap as many people in the head as I deemed necessary if it meant the survival of myself or my hypothetical wife. Yes, you too.

Lawmakers are sympathizing with you though. Just a few months ago, a man was convicted for attempted murder, with HIV as his weapon of choice. AIDS "victims" for once, are finally losing their protected status. They are being treated as what many of them are - irresponsable, wreckless people who knowingly endanger the lives of innocents.

Also, your wife can quit. You wouldn't catch me working in a high-risk situation, be it medical, industrial, military, whatever.

- Ill

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by mato
Yes it is stupid to get infected with the aids virus, but guess what, it is as stupid to have sex without the intent on creating a child! If you are going to continue to have recreational sex with your wife, even with protection (condoms break) than are you to blame for getting infected?

So according to you, you can't be infected by HIV if you are engaging in reproductive sex, and its only people who take part in recreational sex are at risk. You need to study a bit more if you're going to be a doctor. Of course, for gays, all sex is recreational sex, but that doesn't make your statement any more true.

So, to answer your question, monogamous, responsible straight people are NOT to blame for getting infected.



Double standered here, would you say to a malarea patient "oh thats too bad you should have worn you masqueto net, now get out of my site" cause what I understand is that malarea is also transmited through blood (ok through masquetos that drink it but still you are in a danger zone if you are around a malarea patient and masquetos)


That's a loaded analogy. First, malaria is treatable, and rarely fatal. It strikes more or less randomly, and is very rarely a result of irresponsible activity, whereas AIDS almost always is.


If I offended any one sorry that was not my intention, although I am abit annoyed with the topic I am posting on so something in the above is likely to offend someone, for that I appologize, tell me and I will see if I can clarify it, if i cant... I guess it is not a point worth descussing so I will delete it.

What I dislike is how you and Danustouch are trying to make this a conversation about intolerance to homosexuals, when that's not the case. It really has very little to do with homophobia and more to do with self-preservation and the problem of irresponsable individuals endangering the lives of bystanders.

- Ill

[Danustouch]

Ummmm..Illuminatus..Misinterpreting me again. I never thought it WAS about homophobia. But..I interpreted Mato's post, to mean that HE felt it was a bit biased, and homophobic. So my "Yes, there are homophobes out there" ...was followed up by..."I'm not saying xsjag is a homophobe". Because, I don't think he is. However, his comments did reflect a really good deal of anger. And part of it was, toward the individuals within the gay and bi community, as well as those using IV drugs...who were not responsible acting people. So..you completely missed my point, Illuminatus. I don't think he's a homophobe at all. And I don't think his issue is about homophobia. I think it could have possibly been interpreted by some to be homophobia...and I wanted to remind people, that Xsjag is in a state of really high emotion..and that what people THINK he said, he probably didn't..or at least..he didn't "Mean".

[lucidfire]

I think it's rather convenient to fascists in general that Aids and many of these modern illnesses always seem to start in Africa and then spread in very particular means, targeted at very particular cultures. I guess if you're going to blame aids on homosexuals, what is there to say about cancer and what causes cancer: cells that refuse to die when their time comes

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by lucidfire
I think it's rather convenient to fascists in general that Aids and many of these modern illnesses always seem to start in Africa and then spread in very particular means, targeted at very particular cultures. I guess if you're going to blame aids on homosexuals, what is there to say about cancer and what causes cancer: cells that refuse to die when their time comes

Cancer is cauced cells that have had their DNA damaged by UV radiation, free radicals or other means, and begin doing jobs that they are not supposed to do, often reproducing wildly and creating tissue far beyond their normal scope which ends up undermining the body's normal healthy functioning.

While cells generally DO die when their DNA is damaged, I find your analogy as inaccurate as it is pointless.

[~**foxglove**~]

I'm very sorry to hear what you and your wife are going through right now xjsjaglvr; it only serves to remind me how "unfair" (for want of a better word) life can be at times. Although I think some of what you said was in anger and a little over-generalised, (hence the grumbling of a few posters around here, hehe) I know that I myself would rant to the heavens in a similar fashion if such a thing happened to me or someone I love. I suppose that the best I can offer you is to say, try to use this positively in your life and in your perception, even though it's a terrible thing to go through. Take care of yourself, okay? :(

[kittiepoetrygod]

But that is still not a reason to be so ... that! I'll have bring up some of the major problems i've had with it.


My wife got stuck again today, She sees patients at a high risk peri-natal center. High risk means older women, certain chronic health problems, and unfortunately AIDS. Whenever another OB-GYN gets an AIDS patient they dump them onto a high risk center. No use risking their lives over an AIDS patient. AIDS is automatically high risk. Now sometimes in "the heat of battle" so to speak when even the best trained people are working on a soon to be mom, even one known to have AIDS, sharps, (needles) can be missed and the next thing you know someone gets stuck. All the latex gloves and face shields in the world are meaningless. Now it is six months of blood testing again, and living with a sword over us.

When working at a high risk center, normally one is a a slightly higher risk for things like that. Mistakes happen ... if she really is fed up with it she should find a new job. Or a new area of that center to work in. She chooses to put her life in risk for those that are dying, to make them comfortable. If she were to get AIDS, i think that she would be glad that she did the same thing which people are likely to do for her. Its her choice.

Trying not be be insensitive.




In spite of what AIDS activists will tell you it is not regular hetero-sexuals who are getting AIDS. AIDS, and I will agree with them on this is a terrible thing to have and die from. The sad fact is that every AIDS patient my wife has seen all these years had either a Bi-sexual partner or was an inter-venous drug user or their partner was.

Define regular. They sound like normal people. Maybe their tolerance is a little more above what is seen to be normal, but thats the only difference i can see in 2 of 3 examples. You're jugding and generalising, to things i utterly dispise. Whats worse is that you're juding and generalising someone who knows someone who knows your wife.

FACT: Having a bisexual partner doesn't make you bisexual. Implying that it does is just plain ignorance.

FACT: Your partner's way of life has nothing do with your sexuality or your drug use. Sexuality is attraction, and your drug use is your choice, your partners is theirs. Perhaps they didn't find out that their partner was a user? You seem very quick to condemn.



FACT:
What about my rights, the right to make love with my wife for the next 6 months without fear, what about the right of my wife to watch our daughter grow up.

That is one of the most self-centered comments i've ever heard. You are whining about your wife's choice. Talk to her! Don't whine about the people that she chooses to help. They deserve all those same things to, but you would begrudge it of them for their partner's or their own misfortune! On something that isn't even positive!


She will go to work each day, she will get blood tests every month for the next 6 months, we will have safe sex (using condoms) at home, and deal with this.

Condoms break 18% of the time. Thats not safe. Maybe other people make the same sort of comment, and thats how they get aids. That number is almost 1 out of 5 times. Think about that.


Remember there are those of us that loose our rights every day to deal with your rights. One day we will decide that we won't give up those rights anymore. Then what will you do?

AKA one day we will decide that we don't respect you're rights as humans anymore. That is right down there with some of the comments hitler made.

In conclusion, i am at a loss for how you are your wife get along, if this is how you feel about her compassion for human beings.

[Illuminatus]

Woah, that's cool!

I can make statements facts just by saying

FACT:

in front of them! That's so cool... let's try it..

FACT: 18% of all condoms break.

Wow, I just changed reality! Heh... seriously though, what kittiepoetrygod DOESN'T tell you, is that 95% of that 18% he mentions are water-balloon accidents, and not intercourse related :)

Finally, I would caution anyone accepting sex advice or statistics from a virgin. Just good policy folks.

[mol]

This one is going to be heated.

Keep it civil.

Thanks.

[Danustouch]

I am still wondering where the compassion for Xsjag is going to kick in.

We're all worried that HE is not being compassionate towards other..and yet, some of the replies to him, were the most Uncompassionate things I've ever heard.

I really hate hypocrisy.

Xsjag is going through an incredible personal issue, a very deeply painful, and confusing experience. With a lot of fear, attatched to it. Whether or NOT everything (or anything, for that matter), that he said is a Fact, it is how he's FEELING right now.

I'd like to know how you would all be reacting if this happened to YOUR mate. Some men couldn't hack it. They'd try to force their wives to change professions. Or..they simply wouldn't stay married to someone who put their own life at risk, for others. Xsjag is obviosly a wonderful guy, who loves his wife more than life itsself. No wonder this is hurting him so deeply..and frightening him so badly..and making him say things that he probably wouldn't normally say. To me, it sounds like Xsjags wife, is his world. So...back off of him for a minute, and just sit back and wonder how YOU would react, how you would be feeling in similar circumstances.

And if you still come up smelling like roses. Try and realize that not everyone has the same mentality. We all have different' coping mechanisms. This is Xsjags.

Try a little compassion. For cryin' out loud.

If this were an excercise in a psychology class, and I were the professor, I'd give some of you a big resounding "F"..and make sure you never got your liscences. ;)

[Myst]

Some statistics perhaps?

"Approximately 40,000 new HIV infections occur each year in the United States, about 70 percent among men and 30 percent among women. Of these newly infected people, half are younger than 25 years of age.(4,5)

Of new infections among men in the United States, CDC estimates that approximately 60 percent of men were infected through homosexual sex, 25 percent through injection drug use, and 15 percent through heterosexual sex. Of newly infected men, approximately 50 percent are black, 30 percent are white, 20 percent are Hispanic, and a small percentage are members of other racial/ethnic groups.(5)

Of new infections among women in the United States, CDC estimates that approximately 75 percent of women were infected through heterosexual sex and 25 percent through injection drug use. Of newly infected women, approximately 64 percent are black, 18 percent are white, 18 percent are Hispanic, and a small percentage are members of other racial/ethnic groups"

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/aidsstat.htm

28,000 men contract it yearly, and 12,000 women. 16,800 men contract it through homosexual sex - that means 42% of the total. 7000 men and 3000 women (10,000) contract it through drug use - thus 25% of the total. That means 67% total. Those are numbers, not opinions, conjectures, or hurt feelings, but facts.

[Myst]

Before someone has a tantrum, I'm not saying people should stop loving who they do or doing what they want in the least. All I did was copy and paste some statistics and interpret some numbers.

I don't deal well with arguing with people who have opinions based on their feelings or biases. Numbers are numbers.

I posted it due to the fact that Jag said "In spite of what AIDS activists will tell you it is not regular hetero-sexuals who are getting AIDS. AIDS, and I will agree with them on this is a terrible thing to have and die from ".

Yes condoms break but the real problem is all the people who don't use them, and who share needles. Imagine how substantially reduced these numbers would be if people carefully used condoms, stopped sharing needles, and got tested regularly and between partners? Honestly I think it would make a HUGE difference. No one needs to stop loving anyone, I just wish everyone was more responsible!

Jag, I can imagine it is frustrating for you two when you're so careful and responsible. To use condoms in case, and to understand the importance of testing, and to not engage in casual unprotected sex... *sigh* and *still* have to deal with it.. I don't know what you can do, she probably can't be convinced to quit. Also, sharing needles, I can't believe people still do that, seriously. What are people thinking !!??

[kittiepoetrygod]

Ill: my source didn't mention that part, lol. Condoms as water balloons filled with what?

Mol: Wasn't it heated from the start?

Myst: As of what year? What is the fastest growing way of getting AIDs? What are the percentages of men and women actually having sex?

[Myst]

Click the link sparky pants :)

[Laiste]

Kittypoetrygod...click on the link Myst provided and read the article...it gives dates and an unbelievable amount of information.

Myst...I have to agree with you. The facts are out there. Maybe we can all find a way to be compasionate to the people on both sides of the fence. We can't turn our backs on the people living with and dying of AIDS but we also have to support the health care workers who provide the care for these patients. I know many people in the health care industry who have been in jag's and his wife's situation...that six months can be like hell. Waiting for the end result. The anger is appropriate and not at all unfounded. It is difficult to look at someone who MAY HAVE knowingly put their lives at risk and tell yourself day after day that you have to help them! Then again I know people who have suffered and died from AIDS related illnesses and the years it took for that to happen were like hell!! It is difficult to look that person in the eye and say you made your mistakes and I won't/cant' help you!

Jag, I hope that all turns out well for you and your wife...Blessings!

[Myst]

Originally posted by kittiepoetrygod
Ill: my source didn't mention that part, lol. Condoms as water balloons filled with what?

Condoms as water balloons filled with water. They fill them and see how many leak or burst.

[talamh]

Cpmpassion goes both ways.

HIV/AIDS is not an exclusively gay/lesbian/bisexual disease.

Heterosexuals also engage in high-risk sexual behaviour.

Water-baloon tests on condoms are accurate in predicting strength-of-materials failures. Ask an engineer.

Xjag needs to say to his wife what he has said to us... and listen to her response.

Is there anyone here who has NEVER indulged in high-risk behaviour?

If no one ever worked in high-risk jobs the world would be a nasty place to live.

We all need compassion and forgiveness.

Xjag is blessed to have a partner who is so compassionate and caring.

bb talamh

ps my son is a doctor who works in ER. This is something he faces all the time.. and he worked damn hard to get there, knowing that this was part of it. Some healthcare professionals are like that.... thank Goddess.

[mato]

xjsjaglvr, sorry about that jumpen on ya like that, I hope all turns out well for your wife and you.


ill

So according to you, you can't be infected by HIV if you are engaging in reproductive sex, and its only people who take part in recreational sex are at risk. You need to study a bit more if you're going to be a doctor. Of course, for gays, all sex is recreational sex, but that doesn't make your statement any more true.

So, to answer your question, monogamous, responsible straight people are NOT to blame for getting infected.

sorry is that what you thought i meant? It wasnt, you can get infected in any sexual situation. What I meant was simple, sex is meant for reproduction (dont infer that I am against sex that doesnt involve the possibility of creating offspring, I am not) and the enjoyment people get out of it is secondary. Any sexual intercourse that isnt designed to create life is therefore unnecessary. If some one were to get infected through unnecessary sexual incounters then that would have been stupid of them. They let their urges get the better of them and they pay dearly for it.



That's a loaded analogy. First, malaria is treatable, and rarely fatal. It strikes more or less randomly, and is very rarely a result of irresponsible activity, whereas AIDS almost always is.

So if there is no cure the people should just be tossed aside as already dead? I wasnt talking about fatalities, I was talking about infection and personal responsibility. Back in the day malaria was just as deadly. Actually malaria is alot like AIDS, heres a link http://www.astdhpphe.org/infect/yellow.html but that is beside the point.



What I dislike is how you and Danustouch are trying to make this a conversation about intolerance to homosexuals, when that's not the case. It really has very little to do with homophobia and more to do with self-preservation and the problem of irresponsable individuals endangering the lives of bystanders.

Thats interesting wasnt AIDS called GRID (Gay-Related Immune Deficiency) less than 20 years ago? It is very much a conversation about intolerance, and in turn about intolerance to homosexuals
...we just cap them in the head. And when do you start taking preventitive 'caps'? When does a false test end in the death of an uninfected person?
I would happily cap as many people in the head as I deemed necessary if it meant the survival of myself or my hypothetical wife. Yes, you too. what a lovely sentiment. Instead of striving for the cure... Ya why dont we all get guns go out and hunt down the infected, while we're at it why not go after the most likely carriers, and ya know if that isnt enough... I can see this degenerating into some one going into the village with a maltia and the war cry "Kill them all and let god sort it out!" again...

I am sorry but this is very much a tolerance issue...

[Myst]

I don't think it's a tolerance issue at all - except maybe for those who feel offended thinking it is a tolerance issue. The numbers don't lie. Everyone needs to stop sharing needles and needs to use condoms and get tested regularly.

[Yvonne Belisle]

I have a friend in Utah who has aids she contracted it from her husband in what she beleived was a one on one relationship. He had an affair that he didn't tell her about. After she got pregnant he hit her with oh by the way I have been having an affair and I have aids from it now you are going to die. She had no idea that he was cheating at all she was in a relationship she thought was a safe relationship. Although the odds are not strong a person engaging in what they thought was safe sex can be in just as much danger. People cheat on thier partners quite often and when they do so the partner has no clue this is occuring if they did it wouldn't be cheating. This has been going on for centuries and isn't simply going to stop but it does mean that not every person who contracts the disease got it due to irresponsibility.

I am sorry that people are put at risk caring for others but I am glad that they have enough love for people to do so. You have been blessed with a woman who cares that means the odds are even if she left this job she would still put her life at risk from time to time because it isn't something that someone like that simply turns off. You will both be in my prayers.

[mato]

It is a tolerance issue because these people are sick (aids patients) and they need help that is all to often denied were as others with as fatal diseases are given the treatment they need to survive. It is a tolerance issue because of the myth that only gays get aids and that it is thereby 'gods' vengence for breaking his comandments. It is a tolerance issue as Ill so elequently illistrated these PEOPLE are considered to be a waste of space. It is a tolerance issue in so much as these people are a vulnerable segment of society and if they are ignored something like what Ill was talking about could possibly happen without a second thought to the PEOPLE that are being killed for being infected with a disease. It is a tolerance issue because very few people will pay attention to numbers statistics and simmilar 'logical' conclusions and draw their own missinformed conclusions. It is a tolerance issue because if you give in to the fear and do as Ill suggested he would do if he or his theoretical wife were involved in a simmilar situation. It is a tolerance issue in the fact that these people are to either be tolerated and treated as human beings or they will fail to get tested/treatment and they willl infect and die under the fear that if they are tested positive they will be killed. It is a tolerance issue as the Tuskegee experiments are still possible to duplicate in another minority group for simmilar perposes. It is a tolerance issue so long as it is precieved to be GRID in the popular mind.

I dont see how people can miss this.

[Myst]

Sorry I don't see anyone saying "only gays get AIDS". If anything, people have been saying the exact opposite here. I also didn't see Jag saying "all these gay guys should stop having sex", nor anyone else. I also didn't see Jag saying "I don't think gays should be allowed to get help at this clinic" and in fact described how most people who DO get help there are bisexual or gay.

And as usual if you think Ill's blunt and often sarcastic comments and jokes represent the true feelings of anyoone here then I'm afraid you're mistaken.

[Myst]

"hip? as in hip hop!? what you think that I must be into hip hop because I'm a sistah or something? is that what you're saying!?"

........

"I'm just messin' with ya!"

[StormChaser]

All views that I have seen so far, are correct, and precise, from the eyes of those viewing it. I sympathise with xjag, as do I with the victims of aids.

I also understand the points made regarding gays and the discrimination and angst stemming from being homosexual.
I commend you for wanting to be a doctor, and I am proud of you for your good senses. And your compassion toward human life. Be aware of the concerns of Xjag.. as his concerns and worrys may well be the same as the concerns of your love!

To Xjag I have a couple things to say... your hurting. You feel angered, saddened, worried.. and it all boils down to blame. Who's to blame. That's just not the way the world works. "It's not fair!!!" as Sarah from Labyrinth so eloquently puts it ".. But thats just the way it is."

No I can't empathize directly, I do know the fear of thinking you could lose someone soon, or at any moment but not from the risk of aids.

Your wife is a GOOD woman. She, in her choice of profession, and her dedication to her job, shows that she puts the lives of others before her own. As a husband, I'm sure you feel the desire to protect her and your family.. and here is this thing.. that keeps comingup... that you are powerless against. The only thing left for you to do is bide time, play it safe, pray, and find someone to blame. The possibility of loss by terminal illness, and the loss of the ability to carry on "normally"... if you can just find someone to blame.. you can find a way to fix the problem.

It doesn't work like that. Theres so much more to such "simple" choices that change a life.. than good or bad, accidental or sheer irresponsibility. I won't list them, but if y ou sit back and think for a few moments I'm sure many "exceptions" to the rule will come to your head.

Perhaps.. you should talk to your wife about a carreer change.. explain to her your feelings in this.. how scared it makes you.. how angry. You obviously love her deeply, and want to share a life of LIFE with her rather than a life of worry. Perhaps you can convince her to transfer to a lower risk facility.

Blame won't stop this from happening again, nor will blind rage. Find other ways to express yourself.

Sometimes you really need to vent, I'm glad you vent(ed) here. perhaps now you can see things witha clearer, calmer eye having started releasing the flow of feelings.

[StormChaser]

AIDS women are not really high BIRTH risks... they shouldn't all be transfered to the prenatal high birth risk facility because the doctors in the generic hospital maternity wards can find a way to not deal with them.

I think that was part of X's argument that got overlooked.

First anger toward them for never taking any of th erisk themselves.

Second for it always seeming ot be his wife, his family, his way of life at stake because of the "mistakes" of others.

I didn't see anything anti-gay. What i saw was "why can't you think before you screw". I really don't think that's asking too much do you?

Yes he is going to keep on having sex with his wife with condoms.. because thats what humans do. He realizes the danger I'm sure.. but I am also sure he wants to get on with life as best he can and not let a "could be" hinder his life any more that it will indefinitely. He's TRYING not to borrow trouble, perhaps irresponsibly, or perhaps with the view that if not now it could be never before he gets to enjoy the bedside mannor of his wife.

Really folks. Back off the gay issue. that WASn't what this post was about. If you get the notion to have a rant regarding the treatment of Gays and Lesbians.. why not open a new thread.


And cut it out with the passive punches
"how can you"
"anyone who feels that.. must be.."
"i feel sorry for your.."

Cruel, oneside statements that don't do anyone any good.

[mato]

The mericle of quotes

Really folks. Back off the gay issue. that WASn't what this post was about. If you get the notion to have a rant regarding the treatment of Gays and Lesbians.. why not open a new thread.

So to all you folks who have marched in the streets for your rights, the right to ignore warnings, to say the hell with condoms, to stick that next needle in your arm, to demand more tax dollars to save your ass because you made stupid choices. Remember there are those of us that loose our rights every day to deal with your rights. One day we will decide that we won't give up those rights anymore. Then what will you do?
Jag

Ok after some serious ranting that I will spare you (lets just say that the neighbors complained as to all the noise), I will just say that I assume that this refers to homosexuals. Now I am not positive as I didnt post it but who else has their own parade?

Now I am not a psychologist but I can read... And I can draw conclusions from what I read, now these last two sentences dont so much imply as they flat out state that straights are better than gays and they (in his post it is a we so i assume they) will not be subject to any sort of equality with those they find to be beneath them and that they will continue oppressive techniques to preserve thier privliged status in Amercan society.
In the paragraph he insinuates that all AIDS patients are gay or druggies. Now I would like to refer to mysts post on the statistics but my head is exploding at the moment as I am repressing alot of rage (not all on this topic though so relax) so I need to drink some soothing tea...
Before my head explodes let me say although I would like to have a seperate topic dedicated to this subject there would be such a lack of trueth that it would be little more than an insult. Ok I am going insane now so I will try not to check any more of these posts, as I dont want to get brain goo on my computer.

mol, we need an exploding head smiley.

[Myst]

"So to all you folks who have marched in the streets for your rights, the right to ignore warnings, to say the hell with condoms, to stick that next needle in your arm, to demand more tax dollars to save your ass because you made stupid choices. Remember there are those of us that loose our rights every day to deal with your rights. One day we will decide that we won't give up those rights anymore. Then what will you do? "

Until this says "So to all you gay people, you're less then us straight people and you need to stop" it doesn't say that. Being gay is NOT about not using condoms, and it's NOT about sharing needles. That is what Jag was talking about, period.

Feel free to start a new thread on oppression/assumptions about people who aren't straight.

[Sequoia]

ok. I really think that the homophobia is climbing in this thread.

No, I havn't heard any anti-gay sentiments. But I sure have heard a lot of people defending homosexuals! If that isn't phobia, I don't know what is. Nobody's attacking you, stop jumping at the shadows.

Xjag - *BIG HUGE HUGS FOR YOU AND YOUR WIFE* She is a brave, wonderful person to have such a job. The contributations she gives is incredible, and what a wonderful person she is to do this job. It's an injustice how your wife is treated, by the other hospitals. I sincerely pray that she is allright. Please give her my best wishes and a nice big hug from me. You, too, are a wonderful person, to stay with her in such trying times. It must be stressful for you both when this happens. *hugs* May you both come through stronger, better people, and may it all turn out allright.

While I do not entirely agree with the idea of shooting every person with aids. . . I *do* think it rediculous that so many people are just going out there f*king (and yes, it's F*cking to me because they're not doing iit because of a serious loving relationship, they're just having sex to get off, and they're not even being descriminitory). It's sickening to me that so many people will have sex with anything human that moves, people who use drugs. . . I mean, come on!! At least here in California, there are clinics where you can GET CLEAN NEEDLES FOR FREE!!! You don't HAVE to share needles! FREE STERILIZED HOSPITAL NEEDLES. I mean, my GODS, how much harder can it be? Yes, people get cheated on. Protection fails. People get tricked or drunk or you name it.
But have you ever heard anyone going "ohh poor girl, she got pregnant. She only wanted a night of fun without thinking, the poor dear. And look at all these horrible people condemning her crack baby. How horrible of them!" Come on. Yes, cercomstances exist where it was not the person's fault, such as getting cheated on. But I mean. . . you CHOOSE to share needles. You CHOOSE to have unprotected sex with a complete stranger, or someone you didn't know, or didn't bother to find out about. You CHOOSE to not find out if they had any diseases or not. You CHOOSE to do this, and you deal with the consiquences.

This nurse is a brave, brave woman. Stop condemning her. This may be the only job she can get, or she may love the work she's doing. Whether she agrees with his rant or not, Xjag is MORE than entitled to rant about such a thing. I would too. Most people don't have to deal with thinking about their spouse's mortality in such a painful way for months on end, all for a "maybe."

Cut him a little slack. He has to greave far more often than we do, never knowing if it's his last year with her. Don't be so callouse.

[silverfox]

Dude, i can understand your anger and frustration but, your wife is the one who chose her prefession. Your wife knows the risks invovled in treating clinically ill patients with hiv etc. so, don't go off blaming the gays and drug users. Just as many people out there can get aids from having safe sex and being straight. I find it very ironic you are condeming people for having sex but yet, your wife may have a disease and granted condoms provide some protection they do not grauntee all saftey. If the people before time had a knoweldge of the diseases from some one they where sleeping with had they certainly who not have had sex or either risked having unprotected sex with them for that matter to and find you saying that very hypocritcal. I really hate to say this but the whole big thing about you say gays and etc are taking are rights. WHat about hate filled people like you? You people try and take away their rights not them take away our rights. You want to refuse to treat them etc. Although, if you where to get sick from hiv's you like most others would probably go crying first thing to the doctor anyway.i truely hope your wife has nothing wrong with her however, you have no right to use patients with aid's as a scapegoat.

[Myst]

*sigh*

[mato]

Puma, no one is condeming her, infact i think that I have heard nothing but applause for her. Of course I am going to attack anything that even remotely looks like a threat to me. I have to I can not show weakness to a possible enemy. They must know that I will fight and die for anything I see wrong and wish to correct, that I will not back down and infact will confront them on every level they decide to take it too. They must know that this kind of blind hatered, ignorance wont be tolerated so long as I am able to fight it.


So to all you folks who have marched in the streets for your rights, the right to ignore warnings, to say the hell with condoms, to stick that next needle in your arm, to demand more tax dollars to save your ass because you made stupid choices. Remember there are those of us that loose our rights every day to deal with your rights. One day we will decide that we won't give up those rights anymore. Then what will you do?
Jag
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


...we just cap them in the head. But that wouldn't work, since they would then keep their status a secret and lie to their doctors. But so many do anyway, so maybe that's not such a loss?.. And for those of you who think I'm joking, well, I'm not. I would happily cap as many people in the head as I deemed necessary if it meant the survival of myself or my hypothetical wife. Yes, you too.

These look like rather substantial 'shadows' to me... I would jump (have jumped) on these 'shadows' as much worse has been done with much less said.


Myst, no it doesnt say that it implys that. Ya sure he could be talking about the annual st. patties day parade but i doubt it. and no one is arguing with those points however drug addicts are not necessaraly gay so of course being gay doesnt mean to share needles.

Oh and also myst if Ill is joking i have missed it, cause see I dont find violence to be humorous, in any form commited on any one for any reason.

Ok I am off to dream land, hopefully I wont drag any of this in with me... However the pain behind my eyes say that this is going to be a long night.

[flar7]

if you're still reading this thread.(and if not, understandable)
I would ask you to spend some time with your wife going over
what you wrote in your post. If you have then I apologize for bringing this up.

It is obvious that your wife's high risk position bothers you, and
that you are helpless to protect her in that arena. As a person
who frequents hospitals a lot, I am very thankful for the nurses
there. AIDS is terrible, but there are equally bad and even worse
transmittable diseases that come through high risk places. Some
a lot more lethal or faster acting than AIDS.

I feel (and I could be wrong, often am) that AIDS is just the
dragon of the moment. If it were ebola, you would probably
have to say something then too.(my opinion)

I would recommend talking with your wife about this, and even
some outside help. It isnt about the aids, its about the risk your
wife is in daily. The fear that you now have to face for 6 mos.

I pray that everything works out well for you and your wife.
(((HUG))) be well.

[mol]

Originally posted by Danustouch
I am still wondering where the compassion for Xsjag is going to kick in.

We're all worried that HE is not being compassionate towards other..and yet, some of the replies to him, were the most Uncompassionate things I've ever heard.

I feel for jag. I also gave him solid solutions and feedback from my perspective. Sorry...I dont feel sorry for hurt Dragons when they are breathing fire. When the flame goes out then maybe I can be more consoling (if that is how it is spelled.)



Oh.

When did this become a gay defense thread? No one has really bashed gays...have they?

[Old Witch]

I read this thread 3 times in the last 24 hours to get my reply. So, here goes. Your stress level must be off the scale. And I understand stress. I was a high risk mother (3 times, terrible asthma). I appreciate the work of high risk caregivers and applaud your wifes' courage. My prayers will be especially strong and frequent for your wife, your daughter, and you. So, much love and thanks from my family to yours.
Old Witch

[Danustouch]

Mol...i just have to point out something...

"I don't feel compassion for dragons while they're breathing fire"..

So..there's a condition on your compassion. Hmmm...

And yet Xjag has a condition on his compassion (that the people his wife treats, should be more responsible with their sex life, and drug use)...and he gets hopped all over.

Interesting.

Compassion, is one thing in life that should not have conditions. It either strikes you in a moment, and moves you, or it doesn't. But..it should not have conditions.

Just my opinion.

[mol]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Mol...i just have to point out something...

"I don't feel compassion for dragons while they're breathing fire"..

So..there's a condition on your compassion. Hmmm...

And yet Xjag has a condition on his compassion (that the people his wife treats, should be more responsible with their sex life, and drug use)...and he gets hopped all over.

Interesting.

Compassion, is one thing in life that should not have conditions. It either strikes you in a moment, and moves you, or it doesn't. But..it should not have conditions.

Just my opinion.

Well, what can I say...it was a bad quote to use. I guess it doesnt make the point I was trying to make. I feel bad for jag and his wife. I feel bad that they have to go through the crap they will in the coming months. On the other hand, I dont feel sorry for his wife at all. Its her profession. If she doesnt want to deal with AIDS patients she DOES NOT HAVE TO. No one has a gun to her head.

So, while the quote was bad...I still think you are twisting my words around. My opinion needs no interpretation. Its not a poem or a puzzle. Its right there.

If jag wanted nothing but compassion, then maybe he should have talked about just the issue at hand and left his opinions out of it.

[Old Witch]

Maybe when a Dragon is breathing fire is when he needs compassion most?

[Danustouch]

My point exactly.

Listen..Xjags words may have made a LOT Of people angry, and been taken the wrong way to many. But the fact is, when we show contempt for him in his anger, it only serves to aggrivate the situation, more.

If we show him compassion, regardless of what words he may have spouted in his anger, and in his pain..not only do we do something wonderful for ourselves (by NOT allowing emotion to rule our action), but we also ease the healing process in him.

He's feeling angry right now. Do we need to compound that anger?

I will say this. I have ALWAYS been an advocate for gay rights. I have many homosexual and bisexual friends. I hate it when they are bashed due to their sexuality...because I know that they are humans, just like all of us. And deserving of understanding, and compassion. Just as Xjag is deserving of understanding, and compassion. He didn't aim his anger at homosexuals. He aimed his anger against individuals who have irresponsible sex, and who use dirty needles. I am quite sure that xjag would agree, that homosexuals, and bisexuals, as well as Heterosexuals, who are responsible about sex (ie, using protection, using discernment, getting tested regularly) are not to blame for what his wife must endure.

Xjags point, to me....is that we all need to be responsible human beings. Yes, there are occasions where the person is not to blame. Yes, there are husbands who cheat, and then transfer diseases to their spouse, and vice versa. Yes, there are occasions of rape. Yes, there are people who've contracted AIDS through blood transfusions, etc. But the vast majority of AIDS cases, as proven by the statistics that Myst provided, is that AIDS is most frequently cases of people not being responsible for their behavior. Sharing needles, having unprotected sex, having sex with multiple partners, etc. His point was that we, as a global community, cannot only be concerned with our own pleasure. We must think about our actions, and how they might impact others. Yes..his tone was harsh. And bitter. But he is facing a harsh, and bitter, reality.

So for just a minute, it might be a good idea, to stop for a minute, and digest that point. And realize that we need to step back, and see the "Big picture" instead of reading between the lines.

Would any of us argue that we need to be more responsible, and more concerned about the lives of others, not just our own pleasure in life?

In the meantime, though his words were angry and bitter, and, I could even say "hostile", in some ways...why can't we just draw back and try to see the HEART of the matter. His heart. His emotions, his fears.

Put aside our political agendas until a later date...and simply excercise compassion. Compassion doesn't need to be warranted. By anything. It is independent of "worthiness". Compassion is a quality which transcends limits. And that is when it is MOST beautiful. When it is not.."earned". Compassion is a gift from the heart.

[mol]

Well, jag....it seems I cannot discuss this anymore. But I will lend another piece to you.

I know how you feel. My wife is an RN and I live in constant fear that she is going to bring something home to us. I know where you are coming from. If my comments upset, I am sorry. Be well...I am sure everything will turn out just fine.

I will light a candle for you and your wife.

[mato]

Originally posted by Old Witch
Maybe when a Dragon is breathing fire is when he needs compassion most?

Yes, maybe, but you try being compassionate when they are... You play with fire you are going to get burned. (ack did I just use that tripe?! ah well it works it works.)

[StormChaser]

Originally posted by mato


Yes, maybe, but you try being compassionate when they are... You play with fire you are going to get burned. (ack did I just use that tripe?! ah well it works it works.)

Wear an inflamable suit, get ready to be singed, or ask someone else who can handle the flames better to tend to their extinquishing. Do not feed the fire because you cannot tame it.

[Old Witch]

Maybe, just maybe that fire is an illusion,You see through it and get to the heart of the matter.

[mol]

Bah!

People. The fire analogy was a mistake. Please stop running with it or I will edit my post and you people will sound like you are talking in gibberish.

:p

[Myst]

I don't hand people compassion regardless of what some of you seem to think. I don't appreciate being told what feelings to have either, btw. The facts are that Jag was upset about his wife possibly contracting AIDS (AGAIN) from people who don't have safe sex and share needles. I understand his feelings. For those of you who have decided to turn this thread into "he's bashing me! he's bashing me!" I feel really bad for you that you're that selfish.

[TheWordWitch]

Aren't we a bunch of homophobic pagans trying oh so hard to show the world how compassionate we are. Are you sure ya'll aren't a bunch of guilt-ridden Fundamentalist Christians?

Xjags post had absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality, bi-sexuality or sexuality in any manner of speaking, other than irresponsible sexuality. And look at all these morality stricken posts.

As if f*cking the nearest donkey is a right - a protected right!!! Um..... no, it's not a right, it's a priviledge, and one left to those of us who know how to f*ck donkeys without catching flies in our mouths!!!

Xjag- I'm really sorry for your predictament, however.....

Welcome to Democracy.
"For the Good of the Many at the Expense of the Few"
Your wife (the few) protects the rest of us (the many) from the risk of further infection by doing her damndest to contain the disease and cure who she can.

But then we are led by the nose to the obvious question:
What do we do when the Healer can no longer Heal?

I am a proponent for an Infectious Disease public database. Anyone caught not informing thier intimate family members or sexual partners of the risk will automatically be punished as the criminal they are. As for the husband who infects his unknowing wife.... shit, that guy ought to be castrated, tied to a tree and left to rot - talk about the ultimate in spousal abuse!!!

I have more homosexual and lesbian friends than I do straight friends. It was the number one pet peeve of my ex "why can't you have any normal friends?" And I can tell you that not one of them is HIV positive nor have any of them contracted AIDS. Why? Because each and every one of them is responible. And each and every one of them (including myself) is most likely the sluttiest, perviest, bed hopping individual on the planet - and yet not one of us has ever contracted so mush as a genital wart.

Responsibility!!!!

Xjag is right - sexual irresponsibility and intraveneous drug use does not give you any rights - it should be a qualifying action to have right taken away.



Be careful Illuminatus.... I'm one of you, and wouldn't hesitate to cap your ass either.

[xjsjaglvr]

I would like to thank all of you who have offered your support. I should also clarify some points. Neither myself or my wife are anti-gay, quite the contrary we have a number of people in our circle of friends who have lifestyles different then ours. Even they express dismay at the choices some people seem to make with out regard as to the effects those choices will have on others. My wife cannot refuse to treat patients, it is illegal and immoral. High risk centers like the one she is at for years meant that the patient had factors which posed significant risk to the patient or child they were carrying. These might be mothers age, diabetes, multiple fetuses, or invitro fertilization. Aids, as it spread among population groups moved into the area of expectant mothers. Rather then deal with this problem which places not only the patient but the medical staff at risk many have chosen to declare them high risk patients and send them to high risk centers. I would be lying if I said we had never considered her changing careers. She has been offered jobs in other centers where we wouldn't have to deal with this. My wife loves her job and the staff, and won't leave. We will deal with this as with any other crisis. Fortunately the odds are in our favor, it just doesn't give you comfort though when it first happens.
Jag

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Myst


Condoms as water balloons filled with water. They fill them and see how many leak or burst.

Actually, we drop them from rooftops. Thats why the fatality rate is so high!!!

[Wyrdsister]

Wow, what a raucus ride through this thread. My head's still spinning...

xjsjaglvr, I put my spiritual arms around you and your wife. :wah: This is a difficult time for both of you and I'm praying for her health! I'm glad that the odds are in her favour and I hope you both get through this time just like you have in times before.

I share you anger at irresponsible people. A good friend of mine was raped many years ago, became pregnant and contracted HIV. All I wanted to do was castrate her rapist! (okay, maybe something more severe, but whatever) I understand what it must feel like for you and your wife, to be so angry and fearful and to have no single point or person do direct the anger and fear as it feels like the problem is all around, systematic, not just one person or procedure.

I don't know if any of that made sense :confused:, but I just want to know that I feel for your wife and you, and I'll be holding both of you in my prayers.

Goddess Bless you both,

Wyrdsister

[Lunamoth]

....but I'm sorry that you and your wife are going through this. It seems really unfair, the crap that falls in our laps sometimes. And while I can't speak to some of the satements made in anger I am *sure* they are that, made in anger. Not to mention it is your right to have opinions that may not be politically correct. I have many that aren't either. 'nuff on that.


To others: I started making statements about the job thing, but I see now that Jag has responded to it, so I'll leave the topic out.

And as far as breaking condoms....statistics never lie but statisticans do. Meaning? I don't trust stats that aren't accompanied by research and cited resources (such as what Myst did earlier). Yes, even on something as small as this. I've been sexually active for a looooong time now and not once, have I had a condom break. Does this mean I never will? No. Doesn't mean it's imminent either.

peace,
lunamoth

[Lunamoth]

Originally posted by mato
Any sexual intercourse that isnt designed to create life is therefore unnecessary. [/B]

Wow, my husband would sorely disagree with you on that. Actually most men would, from my experiences. Sounds rather like Xtian thinking, if you really think about it. I mean, sex that isn't necessarily for procreation can be relaxing, can be a bonding experience...can be lots of very healthy things. The idea that humans choose to have sexual relations for pleasure, that's an evolutionary thing. I somehow recall that pigs also do it for recreation, so I don't think we're entirely alone...or was it dolphins?

[StormChaser]

Luna:
Statistics mean one thing: There is a risk, a possibility.

It's really up to you personally to decide if those risk are worth it to you. A lot of people don't even bother to find out what risks they are at when it comes to sex. I know I didn't when I first got started.

sad, scary truth. I'm 19, nearly 20. I've been sexually active since I was 16. I've had 13 partners, male and female. I am quite clean, thankfully. I didn't know "all the risks". I knew about aids, I knew about pregnancy. There are a million other diseases I didn't know about.. and a whole lot a more about myself I didn't know about.. that I should have before I embarked on my sexual life beyond my first partner *we were engaged, quite mongomous and VERY virgin* But life happens. People do make dumb choices without thinking. Unfortunately some of those choices can be life altering in not so positive ways, and what you don't know CAN hurt you.

Above statistics what people really need to do, is share information, share the truth, set up questions for themselves.. who they are and where they want to go. And if you can't get there from here by making certain mistakes, or if an accident should happen.. you should judge how important putting yourself in such a risky place, is really worth to you.

[StormChaser]

luna: Dolphins and the Bonobo ape i think it is, could be a chimp or gorilla.

But they have sex for pleasure. So does my friends fixed cat.
She even does it missionary style *now THAT is unnatural*

I've also met a pair of gay dogs.. that was interesting. Never quite heard sounds like that..


anyways.. yeah.. Sex is actually very good for humans, like chocolate, a little sex does A LOT for the body beyond giving it sexual gratification.

It signals certain hormones, it can help clear up skin, help your metabolism and a whole bunch of other things.

[flar7]

we would have died out. It is pleasureable so as to encourage it.

Christian doctrine doesnt say that sex is for procreation only, they
stress marriage. The procreation aspect is a relatively new
concept. You dont hear the church scream about the man or
woman of a marriage getting "fixed" surgically.(didnt want to spell
the terms).

They see condoms as bad because they think it promotes
promiscuity, and so the idea, you "mate to procreate" came
around. But you cant find it in the bible. or at least I cant.

Most, I repeat, most men hate condoms and will refuse to wear
them if they can get away with it. You could have a whole thread
about why they wont...(biological drive, lack of sensation, allergies, etc.)

Guys will risk it, gamblers at heart. (I am not saying this is right,
just that its so with the fellow guys that I know. Myself included.)
You have to make us use them! Perhaps some more tech
advances in building the perfect condom...

Just a few opinions on sex, condoms, and us guys mentality.

[LilydePlume]

the size of the holes in the latex are bigger than the size of the virus molecule. The molecule can pass right thru the holes in the latex condoms.
Just thought I would pass on some information normally only given to the educators.
BB
LP

[StormChaser]

I'm a woman, in general, I detest condoms. It deprives ME of sensation.

Actual statistics http://www.plannedparenthood.org/bc/CONTRACHOICES.HTM

You'll see, funnily enough, with proper use, withdrawl is just about as effective as a condom.

Granted we're just talking pregnancy here. Not disease.

[Sequoia]

o.o whoah I did not know that!

LOL did it say what the chances are of pregnancy if there *isn't* a method used? I *know* it's not 100% of the time, otherwise this world would've been overrun before we invented the wheel! hehe

ick, condoms x.x speaking from the female perspective. . . YUCK! It takes out time, it's very un-romantic to me (granted, more romantic than a baby, but still -_-; ), and, at least for me, it's VERY uncomfortable. I hate the sensation, it practically ruins the experience for me.

But if it's all you've got, or you're not with just one person. . it's a good idea.

[StormChaser]

assuming you both have healthy sex drives, and you do it on the day you are ovulating *thats 1 day out of the cycle*
you have a 25% chance of getting pregnant.

Which means that should you be having sex completely at random like most people not trying to concieve.. you have at the most a 25% chance of getting pregnant.

Of course, if your like me, superfertile.. you can triple those odds
*laughs* runs in the native american side of the family.

[Angelwulfe]

i'm not going to say much because i don't want get too emotionally involved and the points i would make have already been made, but i just wnated to say i'm sorry this happened to your wife i can why your so angry after all her profession is greatly disturbing your personal and family life. i also just wanted to say that your wife did choose a high risk career in order to help people (even seeminly non desrserving people at times) with serious health problems. good luck.

[Myst]

Originally posted by LilydePlume
the size of the holes in the latex are bigger than the size of the virus molecule. The molecule can pass right thru the holes in the latex condoms.

Read the other thread on this, or the Fertility Forum.

Though you ovulate one day out of the month, you are fertile for several days before and after. Nailing down your ovulation date from month to month is difficult. Further, sperm can exist within the womb for up to 7 days. Basically it's a crapshoot for half the month.

http://www.stormpages.com/sisterzeus/basics.htm