Racisim in Paganism

[Sage Rainsong]

I have recently been thinking about racism in paganism. When I was very Naive I used to think that pagans were all open minded and weren't racist. Boy was I wrong!! (not just from this forum but various Asatru groups as well) It really sickens me. By the way most Asatru groups are extremely non- racist Im not refering to them. But I got to thinking about it. Many ethinic specific groups are trying to maintain or reconstruct various cultural religions. How important do you think ethnicity of your ancestors is when practicing another religion outside of your culture? Does a certain degree of racism matter?

Personally I don't think that it matters. As long as the person of the other races knows full well what they are getting into and wants to fully assimilate in it. So for example I am not Greek but if I felt a spiritual pull towards them I would expect a Hellenic group to not reject me based on my ethnicity. But I wouldn't try to get them to include Shango or something. So anyway I would love to hear some thoughts.

[Fr. INRI]

Asatru certainly isn't the only Pagan religion afflicted by racism. I worked at a small metaphysical shop for about a year and I can tell you that not only were 99.9% of my customers white, but when there was a minority customer in the store at the same time as a white, when the minority customer left, the white customer would turn to me and say something along the lines of "I didn't think any of THEM were into witchcraft." Happened nearly everytime. Damn disgusting.

[Sage Rainsong]

Asatru certainly isn't the only Pagan religion afflicted by racism. I worked at a small metaphysical shop for about a year and I can tell you that not only were 99.9% of my customers white, but when there was a minority customer in the store at the same time as a white, when the minority customer left, the white customer would turn to me and say something along the lines of "I didn't think any of THEM were into witchcraft." Happened nearly everytime. Damn disgusting.

Oh no I wasn't implying that at all. I was just reading about racism in Asatru at the time. It was purely an example. And you are right that story is disgusting. I have heard of it in wicca also because they feel its for europeans only.

[Fr. INRI]

Somepeople are just...dumb. Theres no other way to describe racists.

[ravenscape]

I think cultural or racial "ownership" of particular beliefs and practices exists, and I'm really not sure how I feel about it, to be honest. The syncretism of all New Age religions, but particularly eclectic NeoPaganism must sometimes seem like a plague of locusts to people who are attempting to preserve their ancestral cultures and religions.

In cases where people are working toward reconstruction of a semi-lost and semi-forgotten religion and culture the issues become even more muddy.

As far as who is into what, I guess I live in an area that's simply too culturally diverse to notice any major divides in who practices what.

[taijiya]

Unfortunately, it seems pretty common. Ignorant and disgusting, but common. I've encountered Wiccan purists who didn't believe people of non-white, non-European ancestry belonged in the path, and I've met Kemetics who didn't believe people of white, European ancestry belonged in that path. I'm usually doing something that someone somewhere thinks I shouldn't be doing, so those attitudes don't sit very well with me. If I were rolling my eyes any harder than I already am, I believe they might just fall out. :D


~*~taijiya~*~

[Cassie]

I voted for the first option. Race has nothing to do with spirituality.
I have actually been trying to think if there are any exeptions to this, but I don't think there are.
There are extremely spiritual people (pagan and non pagan) in all racial and ethnic groups.
Traditions may vary from one race to another, or from one ethnic or geographical group to another, but that has no bearing on spirituality itself.

[Nova]

I knew a black woman once who got alot of flack for her love of Native American religion. People just didn't see why she wouldn't just want to get into African native religion. Including some of the Native Americans she was learning from.

I personally believe that race should not be an issue. Especially in melting pots like America - the word ancestor sometimes feel moot. So many people are 25% this and 10% that. Many don't know and don't have the means to find out.

This was when I lived in Texas and she felt a connection to the land where she was raised - so Native American religion felt natural to her.

Most people are drawn to specific cultures for a reason.

But that is just in regard to learning. It might be more complicated trying to join a group. If your own ancestry is sort of unknown you are more likely to be eclectic and incorporate whatever seems to apply. You would really need to be dedicated and have a strong connection to your chosen culture. Even if that connection is not based on race.

[Xentor]

I can imagine ancestry being involved in the way you were raised, and thus influencing what you believe. When it comes to neo-paganism, I doubt that race should be important. When I'd move into a new area, I'd try and study the ways of the people in that area, and fit their practices into my own.

[Pol]

I voted for the second option. There were some religions and deities formed in the minds of racist people.
For instance, I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to be Shinto because that is the Japanese religion and is based heavily in Japanese culture, with the Japanese often being a special race even religiously (even though a lot of that came in with State Shinto).

While I think it shouldn't matter, sometimes it does.
I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to be a Rastafari because I can't reconnect to an Africa I never was a part of to begin with.

[Sun_and_Saturn]

Frankly, there can be racism in ANY religion, although there really shouldn't be. I voted for the first option. And as far as cultural differences go, my grandfather is Cherokee, yet I have no deep interest in N.A. spirituality. Actually, I haven't exactly found a name for my path yet.

[Galaxia]

Ω

[Gypsy flower]

race has nothing to do with nothing!!! except to racists!

[Renny]

I could really care less about someone's origin. Race and culture don't determine everything... life is what we make of it, and if a person dedicates themselves to another culture's spirituality, as far as I'm concerned they are of that faith.

However I do feel there's a connection within *me* between my path and my German ancestry. But that is just me, and it's equally valid for anyone else to be drawn to the northern ways.

[Pol]

I think I'm going to clarify a bit more/expound on what I said in an earlier post.

I think sometimes being at least from the same cultural background (which usually involves being of the same race) is important to understand certain religions. Also, I think it highly offensive to any religion to pick and choose from it without really understanding it. I do this myself, and it annoys even me. As such, one would then be required to be of at least the same cultural background to grasp the significance of the religion.

[Avanti]

This has bothered me also. If I go into a new age store, the owner automatically steers me towards the asian stuff in the store. Ok, so people assume things...but after trying to tell them i'm not interested and want to look at some other stuff, I get a blank look.

I do think that it's easier for you to understand a path if you have been brought up in the culture, esp if you understand the language. Like I can understand Chinese myths and legends easier as I was brought up in it and have been immersed in it. But...that's about it. I don't see why any other person who feels a connection with chinese spirituality shouldn't be able to start learnng and immerse themselves as well.

But also I've lived in Australia all my life. I might be ethnically Chinese, but i've also been brought up like all the white Australians, I don't share the same ancestory but hey that doesn't affect me in any way. It affects the racists, but then that's their problem.

[aluokaloo]

I voted for the first option, I believe there is nothing wrong if you want to follow the ways of your ancestors, but I also believe there is nothing wrong if you want to follow the ways not of your ancestors.I am philipino german scottish iris, and I have no interest in celtic culture or spirituality, or pre-catholic phillipino culutre or spirituality.

[Kendrah]

I think, personally, that race doesn't matter but I've noticed otherwise in my travels. I've had a hard time as a pasty white gal trying to look into african spirituality and native american spirituality.

I've always felt horrible for being white... I dunno. Sometimes I curse my choice of a body. It seems to be more of a barrier then a blessing at times. But there's reasons for all things, and I'm sure I had good ones when I chose this one.

[Agaliha]

Race has nothing to do with spirituality

People don't choose their parents, their race/ethnicity, where they grow up in--things like that. Why sould they be bound to genetics-- again something they cannot choose? I feel that it is not one's ancestry that is the most important-- it's what their heart and soul feel comfortable and at peace with. I have never came across a person with Egyptian ancestry practicing Tameran or Kemeticism-- the majority of those who do aren't even Middle Eastern. Same with Mesopotamian Gods (Which is modern Iraq and Iran now). To say those Gods aren't your's just because you don't have the ancestry is stupid. I understand why people follow a path of their ancestory-- I looked into it myself with the Slavic Recon, but to tell someone that a path, traditon, Diety is not their's just just wrong.
I also believe in reincarnation and past lives, to me some are drawn to a path that is not theirs ethnic-wise and racially because they followed that path in a past life, and it just carries on in this life.

And from what I learned in my Physical Antho class there is no real thing as "Race". Skin color is just the amount of melenin in the body, and it's determinded by many chromosomes-- 16 or more. It's not as simple as eye color that only has two with 3 variations [BB, bb, Bb]. The place on the equator also adds to the variants-- lighter on the top and bottom [farthest from the equator] and darker in the areas of the equator.
That's all it is. All this other crap is just what cultures put on it.

[charmedkisses1]

I voted nothing to do with it but sometimes I wonder if certain pantheons (used for specific peoples, which isn't really racist, just targeted) should be used for those with no blood ties. I don't know if that made much sense :p

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I don't think it matters, what you feel connected to is what you feel connected to. And besides, what race is your soul for that matter? Or if you believe in reincarnation, have you been the same race throughout your lives? How do we really know what our "ancestry" is anyway? Each culture reckons bloodlines and relatedness differently.

I think there are just too many questions, and people should live and let live. If the gods are happy with you and you have a connection to them, then that's all that matters. :)

[ap Dafydd]

I think cultural or racial "ownership" of particular beliefs and practices exists, and I'm really not sure how I feel about it, to be honest. The syncretism of all New Age religions, but particularly eclectic NeoPaganism must sometimes seem like a plague of locusts to people who are attempting to preserve their ancestral cultures and religions.

Hear, hear.

I couldn't bring myself to agree with any of the options so had to put "other".

Race doesn't have anything to do with spirituality and Mr Racist is no friend of mine.

But culture has a great deal to do with spirituality and, while I wouldn't say it was impossible for someone to follow the path of a culture not their own, I would say it involves a great deal of honesty, commitment, and hard work.

I'm not friends with Mr Tourist either...

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Pol]

Hear, hear.

I couldn't bring myself to agree with any of the options so had to put "other".

Race doesn't have anything to do with spirituality and Mr Racist is no friend of mine.

But culture has a great deal to do with spirituality and, while I wouldn't say it was impossible for someone to follow the path of a culture not their own, I would say it involves a great deal of honesty, commitment, and hard work.

I'm not friends with Mr Tourist either...

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

Indeed. For instance, going back to Shinto, if it were possible to be raised from childhood in a Japanese mindset then one could easily follow it - but it is such a deep, intricate part of the actual culture itself.

Also, a lot of times, especially with Asian religions, people from the 'West' can have a hard time thinking like people from the 'East.'
Very often, the whole mindset is different and would require rewiring just to understand the myths and legends as what they really mean.

[Astara Seague]

There is no room for raciests in my circle, but I do agree there are different cultures and they do things their way but I would not stop them from learning our way just as I may want to learn their way _witchball

[yavanna]

To me, race has nothing to do with spirituality. I believe in reincarnation so my physical ancesters may not be the same as my spiritual ancesters. I might be drawn to the welsh pantheon because I was welsh in a past life, not because I currently have welsh blood (which I do, but thats not the point). While it does make sense for persecuted ethnicities, like Native Americans, to preserve their cultural heritage it is wrong to prevent others from sharing in them. In order to ensure the continuation of our cultural heritage my mother passed Lakota legends down to me, but I would never want to prevent others from learning them or incorporating them into their belief structure. This is a way to keep our culure alive, by sharing it. Even though the myths won't be the same as if we kept them to ourselves because they will change with each telling, this is the evolution of spirituality. Our stories will be out there helping people understand the world, and I think thats awesome.

[yavanna]

Indeed. For instance, going back to Shinto, if it were possible to be raised from childhood in a Japanese mindset then one could easily follow it - but it is such a deep, intricate part of the actual culture itself.


I do agree that culture has a lot to do with spirituality, culture is often deeply influenced by the societies spiritual beliefs. But the as to the question of whether race has anything to do with spirituality your example shows that it doesn't

If you raised a western person from infancy in a traditional Japanese household they would have as perfect an understanding of the religion as any native.

[Pol]

I do agree that culture has a lot to do with spirituality, culture is often deeply influenced by the societies spiritual beliefs. But the as to the question of whether race has anything to do with spirituality your example shows that it doesn't

If you raised a western person from infancy in a traditional Japanese household they would have as perfect an understanding of the religion as any native.

Yep, but the Japanese might not see it that way. Because of State Shinto (which ultimately could be said to have lead to Japan's involvement in WWII), and I'm not sure how this thought survives in modern Japan, but the Japanese were a chosen/sacred race. As such, would it be suitable for a white lad to follow it?

Also, I agree with what you're saying, but I personally think that spiritual beliefs are influenced by the culture, not the other way around. Someone where harsh fires commonly ravage their crops would most likely adapt that into their mythology. Most early mythologies were based on agriculture, on the lifestyle itself. Or on hunter-gatherer cultures.

Shinto, for instance, is believed to have come out of the close communal bond of planting and harvesting rice. :)

[yavanna]

[QUOTE=Pol] Yep, but the Japanese might not see it that way. Because of State Shinto (which ultimately could be said to have lead to Japan's involvement in WWII), and I'm not sure how this thought survives in modern Japan, but the Japanese were a chosen/sacred race. As such, would it be suitable for a white lad to follow it?

I see what you mean Pol, but my point is that he could learn the beliefs as easily as any Japanese person. Regardless of how the Japanese, in this case feel about it, if he were given the chance he could learn the spirituality. But, whether they would let him does play into it. Sadly I don't think it should but it does. I'm not sure as to whether there is still the predominating "Shito for Japan" only. I know there are Shinto shrines in America, though I'm not sure whether you have to be Japanese to enter. I don't think you do, but I could be wrong.

Also, I agree with what you're saying, but I personally think that spiritual beliefs are influenced by the culture, not the other way around. Someone where harsh fires commonly ravage their crops would most likely adapt that into their mythology. Most early mythologies were based on agriculture, on the lifestyle itself. Or on hunter-gatherer cultures.
But what you're saying isn't that culture influences religion and not vice versa, you're giving an example of how environment influences religion. I whole heartedly agree that this is so. In fact, I think environment may be the single most important factor in the development of culture and religion.

[Pol]

I see what you mean Pol, but my point is that he could learn the beliefs as easily as any Japanese person. Regardless of how the Japanese, in this case feel about it, if he were given the chance he could learn the spirituality. But, whether they would let him does play into it. Sadly I don't think it should but it does. I'm not sure as to whether there is still the predominating "Shito for Japan" only. I know there are Shinto shrines in America, though I'm not sure whether you have to be Japanese to enter. I don't think you do, but I could be wrong.
Anyone can enter Shinto shrines, even in Japan. It's a big thing for tourists to do, eh.
I'm not sure how much of State Shinto was influenced by actual Shinto, but the mythology itself teaches that Japan is the land of the gods (and as such, the people there are superior). My interest in Shinto is very great, but I would feel like I was dishonouring it should I ever atempt to practice it, even if I knew everything I could about it.


But what you're saying isn't that culture influences religion and not vice versa, you're giving an example of how environment influences religion. I whole heartedly agree that this is so. In fact, I think environment may be the single most important factor in the development of culture and religion.

Well, not just environment, but the lifestyle that the environment requires. If the people liked to make and drink wine, chances are they had a god for that.
Going back to Shinto, a lot of the early texts actually putting the religion out of practice and into dogma were used to explain the ruling parties in Japan and their connection to the deities.

[yavanna]

[QUOTE=Pol]Anyone can enter Shinto shrines, even in Japan. It's a big thing for tourists to do, eh.
I'm not sure how much of State Shinto was influenced by actual Shinto, but the mythology itself teaches that Japan is the land of the gods (and as such, the people there are superior). My interest in Shinto is very great, but I would feel like I was dishonouring it should I ever atempt to practice it, even if I knew everything I could about it.

Shinto is such a cool religion, I agree I couldn't practice it because all I've learned about it comes from manga and anime, and thats no way for me to find a religion. Even so, I really appreciate it.

[B]Well, not just environment, but the lifestyle that the environment requires. If the people liked to make and drink wine, chances are they had a god for that.
Going back to Shinto, a lot of the early texts actually putting the religion out of practice and into dogma were used to explain the ruling parties in Japan and their connection to the deities.[B]

I see what you mean now. _happydanc So would you say its like this: environment --> culture ---> religion?

[Pol]

I see what you mean now. _happydanc So would you say its like this: environment --> culture ---> religion?

Yep, that's how I see it. I mean, I'm no anthropologist, but just from what I read and see, it seems that way to me. :)

And Shinto is grand, indeed.

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

Indeed. For instance, going back to Shinto, if it were possible to be raised from childhood in a Japanese mindset then one could easily follow it - but it is such a deep, intricate part of the actual culture itself.

Also, a lot of times, especially with Asian religions, people from the 'West' can have a hard time thinking like people from the 'East.'
Very often, the whole mindset is different and would require rewiring just to understand the myths and legends as what they really mean.

Definately, i totally agree with you. In my asian religions class the professor stressed just that. And as most of the class were not from asian backgrounds, it was hard for us to conceptulalize some things. Our professor also stressed how intertwined asian religions are into asian cultures, and how often, as in Popular Chinese Religion as practiced by your adverage person takes from many different belief systems from anscestor worship to buddhist and daoist beliefs. To understand and not live in that culture and practice that religion, i think could be done...but it would be very very difficult and take much research and first hand experience.

I think there's a delicate balance between ppl not of the culture who want to practice a culture's religion doing so in a respectful way, and a non respectful way. Accurately practicing the religion, being taught by a Teacher qualified to teach that religion, i think is fine. But changing it, and claiming to practice that religion when you really aren't isn't ok. In my anthro class we watched amovie that dealth with this same issue. Specifically new agers and native american spirituality. They talked to both the new agers, and the native americans. Some native americans were fine w/ it, believe it to actually help preserve their beliefs, others were not, saying what the new agers were doing was disrepectful.

I think no matter how you look at it, its a complicated issue.

[Shanti]

I have recently been thinking about racism in paganism. When I was very Naive I used to think that pagans were all open minded and weren't racist. Boy was I wrong!! (not just from this forum but various Asatru groups as well) It really sickens me. By the way most Asatru groups are extremely non- racist Im not refering to them. But I got to thinking about it. Many ethinic specific groups are trying to maintain or reconstruct various cultural religions. How important do you think ethnicity of your ancestors is when practicing another religion outside of your culture? Does a certain degree of racism matter?

Personally I don't think that it matters. As long as the person of the other races knows full well what they are getting into and wants to fully assimilate in it. So for example I am not Greek but if I felt a spiritual pull towards them I would expect a Hellenic group to not reject me based on my ethnicity. But I wouldn't try to get them to include Shango or something. So anyway I would love to hear some thoughts.
I have seen racism in paths too.
But its not the path thats racist..its the people!
I dont agree with fully assimilating anything...why would you have to.
If just a piece of a path moves your spirit, take that piece!
When you buy a music cd you dont 'have' to listen to every song on it!

Following your heart, the things that fit you can often be bits and pieces, theres nothing wrong with that. Being true to your own feelings is what matters.

As for racism...spirit has no race!! Heck it doesnt have dna either!!

And the worse part of thing having to be of a certain heritage...many people are mutts and some people dont have a clue to what their heritage is. (like people that were adopted)

Its just human predigest to judge anyone for their heritage or lack of and for how they have chosen to put their path together!

[Pol]

Definately, i totally agree with you. In my asian religions class the professor stressed just that. And as most of the class were not from asian backgrounds, it was hard for us to conceptulalize some things. Our professor also stressed how intertwined asian religions are into asian cultures, and how often, as in Popular Chinese Religion as practiced by your adverage person takes from many different belief systems from anscestor worship to buddhist and daoist beliefs. To understand and not live in that culture and practice that religion, i think could be done...but it would be very very difficult and take much research and first hand experience.

I think there's a delicate balance between ppl not of the culture who want to practice a culture's religion doing so in a respectful way, and a non respectful way. Accurately practicing the religion, being taught by a Teacher qualified to teach that religion, i think is fine. But changing it, and claiming to practice that religion when you really aren't isn't ok. In my anthro class we watched amovie that dealth with this same issue. Specifically new agers and native american spirituality. They talked to both the new agers, and the native americans. Some native americans were fine w/ it, believe it to actually help preserve their beliefs, others were not, saying what the new agers were doing was disrepectful.

I think no matter how you look at it, its a complicated issue.


Personally, I think New Agers only do more to harm Native American spirituality. It is because of my primary's New Ager mother that I find it hard to approach Native American spirituality. It's always been connected either to Natives or to New Agers to me.

I personally think that so often, Native American spirituality is exploited by European-descending people for its earthy exotic nature.

Then, combine it with crystals and chakra and Ramtha like so many New Agers do, and it only further dilutes and disrespects it.

But that's just me.

[halfwaynowhere]

i feel that certain ethnic groups may associate with particular faiths, i am part native american, and i have a lot of native americvan beliefs, but i think it was because i grew up around the mythology and such, with my mother telling me all sorts of stories that i just grew to believe... i think thats why my path is as eclectic as it is, my parents tried to introduce me to all sorts of faiths, and i just took what i wanted and molded my own way... but i don't think that race and religion are directly related. race means nothing, ethnicity is the only thing thats remotely important...

[David19]

I think there does seem to be a lot of racism in some pagan groups especially a lot of anti-semiticism. I've seen a lot in odinist forums, which i think are a disgrace to Asatru since most books and some sites aren't racist but you always get the few who are. Some of the racist comments i've seen made by wiccans, asatruers(sp) and others are things kabbalah isn't jewish (which it is, the zohar and others are specifically from jewish mystics) but also things along the lines of hitting out at islam and christianity. Also what a lot of pagans seem to forget is that if it wasn't for muslims in the medevial ages, all the greek classical stuff like plato wouldn't be here and most of our science and mathmatics comes from muslims and the middleast.

BTW, i'm not having a swipe at any particular religion, just the racist idiots that think they're being smart. The majority of paganism that i have seen such as wicca and asatru are not racist and seem to hate racists.

I don't think race has anything to do with spirituality/religion because i'm interested in Ancient Greece gods but as far as i know i haven't got greek in me, i have got jewish/Irish and Iraqi blood in me and i am attracted to those beliefs like Mesopatanian but because of the gods and other things.

I don't understand how people can still be racist today and there's even a neo-nazi satanist site called the Joy of Satan which is extremely anti-semitic and that seems (or used) to be one of the most popular sites around. (BTW, i'm also not attacking other satanists because i actually like some parts of satanism like Diane Vera's site).

Anyway that's what i think.

[louise_holm]

Unfortunately, it seems pretty common. Ignorant and disgusting, but common. I've encountered Wiccan purists who didn't believe people of non-white, non-European ancestry belonged in the path, and I've met Kemetics who didn't believe people of white, European ancestry belonged in that path. I'm usually doing something that someone somewhere thinks I shouldn't be doing, so those attitudes don't sit very well with me. If I were rolling my eyes any harder than I already am, I believe they might just fall out. :D


~*~taijiya~*~

my granny is canadian but because i live here and was brought up here noone questions my culture race whatever but there isn't any racism here anyway and i can't say about racism in wicca when i only know one other person who practuses it as well as me and thats my friend who came over from zimbabwe 3 years ago (she isn't black) and i really don't see any reason why non europeans shouldn't practise wicca/paganism/witchcraft whatever they are all expanding religions and should welcome newcomers and help them learn more about it!

[AdNoctum]

If race did really matter that much, then one would imagine that gods would never call someone who wasn't part of the bloodline of their original people. But it happens.

I'm British, Irish, Scottish, German and Swedish. I've never been drawn to any path or mythology originated by those peoples in any way other than mere academic interest. All of my spiritual interest lies in Eastern (specifically Hindu) mythology. The gods of my ancestors have never given me any indication that I should follow them.

If you want to follow this "race-and-culture-specific religion" idea, then everyone in a Western nation would have to worship the Greek and Roman deities because so much of their culture influenced ours.

[yavanna]

I personally think that so often, Native American spirituality is exploited by European-descending people for its earthy exotic nature.

Then, combine it with crystals and chakra and Ramtha like so many New Agers do, and it only further dilutes and disrespects it.

But that's just me.

Now, I do agree with you here. Its ok to look to our myths for guidance and understanding but to attribute things to our spiritual philosophy that simply aren't there, to take what they want and leave what they don't shows a lack of understanding and impatience. Its like saying, yeah this is cool I'll use it but I don't really care to learn the meaning behind it or anything else about your culture. :awwman: That annoys me. But I am fine with people learning about Lakota ways and understanding them, using the myths to gain insite into the natural world and our culture etc... Just not picking and choosing and perversion. That sucks

[Elderbush]

This is tricky because there is more than one way to look at it. One can, of course, rip off anything one wants from different religions and cultures and there are no police who will come to your house and arrest you. Therefore, everyone here is free to partake of whatever religion they wish and mutilate religions and cultures at will.

The problem comes when one person asks another one to respect that. They don't have to...and it isn't racist if they don't. No group has to include a person just because the person wants to belong. A member of the Navajo nation does not have to accept a non-Navajo who does not speak the language or know the culture or have kinship ties as a Navajo. You see what I mean?

They aren't Navajo. They are claiming to be something they are not. Does a Navajo have to teach a non-Navajo their religion? No. And it isn't racist to refuse. To be a Navajo is more than to worship their gods. A Navajo may not be able to stop a person from taking pleasing bits of their heritage and using them, but they really don't have to like it or think it is cute.

Borrowing is one thing, acceptance from the group you borrow from another.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Yeah, race is a touchy thing, but most of this comes down to ethnicity not race. I mean if I'm a Aztec the Navajo still don't want me, we're technically the same race.
For the most part peoples that practice Paganism and are still around (Native Americans (from both Americas), Africans, Austrailians whatever) they don't want you mucking about with their religion.
They don't want you, it doesn't matter how bad you want to get in you're not.
You just gotta stay away from that whole bit I've found.

[Aidron]

I find race to be irrelevant, but at the end of the day, I'm white and with how my life has gone so far it comes with a certain amount of experience:

I've never known a single black pagan outside of the practitioners of Santeria, Voodoo, Hoodoo and the like. This is not to say it would shock me if one was not or that you must be black in order to practice those paths, but I would be inclined to wonder if a black pagan was a practitioner of any of those paths "at a glance" so to speak.

I personally do not see how the confines of skin and genetics can disallow transendence or reverence in any chosen path and that such thinking is merely a matter of flawed perception, though we are all guilty of flawed perceptions.

[SacredWithin]

I think that it shouldn't matter to anyone else what culture you are form when getting into religion. Although I personally think that people feel more intune with a religion if it is of their own culture or ancestral history. But I tihnk people should be free to do as they please when it comes to choosing and I don't think people should hold it against you. No one is perfect and expected to make the right choices the first time when it comes to religion or any such choice for that matter.

[SacredWithin]

I've never known a single black pagan outside of the practitioners of Santeria, Voodoo, Hoodoo and the like.

Count me as your first. :D

This is not to say it would shock me if one was not or that you must be black in order to practice those paths, but I would be inclined to wonder if a black pagan was a practitioner of any of those paths "at a glance" so to speak.

??? I'm confused. What do you mean by "at a glance"?

[ShadowcatX]

Other. . .Both yes and no. I don't think race (or sex or . . .) should limit people from learning and practicing a faith, but I can understand (in some instances) why it does.

[AutumnFalling]

I keep separating this into two issues in my mind. On one hand, I do not believe that people can dictate what others can and can't believe because of their ethnicity; spirituality and ethnicity don't corrolate completely. However, I do not think that it's right for cultures and cultural religions to up for a free-for-the-taking spree; in other words, the Native Americans have a right to choose who can and cannot be a part of their rites, Fam-Trad witches have the right to keep their passed-down knowledge within their bloodlines and so forth. It's an issue of cultural respect and integrity; however, if one feels called by the Native American gods, or any other gods, for that matter, it is their own personal choice to follow the paths they choose, as long as they do so with respect for the people of those cultures who have the right to define themselves.

The other half of the issue in my mind...
I must have access to more diversity in the community of Pagans that I've known. When I first joined the group that I've trained with, one of the members was a very spirited, outspoken, and spiritual black woman. We were both learning the same coursework around the same time, but I learned a lot about different perspectives from learning alongside her, and I was sad when she left our tradition for another (and neither our shared tradition or her new trad are part of the African ethnic religions...).
I almost dated a half-Asian guy whose father was a BTW, and he was raised knowing the Pagan community (though I completely understood why he became disenchanted with the community, from some of the stories he told me.).
I find it sick and sad that Pagans - who, in many ways, have so much cultural diversity within their religions - can make such assumptions and be so judgemental.

[MoonDragn]

I am Chinese and have never been attracted to one religion or another til I read starhawk's Spiral dance. That book is the inspiration for my steps on the path. I have been evolving forward in my spirituality, learning about other different paths including back to my own roots and taoism. Ultimately I find it doesn't matter really what culture inspired your belief, all that matters is that you were enlightened.

People who worry about having to be one culture or another to be part of something are not really religious at all. They are part of a little cliche that they don't want anyone else to join. That isn't spirituality, thats a club. True seekers of spirituality will help their fellows take the next step towards enlightenment and are most often, colorblind.

[jcldragon]

I knew a black woman once who got a lot of flack for her love of Native American religion. People just didn't see why she wouldn't just want to get into African native religion. Including some of the Native Americans she was learning from.

I personally believe that race should not be an issue. Especially in melting pots like America - the word ancestor sometimes feel moot. So many people are 25% this and 10% that. Many don't know and don't have the means to find out.

This was when I lived in Texas and she felt a connection to the land where she was raised - so Native American religion felt natural to her.

Most people are drawn to specific cultures for a reason.

But that is just in regard to learning. It might be more complicated trying to join a group. If your own ancestry is sort of unknown you are more likely to be eclectic and incorporate whatever seems to apply. You would really need to be dedicated and have a strong connection to your chosen culture. Even if that connection is not based on race.I've seen white people try to steer black people toward Voodun a number of times. I don't know why they would do that, since Voodun is easily available to the black community, if they are interested in it.

Knowing that I've had incarnations on every continent, and within every major ethnic group at one time or another, I've steered people towards whatever I happen to be studying at the time, (unless they seem to have an interest in a specific area). Currently, that would be Traditions created by non-human species living on Earth, like the Entheogenic plants, (No. I am not refering to Shamanism, since that is a human Tradition. I'm refering to the Traditions that the plants are practicing themselves)

[SheWolf]

I think there does seem to be a lot of racism in some pagan groups especially a lot of anti-semiticism. I've seen a lot in odinist forums, which i think are a disgrace to Asatru since most books and some sites aren't racist but you always get the few who are. Some of the racist comments i've seen made by wiccans, asatruers(sp) and others are things kabbalah isn't jewish (which it is, the zohar and others are specifically from jewish mystics) but also things along the lines of hitting out at islam and christianity. Also what a lot of pagans seem to forget is that if it wasn't for muslims in the medevial ages, all the greek classical stuff like plato wouldn't be here and most of our science and mathmatics comes from muslims and the middleast.

BTW, i'm not having a swipe at any particular religion, just the racist idiots that think they're being smart. The majority of paganism that i have seen such as wicca and asatru are not racist and seem to hate racists.

I don't think race has anything to do with spirituality/religion because i'm interested in Ancient Greece gods but as far as i know i haven't got greek in me, i have got jewish/Irish and Iraqi blood in me and i am attracted to those beliefs like Mesopatanian but because of the gods and other things.

I don't understand how people can still be racist today and there's even a neo-nazi satanist site called the Joy of Satan which is extremely anti-semitic and that seems (or used) to be one of the most popular sites around. (BTW, i'm also not attacking other satanists because i actually like some parts of satanism like Diane Vera's site).

Anyway that's what i think.


Why is it that people only associate racism with white people and white pagan beliefs? Doesn't the Jewish faith believe that the jews are the chosen ones? And Xtians always claim they follow the true faith? Each religious and spiritual group have their own ideas about race that modern cosmopolitan people are touchy about. New Age beliefs happen to be multicultural and all-embracing, just like fundemental religions. It regards the natural, healthy concept of being territorial (that also exists within animals) as being the most evil thing today.

[Fr. INRI]

Why is it that people only associate racism with white people and white pagan beliefs? Doesn't the Jewish faith believe that the jews are the chosen ones? And Xtians always claim they follow the true faith? Each religious and spiritual group have their own ideas about race that modern cosmopolitan people are touchy about. New Age beliefs happen to be multicultural and all-embracing, just like fundemental religions. It regards the natural, healthy concept of being territorial (that also exists within animals) as being the most evil thing today.


I'd say that theres a difference in that most Jews and Christians, while claiming their path to be the one true path, don't outwardly hate people of other paths. Sure, there are some rotten eggs here and there, but that happens with everyone. The problem with White Supremicist ideaologies is that they tend to go one step further than saying they are the right; they view other races as impure, vile, and worthy of destruction. Whereas everyone wants to believe their way is the right way, only a few are loathsome enough to outwardly seek the violent end of others. This I think, is what makes the leap from simple prejudice to downright racism; the belief that violent action against a different race is right and just.

[Gnoblod]

I chose "Races may matter somewhat."

I believe people are tied to their ancestors. Blood carries identity, identity carries fate (hamingja is a good example).

That being said, and certainly true, there are gods who apparently don't care who you are as long as you follow them, like the Christian god and the Wiccan goddess. I'm pretty sure those that do care have bigger things on their minds than apostates who go to foreign gods.

So in the practical, it doesn't much matter. Personally, I feel it does matter in the spiritual, one way or the other.

[Fr. INRI]

I chose "Races may matter somewhat."

I believe people are tied to their ancestors. Blood carries identity, identity carries fate (hamingja is a good example).

That being said, and certainly true, there are gods who apparently don't care who you are as long as you follow them, like the Christian god and the Wiccan goddess. I'm pretty sure those that do care have bigger things on their minds than apostates who go to foreign gods.

So in the practical, it doesn't much matter. Personally, I feel it does matter in the spiritual, one way or the other.


I disagree with you wholeheartedly, simply because the vast, vast majority of deities do not care about race. To me, the very idea that a god would give a crap about something as unimportant as the color of someones skin or where they come from means is just stupid. Who ever said that, for example, that the Wiccan Goddess was caucasian? Gods look the way their worshippers design them, not the other way around.

[Gnoblod]

I disagree with you wholeheartedly, simply because the vast, vast majority of deities do not care about race.

I don't believe I can speak for the vast majority of deities. There are simply too many, and they don't confide in me. :)

To me, the very idea that a god would give a crap about something as unimportant as the color of someones skin or where they come from means is just stupid.

What's stupid to you may not be so stupid to some gods, especially those who champion the causes of family and tribe. Milennia-old deities most likely don't care about modern ideas regarding race and relations thereof, or your disdain for such things.

[Fr. INRI]

I don't believe I can speak for the vast majority of deities. There are simply too many, and they don't confide in me. :)

When I speak of the vast majority, I simply mean look at how effectively modern day practicioners of all races use deities from around the globe. If the deities cared about race, the magick wouldnt work.


What's stupid to you may not be so stupid to some gods, especially those who champion the causes of family and tribe. Milennia-old deities most likely don't care about modern ideas regarding race and relations thereof, or your disdain for such things.

I've heard this very same argument from the mouth of many racist Asatruars, and it's this attitude that gives their path a bad name; using the blind of "tribal pride" and "championing the family" as a cover for plain and nasty racism; it's the same rhetoric the Nazis used, and it's the same garbage racists spout all over the world. While I am certainly not trying to say you are a Nazi (or a racist, or even follow Asatru) I simply wanted to point out your argument is uncomfortably close to those spouted by skinheads, anti-semites, and other less then likeable types.

[Gnoblod]

When I speak of the vast majority, I simply mean look at how effectively modern day practicioners of all races use deities from around the globe. If the deities cared about race, the magick wouldnt work.

We're working from across a rather wide cultural gap, here. I don't consider "success in 'using' deities" to mean anything. The idea of "using" a god is foreign to me in the first place, and your criteria of "success" is self-satisfying; if a white guy "feels it" honoring Shango, that doesn't mean Shango cares either way, to my mind.

I've heard this very same argument from the mouth of many racist Asatruars, and it's this attitude that gives their path a bad name; using the blind of "tribal pride" and "championing the family" as a cover for plain and nasty racism; it's the same rhetoric the Nazis used, and it's the same garbage racists spout all over the world. While I am certainly not trying to say you are a Nazi (or a racist, or even follow Asatru) I simply wanted to point out your argument is uncomfortably close to those spouted by skinheads, anti-semites, and other less then likeable types.

Truth is truth no matter who speaks it. The fact that racists care about family doesn't make the rest of us who care about family racists, nor does it make caring about family a suspect position. There's a difference between recognizing racial or ethnic ties to certain gods (which is just a matter of knowing your lore) and judging others as inferior because they're tied to other gods in origin (i.e., they're of different races).

"Racism" is nothing more than the idea that a given race is superior to another in some way or discrimination based on racial differences. Acknowledging that People A are historically connected to God(s) A is not the same as saying People A are "superior" (in whatever fashion one might mean it) to People B.

If one takes the lore at something approaching face-value, even in a merely-symbolic fashion, then most white Americans (for example) are descended from Germanic and/or Celtic gods. We have a much smaller chance of being descended from a Japanese sun-goddess or the like. That being the case, it only makes sense to me that many said Americans would (supposing they detach themselves from the Hebrew god most worhsip at present) look back to the gods they're connected to in the past, rather than trying to find another people's god(s). Those of us who feel the gods are actual beings, rather than archetypes, certainly have a vested interest in seriously considering the oaths our people made with our progenitors and how we're to handle them in the modern day. Farming oneself out to foreign gods certainly is an option, but I personally find it unpalatable; I am not a Lakota, an aborigine or Japanese. I originate from a particular human family, with it's own reckoning of what gods care about whom. That this information is no longer widely-known is hardly my own fault, but knowing it, I can't exactly unlearn it and try to be something else.

That's how I see it, anyway. It's not like I'm going to break down your door with the Hammer of Orthodoxy +5 or anything for disagreeing. :) When I see a white guy worshipping Shango or a black guy honoring Thor, my reaction is more "huh, what's his story?" than "OMG INFIDEL KILL SIEG HEIL!"

[Gnoblod]

And besides, what race is your soul for that matter? Or if you believe in reincarnation, have you been the same race throughout your lives?

Is there any suggestion of reincarnation outside of the bloodline in European lore?

[Philosophia]

Is there any suggestion of reincarnation outside of the bloodline in European lore?

If your asking (and I maybe wrong because I'm tired and sick), whether "reincarnation" has origins outside of European lore, then yes.
Check here:
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/r/reincarnation.html

Farming oneself out to foreign gods certainly is an option, but I personally find it unpalatable; I am not a Lakota, an aborigine or Japanese. I originate from a particular human family, with it's own reckoning of what gods care about whom.

* Okay, but if you live in another country, how is that still connecting to your gods? My home land is Australia, should I connect to their mythology? Or should I follow my Celtic and Nordic ancestors?
But, what if there is some Greek blood in me as well. Would that explain Hecate's calling? But what Thoth?
I apologize for nit-picking and playing semantics. What I am trying to state is that no blood is pure. I highly doubt that anybody's blood is pure, and in terms of family, it could mean all over the world. Maybe you do have Aboriginal, Japanese, or Lakota blood, but does this mean that you have access to it?
(Excuse me if I sound harsh. I'm really not feeling well and I have a ritual to plan for.)

[jcldragon]

Is there any suggestion of reincarnation outside of the bloodline in European lore?My dear friend, Herschel, who is an Hassidic Rabbi, says that Jews reincarnate as Jews. He says that the population of Hassidic Jews has been fairly constant on this planet for centuries. The Orthodox have always believed in reincarnation, (too bad the Xians don't seem to know this). Although he believes his people have a special historical relationship with God, he doesn't think that anybody is superior to anybody. He has lots of rules for himself, but practically none for anybody else. He does believe that it would be a good idea if everybody would at least attempt to be kind.

He is strictly Koscher. Since my garden is strictly organic, that qualifies as Koscher. So he's developed a special love for my cherry tomatoes :) I told him that my cherry tomatoes were individually kissed by Faeries, (if you got to eat one, you would not doubt this!) Herschell said he didn't believe in Faeries. I said, "It's interesting that you brought that up... because just the other day I overheard two Faeries in my backyard discussing whether or not they should believe in Jews".

hehehe

If you can't tease your friends, who can you tease?

[Cassie]

The idea that you might only be reincarnated within your own race is new to me and doesn't ring true. (Just my personal opinion).
I have read and seen some reports of 'past life regressions' and there often seems to be 'evidence' of cross-racial reincarnation there. Again on a personal level, I don't feel that all my incarnations have been in the same race.

[jcldragon]

The idea that you might only be reincarnated within your own race is new to me and doesn't ring true. (Just my personal opinion).
I have read and seen some reports of 'past life regressions' and there often seems to be 'evidence' of cross-racial reincarnation there. Again on a personal level, I don't feel that all my incarnations have been in the same race.That's certainly been my experience as well. I recall past incarnations everywhere. I think that the Tribe of Judah has a special thing going on. I should also point out that the current Dalai Lama is the 10 reincarnation of Avalokitesvara. I don't know if he plans on continuing to do that or not.

[StarCraftLia]

.

[jcldragon]

Race has nothing to do with spirituality.I know members of other species who are pretty much convinced that the human race has nothing to do with spirituality...

It's taken me over a year to convince the crows in my neighborhood that I'm OK, and that it is alright to talk with me. The crows wouldn't warm up to me at all, until they saw the care I do in my garden. They respect the trees' opinions, and I guess I needed a sponsor to vouch that I was indeed, a Spiritual Being.

[Gnoblod]

If your asking (and I maybe wrong because I'm tired and sick), whether "reincarnation" has origins outside of European lore...

Not what I'm asking! Sorry for the confusion. Put another way, I was asking whether European lore had any instances of reincarnation outside of a bloodline, not whether instances of reincarnation outside of the bloodline occur outside of European lore. Most pagans seem to be Eurocentric in the origin of their practices, heavily if not exclusively, so it seems odd that an idea I personally see as more Asian, typically, is so common (not that I know everything). Where did you guys get this idea?

Okay, but if you live in another country, how is that still connecting to your gods?

I honestly don't understand the question. Why would moving to another piece of land change your blood?

What I am trying to state is that no blood is pure.

I don't understand what purity has to do with anything.

Maybe you do have Aboriginal, Japanese, or Lakota blood, but does this mean that you have access to it?

I say yes, at least in some small part, but I know a lot of people (usually hardcore types) will say I'm wrong. I'm not suggesting that the people in question have to accept you as anything because of who your grandmother was, but rather that you do have a connection because of that grandmother.

[Gnoblod]

The idea that you might only be reincarnated within your own race is new to me and doesn't ring true.

Ok. Outside of your personal experiences, what is it that suggests one reincarnates outside of one's line, and from where do such beliefs come from?

[Gnoblod]

I also thought being pagan automatically made a person open-minded and considerate, but I've been proven wrong so many times.

Race has nothing to do with spirituality.

I need an irony smiley. :twitch:

[gurlygurl2004]

Growing up in a Christian faith, everyone no matter what race or previous religion was allowed to join the faith. Personally I don't have a problem with someone of color looking into celtic Wiccae, or other paganisms other than there own. I've studied voodoo and thought of trying before. To me saying that a person of color can't be Wiccan, is like saying that Christianity should not had spread outside of the Middle East.

[Gnoblod]

To me saying that a person of color can't be Wiccan, is like saying that Christianity should not had spread outside of the Middle East.

I don't think that's the best analogy, though. Christianity and Wicca are both explicitly open in theory, if not practice; they both take practices from other religions who can have more-intimate ties from certain deities (i.e., a Christian most likely doesn't descend from Christ, whereas any English heathen with the right geneaology map can see their descent from Odin).

[Philosophia]

Not what I'm asking! Sorry for the confusion. Put another way, I was asking whether European lore had any instances of reincarnation outside of a bloodline, not whether instances of reincarnation outside of the bloodline occur outside of European lore. Most pagans seem to be Eurocentric in the origin of their practices, heavily if not exclusively, so it seems odd that an idea I personally see as more Asian, typically, is so common (not that I know everything). Where did you guys get this idea?

I apologise for the confusion. Like I stated, I was tired and sick (and unfortunate mix). I think what you stated about reincarnation within the European bloodlines tends to remind me of heridatary witchcraft. Anyway, I'm getting off track...
I think a belief in reincarnation outside of family (or ancestoral blood) is something that, in my opinion, makes some sense since our ancestors were very diverse. It may not have been so in the past due to a decrease of poulation and the widespread epidemics that could wipe out many generarations. But now, with the increase in population, introduction of contemporary medicine, and (sometimes) lack of extended family, being born via ancestoral lines and family may not be very common at all.
Anyway, I hope this makes some sort of sense. :smile:

I honestly don't understand the question. Why would moving to another piece of land change your blood?

* Because wouldn't the land have some impact on the "Gods" a person worships? For instance, if your family is heavily decended from Britian, but you live in Greece, how would this impact on your worship of the Gods?

I say yes, at least in some small part, but I know a lot of people (usually hardcore types) will say I'm wrong. I'm not suggesting that the people in question have to accept you as anything because of who your grandmother was, but rather that you do have a connection because of that grandmother.

* I agree to a point. I think that a person must at least respect and observe their ancestoral countries, but it isn't necessary to completely look at it (though if that is your choice, go for it).

[Gnoblod]

Because wouldn't the land have some impact on the "Gods" a person worships? For instance, if your family is heavily decended from Britian, but you live in Greece, how would this impact on your worship of the Gods?

It wouldn't impact mine at all! But I see what you're saying...in the modern age, many people feel that identity is a lot more fluid than it used to be.

[Cassie]

Ok. Outside of your personal experiences, what is it that suggests one reincarnates outside of one's line, and from where do such beliefs come from?
Evidence from many recorded and reported incidents of "past life regressions".

[Philosophia]

It wouldn't impact mine at all! But I see what you're saying...in the modern age, many people feel that identity is a lot more fluid than it used to be.

Thanks! I was hoping I was making sense!

[mothwench]

Oh no I wasn't implying that at all. I was just reading about racism in Asatru at the time. It was purely an example. And you are right that story is disgusting. I have heard of it in wicca also because they feel its for europeans only.
basically i feel everyone should do what feels right to them. if a black or hispanic or asian person wants to turn to asatru, i sure am not going to object. i would welcome anyone into my spirituality, regardless of race.

however, i would mention the fact that one of the staple parts of asatru is the honouring of your ancestors. and that he/she should give thought to the question of what his/her ancestors would think of being honoured in the framework of a religion that is not of their culture.
that's where i see the mixing of cultures/ethnicities as being slightly problematic, but everyone has to decide that for themselves. :)

btw, i didn't vote in your poll, there really isn't an option in there for me.
eta: oh, yes there is, there's "other". so i'll vote that then. :bubbles:

[Tulip Tree]

How important is race/ethnicity in a culturally specific form of paganism?I chose the first option, but then I reread your question. Your question doesn't mention spirituality, instead you use the phrase "culturally specific form of paganism".

I don't consider Buddhism to be culturally specific because it has successfully travelled across cultures, changing a little in each region or country. Now, if you wanted to specifically practice Japanese Buddhism, you might find it a little burdensome. I know a Japanese woman found Catholism to be much lighter in obligation and ritual. ;) As far as Shinto goes, I can find out whether or not a Japanese person would be offended or just amused. The Japanese can be very racist, but they don't take some things as seriously as as a westerner might think they should.

I can see why some culture groups get upset when someone comes bounding on their porch like a puppy after seeing Dances with Wolves, wanting to "learn" i.e. "try-out" their religion. The anthropologist who have actually been initiated into the religions they study, have done some very hard work to attain that honor and their lives were changed because of it. If you're willing to do the work, are serious, able to stand up to the naysayers and ribbing, then I think you can get past the resistance. I do think it's insulting to ask to be taught the whole religion before you know you really want it.

[Gnoblod]

Evidence from many recorded and reported incidents of "past life regressions".

Ok. Anything that's not modern anecdote?

[Hangatyr 13]

Okay, it's time to play devil's advocate. I read the first couple of pages, then I stopped because almost all of it was your typical MTV "I may be going out on a limb here, but racism is wrong." kind of drivel. Why is it that in our TV-brainwashed, politically-correct mainstream culture that being a (white) racist is considered to be worse than being a liar, or an adulterer, or a traitor, or a theif? Just a thought. BTW, I voted for the third option.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not a "racist", but I understand most "racists". I know that being a "racist" doesn't neccesarily make you stupid, and I've associated with many people of many races who might be considered "racist". I've even lived with some.

Why do I think that (most) people need to find their own ethnic religions? I doubt anyone else here would believe as I believe in concepts like the Folk-Soul, or reincarnation through the blood, but what about the natural inclination to look out for your own first? I'm white, so I follow a religion followed by most of my ancestors, in this case, Asatru. Naturally, I look after my family and those who share my blood whether or not they follow my religion because I consider them to be "the folk", and already more heathen than a person of any other race could possibly be whether or not they have conciously accepted the gods of their ancestors. If I followed some indian or african religion, then I might be inclined to prefer indians or blacks over my own people, would I not? Such a thing would be a betrayal. If I had taken an interest in Voodoo, I would not expect a Voodoo preistess to welcome me into her religion with open arms, I'd expect her to consider me a traitor.

Sincerly, your devil's advocate,
-13

[Gnoblod]

I doubt anyone else here would believe as I believe in concepts like the Folk-Soul, or reincarnation through the blood...

Just you and me, it would appear. :)

Most here seem to believe in the Asian ideas of reincarnation rather than those held by their actual ancestors.

[Philosophia]

Okay, it's time to play devil's advocate. I read the first couple of pages, then I stopped because almost all of it was your typical MTV "I may be going out on a limb here, but racism is wrong." kind of drivel.

* Why do people the need to put down others who hold a different opinion? My "racism is wrong" does not come from
Oh and you're not playing devils advocate by insulting others.

Why is it that in our TV-brainwashed, politically-correct mainstream culture that being a (white) racist is considered to be worse than being a liar, or an adulterer, or a traitor, or a theif? Just a thought. BTW, I voted for the third option.

* Why is a person with different views "brainwashed"? And a racist (of any kind) could be classed as a liar, traitor, theif, or adulterer as can any other person in this world.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not a "racist", but I understand most "racists".

* I'm glad someone does.

I know that being a "racist" doesn't neccesarily make you stupid, and I've associated with many people of many races who might be considered "racist". I've even lived with some.

* Really? Good for you! I've also lived with racists and learnt that the majourity don't have any evidence to

Why do I think that (most) people need to find their own ethnic religions? I doubt anyone else here would believe as I believe in concepts like the Folk-Soul, or reincarnation through the blood, but what about the natural inclination to look out for your own first?

* My own? Since I belong to the human race (not specific colours) I guess I already do. As since my blood isn't absolutely pure (unless there is no outside influences, which is highly improbable), then reincarnation in my blood would mean I wouldn't mean doing so outside my "family" line.

I'm white, so I follow a religion followed by most of my ancestors, in this case, Asatru.

* But are you a "pure" white? Before anybody asks, what I mean by pure is that your "blood" is untouched by other "races" thus lessening whatever arguement one has over being white.

Naturally, I look after my family and those who share my blood whether or not they follow my religion because I consider them to be "the folk", and already more heathen than a person of any other race could possibly be whether or not they have conciously accepted the gods of their ancestors.

* I'm not one of your "folk" even though I'm white. I don't like to be segregated into groups.

If I followed some indian or african religion, then I might be inclined to prefer indians or blacks over my own people, would I not? Such a thing would be a betrayal.

* No, and I don't believe that is the case. How would it be betrayal?

If I had taken an interest in Voodoo, I would not expect a Voodoo preistess to welcome me into her religion with open arms, I'd expect her to consider me a traitor.

* Actually, I would because there are many "white" people practising Voodoo.

Most here seem to believe in the Asian ideas of reincarnation rather than those held by their actual ancestors.

* Like I stated before, blood is not pure, and our lineages and ancestory have been interminged with a lot of influences.

[SkySilver]

I think it's a shame that anyone would believe that race has anything to do with a person's spirituality.

To me, racism is a hinderance to a person's growth no matter what religion they practice.

[SkySilver]

Oh, and racism is based on negative emotions. All negative emotions are based in fear. Since when is it productive to a person's spirituality to be negative or to have "fear-based" beliefs?

I personally don't see how the two can fit together unless it's an emotion that needs to be dealt with before it can be learned from. But this would have to be for the purpose of growth not stagnation.

[Gnoblod]

I think it's a shame that anyone would believe that race has anything to do with a person's spirituality.

Why?

To me, racism is a hinderance to a person's growth no matter what religion they practice. I have very little respect for people like that.

Are you suggesting our religious beliefs are racist? :dis:

[Elderbush]

Definition of racism according to my dictionary: "The notion that one's own ethinic stock is superior."

I don't see anyone saying that.

[Gnoblod]

Me neither, but the idea that race and spirituality are connected apparently brings racism to some minds straight away.

[SkySilver]

Why?



Are you suggesting our religious beliefs are racist? :dis:

huh? I'm not saying anything to anyone in particular. I was just talking about racists in general.

[Gnoblod]

Ok. I just didn't see what racism had to do with anything.

[Gnoblod]

I think it's a shame that anyone would believe that race has anything to do with a person's spirituality.

Why?

[SkySilver]

um... that's the subject of the thread... the poll is addressing the connection between race and spirituality... and quite frankly... one has nothing to do with the other.

[SkySilver]

because race is something we are born into... hence, we don't have a choice in that... but we do have a choice in what we do with the life we are given.

THAT is spirituality.

[Gnoblod]

the poll is addressing the connection between race and spirituality... and quite frankly... one has nothing to do with the other.

In your religion, perhaps. In older pagan religions, this wasn't always the case. I don't see how anyone can just lay down a blanket statement either way.

[SkySilver]

this isn't about religion... this is about spirituality and race.

[Gnoblod]

Ok. I still don't see how you can insist that your spirituality's view on reincarnation is somehow right, and everyone else's is wrong. That's all. Could they not both be true, depending on the people in question?

[SkySilver]

I never said anything about reincarnation.

The only reason I posted here in the first place was to state my opinion on my vote.

I don't see how I am insisting anything in what I say here. I am the last person to assume that I am right above everyone else.

I didn't want to offend or create an argument about it. I simply wanted to state my opinion on the topic in question.

[Gnoblod]

I'm sorry, I had two different windows on two different discussions. The reincarnation thing has nothing to do with you or what you said at all.

:uhhhhh:

[SkySilver]

:lol: that's quite alright. :hugz:

[SacredWithin]

I'm sorry, I had two different windows on two different discussions. The reincarnation thing has nothing to do with you or what you said at all.

:uhhhhh:

Don't you hate when that happens?

[wolf]

Having blood ties helps with one's connections to Gods/goddesses of particular pantheon. It's certainly not essential, but every little bit helps.

[Hangatyr 13]

* Why do people the need to put down others who hold a different opinion? My "racism is wrong" does not come from
Oh and you're not playing devils advocate by insulting others.I see allot of people here putting down "racists" for holding a different opinion. Is it wrong to hold all people to the same standard?

* Why is a person with different views "brainwashed"? And a racist (of any kind) could be classed as a liar, traitor, theif, or adulterer as can any other person in this world.Are you brainwashed? I don't know, but you certainly haven't proven anything with this. While it is true that a "racist" can do many dishonorable things just like a "non-racist", it doesn't change the fact that "racism" is generally considered by most people to be worse than things like adultery, or lying. Turn on the TV and you'll see things like Walker, Texas Ranger going toe to toe with ridiculus, generic "neo-nazis" who want to pick on poor black baptists for no other reason than the color of their skin. Then you'll see the chicks from Desperate Housewives betraying their husbands for the gardner.

You are Austrailian, are you not? Perhaps an American could answer this question for me: In American politics, who is generally prefered; Bill Clinton, an adulterer, or David Duke, a racist? It's pretty safe to assume that Clinton is prefered. Why? Because of the label "racist".

* My own? Since I belong to the human race (not specific colours) I guess I already do. As since my blood isn't absolutely pure (unless there is no outside influences, which is highly improbable), then reincarnation in my blood would mean I wouldn't mean doing so outside my "family" line.Human race?:hehehehe:

* But are you a "pure" white? Before anybody asks, what I mean by pure is that your "blood" is untouched by other "races" thus lessening whatever arguement one has over being white.Not really. I've done the math, and I'm about one sixty-forth Cherokee, but I'm still white. While some non-europid traits still show up in me, it would be ridiculus for me to run around claiming to be an indian.

* I'm not one of your "folk" even though I'm white. I don't like to be segregated into groups.Yes, you are, kinswoman.:)

[SkySilver]

Racism is based on hatred and the belief that one race is superior to another... Hatred is a negative emotion. Any negative emotion when applied to any form of belief system produces a blockage to a person's spirituality.

You are more than free to have this belief. Heck that's what this country is based on: Freedom. In my humble opinion, it would benefit people to approach their beliefs with love-based thoughts... not superior hate-based thoughts.

But that's just my humble opinion.

Much love to you and I hope you're able to find growth in all your spiritual endeavors. :hugz:

[Philosophia]

I see allot of people here putting down "racists" for holding a different opinion. Is it wrong to hold all people to the same standard?

* Since I can only speak for myself, I do hold people to the same standard. If you have evidence (with facts, not thoughts) to prove your opinions, then I have respect for you. If you don't, goodbye. If racists can prove their point with scientific facts, then I'll have a discussion with them.

Are you brainwashed?

* But neither have you! Are people that hold different opinions to you "brainwashed"?

I don't know, but you certainly haven't proven anything with this.

* And neither have you.

While it is true that a "racist" can do many dishonorable things just like a "non-racist", it doesn't change the fact that "racism" is generally considered by most people to be worse than things like adultery, or lying.

* "Racism" isolates people through the colour of skin by using falsified proof to put forward their beliefs. Is it the same as lying or adultery? Depends on the
extent. But then again, racism also has elements of lying.

Turn on the TV and you'll see things like Walker, Texas Ranger going toe to toe with ridiculus, generic "neo-nazis" who want to pick on poor black baptists for no other reason than the color of their skin.

* A *B* class action series is your proof? If we are going on races in series, what about Rambo (demonizing other cultures), The fast and the furious, etc..
Walker, Texas Ranger has a leading "white" male with a "black" sidekick and a helpless woman who desperatley needs his help.

Then you'll see the chicks from Desperate Housewives betraying their husbands for the gardner.

* They call these entertainment, not facts. See above.

You are Austrailian, are you not? Perhaps an American could answer this question for me: In American politics, who is generally prefered; Bill Clinton, an adulterer, or David Duke, a racist? It's pretty safe to assume that Clinton is prefered. Why? Because of the label "racist".

* Or is it because Clinton has proven himself and David Duke hasn't?
Has David Duke got any policies that can help him get elected? Does David Duke's foreign policies hold any water?

Human race?

* :wtf: Yes, there is the Human race.

Not really. I've done the math, and I'm about one sixty-forth Cherokee, but I'm still white.

* Not completely though. Historically speaking, nobody is pure white or even close to being "pure".

While some non-europid traits still show up in me, it would be ridiculus for me to run around claiming to be an indian.

* Nobody said you should. But why can't other people?

Yes, you are, kinswoman.

* No, I'm not. :)

[AlAskendir]

Certain races or groups seem to feel like (a) a whole bunch of things have been stolen from them, and (b) they are the origin for certain varieties of spiritual activity. Give those, I would not want to participate in anything that might make them feel as if their spiritual activites or secret techings were being stolen.

On the other hand, there is a tendency to go overboard - - - if the indigenous American peoples are not "Indians", then why should they care that some sports team or other calls itself the Indians?

[Elderbush]

" While some non-europid traits still show up in me, it would be ridiculus for me to run around claiming to be an indian.

* Nobody said you should. But why can't other people?"

I don't quite get this. It is ok to claim to be kin to people who do not claim you as kin? It is ok to claim to belong to a culture you do not know or understand?

I do not think that this is an example of racism. Claiming to be something you are not is lying.

[moon_lit _lynx]

I don't approve of any one beoing racist in any form. I was on the reseving end of my fair share for the better part of a year when I was the only white boy on the block. Even if the topic of spirituality is brought into question I beleive that, especialy in America, every one should make a very personal choice in what they practice and not judge by the shell we walk in but the energy we all carry.

[Elderbush]

Sure, everyone can choose their personal spirituality and should. They may even self-identify as the High King of the Red Planet, or what have you, if they wish

No one should judge the value of another's path either, as long as it follows the law of the land.

Getting the other Kings of the Red Planet to acknowledge your high kingship might be a problem.:)

[Philosophia]

I don't quite get this. It is ok to claim to be kin to people who do not claim you as kin?

* Depends on the evidence a person has to prove their claim. If a person is a quarter aboriginal, does this mean that they can't have any claim to aboriginal spirituality? If a person's great-grandmother is aboriginal but all other members are caucasian, then does she have a right to follow her aboriginal spirituality?


It is ok to claim to belong to a culture you do not know or understand?

* No, it is not okay, which is why research is essential and learning your genealogy is crucial in determining it.

I do not think that this is an example of racism.

* Never said it was.

Claiming to be something you are not is lying.

* Of course it is.

[gurlygurl2004]

I don't think that's the best analogy, though. Christianity and Wicca are both explicitly open in theory, if not practice; they both take practices from other religions who can have more-intimate ties from certain deities (i.e., a Christian most likely doesn't descend from Christ, whereas any English heathen with the right geneaology map can see their descent from Odin).

I thought Wicca was a celtic thing. Okay maybe a druid is a better choice. And the point I was trying to make with Christianity is that it wasn't started by white Europeans. Christ was not as white as most people think. Christianity was started in the Middle East and North Africa(Egypt). But spread to Europe or more so the Roman Empire in later centuries after Christ's death.

[Elderbush]

"If a person's great-grandmother is aboriginal but all other members are caucasian, then does she have a right to follow her aboriginal spirituality?"

She has the right to follow aboriginal spirituality even if she is has no aboriginal blood because there is no law against it.

The aboriginal people do not have to accept her as one of them. There is no law against that either.

[Philosophia]

She has the right to follow aboriginal spirituality even if she is has no aboriginal blood because there is no law against it.

* Of course

The aboriginal people do not have to accept her as one of them. There is no law against that either.

* Of course there is no law against it, either. They may even not accept her if she was a full blooded aborgine.

[David19]

I don't think race has anything to do with religion, take christianity for example, if it was really the case that only people of a religion could only practice based on their race then the only christians would be middle eastern or jewish but there are lots of people who find spiritual fufilment with Jesus and God, also religion doesn't get passed in your blood since i'm part irish, jewish, english and iraqi, while i am interested certain religions from those areas lie Mesopatanian paganism, i'm not tied to it.

Also people have to realise that most ancesters didn't think that since people in England or Germany or Rome obvously found more comfort in christianity than their teutonic religion or Roman religion (people can say that it was forced on them and that churches were built on former temples, but i don't think they obvously saw something worth otherwise why would they go?, they weren't so dumb as to think that it was the same religion).

Anyway just thought i'd say that since religion and race don't matter

[gurlygurl2004]

I don't think race has anything to do with religion, take christianity for example, if it was really the case that only people of a religion could only practice based on their race then the only christians would be middle eastern or jewish but there are lots of people who find spiritual fufilment with Jesus and God, also religion doesn't get passed in your blood since i'm part irish, jewish, english and iraqi, while i am interested certain religions from those areas lie Mesopatanian paganism, i'm not tied to it.

Also people have to realise that most ancesters didn't think that since people in England or Germany or Rome obvously found more comfort in christianity than their teutonic religion or Roman religion (people can say that it was forced on them and that churches were built on former temples, but i don't think they obvously saw something worth otherwise why would they go?, they weren't so dumb as to think that it was the same religion).

Anyway just thought i'd say that since religion and race don't matter


Good point. That's why for an example if a black person wants to try celtic witchraft I say go for it, and white people should not be afraid of voodoo. I looked into that before it's not for me, but hey.

[Hangatyr 13]

* Since I can only speak for myself, I do hold people to the same standard. If you have evidence (with facts, not thoughts) to prove your opinions, then I have respect for you. If you don't, goodbye. If racists can prove their point with scientific facts, then I'll have a discussion with them.So you disapprove of racism because you don't think there's evidence to support it?:goodgrief

* A *B* class action series is your proof? If we are going on races in series, what about Rambo (demonizing other cultures), The fast and the furious, etc..
Walker, Texas Ranger has a leading "white" male with a "black" sidekick and a helpless woman who desperatley needs his help.Proof that the TV influences our concepts of right and wrong? You bet. (This is where the "brainwashing" comes in.) The black sidekick is what we like to call a "token black guy". The rasionale is the same as pitting Walker up against a bunch of unrealistic white supremasists. They have to do these things to to destroy all suspision that they are in any way promoting racism while at the same time telling people that "racism" is wrong by painting a one-sided picture of it. What exactly is it that you think I'm trying to prove?

* They call these entertainment, not facts. See above.You call these things entertainment. I call them propaganda.

* Or is it because Clinton has proven himself and David Duke hasn't?
Has David Duke got any policies that can help him get elected? Does David Duke's foreign policies hold any water?Do you even know who David Duke is? Can you tell me about his foriegn policies without looking it up on the internet? (Off the top of my head, I think he's an isolationist, but maybe I'm just getting him mixed up with Pat Buchanan). Ask an average American who David Duke is, and he'll probably tell you "He's that racist guy from Louisiana who ran for president in the eighties." Most people really don't know anything else about him. The word "racist" has overshadowed it all.

* :wtf: Yes, there is the Human race.There's also an animal kingdom, of which we are all a part. Would you feed yourself to a wolf to appease him, or do you give you alliegence uniformally to anything that walks upright and has an opposable thumb?

Let me ask you something, if a piece of land settled by white people, say, one you lived on, was given by your government back to the aboriginals, what would your opinion on the matter be? Would you betray your own people and support it, or would you have the pride in yourself and loyalty to your own people to oppose it?

* Not completely though. Historically speaking, nobody is pure white or even close to being "pure".I can actually name a non-white ancestor of mine from eight generations ago and I (as well as everyone else who knows me) still consider myself to be white. Are you trying to tell me that a little cross-breeding in my ancestory several centuries ago is in any way relevant?

* No, I'm not. :)You have no choice in the matter. As far as I know, there is no surgery that can change your ancestry. You were born folk and you'll die folk. Deny that and you deny yourself.

[Hangatyr 13]

I don't think race has anything to do with religion, take christianity for example, if it was really the case that only people of a religion could only practice based on their race then the only christians would be middle eastern or jewish but there are lots of people who find spiritual fufilment with Jesus and God, also religion doesn't get passed in your blood since i'm part irish, jewish, english and iraqi, while i am interested certain religions from those areas lie Mesopatanian paganism, i'm not tied to it.

Also people have to realise that most ancesters didn't think that since people in England or Germany or Rome obvously found more comfort in christianity than their teutonic religion or Roman religion (people can say that it was forced on them and that churches were built on former temples, but i don't think they obvously saw something worth otherwise why would they go?, they weren't so dumb as to think that it was the same religion).

Anyway just thought i'd say that since religion and race don't matterChristianity is not an ethnic religion, it's a universal religion, and like most other unversal religions, it was influenced in it's creation by the ethnic religion it displaced (it would never have been accepted otherwise), and like all universal religions, the way it's practiced varies from ethinic group to ethnic group. These things only serve as example of why we should all stick to our own ethnic religions.

Because I (for example) am white, my view of the world will always be "colored" by that. My Buddhism would be only be a "white" distortion of Buddhism, my Voodoo would be only a "white" distortion of Voodoo, my Peyoteism would only be a "white" distortion of Peyoteism. This is why I stick with Asatru, a religion for and by my own people, through and through.

[Philosophia]

So you disapprove of racism because you don't think there's evidence to support it?:goodgrief

* :wtf: I never stated this, so don't put words in my mouth. You asked whether people have the same standards and I said I do.

Proof that the TV influences our concepts of right and wrong? You bet. (This is where the "brainwashing" comes in.)

* I disagree, but you knew I would. I'm assuming that you also believe that nobody ever receives their morals from society itself, families, friends, etc..

The black sidekick is what we like to call a "token black guy".

* I know this. Does this mean you agree with the inferiority this places on African Americans and their relationship with Caucasian Americans?

The rasionale is the same as pitting Walker up against a bunch of unrealistic white supremasists. They have to do these things to to destroy all suspision that they are in any way promoting racism while at the same time telling people that "racism" is wrong by painting a one-sided picture of it.

* But again, I reiterate. It is a "B" grade action flick based upon a bastardization version of martial arts by an actor trying to regain some exposure in Hollywood.
However, if you want to use this as your basis, then perhaps you should also look at how they demonize Asians, Muslims, religion, and (OMG) "Blacks".
If this is your only evidence of "brainwashing" then I suggest you start to rethink your opinion.

What exactly is it that you think I'm trying to prove?

* Um, brainwashing.

You call these things entertainment. I call them propaganda.

* How are they propaganda? But I guess if you look closely at everything, it can be all propaganda. I imagine anything that goes against your opinions is propaganda, right?

Do you even know who David Duke is? Can you tell me about his foriegn policies without looking it up on the internet? (Off the top of my head, I think he's an isolationist, but maybe I'm just getting him mixed up with Pat Buchanan).

* Even you can't get his foriegn policies right. Unless he starts to reinstate what his beliefs and policies, his thoughts on the future of America and how he can be beneficial to the USA, then he has no real political backing.

Ask an average American who David Duke is, and he'll probably tell you "He's that racist guy from Louisiana who ran for president in the eighties." Most people really don't know anything else about him. The word "racist" has overshadowed it all.

* Maybe thats his fault and not American society? Just like Bill Clinton (the adulterer), he's already damaged his image through his views.

There's also an animal kingdom, of which we are all a part.

* Of course. But we are the human race.

Would you feed yourself to a wolf to appease him, or do you give you alliegence uniformally to anything that walks upright and has an opposable thumb?

* No and no. What this has to do

Let me ask you something, if a piece of land settled by white people, say, one you lived on, was given by your government back to the aboriginals, what would your opinion on the matter be?

* I'd say that they would have to prove their rights to that land first. If they can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, then maybe. Until then, the subject is an extremely grey area.

Would you betray your own people and support it, or would you have the pride in yourself and loyalty to your own people to oppose it?

* My people??? I am an Australian (first and foremost). My people are Australian, and this also includes Aborigines so this question is mute.

I can actually name a non-white ancestor of mine from eight generations ago and I (as well as everyone else who knows me) still consider myself to be white. Are you trying to tell me that a little cross-breeding in my ancestory several centuries ago is in any way relevant?

* I'm trying to tell you again, that there is no such thing as purely white. Of course the "cross breeding" is relevant because there is no such thing as pure blood.

You have no choice in the matter. As far as I know, there is no surgery that can change your ancestry. You were born folk and you'll die folk. Deny that and you deny yourself.

* I do have a choice, so don't deny me that right. I have a choice to determine who I consider my kin and you can't tell me otherwise. I'm only denying myself if I allow people to choose who I'm kin with. So don't try to tell me who I am.

[Elderbush]

Oh dear. I'm afraid that some kin you just get, whether you like it or not. You may not like them, you may not like the things they do, and you may choose to not spend time with them, but they are connected to you in definable and sometimes indefinable ways.

Think of it as circles within circles. "No man is an island..." and all that.

[Sage Rainsong]

Christianity is not an ethnic religion, it's a universal religion, and like most other unversal religions, it was influenced in it's creation by the ethnic religion it displaced (it would never have been accepted otherwise), and like all universal religions, the way it's practiced varies from ethinic group to ethnic group. These things only serve as example of why we should all stick to our own ethnic religions.

Because I (for example) am white, my view of the world will always be "colored" by that. My Buddhism would be only be a "white" distortion of Buddhism, my Voodoo would be only a "white" distortion of Voodoo, my Peyoteism would only be a "white" distortion of Peyoteism. This is why I stick with Asatru, a religion for and by my own people, through and through.

Im sorry but I feel the need to step in here. While you are certainly within your right to practice Asatru simply because your ancestors did does that automatically mean that other people can't? Would you teach a black person who is extremely willing to practice Asatru because it speaks to their soul; or would you turn them away becuase they may taint it in some way? Also do you honor your Christian and non white ancestors; or do you forget about their lives and struggles because they practiced foreign religions? Also what about adoption? To steal Pols senario; what if, say 3000 years ago a Spanish baby floated down a river to a Viking village. Lets say that they raised it in their culture. Does it make the child less worth of access to their religion?

[Hangatyr 13]

* I disagree, but you knew I would. I'm assuming that you also believe that nobody ever receives their morals from society itself, families, friends, etc..No, but a person's ability to think for himself comes into question when his moral priorities become just as ridiculus as the ones on TV.

* I know this. Does this mean you agree with the inferiority this places on African Americans and their relationship with Caucasian Americans?Nazi-hunt much? If you had taken what I said in context, you would know that that is not what I was trying to say.

The "token black guy" is a strategy used by the media to put themselves as far away from the "racist" label as possible. "We're not racist. Look, there's a black guy on our show. We even have an african-american history month special." It's the equivilant of a white person naming all of his non-white freinds while having a conversation about racism just to prove he's not a racist.

* But again, I reiterate. It is a "B" grade action flick based upon a bastardization version of martial arts by an actor trying to regain some exposure in Hollywood.
However, if you want to use this as your basis, then perhaps you should also look at how they demonize Asians, Muslims, religion, and (OMG) "Blacks".
If this is your only evidence of "brainwashing" then I suggest you start to rethink your opinion.Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Chuck Norris is like an eighth degree black-belt or something! Don't dis Chuck, man.:hehehehe:

You know, I don't really watch TV much any more, but I don't know what you're talking about. I've seen the media "demonize" white supremasists, while they glorify the "civil rights movement" (a series of criminal acts followed by federal police action against the states). I've never seen Asians demonized, but I have seen Native Americans painted by the media to be these good, pure peaceful martyrs.

Muslims? You know what? I'll give you that one. It probably does happen.:whatgives

* How are they propaganda? But I guess if you look closely at everything, it can be all propaganda. I imagine anything that goes against your opinions is propaganda, right?No, it's all propaganda. Some of it I agree with, most of it I don't. I just think it's funny when the opinions of your average person mirror that of the media. By saying "funny" what I mean is "disgusting".

* Even you can't get his foriegn policies right. Unless he starts to reinstate what his beliefs and policies, his thoughts on the future of America and how he can be beneficial to the USA, then he has no real political backing.Of course I can't get his foriegn policies right. Niether can hardly anyone else. The point is that most people don't know because he has been labeled a "racist", therefore, they will hear no more, and the media will say no more.

* I'd say that they would have to prove their rights to that land first. If they can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, then maybe. Until then, the subject is an extremely grey area.It's a racial issue, but one you don't want to recognize as such because you're afraid of being labeled a "racist".

* My people??? I am an Australian (first and foremost). My people are Australian, and this also includes Aborigines so this question is mute.You know, there are white people in America who think like this, and while they're thinking like this, the "black leadership" is trying to extract "reparations" for their people, the "hispanic leadership" is trying to get more of their people across the border, and the "native american leadership" is trying to get more federal hand-outs for their people. I can't blame any of these non-white people for wanting to look after their own, but I can and do blame people of my own race for doing nothing to oppose it for fear of being labeled a "racist".

* I'm trying to tell you again, that there is no such thing as purely white. Of course the "cross breeding" is relevant because there is no such thing as pure blood.It doesn't matter. Even if you could go generations up your family tree and find a non-white ancestor, you would still be white, and everyone else would see you as such. So, it is irrelevant.

* I do have a choice, so don't deny me that right. I have a choice to determine who I consider my kin and you can't tell me otherwise. I'm only denying myself if I allow people to choose who I'm kin with. So don't try to tell me who I am.It doesn't matter who you consider to be your kin. You are who you are, and when a person doesn't embrace who he is, it's a very sad thing. It's like the old saying "You can pick your friends, but you can't pick your family." You can't pick your race either.

[HarzWitch]

I have recently been thinking about racism in paganism. When I was very Naive I used to think that pagans were all open minded and weren't racist. Boy was I wrong!! (not just from this forum but various Asatru groups as well) It really sickens me. By the way most Asatru groups are extremely non- racist Im not refering to them. But I got to thinking about it. Many ethinic specific groups are trying to maintain or reconstruct various cultural religions. How important do you think ethnicity of your ancestors is when practicing another religion outside of your culture? Does a certain degree of racism matter?

Personally I don't think that it matterss. As long as the person of the other races knows full well what they are getting into and wants to fully assimilate in it. So for example I am not Greek but if I felt a spiritual pull towards them I would expect a Hellenic group to not reject me based on my ethnicity. But I wouldn't try to get them to include Shango or something. So anyway I would love to hear some thoughts.


Race is the determining factor. Let me illustrate a point!
Wotan dwells within the blood,the DNA of the Ario-Germanic peoples. This is handed down from one generation to another.Whilst Wotan may lie "dormant" for generations nevertheless he is still there and under the right spiritual conditions he can awaken.
For instance Jung in his essay on "Wotan" likened the rise of National Socialism and ethnic/racial awareness in northern Europe to Wotan being awakened.
He cannot be awakened in the blood or consciousness of an alien people or person. To hear Wotan is to hear the "call of the blood".

[Cassie]

Race is the determining factor. Let me illustrate a point!
Wotan dwells within the blood,the DNA of the Ario-Germanic peoples. This is handed down from one generation to another.Whilst Wotan may lie "dormant" for generations nevertheless he is still there and under the right spiritual conditions he can awaken.
For instance Jung in his essay on "Wotan" likened the rise of National Socialism and ethnic/racial awareness in northern Europe to Wotan being awakened.
He cannot be awakened in the blood or consciousness of an alien people or person. To hear Wotan is to hear the "call of the blood".
You are not really illustrating a point to anybody who doesn't already share your world view.
What you have said above means nothing to me. To me race is certainly not a determining factor.

[Sage Rainsong]

Race is the determining factor. Let me illustrate a point!
Wotan dwells within the blood,the DNA of the Ario-Germanic peoples. This is handed down from one generation to another.Whilst Wotan may lie "dormant" for generations nevertheless he is still there and under the right spiritual conditions he can awaken.
For instance Jung in his essay on "Wotan" likened the rise of National Socialism and ethnic/racial awareness in northern Europe to Wotan being awakened.
He cannot be awakened in the blood or consciousness of an alien people or person. To hear Wotan is to hear the "call of the blood".


Okay well I guess I prefer to think of the Gods as powerful spiritual beings rather than reduce and limit them to what sounds almost like a genetic disorder. Okay so I have another question for you. Wotan wasn't always worshiped. What about your ancestors that existed before his worship became prevelant? Do they have some nebulous Wotan like strain in their blood? Another point that I would like to make is that many other religions are open to allowing outsiders to worhip their Gods.