Gay Vs. Straight

[StormChaser]

Okay.. just so we can clear the air here..

By legal differences I mean that there should be bendable rules that may favor the straights or the not-so straights.

Does anyone here actually have a problem with gays and lesbians. If so what are the issues, and be prepared for a lot of people to tell you how ignorant you are as this is apparently a topic people just can't seem to avoid jumping all over.

[Myst]

I'm straight. Most of my friends are bi, a few are gay. Can't say I really give a d**n what sexual preference someone has :)

[Flaire-FireStar]

Yup.. I agree with you, Myst..
My best friend is bi and a couple of friends are gay (I have some great conversations w/ some of them too.. :D), and I have no problem being around them. They can go after whoever they please, and I won't say anything to them about it being wierd or whatever, but if the other person treats my friend badly, I'll try to help him/her out of their situation if need be, just as I would any of my straight friends. :)

[Shadowulfe]

I also agree with Myst. I'm Straight myself. I believe everyone should have EQUAL rights. i have quite a few gay/bi-sexual/lesbian friends. and a few of those friends are quite possibly the best friends i could ask for!

[Sequoia]

I'm Bi myself, leaning toward straight, but some gals. . . ^_~

My take on that aspect is that I just have the ability to romantically love either sex. (I havn't actually *tried* to do so; I'm in a very satisfying and happy and loving hetero relationship, and I don't really think that's going to change.) -_-; don't ask me "ooh how can you know you're bi if you havn't done anything?" -_-; when my boyfriend and I can have discussions about sexy women/men, or see the same woman and "drool" over her, I'm pretty darn sure of it ^_~

But what I want to know is, why bend the rules? either way? "ooh I'm straight gimmie a tax write-off!" "aww man, I'm gay, I'm at a disadvantage, give me special aid!" and so on. . . (I'm not saying gay people need aid, dont mis-quote me)

I think taxes should depend more on how much you make, how many people you support, how much it costs to live in your area, etc. Why should race, creed, religion, sexual orientation, or ANYTHING like that have an effect on your reconition as a citizen? -_-; goddess next thing you know, we'll have the "tax cut for good american christians!" bill from good old shrubbie. . .

*wanders off toward bed mumbling because it's WAAAAY to freakin late at night*

[MammaStar]

I agree with Puma. Shouldn't matter who you sleep with on how much taxes or "special privileges" you get, base it on your employment and how much you earn. I don't think area should count, cause I live about 30 miles north of NYC and we still pay WAY TOO HIGH taxes, which is why I can't afford a damn place for myself alone, cause it's too freakin' expensive!

[Angelwulfe]

like myst, flaire, and shadowulfe i'm straight but i believe everyone should have equal rights. i really don't care what peoples preferances are. i have family members and friends who are gay or bi and i have no problem with it. i used to be what some people call "bi-curious" i consider myself straight but i guess i what it comes down to is it would be possible for me to go both ways.

[Danustouch]

Straight..and equal rights for all.

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
I'm straight and for equal rights.I don't see this as a tax question,though.I think gay people should be able to legally be life partners.To pass their estates to the life partner just as a married couple can.To list their partner as the recipient of their life insurance.To adopt a child as a couple,or to let their partner adopt their child.
There's still a long way to go!
Peace and Love
BrightStar

[MammaStar]

Right on Brightstar! It's ridiculuous that my Uncle and his partner can't have each other on their health plans. That they each have to have their own, it's unbelieveable. What's the difference?? Well, I guess to some people they don't fit the "normal" scope of a family?? What's normal anyway? And who defines it?

This doesn't only apply to gay couples. Why is it that when a couple lives together for a long time, doesn't "officially" get married or anything, why can't they be claimed on health insurance and such?

Things need to change all around. Eshallet brought home his new medical forms the other day. The wording did include "life partner", which gave me some hope that things in my small part of the world have a chance to change.

One small step.......

[Chibi-Fallon]

That's why I hate politically correctness. I mean can't they just say "the person you love" or something it's a lot faster then going husband/wife/life partner/freaky polygamy deal and then everyone feels happy. Who's seen "High Society"? Gay or straight it a really funny movie. The gay brother (I forgot his name) in there is so funny, he's the best.

[Myst]

Originally posted by LdyStarlite
Why is it that when a couple lives together for a long time, doesn't "officially" get married or anything, why can't they be claimed on health insurance and such?

Actually it totally depends :) Here you live together for a couple months and you're suddenly "common law spouses" and treated as though you're married. Also I got on my fiance's health plan easily; I think it depends on the company. :)

[Psyche Ague]

I'm bi - pretty much right down the middle. (okay, maybe leaning towards girls...but I have a boyfriend...hi Radocs!!!:))

I'm completely for equal rights. I don't even distinguish between guys and girls, between gay, bi, lesbian, and straight. It just doesn't seem to matter. So...equal rights for all!!!

[Niamh]

I'm straight and for equal rights all the way.

In Washington, DC health plans had to offer to the employee's life partner, whether gay or straight. My employer was very matter of fact about it. I could tell he could care less if I was living with a man or a woman, and he didn't ask.

I just read an article in the new issue of Yankee magazine (covers New England, USA). There was a great article on the struggle for marriage rights for gay people in Vermont. And what a struggle it was. There aren't even words to describe what the couple went through, and I cannot imagine what it was like for them!

[Radocs]

I'm straight (Hi Psyche ;)) and I'm all for equal rights.

[keelyoherne]

I'm straight with quite a few gay friends and acquaintances.

I have no more problem with a person with a sexual preference that is different from mine.

At my last job there were quite a few gays and lesbians, and for the most part they were great people. However, there were a couple bitchy, whiny queens that I just wanted to smack around.:bad: However, I would have wanted smack 'em around regardless of sexual preference. I just don't like whining.

Keely

[Wyrdsister]

I'm kind of curious as to why this question is being asked again. ?? Care to enlighten us StormChaser? Have you been having some experiences with people who are less than open minded about this issue?

Wyrdsister

[Wyrdsister]

Just clued in StormChaser, hadn't read the other thread yet. :) I understand perfectly now!

*HUG*

Wyrdsister

[StormChaser]

S'all good!

[Siren]

I am "not quite straight...leaning towards bi"

and equal rights for everyone.....

:smoke:

[MistOfTheSea86]

RAINBOW POWER TO ALL!!!!!!!!



MISSSTTT!!!!! TASTE THE RAINBOW!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


Yeah I agree with you Guys, Everyone should be treated as humans, not labled under some damn word. We are who we are and THATS IT, we shouldnt try to get special treatment nor should we get bashed for it. We had a very interesting discussion on this before and alot of good points were made. Like the fact, that in the Strictist sense of the word Homosexuality "Deviates" from nature, I hate to admit but its true. Does that make us any less human? No, does that make us incapable of raising a stable family? Absoltely not. It just means we get a couple of looks some times, Big deal. If we are happy and content with who we are. SOme closeminded fool shouldn't affect our happiness.

[StormChaser]

Correction: It deviates to what we as humans in society NOW consider "nature" and "natural".

Years ago, a couple hundred or so, and even further back and beyond, many of the "elite" men had "mistresses" of the male gender. Then again, go back far enough you learn that men wore the first high heels, and their clothing often looked like something more feminine than what we consider "acceptable" and "normal" wear for a guy now.

Nature creates us diverse. I knew when I was in kindergarden, that I was attracted to both males and females. I didn't know there was anything unnatural about it. I just knew that I wrote love letters to Jenny and Scott... they wrote them back to. But we pretended like we didn't like the letters so no one would make fun of us. Because it wasn't "normal" to "like" or "be attracted" to ANYONE in kindergarden.


reality is determined by mass concensus. And in our definition of reality we set up standards for what is and isn't normal.

If cat's, and dogs, and humans, all share the "ability" to be homosexual.. how can it be simply "unnatural". It shows that nature "afflicts" all beasts with this "unnatural" "not normal" behavior and desire. The exscuse I hear many people say is that "homosexuality is a choice". Well that may be the case, but these same people often tend to say that "animals, like pets, run only on instinct" Well.. if that's true, then they instinctually are attracted to animals of the same gender.. that is not a choice.
People entirely forget that humans are animals too. Perhaps we too are not above natures way of "limiting" the population through natural but not "sad" means. Certain frogs and fish change gender according to the need of the survival of their species. Why is it natural for them, and unnatural for humans.

The double standards and hypocracy are quite clear.
To me it seems a little too much to say that any behavior or choice made by a human or any other animal is a deviation from nature. I would be more inclined to say that it is the evelution of nature.

Think about it, the evolution of people entails that humans can love all humans.. not just one particular secular brand of people.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by StormChaser
Correction: It deviates to what we as humans in society NOW consider "nature" and "natural".

Years ago, a couple hundred or so, and even further back and beyond, many of the "elite" men had "mistresses" of the male gender. Then again, go back far enough you learn that men wore the first high heels, and their clothing often looked like something more feminine than what we consider "acceptable" and "normal" wear for a guy now.

Nature creates us diverse. I knew when I was in kindergarden, that I was attracted to both males and females. I didn't know there was anything unnatural about it. I just knew that I wrote love letters to Jenny and Scott... they wrote them back to. But we pretended like we didn't like the letters so no one would make fun of us. Because it wasn't "normal" to "like" or "be attracted" to ANYONE in kindergarden.


reality is determined by mass concensus. And in our definition of reality we set up standards for what is and isn't normal.

If cat's, and dogs, and humans, all share the "ability" to be homosexual.. how can it be simply "unnatural". It shows that nature "afflicts" all beasts with this "unnatural" "not normal" behavior and desire. The exscuse I hear many people say is that "homosexuality is a choice". Well that may be the case, but these same people often tend to say that "animals, like pets, run only on instinct" Well.. if that's true, then they instinctually are attracted to animals of the same gender.. that is not a choice.
People entirely forget that humans are animals too. Perhaps we too are not above natures way of "limiting" the population through natural but not "sad" means. Certain frogs and fish change gender according to the need of the survival of their species. Why is it natural for them, and unnatural for humans.

The double standards and hypocracy are quite clear.
To me it seems a little too much to say that any behavior or choice made by a human or any other animal is a deviation from nature. I would be more inclined to say that it is the evelution of nature.

Think about it, the evolution of people entails that humans can love all humans.. not just one particular secular brand of people.

I completely agree with you...

[MistOfTheSea86]

I am biologically speaking not ethically or morally. Because morally it's deviates from nothing, but biologically it does. That is the truth.

[StormChaser]

how does it deviate biologically if nature creates people this way.

Thats like saying that having 20 15 eyesite or dislikeing carrots
is biologically a faux pas, because eyes are supposed to work perfectly not TOO perfectly, and your body needs carrots so you SHOULD like them. One is something you are physically born with and can't "fix" per se. The other is something your body tells you..
something triggers your brain to say "yuck" and therefore you determine that you will no longer eat these things because they just do not appeal to you. You make a choice based on your bodies reaction. This is instinct. This is far from unnatural

Being attracted to men and women.. i look at a good looking either, or meet one of either or both that does something to me.. my hormones click and I feel "attraction". This is not a choice. My choice comes when i pursue my attraction. And this too is natural.. it takes a lot to deny "nature" and "natural" feelings. And can be more harmful to deny than to accept and support those feelings.

Homosexuality is still, hardly, biologically a deviation in the negative sense of the word. It is an alteration, it is a new variable. It doesn't go against nature, but embraces a different side of nature. Simply because it is impossible for a homosexual couple to concieve with only each other, does not make them unnatural, because part of humanities evolving was it's ability to share the responsibility of young, or hand over resposibility to others more capable, more deserving, and or more desiring of the task. This means that while these people can't have children, those who can and cannot or do not want them or can support them, can give the homosexuals the oppertunity to do their part in "ensuring" the human species survival.

Further proof that homosexuality is not unnatural biologically.
Humans are an interdependant species, this allows for more adaptations in such things as sexual preference and life style.

Not everyone is born with down syndrom, and for this reason it is considered unnatural. Considering things beyond what is accepted or recognized by the masses leads to thinking beyond the box. When you start thinking outside the box you see that all things are natural.. all things are possibly possible.

[Siren]

So many things have been created to help with those biological problems....*grin*

and you all know how gay men have sex, right???? i mean, that seems to fit well too....

[Myst]

The "is it unnatural" argument belongs here - http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10359

[StormChaser]

think i should repost it there? I think it's more fitting.

I kinda liked the way i phrased it

*i should have been named: girl who likes to hear herself talk*

[MagickHLHgurl]

Well im able to fall in love with men and women(m not labeling myself due o the fact that i hate lables) and i have done so....i completey believe thateveryone should be treated as human and just that...no one should be considered for special privliages or have privliages taken away because of their sexual prefrence...i dont understand wny same-sex couples can't get married....is it cause peoplethink they can't really be in love?...or is it just fear? i don know.....bt i cant understand being afraid of a gay or lesbian couple....they are just like anyothercouple...they fight, laugh together go out on dates, make love, want to have children either though adoption or by other means....i just dont get the wold today

[StormChaser]

I'm with you MagickHGurl! 100% I just dont get it!

[Maggie]

Originally posted by StormChaser
Okay.. just so we can clear the air here..

By legal differences I mean that there should be bendable rules that may favor the straights or the not-so straights.

Does anyone here actually have a problem with gays and lesbians. If so what are the issues, and be prepared for a lot of people to tell you how ignorant you are as this is apparently a topic people just can't seem to avoid jumping all over.


I fail to see why there is a problem at all. Human sexuality is a continuum, with all variations occuring naturally. What kind of person someone is is more important than who they go to bed is. That choice is personal and is no one's business but their own.

Maggie

[Angelwulfe]

Originally posted by StormChaser
how does it deviate biologically if nature creates people this way.

Thats like saying that having 20 15 eyesite or dislikeing carrots
is biologically a faux pas, because eyes are supposed to work perfectly not TOO perfectly, and your body needs carrots so you SHOULD like them. One is something you are physically born with and can't "fix" per se. The other is something your body tells you..
something triggers your brain to say "yuck" and therefore you determine that you will no longer eat these things because they just do not appeal to you. You make a choice based on your bodies reaction. This is instinct. This is far from unnatural

Being attracted to men and women.. i look at a good looking either, or meet one of either or both that does something to me.. my hormones click and I feel "attraction". This is not a choice. My choice comes when i pursue my attraction. And this too is natural.. it takes a lot to deny "nature" and "natural" feelings. And can be more harmful to deny than to accept and support those feelings.

Homosexuality is still, hardly, biologically a deviation in the negative sense of the word. It is an alteration, it is a new variable. It doesn't go against nature, but embraces a different side of nature. Simply because it is impossible for a homosexual couple to concieve with only each other, does not make them unnatural, because part of humanities evolving was it's ability to share the responsibility of young, or hand over resposibility to others more capable, more deserving, and or more desiring of the task. This means that while these people can't have children, those who can and cannot or do not want them or can support them, can give the homosexuals the oppertunity to do their part in "ensuring" the human species survival.

Further proof that homosexuality is not unnatural biologically.
Humans are an interdependant species, this allows for more adaptations in such things as sexual preference and life style.

Not everyone is born with down syndrom, and for this reason it is considered unnatural. Considering things beyond what is accepted or recognized by the masses leads to thinking beyond the box. When you start thinking outside the box you see that all things are natural.. all things are possibly possible.
i think what he's trying to say(please correct me if i'm wrong mist of the sea) is it's not natural biologically in the sense that you can't reproduce in a homosexual relationship. that isn't to say one can't raise a normal healthy family in a lesbian/ gay realtionship. from a strictly biological point of view sex is there to reproduce, to keep a species alive. obviously this isn't the only reason people have sex and it's obviously a good thing that it's not or the world would be even more overpopulated than it already is. so in a way gays and lesbians help keep overpopulation at bay.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Angelwulfe

i think what he's trying to say(please correct me if i'm wrong mist of the sea) is it's not natural biologically in the sense that you can't reproduce in a homosexual relationship. that isn't to say one can't raise a normal healthy family in a lesbian/ gay realtionship. from a strictly biological point of view sex is there to reproduce, to keep a species alive. obviously this isn't the only reason people have sex and it's obviously a good thing that it's not or the world would be even more overpopulated than it already is. so in a way gays and lesbians help keep overpopulation at bay.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Myst]

Well good for you guys!

(psst then again not all straight couples have kids either)

[Angelwulfe]

Originally posted by Myst
Well good for you guys!

(psst then again not all straight couples have kids either)
very true. i was just trying to stay on topic by talking about gays/lesbians.:)

[Rævyn Cigány]

I'm straight, but I believe in equal rights no matter what your preference :)

BB

Rae )0(

[Haedis]

I'm capable of being attracted to both male and female. I'm not leaning towards men or women because it really depends on the person. I believe in equal rights for everyone. I have absolutely no problem with gay people, and I dont even really notice gay couples. I dont even really think about it if I see two people of the same gender kissing, I dont think "oh they're gay" I just see another couple kissing.

[shnen]

when it comes down to it, we are all human beings. no matter race, gender or sexual preference.

funny, i was talking with a guy at work who is dead set against gays and lesbians raising children. I pointed out that regardless of sexual orientation, as long as the children are raised with love who cares. A straight couple can do just as much damage as a gay or lesbian couple.

[SerenityMoon]

well i'm straight, have several gay/bi-sexual friends, and they are just the sweetest and most open minded people!!
Puma Hime: while i'm not going to say that you AREN't bi-sexual, being attracted to women doesn't automatically make you so. Derek and I watch women all the time, and talk about whether or not we find them attractive, but i dno't yet consider myself full-blown bisexual. I consider myself more bi-curious than anything. In my opinion, you don't really konw until you've experienced SOMETHING (and it can be anything, it doesnt have to be sex) that tells you that you are bisexual...lusting for someone of the same sex or being attracted them (whether it's physically or mentally) is quite normal of straight people whether they want to admit it or not. Keep in mind that i'm not saying you don't know your sexuality, just be careful in saying you're bisexual by just basing it off of attraction ^_^

[WandererInGray]

*shrugs and smiles* People are people....though sometimes I wonder if there aren't more *nice* gay people out there than straight. ;)

I'm straight...*shrugs*...never really had an occasion to try otherwise. But my oldest sister is Bi, and my family has never thought it a big deal. *smiles*

[adament]

i'm straight.....but who cares?

i really really DON'T wanna know what other people are doing behind closed doors....it's none of my business...

i think anyone who wants to get married should be able to get married...and then five years later, have to give away 1/2 of their good "stuff" via divorce just like i did...

adament

[Sequoia]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon
well i'm straight, have several gay/bi-sexual friends, and they are just the sweetest and most open minded people!!
Puma Hime: while i'm not going to say that you AREN't bi-sexual, being attracted to women doesn't automatically make you so. Derek and I watch women all the time, and talk about whether or not we find them attractive, but i dno't yet consider myself full-blown bisexual. I consider myself more bi-curious than anything. In my opinion, you don't really konw until you've experienced SOMETHING (and it can be anything, it doesnt have to be sex) that tells you that you are bisexual...lusting for someone of the same sex or being attracted them (whether it's physically or mentally) is quite normal of straight people whether they want to admit it or not. Keep in mind that i'm not saying you don't know your sexuality, just be careful in saying you're bisexual by just basing it off of attraction ^_^

ah. . . SerenityMoon? by this idea. . . one does not know if you are straight, either, until you have experienced something with a man (if you're female, with a woman if you're male). I know for a fact that I am bisexual, and although I don't quite feel like making my life experiences the subject of public debate. . . :rolleyes: I think I know my sexual orientation. If you're basing this entirely on my previous post, my life *has* changed a bit since then. If you're basing this on personal things. . . can you discuss this with me outside of MW? Or question all people who have said they are bi-sexual here? I really don't appreciate being singled out.

[WandererInGray]

*hugs Puma*

My sis has never had an "experience" with a woman either....*shrugs*....big deal, she's still bi-sexual.

That's like saying that all gay/lesbian people wouldn't be so if they'd just not had "experiences" with the same sex.

Even if I did have an "experience" with another woman, probably still wouldn't make me bi-sexual. :D I like the shape of guys too much.

[Sequoia]

thankies *hugs back*

besides, I don't know about anyone else. . . but I didn't exactly run around in the middle of public, waving my arms, calling out "I JUST HAD SEX WITH A MAN, THAT MAKES ME STRAIGHT! I'M STRAIGHT BECAUSE I SLEPT WITH A MAN!", why should someone have to tell about their sex life to prove it?

it's like *blink* okay. . . and I know of lesbian women who had been married and slept with men, but that doesn't change the fact that later on they realized they were lesbian. It just means they happened to have slept with a male. Are they "not really lesbians"?

[PrincessHLHofMW]

hehe i just realised i have already voted once on MAgickHLHGURL but oh well's i still feel the same as i did then....and just because someone hasnt had an experience doesn't mean that they are of a particular sexual orientaition...i came out to my mother in about 8th or 9th grade....while i didnt have my first experience until i was in 10th grade i didnt fall in love with another female till 11th....i mean i always knew...ya know? all the little girls had crushes on the guys while i had crushes on the guys and girls on tv and in real life....at age four i asked my mom why so many people hated men who loved men and women who loved women.....i said "i dont care as long as they are happy. that's all that matters." and continued practicing my ballet...hehehe

[SerenityMoon]

*sigh* how did i know that would be taken the wrong way?
i "singled you out" (as you like to put it, i guess replying to your friend singles them out) becuase i know you outside of MW and was curious. i even SAID it didn't have to be sexual experience, it could be anything, such as even sitting down and just talking, and coming to a realization.
i also said that i wasn't denying your sexuality, i was just saying that a lot of people mistake attraction and lust for a change of sexuality. jeez.
why didn't i question everyone? becuase you're the only one that mentioned pointing out attractive girls as a reason for being bisexual, and i don't agree with that. i'm allowed to disagree, aren't i?
i wish people would actually READ what i say, becuase i STATED in black and white: "Keep in mind that i'm not saying you don't know your sexuality".
why respond with "i think i know my sexuality" after i just said you did?

[Psyche Ague]

I'd like to throw in my two cents. I've had countless people question my bisexuality. It seems like everyone has but me! I believe that orientation does not really matter and that there are no real definitive lines between gay and straight and bisexual. I just can't think of them as completely separate from the others.

Also, I believe you're "attracted to" whomever you fall in love with. A "straight" woman can fall in love with another woman, a "gay" woman can fall in love with a man. The same with men. I think closing doors limits one in love. If you're not comfortable being with a member of the same or opposite sex, that's up to you.

I also don't think experience has anything at all to do with love. You can love someone and never sleep with them.

[SerenityMoon]

*bashes head against wall*, again, when i said EXPERIENCE, i said it could be anything, NOT sex.
to me, experience can mean a discovery, and a discovery can be made through ANYTHIGN, whether it's sitting down and talking, or writing, or merely just thinking!!
Part of the reason i questioned puma hime's reasonings was becuase of exactly what Psyche just said: there are no definitive lines. I'm basically just tired of the labelling. I've had too many people say i'm bisexual just becuase i am attracted to one of my best friends and love her (and being IN LOVE and loving someone are two different things), but to me, I just plain love her, becuase she's very speical to me. Some people would call me bisexual becuase of this.
THEREFORE, I wanted to know what made pume hime decide she was bisexual.

[Sequoia]

Okay, we'd really like to go into this?

hmm. I think kissing and spending some time with another woman would qualify me as bi-sexual. Thank you. I'm glad we needed to announce this to the whole community.

Now then, Serenity. Does this qualify me as bi-sexual?

And aside from that, without being inside someone's head and heart, how can you truely know what they feel? Allow me to clarify this for you - I am sexually attracted to both males and females. I am more likely to be attracted to a male, but I 'swing both ways'.

There's no reason to throw a temper tantrum about this. I dissagree with you, and I feel as though you keep trying to push your point, instead of letting it drop.

And in general. . . . why must I prove anything about my sexual orientation? Jeebus. I, too, think you will be attracted to whomever you fall in love with. I've found this out, more than once. There are types of people I find attractive, but if I love someone in that way, I am usually attracted to them. I think this is pretty much natural.

I personally do not care if anyone is straight, bi-sexual, or gay. I really could care less. Love is love is love, to me.

[Phoenix Blue]

*Ahem*

Psyche Ague, I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think it's a matter of being one of three. If anything, it's a sliding scale. Some folks are toward one end, some are toward the other, and most lie somewhere in-between. I'm probably about 98% straight. . . **grins** but I have seen a couple meen that, while not "doable," were certainly attractive.

But to paraphrase Wanderer, I like the shape of the female body way too much to even consider giving it up. Wanderer's female body, in particular! :bigredgri

[Rick]

...I'm 100% red blooded heterosexual male... but that Tom Selleck is a fine lookin' man... he could have me, if he bought me a Jag... or a Chevy... ;)

[Azure]

I tend to agree with the Kinsey scale of 1 to 6 with 1 being completely hetero and 6 being completely gay. Most people are more like 2s and 5s than 1s and 6s.

edited for spelling error

[SerenityMoon]

LOL temper tantrum, riiight.
i'm not even going to go further, becuase you STILL don't understand a word i'm saying...as is usually with you and i. lol i find it amusing that you restated nothing i said correctly.
*yawns and stretches* i'm through with THIS exchange of words, that's for sure...

[MistOfTheSea86]

Okay, my thoughts, Equal rights gay/straight/bi.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally posted by MistOfTheSea86
Okay, my thoughts, Equal rights gay/straight/bi.

I agree. Why should people be treated differently because of their sexual orientation?

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by MistOfTheSea86
Okay, my thoughts, Equal rights gay/straight/bi.

I honestly don't know why it's even up for discussion - it should be reality, and that's all there is to it.

[Annika]

I don't think that there should be any differences in various rights or priveledges based on the gender of who a person is sleeping with.

[Gwion]

Originally posted by StormChaser
[B] be prepared for a lot of people to tell you how ignorant you are

I say there is no darkness but ignorance, in which thou art
more puzzled than the Egyptians in their fog.
Clown, TWELFTH NIGHT, IV, ii

Wait, which opinion is it that we're to be told we're ignorant for having? Forgive my ignorance.

Ah, now I've read the thread and have a sense of the issue. I date bisexual women almost exclusively, and have had deep friendships with lipstick lesbians. On the other hand, I seem to have a deep mutual antipathy with dykes and gay men. I agree that all should have equal rights, but I am against gay couples adopting or raising children. To me, purple is the color of Royalty as it has been for centuries, and I wear it. Rainbows are beautiful and are not symbolic of any particular sexuality, and Faeries are Faeries.

[Sequoia]

Equal rights for all!

*waves a banner with her initials on it. . . E R A*

(yes, those are actually my initials. My aunts had a field day when I was born *grins*)

[StoneDragon]

the hole thing sound like a a religon war and that one person cant say one thing about it with out it being questioned its like yes i know i sound mean but its true why bother to know is some one is gay or not does it really mak a differance well i know to me it does not just like religon prepherance does not atter to me as long as its not being preched to me i will be happy with it .


""" YES I KNOW MY SPELLING BITES OWELL""""""LOL

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Gwion:
I agree that all should have equal rights, but I am against gay couples adopting or raising children.
I don't think you get this both ways. Equal rights, by definition, applies to adopting and/or raising children.

[Azure]

I know a whole lot of gay people who would make much better parents than any number of straight people who are.

My college roommate grew up with her gay father and his partner, and it didn't hurt her at all.

[WandererInGray]

I'm curious why you feel that way, Gwion? Would you care to expand? *smiles*

I grew up in a loving stable, two parent home (one of each). *shrugs* And I turned out fine. But I don't doubt that if I'd grown up in a loving, two parent home (two females or males) that it would have been just as fine.
(*or a loving single parent home...that's just not part of the dicussion)

[Psyche Ague]

I think if someone loves and raises a child, the child will turn out just fine. Whether it's a single father or mother, two mothers, two fathers, a mother and a father, or an aunt or grandparents, if the child is loved and cared for and fed and given room to grow, it will bloom.

[SerenityMoon]

indeed, Psyche! I mean, look at the horrible straight parents we have out there! Who they are or who they love doesn't really matter, it's how they raise and love their child...
we had a discussion in our government class about gay parents and gay teachers, and being the small texas town this is, my professor went on and on about how she wouldn't want her children being taught by a gay teacher. I stood up and said "why the hell not? if he or she is a good teacher, and isn't bringing his or her personal life into teacher (which any teacher shouldn't do anyway, whether they are gay or straight), then why do you care?" and nobody could really respond. just goes to show that they dont' HAVE a reason, they're just ignoranta nd scared of waht they don't know.

[MammaStar]

I honestly don't know why it's even up for discussion - it should be reality, and that's all there is

Absolutely Raevyn. Unfortuneately, there's too many people out there who make those rules that don't agree with us.

Wanderer: for answers to the question you posed to Gwion...check here and you'll understand further:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13645&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

[Gwion]

There is a healthy biological and psychological balance of energy in being raised by a mother and father, female and male. That's just how it works in nature. The only way a gay couple can reproduce is with either a third party or a test tube or both.

Secondly, I don't see how my opinion on the issue of illegitimate children relates to this topic. Perhaps LdyStarlite would like to compare and contrast?

[Emaleth]

I believe in equal rights for all, what does it matter if someone is straight or gay? This also includes adopting and raising children. Maybe thanks to the fact that gay couples can't have children (biologically) and make a responsible and well - thought decision about adoption, they make a lot better parents than some straight couples, who often have children by accident rather than by choice.

As for other discussions, I think all of us (or most) are bi to some extent. The thing is that the society expects us to decide and label ourselves as gay/bi/straight. But people are just people, you never know with whom you'll fall in love and when you're attracted to someone it's not because it's a man or a woman, but because the person attracts you .

Blessed Be

[Semele]

There are a lot of gay couples who would and do make great parents..but there are a lot of gay couples who would and do make horrible parents...hhhhmmmm rather like straight folks.

I fail to see where or how someone exercises their sexual preference causes harm to a child unless it is in front of said child. The only real harm in gay couples raising children is the perception and acceptance or lack of by outsiders, which sadly, is a big part of growing up. However if we teach our children about love and acceptance by example, sometimes there is a chance they will prevail over the hateful things the world throws at them. This goes for all things.

[MammaStar]

I sited your post in the Pagan Family thread, to show that you have very strong opinions on how a child should be raised. I'm sorry if that annoyed you, but I wanted the point made. Probably not the best way to do it, however.

You have your opinion on how children should be raised and I have mine. I happen to feel strongly that it doesn't matter how a child is raised, as long as it is loved. And if that means two GAY men or two lesbian women raise that child, as long as said child is loved, it shouldn't matter.

EVERYONE deserves the same right as the next to exist in this world. Gay, straight, bi, purple, yellow, or Rainbow. No one should be discrminated because they love differently than their neighbor.

[WandererInGray]

Actually her pointing me to that post was very helpful.



Originally posted by Gwion
That's just how it works in nature.

:rolleyes: How it works in nature? Um....how it works a great deal of the time in nature is like this:

A) Male impregnates female

B) Male takes off

C) Female has baby and cares for baby


Or how does the herd mentality fit into your defintion of "natural"?? Where one stallion fathers numerous colts and doesn't take care of them.

Nature has more diverse roles for parenting than even us humans do.

[Semele]

Originally posted by WandererInGray

Or how does the herd mentality fit into your defintion of "natural"?? Where one stallion fathers numerous colts and doesn't take care of them.


Yeah...or how about the lion thing when a new male takes over the pride and kills off all the offspring of the old alpha male so that the females will be ready to mate with him and build his own bloodline??? Should we adopt that practice as well? Damn pesky stepkids!!;)

[MammaStar]

Originally posted by Semele
Yeah...or how about the lion thing when a new male takes over the pride and kills off all the offspring of the old alpha male so that the females will be ready to mate with him and build his own bloodline??? Should we adopt that practice as well? Damn pesky stepkids!!;)


Boy oh boy would me and my bro be in BIG trouble if things worked that way.....:eek:

[WandererInGray]

:bad: Not the child....but can I eat the ex instead?

:eek: Was that my outloud voice again???....sorry.....:bigredgri

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Gwion:
There is a healthy biological and psychological balance of energy in being raised by a mother and father, female and male. That's just how it works in nature. The only way a gay couple can reproduce is with either a third party or a test tube or both.

There is more to life, and far more to raising a child, than simple reproduction. Perhaps you're a father yourself, in which case you already know this. Or perhaps you will become a father someday; and then you will learn it firsthand.

The reasoning you use that would deprive non-hetero couples the experience of childrearing was the same reasoning early Wiccan traditions used--fifty years ago--to discriminate against homosexual membership within covens. Wicca outgrew it.

[Phoenix Blue]

Originally posted by WandererInGray
:bad: Not the child....but can I eat the ex instead?

:eek: Was that my outloud voice again???....sorry.....:bigredgri http://images.deviantart.com/emoticons/odd/icon_rofl.gif

Yes, that was your out-loud voice again. . . :hearteyes

And no, you can't! You'd have indigestion for a week. . .

[Azure]

Just worth a note the "traditional" nuclear family of one parent of each sex raising their children alone is a pretty new idea in theory, and even newer in modern practice. Historically in most cultures, the extended family is the norm, where children are raised with grandparents aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. In many cultures, including the west, prior to the seventeenth century that included upper class children being "fostered" out with entirely different extended families at the age of seven or eight, and lower and middle class children being apprenticed to a trade at about the same age.

The nuclear family idea sprung largely from the philosophy of Rousseau and gained popularity in the eighteen century - who posited that the "natural" role of women was only motherhood, and likewise that she should raise her children herself (never mind that Rousseau abandoned all of his four at orphanages upon their births). It set up the social structure for the rise of Industrial Revolution era capitalism.

In practice, the ideal nuclear family has really been a post WWII reality for most people. My grandparents all came from extended farm families. The post-war boom changed all of that.

So the idea that it is a historical "norm" for a child to be raised by only one parent of each sex is not really very accurate. And this is the short version, leaving out the norm of live in teachers, boarding schools, working children prior to child welfare laws and much, much more.

edited for a silly spelling error

[Gwion]

my professor went on and on about how she wouldn't want her children being taught by a gay teacher.

Think many Catholics might think twice about having their boys taught by gay Priests?

[MammaStar]

Originally posted by Gwion
Think many Catholics might think twice about having their boys taught by gay Priests?

Wow, Gwion, I actually didn't think of that, at least conciously, until you posted that....

Heh. I wonder the outspoken one's, the one's crying "it's against God!" all the time, have dealt with the knowledge that chances are if they sent their child to a Parochial school, they were taught by a gay man....

Makes one think don't it. :cool:

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Gwion:
Think many Catholics might think twice about having their boys taught by gay Priests?
<sarcasm>
Because of course, all pedophiles are gay.
</sarcasm>

:rolleyes:

[Psyche Ague]

Originally posted by Gwion
Think many Catholics might think twice about having their boys taught by gay Priests?

I'm not entirely sure what you're implying, so I'm not going to attack your statement.

I don't see why Catholics should worry about their boys being taught by gay priests. Do they worry equally about their girls being taught by straight priests? No, probably not. Straight priests are considered "pure" and "holy" and "chaste," but gay priests and gay people in general seem to be viewed as "corrupt" and "degenerate" and "dirty." This is obviously crap.

But I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or what. It's so difficult to decipher emotion from words on a screen.

[Alaiyo]

Originally posted by Semele
Yeah...or how about the lion thing when a new male takes over the pride and kills off all the offspring of the old alpha male so that the females will be ready to mate with him and build his own bloodline??? Should we adopt that practice as well? Damn pesky stepkids!!;)

That was actually normal life in much of feudal Japan except that females and children children (meaning honest to goodness not shed their baby teeth yet children) weren't always exempt from the killing.

The most famous incident that took place that highlighted this behaviour was the war in the 12th century that took place between the Minamoto clan (the Genji) and the Taira clan (the Heike). The claim was that the Heike, who were related to the throne of Japan (though technically Japan wasn't really a united country until the 1500s-1600s) by marriage (a daughter married into the royal family) was abusing their power and snatching land and being bad all around.

One of the clans that opposed them were the Genji and in an early battle the rebels were killed for the most part--all the male members and most of their sons. The person that would revivive the Genji clan and then proceed to destroy the Heike and establish the first Shogunate, Yoritomo was spared because the either the mother or the grandmother of the future emperor (I can't remember which she was) pleaded for his life and so he was exiled.

The future emperor died in the battle of Dan-No-Ura because his grandmother drowned him and herself rather than witness the Genji kill him because though a child he would grow up and like oppose them and they (Genji) also were out to wipe out any traces of the Taira clan that might have any legitimacy to the throne.

If you read any books about this, the body count is quite big. I was surprised by the fact that just being related someone on either side no matter how old you were could cost you your life, especially as a male. I 've never read a character list where most of the major and supporting characters didn't make it to the end of the book.

I know that this observation was very thinly related to the who makes bettter parents discussion but here you had a society that was in practice for the most part very hetero and yet treated children as political pawns to be used and discarded because of what they represented to someone on any given Sunday.

As far as the "who are the better parents" I've heard everything from "gays have no morals" to "the children grow up confused."

I have also heard one of the main opponents of "gay families" say that "the male and female relationship teaches children different but important things. Men teach the children how to take risks and they provide discipline and stability. Women nuture children and teach girls how to be feminine."

That remark I remember came from the Diane Sawyer special about the gay adoption case where the couple in Florida had taken in the "problem children" as foster children and when one's case of HIV was in remission such that he was no longer a very sickly children the state wanted to take him and place him out for adoption instead of letting the family that nutured him adopt him. In terms of the individual that made that comment, I would have quasi respected his position if he had said anything other than that. He was a House rep.

I found the remark ridiculous and the idea that the only way to get well adjusted children is to have them grow up in hetero homes. I hear often "they'll turn the kids gay or confuse them sexually."

A) Given ALL of the mixed messages that exist about sexuality and sexual practice in our society, who has NOT grown up the least bit confused even with the best of parents?

B) Okay, if people feel so adamantly that gay parents confuse children then why not have gay parents adopt gay children? Surely for gay children living in a hetero household they must be so very confused and the parents can't understand how to nuture such a child and if the child is going to be immoral anyway, why not let the child grow up with its own immoral kind? Saves a lot of money in reeducation.

As to legislation, the government has passed legislation before that ran contrary to the moral convictions of many US citizens. The Prohibition Act and the Repeal of Prohibition Act comes to mind, as do the 13th, 14th, 15th and 19th amendments.

The bottom line regarding gay marriage is that it is more lucrative to not sanction the union because of the tax benefits that marriage enjoys. There is the perception that gays enjoy higher incomes than heteros because they tend not to have children as much. To lose the money that the government gains by taxing each separately is not something they are prepared to do.

I really can't see that there would be any difference in laws for gays as for straights, except for the marriage and adoption question which is just silly. When this country (and many other countries in the world) stops trying to cut off its nose to spite its face (not just on this issue but a slew of thers) everyone will be better off in the long run.

We are due for some really dark times I truly think so because the history of the world would not be the history of the world withou them and we just aren't going to survive if ...

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Gwion
Think many Catholics might think twice about having their boys taught by gay Priests?


*dryly* Way to change the subject and avoid the challenge to your "it's natural" comment.

[Gwion]

It takes a sperm and an egg to reproduce. Male and Female. That's nature. No word games any spin doctor can imagine will ever change that fact. Put all the gays on one island, and all the lesbians on another, and see how many generations they last.

As for gay priests, the term is an oxymoron. How can a man who is sworn to celibacy profess any kind of sexual preferance, hetero, homo or otherwise? Even the poor old, frail POPE has spoken out against the molestations.

[Alaiyo]

Originally posted by Gwion
It takes a sperm and an egg to reproduce. Male and Female. That's nature. No word games any spin doctor can imagine will ever change that fact. Put all the gays on one island, and all the lesbians on another, and see how many generations they last.


That's assuming that you could locate ALL of the gay men and ALL of the lesbian women and that there would be no immigration to either one of the islands by anyone else.

No one is disputing the basic biological fact that it takes an egg and a sperm to reproduce. You can't have one without the other (although had I continued studying to be a geneticist...)

Even the late and something of a twisted feminist Madmae Mao said that "Man's contribution to the existence of the world is one drop of sperm."

But as had been said ad naseum throught the 90s and currently, anyone can be a sperm or egg donor. It takes a responsible, loving adult to be a parent, keywords being responsible and loving.
As had also been said, there are bad gay, straight, bi, lesbian, and transgendered parents and there are good parents from all of those categories.

While people debate whether what two people do in the privacy of their bedrooms is moral or not, 5% of the children in the US are in foster care. The reality is that they are looking for ANYONE to love them. The tragedy is that many of them will not have a connection with a family or anyone and once they turn 18, it's "see ya wouldn't want to be ya."

Yes, there are many people who want to adopt children and that are waiting and yes social services don't make it easy. However, many want small healthy children, prefereable babies and usually Caucasian but people have been more flexible in recent years. If you fall outside of that, you will likely not be adopted.

Foster care is a crap shoot in many states. I am often suprised at how easy it is in some places to be a foster parent than it is to become an adoptive parent. I am also shocked at how some of the kids are living and it is no wonder that they are as they are because they thought that they were going some place better, when some times the situation is worse.

As the story in Florida illustrates, for some foster families, they have been together for fo long that adoption is the only legal thing that doesn't define them as a family. That story is particulatly angering to me because had the child they want to take out of the home not gotten better, he would have been left alone. This child got better because he was NURTURED by two men who wanted to be responsible, loving adult parents to a child who had none.

What message are they sending? If you are a sickly broken child, you're good enough for gays and single parents to take care of but if you are not then you get thrown into the adoption pool where you may or may not be adopted and if you are 18 and still in the system, that's it?

I thought one of the things that came out of the 80s and 90s was that just like there are many definitions of womanhood, there are many definitions of manhood--all valid. Whether you adopt or take care of your biological children, as long as you are a responsible and loving adult your children will have the best chance of being good and contributing members of the society. This is whether Heather has two mommies or two daddies or one of each.

[Alaiyo]

Originally posted by Azure
In practice, the ideal nuclear family has really been a post WWII reality for most people. My grandparents all came from extended farm families. The post-war boom changed all of that.
edited for a silly spelling error

I would even go as far as saying that depending on where your "roots" are at, many people still live in an extended family reality even in the present. I believe that the media contributed largely to the nuclear idea as had the push to have people move either to the suburbs in one family housing or to the "clean and efficient" city where historically maintaining an extended family has always been difficult.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Gwion:
It takes a sperm and an egg to reproduce. Male and Female. That's nature. No word games any spin doctor can imagine will ever change that fact. Put all the gays on one island, and all the lesbians on another, and see how many generations they last.
I don't think the ability to produce a child is relevant to one's ability to raise a child, though. As has already been pointed out (and beaten to death), a lot of heterosexual couples can reproduce but cannot take adequate care of their offspring. A lot of single parents can take adequate care of their offspring--I'm a living example of this; so the thought that a second adult of the same gender makes for two inadequate parents simply doesn't add up.


As for gay priests, the term is an oxymoron. How can a man who is sworn to celibacy profess any kind of sexual preferance, hetero, homo or otherwise?
If the term is an oxymoron, why did you use it in the first place?

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Alaiyo:
I would even go as far as saying that depending on where your "roots" are at, many people still live in an extended family reality even in the present.
[Tangential Topic]
I would imagine this is especially true outside the United States and Western Europe, where most family members aren't rich enough to live on their own in the first place.

[Caelin]

I'm straight, and support equal rights (including adoption/various methods of having a child via IVF, sperm donors, surrogates etc) for everyone.

I don't really care who someone else is sleeping with, the only time when I would care is if they were having sex in the street. But that goes for everyone :)

I also agree that sexuality is not 100% straight or 100% gay in the majority of people, but slides around depending on age, and other factors. I'm mostly straight, but I have seen the odd girl (I'm female, btw) who I'm attracted to. I'd not do anything about it, because I reckon I'm about 98% straight, but still... and I don't know about anyone else, but like other girls I knew, when I was at school I had 'crushes' on other girls, and never thought anything of it. I gather thats quite normal, particularly if, like me, you went to a single-sex school.

Just thoughts...

[Alaiyo]

The way that people are so airbrushed and retouched and we are blasted with so much with such images I am not surprised that we aren't all bisexual in one way or another.

I think I wonder just when heterosexuality became the only acceptable standard. We know that when many Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions began to spread, religions and/or paths that were polytheistic and/or had strong female deities and roles began to disappear and historically we can kinda pinpoint it, if not name the exact date.

*Goes back to:
A) work and
B) think outrageous and esoteric thoughts that may lead her to research them at the library*

[Illuminatus]

I'm not convinced.

True, a lot of gay people grew up in normal, hetero households. But we're not talking about these people. The above statement is true, but that does not mean it's converse (If you grew up in a hetero household you're probably gay) is not.

We're talking about children who are growing up in homosexual households. Will they, themselves, be more predisposed to being homosexuals themselves?

Well, there's no data or statistics to answer that question. Only recently have same-sex couples been allowed to adopt. It'll be 20 years before these children grow up to an age where their sexual preferences can be accurately measured and analyzed. Of course, even that is suspect, because a lot of people lie about their sexual orientation, to stay in the closet. This uncertainty factor is the source of that terrible statistic, that 10% of everyone is gay, they just won't tell you because of some inflated "closet factor" bull.

In the absence of numbers or studies, we have to take a guess. Modern psychology is the best estimation for this. Psychologists have traced a few of the "red flags" that appear in a person's childhood which are more likely to be found in homosexuals than in heterosexuals - the lack of a strong father in a daughter's life, for one. With no father to provide feelings of safety, security, and lay down appropriate boundaries for a child, they are more likely to grow up confused. The same is true in the reverse case - male children often have special relationships with their mother, like in the case of the famous Oedipal complex.

One thing that is true in ALL cases, however, is that children learn what is normal from the behavior of those around them, and they always attempt to emulate such behavior.

So, while I would hesitate about saying anything about male or female children being raised by two men, or two women raising a boy, I will comment that a girl raised by two women (with no father figure), has a greater chance of growing up with bisexual or lesbian tendancies, than if she had a father. I'm not saying whether this should be considered a good thing or not (because if I said that I'd be lynched), only that it's true.

- Illuminatus!

[Azure]

You know, I work in theatre, where people are far more open about their sexuality than the public at large in my experience. And given that I have a large circle of openly gay friends, I'd have to say that more of them came from two-parent nuclear families and strong Judeo-Christian tradition than most of my straight friends. My ex's gay Dad raised three straight boys and a straight daughter.

And there actually have been major studies in Great Britain and the European Union that underscored the fact that there was no difference between children raised in gay and straight households. And the psychological theory that homosexuality is a mental disorder went out about the same time as Segregation.

And on that note, I don't know a single gay person who doesn't believe that he or she was born that way. And most point out that few would chose to be part of a minority that is so scorned if they felt they had the option of a "normal" life. And I know quite a few.

[Alaiyo]

Originally posted by Illuminatus

Psychologists have traced a few of the "red flags" that appear in a person's childhood which are more likely to be found in homosexuals than in heterosexuals - the lack of a strong father in a daughter's life, for one. With no father to provide feelings of safety, security, and lay down appropriate boundaries for a child, they are more likely to grow up confused. The same is true in the reverse case - male children often have special relationships with their mother, like in the case of the famous Oedipal complex.


I thought that providing safety, security and setting boundaries in addition to providing love was the primary function of ANY parent regardless of gender. Also while psychologists are not wholly evil, I tend to take some of the things that they support especially when they fly in the face of common sense with a lot of salt. It wasn't that long ago that psychology declared homosexuality and bisexuality to be mental disorders. Not to mention the countless years where others such as women and minorities were were victimized and held back due the musings of certain psychologists whose findings more often than not supported their world order.



So, while I would hesitate about saying anything about male or female children being raised by two men, or two women raising a boy, I will comment that a girl raised by two women (with no father figure), has a greater chance of growing up with bisexual or lesbian tendancies, than if she had a father.
- Illuminatus!

Actually not so true, because oddly enough it would fly in the face of so called studies that state that girls engage in more intercourse and become pregnant because of the lack of a positive male in their life. And also is the result of having a positive female in a boy's life then is that the greater chance is he will "grow up" gay or bisexual?

And so what if the child grows up to "become" homosexual, if in fact that were such a case. It's not a negative and no one should think that it is.

I'm not saying that anyone in the thread has said that it was, it's just a declarative statement.

[GoddessViviane]

Hi. I voted that I'm straight, and i believe that there should be equal rights for everyone. What makes them different? I dont understand why they should be discriminated against?! Should blacks have differences then us?! NO!

PEOPLE ARE THE SAME NO MATTER RACE, COLOUR, OR SEXUAL PREFERENCE! it doesnt matter! sex preference is a personal business. I think gay/lesbian marriage should be legalized in all states.
anyone dissagree? tell me!

~Me

[StormChaser]

its still goin on. heh.

gotta love controversy.

I also wanted to say a few things:

I had a strong father figure growing up, mother and father both strong. Neither homosexual at all. Funny enough I am the only *so far* bisexual person on my mothers side of the family. I have known I was bisexual my entire existance, as long as i've understood attraction to others.. i have been entranced by both. No fad. No Fluff. Just truth.

When i found my biological father, i learned that my uncle is very gay, but has been his entire life, neither of my grandparents taught it or praised it, while they accept it, it doesn't thrill them. My fathers parents have been married 45 years, have 4 children, 3 boys and a girl. All their children had equal father and mother and are straight except for one boy. Doesn't that go against some of those studies?

Another instance, i have two friends both raised in lesbian familys. Each has two moms, and both girls are straight.

I'd just like to throw that info out there for all the "scientific" types "COUNTNG" on science providing the answer.

Part of my religious and philosophical view points is the belief that there is far more out there than we can ever hope to understand and control. We try to define and categorize to make the world simpler to avoid having our minds explode (not necesarily literally). Consider sometimes that maybe just maye.. there isn't a solid concrete reason for everything, and all you have to do is choose to fight that, or accept it.

[StormChaser]

determining how much of the populous is gay is about as easy as getting teenage girls to admit to masturbation..
you'll never know who's really doing what acurately, the information is too private and too taboo for a lot of people to feel comfortable confessing.. even to a completely anonymous survey.

~Sarah

[Saphra]

I'm straight, but I have a lot of gay friends, that I wouldn't trade for the world. But a lot of my other friends, are really terrified of the fact that I bring these guys around them. Like it's going to rub off or something, or that one of my gay friends is going to check out one of my straight friends.... goddess that p*sses me off.

[Aine of the Fae]

I'm bi and in and open marriage (my husband is bi as well.) I think that there should be equal rights for all. No special treatment because your straight or gay or whatever. But, that also means no limitations because your gay or straight or whatever. I just happened to fall in love with a man and marry him. If I had fallen in love with a woman and wanted to marry her, I would have liked to have been able to without having to move to Hawaii to do so.

[adament]

i just don't see what the problem is...i mean WHO CARES about what anyone does on their own time???....if gay folks wanna get married, so what?!....they can get divorced and give away 1/2 of their crap just like i did!...

this world is pretty sucky and if 2 (or 3!) people can find ANY happiness, why should anyone stand in their way???

adament

[LoveShard]

Well, I voted, for equal rights......but theres somehting i wanted to touch on...

"So, while I would hesitate about saying anything about male or female children being raised by two men, or two women raising a boy, I will comment that a girl raised by two women (with no father figure), has a greater chance of growing up with bisexual or lesbian tendancies, than if she had a father. " This point made earlier by Illuminous(sorry is thats sepflled wrong)

I have a few things to ask about that.....firstly, there are two general reasons one could grow up gay, the oh so simple 'monkey see, monkey do' ideal, and then theres the fact that they may be Bi or Gay/Lesbian because they grew up in a more open minded household.

Secondly, You say that with gay/lesbian parents are more likley to raise a Bi or Gay/Lesbian child, ....and why is this a bad thing? if it's bad because it's shaping or removing someone's free will to be who they are... Isnt this just as likley for a Bi or Gay/Lesbian child to 'grow up strait' because thats the household they live in?

[FelixFire]

I'm straight, and voted for equal rights. I am a huge supporter of gay rights, and tend to get mistaken for a lesbian because I am so outspoken about it. (Which makes me giggle when someone tries to use it as an insult, LOL)

Gwion - you like to talk about nature, and seem to have concluded that since gays and lesbians can't reproduce "naturally", they shouldn't adopt and somehow lack what it takes to be parents. Am I right there?

Lemme ask you something, then. Have you ever gone to the doctor? Ever gotten an immunization shot? Any surgery? How about the dentist? Ever gotten your teeth cleaned?

If you can't avoid disease "naturally", you shouldn't go get any shots. If you can't survive appendicitis "naturally", you shouldn't go in for surgery. If your teeth don't stay healthy "naturally", you shouldn't get them cleaned or filled.

Doesn't make much sense, does it?

I say, unless you're living "naturally" yourself (as in, no modern housing, clothing, medicine, transportation or other technologies - just you and the dirt and trees and whatever you can make out of them), you really can't dun one technology as unnatural (and therefore undesirable). And if you do live "naturally", you can expect to live maybe 20-30 years, like our ancestors did when they lived "naturally".

I disagree with you, obviously. I say mankind's technologies ARE natural to our species. The same technologies that let us live into our 70's, 80's and beyond, the same technologies that let us keep our teeth and survive heart attacks and ruptured appendixes, the same technologies we use to fashion eyeglasses and reading lamps and automobiles, the same technologies we use to impregnate those that can't concieve other ways...those things are natural to human beings.

I think your comment about "energy" coming from mixed-sex parents is either complete BS, or perhaps just overly idealistic (as opposed to realistic). My parents are straight, and the sort of "energy" coming from them was usually full of strife and anger. I'd have been much better off being raised by a same-sex couple that actually loved eachother.

In a nutshell, to clearly state my own opinions, I think someone's romantic or sexual attractants have little-to-nothing to do with their ability to raise a child. Most important are issues such as responsibility, stability, ability to express and feel loving emotions, and of course, the desire to have kids in the first place. And I suppose financial ability to do so is in there too. I'd say someone's religious preference is more important than their sexual preference - if someone is part of a faith that refuses medical help (for example) I'd say that's a much bigger problem than if the parents happen to be called "Mom" and "Mommy".

[Aine of the Fae]

Saying that a gay couple shouldn't be able to adopt because they can't have children 'naturally' is the same thing as saying an infertile straight couple can't adopt. That's a sad statement. I've known many, many gay parents who were better at it than a several straight parents that I've met. Who cares if the parents are gay or straight as long as the child has food, clothing, shelter, is not abused, is provided opportunities for education and advancement and is generally happy.

[StormChaser]

*laughs* Well I know several couples who've not had to worry about the whole adoption thing.. they did it "naturally" lesbians had male friends willing to supply them with what they needed naturally.

I have a gay friend who lives with two lesbians and they communally raise the children. WHo by the way.. are mensa members and doing great in school.. probably will be doctors or some such thing.. talk about some great genetics.. all from.. oh oh yes.. a gay man and lesbian woman.

Those genes could have gone to waste.. personally i look forward to seeing what those kids will do!

~Sarah

[Isis]

MM all,

I'm bi and I don't know which way I lean the most, I suppose it depends on the way the wind is blowing, LOL. I'm sure the Xian right would love that.

I believe there should be equal rights for all people.......regardless of what their beliefs and preferences. I remember working with two Klansmen(yes, KKK) and I was the only one who thought that they actually had the right to work and make a living for their families. I'm a black female, and most of my coworkers at the time were white.......so I'm all about equal rights and freedom of speech and all that other good shit!


I find that gays and lesbians are more discriminatory toward bisexuals than straight people. It's funny cause its like, many times they seem to feel that we're afraid to make a diffinitive choice. I always say I have.........I choose both!


Isis

[Aine of the Fae]

I've gotten that feeling about gays and lesbians being more critical of bisexuals than straight people are. At a bar (a gay bar) the other day, I was in a contest (I won't say what kind...) and was asked if I was straight/gay/bi or what. I said bi and he said "oh, you can't make up your mind." Yes, I can make up my mind. I think men and women are equally beautiful and can pleasure me in different ways. :)

[StormChaser]

Originally posted by Isis


I find that gays and lesbians are more discriminatory toward bisexuals than straight people. It's funny cause its like, many times they seem to feel that we're afraid to make a diffinitive choice. I always say I have.........I choose both!


Isis [/B]

I was the VP of the Gay-Bi-Les-Trans group at college and I found this to be very true at least of Lesbians opinons of Bi's. I was told out right by one of the girls there that I must not be able to maintain a monogomous relationship etc etc.

Regardless of the fact that i AM polyamourous that has NOTHING to do with my being bisexual. The one does not affect the other. I have had monogomous relationships and been quite content that way, without needing a partner of opposite gender of my partner to 'complete' me. I highly resent being thought of as a 'try' sexual.

I look for people to love and capable of loveing me back, people who are as beautiful in personality as they are in body. If someone fits my criterion for a partner gender does not matter. I figure myself to be more of an 'equal oppertunity lender'. I am capable of a relationship with both male, female *and i'm sure trans too* providing that everything else is in order. Not just sexually attracted to them or willing to have sex with them but able to have a lengthy functioning relationship.

~Sarah

[MzNeko]

Well, I'd have to go with "straight" for 99% of the time - though if Gillian Anderson from the X-Files showed up on my doorstep saying that she simply must have me, I'd be willing to give the other side a whirl (I seem to be drawn to beautiful redheads... :p )

I'm all for equal rights. I have a hard time understanding why so many people in society at large seem to be DEEPLY concerned about who other people are boinking.

[Mystsong]

I'm straight and all about equal rights... But I also have to agree with Storm and Isis... I have a lot of gay or bi friends... and the ones who are gay/lesbian will say things to me about my bi friends like "what? they can't make up their mind?" or "they just don't want to admit that they're really gay/lesbian" It REALLY bothers me!

I actually dated a guy once who was bi... Anyone who knew asked how I could stand it... I looked at them like they had three heads for asking me such a stupid question! It actually was more fun sometimes because I knew I could say that a guy looked sexy/hot/whatever, and he would agree or disagree, not get mad at me and insecure....

I think people are just too afraid of the unknown in some situations... or afraid of themselves... I have the feeling that if an unpassable non-straight opportunity presented itself, a lot more people would take it than would pass it up... But that's just my oppinion...

*raises an eyebrow at herself, blushes, and steps off the soapbox she suddenly finds herself on*

[Zitan]

I'm straight, but my Hine's brother is very gay. He won silver at the Gay Games recently, he is a real dude ;)

I have no problems with anyone, no matter what their sexual preference is or their gender or race. It is their actions that are important, not who they enjoying loving :loveduv: This includes bis, we are all too tied up in gender. Everyone has both "masucline" and "femine" qualities within us. Even these words have associates they I don't want to express, so lets go with yin and yang ;) Let's not get tired up with gender and release ourselves and our bodies. And that especially goes for men. There is so much discrimination against gay people here, and this comes from men more than it does woman. My <christian> friend said that being Gay was like being an Alcholic. :scream: I got him to take that back pretty quickly alright, lol :rotfl:

Btw seasons greetings 2 u all :wave:

[Jazzmine]

I'm straight and happily married. But I do agree with equal rights for everyone.

[SuperHeroGirl]

Bi...I HATE whne people say hate it when people say that homosexuality is wrong! ugh ugh ugh. I'm a member of my schools Gay/Straight aliance and i LOVE it, its really helped me accept who I am, i kwno that its not wrong.

Love can never be wrong!

[One Eyed]

I am not going to say much because it seems I am the only one with an angsty view...but without hate.

[WynterWynd]

Totally straight and totally dont care who is attracted to who..........as long as they make each other happy!!!:D

[SuperHeroGirl]

wha do you mean one eyed?? e want differant opinions!

[One Eyed]

Originally posted by SuperHeroGirl
wha do you mean one eyed?? e want differant opinions!

Ofcourse you do not want 'differant' opinions - I don't want to start arguing but I am not 'politically correct' and 'current' when it comes to the issue of homosexuality or bisexuality or any other term of that sort...let's leave it at that...

[Semele]

Originally posted by One Eyed
Ofcourse you do not want 'differant' opinions - I don't want to start arguing but I am not 'politically correct' and 'current' when it comes to the issue of homosexuality or bisexuality or any other term of that sort...let's leave it at that...

The easiest way to avoid giving your opinion if you feel it would cause problems is to......not post saying you aren't giving it! Then you can "leave it at that."

[WynterWynd]

just makes other curiouser about your opinion

[One Eyed]

I know I made a mistake hehe I just wanted to point out that there is someone who feels indifferent to acceptance that's all - not going to get into details because I had enough arguments about this issue from old teachers etc etc and people I meet on a regular basis so lets leave it at that hehe
sorry if I caused any confusion.

[Mithrea]

Originally posted by VroomBroom
just makes other curiouser about your opinion

I'm not curious at all. I think it's clear.

And honestly One Eyed, I'm not really buying this innocent "sorry I didn't mean to" act anymore. I've seen you do that in too many threads. I think you knew exactly what the effect of your post would be here. By posting the way you did, you got to say, "I'm a bigot" without coming right out and saying it.

I wonder why? If you are going to have an opinion on the subject, then put it out there so we can debate.

[flar7]

Free opinion, and its yours to make. Lets move on, and not start
arguing. I will cut it short quick.

[One Eyed]

Originally posted by Mithrea
I'm not curious at all. I think it's clear.

And honestly One Eyed, I'm not really buying this innocent "sorry I didn't mean to" act anymore. I've seen you do that in too many threads. I think you knew exactly what the effect of your post would be here. By posting the way you did, you got to say, "I'm a bigot" without coming right out and saying it.

I wonder why? If you are going to have an opinion on the subject, then put it out there so we can debate.

Well I am glad to know someone has less life then me and feels they need to spy on the threads I attend and what I say in them in order to critique...anyways I said it very shortly as to the point that I do not agree with the 'practice' what more do you want me to say?

I have heard every reason why I should accept it in life outside the net - and there is no reason to hear why I should because none of them yet have been good enough or justified by anything other then 'it's o.k to be human'.

I do have an opinion on the subject and quite a big one but to put it out would be suicide when 99% of the board members that responded are 'pro-homosexual' - and there is nothing to debate when it comes to this issue - I believe mine - you believe yours - I just simply wanted to say 'hi I am here and I do not agree'
I don't want to go on insulting people or critizing them - in my life I have met a few gay people - from my former boss to my neighbours to going to a bar this Boxing day and being picked up by a 'gentleman' while a friend was in the bathroom - ...I just wanted to say - NOT everybody swallows the spoon that is fed -

This will be my last reply on this post because as you made clear - you don't even want to hear my opinion, you came in speaking of 'other' threads...

[MammaStar]

Originally posted by One Eyed
Well I am glad to know someone has less life then me and feels they need to spy on the threads I attend and what I say in them in order to critique...anyways I said it very shortly as to the point that I do not agree with the 'practice' what more do you want me to say?



I believe being an active member of the board, as Mithrea is, is not being a spy. It's being involved in the community.

IMO, it's okay that you think differently, but don't just come out and say "I'm here, I don't agree". It's okay to state WHY you don't agree. That's what Mithrea is trying to point out. Don't just say something, then run & hide. People post about subjects like these because they have an opinion. Some are stronger than others, BOTH SIDES. One of the purposes of MW is to debate subjects like this. DEBATE, however, not flame each other. ;)

If you can't handle the heat generated by your opinion, popular or un-popular, then be polite enough to keep quiet. There are threads here on MW because of what I feel, I don't respond to. Doesn't mean that I don't have an opinion, just means I choose to stay out of the conversation. Almost like a "post responsibly" type of thing.

[One Eyed]

LdyStarlite - It is not that I am running and hiding or afraid to say my opinion it is just when 99% of the replies are PRO and then you get one negative - I do not want this thread or my responses turning into mini novels. If someone wants to talk about issues of 'homosexuality' and 'radical' opinions that I may hold - I am more then o.k to sit down with someone with a glass of Guiness and talk it out - I have a friend which writes for Gay magazines even though he is not gay but he keeps trying to explain to me about how o.k it is and how I am so back in times with my ideals when it comes to a few issues in this life and that is o.k - he is also not flaming me, not yelling, not trying to prove a point which can not be proved anyways (at least not in my head) he respects the fact that i do not go with the Canadian flow and march down Pride day as if it was some national holiday or something and I respect his views - when in company of homosexuals I also do not bash them or anything I just dont want to hear anything about their lifestyle (which from my experience is not avoidable since the ones I met will tie back their sexuality to everything from the music they listen to - to food they eat )

So I am not going to argue here because I know I will be shown no respect for my views and even more so I will not hear anything that I haven't heard when it comes to this issue - I read every single reply on here and there is a few things I agree with what has been said but I have heard it all before.

[MammaStar]

Again, then why bother posting. That is the point trying to be made. You have a different opinion and yet don't want to talk about. That's FINE. Really. But then don't post AT ALL. Like I said, I have opinion's about certain subjects. Some of them, I KNOW will turn into this huge long debate and I keep my mouth shut. Because really, what's the point. Just like this. This post really, is pointless. It's not like some lighting bolt is going to flash down upon you and you say 'Oh, I see what you're saying!" and the birdies sing. :lol:

You don't agree. No problem. If everyone agreed on everything, then the world would be pretty boring. But you don't have to post if you don't want to discuss it on the boards. THAT is the point trying to be made.

[One Eyed]

Well I didn't post much - if you read my first post - I made a very short replied that I voted and it wasn't a 'popular' view - but I do see what you are saying...

In the end the POLL gave no space to exactly anwser - maybe I should have done just that...anyways
I am off Have a Happy new Years.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Illuminatus doesn't agree that it is normal and he wasn't flamed. Perhaps it is how things are phrased that causes it. When someone phrases things in a way that makes others feel they are being attacked they tend to do so. Sometimes when someone is used to being attacked they will start out their comments in a defensive manner causing the problems you are describing. The problem may not be there that you think there is though I have seen on occasion the members attack another for differing views it is not a common occurance. I would suggest you look at your posts again and see if the way you said things may be the cause of the anamosity not the topic.

[Semele]

Originally posted by One Eyed
So I am not going to argue here because I know I will be shown no respect for my views and even more so I will not hear anything that I haven't heard when it comes to this issue - I read every single reply on here and there is a few things I agree with what has been said but I have heard it all before.

Yes, you will be shown respect...at least the same amount you are giving. That is the one rule of the community. Sometimes we all get irritated and say/type things that we later regret and we can often apologize and make things right again....but not on a daily basis. That wears thin real fast. Yes, that was a slap on the wrist warning.

Also the part about how you have heard it all before, my friend, you would be suprised. I have thought that many times about many subjects and have found myself reading other's ideas and opinions with an open mind and found I have gained something from doing so. At times it has even changed my views slightly. Was it the person with the oppossing views who changed me? Not at all. It was just time in my life for me to open up to other possibilities. We never realise how closeminded we are until we open up just a little beyond our comfort zone.

[MistOfTheSea86]

And very happy to be so, I put that quite clearly in this thread I am sure a few times.

However, I do not understand why people feel the need to make issues so much more complicated then they already are. Illuminatus had his point and I had debated with him on this subject before in a very mature manner. What Yvonne said is right, it is all how you phrase it.

Ill put that he didn't "Agree" and yet at the same time he showed no animosity. I feel that the confusion in your post one eyed is the fact that you keep pn saying you have such a radical opinion on the subject without sharing what that radical opinion may be.

I do know that I said not to complicate things more but, when you peak a communities curiosity and refuse to share the information, you must expect some frustration.

And about the other members "Flaming" you. Illuminatus has had MANY controversial views but you don't see everyone jumping on his back. We respect his opinion as he respects ours.

So you are either 1.) Willing to share so you do or 2.) Unwilling to compromise, in which case you should really let this debate be and move on.

[Alaiyo]

I guess to me, title of this thread could be inflammatory.
"Gay vs. Straight" implies that one is better than the other when neither is. And it excludes bisexuality and transgendered people.

Although, those are exclusive unto themselves and they have suffered from being lopped into the the same basket as homosexuality.

[adayinmylife]

Hi I am a new member to this community but am not new to the gay life. I am 36 and have been "out" since I was 17. I have faced the best and worst oppinions on this. We all deserve equal rights as americans. And as for being parrents.........that takes love of all kinds.
Now as far as showing our gay pride......why not? Pride comes in all forms.......such as putting a Nascar or baseball sticker on your car......that is sport pride. ........personalized plates...is personal pride. Wearing a football sweatshirt is sport pride. SO .. IF we want to show our pride with stickers, shirts and rainbows....why not???????I am the youngest of 10 and the only one that is gay.....but my family accepts me and loves me just the same as the other 9. (maybe a little more cause I'm the baby)haha
My Mom had to raise us by herself and she did an awsome job. Like I said in the beginning.........parrenting takes love.
being a lesbian is something that I am very proud of and I show my pride. Not because I think I am better then anyone else but because I am proud of who I am.
predjidice is ignorance. People are affraid of what they don't know or understand.

[earthcat]

Merry Meet, adayinmylife, and very welcome you are!:heartthro

(ok folks, I give.... Say hello to my cousin....:p)

I knew adayinmylife well before she came out, (like, diaper-stage sorry, J... ) and when she did, the extended family was a bit shocked, overall. It was mostly the older generation that had difficulty with it, but as she said, her Mom accepted her immediately. Those in our generation said, "Good for her!", and continued to love her as she is. Nowadays, there's maybe one or two that don't fully accept her, and I, for one, feel that that is their problem. She's been through a lot to get where she is now, and if she finds happiness with someone, regardless of gender, well then, I'm happy for her. If there are children involved, I say "Good!" because I know how much love she has to give. And she has every right to be proud of herself.

[adayinmylife]

Thank you earthcat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your acceptance and love is very important to me. I wish everyone could feel the kind of love that our family has. Pride is a great thing in every way. We hold our heads up nomatter how bad life gets.
This community is GREAT and seems to be very accepting of all walks of life. thank you for turning me onto it. We realy need to fix the chatroom though lol.

[earthcat]

You're very welcome, Sweet Cousin....:heartthro
And I'm glad you like it here....
(I knew you would!;) )

[MoonBear]

I am gay and new here :) <waves>

The title of the this thread intrigued me. I was envisioning a steel cage match to the death between the queers & breeders...Gays VS Straights! LOL

Nice to meet you all. Great community here !

[SuperHeroGirl]

Does anyone here belong to their school/community GSA ( Gay Straight Alliance? ) If so...do you know what the Day of Silence (http://www.dayofsilence.org/) is?

Anyone that is interested or cares should try and get your school ro participate in this! It's really really great. We did this in my school last year and oner 150 students nd teachers participated. If you dont ahve a GSA at your school, tr and start one! If you ahve any questions about this or how it went t my school last year, feel free to contact me in ANY way!

[Azure]

When I was in grad school a couple of years ago, I shared a house with a gay man, a straight man, another straight girl, and a lesbian. What did I learn from three years of constant association with these people and they with me?

Pretty much that people are just people and that stressing over someone's different sexuality is incredibly silly - we all went through the same things: Good and bad relationships, crushes, flirting, unrequited attractions, the odd one night stand, the agonizing over waiting for someone we liked to call, the Sunday morning post-date gossip. There wasn't much difference - we had more tension over religion (one Pagan, one Episcopalian with Pagan leanings, one Catholic, one Atheist, one Quaker) than we ever did over the sexuality issue.

When you live with people, day in and day out, as close friends rather than distant acquaintances you often find that what you thought were differences aren't so much. Who we love defines only one part of us, but love itself is pretty much the same emotionally. And everyone I am close to, gay, straight, bi, whatever, seems to pretty much want the same things deep down - someone with whom they can share a life. And we all go through the stress that results from the great life quest to find that.

Two years after, we've scattered. The lesbian roomie found a nice woman and settled down. She is very content in her life, and leads her local Quaker meeting. I've met a guy who just might be worth keeping ;). The other three are still out there looking. But I know the seach goes on, as it does for the rest of our collection of friends from theatre school, of whatever sexuality.

[SagaDraco]

"I shared a house with a gay man, a straight man, another straight girl, and a lesbian

one Pagan, one Episcopalian with Pagan leanings, one Catholic, one Atheist, one Quaker"

Sure you weren't on The Real World?

[Azure]

Heh! It felt that way sometimes. Except that we all liked each other.

[Dawn]

As a bisexual female, I am very adamant that people are people first and foremost. It matters not what they do in their bedroom, or with whom they do it.
Gay/Bi/Lesbians should be allowed and given the chance to be parents without any more hassle that straight people have. Same sex marriages should be recognised everywhere as legal and binding.
And I think the gov't needs to get their noses out of our bedrooms!!

Sorry if I seem huffy...this is just a sore spot with me..lol

Dawn

[Alaiyo]

Speaking of government being in the bedrooms...aren't vibrators still illegal in Aladambama?

[WitchJezebel]

Yup, I think they are still illegal. What's next, house to house searches? Uhmmmm, no that's a BACK massager, really.....

[Blueowl]

I am straight, and feel everyone should have equal rights...government should keep their noses out of the bedroom! No doubt! but then again, some things the government shouldn't be involved in but they are..but that is something for another thread lol...when my hubby was filling out paperwork for assistance with school, we were blown away at some of the money you could get if you had aparent that was gay, or transsexual...we couldn't believe it! No one deserves special treatment unless they are handicapped and can't fend for themselves...not because of sexual orientation...whatever happened to accepting responsibilty for who you are and going with that? Oh! That's right, the government has set up so we can have amillion excuses why we don't have to do something....

[IsisErin]

I'm confused - probably bi although I have a lovely boyfriend, and I'm for equal rights as well... we're all people, right?

[AmbivalentMirage]

I'm straight, but definitely believe in equal rights for all sexual preferences. :) I think sexuality is a flexible thing for most people. Maybe not on the emotional side, but definitely the physical. I cannot see myself falling in love with another guy, but that doesn't mean I'd never "experiment" with one. Ahem... *wanders off*

[~ Monk ~]

I'm a straight male, and I have no desire to have a sexual experience with another male. I could care less what other people do sexually. The only time I ever get a feeling about it is when I encounter someone who feels a need to flaunt their sexuality. So while I may see a guy dressed up as a condom and going waay over the top in a gay pride parade and think, "What a jackass!", I would think the same thing about a guy who comes into work and brags about bagging three chicks in one night. The only person I want to see or hear flaunt their sexuality is my girlfriend. ;)

I believe that's it's very likely we all have the capacity to be bisexual, and ultimately it's a combination of genetics, things we're taught and environments we're brought up in that do the final "shaping" of our sexual preferences. Some of us experience one side of things, some of us the other side, some of us both. And of course, don't forget those who experience none!

Sexuality in general is just not a black and white thing. As with many things, a lot of folks just don't want to see gray areas.

I'll shut up now..:D

[dreamweaver]

At my age it don't matter much anymore but I do believe in equal rights

[Faolan]

I'm completely Bi, though I do lean towards straight most of the time, so I guess you could call me bi-curious, and I believe in equal rights for all. I've had a crush on my best friend Patti since I met her, and I'm dating another girl right now. I told my mom about it because I wanted to be completely open with her and she tells me it freaks her out, which naturally lowers my self-esteem more then it should. I wish she could understand that this is how I am, I can't help the fact that I'm attracted to other women, that I think they're beautiful and wouldn't mind being curled up with one on a couch, or telling one that I love them. I wish I could talk to her about it sometimes but I'm afraid to bring it up because I don't know how to argue with her about the subject, I can't tell her -why- I feel this way, just that I know I do, and that's not enough for her.
At the same time my two friends are always joking around, pinching and fooling around with each other, yet since they know I'm bi they leave me out of it cause they're afraid it might actually mean something if I join in.

As for the "unnatural" subject, even Alexander the Great had a persian "boy-toy" ^ ^ and I happen to think that two guys together are just sexy :D

[Psyche Ague]

I'm sorry you don't have the support you need, Faolan. I believe that acceptance is of utmost importance in all of our lives, especially when the acceptance needed deals with a "taboo" and "touchy" subject like sexuality and sexual orientation. *hugs* The people who truly love you will accept and understand you, even if it makes them a little uncomfortable. You just have to be understanding, too. It's our culture.

If you ever need to talk to a fellow bi female, shoot me a PM. I'm a great resource for support. :)

[adayinmylife]

I have a very big family and am the youngest. I have been "out" since I was 17 and am 36 now!! I hate to hear that people are still haveing a problem with this shit!!!! Damn we are all human and iys all about love!!!! If more people would STAND UP for who they are then the acceptance would get easier. I came "out" back when "bashing" was "in" and it wasnt easy but I'm so glad i didnt hide in a closet. I have helped to pave the way for all the future Gays and bis. So please STAND UP for who you are and be PROUD!!!!!!!! We should all have the same rights and the more people we have to "fight " for them the faster we'll get em. Anyone that wants to pm me about this is more then welcome. I will be glad to help in any way. I've been there and done that, so ask me anything. It's all good. Feel free to pm me.

[IsisErin]

Originally posted by Alaiyo
Speaking of government being in the bedrooms...aren't vibrators still illegal in Aladambama?

Sorry, I just read this.... Why? Someone had to write that law, I wonder what the motivation was behind it? Apparently, they used to be used as a medical treatment for 'hysteria' and other such conditions.

[Phoenix Blue]

I think the Circuit Court of Appeals struck down that law recently as unconstitutional. :) I could be wrong, though.

[Faolan]

Thanks Psyche ^^ I really appreciate all the support I can get.

As for the laws, I think I read somewhere that it was illegal in Texas to use oral sex on males, and gay/lesbian sex was also illegal. Not that they enforce the rules but I think that's what I heard, and I think vibrators are also illegal in Texas, dunno why. Maybe because they're so easy for minors to get to now with the internet? But then you'd have to ban porn and every other sexual toy so that can't be it.

[Psyche Ague]

Those sex laws are probably just remnants of the old, puritanical way of thinking. Hm...I don't know why I called them "old"...they're still prevalent in the way we think everyday ("Oh my god...she had sex? And she's HAPPY about it? She's SUCH a slut."). :rolleyes:

[FaeRain]

Equal Rights for All

I'm married to a man and handfasted to a woman. But if I had my druthers I'd only be married to her. And I'd be able to keep my children, or have joint custody with my husband if anything ever happend. But I know that they could very easily be taken away from me, just b/c of falling in love with a woman. I know this because I live in a pretty conservative small town and was separated from my husband for a month or so last year. During which time we were in court and I learned that the courts would lean towards him having custody.

Fortunately, my husband and I worked things out and are learning how to negotiate being in an open relationship.

[AstraSkye]

Bi, and supporting equal rights for all.

[Darkrose360]

Straight and equal rights for all!I have gay friends and I see the kind of narrow minded crap they have to deal with everyday.It's none of my business who you sleep with,and,it's none of your business who I sleep with.LIVE YOUR LIFE!!

[DayDreamer]

I'm very straight.... and believe that gay people should be able to marry whomever they choose (regardless of gender), put a life partner on their medical insurance, have and keep their children, and have all the rights that every other citizen has.

[jcldragon]

I've noticed that Gay men never hit on the women who interest me, & I appreciate the favor...

I've known Gay couples who practiced Tantric Yoga together, & reported the same experiences as Straight couples. That should be a Big Clue that the Universe is not concerned with sexual preference, but just with the quality of the relationship.

I do wish that all men who are better looking than I, were Gay, because, frankly, I don't need the competition. And my gay friends like that notion, because it would open up the field for them. hehehe

[13thChylde]

I'm bi, and hope for equal rights for all. Can't believe that it's still an issue this far down the road. Evolve already!

[Pesha]

Ok I am straight. Big whoop. Have said it once and will say it again:

We are of the ONE and trhe ONE is in all of us.

BB

D's...also known as...

[sianand_flidais]

I am bi and equal rites for all... Won't say no more coz it seems like it's all been said already.

[Autumn]

I think that people should be treated equally unless they have demonstrated by criminal activity that they do not want to be citizens of our society...

[Killing_Yggdrasil]

i'm bi. Sexuality is fluid. It moves, and flows, and if you really love a person, it doesn't matter whats between their legs.

but then again, we are surrounded by a society that says, all men must drink beer, and that beauty can only be attained by the tall, blonde, proportioned and thin.

On the topic of Gay/Lesbian adoptions, firstly, who cares if the child grows up homosexual. It isn't some cancer, that plagues society, it's simply a choice.
And secondly, that couple is certainly not forcing their choices down the child's throat. Society will pressure that child, as it pressured his/her parents to be normal because, "it's just not cool to be different".

"you can do anything, as long as you do it our way"

But, I myself, am not certain if i would adopt a child if i lived with a man. Not because i think two men can't raise a child, but because, i'm in high school right now. and (being male) most boys my age, show very homophobic tendencies. And, if nothing changes, I don't know if i could adopt a child, love that child as my son or daughter, and then knowingly "give" (can't think of a better word) them to a society that will most likely persecute them for their fathers choice. Gay/Lesbian hate crimes are quite rampant, be it physical abuse, or verbal abuse. both leave lasting scars. and, unfortunately, it seems to be that, if the child were straight, it wouldn't save them the pain. Two daddy's or Two mommies, is one too many. "He's different, let's hurt him" And the people who aren't homophobes, cannot defend gay/bi/lesbians, simply because, then they too would be attacked. "S/He must be one of them too! Get 'em!" and that, is disgusting.

And of course in gradeschool (and, alas, it seems highschool as well) the worst insult you can fling is "You're Gay".

I hear people expressing their dislike, of an event or situation by saying "That's Gay." As though homosexuality is something horrid and degenerate, perverted and twisted to the point that, "those things aren't even human" (yes, i have actually heard someone say that)

All, i am saying, is that there is a lot of abuse out in the world. I know that first hand. I am lucky to have surrounded myself with people who can accept me for who i am. And, i back any homosexual relationship who wants to adopt a child 100%. i think it's wonderful. I just dont know, if i could do it.

then again, a 16 year old really needn't be thinking about having children, does he?

On the marriage factor, yes, homosexual relationships should be allowed to be married, legally. and, being denied that fact, does cause a lot of financial/economic hindrences. but, in my eyes, marriage is a pretty piece of paper. You can exchange vows without it.

by all means, i am adamantly backing equal rights for all. But, i also beleive in making the best of a bad situation. I know if i ever found a boy (the one i crush on is straight, and a bit homophobic (at least socially, when we talk, he isn't), simply because his friends wouldnt accept him if he wasn't. sad, isn't it?) and fell in love, i would want to be married. But if i can't because some high strung economist, or shortsighted reliegious zealot opposes me, I can be perfectly comfortable, loving that man, without a wedding ring.

I reiterate, If you truly love someone, it doesn't matter what is between their legs. Everyone has the same glow in the bathroom light, and, late at night, when you are lying in bed next to them, everyone feels the same. warm.

[Fairywolf]

I personally don't care if you are gay bi or inbetween ( thats my catagory) Your prefrence it that YOURS!! I think EVERYONE should have equal rights. Period. I guess thats all I have to say! :lol:

[MistOfTheSea86]

i'm bi. Sexuality is fluid. It moves, and flows, and if you really love a person, it doesn't matter whats between their legs.

but then again, we are surrounded by a society that says, all men must drink beer, and that beauty can only be attained by the tall, blonde, proportioned and thin.

On the topic of Gay/Lesbian adoptions, firstly, who cares if the child grows up homosexual. It isn't some cancer, that plagues society, it's simply a choice.
And secondly, that couple is certainly not forcing their choices down the child's throat. Society will pressure that child, as it pressured his/her parents to be normal because, "it's just not cool to be different".

"you can do anything, as long as you do it our way"

But, I myself, am not certain if i would adopt a child if i lived with a man. Not because i think two men can't raise a child, but because, i'm in high school right now. and (being male) most boys my age, show very homophobic tendencies. And, if nothing changes, I don't know if i could adopt a child, love that child as my son or daughter, and then knowingly "give" (can't think of a better word) them to a society that will most likely persecute them for their fathers choice. Gay/Lesbian hate crimes are quite rampant, be it physical abuse, or verbal abuse. both leave lasting scars. and, unfortunately, it seems to be that, if the child were straight, it wouldn't save them the pain. Two daddy's or Two mommies, is one too many. "He's different, let's hurt him" And the people who aren't homophobes, cannot defend gay/bi/lesbians, simply because, then they too would be attacked. "S/He must be one of them too! Get 'em!" and that, is disgusting.

And of course in gradeschool (and, alas, it seems highschool as well) the worst insult you can fling is "You're Gay".

I hear people expressing their dislike, of an event or situation by saying "That's Gay." As though homosexuality is something horrid and degenerate, perverted and twisted to the point that, "those things aren't even human" (yes, i have actually heard someone say that)

All, i am saying, is that there is a lot of abuse out in the world. I know that first hand. I am lucky to have surrounded myself with people who can accept me for who i am. And, i back any homosexual relationship who wants to adopt a child 100%. i think it's wonderful. I just dont know, if i could do it.

then again, a 16 year old really needn't be thinking about having children, does he?

On the marriage factor, yes, homosexual relationships should be allowed to be married, legally. and, being denied that fact, does cause a lot of financial/economic hindrences. but, in my eyes, marriage is a pretty piece of paper. You can exchange vows without it.

by all means, i am adamantly backing equal rights for all. But, i also beleive in making the best of a bad situation. I know if i ever found a boy (the one i crush on is straight, and a bit homophobic (at least socially, when we talk, he isn't), simply because his friends wouldnt accept him if he wasn't. sad, isn't it?) and fell in love, i would want to be married. But if i can't because some high strung economist, or shortsighted reliegious zealot opposes me, I can be perfectly comfortable, loving that man, without a wedding ring.

I reiterate, If you truly love someone, it doesn't matter what is between their legs. Everyone has the same glow in the bathroom light, and, late at night, when you are lying in bed next to them, everyone feels the same. warm.


I have reiterated in many other threads based on this topic that all should have equal rights, constitutionally. Moral objection should not lead to unlawful rejection.

Now on the note of thinking about having children. Why can't you think about it? Honestly, I do not see the problem. Then again this is comnig from someone who thinks about marriage and having children, even joint bank accounts on some junctures. However all of this is idealized, nothing I would wake up in the morning and go do. However, I feel thinking about it is not only healthy but necessary to some degree. How else can you know what you want and need if you don't question your own motives and decisions going into a relationship? I learned this lesson the hard way recently after having to end a 7 month relationship... It wasn't fun.

Just to again reiterate! It is healthy to think. *steps off his soapbox*

[WynnJera]

I'm Straight: Equal rights for all ... I have been hit on by another female and I am like WOO HOO ... I am hot to both men and women ... :thumbsup: ... I think everyone has the right to love and have families in the comforts of their lifestyle :)

[Mistiblue]

I am straight.... My attitude is "live and let live" and I don't care what preferences other people have. One of the best friends I ever had was a wonderful guy who just happened to be gay. Equal rights for Everyone...
http://www.mysticwicks.com/images/smilies2/sport006.gif

[Sequoia]

Well, I havn't posted in quite some time in this thread. . .

^^;; but I'd like to update my position. Bisexual, rights for all, and oh, I'm currently with a woman. So. . . well. . . guess that confirms that! *chuckles*

[Altheia]

Straight...equal rights for all no matter what.

[Xentor]

We're all different. We're all unique.

Just like everybody else.

Equality for all!

a/b/g/s? Who cares?

[zakzekezedd]

I'm straight, but I really think that what matters should be whether a person is a decent, honest, respectful and caring individual, not what their sexual preferences may be. There is something inherently wrong in legal or any other kind of discrimination based on sexual preferences, or race, or religious choice.

[Crystal_Raye]

I'm not really sure what I am right now. Somedays I feel I'm bisexual, somedays I feel I'm lesbian, and somedays I feel 100% straight. I don't really have a crush on any perticular sex or individual person yet. I'm hoping to be a bi when my horomones finally calm down. But whatever I feel I will always feel that everyone deserves equal rights no matter what.

[Rae ShadowWolf]

People are People. I'm not going to judge someone differently if they are of different sexual preference than I. I only have one stipulation with that. Don't preach. I don't like it about religions, I don't like it about sexuality. You are entitled to do as you please, just don't try to make me change. I'm straight by the way.

[Starfly]

I'm straight and I believe in equal rights for all no matter what orientation they are. At the moment I'm in an open marriage with my husband being straight and my other significant other being bi, and that doesn't bother me one bit. I actually got to meet my boyfriend's ex-boyfriend recently and he is gay, and as far as I can tell, I really wonderful person who I would certainly like to get to know better. I also enjoy being able to talk with my boyfriend about other guys that both of us think are cute. :smile:

[Flutterby_whispers]

I am bi-sexual although am currently in a heterosexual relationship, I'm lucky in that my husband does not mind me being bi-sexual and allows me to still explore that side of me ..

If we were to ever brake away I would more than likely be with a woman if anyone .. so I guess in saying all of that you all can propably guess my opinion on this subject lol

So w/out getting long winded our pulling out my soap box ~ I think we should all have equal rights .. I think it's wrong to have it otherwise.

[Saiya]

Equal rights for all. This is like the seperation of blacks and whites. Did you know that the guy who discovered that there were different blood types (e.g. A, B, AB, O) was black? Did you know he bled to death because they wouldn't let him into the hospital? It was for whites only.

I think that judging someone by their sexual orientation is ridiculous, I mean, why should anyone care what other people do in personal relationships? They don't have to do it, so they shouldn't bother worrying about it. :geez:
There's been a lot on the news lately (at least in Nebraska) about same sex marriages. I sure hope that these people are allowed to be married, because if two people love each other, the state shouldn't prevent them from being joined in marriage. It's, IMHO, very stupid.
I'm not entirely sure -what- my sexual orientation is, I think I'm too young to decide right now (I'm 15), but whatever I do become, I'll be proud of it.

[Xentor]

why should anyone care what other people do in personal relationships?

Perhaps because we like to think that the way we do things ourselves is the right way. And we can only believe that when we believe that others are doing it the wrong way. (Pun unintended.)

[Saiya]

Perhaps because we like to think that the way we do things ourselves is the right way. And we can only believe that when we believe that others are doing it the wrong way. (Pun unintended.)


LOL, yea I guess you're right, but I just can't think that way, I figure, if it doesn't affect me, then I shouldn't care. Not that I have to force myself to not care anyway, but...yea.

[LadyAutumnCat]

I am straight, but I believe in equality for all. I believe no one has the right to infringe upon anyone else's rights. Who cares who anyone loves male or female?

[Alaiyo]

Equal rights for all. This is like the seperation of blacks and whites. Did you know that the guy who discovered that there were different blood types (e.g. A, B, AB, O) was black? Did you know he bled to death because they wouldn't let him into the hospital? It was for whites only.

His name was Dr. Charles Drew and what happened to him was NOT the exception but the rule. Behaviour such a that contributed to a longstanding fear that Black people still have largely as a people of receiving mistreatment by hospitals largely staffed with white folks. Granted, you'd see it in older folks and their children who are the boomers at the older end of the spectrum that LIVED it, but that it is there is sad.

The Blues singer Bessie Smith also died because the closest hospital to her was for whites only and would not admit her. Depending on where you lived, there wasn't a separate functioning hospital for Blacks, and if there was, it was not always the nearest. This was the case in Bessie Smith's story. She died before she could receive treatment.

Not too long ago here in Massachusetts (or Ground Zero as I call it) some teenagers beat up two lesbians that were out with their kids and severely injured one of them. I don't remember all of the the details except that the police did not follow up as they should have and the kids got away and away with it. There was a group that held a night against violence because of it.



There's been a lot on the news lately (at least in Nebraska) about same sex marriages. I sure hope that these people are allowed to be married, because if two people love each other, the state shouldn't prevent them from being joined in marriage. It's, IMHO, very stupid.
I'm not entirely sure -what- my sexual orientation is, I think I'm too young to decide right now (I'm 15), but whatever I do become, I'll be proud of it.

Here in Massachusetts it is a waiting game. We wait for same sex marriage to be legalized here (hence me referring to it as Ground Zero). I don't have any friends in Canada and frankly found little fanfare here about the legalizing of same sex marriage there, but then we had moere weightier issues such as whether Ben and J.Lo are going to be married or not.
I am all in favor of legalizing same sex marriage. I am sorry but I find those who want there to just be civil unions betweens people in the GLBT community to be comical. :stomp: :stooges:

To me having sex is an important part of a person's life but it is not the total sum of a person's life. It seems that as humans there is always the need to hold someone or something as superior.

The big picture is lost sight of.

[Sparrow]

I come from a family full of queers! LOL! Seriously, my mother is a lesbian in a long term, committed relationship with a woman, my brother(and only sibling) is gay, and I label myself as "queer"(because bi doesn't really fit me, I favor women) and am married to man, believe it or not! Actually, when I met my husband I was only dating women!

IMO, civil unions should be the "norm", and marriage should be something specifically religious, like handfastings. Then there's no reason for debate. And all types of unions should receive the same benefits.

It's very sad to me that the GLBQT community is so discriminated againist in this country, simply for being who they are :(

[Opala]

I'm Bi, I wish (legally) people could marry whomever they wanted.

[Iris]

Firstly, I think it's ridiculous that this should even be a subject for discussion in this day and age. Discriminating against people on such arbitary grounds as their sexuality should be right up there with discrimination by sex or race - ie it's just plain idiocy and bigotry.

I voted "Straight - equal rights for all." If a couple, ANY couple, want to stand up in public and declare their love for one another, then I don't understand why anyone would want to impede them. Personally I would wish them the best of luck! It's very strange that some straight people seem to think homosexual love is somehow less valid than heterosexual love. I don't even begin to understand that mode of thinking. In a discussion on this subject on another board, I remember one user posted this comment; "If we allow gays to marry, the whole point of marriage will become a farce. Next we'll have people marrying their dogs." Nice to see bigotry is alive and well in the 21st century.

As far as raising kids goes, I'm with most of the rest of you on this. Any couple who can raise a child in a loving, responsible and stable environment are welcome to try as far as I'm concerned.

This may be a slight tangent - but one thing that really annoys me is people who make sweeping statements about "Oh, gays are lovely people." One of my friends actually once said "I have nothing against gay men, they're the nicest people in the world." Um...yes. Because all homosexual men share the SAME personality. I'm sure there are some utter jerks out there who are gay, just as there are some utter jerks out there who are straight. Reverse homohphobia is no better than homophobia itself! And another thing - a friend of mine just came out of the closet. I've noticed a lot of people in my circle of friends have now started referring to him in this manner; "Oh, my friend Andy - who's gay - ..." I find this to be ridiculous. We don't say "My friend Jen - who's straight - ..." I don't understand why gay people have to be defined by their sexuality. Can't they just be defined as who they ARE? To me, my friend is just "Andy". He hasn't suddenly become "Andy my gay friend". Geez. People annoy me sometimes!

Ok, rant over.

[Saiya]

You know, I totally agree, but I think the statement, "I have nothing against gay people, they're so nice" is true on some level. A lot of my friends lead alternative lifestyles, and most of them are generally nicer then people who are homophobic or whatever, and I'll tell you why I think that is; because they're open-minded. They don't fuss over so-called 'controversial' topics such as gay marriage, etc.
I know what I'm trying to say here, but I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correctly. Does anyone understand where I'm coming from?

[Sparrow]

I think I understand what you're saying Saiya00. I remember I took a couple straight friend's to Indy's gay pride day once, and one of them said something like, "I've never felt more comfortable in a group of people." I think, in general, the GLBQT community tends to be more open minded and accepting, and people sense that. Of course that doesn't mean ALL of them are, or that they all have the same personality.

I do know what you mean too though Iris. The thing that bugs me the most is when people say things like "I'm not homophobic- I have a gay friend!"

[Saiya]

I agree, that's very irritating

[Aidron]

My two ounces of faerie dust on the matter:

Discrimination is a plague, and kills more people every year than anything else. As pagans, I'm sure most of you are well aware of the fact that negativity in any form can and often is absorbed by people all over the globe, leading to physical sickness, and even death. Beyond that there are those who act out their hatred, and again, more lives are lost. Then there are those who succumb to hatred and take their own lives. The sheer number of deaths that are caused due to prejudice is quite literally mind-blowing.

I know quite a few people teach their children to notice the differences in everyone, and respect them, but also I think we should spend an equal amount of time looking at our similarities. When you have a meld of both of these, then you have... what's that? Harmony! When you begin to identify people too much with a single label (such as the examples given about "Oh, my friend Andy, who is gay...") begin to make various prejudices bubble, and eventually boil over. It's also just another form of isolation, albeit unintentional most of the time, but isolation none the less. We should not be working to seperate everyone by labels, but linking them together, without labels.

I find the concept that you are denied your basic right to express your love in a ceremony, legalities aside, absolutely absurd. To be denied the right to express any emotion, thought, ideal, or what have you (so long as you are not intentionally causing harm to others) is ludicrous. I am a strong advocate of freedom of choice. If you wish to believe gay people are evil and going to burn for all eternity, that's fine. Just do not go around cramming it down other peoples' throats and creating discord preventing them from living their lives in a positive way.

However, discrimination is two-fold. As a gay person myself, I have seen this and I believe it is more evident if you yourself are gay, or bisexual as many gay people are heterophobic, which is just as bad. Another example of this (and this sort of absolute hypocrisy really sets my inner cauldron aflame!) are pagans who are forever spitting up negative drivel towards christians, judging them, and the like. Gay people are forever claiming they wish equal rights, yet I see few willing to make the sacrifices to obtain them. Most, actually, do want special rights in that they isolate themselves only to socializing with other gay people, attending gay events, etc. If you are forever isolating yourself from the rest of the world, you cannot honestly hope to abolish fear and discrimination. This is what many gay people do. I've known many, and at the very mention that I am a witch, they will freak out and here we go all over again, into a spiral of ignorance, prejudice, and absolute nonsense, but moments later someone judges them for being gay and they flip out, calling it an outrageous.

I personally have grown to prefer the company of straight people, for the sheer fact that gay people, due to the garbage society vomits up are very often unstable and mentally unsound. It's sad, but a fact, and most cannot deal with it. There's no real blame here, as each (society, and the people affected, in this case, the gay community) are contributing in their own ways to a perpetual cycle of negativity. Plus, straight guys do not stand there undressing me with their eyes, tearing at the very fibers of my patience, but that's neither here nor there.

Tolerance, in and of itself, I think should be stricken from all discussions such as this. The very idea is such as "I will 'tolerate' you, but I still think you should not be allowed to breathe." Acceptance is a much more positive term in this sense I believe, in that you are informed and are accepting that person with love, love for your fellow brothers and sisters.

In the end, absolute acceptance of any social order or creed will never manifest itself, for that has to be yin and yang, love and hate, acceptance and prejudice. Sad, but that is how the universe works.

Still, I hope that someday legal marriages will be a possibility for gay people, for no other reason than straight people are granted that same privelage. I personally would never exercise it (I want my money kept seperate from whatever lunatic I wind up marrying!), but it would be nice to know that I have the option. However, I could be just as satisfied with a simple ceremony, with no legalities tied to it, as I think that is what marriage should be about, but in this world, you cannot ignore the legal matters, so like I said, it would still please me to have that option.

Lack of options and freedom are pushed by those who wish everyone to be like them, have fun the way they have fun, live the way they live, and that simply will never happen, no matter how many asinine laws people as a whole come up with, or how far they push this.

[Saiya]

well put Raven, and even though I may not agree with some of your ideas, I -do- stand with you about the idea that "Discrimination is a plague" ...and I think it's a disgusting disease. Thank Goddess I don't have it.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Also, I -do- know some pagans who judge Christians just because of their religion, and then they whine when they're judged in return. I just wish everyone would get along! :geez: There's no need for anyone to judge anyone else. If I ever have children, I will most definitely teach them that everyone is equal!

[Aidron]

well put Raven, and even though I may not agree with some of your ideas, I -do- stand with you about the idea that "Discrimination is a plague" ...and I think it's a disgusting disease. Thank Goddess I don't have it.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Also, I -do- know some pagans who judge Christians just because of their religion, and then they whine when they're judged in return. I just wish everyone would get along! :geez: There's no need for anyone to judge anyone else. If I ever have children, I will most definitely teach them that everyone is equal!


Well I have an excellent vaccine for it if you're ever worried about catching it. *holds up a bottle with an eye dropper labeled: "Understanding"* ;)

I plan to adopt myself someday, and I will also most definately teach them to be at harmony with the universe, and everyone and everything in it as best I can.

(One will be an asian boy named "Bubba" and one a hispanic girl named "Brunhilda". My kids will hate me.... :p)

[Saiya]

(One will be an asian boy named "Bubba" and one a hispanic girl named "Brunhilda". My kids will hate me.... :p)

:lol:

Adoption is beautiful ^-^

[Alaiyo]

(One will be an asian boy named "Bubba" and one a hispanic girl named "Brunhilda". My kids will hate me.... :p)

Could be worse. Daughter could be Bubba and the son could be Brunhilda.

Incidentally one of my sons will be called "Pasha" which wouldn't turn heads if we lived in Russia ...My ready reply to his righteous indignation will be, "You know, you were one step away from being named Strelnikov."

[Dindrane]

I don't think that someone has the right to tell another what sexual preference they should/shouldn't have. It's just like people who think witches are evil and we should all be christians... I'm not going to be christian because someone told me I had to be...
I have a lot of bi/gay friends, I believe they should have the same human rights as I do.

Blessings,
Dindrane

[twisted_silhouette]

Bisexual. A liitle mix of both sexes.

Twisted Silhouette

[DixieWitch]

I'm bisexual.. gays, lesbians, transgendered or straight--jsut like all people of color...we all bleed red. Nothing offends me....

[NightBathen]

I am straight as the straightest arrow, but we have something in the field called a 69-Zulu, or field moral specialist. Its a little hole in the side of the track that gets your bangalore blowin on a cold october morn! The Army says dont ask, dot tell, so we dont. So if its a guy on the other end of that hole, and I dont know it, does that make me gay?

[Xentor]

Not necessarily, although the guy on the other end might be...

[NightBathen]

:woot: :yourock: I needed a laugh, there just insnt enough humor in MW nowadays

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

Straight, but our best friends are a gay couple.

[Kithling]

I personally am Bi, leaning slightly towards hetero. I think that everyone should have equal rights.

It's incredibly frustrating how closed-minded some people are. I had a "friend" who was fine with gays, but couldn't stand bisexual people.

It's silly, the distinctions that are made between sex; what's right and what's wrong. People always say that they've found their "soulmate." The word soul doesn't have anything to do with sex, other than purely grammatical terms.

*sigh*

I would scribble more but I have a problem to attend to.

[Kithling]

One quick thought that I had right after this.. (was reading the bit on adoption).

I only plan on having two kids that I bear myself, but I want to adopt (haven't actually mentioned this to my boyfriend yet.. *lol* can't wait for the reaction). My mind has always had a vision of lots of children, I'm a mother at heart. Different races, backgrounds, etc. I want to be able to spread the acceptance that I'm personally ready to give, even if I don't agree with someone's views.

[Vuthiel]

I'm straight, but about 95% of my friends are gay (both women and men). Thankfully, I live in Vermont (the first state to legalize gay marriages) so there isn't much dispute over gay rights. Vermont has been a fairly conservative state in the past, but over the last 10 years or so, this state has become more and more liberal in it's views. Granted, there are still quite a few Vermont residents that are rather conservative that have protested the passing of the Civil Unions laws, but they seem to be a minority here. I find it kind of interesting that such a tiny state with no real cities (with the possible exception of Burlington and Rutland, which are still very small compared to major cities such as New York, Boston, Seattle, etc) would have such progressive, liberal laws like the Civil Unions laws. What I found even more surprising was that we were the first state to legalize gay marriages. Little Vermont! It still is sort of a mind-blower. Especially since a large part of the population consists of Christian fundamentalists (which, it is my understanding, think of homosexuallity as morally wrong... I could be completely wrong about that though, since I can't say I've really read up on their views on homosexuallity). I'm happy to see that since we passed the Civil Unions laws, that other states have since done the same. (California, I believe? Maybe a couple others, also.) I really think that homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals. I mean, "all men are created equal", right? If that really is the case, then everyone should be allowed to have the same legal rights. It was my understanding that the whole point behind Civil Unions laws were to allow homosexual couples the same tax benefits of married heterosexual couples... I see no reason why homosexuals shouldn't have the same financial benefits as heterosexuals. Saying homosexuals shouldn't be able to get married (because Christianity, I think-again, I could be wrong here,- doesn't support homosexuality... and thus, they wouldn't have a church wedding, supposedly), when heterosexuals can would be like saying Pagans can't get married (because they, supposedly, would not have a church wedding... in the traditional Christian sense, that is), when Christians can. (I hope that makes sense, lol)

Anyway... just my two cents. :)

[FeatherGoblinglimmer]

I'm bisexual with the perfect partner( YAy me:) ) but i think that there souldn't be any distinctions in the sex of the partner.

[BrenaSidhe]

--- "Trully Equel Rights = No need for "Special Rights" ---

--- I'm in a comited gay relationship of almost 11yrs, prior I had boyfriends, a girlfriend or two and even a husband...
I've got 3 kids ages 18yr. , 11yr. & 6yr....
The eldest is from my previouse marrige, but "most" of his life has been raised by my currant partner and I, the 11yr old I had just prior to us getting together and the youngest my partner carried...
Don't mean to turn this into a band wagon , but it's really messed up when as a family we've been given kudos by every school counselor/teacher/Dr's... The kids are all well ajusted and smart, all just "NORMAL KIDS" capable of interacting with any other children...
Yet we can't get married, can't officially adopt each others kids, can't "completly" get legal documents to protect each other,children, or even belongings in case of illness or death... Papers CAN be drawn up, and the case WOULD be taken into consideration if something happened, BUT, if either parent or next of kin fought it, they'd most likely win...
My parents are to old to fight for anything, but my partners mother and sister would fight to the death...
Then theres things like the Tax breaks and all that, I almost cringe when I hear this part of it, as in the minds of many, this side of it cheapens the reason why marrige is wanted in th 1st place...
[All they want is the money/breaks] But like it or not for those people, this is a part of life, and when you commit and share that life with another, you need these things...

---As to call it marrige/contract/union? I trully DO NOT CARE, just call it something and make it fair... I could care less if it's recognised by the church, a church, whatever... Theres many straight weddings that are done by a judge and arn't ordained by church either...
[ok sorry I'm done]

---So "what exactly am I?" Heheheeee when asked I just say QUEER, some it up fairly well... I love who I love, gender isn't an issue...

[Aylwyn]

I can't possibly imagine who you spend your time with would have any bearing on the rights that are given to you. Further, who you choose to make your life partner has no bearing on on those said rights. The insurance companies won't recognize same sex marriages. Why?, what business of theirs could possibly be effcted by a same sex marriage as opposed to an oppisite sex marriage? Death benefits is another area where individuals are excluded, why?

[Dextra]

I'm bi. I've had more relationships with men than women, but who knows what the future holds? I think that same-sex couples should have the same rights as anyone else. I don't think same-sex couples should receive any special priveleges, like BrenaSidhe said. I've signed many a petition and argued extensively for equal rights for gays and lesbians. I was in a hetero relationship for a few years and I didn't change my views on that, although if I had been in a lesbian relationship, I would have most likely been a lot more active in my pursuits.

[Avalon]

Simply put, straight: with equal rights for everyone. http://www.petwrites.com/smilies/apple.gif

[redlady]

Well right now I'm stinging, because although I have never said or done anything to hurt my gay friends, for the past 3 weeks THEY have been picking on me and teasing me for being straight "you should learn to love the V on V thing", " you oughta try a woman" etc, etc, beyond all human and witchly endurance. And these are the men!! They even discussed fisting at the table in the restaurant when they took me out for my birthday. ENOUGH! If gay people are going to to yell and scream about their feelings and their rights, then I as a straight person, should be able to do the same thing without getting bitch slapped for it. Whew! Rant over, thanks! :rant:

[Alaiyo]

Well, to be honest 'fisting' isn't exactly an appropriate dinner conversation topic unless you are discussing safer sex practices. And from my personal experinces, men no matter what their preference, will feel more at home discussing sex in public than women will. This is not ALL men, but I've been out with a lot of male fiends because I could hold my liquor and favored the beer and hard drinks and let's just say that I hope for their sake that none of them take over for Mr. Rogers. And once they get to drinking, they have no problem speaking about sex with mixed coompany unless their significant other is there. (no matter what the orientation)

As to the rest, I think that happens across all different kinds of groups. As someone who has friends with such various points of views and cultures, I have been in similar situations. All I can say is that you speak up for yourself, in that you say that well, I don't like it when you tease me about this or talk about that. You also have determine how you want to relate to things. I have a number of female friends but I actually hang out more with males because the female friends cover topics that I know are a part of what it is to be a girl but that I really don't want to hear or talk about such as who is hot, why they don't have a guy, watching calories and the program that will help them do this the best and what to avoid (a HUGE PET PEEVE OF MINE especially when carried out at a restaurant)...but there are situations where if I want to participate in certain social actvities, it's the trade off I make because with my friends in particiular I know that this is not the WHOLE of them.

I also have quite a few born again Christians in my family and in certain social things that I do. I don't stop associating with them and I have no hesitation on saying that I have no problem with them expressing their religious views on things, I just ask them to acknowledge my views which sometimes run in opposition to theirs and not put down and that people not spend every minute of the day trying to convert me or hold "spiritual interventions." I also again have a sense of my threshold. With the family members, we speak on a list of limited topics--doesn't mean I love them any less I have just realized that life is too short and this was a way of satisfying everyone. Sadly though it's not unlike schools that don't allow any holiday celebrations because of "church and state." With others, they are acquaintances and I say hey but we know that I am not attending certain things nor receiving certain letters.

[Imbrium]

originally posted by Redlady

They even discussed fisting at the table in the restaurant when they took me out for my birthday. ENOUGH!
Fisting over dinner? I wouldn't have made it through dessert!

Don't feel bad about it. My brothers gay, and tends to get irritated with the same thing. I think it's just typical male behaviour as Alaiyo suggested.

As for myself, I'm straight. Equal rights for all....however, I'm going to say that while I think that Gay folks and straight folks need to be treated as equals, that sex in general needs to be approached more responsibly by both sides. Lest society as a whole find itself up to it's ears in STDs and orphaned children. No fun for anybody then.

[Noressa]

Gah. The only time fisting was appropriate conversation was when I was talking with a woman who used to work on the sex help hotline in SF. (You have to know a lot to answer questions in SF. ^^; ) Beyond that, I'm sorry, that's not appropriate dinner conversation. Not for me at any rate.

Other then that, equal rights for all. :)

[WayMan]

[QUOTE=Imbrium]Fisting over dinner? I wouldn't have made it through dessert!QUOTE]


What is fisting ???

[Imbrium]

I'm not sure a definition would be pg-13. Since you have a computer, all you have to do is enter the term into any search engine. I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something.

[Noressa]

I would say it's when a man "enters" a woman with his fist... Is that PG-13 enough?

[WebNavigator]

I'm not sure a definition would be pg-13. Since you have a computer, all you have to do is enter the term into any search engine. I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something.


I did a search as you recomended. I have trouble accepting that people could do such disgusting things to each other. On my search I came across a book called the joy of gay sex, what an eye opener! Have you ever heard of rimming or golden showers ? Do a search, I dare you.

[WebNavigator]

I would say it's when a man "enters" a woman with his fist... Is that PG-13 enough?

Men do it to other men.

I should make it clear right now that I have never done it, I would rather poke needles in my eyes than do that.

[Alaiyo]

I did a search as you recomended. I have trouble accepting that people could do such disgusting things to each other. On my search I came across a book called the joy of gay sex, what an eye opener! Have you ever heard of rimming or golden showers ? Do a search, I dare you.

I am sketchy in my memory of what rimming is but golden showers are equal opportunity. In fact when i first heard about it, I was reading an article about Chuck Berry who amongst other things was quite the practitioner of golden showers--sober (he was quite the drug addict) and he is most definitely a het (heterosexual).

[SnoSnoflake]

You do not want to get into a discussion about what these ?????????? less than the lowest animals get up to, believe me.

[mothwench]

oh, why hello wayman. been not long since we last saw you. you should see a doc about this. honestly.

[Noressa]

I've suggested snosnoflake try the theology/philosophy boards, since this is just talking. :) And philosophy/theology seems more their flavor of discussion. :)

[SnoSnoflake]

I've suggested snosnoflake try the theology/philosophy boards, since this is just talking. :) And philosophy/theology seems more their flavor of discussion. :)


I have just been there, its very quiet.


Who is wayman ?

[Noressa]

Another person the theology/philosophy boards would have been interesting too. It's slower, but it's more the discussion topics themselves that are the same flavor as the discussions he/she tried to guide them to in this board.

[SnoSnoflake]

Another person the theology/philosophy boards would have been interesting too. It's slower, but it's more the discussion topics themselves that are the same flavor as the discussions he/she tried to guide them to in this board.

What ?

[Noressa]

Because this board is more about general talking. Not getting into the theology or hardcore set of what makes ones belief. More day to day life, worries, questions. :) The theology/philosophy board is more where you go in depth when you have questions on that sort of thing. At least, that's how I understand it. Some people here might have other ideas... I'm still mostly new here, so I'm not 100% on that one...

[SnoSnoflake]

Then why is this thread here ?

Ooooops I thought I was on the what is paganism thread.

[mothwench]

Because this board is more about general talking. Not getting into the theology or hardcore set of what makes ones belief. More day to day life, worries, questions. :) The theology/philosophy board is more where you go in depth when you have questions on that sort of thing. At least, that's how I understand it. Some people here might have other ideas... I'm still mostly new here, so I'm not 100% on that one...
you is cowwect. :) :graduate: :)
edited to add: as far as i know. :spaceman:

[Noressa]

Yay! Can I get a gold star? :)

[mothwench]

:smoke:

[Noressa]

Yay! (Ok, I know we're off topic... I return you to your regularly scheduled topics. :) )

[Semele]

Who is wayman ?
Well it's you goof! Once again, for the third time today you have been banned. Nice try though..proxy pffftt! Next time you will be reported to your ISP! Enough is enough don't ya think?!