Auto Defensive: Xjags post: Gay

[StormChaser]

Okay. I've really had it up to my eyeballs.

Xjag hasn't responded to the thread he posted, I can't particularly blame him. 2/3rds of the responses are jumping down his throat about GAY RIGHTS, when no one has bothered to PM the source and ask him nicely if that is how he meant the article. I can pretty much garuntee that was NOT how he meant his writing to be taken

I see a whole lot of some of the most retarded explaination for the automatic defense system. "I'm gay and everyone persecutes me". To this person.. I say Cry me a river, I'll play you a little violin. I'm bi. I'm out. I've been out since I was NINE YEARS OLD. Some people don't like it, the government is scared of me, society in general may not be entirely ready to deal with the fact that I enjoy the company, and love of women... but they will make do.. because I exist.

"Well i hear little buzz words and I jump to save the day"
WELL STOP! Your not saving anyone. Sit back down, ASK first about your assumption. JUMP when you know what the person means. In this place, if you think someone is downing someone, you are usually going to be WRONG! Why? Because that's the type of people MW has. Good hearted, Good meaning, Caring people.. with the exception of Illuminatus who even has his good points *winks* So back off a bit, button up a bit. Speak ye little and listen much.


"Can't have compassion for the raving lunatic" Well guess what.. "I'm mad! You're Mad! We're ALLL mad HERE!"
Happy go lucky people don't need sympathy, sad people need hugs and solutions, and this guy needs SUPPORT, EMPATHY, COMPASSION even more so than anyone else. He's going through all hell. So why don't you learn as to WHY the dragon is breathing fire, if you'd like to save the town from burning... get to the heart of the matter.



I would like to point out that this automatic defense mode has produced nothing but assumptions. Before you all assume, perhaps you should PM the source and ask NICELY if he was actually refering to gays, or if it was how you read the article that made you think it was about gays.

[Danustouch]

A resounding round of applause!!

Thanks stormchaser. I feel the SAME way.

[Old Witch]

Yay!

[mol]

Originally posted by StormChaser

"Can't have compassion for the raving lunatic" Well guess what.. "I'm mad! You're Mad! We're ALLL mad HERE!"
Happy go lucky people don't need sympathy, sad people need hugs and solutions, and this guy needs SUPPORT, EMPATHY, COMPASSION even more so than anyone else. He's going through all hell. So why don't you learn as to WHY the dragon is breathing fire, if you'd like to save the town from burning... get to the heart of the matter.

*applause*

And I agree with you as well. But, me, being the person that I am, responded with (maybe) some helpful solutions. Was I nice about it? Probably not. Anyone who knows me (really) know that I can be very harsh at times. But, I did try to help in my way and then I was condemned for it. C'mon. And dont use my awful dragon analogy out of context because I never said one thing about any gay rights issues.

You said he needed support. I gave it. He needed compassion. I gave it. Empathy? Well, I will go take care of that right now.

[mato]

Ok It is likely that we are missing eachother points on this issue however, it is very much a gay right issue as what I have heard from these response (and yes from my own too, it was very enlightening) is assumption of both the best and worst case senareo in two different mind sets. Were as I have heard simmilar statements to that effect and have seen the results of them in both people who were spoken against and simple bystanders I react very differently to something that I have seen classicly to be an attack on not only a vulnerable people (aids patients) but also to me and mine (It Is Very Much A Gay Rights Issue, if you dont realize this I dont know how else to show this to you, cause the connection is very Very Clear to me, and unfortunatley I lake the capabilities imagine what you think).
I respect your tactics of drawing 'fire' from that post and letting it revert back to its precieved intended 'compassionate' form, so although I have as of yet to see any point of view fully (cause people are holding back, and bless their hearts, they just dont want to face it). However as I see there is a problem I am going to start asking questions and they might very well evoke a simmilar response (cause like attracts like and sorry about that, but hey consider my presence as a fun learning experiance of (if nothing else) how do deal with peole you see eye to eye with.)

Expect more like this cause its not going to fade away... but I will find a better way to handle it, however if anything I say in the future sounds like an attack... I am not sure what to do about that because I am not quite sure what you consider an attack to be (refer to my posts and quotes in damn these people) as I have attempted to illistrate what I precieve to be an attack you might want to point out something that you thought was an attack (or give a reasons for not thinking the quotes in my posts werent attacks, cause I just cant see how people would not consider these attacks, ah well thats another topic) so that I can learn from a different view point.
I should probably lay off the preamptive strikes... But please remember that although I am trying to understand I can not see things from your point of view and you cant see them from mine. What you may see as an attack I may see as a block, what you might see as anger I see as a very real and dangerous mind set and what I may precieve to be an appropriate response you might see as over kill.

[mato]

but before I do anything I need to calm down... In the words of my favorite rat, "anger clouds the mind." SPLINTERRRRRR!!!!!!!!hey thats a fun topic!

[Myst]

StormChaser, thank you for saying it so clearly. I hatehatehate when people automatically jump around assuming things and pointing fingers at "buzzwords" or topics they're CERTAIN the thread is about when it's not, or what they KNOWKNOWKNOW you're thinking.

[StormChaser]

I can understand where you derived your feelings on Xjags post as being an attack..

I don't think it was in the paragraph you first pointed to.

I think perhaps, rahter than the statement regarding rights, and marches.. the feeling of anti-gay anti-aids people stems from

"In spite of what AIDS activists will tell you it is not regular hetero-sexuals who are getting AIDS. AIDS, and I will agree with them on this is a terrible thing to have and die from. The sad fact is that every AIDS patient my wife has seen all these years had either a Bi-sexual partner or was an inter-venous drug user or their partner was"

To me, this is a blatant accusation, reprimanding, and derogatory statement about aids. That's what the "emotions" side of me says. The logic side of me looks at his emotions here and says "he's pissed off.. look at that, he shortened everything so much, typed so fast he doesn't even write it how it should be written, or really get to say what he wants to say.. his main point is found at the end of the sentence" then i take it and "fix it up" so the whole blasted thing makes sense in my mind


"In spite of what AIDS activists will tell you it is not regular hetero-sexuals who are getting AIDS. AIDS, and I will agree with them on this is a terrible thing to have and die from. The sad fact is that every AIDS patient my wife has seen all these years had either a Bi-sexual partner or was an inter-venous drug user or their partner was""

To me this whole thing says "Everyone who get's aids isn't just a victim of circumstance. Not everyone, in fact most people who get aids are partially, if not wholy at fault for being irresponsible. The fact that most victims of aids are gay or have used a needle, or has had relations with someone who is gay or used a needle, makes me think that these people need to realize that it is their lifestyles, their callous that puts me and my family at stake. I am angry with people who do not realize THESE statistics."


Now you couple that with his anger toward all the people in the general maternity ward sending all the aids patients they are too chicken shit to deal with to his wife high risk unit, realizing of course that this is NOT where these moms to be with aids belong at all. First he's angry with the people who get aids through irresponsibility. Then hes angered with people who refuse to "share" the burden of the "irresponsible", but rather, ignore THEIR oaths and promises, so his family is at risk.

Granted I don't think it's great that gays are pointed at, but facts are facts. I won't deny that I'm a higher risk of getting aids than little girl catholic down the street who will stay a virgin till shes married to a clean partner.
It's sad that an anger like this is pointed at a whole community.. but community is community, you share the joys, you share the trials. Gotta take care of your own. You set a GREAT example mato, in several ways, for the gay community. You are in fact to be commended for talking about your celibacy and your decision to be "safe", even if in part it is down out of fear. Thats okay too, theres a lot to be scared about with "comming out" more so for gay males than bis and lesbians. Its the existing community of gays, the existing aids victims jobs to get out there and preach to our communities the importance of taking extra care about who you lie down with. It's the community called societies job to get out there and HELP educate EVERYONE not just those at "greater" risk. Risk is risk. Everyone deserves to know how to cut down their losses.

Unfortunately, homophobia does have much of the country swept up. And that prevents much of this education from reaching beyond the bounds of those with the knowlege.

I feel bad for you because you seem very concerned about your gay status.. I don't rightly know where you live, and i cant particularly identify with being afraid to be out. I'm a bisexual female... straight guys would love me even if i was a lesbian.. because they have that stupid "watch" wish. I've got a lot of confidence, I've got a great family, and a large very open minded religious community, and a few REALLY close friends.. who know EVERYTHING about me, and always have my back. I hope this sort of circumstance finds you, if not now, then soon.

~Storm

[mato]

That helps me to see were you are coming from... and why I was missing your points. I am far from logical, I am ruled by my emotions and I dont understand people who let their logical sides overwhelm their emotional sides. On this topic I am particularly edgey, because in my city which is one the tip of the bible belt, the only good gay is a dead gay. Last week was the third anniversary of my gay brothers mysterious dissapearance, I dont know anything about it and I am frustrated with it! I look around and think 'gee he could be dead and what if he were to have been killed? What if someone had had the oppertunity to stop it before it started? What if he died of AIDS and thats why he left in the first place, maybe he is alive and ashamed of something like having AIDS. Maybe... What if he is one of those statistics I read about?' and it pisses me off that people can be so callouse to others, I have to say something, that old say little listen much doesnt work when you are dealing with ideas and emotions of hatered, silence here is cowardice and death, if not my own than some one elses, someones silence may have caused my brothers death, but I dont even know if he is dead or alive!
I reacted the way i did first in response to the original post and then in response to Ill's post which I found disturbing. I have heard simmilar things from people before they embark on the odd right of passage in these parts of beating down any gay they can out. Now some dismissed Ill's post as a joke, but I have heard jokes and that didnt sound like one to me... Hell I have a dark sense of humor and I wouldnt even joke about that.
I also have a problem with people telling me that I am missinterpriting what I read so clearly that it is stupifying that people wouldnt consider what I was seeing as what that person meant. That people would even think that my interpritation is flawed because I can draw conclusions from statements that are intended to be drawn. (um i thought that alot of pagans used tarot cards runes ouija boards and what not to draw conclusions about the future, and arent there any naustradamous people here at all? cause mine werent nearly as streatched as some 'predictions' I have read of naustradamous's which got me in trouble on another board! I must be missing something...)

And please every one if you are going to refer to me in your posts please do it flat out dont say 'some one *wink wink* said...' i find that disrespectful, I will stand by my posts so please don't do that. Or am i yet agian reading too much into posts! lol

[StormChaser]

When I, meaning ME, say "don't jump to conclusions".. it's not meant to say "don't have an opinion" "don't infer that someone implied"... but rather a warning to all parties involved that it IS all together possible that you are misinterpreting what someone means. I could be wrong in my assesment.. you could be wrong in your assesment.. the only way you can really ever know what a writer means is by asking them personally to clarify.

I like to believe that people are generally good and well meaning.
I have NOT been so optimistic for many years... and have recently come out of my own "shell" so to speak. For many years I was silent, because my father told me that's what good proper children were. For many years I was angry and vengeful, because I got sick of being told to shut up.

Then I got a clue and realized that there ARE in betweens.. so many infact that often I think words like "always" and "never" should be completely erased from the dictionary.

I am sorry to hear about your brother. A family friend of ours committed suicide because he just couldn't stand being separated from his family by the shame he felt.

So many bad things happen because of shame and fear of losing people you love, or being condemned by those you don't know.
Sad, true story about my ex's aunt. When she found out she was pregnant, she and her bf decided to elope because she was afraid of her strict catholic parents reaction. But instead of marrying her, the guy killed my ex's aunt. Bad things happen, for a lot of reasons. None of which can take away the pain.

People want to feel protected and safe. Safety, true, 100% safety simply does not exist in nature. If you seek perfection you have to seek true acceptance and appreciation for things as they stand.

I don't mean to tell people how to live, or how to think. I'm pretty sure I come off that way. I am after all, a bossy, opinionated capricorn. Everything i say that discusses topics like this one, should be taken with the "In my opinion" stance.
This is all just the ramblings of a sleep deprived lunatic who is trying to make up for 6 years of wasting her life being over emotional to the detriment of others by helping solve communication problems with the skills learned through several courses, and life.


I guess thats all i have to say right now. I've had 6 hours sleep in 72 hours.

Sad.

[mato]

Oh your an optumist too?! Ok it is just a massive clash of personalities (and depending on who else is an optimist it could be the reason for some other mistakes too) than cause I cant afford to be one, I cant believe in the good nature of humanity, I expect the worst and I get the worst, maybe because thats what I expect but maybe because thats all that is there.
Ok that helps alot more! I am a pessemist at heart, people are far to often worse than I thought they could be (ok would that make me an optimistic pessimist?), and at some point in my life I just stopped caring for the people I considered to be needlessly sour nasty peices of ****, and decided to help were I could, without expecting drastic changes do to my interferance. How can I help when I dont expect to change the people? I dont know I just do, everything else is up to them. I give compassion empathy and support (I am not door mat so I dont hand these out) to whom I see needs it not just to any one who has had a bad day.

[Illuminatus]

Hey, I was offering compassion, in the only way a man can offer compassion to another man! Jag was ambiguous, he was not sure that his anger was justified. That's frustrating! So, I let him know that he was perfectly justified to feel the way he did. Sometimes, taking someone's side is the best way to show support for them, even if it's the WRONG side. Here's an example

GIRL: I'm so upset, my boyfriend cheated on me! I hate his guts!
ME: Where does he live? I'll go break his legs. Let me go get my Power of Supreme Influence from my car.
GIRL: Awww that's so sweet, thanks!

see!!! compassion through implied violence!!!

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by mato
That helps me to see were you are coming from... and why I was missing your points. I am far from logical, I am ruled by my emotions and I dont understand people who let their logical sides overwhelm their emotional sides.

If it means anything, we don't understand you either.

But, hey, to each his own. You don't have to let 'the facts' or 'a rational thought process' interfere with your precious viewpoint. You know that you're right! Because you FEEL it, right?!

Sorry to hear about your brother, I hope he turns up.

- Ill

[StormChaser]

Well Mato, I think you've been burned, repeatedly, and none of the burns were small. And like all people you had a choice to make as to how you were going to change to equip yourself better "for next time".

I can't possibly fault you for handleing things the way you do, or looking through things the way you do.. because I've been in exactly that frame of mind you were just stating.

Finally I got tired of it, and said "i really miss that wild carefree confident girl i used to be.. where did she go.. i have to find her". I went on a quest and found her. It took seeing an ultimate sadness, to break down the walls that I spent 12 years putting up, and to this day I'm still unloading rifles and cannons, putting away the gunpowder.

For some, like me, this way of dealing, being pessimistic, expecting the worst so you can never be let down.. is just a phase. For others it's a permanent mind set.

Yeah we, will probably clash because we are sitting on opposite sides of the fence, but then again, it may help both of us to talk more, because we've obviously, from what I just read, we have a lot in common.

If there are two things I can implore you to pick up sometime at the local library or video store... because, who knows, they may help you come to a happier place, or find some "ways" to find answers to some of the questions you asked, or give you new insite into how others can act or feel...

I'd actually recommend these two things to ANYONE really.

First is a book, called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
Just pick it up read the first few pages.. it's hard to summarize it, but suffice to say, it can be and has proven to be, life altering *more so than even richard simmons *wink* *

Second is a movie or rather, a movie of a play, called Into The Woods. Where Happily Ever After, isn't the end, but rather only the half way point. Reality bites fairy tales on the butt. It too has proved to be a life altering thing.

I send you giant spiritual hugs.. and they squeeze you perhaps against your pessimistic will, in hopes to give you just a little cheer. :T

[mato]

Originally posted by Illuminatus


If it means anything, we don't understand you either.

But, hey, to each his own. You don't have to let 'the facts' or 'a rational thought process' interfere with your precious viewpoint. You know that you're right! Because you FEEL it, right?!

Sorry to hear about your brother, I hope he turns up.

- Ill

Ah thanks It means alot...
Facts are funny little things, they are dependent on perceptions, I dont trust other peoples perceptions (or other peoples perceptions of otherpeoples perceptions of other peoples perceptions... ect...).
No I am not right because I feel I am right, I feel I am right because I cant see how you (any one other than me, hence the new sig.) could be right because your (again any one who isnt me) facts are based solely on your perceptions of some one elses perceptions (see above ramblings) of their 'facts' and figures. In other words why not try seeing the people for yourself, why not go out and talk to the people and such and then speack to me of your Facts.

Stormchaser (gee I envy you, I dont have to chase them, they come to me...) please dont give me spiritual hugs, they creep me out (no offense intended I just dont like to be touched, spiritually or otherwise). Those the weapons you are talking about? Neat... Any way... my local library doesnt have those (not that it would matter, I am following in a long time family tradition and have a huge fine...) And if you are done with your gunpowder can I have it? (oh there those weapons are again, I like to observe how they appear in simple communications so that I can better control them, not that I am going to disarm myself mind you, but just for the sake of learning, and learning how to better use them)

[StormChaser]

Consider hugs unsent.

The nick is highly unfitting. Don't take it literally.

You sound like my ex. Any chance your an aries?

*goes away now*

~Storm

[StormChaser]

OH now it makes sense.. the fatalistic pisces!! Aries people are more defiant.

[Danustouch]

No offense, but what I see, is Someone trying very nicely to end the argument..and wish you well. Also..trying to be kind to you, and to maybe give you some advice from , as it sounds, someone who's been there. And the other side of the argument wanting to hold onto whatever their angry about. Basically, at this point, it looks like an all out tug o' war of words..

Could ya please do this wiccanwrestlemania 01, somewhere else? ;)

[StormChaser]

believe me danu. I've had my fill.

I, unfortunately, have known "this" type. There is nothing more to be said or done here but move on.

[Myst]

Originally posted by mato
Ah thanks It means alot...
Facts are funny little things, they are dependent on perceptions, I dont trust other peoples perceptions (or other peoples perceptions of otherpeoples perceptions of other peoples perceptions... ect...).
No I am not right because I feel I am right, I feel I am right because I cant see how you (any one other than me, hence the new sig.) could be right because your (again any one who isnt me) facts are based solely on your perceptions of some one elses perceptions (see above ramblings) of their 'facts' and figures. In other words why not try seeing the people for yourself, why not go out and talk to the people and such and then speack to me of your Facts.


You don't get facts by talking to people, you get opinions. Period. Facts are numbers and proven hypotheses or disproven hypotheses, not sad stories told by angry people. So you're arguing that you disagree because Ill has based his opinion on his perceptions and other perceptions, and thats 'wrong', but then tell him to go talk to people and base his facts on THEIR perceptions. So we get to base our facts on whoever's perception you agree with today and YOUR feelings because you're "ruled by emotions"? Uh, ok, I think I'll stick with my numbers and actually reading what's written, not what I see between the lines.

[mato]

Originally posted by Danustouch
No offense, but what I see, is Someone trying very nicely to end the argument..and wish you well. Also..trying to be kind to you, and to maybe give you some advice from , as it sounds, someone who's been there. And the other side of the argument wanting to hold onto whatever their angry about. Basically, at this point, it looks like an all out tug o' war of words..

Could ya please do this wiccanwrestlemania 01, somewhere else? ;)

Um ya, thats my way of saying, "gee thats nice I am done now so I am going to make a stupid joke and walk away." I guess I will just say stuff straight out now (but thats no fun)... Ah well... yet another lesson gone unlearned (ok for those of you who dont realize this is yet another attempt to say, "I am done now so I am going to make a stupid joke and walk away.") I am not clinging to my anger, this is new anger :D (another joke).