Abortion...

[Kaylara]

New abortion restrictions planned
Emboldened House Republicans are preparing a series of measures
By JULIE MASON
Copyright 2001 Houston Chronicle Washington Bureau


WASHINGTON -- Emboldened by signals from the Bush administration and their majority in Congress, House Republicans are preparing a series of measures aimed at imposing new restrictions on abortion.

With the veto threat gone and polls suggesting nationwide opinion equally divided, abortion foes say they feel a new momentum behind their efforts.

"People are becoming more educated about how extreme the situation has become in this country," said Douglas Johnson, legislative director for the National Right to Life Committee. "Certainly, more and more people are saying there need to be changes in the law and public policy."

Recently introduced in Congress are bills that would impose new restrictions on physicians prescribing the RU-486 abortion pill and outlaw the transport of minors across state lines for abortion, and a measure imposing penalties for harming a fetus.

Expected to be renewed are measures outlawing late-term abortion, a particularly divisive issue that frequently draws the support of Democrats who largely favor abortion rights.

"The assault we have been under is more intense than at any time since (abortion was legalized in 1973)," said Kate Michelman, president of the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League. "And now the opponents of a woman's right to choose have a president who will sign their legislation, and that is what makes the threat so much more palpable."

U.S. Rep. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., who introduced the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, said his fetal-protection measure does not affect the 1973 Roe v. Wade case, which legalized abortion.

The legislation, a version of which was passed by the House in 1999 but never came up for a vote in the Senate, would enhance the penalties for a crime against a pregnant woman on behalf of her unborn child.

"I've tried to strike a delicate balance between protecting the unborn while not wandering into the divisive, highly charged, emotional battleground of abortion," Graham said.

Still, abortion-rights proponents see the bill as a significant threat to their cause because it would establish for the first time on the federal level separate and equal rights for a fetus.

"This is a smokescreen for overturning Roe v. Wade; it's a direct threat to woman's right to choose because if it becomes law it's a short step to outlawing abortion in all circumstances," Michelman said.

U.S. Rep. Kevin Brady, R-The Woodlands, is among a number of lawmakers who have signed on to a bill making it a crime to transport a minor out of state for an abortion.

The Child Custody Protection Act could be significant in states such as Texas, where parental-notification laws are blamed for sending minors to neighboring states for the procedure.

"I don't think anyone ought to be able to take your child out of state to have an abortion when your state laws want the parent involved," Brady said. "You wouldn't allow anyone to take your child out of state to have tonsils removed or other surgery."

Part of what is fueling anti-abortion measures are stances on related issues taken by the Bush administration.

After a campaign in which anti-abortion conservatives were a key part of his support, Bush moved within days of taking office to restrict U.S. foreign aid to family-planning organizations involved in abortion.

His administration also promised a review of the government's approval of abortion pill RU-486, and Bush called for an end to federally funded research on fetal tissue.

The selection of Attorney General John Ashcroft, a conservative opposed to abortion, also sent a strong signal to both sides of the issue that the climate was changing in Washington.

At a recent luncheon for contributors to Emily's List, a group that funds abortion-rights candidates, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., warned supporters not to be distracted by Bush's talk of bipartisanship.

"Behind the rhetoric and the charm is an agenda that is antithetical to what the majority of Americans voted for in this last election and what we stand for," Clinton said.

Yet recent polls have challenged some basic assumptions about public support for legalized abortion, which proponents routinely cite to be a clear majority of Americans.

According to the Gallup Organization, the percentage of Americans agreeing with the "pro-choice" label has diminished since March 1996. A poll in early October 2000 found a nearly even split, with 47 percent calling themselves supporters of abortion rights and 45 percent abortion opponents.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/nation/855082

Kaylara

[Dextra]

This is just one opinion of many, I'm sure. You can take it or leave it.

I am pro-choice, but to a certain extent. Allow me to explain. I believe a woman has the right to choose if she wants to abort a pregnancy. I, however, have not, nor would ever have one. It's a different circumstance for every woman and she should be allowed to decide whether or not she wants the child or not.

However, late-term abortion is a practice that sickens me. I watched a day-long debate on CSPAN last year on this very topic. There is a difference between a fetus and a child, and the victims in a late term abortion are CHILDREN. I heard it called partial-birth abortion. This is because the child is brought through the birth canal in a breech position. While the child's head is still inside the womb, a syringe is shoved into the base of the skull, and brain fluid and tissue are extracted, making it easier to remove the head. This sickens me!

And there was testimony from nurses who had assisted in these proceedures that said that sometimes the mother would lie about how far along she was, or the doctors themselves would fix the charts to show that the mother was at the legal stage of pregnancy for this proceedure. One nurse said that she had been witness to two seperate proceedures of this type. In the first case, the mother actually went into labor and gave birth to a healthy 7 lb girl. It was later determined that the mother was 35 weeks pregnant, which was too far along for the abortion. The doctor had put on the chart that she was 22 weeks. In the other case, the nurse said that the child was born before the "brain sucking", but was extremley tiny, maybe a pound and a half. She said that she held and rocked the baby and sang to it until it stopped breathing, about an hour after it's birth.
I'm not sure how many weeks pregnant a woman has to be before an abortion is considered a late-term abortion, and I'm not sure what the limit is. But to me, this is sick.

I thnk that if a woman wants to end a pregnancy, she should do it as soon as she realizes she's pregnant. She shouldn't sit around and be pregnant for 6 or 7 months and then just decide she doesn't want to be pregnant anymore. If you get that far along and you don't want the kid, give it up for adoption. There are so many people in the world that can't have their own.

I'm sorry to get off on a rant like this. I have always been pro-choice, and I will continue to be, to an extent. But I look at my kids sometimes and I think about when I found out I was pregnant. The thought of having an abortion crossed my mind because I wasn't in a good place in life to be having kids. But I didn't and that was my choice. And I look at my kids now, and I know that they are blessings from the Goddess. They have given my life meaning and given me something to build my life around, because before they came along, I had no direction in life.

To put my rant simply: I am pro-choice. In my book, RU486 is ok. Abortions up to 16 weeks are ok. Late-term and partial-birth abortions are not. I have seen what a child looks like when it's born at 20 weeks. I had a miscarriage 3 years ago and my son did not survive. When I saw him, that was not a fetus. That was my son. No one could tell me any different.

Ok, I'm done ranting. I'm off to cry now.....

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Dextra
I thnk that if a woman wants to end a pregnancy, she should do it as soon as she realizes she's pregnant. She shouldn't sit around and be pregnant for 6 or 7 months and then just decide she doesn't want to be pregnant anymore. If you get that far along and you don't want the kid, give it up for adoption. There are so many people in the world that can't have their own.


Right, BUT ... Most late-term abortions are done for medical reasons; ie, the health of the mother or the child, or both. For some reason, this big of "news", "knowledge", "information" doesn't seem to be passed along to the "general public". *grumble*

I know something else, too. If Dubya keeps on like this, there's going to be another Civil War, and it's not going to be pretty. :(

[Kaylara]

I was thinking the same thing Mairwen.

Kaylara

[Niamh]

Abortion is a very personal subject as well as political. Thanks, Dextra, for giving your thoughts, emotions and opinions. THey are valued, and I know that it isn't always easy to contribute!
I am pro choice. Would I have an abortion? I honestly don't know. I don't think I would know until I was in the position to make such a decision. I have thought about it, but it depends on the circumstances and my emotions, where I am in life, etc.
I agree that the thought of late-term abortions are scary, not to mention sick. At that point, adoption is the answer. At least it would be for me! Yes, abortion is a tough decision, and it isn't something decided over night. But 6 or 7 months is a little much in my book.
I have a friend who is militantly pro life. I respect her thoughts and opinions. The problem is, she doesn't respect mine. She doesn't want to allow me to think the way I do about abortion. It's hard to talk to her about it. I point out that I see where she is coming from, why she feels that way, etc. But she can scream and yell at me if she is in the right mood.
Like I said, it's so much more than politics.

[Dextra]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Right, BUT ... Most late-term abortions are done for medical reasons; ie, the health of the mother or the child, or both. For some reason, this big of "news", "knowledge", "information" doesn't seem to be passed along to the "general public". *grumble*



The abortions that are performed for medical purposes such as the risk to the mother, child, or both I don't have a problem with. I just have a problem with those who CHOOSE to have an abortion that late in pregnancy. There's really no call for it, especially when there are options such as adoption out there.

Just wanted to clear that up. ;)

[Niamh]

It's too bad the public is generally mal informed. I think Mairwen and I must have posted simultaneoulsy, because I didn't see yours before posting. I didn't even stop to think about the late term abortions performed for the safety of the mother or child. Thanks for reminding me!

[LaDaya]

Well... I know... I just had to add my opinions. Abortion is a very touchy subject. When I was a xtian, I was extremely pro-life. After I left the church and became pagan, I altered my views. I don't think I could ever have an abortion but I believe in the first trimester should be the time to make that kind of a choice except for medical reasons. I believe past the first trimester the fetus is fully developed and almost ready to live outside it's mother. This is just my opinion and I know there are plenty of people that disagree with me. I am pro-choice in the early stages of pregancy but once you get to the point where you can give birth to this child and give it up for adoption I think it is wrong morally to kill him or her. Okay... I'll shut up now...

[rantnraven]

I think the choice should have been made before the "throes'-of-passion" had begun. Once you make THAT commitment, the commitment has been made - period!

Thought I would throw a male opinion in here *shrugs*

RnR

[Lady Tana]

I agree with all of you on the position of the abortions in the early stages of the pregnancy. I am very pro-choice on that.
About 7 years ago Screamin Eagle and I found out that I was pregnant and we were both very excited about it, as the pregnancy progressed I was having alot of complications... cramping spotting and such... so i went to the er where they gave me an ultrasound to check that everything was ok. It was there they told me that the placenta was tearing away from the walls of my uterus and that was what was causing the symptoms.
They also had a councelor come in to talk with me. The problem was that since I was only 2 and a half months along and it was already tearing so drastically, they wanted to inform me that there was a very very high chance that IF i carried the baby to term and delivered that more than likely he/she would have some sort of physical problems perhaps even brain damage. They told me that it was ultimately our choice but we should think about it and decide what we wanted to do, try to carry to term or have a DNC.
We went home and discussed every little bit of this new information we had been given. As much as we loved our child, I couldnt knowingly bring a baby into the world that had severe problems and would probably be dependent on other people to take care of her for her whole life. Nor could i imagine trying to carry her to term to only loose her in another few months or so.
So i made one of the hardest decisions that i ever had to make in my life and opted for the DNC.

In a situation such as this... an abortion to me is acceptable.. i still have problems with the women that use it as a form of birth control and the idea of the partial-birth abortions sicken me to no end.

and i agree with Mari.. there's going to be another Civil War if he dosent knock it off!!

~LT

[Earth Walker]

With the world's population far beyond normal
sustainable limits, and the steady growth of
same, people really need to seriously start thinking
about what sex education means, and make
population control a priority.
The Goddess is not happy, with 100 species
becoming extinct every day, the destruction of the
Mother Earth for quick short-time profits.
If humans continue to keep on with overpopulation,
and continuing to destroy agricultural lands, wildlife
and their habitat, we will destroy ourselves.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DUBYA SAYS:

Ah ain't no bigot, ah hates everbody equally.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Dextra]

Lady Tana, thank you for sharing your story. That is a hard thing to go through. When I lost my son, I had gone to the doctor because I just felt like something was wrong. The doctor grumbled something about "you women come running over here everytime you get a tickle", while he was preparing to do an ultrasound. When he got the image up on the screen, the baby didn't have a heartbeat. He must have felt like a real jackass, because he just said he was sorry and walked out of the room. He had his nurse explain to me that they could either do a DNC or just see if my body expelled it naturally. This was on a Thursday. They told me to come in Monday and they would do the DNC if I hadn't gone into labor before then. As luck would have it, Sunday night I went into labor and gave birth to my dead son, Lucas, at the hospital. The hospital staff didn't want me to see my son, they just wanted to send him off for tests to see what might have went wrong. But I insisted. It was not at all a pretty sight. He was so tiny I could have held him in one hand, and as weird as it seems, he looked like he had been relieved of some great pain.
The part that really killed me is when I had to sign the death certificate. (In this state, if an unborn child is miscarried after 16 weeks, a death certificate is required). What hurt the most is that the cause of death was listed as "abortion". They said that a miscarriage is always listed that way. I had to do that and fill out the birth certificate at the same time.
Don't mean to keep going on about this, I guess I just needed to purge some of this out of my system as this has always been a touchy subject to me.

[rantnraven]

Dextra, I am so sorry for your loss. Your story touched my heart so deeply that tears are running down my face as I write.

Sometimes we have to take the dirt road. It's tougher but, it's there. The dirt road is half the distance but, twice as long. If you can do that, then you can do anything.

By The Goddess.

-Thoma

[bluecat]

Oh, Boy ... here goes.

Abortion is a subject that I try to avoid like a loathesome disease, but when (and I don't mean "if") it comes up on a list I wade in there with my best smile and wet suit.

First of all, there should be some sort of forethought of responsibility beforehand. Babys are not brought by the stork, nor are they found in a cabbage patch (although I can think of a few cabbage heads). If the mother choses to have an abortion, and it is not late term, then it is her business because it is her body. It really sickens me to see all of these children born into families that don't oro can't take care of them. I know this from personal experience. I was an unwanted child, after I was born I was turned over to my sister to raise ... it caused quite a bit of animosity on my father's side of the family towards my mother and to this day, even though I love my mother, there is still the knowledge of that lurking in the back of my head.

I think that birth control should be proactive and not reactive. I have no problem with mothers to be who are vicitims of rape or incest, but I do have a slight tinge with the mother who simply doesn't want a child yet and decides to get rid of it. Although she has already amde the decision not to love it and so many mothers do not return from that, this is not to say that some do love the child after it has been born.

Bottom line for me is: It's the woman's choice, just make sure that if it is one of these late term things there is a GENUINE medical need for this.

This Violence against the unborn thing is just one of the many cracks in the glass of freedom. I would like to refer everyone to a book called A Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. I think that book is quite prophetic.

Please understand that because I am pro-choice does not mean I am pro-abortion or I am anti-child. This is just a hard thing for me. I learned that I was not exactly a "welcome" addition to my family; I was not allowed to have children because of the ravages of a high fever when I was 17 and my ex-wife had sever endometriosis and had to have a hysterectomy (sp?) shortly after we were married. I hardly feel qualified to answer or respond to this because of these factors, but to keep quiet would be wrong also.

Dextra, my heart goes to you and to the others that have had your pain.

Sorry for rambling.

BlueCat

[Aventurine]

A slight twist on the classic saying: I might not agree with all the reasons of others for having abortions, but I'll defend their right to have them.

- Aventurine

[Carmelo]

Me, I'm Pro-Stay the aych ee double hockey sticks out of it!

I used to be Pro-Choice, then Anti-Abortion. I still hold values to them both. Here's why:

I cannot make somebody do something they will not do.

Yup, that's about the size of it!

My Pro-Choice part says that it is the woman's body. The Anti-Abortion says that they shouldn't do it on a whim. I've watched this over the course of the years turn into nothing but a way for politicians to win votes. Because that is their bottom line: to get votes. They will always appeal to public interests while readying theirselves to stab us in the back. (Why I usually don't vote)

But, when I received information on Partial-Birth Abortions in the mail one day, I became incensed with anger and then ran to hug the porcelain god. To think that one man had the power to pass a bill that allowed the senseless butchering of a HUMAN BEING sickened me for days. After I got over that initial shock, I wrote Billy Boy a letter; not that it would, or did, any good because the fact remained that people could do this of their own whims.

Now, they want to charge the mothers who have this done with murder. Well, what about the doctors who perform this procedure. I mean, come on, ending a human life just because the law says that it can be done at seven months. Who do they think they are? We put away murderers everyday, but they don't have to see the inside of a prison cell because they're covered by law. I'm sorry, but they took the choice away from that human. They should burn in their own hell or whatever. Here's an idea: Prepping for surgery, doctor. The patient is one of those sickening murderers. Nurse, don't use anesthesia. Scalpel. Vacuum. SUCK!

But, that's what I think should be done to them.

When I found this out, there did manage to be a good side. I hugged my daughter tighter than I ever did and told her no harm would come to her as long as I was alive. Of course, she was barely two and didn't understand a word I said...but she knew that daddy genuinely loved her. And when the birth of my son arrived...elation to the nth degree.

So to say that it's okay to take a baby out of this world just because it is governed by law, is the most indecent thing you can do against humanity in my book. It makes me wonder why I ever wanted to stay in this Godforsaken country anyway. Innocent blood shed for their freedoms is overlooked and they couldn't give a damn about what the public wants.

Who knows, maybe the child they kill could be the next hero, or firefighter, or pagan, or just all around good hearted person.

That's my rant. Sorry it's so long and for any profanity I may have used.

[sherry]

Well here it goes!! As a woman that would have done anything to have a child, I don't understand .
As a nurse I could NEVER work in a place that gives a person the right to kill her unborn child.

My opinion is that a woman NOT a doctor should have the right to a partial hysterectomy or to the surgery for sterilization of her choice without an argument from everyone. Only she knows how she truely feels about her life and even though she may not make her opinion a public one, it doesn't need to involve some medical personel telling her she isn't old enough to know what she wants. Why does a Doctor feel after looking at lab tests and her date of birth he knows her and her life better than she does??

I feel that it is an honor to be given the ability to create life. A GIFT from the GODS. I also do not understand why I never got the chance. What I did wrong to make my path so different.

You see at 18, I was married and after loosing my child at 8 weeks, later I ended up with a hysterectomy from ovarian cancer at a very young age. I guess I should be feeling lucky after all the women I have seen that loose their lives with this disease, But when I see on the news about babies in the garbage and left in the cold or beaten by someone they trusted it makes me sick!!

And don't think Adoption is much better! It is legalized baby selling. HE WITH THE MOST $$$$ WINS
I Have checked into adoption several times and they say that holding houses for children (orphanages) are overflowwing but what they don't tell you is the owners of these places like it that way. They get a check every month for the child and for you to get that child away from them you have costs and they call them court costs


In Ohio the court costs for adoptiion is $50.00 so tell me why the fees they charge is 15,000.00 I feel you are buying out that childs contract!! and another child will be raised in THE SYSTEM to grow up not knowing a loving home and family they just feel thrown away and will take a long time to find who they are if they ever do!!

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
Well,I'm a guy and pro-choice.Personally I think guys need to stay out of the debate though.If we had to have the babies there'd be no debate about abortions being legal.I don't think government needs to be in a woman's uterus.Just my opinion.
On the late term/partial birth abortions.Don't they make up like 1/100th of 1 percent of the total number of abortions performed annually?I know they're extremely rare.I think they're just being used as an emotional issue so the right can start putting more restrictions on women's right to choose.
Peace and Love
Rain BrightStar

[Niamh]

I know a few people who have gone through adoption... because they had the cash to do it. While I might seriously think about adoption as a choice, I don't feel it is fair, either. The system makes it nearly impossible for a loving couple to adopt a needy child. It's very upsetting. Most of the people I know who have adopted have gone out of the country to do it, because they couldn't get it done here.

[LaDaya]

Well, even that one percent is too many... Do you know how many abortions are done each year? Then tell me that one percent doesn't matter... Abortion is a very touchy subject and there is no real way to say what is going on at the time when that choice is/has to be made. My heart goes out to those that shared their stories and their pain. The only time I think abortion should be illegal is when the fetus is far enough developed that he/she can be put up for adoption into a good home and there is no physical health issues that would endanger the mother's life. But again.. It's only my opinion and to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Semele]

I have held in my hands some very small miracles that are literally too tiny and underdeveloped to be here. I have seen some pass on and even held one little girl as she went. But I have seen far more grow and develop into strong healthy gerber kiddos. Working in a neonatal intensive care unit has only strengthened my own feelings regarding abortion. I think every child deserves the right to be born and given their fair chance at life. I am not here to judge anyone who makes the choice to end a pregnancy for whatever reason. If I had a doctor tell me I needed to end a pregnancy to save my own life I can honestly say it would be tempting to tell him where to go. I have heard too many stories of this type.. and been there to care for the babies after they are born. Also been there to hand these babies to their mother the first time. There is never any guarantee on the outcome of these situations. I just don't think I could take the advice to end the life of my child.

I think that women who have abortions do suffer forever because of that decision. It is very hard to get on with your life after something so painful. My heart goes out to each and every woman who has ever had to deal with something like this. Dextra, sorry about your loss. The term abortion is very common in the medical field. There are various types... spontaneous, elective, threatened. All miscarriages are termed spontaneous abortions. When I was 4 months pregnant with our son I had some bleeding..a lot but no pain. In the emergency room they termed it a threatened abortion but everything was fine with the pregnancy. They chalked it up to a bad UTI. As a nurse I know the symptoms of a UTI and I had none. I was haunted by the term threatened abortion and even more so by the unexplained bleeding. It was only after my son was born that we discovered he had an indetical twin that was partially reabsorbed into the placenta. I know that that is what happened when I began to bleed. It was hard to deal with but I didn't really grieve at first because our son had some problems, a heart defect, that we were too focused on to even consider anything else. About two months later I was watching oprah and they did a show about multiple births and I cried through the whole thing.

Semele

[Niamh]

Semele,
That must have been difficult for you. My sister in law is the surviving twin if a similar situation, and she thinks about it all the time. Her mother still has some trouble discussing it.

To change my tone completely...
Has anyone here read "Cider House Rules" by John Irving?

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
That's 1/100th of 1 percent,not 1 percent that are "partial birth" abortions.A couple of years ago the total number was 23.I've seen numbers that went as high as 150 for 1998 but the numbers seemed unreliable.The medical community can't seem to define what a "partial birth" abortion actually is,I don't think they use that term.It's a term coined by Newt and the boys back in 95.The biggest part of them are medical emergencies.I still think the term is a catch phrase for the right wing,a bogeyman so to speak.The rich will wind up having access,the poor will just have more children.Just my opinion.
I don't think abortion should be a primary form of birth control.Of course,the right wing doesn't want condoms available nor do they want teens to be educated on the subject of birth control.In fact,one of their primary targets in the judicial arena to overturn Roe is a case called Griswold v Connecticut from 1961 in which the US Supreme Court overturned laws that made contraception illegal.Condoms,IUDs,sponges etc were illegal under these laws.The court decided that reproduction came under the right of privacy.This eventually came out in Roe v Wade as a right of a woman to choose to end a pregnancy.They used the trimester approach in Roe.The 1st 3 months a woman may choose to end a pregnancy.3-6 months some restrictions could apply.6 months on and there should be a pretty darn good reason as the fetus is viable,could live outside the womb.I think this is still a workable doctrine.But that's just an opinion.
No,I haven't read the book,"The Cider House Rules".I did see the movie last year.I really liked it.I'm sure the book is better.It usually is.
Peace and Love
Rain BrightStar

[Amora]

In my personal opinion I am pro choice but not so for late term abortions. It amazes me that over the years I have heard stories of pro-choice people killing the doctors that perform abortions...isn't that taking a life as well?? I could go on and on about this but i'm going to leave it at that. Some people are seriously ill.

[Yvonne Belisle]

2 of my 4 children are the product of rape by my exhusband. The child that I hade a 24 week abortion from was too. That child was aborted because i had been pregnant 6 times in 4 years plus i was on birth control pills and got chicken pox. I was told that the child would have many problems if he lived which wasn't likely and my odds for survival were less than 5%. I was told to abort at 18 weeks but didn't until I got the chicken pox. That CHOICE was mine to make and was the hardest choice I have ever made. I have always been prochoice antiabortion and no that is not a conflict. I don't believe anyone has the right to determine what someone else needs to go through but I think education is the answer. If more people understood all of thier options from before pregnancy prhaps there would be less need for some people to get abortions. I am low income and one question I hear when I have asked for help is "if you couldn't afford them why did you have them". The answer is simple I got pregnant. I have found that for me birth control pills are ineffective, I'm overweight so norplant is out it doesn't work well if you are fat, iud's are out if there is a family history of cervicl or uterin cancer and I'm allergic to spermicide. My ex would only use plastic if I was awake. If I was up for days with a teething child when I passed out from exahstion I was far game. I tried the shots but after bleeding for 3 months streight was told I could not get them again. I am not the only person like this out there! If abortions are further restricted then by the time you can prove there is a reason you will be past the acceptable time. That is something that you may want to point out the next time someone says restrictions would be good. As for the anti people when was the last time they put their wallet in the fray ie. paid for medical care, counciling for rape victims that can't seperate the child from the act that made it, food for a family ect.... the costs are endless and adoption isn't always the answer. There are lots of people that want babies but how about the older kids who get shuffled around learning that they aren't loved. There is no perfect answer. What needs to be found is the middle ground. I'm too wounded by this entire topic so if I sound upset it's because I am. Sorry

[bluecat]

You have nothing to apologize for Yvonne ... I don't see a need to say that you are Sorry.

HUGS

Steve

[Yvonne Belisle]

Thank-you Bluecat this is an issue that has been with me for 9 years now and the wound still hurts as much today as it did then. Sometimes counciling doesn't work. There will always be the question in my mind because there was a chance I could have lived and that my son could have and would have been fine. Then there is the hard knowledge that my daughter who turn 10 this May almost killed me she was 10lb 1 oz and got stuck most of the way out with no room for forsepts. Yes she was an OUCH!!!! now she is this little tiny thing. I know that since this issue hits most people very strongly one way or the other we tend to react to it without remembering that these women are real with issues we can't even begin to know. I know that I wanted to beat the anti people that had huge posters on the entry to Fiesta Island here in California on a Saturday. There were small children being shown these pictures of an aborted baby and they didn't care. My children had nightmares from that and I'm sure they weren't alone. Then too we need to remember how many women and girls die each year because they were afraid to go to a clinic to have an abortion so they try on their own or they go to someone dishonest. They are called backstreet abortions and if abortions become harder to get the numbers will increase. I don't know about anyone else but I have a daughter and the idea that she could seek one in 10 years is terrifying. The idea that if she needed one she may have to have a backstreet abortion is even more terrifying. The whole issue is enough to give a sane person nightmares. Polititans need to leave well enough alone.

[Kaylara]

I am pro-choice, but for myself, I could not have an abortion. That's just me. I have seen people go through miscarriages and abortions, and know that I would never be able to forgive myself. I know how much I love kids, and how much I am looking forward to having my own. Miscarriages run in my family, my both of my grandmothers have had them, my mother had one, and my aunt had several. My aunt was the luckiest (if it could be said in reference to this subject) as her miscarriages were early in the term. My mother and grandmothers all had full term miscarriages. I see what it does to a person. I couldn't do it. But I will fight tooth and nail for the right of other women to have and abortion.
I am kinda like Yvonne, birthcontrol doesn't work for me, I wind up bleeding constantly. I am too young for IUD's and I would not react well with the shot. But even still, abortion is not an option for me, and even if it threatened my own life, I would have a hard time having an abortion.

Just me.

Kaylara

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by rantnraven
I think the choice should have been made before the "throes'-of-passion" had begun. Once you make THAT commitment, the commitment has been made - period! Thought I would throw a male opinion in here *shrugs* RnR

And that's a choice a couple should make together. The male is just as responsible as the female. It's never "just" the woman's fault. Or rarely, anyway. It takes two to make three.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by sherry
My opinion is that a woman NOT a doctor should have the right to a partial hysterectomy or to the surgery for sterilization of her choice without an argument from everyone. Only she knows how she truely feels about her life and even though she may not make her opinion a public one, it doesn't need to involve some medical personel telling her she isn't old enough to know what she wants.

Right on the money. I had to beg, borrow and plead to have my tubes tied after the birth of my second child 10 years ago. I was 22, but all they could see was a woman who was "very young". What if I got divorced and met someone else who wanted children? What if I decided on down the road to stay married and we wanted more children?

Give me a break.

I can't remember all the excuses and reasons and BS they fed me to try to get me to change my mind. As it was, the baby was born via c-section, but they made me come back two months later for the tubal ~ "in case" I changed my mind. *eye rollage*


I feel that it is an honor to be given the ability to create life. A GIFT from the GODS.

I feel that, too. But I also feel that some people truly are natural born mothers, and that some people should never have children because they don't have the ... "knack?" "gene?" "ability?" ??? ... for it.


And don't think Adoption is much better! It is legalized baby selling. HE WITH THE MOST $$$$ WINS


Not always. Because of circumstance, my ex-husband received custody of our two boys ~ and I allowed his new wife to adopt them. They're happy, they're healthy, they're smart, they're on basketball teams, they stay out of trouble (well, most as they can being mine!). They have a much better life than I ever did ~ and a much better life than what I could have ever offered them.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
I tried the shots but after bleeding for 3 months streight was told I could not get them again. I am not the only person like this out there!

You're right, you're not alone. That's me. I'm not in any way, shape or form a candidate for birth control. And my doctors tried to talk me out of having a tubal? :(

[Acie]

This subject is probably one of the hardest subjects there is for me. Forgive me if I appear closed minded on this but I truly believe that abortions should only be performed in the case of emergencies. If carrying the child risks the life of the mother or something along those lines, then abortion may be required. If the decision is made for any other reason then it sickens me. I will not impose my beliefs on others and expect them to agree but I do feel that people ( both men and women ) should be more responsble. To murder* a child* because you don't want to use protection is a horrible an extremely selfish reason to do so. So I believe.......
Create a good day and peace be yours!

p/s If birth control is something that you just can't deal with, then pull out before you finish. I think my point is understood here, right?

[sisba]

Hi Guys,

I think this is a very controversial topic, many people have different views. I totally understand the reasonign behind not having abortions, but what about the very young who were too stupid to realise that they were capable of getting pregnant, are left on their own by their disappearing boyfriends who once loved them so much...until the inevitable happens?

I have mixed views on this, no, I don't agree with abortions, as long as the baby is going to be brought into a happy and loving environment, no an abusive or can't-afford-to-buy-you-shoes-dear type place.

I believe pregnancy is meant to be, the baby will be born if it is fate.

As in relation to contraception, try using the pill, it is very effective.

[Dextra]

Originally posted by sisba
but what about the very young who were too stupid to realise that they were capable of getting pregnant, are left on their own by their disappearing boyfriends who once loved them so much...until the inevitable happens?



As in relation to contraception, try using the pill, it is very effective.

I am not in favor of teen pregnancies myself, but if you are going to do the deed then you should at least try to be responsible or face the consequences. There is too much sex education in this country that no one should NOT know what a condom is. My mother was 15 when I was born, and there were people (in my own family no less) that were pushing her to have an abortion. If she had done that, I wouldn't be here. Even though she married my father, he left the day after their wedding and they were divorced before I was 2. There's a littel thing called responsibility that needs to be taken into consideration here.

And as far as the pill goes, I, along with a lot of other people, aren't able to take it. I'm allergic, and some people simply can't handle any form of birth control. Fortunately, I found that the depo-provera shot happens to work for me.

[Semele]

This topic is always heated and very passionate. It is great that we can all share our views without offending or taking offense from others. I respect what everyone has said and it just makes the point stronger that this is not a black or white issue.

Yvonne I am sorry that you had to lose your son at 24 weeks. How long ago was this? Just curious because they have continuously raised the age limit for viable births. Several years back if a woman was under 34 weeks pregnant, the NICU team wouldn't even attend the birth because there was no way to save these little ones. They had to just wait for the babies to die, no rescussitation given. Sometimes they made it anyway. With all the advances in medicine that limit, for our hospital anyway, is 25 weeks. We have had many, many 25 weekers come into the unit and go home .... several months down the road. I wonder if in your case there may have been an opportunity to wait a couple more weeks and then take the baby.

I am not saying that to hurt you, please don't think that. I just think that with more and more advances in medicine, these situations that were hopeless before may be slowly eliminated. Of course having such a premie is stressful and expensive and takes its toll on families. Just a few thoughts.

Semele

[sisba]

Hi,

I am so sorry to hear someone has lost a baby, it must be a really hard time in your life.

I give you all my spiritual support.

I totally relate to your mother falling pregnant at 15, my mother did too at 16, and if she didn't I would not have my wonderful brother. It seems like we have simularities. I think this is a very hot topic, and exactly right there is no black and white, everyone has their reasons.

[rantnraven]

Thank you for the spiritual support. Given the thread, much will be needed.

To all of you, Blessed are those who have lost, who have cherished and who have lost and cherished.

The Goddess Be,

-Thoma

[Yvonne Belisle]

It was done 8 years ago. As for pulling out PLEASE get more information! Men leak and sperm are in that leakage it only takes one. Pulling out is not an effective form of birth control. You can even get pregnant during heavy petting if he ejaculates too close to the right path. My Mother works at Rutgers University it has always shocked me about the misconseptions that exist in sex ed. I have seen college kids that truely did not know where babies came from and I have heard the myth "if he just pulls out I can't get pregnant" too many times. I want you to know that this myth is very accepted don't take my word for it talk to your Doctor. I have been taught about birth control since I was very young because I use to help set up the labs for it so I have more information than the average. Many people are unaware that pulling out is useless and that if you are obese Norplant may as well not be in. I don't want to sound as if I am a know it all but it scares me that people are not passing out this information and then wondering why accidents happen. The schools programs for sex ed need to be more in depth. I'm surprised with the number of nurses we have in this group no one has said anything sooner. I guess they missed it. There are new developements out there but they are slow in coming to the publics attention. Be safe everyone but HAVE FUN doing it. :D Sorry this sounds like a lecture I tried to reword it but the information was lost.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
.... The schools programs for sex ed need to be more in depth. I'm surprised with the number of nurses we have in this group no one has said anything sooner. I guess they missed it. There are new developements out there but they are slow in coming to the publics attention. Be safe everyone but HAVE FUN doing it. :D Sorry this sounds like a lecture I tried to reword it but the information was lost.

Yvonne,

I am always amazed at the state of Sex Education (or lack of it) in our Schools. It has always bothered me that if little Johnny or Suzie (and this extends all the way thru High School, mind you) goes home and tells mommy and daddy they are in Sex Ed classes or there was teaching about Sex in the school the next thing you know some local group is berating the schools. These are the same parents who won't talk to their children about sex because it's "dirty" and just should not be discussed. They sure don't want some Phys. Ed. teacher (the person usually "shackled" with teaching sex ed.) telling their children about sex. The only acceptable thing when I was in school were the horror films that they had about VD. Well, kiddies, to paraphrase an old Bette Midler joke about sex and disease nowadays, "If you **** the wrong person, your arm falls off and you die."

I have a nurse friend whose daughter is in school and the daughter knows more about sex than they are ever teaching at school. Now this friend is an exception to the rule here. Most kids aren't told anything at home and the schools are tied down to what they can tell them except to abstain (I live in a big time Baptist town); but abstain from what? You get children of that age with all of those raging hormones together and you have a walking time bomb. They don't know what is going on, they are hot like a bunch of cats (I should know, being around cats.) and so many of them just succumb to the "temptation" and wind up "in trouble." Some people still don't use the "P" word.

The kids who are properly taught about sex are thought of as being dirty or promiscuous, but they are usually the ones who don't do it, because of the fear of STD's or if they do they act responsibly and use a condom. My friend's daughter carries condoms, not because she is promiscuous, but because if it does get to that point at least ONE of them will have condoms!!!!

I get a real kick out of all of the church groups taking credit for what is advertised as the new abstainance movement among kids, :smash: it makes me laugh in a very sad way. Many of the ones who aren't having sex are doing it because they don't want to die, not because it's the right thing to do; and the many of the kids who are having sex are using a condom!

There are also the stats that show a great number of these kids aren't using any protection because they believe nothing will happen. That happens to "other people" not me, "I'm invincible," "Jesus won't let me get pregnant." Well it seems like there is an still an awful lot of immaculate conception going on :smash: .

I could go on and on about this. I will just end in a few words to the young folks on this board. Please get educated about this, I'm not assuming you are stupid or don't know, just make sure you do know what your getting into. And Please, Please, Please, if you do have sex use some protection, specifically a condom. Sex should be a wonderful and intimate thing between two people, not something that you may feel sorry for later.

Thank You, I have been on THIS poor old Soap Box so many times it is beginning to feel rickety. I know I will be on it again, so I had better get some nails and make sure it's okay.

Have a nice cool glass of lemonade, it's on the house.

BlueCat

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by sisba
As in relation to contraception, try using the pill, it is very effective.

Sounds like a plan, if that's what works for you. However, ths is not a perfect world. It's a world where some women exist who are unable to take/use any type of birth control whatsoever. Our only option is tubal ligation ~ and that comes only with a fight with the OB-GYN, if then.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by bluecat
And Please, Please, Please, if you do have sex use some protection, specifically a condom.

But also please remember that condoms are NOT fail-safe. They rip, they tear, they can be mis-used or mis-placed, they come off, etc etc etc. I'm 32-year-old living proof that a condom doesn't always protect against pregnancy. :D

And remember that there are people who can't use a latex condom ~ the best-bet against STDs, etc and so forth ~ so the only choice we're left with is lambskin, still and iffy situation, because they're near-impossible to find that don't include spermicide ~ something else that people like us react badly to.

(Sometimes I feel I was meant to be a nun)

[Kaylara]

Actually, the sponge was the most effective method of birth control, that is until the only company that made them, went out of business. (I hear that this method of birth control may be coming back though)

Kaylara

[Mairwen]

Not to sound like a problem child :D but that's something I couldn't use, either. LOL!

[bluecat]

Well, I just want them to be careful if they can't do otherwise ... and there are no guarantees in life, but there are also prudent measures ...

[Ozymandias]

Long ago I had a wife, our child died in her third month of pregnancy. The hospitol listed it as an abortion. This terribly upset me and it still hurts sometimes. I....I don't want to talk anymore about this. I'm sorry.

[Niamh]

They will be coming back out with a sponge. Also, Johson & Johnson has developed a birth control "patch" for women. It is being used in a few Western European countries, and working quite well. Of course, we know how long it takes the FDA to approve things for us...

[Witchbourne]

I think that if a woman wants to make an abortion it is
up to her and her man and no one else...

Blessed be*

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
I haven't been to this thread for a few days.
Pull out before you finish?Now that's ridiculous.I laughed pretty hard until I thought some people actually believe that would work.This is not an effective form of birth control!Using it makes about as much sense as "The Rhythm Method" the pope and Catholic church have been pushing all these years.
Has anyone heard about the male birth control pill?I'd be willing to try that.I always use condoms,although I've had women tell me that they didn't like them.It was frustrating,but I went home.My neighbor,on the other hand didn't and has a shiny new out of wedlock child with a woman he can't stand.No glove,no love.
There is also the vasectomy.I've never had children and might like to some day,so i haven't had one.A good friend did after his 4th child(all unplanned but loved)and said it wasn't so bad.My redneck Dad even had one back in the 60s and said he was really glad he did it,especially after looking at his sons.(:
Peace and Love
Rain BrightStar

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Witchbourne
I think that if a woman wants to make an abortion it is up to her and her man and no one else... Blessed be*

Not me. I think it should be left up to the woman. Period. I probably would think otherwise if the man was the one who actually had to carry and deliver children, but they don't. My body. Period. Nobody can tell me what I can, or cannot, do with it or to it. Period. :D

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
I'm with you Mairwen!I don't have to carry the child.I think it's her choice,which I'll support either way.I do think she should discuss it with her Doctor,but that's it.
Brightstar

[Mairwen]

*Bows to BrightStar*

[Witchbourne]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Not me. I think it should be left up to the woman. Period. I probably would think otherwise if the man was the one who actually had to carry and deliver children, but they don't. My body. Period. Nobody can tell me what I can, or cannot, do with it or to it. Period. :D


So if a man and woman who love eachoter have sex
with eachoter and the mans seed stuckes in her you
don't think that it is something both of them should
deside on.....then wheres the love????

But i could agree with you if there was no real love between them.....

BB

[Aurora]

Interesting topic we have chosen **smiles**
I am pro-choice and have been for 11 yrs now. Which isn't much since I've only lived 27 yrs. I have been in both shoes... getting pregnant at 15 I had the option of ending it and continueing my life like my parents thought I should. But at that time I decided I made the choice to lay down in that bed and knew the chances I was taken. Just this past year I had a similiar situation arise and this time I opted for the right that I was given.
I had debated back and forth and sat down and really thought about what I was going to do. Finally I followed through with my given right in this country to have an abortion. It was a difficult choice but would I change my decision in either case, No.
Do I think that anyone that opts for having an abortion in early pregnancy should be crucified because of their choice? No since in this country we have the right as a woman to choose what we do with our bodies.
I find it amusing since back in the witch hunting days of early years, the christians and everyone that thought themselves rightous would burn women, child and infants just because they believed them to be witches and now a days women are crucified because they chose to end the pregnancy.
As far as agreeing with late term abortion..... if I said that I didn't believe a woman should have the right to chose then I would be no better than the rightous ppl who crucify when for choosing the right to have an abortion.

Sorry for this being so long but just had to put in my 2cents =)

Here's a bumper sticker I have:
If men could get pregnant
ABORTION WOULD BE A SACRAMENT

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Witchbourne
But i could agree with you if there was no real love between them.....BB

My Body. My Choices. No Discussion.

[Witchbourne]

Originally posted by Mairwen


My Body. My Choices. No Discussion.


Choice whatever you like.....i never sayd you couldent....
i only pointed out how i look upon it.....

BB