101 Things I Like About Paganism

[fairielove]

101 Things I Like About Paganism

101. You can make your own religion
100. There are no inflexible rules
99. No ultimate evil
98. You can write your own rituals
97. We appreciate each other
96. Pagans know: To be alone is not always to be lonely
95. Acceptance of the unexplained rather than fear
94. Most of the negative things said about us aren't true
93. Some of the negative things are
92. Bowing to the masses gives you a heavy heart and a bad back
91. Paganism doesn't make you feel guilty
90. There are more Pagans in the world than you usually think
89. There is respect for otherwise ignored groups
88. Don't hurt anybody: do whatever you want
87. You know another Pagan usually before anything is said
86. No-one is better than anyone else
85. Pagans generally debate, not fight
84. Paganism accepts you no matter your sexual orientation
83. Paganism accepts you no matter your race
82. Paganism accepts you no matter what
81. There is an understanding of the personal need for growth
80. At last there is a warm place for all us geeks
79. Even Pagans aren't quite sure where our beliefs come from
78. If bad things happen, it might not be soley your fault
77. Pagans understand the importance of tolerance
76. Pagans understand that Respect is not debasement
75. True power comes from the love within
74. Celebrating by candlelight invokes a mystical atmosphere
73. Dancing to drums is instinctive
72. Symbolism speaks to the deeper parts of ourselves
71. I've never seen a Pagan base self-worth on a pair of jeans
70. No fear of an invisible enemy with a satirical streak
69. No one demands you give up your possessions
68. Paganism lets you be yourself, no matter what
67. Opening your eyes to a world you never realized was there
66. Connection to a higher force without losing yourself
65. Music speaks to the soul
64. Pagans are responsible people
63. We don't blame invisible entities for our problems
62. To the best of our ability, we control our own fate
61. Age is wisdom, not uselessness
60. No one is judging you
59. No one really expects you to wait until you're married
58. A strong woman is not a Bitch, she is a Woman
57. You don't have to believe words written 2k years ago
....under mysterious circumstances
56. It's easy to believe words you wrote yourself
55. You don't have to be beautiful to be worth something
54. You are beautiful
53. Pagans are generally well-read people
52. Paganism teaches you to trust yourself
51. The innocence of a child is valued for what it can teach us
50. Love everyone, unless they are bent on harm
49. The human body is beautiful; an instrument of pleasure
48. Dance expresses the Goddess in all of us
47. Pagans make up their own minds: no belief at par
46. Everything in nature is the manifestation of Deity
45. Self _expression is beautiful
44. Pagans know that anger is useful, not 'evil'
43. I've never seen a Pagan burn a book
42. Pagans take care of themselves
41. Pagans take care of others
40. No-one asks you to enslave yourself to a higher force
39. No-one tells you what to do at all
38. There are high expectations of Pagan behaviour
37. Pagans aren't afraid to cross the line in personal thought
36. Pagans understand the dangers of Church and State
35. Herbs and natural remedies are generally preferred
34. Admit it: it's a bit nice to know things that others don't
33. There is no Army of 'Pagan Soldiers'
32. Pagans have a small idea of what prejudice might be
31. Priests and Priestesses can marry
30. Rituals are beautiful and moving
29. We can help our gardens grow
28. There are powerful female role models
27. Chanting eases the heart
26. You don't have to 'Worship' as in debasing yourself
25. Women's issues are treated as valid and equal
24. You'll never see a Pagan hassling non-Pagans to join
23. We are moved by deep emotion to care for others
22. It takes a lot of knowledge to be Pagan
21. The trees speak to us in the wind
20. Magick is practical and real
19. You can mix-and-match religions to reflect yourself
18. You don't fall asleep during ritual
17. You can believe in whatever deity you choose
16. Access to the Priesthood open to all
15. You can believe whatever you want to
14. You don't have to 'obey your husband'
13. You don't have to vent your steamy tales to a jealous man.
12. Pagans are Socially conscious
11. Celebrating outside is almost painfully beautiful
10. No Hierarchy
9. Pagans don't demand to be right
8. No Prostheletizing
7. Balance b/w Masculine and Feminine
6. Rituals are practical and apply to real life
5. I can feel the Goddess in everything I do
4. Pagans love the Earth
3. Women are Fully Equal with Men
2. Open-mindedness

And the #1 reason I love Paganism

1. You're Allowed to Have Sex!
I got this in an email this morning. I thought it was cute and ya'll would like it.
Blessed Be,
fairielove

[Dragonladyofwater]

102. My Pagan Based business rerquires me to occasionally wear fairy wings to work.

:)

[Cassie]

I guess a few of the points could be debated; as you can see in some of the threads here at MW!
However, in general it is a nice summery of why it sometimes feels so wonderful to be pagan!
I wonder if I should adopt Dragonladyofwater's rule 102 the next time I have to go and teach english to a group of highly stressed buisinessmen?? :lol:

[Xentor]

101. You can make your own religion - you can make your own path... but it isn't really a religion with no-one following it...

100. There are no inflexible rules - that depends on whether one follows a strict path or not...

99. No ultimate evil - really? Some things are quite evil.

98. You can write your own rituals - I don't like rituals.

97. We appreciate each other - No I don't. I hate a lot of people.

96. Pagans know: To be alone is not always to be lonely - You don't have to know this to be a pagan.

95. Acceptance of the unexplained rather than fear - Schizophrenics accepted... I reject your reality and substitute my own.

94. Most of the negative things said about us aren't true - Yes they are.

93. Some of the negative things are - So you do eat babies and sacrifice virgins?

92. Bowing to the masses gives you a heavy heart and a bad back - Have you seen how commercial Raven Silverwolf's books have become lately?

91. Paganism doesn't make you feel guilty - Being an asshole makes one feel guilty. Pagans just aren't afraid of saying it.

90. There are more pagans in the world than you usually think - I think a lot.

89. There is respect for otherwise ignored groups - There is fundamentalism in every religion, including paganism.

88. Don't hurt anybody: do whatever you want - Oh I'll hurt you if needed. What if I really want to hurt you?

87. You know another pagan usually before anything is said - Ooh, another looney.

86. No-one is better than anyone else - Yes I am.

85. Pagans generally debate, not fight - Wanna bet? Have you seen the political forum lately?

84. Paganism accepts you no matter your sexual orientation - A great majority of pagans has a big problem with anything outside of man-on-top - woman-on-bottom. You're a bigot no matter your religion.

83. Paganism accepts you no matter your race - You don't have to be pagan to be racist.

82. Paganism accepts you no matter what - Nope, I for instance don't accept racists.

81. There is an understanding of the personal need for growth - Some people are perfectly OK with being right where they are and not going anywhere.

80. At last there is a warm place for all us geeks - With the rest of the geeks in the nuthouse.

79. Even pagans aren't quite sure where our beliefs come from - Quite a few of us know exactly where it comes from. I for instance created my own.

78. If bad things happen, it might not be soley your fault - That's right, Jesus saves you!

77. Pagans understand the importance of tolerance - I don't tolerate a lot of these statements.

76. Pagans understand that Respect is not debasement - Some of us understand that debasement sometimes is needed to gain any respect.

75. True power comes from the love within - True power comes from the one yielding the baseball bat.

74. Celebrating by candlelight invokes a mystical atmosphere - and intoxication.

73. Dancing to drums is instinctive - and silly.

72. Symbolism speaks to the deeper parts of ourselves - Symbolism speaks to most, pagan or not.

71. I've never seen a pagan base self-worth on a pair of jeans - Did you see our Health and Beauty forum lately? Pagan to have problems with self-worth too.

70. No fear of an invisible enemy with a satirical streak - Ghosts, demons, elementals, fairies, elves, yard gnomes, dragons...

69. No one demands you give up your possessions - You don't need to be in a cult to be pagan... but you can be.

68. Paganism lets you be yourself, no matter what - You can be yourself... over there, where you can't annoy me.

67. Opening your eyes to a world you never realized was there - The world's been here... but yeah, a lot of people never saw it. It doesn't take being pagan, though. Most Christians say the same about heaven.

66. Connection to a higher force without losing yourself - Not all Christians are possessed...

65. Music speaks to the soul - only in pagans?

64. Pagans are responsible people - No I'm not.

63. We don't blame invisible entities for our problems - Ghosts, demons, elementals, fairies, elves, yard gnomes, dragons, gods...

62. To the best of our ability, we control our own fate - Ghosts, demons, elementals, fairies, elves, yard gnomes, dragons, gods...

61. Age is wisdom, not uselessness - You don't have to be wise to be old.

60. No one is judging you - Yes I am.

59. No one really expects you to wait until you're married - For your first Sony?

58. A strong woman is not a Bitch, she is a Woman - And a Bitch, too.

57. You don't have to believe words written 2k years ago
....under mysterious circumstances - No, instead you believe Silver Ravenwolf...

56. It's easy to believe words you wrote yourself - Of course. What does have to do with Paganism?

55. You don't have to be beautiful to be worth something - You don't have to be worth something to be pagan.

54. You are beautiful - Some are very ugly.

53. Pagans are generally well-read people - Some are very ignorant. Ever seen our "New Pagans" section? People asking the same questions over and over again.

52. Paganism teaches you to trust yourself - We aren't a self-help clinic. Paganism doesn't teach. Pagans might. I personally teach skepticism.

51. The innocence of a child is valued for what it can teach us - to rant, to play with matches, to break your head on the corner of the table...

50. Love everyone, unless they are bent on harm - Love myself and them anyway, because they really are too stupid to know any better.

49. The human body is beautiful; an instrument of pleasure - and an instrument of pain to some.

48. Dance expresses the Goddess in all of us - Ooh, I feel my feminine side acting up. Down boy!

47. Pagans make up their own minds: no belief at par - We already went through this... dense! Pagans appreciate repetition?

46. Everything in nature is the manifestation of Deity - Everything is natural at some level, but I surely hope the nuclear bomb that hit Hiroshima wasn't an expression of Deity...

45. Self _expression is beautiful - Pagans appreciate repetition?

44. Pagans know that anger is useful, not 'evil' - Who doesn't?

43. I've never seen a pagan burn a book - Open your eyes to the world you didn't know existed...

42. Pagans take care of themselves - except for those deliberately taking advantage of wellfare.

41. Pagans take care of others - only if it betters me.

40. No-one asks you to enslave yourself to a higher force - Pagans appreciate repetition?

39. No-one tells you what to do at all - Pagans appreciate repetition?

38. There are high expectations of pagan behaviour - People generally expect you to be nuts anyway.

37. Pagans aren't afraid to cross the line in personal thought - Pagans appreciate repetition?

36. Pagans understand the dangers of Church and State - As do most semi-intelligents.

35. Herbs and natural remedies are generally preferred - Welcome to Europe!

34. Admit it: it's a bit nice to know things that others don't - Schyzophrenics accepted...

33. There is no Army of 'Pagan Soldiers' - Ever looked at the Asatru?

32. Pagans have a small idea of what prejudice might be - No, I know exactly what prejudice is. You are showing it towards paganism through every last one of these statements.

31. Priests and Priestesses can marry - So? They are allowed not to, too.

30. Rituals are beautiful and moving - Pagans appreciate repetition?

29. We can help our gardens grow - No I can't. I kill everything I touch.

28. There are powerful female role models - Virgin Mary, Mother Theresa?

27. Chanting eases the heart - New medicine?

26. You don't have to 'Worship' as in debasing yourself - Pagans appreciate repetition?

25. Women's issues are treated as valid and equal - Women have issues?

24. You'll never see a pagan hassling non-pagan to join - Pagans appreciate repetition?

23. We are moved by deep emotion to care for others - No I'm not. You don't know satanists, do you?

22. It takes a lot of knowledge to be Pagan - It generally only takes aversion from the three Abrahamic religions, and this list doesn't show a lot of knowledge...

21. The trees speak to us in the wind - That's the Ents...

20. Magick is practical and real - And written without the K. "Magick" is made up by Aleister Crowley.

19. You can mix-and-match religions to reflect yourself - Pagans appreciate repetition?

18. You don't fall asleep during ritual - Did you ever sit through a Thelemite circle opening?

17. You can believe in whatever deity you choose - Me! Me! Me!

16. Access to the Priesthood open to all - Pagans appreciate repetition?

15. You can believe whatever you want to - Pagans appreciate repetition?

14. You don't have to 'obey your husband' - Pagans appreciate repetition?

13. You don't have to vent your steamy tales to a jealous man. - Pagans appreciate repetition?

12. Pagans are Socially conscious - Pagans appreciate repetition?

11. Celebrating outside is almost painfully beautiful - Pagans appreciate repetition?

10. No Hierarchy - Priests are higher than non-priests... Wicca has a lot of initiate states, so does Free-Masonry, Thelema and a whole lot of other paths.

9. Pagans don't demand to be right - Yes I do.

8. No Prostheletizing - No proselytising either. Pagans appreciate repetition?

7. Balance b/w Masculine and Feminine - Pagans appreciate repetition?

6. Rituals are practical and apply to real life - Rituals are the opposite of practical.

5. I can feel the Goddess in everything I do - Schyzophrenics accepted.

4. Pagans love the Earth - Here, have dirt for breakfast.

3. Women are Fully Equal with Men - If you say it often enough, you might just start believing it.

2. Open-mindedness - Been in the political pagan forum lately?

And the #1 reason I love paganism

1. You're Allowed to Have Sex! - Nobody had sex before they became pagan... not the Christians, not the Islamics, not the Jews... that's why there's so many of them!

[Xentor]

The reason why I like paganism: I fit in.

[LostSheep]

1. You're Allowed to Have Sex! - Nobody had sex before they became pagan... not the Christians, not the Islamics, not the Jews... that's why there's so many of them!

Yes, but pagans aren't made to feel guilty about it... it's not just a faintly distasteful means to an end.

[Xentor]

Yes, but pagans aren't made to feel guilty about it... it's not just a faintly distasteful means to an end.

That's far more an American thing than it is non-pagan. In my continent, in my country, we don't have any inhibition.

[Renny]

My favorites are ...


101. You can make your own religion
100. There are no inflexible rules
98. You can write your own rituals
95. Acceptance of the unexplained rather than fear
91. Paganism doesn't make you feel guilty
86. No-one is better than anyone else
84. Paganism accepts you no matter your sexual orientation
83. Paganism accepts you no matter your race
82. Paganism accepts you no matter what
81. There is an understanding of the personal need for growth
74. Celebrating by candlelight invokes a mystical atmosphere
73. Dancing to drums is instinctive
72. Symbolism speaks to the deeper parts of ourselves
69. No one demands you give up your possessions
68. Paganism lets you be yourself, no matter what
67. Opening your eyes to a world you never realized was there
66. Connection to a higher force without losing yourself
63. We don't blame invisible entities for our problems
62. To the best of our ability, we control our own fate
61. Age is wisdom, not uselessness
59. No one really expects you to wait until you're married
56. It's easy to believe words you wrote yourself
55. You don't have to be beautiful to be worth something
52. Paganism teaches you to trust yourself
49. The human body is beautiful; an instrument of pleasure
35. Herbs and natural remedies are generally preferred
33. There is no Army of 'Pagan Soldiers'
30. Rituals are beautiful and moving
20. Magick is practical and real
19. You can mix-and-match religions to reflect yourself
18. You don't fall asleep during ritual
17. You can believe in whatever deity you choose
15. You can believe whatever you want to
14. You don't have to 'obey your husband'
10. No Hierarchy
3. Women are Fully Equal with Men


Some of them glorify pagans a bit too much, there are definitely bad apples out there... but it is cute ^_^

[fairielove]

The reason I posted this is because I thought that it was cute. It wasn't meant to offend anyone. I guess I'll keep my cute emails to myself from now on.
BB,

[Xentor]

Please keep the cuteness coming! Just apply some skepticism to everything you read. You definitely didn't offend me with this list. I find it most amusing.

[Qumran]

Please keep the cuteness coming! Just apply some skepticism to everything you read. You definitely didn't offend me with this list. I find it most amusing.

It it well to also remember that "I love" this or that;

1- Doesn't require that "love" to be based upon the truth, accuracy or even reality. Love can be and frequently IS entirely irrational.
2- Does not have to rise to your or anyone's standards of validity or acceptance.
3- What someone loves is an individual matter and does not have to agree with anyone else's concepts, faith, opinions or perceptions.

Personally, I did not see her post as a statement that required me to agree with it. It appeared to be one person's expression - an expression I am free to accept or reject.

On a side point, skepticism is a handy and valuable tool but it should not be used on everything in sight or indescriminantly. For example, a screwdriver was a wonderful invention, but it sucks at driving in nails.

Since you took exception to virtually every one of those points, I am very curious as to what YOU love about Paganism (If you are not Pagan, then you may, of course, choose to disregard the question :spinnysmi )

:chattin:

[Xentor]

<-- points to post #5

[Sun Sprite]

I didn't agree with everyone of them, but most of them certainly I do. Even the ones I don't completely agree with, I can understand the point of view.
Glad you posted this.

Glad i fit in somewhere!

[Dragonladyofwater]

I guess a few of the points could be debated; as you can see in some of the threads here at MW!
However, in general it is a nice summery of why it sometimes feels so wonderful to be pagan!
I wonder if I should adopt Dragonladyofwater's rule 102 the next time I have to go and teach english to a group of highly stressed buisinessmen?? :lol:

ROFL you can try! Might just shock them enough that they hear every word you say and walk away saying something like "Bob! Did you hear that fairy?! Enunciation and communication go hand in hand." _happydanc

[BabyBird]

Some of the points in the list glorify pagans (#53, 96, 97, 85, 83, 82, 77, 63, 42, 41, 23) , others demean non-pagan religions (#57, 91, ironically 89, 33), others are stereotypical with little basis in reality (#87, 84, 83, 82, 79, 64, 38, 35, 12 ), and some come off as just plain arrogant (#97, 92, 91, 63, 37, 32, 22 ).
Not to mention a few items on the list seem to use Wicca and Pagan interchangeably (#98, 30, 20, 18, 16, 7).

The main prob I have with the list is that it implies that pagan religions are better than non-pagan religions because we've got all these wonderful things and they don't.

[machadancinghorse]

The reason I posted this is because I thought that it was cute. It wasn't meant to offend anyone. I guess I'll keep my cute emails to myself from now on.

Geez, don't flatter yerself, Lol. Do you really expect to post something as wonderfully entertaining and extensive as that and NOT have healthy debate? Nowhere did I see any flame wars or face-ripping. Get over it already. You're smellin' like cotton candy:-p Lol

[Xentor]

Geez, don't flatter yerself, Lol. Do you really expect to post something as wonderfully entertaining and extensive as that and NOT have healthy debate? Nowhere did I see any flame wars or face-ripping. Get over it already. You're smellin' like cotton candy:-p Lol

Easy there.

[elfmage]

Some of the points in the list glorify pagans (#53, 96, 97, 85, 83, 82, 77, 63, 42, 41, 23) , others demean non-pagan religions (#57, 91, ironically 89, 33), others are stereotypical with little basis in reality (#87, 84, 83, 82, 79, 64, 38, 35, 12 ), and some come off as just plain arrogant (#97, 92, 91, 63, 37, 32, 22 ).
Not to mention a few items on the list seem to use Wicca and Pagan interchangeably (#98, 30, 20, 18, 16, 7).

The main prob I have with the list is that it implies that pagan religions are better than non-pagan religions because we've got all these wonderful things and they don't.

From what I read, it doesn't specifically say "unlike other religions, Paganism..." Besides which, it's called "101 Things I Love About PAGANISM," not "101 Things I Love About Paganism, Not That I Have Anything Against Other Religions, Because Of Course They Are All Equally Valid and I Like Them Too."

I hope I don't sound rude, that's not my aim, I'm just pointing out it's a bit of fun.

[BabyBird]

From what I read, it doesn't specifically say "unlike other religions, Paganism..." Besides which, it's called "101 Things I Love About PAGANISM," not "101 Things I Love About Paganism, Not That I Have Anything Against Other Religions, Because Of Course They Are All Equally Valid and I Like Them Too."

I hope I don't sound rude, that's not my aim, I'm just pointing out it's a bit of fun.Don't worry, you don't sound rude at all. ;)

And you're right, the list is about Paganism, but (I don't really know how to say this clearly, so sorry if it doesn't make sense), but the fact that it's only about paganism suggests that the writer thought those traits were exclusively pagan. Otherwise, why bother mentioning them?

Some of those traits (like 84-81) are definetly present in other religions. And since the list states that pagans are open-minded, appreciate each other, socially conscious and knowledgeable, you'd think whoever wrote the list would know that. The whole thing is just a little hypocritical.

[elfmage]

You're right, but for all we know, the people of other religions have incorporated those points into their lists of "101 Things I Love About ...." Just because they are on the list doesn't mean the author is assuming they are exclusive to Paganism, but rather that it is an aspect of the only thing being covered (in this instance, Paganism).

[BabyBird]

You do make a good point about the list not being exclusive simply b/c it pertains to paganism. But I still think that if said traits were acknowledged to belong to other religions, it'd be a given, and so, not really needed to be stated as part of paganism. That they are stated, suggests exclusivity (is that a word?).

And whether or not other religions have their own list, doesn't really matter. This is our list, and I'd like it to be at it's tip-toppiest.

[LostSheep]

This has turned into a very intellectual discussion, hasn't it?

Can't we talk about kittens?

[Xentor]

This has turned into a very intellectual discussion, hasn't it?

Can't we talk about kittens?

The list itself says we are supposed to be more knowledgable and we don't scare away from a good debate... Sure we can talk about kittens. That's why we have the Critter Chat forums. ;)

[elfmage]

You do make a good point about the list not being exclusive simply b/c it pertains to paganism. But I still think that if said traits were acknowledged to belong to other religions, it'd be a given, and so, not really needed to be stated as part of paganism. That they are stated, suggests exclusivity (is that a word?).

And whether or not other religions have their own list, doesn't really matter. This is our list, and I'd like it to be at it's tip-toppiest.

I rather think you are making this matter more complex than it actually is. You are saying that these traits are also a part of other religions, so by your above statement, you agree that it is a given! If it is a given, as you admit yourself, then why should it be necessary to be explicitly stated as such?

There must be some form of reference point for these given ideas. If they are not stated in the "Paganism" list, for fear of people interpreting that as a sign of exclusive ownership on the part of the religion, then it would also have to be excluded from any other list, be it "Christian," "Hindu," "Buddhist," etc, again for fear of that being some claim. Thus the ideas common to all would never be stated, which would leave a rather gaping hole in religious theory, not to mention doing terrible things for trans-religious relations! :lol:

I find it somewhat intriguing that you state that this list should be as perfect as possible, and it makes me wonder whether or not you have perhaps lost sight of what this list is; a humourous (and humour is more often than not at the advantage of someone/something else) caricature of Pagan stereotypes.

[Catiana]

33. There is no Army of 'Pagan Soldiers'


Does this mean I have to send my minions home? :)

[Tobias]

58. A strong woman is not a Bitch, she is a Woman


She's most likely a Witch, though!! lol


_vb_

[BabyBird]

I'm still holding fast that a given doesn't need to be stated. And seeing that a number of items on the list are barbs towards other religions, I do feel that adding givens to the list suggests that they're exclusive to paganism.

Whether or not a given is stated in other religions' lists is not my concern.
I find it somewhat intriguing that you state that this list should be as perfect as possible, and it makes me wonder whether or not you have perhaps lost sight of what this list is; a humourous (and humour is more often than not at the advantage of someone/something else) caricature of Pagan stereotypes.
:bigredblu Yeah, I did.

[Bix]

101. You can make your own religion - you can make your own path... but it isn't really a religion with no-one following it...

100. There are no inflexible rules - that depends on whether one follows a strict path or not...

99. No ultimate evil - really? Some things are quite evil.

98. You can write your own rituals - I don't like rituals.

97. We appreciate each other - No I don't. I hate a lot of people.

96. Pagans know: To be alone is not always to be lonely - You don't have to know this to be a pagan.

95. Acceptance of the unexplained rather than fear - Schizophrenics accepted... I reject your reality and substitute my own.

94. Most of the negative things said about us aren't true - Yes they are.

93. Some of the negative things are - So you do eat babies and sacrifice virgins?

92. Bowing to the masses gives you a heavy heart and a bad back - Have you seen how commercial Raven Silverwolf's books have become lately?

91. Paganism doesn't make you feel guilty - Being an asshole makes one feel guilty. Pagans just aren't afraid of saying it.

90. There are more pagans in the world than you usually think - I think a lot.

89. There is respect for otherwise ignored groups - There is fundamentalism in every religion, including paganism.

88. Don't hurt anybody: do whatever you want - Oh I'll hurt you if needed. What if I really want to hurt you?

87. You know another pagan usually before anything is said - Ooh, another looney.

86. No-one is better than anyone else - Yes I am.

85. Pagans generally debate, not fight - Wanna bet? Have you seen the political forum lately?

84. Paganism accepts you no matter your sexual orientation - A great majority of pagans has a big problem with anything outside of man-on-top - woman-on-bottom. You're a bigot no matter your religion.

83. Paganism accepts you no matter your race - You don't have to be pagan to be racist.

82. Paganism accepts you no matter what - Nope, I for instance don't accept racists.

81. There is an understanding of the personal need for growth - Some people are perfectly OK with being right where they are and not going anywhere.

80. At last there is a warm place for all us geeks - With the rest of the geeks in the nuthouse.

79. Even pagans aren't quite sure where our beliefs come from - Quite a few of us know exactly where it comes from. I for instance created my own.

78. If bad things happen, it might not be soley your fault - That's right, Jesus saves you!

77. Pagans understand the importance of tolerance - I don't tolerate a lot of these statements.

76. Pagans understand that Respect is not debasement - Some of us understand that debasement sometimes is needed to gain any respect.

75. True power comes from the love within - True power comes from the one yielding the baseball bat.

74. Celebrating by candlelight invokes a mystical atmosphere - and intoxication.

73. Dancing to drums is instinctive - and silly.

72. Symbolism speaks to the deeper parts of ourselves - Symbolism speaks to most, pagan or not.

71. I've never seen a pagan base self-worth on a pair of jeans - Did you see our Health and Beauty forum lately? Pagan to have problems with self-worth too.

70. No fear of an invisible enemy with a satirical streak - Ghosts, demons, elementals, fairies, elves, yard gnomes, dragons...

69. No one demands you give up your possessions - You don't need to be in a cult to be pagan... but you can be.

68. Paganism lets you be yourself, no matter what - You can be yourself... over there, where you can't annoy me.

67. Opening your eyes to a world you never realized was there - The world's been here... but yeah, a lot of people never saw it. It doesn't take being pagan, though. Most Christians say the same about heaven.

66. Connection to a higher force without losing yourself - Not all Christians are possessed...

65. Music speaks to the soul - only in pagans?

64. Pagans are responsible people - No I'm not.

63. We don't blame invisible entities for our problems - Ghosts, demons, elementals, fairies, elves, yard gnomes, dragons, gods...

62. To the best of our ability, we control our own fate - Ghosts, demons, elementals, fairies, elves, yard gnomes, dragons, gods...

61. Age is wisdom, not uselessness - You don't have to be wise to be old.

60. No one is judging you - Yes I am.

59. No one really expects you to wait until you're married - For your first Sony?

58. A strong woman is not a Bitch, she is a Woman - And a Bitch, too.

57. You don't have to believe words written 2k years ago
....under mysterious circumstances - No, instead you believe Silver Ravenwolf...

56. It's easy to believe words you wrote yourself - Of course. What does have to do with Paganism?

55. You don't have to be beautiful to be worth something - You don't have to be worth something to be pagan.

54. You are beautiful - Some are very ugly.

53. Pagans are generally well-read people - Some are very ignorant. Ever seen our "New Pagans" section? People asking the same questions over and over again.

52. Paganism teaches you to trust yourself - We aren't a self-help clinic. Paganism doesn't teach. Pagans might. I personally teach skepticism.

51. The innocence of a child is valued for what it can teach us - to rant, to play with matches, to break your head on the corner of the table...

50. Love everyone, unless they are bent on harm - Love myself and them anyway, because they really are too stupid to know any better.

49. The human body is beautiful; an instrument of pleasure - and an instrument of pain to some.

48. Dance expresses the Goddess in all of us - Ooh, I feel my feminine side acting up. Down boy!

47. Pagans make up their own minds: no belief at par - We already went through this... dense! Pagans appreciate repetition?

46. Everything in nature is the manifestation of Deity - Everything is natural at some level, but I surely hope the nuclear bomb that hit Hiroshima wasn't an expression of Deity...

45. Self _expression is beautiful - Pagans appreciate repetition?

44. Pagans know that anger is useful, not 'evil' - Who doesn't?

43. I've never seen a pagan burn a book - Open your eyes to the world you didn't know existed...

42. Pagans take care of themselves - except for those deliberately taking advantage of wellfare.

41. Pagans take care of others - only if it betters me.

40. No-one asks you to enslave yourself to a higher force - Pagans appreciate repetition?

39. No-one tells you what to do at all - Pagans appreciate repetition?

38. There are high expectations of pagan behaviour - People generally expect you to be nuts anyway.

37. Pagans aren't afraid to cross the line in personal thought - Pagans appreciate repetition?

36. Pagans understand the dangers of Church and State - As do most semi-intelligents.

35. Herbs and natural remedies are generally preferred - Welcome to Europe!

34. Admit it: it's a bit nice to know things that others don't - Schyzophrenics accepted...

33. There is no Army of 'Pagan Soldiers' - Ever looked at the Asatru?

32. Pagans have a small idea of what prejudice might be - No, I know exactly what prejudice is. You are showing it towards paganism through every last one of these statements.

31. Priests and Priestesses can marry - So? They are allowed not to, too.

30. Rituals are beautiful and moving - Pagans appreciate repetition?

29. We can help our gardens grow - No I can't. I kill everything I touch.

28. There are powerful female role models - Virgin Mary, Mother Theresa?

27. Chanting eases the heart - New medicine?

26. You don't have to 'Worship' as in debasing yourself - Pagans appreciate repetition?

25. Women's issues are treated as valid and equal - Women have issues?

24. You'll never see a pagan hassling non-pagan to join - Pagans appreciate repetition?

23. We are moved by deep emotion to care for others - No I'm not. You don't know satanists, do you?

22. It takes a lot of knowledge to be Pagan - It generally only takes aversion from the three Abrahamic religions, and this list doesn't show a lot of knowledge...

21. The trees speak to us in the wind - That's the Ents...

20. Magick is practical and real - And written without the K. "Magick" is made up by Aleister Crowley.

19. You can mix-and-match religions to reflect yourself - Pagans appreciate repetition?

18. You don't fall asleep during ritual - Did you ever sit through a Thelemite circle opening?

17. You can believe in whatever deity you choose - Me! Me! Me!

16. Access to the Priesthood open to all - Pagans appreciate repetition?

15. You can believe whatever you want to - Pagans appreciate repetition?

14. You don't have to 'obey your husband' - Pagans appreciate repetition?

13. You don't have to vent your steamy tales to a jealous man. - Pagans appreciate repetition?

12. Pagans are Socially conscious - Pagans appreciate repetition?

11. Celebrating outside is almost painfully beautiful - Pagans appreciate repetition?

10. No Hierarchy - Priests are higher than non-priests... Wicca has a lot of initiate states, so does Free-Masonry, Thelema and a whole lot of other paths.

9. Pagans don't demand to be right - Yes I do.

8. No Prostheletizing - No proselytising either. Pagans appreciate repetition?

7. Balance b/w Masculine and Feminine - Pagans appreciate repetition?

6. Rituals are practical and apply to real life - Rituals are the opposite of practical.

5. I can feel the Goddess in everything I do - Schyzophrenics accepted.

4. Pagans love the Earth - Here, have dirt for breakfast.

3. Women are Fully Equal with Men - If you say it often enough, you might just start believing it.

2. Open-mindedness - Been in the political pagan forum lately?

And the #1 reason I love paganism

1. You're Allowed to Have Sex! - Nobody had sex before they became pagan... not the Christians, not the Islamics, not the Jews... that's why there's so many of them!

*applauds*

[machadancinghorse]

Easy there.

What do you mean? That's what the "Lol" was for. I was kidding.

[Xentor]

What do you mean? That's what the "Lol" was for. I was kidding.

I hate you. Lol.

[SkySilver]

I hate you. Lol.

GOOD ONE! LMAO :rotfl:

[machadancinghorse]

Wow, first day and I've found the resident asshole. Later.

[BabyBird]

Wow, first day and I've found the resident asshole. Later.
The "resident asshole" is also a moderator.

[SkySilver]

She's not coming off to a good start is she? So new and already cursing in the forums... tsk tsk _tsk_

[Kaylara]

Half the list was repetitious, and the other half had almost nothing to do with paganism. The problem I have with the list is that it's feel good bullshit that doesn't mean very much. You want to impress me? Come up with a real list of any length about why you like paganism. Not just some trendy repetitive bullshit.

[fairielove]

First of all, I'm not here to impress anyone. I never said that this was my list of things I love about Paganism. I said I thought that this was funny and cute.
BB,

[Cassie]

Half the list was repetitious, and the other half had almost nothing to do with paganism. The problem I have with the list is that it's feel good bullshit that doesn't mean very much. You want to impress me? Come up with a real list of any length about why you like paganism. Not just some trendy repetitive bullshit.

In fairness I don't think Farielove was posting this in order to impress anyone, but rather just to promote discussion.

Anyway, here is a list I came up with of reasons why I personally like paganism.

1 It is a path that can be sublimely beautiful and lead to a feeling of oneness with the universe.
2 It promotes self responsibility.
3 It encourages using psychic abilities.
4 It encourages learning and growth of the individual and society as a whole.
5 It encourages appreciation and use of magic.
6 It allows you to develop a personal relationship with aspects of divinity.
7 It encourages creativity in all things.
8 It recognises the feminine aspect of all things as equal to the masculine.
9 It recognises and tries to preserve ancient wisdom and knowledge that might otherwise be lost.
10 Love, respect and understanding of The Earth and the Elements is given a high priority.
11 It is individualistic.
12 It doesn’t have a lot of dogma or rules.
13 It recognises and promotes the importance of love.
14 It is holistic.
15 Sexuality is generally seen as being a normal part of the human condition and there is more openness to different forms of sexual expression than in some other spiritual traditions.

[SkySilver]

First of all, I'm not here to impress anyone. I never said that this was my list of things I love about Paganism. I said I thought that this was funny and cute.
BB,

I think it was very thoughtful of you to share this with everyone... It's a shame that it attracted so much negative attention. Quite frankly, I am disappointed in the responses you got.

I never expected that from such a friendly forum.

:hugz:

[Tobias]

I think it was very thoughtful of you to share this with everyone... It's a shame that it attracted so much negative attention. Quite frankly, I am disappointed in the responses you got.

I never expected that from such a friendly forum.

:hugz:


Ditto

[Dragonladyofwater]

Skysilver I share your sentiment. I took it for what it was and nothing more. In my little corner of the world not everything has to be debated into the ground some things are just fun.:hehehe:

[Xentor]

I think it was very thoughtful of you to share this with everyone... It's a shame that it attracted so much negative attention. Quite frankly, I am disappointed in the responses you got.

I never expected that from such a friendly forum.

:hugz:

All the bunnies aren't fluffy.

[IvyWitch]

It seems that a lot of the contention with this list is that most things aren't exclusive to Paganism. Why? Are we forbidden to like things in our path that might just overlap with someone elses?

Really I think everyone is being WAAAAAAAAY to upight about this. If it wasn't meant to be serious sure it probably should have gone into Just Silly instead, but still. People need to stop taking themselves so seriously.

[Phoenix Blue]

33. There is no Army of 'Pagan Soldiers'


Does this mean I have to send my minions home? :)
But hey, some Pagans are Army Soldiers! *Grins*

[Astara Seague]

It seems that a lot of the contention with this list is that most things aren't exclusive to Paganism. Why? Are we forbidden to like things in our path that might just overlap with someone elses?

Really I think everyone is being WAAAAAAAAY to upight about this. If it wasn't meant to be serious sure it probably should have gone into Just Silly instead, but still. People need to stop taking themselves so seriously.

Well said!! :boquet:

[SkySilver]

All the bunnies aren't fluffy.

What the heck is that supposed to mean??

[Phoenix Blue]

What the heck is that supposed to mean??
:eyebrow: It seems like a straightforward enough statement.

[SkySilver]

It seems that a lot of the contention with this list is that most things aren't exclusive to Paganism. Why? Are we forbidden to like things in our path that might just overlap with someone elses?

Really I think everyone is being WAAAAAAAAY to upight about this. If it wasn't meant to be serious sure it probably should have gone into Just Silly instead, but still. People need to stop taking themselves so seriously.

Very well said... :thumbsup:

[SkySilver]

:eyebrow: It seems like a straightforward enough statement.

Yeah about bunnies... but he quoted me before he said that... and I want to know why.

[Phoenix Blue]

Possibly because what you called "negative attention" wasn't really all that negative at all. Yes, it was direct, but just because someone is direct or doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're being negative. In this case, it probably just means Xentor, like a lot of Pagans, gets annoyed with seeing Pagans stereotyping themselves with lists like the original list posted here.

[SkySilver]

Maybe you didn't read through everything... but there was plenty of negative connotations in this thread and quite frankly it was VERY unnecessary. People can state their opinions without being rude. I wasn't directing it toward any one person in particular because there was more than one person who came out that way.

And you mentioned the word "annoyed" which is a negative emotion. And if you can get that message from someone through a post than that is "negative attention" no matter how you try to paint it.

Not to disrespect anyone or their opinions here... That is far from my intentions... I just felt that the rudeness was unnecessary. I feel it goes against the very concept of how mol wishes to run this forum - with RESPECT.

[Phoenix Blue]

Maybe you didn't read through everything... but there was plenty of negative connotations in this thread and quite frankly it was VERY unnecessary. People can state their opinions without being rude. I wasn't directing it toward any one person in particular because there was more than one person who came out that way.
Perhaps you could point out exactly who was being rude and how. As I said, I didn't see it--and I did read through everything before I posted.

And you mentioned the word "annoyed" which is a negative emotion. And if you can get that message from someone through a post than that is "negative attention" no matter how you try to paint it.
Baloney. There's no such thing as a "negative emotion." Emotion is as positive or negative as how you choose to express it.

What annoys me is the aversion to discussing preconceptions and stereotypes of Pagans. If you're not willing to challenge your own beliefs from time to time, maybe Paganism isn't for you.

[SkySilver]

Perhaps you could point out exactly who was being rude and how. As I said, I didn't see it--and I did read through everything before I posted.

It isn't necessary for me to point this out. It is obvious to anyone who reads it. Plus my point isn't to point out anyone in particular... TRUST me, they know who they are and that is ALL that matters.

Baloney. There's no such thing as a "negative emotion." Emotion is as positive or negative as how you choose to express it.

This is a VERY contradictory statement. It makes no sense. A negative emotion is such because someone chose to express it that way. :whatmewor

What annoys me is the aversion to discussing preconceptions and stereotypes of Pagans. If you're not willing to challenge your own beliefs from time to time, maybe Paganism isn't for you.

There you go... getting annoyed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging beliefs. :lol: And I never said anything in reference to the 101 list. Hence, I have no opinion about it.

And for the record, I do challenge my beliefs.... I wouldn't be Pagan if I didn't. That's part of my spiritual growth.

[Phoenix Blue]

It isn't necessary for me to point this out. It is obvious to anyone who reads it. Plus my point isn't to point out anyone in particular... TRUST me, they know who they are and that is ALL that matters.
Not good enough--since, as I've said twice, I've seen nothing so obvious. If you're going to air a grievance, either be specific about who did what or sit down and color. To do less is worse than useless, it makes the people you're not talking about second-guess their own participation in the thread.

This is a VERY contradictory statement. It makes no sense. A negative emotion is such because someone chose to express it that way.
Umm, no. Anger is anger whether someone expresses it through rage or through more constructive means of confrontation. Love is love whether someone marries or kills for it.

And for the record, I do challenge my beliefs.... I wouldn't be Pagan if I didn't. That's part of my spiritual growth.
So why would you want to shut this challenge down by calling it "negative"?

[SkySilver]

Not good enough--since, as I've said twice, I've seen nothing so obvious. If you're going to air a grievance, either be specific about who did what or sit down and color. To do less is worse than useless, it makes the people you're not talking about second-guess their own participation in the thread.

No it is not necessary to point them out. This thread has been sabotaged enough already. The girl simply wanted to share something cute with everyone and look how this is all becoming... because of people like you.


Umm, no. Anger is anger whether someone expresses it through rage or through more constructive means of confrontation. Love is love whether someone marries or kills for it.

Killing for love? :rubhead: I'll pray for you.

[Phoenix Blue]

No it is not necessary to point them out. This thread has been sabotaged enough already. The girl simply wanted to share something cute with everyone and look how this is all becoming... because of people like you.
Yes, people like me. Horrible anti-Wiccan ad hominem bullies like me.

I'll pray for you.
Actually, I don't accept prayers. If you really want to, though, you can sacrifice a chicken for me. Or a cow. I like cows.

[SkySilver]

Yes, people like me. Horrible anti-Wiccan ad hominem bullies like me.

That's good that you know who you are... at least you admit it. I hope you're at peace with it.


Actually, I don't accept prayers. If you really want to, though, you can sacrifice a chicken for me. Or a cow. I like cows.

No thanks... It's people like you who put people like us to shame.

[Phoenix Blue]

That's good that you know who you are... at least you admit it. I hope you're at peace with it.




No thanks... It's people like you who put people like us to shame.
I'm shaming you by disagreeing with you? I thought you said you were into spiritual growth!

Maybe this comes back to what Xentor was saying. Not all Pagans believe everything about Paganism is (or should be) "cute." The fact that this glurge spreads disinformation about Paganism makes it more offensive than cute, in my opinion.

Maybe I missed the part of Pagan philosophy that demands I titter like a teenage girl at anything remotely "cute" regardless of how funny (or how sad) it actually is.

[SkySilver]

I'm shaming you by disagreeing with you? I thought you said you were into spiritual growth!

Again you're not making any sense... I was quoting your comment about animal sacrifice... :goodgrief


Maybe this comes back to what Xentor was saying. Not all Pagans believe everything about Paganism is (or should be) "cute." The fact that this glurge spreads disinformation about Paganism makes it more offensive than cute, in my opinion.

That's a good point. But still, it wasn't meant to be taken so seriously.

Maybe I missed the part of Pagan philosophy that demands I titter like a teenage girl at anything remotely "cute" regardless of how funny (or how sad) it actually is.

The girl was just trying to share something that she thought was cute... and she expressed that she didn't want to offend anyone. She could have easily posted this in "Just Silly"

Like someone said earlier, stop taking yourself so seriously! Here, take this: :achillpil :achillpil :p

[Phoenix Blue]

Again you're not making any sense... I was quoting your comment about animal sacrifice...
Which shames other Pagans how? I daresay pre-Christian paganism would have seen no shame in animal sacrifice, and more than a couple of reconstructionist faiths still practice it--more humanely than the butchers who prepare meat animals for the supermarket, I might add.

Kinda goes against the whole "Paganism accepts everyone." Maybe this should just be "100 Things I Like About Paganism," eh?

[SkySilver]

Which shames other Pagans how? I daresay pre-Christian paganism would have seen no shame in animal sacrifice, and more than a couple of reconstructionist faiths still practice it--more humanely than the butchers who prepare meat animals for the supermarket, I might add.

Kinda goes against the whole "Paganism accepts everyone." Maybe this should just be "100 Things I Like About Paganism," eh?

I didn't come here to discuss animal sacrifice.... yuck! Keep it to yourself.

I know people do that... but I'd rather not debate about it. I respect others and their beliefs and do not wish to tear anyone down for it.

So, sorry for the comment earlier.

Much love to you... Thanks for keeping me entertained. This was quite enlightening.

Take care and Blessed Be!

[Kaylara]

Actually, the first ones to take offense were the people who are trying to defend this dribble.

Let me start by saying, Rudeness doesn't mean disrespect, nor is it against the rules. I can be rude and not disrespect you. Infact, if you reread the post that Xentor made in response to the original post, he was not being disrespectful to anyone. It was disagreeing with the idiotic repetitive bullshit contained in the original post. He didn't attack anyone, he disagreed with the opinions contained in the post. Deal with it.

Just as your response to a given post can't be dictated, nor can you expect that someone else will give a response that you like. That's just the bad part about being "pagan" and being "encouraged" to think for yourself and debate things. I don't like an email that makes the entire pagan community look like a bunch of half-braindead, ignorant, blind, hypocritical, gullible, naive, uncritical, unquestioning, unsophisticated, untrained, sex crazed, tree hugging hippies.

As I said in my original post, a list that actually has some meat to it, with points that aren't just feel good pagan propaganda would have gone over much better.

And, if you're not going to discuss any particular points that are bothering you, then I suggest you leave the thread, because any actual discussion on the thread is being killed by the fact that you can't handle a little difference of opinion. And you're taking every bit of discussion as a personal attack, which, also is not a good way to have a discussion.

[Kaylara]

Which shames other Pagans how? I daresay pre-Christian paganism would have seen no shame in animal sacrifice, and more than a couple of reconstructionist faiths still practice it--more humanely than the butchers who prepare meat animals for the supermarket, I might add.

Kinda goes against the whole "Paganism accepts everyone." Maybe this should just be "100 Things I Like About Paganism," eh?

So I guess that means that you're coming to the baby roast/orgy later then? We'll bring the nutmeg and the whipped cream.

Because paganism accepts everything and everyone. (As long as you fit their happy little mold. Otherwise, you're just a total deviant.)

[SkySilver]

I never mentioned anyone in particular...

[SkySilver]

"idiotic repetitive bull***?" that's supposed to be polite?

[SkySilver]

you guys are hopeless... I'm outta here...

[Kaylara]

Who said I have to be polite? Since when do I have to give politeness to a stupid email chain letter?

You didn't need to mention anyone in particular. But if you're going to argue a point, at least back it up and go all the way. Don't say "oh, I think certain people are being rude." or "I think that it was wrong to post that, and rude." Back it up. Why do you think it was wrong? What in particular is the problem here. We can't possibly have a good discussion on a topic with such vague assertations.

[SkySilver]

First of all, being that you're a moderator for a forum that has a number ONE rule of RESPECT... your not doing such a good job at setting an example.

I do not need to explain or argue a point in a thread that was initiated by someone who was intending it to be FRIENDLY and CUTE.

Sure I was vague, and yes, I didn't feel the need to back it up. WHY? because it was obvious to anyone who reads the thread. Plus, I was exercising the number one rule.

Get over yourself woman. Just because you help run this forum doesn't give you the right to belittle people and curse in your posts. I would report you but what would be the point?


BB

[SkySilver]

And you're taking every bit of discussion as a personal attack

Huh?... I never took anything personally. I was simply stating an opinion about how the thread was being handled.

[Kaylara]

First of all, being that you're a moderator for a forum that has a number ONE rule of RESPECT... your not doing such a good job at setting an example.
Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that in order to be respectful and help to run this site that I had to leave all of my opinions and my brain at the door. If you have a problem with how I've been posting you're free to report it, or send it to Mol and see what he thinks. Respect has nothing to do with politeness. I respect you enough to try to discuss your opinion and your posts instead of personally attacking you which, an act you apparently are unable to grasp nor reciprocate. I do not have to be nice to you. I do not have to agree with everything you say. I can and may be rude. Politeness isn't the rule on this site. Respect is.

I do not need to explain or argue a point in a thread that was initiated by someone who was intending it to be FRIENDLY and CUTE.

I found it neither friendly nor cute. I found it sterotypical, detrimental, inane, and stupid. And I am perfectly within my rights on this site to say so without having someone attack me. If you are going to assert any claims at all then you will be asked to back it up. WHY? Because this is a public message board and people do not have to accept whatever you say as the word of the gods. If you're going to argue a point that has something even remotely to do with the thread, please do. But if your only opinion on a subject is a personal attack, then I strongly suggest that you leave the thread.

Sure I was vague, and yes, I didn't feel the need to back it up. WHY? because it was obvious to anyone who reads the thread. Plus, I was exercising the number one rule.
It's not obvious to quite a few of the people who read this post, as the majority of people have disagreed with you. You felt the need to vaguely attack someone, so that you could cover your own ass and avoid being repremanded by an admin. If you're going to argue a point that's one thing, but you're not arguing a point at all. In fact most of your posts in this thread have been nothing but repeated vague attacks, and have had nothing to actually do with the posts nor the subject. If you can't argue a topic that doesn't give you the right to attack people that disagree with you.

Get over yourself woman. Just because you help run this forum doesn't give you the right to belittle people and curse in your posts. I would report you but what would be the point?

I have to say I love it when I'm told how to do my job. Just because I am an administrator doesn't mean that I am not allowed to have opinions, nor does it mean that I am a perfect target for you. You're not allowed to attack me anymore than you're allowed to attack anyone else on this site. Cursing, within limits is allowed. Had I broken any rules you would have seen that the automatic language filter would have kicked in and changed my post accordingly. Feel free to report any of my posts if you think they're over the line. If the other admins feel I've crossed a line, they will be the first to say so.

Personally, I think that we should get back on topic, and that if you can't join in civil discussion on a topic that you find some where else to light things on fire.

[Kaylara]

Huh?... I never took anything personally. I was simply stating an opinion about how the thread was being handled.
If you have a problem with a post, any post, report it. Do not address the problem in the thread. It derails the entire topc/post, and also, it's not your job to handle these issues. If you have a problem with how a post is handled after you've reported it, contact Mol.

[SkySilver]

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that in order to be respectful and help to run this site that I had to leave all of my opinions and my brain at the door.
I never said that.

If you have a problem with how I've been posting you're free to report it, or send it to Mol and see what he thinks.
no thanks, I do not want to make a federal case out of such a petty topic.


Respect has nothing to do with politeness.
For children it doesn't... but adults should know better!

I respect you enough to try to discuss your opinion and your posts instead of personally attacking you which, an act you apparently are unable to grasp nor reciprocate.
a statement which has no basis in truth. I only stated one opinion and it was a general comment that didn't need to be made as big as you and PB did.

I do not have to be nice to you. I do not have to agree with everything you say. I can and may be rude. Politeness isn't the rule on this site. Respect is.
You're right, you do not have to be nice... you do not have to be polite... it's your choice to represent yourself in that way. Go for it.

I found it neither friendly nor cute. I found it sterotypical, detrimental, inane, and stupid. And I am perfectly within my rights on this site to say so without having someone attack me.
Some one attacked you? :foh:

If you are going to assert any claims at all then you will be asked to back it up. WHY? Because this is a public message board and people do not have to accept whatever you say as the word of the gods.
I never expected anyone to accept my word as such. In fact, no one was required to even respond to it. The fact that it bothers people only proves that there was truth in my statement. The fact that it would bother anyone says a lot.

If you're going to argue a point that has something even remotely to do with the thread, please do. But if your only opinion on a subject is a personal attack, then I strongly suggest that you leave the thread.
My intention was NEVER to "argue a point". I was simply stating my opinion... didn't you just say that we all have that right? :lol: oh and I never attacked anyone here personally. If I did, it was unintentional and I already apologized to PB for what I said in one post.

It's not obvious to quite a few of the people who read this post, as the majority of people have disagreed with you.
I don't need to point out posts from people who disagreed with the negative reactions of some of you. :goodgrief If you look back, you'll find them. I think you should re-read the thread if your going to make a comment like that. Who is the majority?? you and two others maybe. Oh wait, your an admin, you may count as two all by yourself.

You felt the need to vaguely attack someone, so that you could cover your own ass and avoid being repremanded by an admin. If you're going to argue a point that's one thing, but you're not arguing a point at all. In fact most of your posts in this thread have been nothing but repeated vague attacks, and have had nothing to actually do with the posts nor the subject. If you can't argue a topic that doesn't give you the right to attack people that disagree with you.
I wasn't "vaguely attacking" anyone. I am the last person to initiate such action. It was an opinion my dear... get over it and move on!

I have to say I love it when I'm told how to do my job.
it's only a forum... that's sad... you're not even getting paid for it and your taking it so seriously.

Just because I am an administrator doesn't mean that I am not allowed to have opinions, nor does it mean that I am a perfect target for you. You're not allowed to attack me anymore than you're allowed to attack anyone else on this site. Cursing, within limits is allowed. Had I broken any rules you would have seen that the automatic language filter would have kicked in and changed my post accordingly. Feel free to report any of my posts if you think they're over the line. If the other admins feel I've crossed a line, they will be the first to say so.

Personally, I think that we should get back on topic, and that if you can't join in civil discussion on a topic that you find some where else to light things on fire.

I never initiated a 'fire'... but you sure know how to make me out that way even though you have no basis for it. I have been nothing but civil here... and I don't see where or how a 'fire' was started... looks like I may have started one in you though. But really, that was not my intention.

[SkySilver]

If you have a problem with a post, any post, report it. Do not address the problem in the thread. It derails the entire topc/post, and also, it's not your job to handle these issues. If you have a problem with how a post is handled after you've reported it, contact Mol.

**salutes** Yes ma'am!

[medit8ive_spirit]

I don't know how this thread turned into such a debate. I won't get into the middle of any of that.

To answer the orig. posting, I don't have 101 reasons. But here are the few I have.

1)until I saw the debate in this forum, I've always felt that this was the only place where most of us are accepted for having different beliefs
2)I can follow a little of different paths that all become one for the Goddess
3)I have friends back in my life
4)my hubby accepts me as I am and knows I'm searching
5)for once in a very long time, I have some peace in my life

[Kaylara]

Some one attacked you? :foh:
Yes, you did, repeatedly. See below.
First of all, being that you're a moderator for a forum that has a number ONE rule of RESPECT... your not doing such a good job at setting an example.


Get over yourself woman. Just because you help run this forum doesn't give you the right to belittle people and curse in your posts. I would report you but what would be the point?


Respect has nothing to do with politeness.

For children it doesn't... but adults should know better!


...Who is the majority?? you and two others maybe. Oh wait, your an admin, you may count as two all by yourself.


I wasn't "vaguely attacking" anyone. I am the last person to initiate such action. It was an opinion my dear... get over it and move on!
No, you were very plainly attacking me. An opinion about the topic is one thing, an opinion attacking someone is something else. Best you learn the difference.


it's only a forum... that's sad... you're not even getting paid for it and your taking it so seriously.

I take many things seriously. My religion. My relationships. My Community. My job on this site, which I've had for the past five years, without being paid. I don't need to be paid for this job. Which in some peoples eyes may be sad, and a reason to treat it like it wasn't important. But money is not what motivates me here, nor what motivates the rest of the staff on here. If you must know, we are actually all subscribers on here. We love this site, and this community, and that is why we take it seriously, and that is why we work here without pay. The same thing that makes Mol run this site at all, without pay, even though it's costing him out of pocket money that he could use for his own real life family. But we're just as important to him as his real life family, and that's why we have this website to talk on.


To answer the orig. posting, I don't have 101 reasons. But here are the few I have.

1)until I saw the debate in this forum, I've always felt that this was the only place where most of us are accepted for having different beliefs
2)I can follow a little of different paths that all become one for the Goddess
3)I have friends back in my life
4)my hubby accepts me as I am and knows I'm searching
5)for once in a very long time, I have some peace in my life

My only question for you on this list is how much of this is the website and how much of it is the pagan community at large? Have you met many pagans IRL? :)

[Eldric_Dragonsblood]

Xen, Kay....I just have to say this..... I love you.

"Onward Pagan Soilders....Marching on to the Mead...."

[Eldric_Dragonsblood]

Normally, I don't ever double post...but I wanted to make sure this was stated seperately.

Folks, anyone who got offended by Xentor's "rebuttal" post just ends up supporting many of the things pointed out by Kay and Xen (Kay told me in chat, they worked on this one together).

fairielove posted a list she thought was cute and fun. Xentor and Kay, being pagans who are concerned with the rise of non-educated, non-thinking pagans, decided to follow in the footsteps of many of the great philosophers of history. They used satire and humour to point out the flaws in the list. This doesn't mean their were being disrespectful or even rude. It was something which concerns a segment of the pagan community. Instead of being disrespectful and rude, they used humour. No, there wasn't anything attacking in the "rebuttal' post, just a fun way to point out flaws. We do admit you have to see flaws to be able to fix them and grow into a better person, right?

Besides, even if they weren't right (which they are, otherwise people wouldn't be getting upset), if you can't laugh at yourself, you are seriously in trouble. You are taking yourself WAY to seriously.

[Cassie]

Just my opinion for what it is worth...
I think the arguement between Kaylara and Xentor on the one side and Skysilver on the other, which has dominated this thread, happened because the parties concerned were interpreting the site respect rule in entirely different ways. As a result everyone involved felt they were being attacked unfairly and responded accordingly. Thus the whole thing escalated.
I think Skysilver acting on the assumption that respect=politeness found some of Xen and Kay's remarks harsh and offensive. (So did I at first to be honest).
Xen and Kay on the other hand found the original post in this thread offensive because it seemed disrespectful to Paganism in it's banality.
I don't think anyone involved really wanted the arguement to go on as long as it has, but then again nobody wanted to back down because within their interpretation of the rules, they were clearly right.
This is why I started the thread on what 'respect' means here at MW.

[LostSheep]

One thing that occurs to me though, in how many other religions would you find this kind argument/discussion/whatever you prefer to call it? It's hard to imagine this kind of argument (alright, I'll call it that) about what's good or not so good about their particular religion on a catholic forum, say,where the official line has to be followed and no arguing.

Oh dear ... was that getting worryingly near fluffyness?

I'll go now.... :excuseme:

[Kaylara]

Not true at all Lost Sheep. Christians argue it just as much, hence the different denominations.

[Kaylara]

Just my opinion for what it is worth...
I think the arguement between Kaylara and Xentor on the one side and Skysilver on the other, which has dominated this thread, happened because the parties concerned were interpreting the site respect rule in entirely different ways. As a result everyone involved felt they were being attacked unfairly and responded accordingly. Thus the whole thing escalated.
I think Skysilver acting on the assumption that respect=politeness found some of Xen and Kay's remarks harsh and offensive. (So did I at first to be honest).
Xen and Kay on the other hand found the original post in this thread offensive because it seemed disrespectful to Paganism in it's banality.
I don't think anyone involved really wanted the arguement to go on as long as it has, but then again nobody wanted to back down because within their interpretation of the rules, they were clearly right.
This is why I started the thread on what 'respect' means here at MW.

The difference being that Xen and I were actually discussing the topic that was brought up, and SkySilver was not. If you find a post offensive, you are supposed to report it. Period. You're not supposed to address it in the thread as it derails the subject, nor are you allowed to attack people who disagree with you. Obviously this thread is a perfect example of a hijacked thread.

Therein lies the difference. You can discuss an opinion and say 'I think this opinion is utterly stupid.' But when you cross the line and say 'I think you are utterly stupid.' then we have a problem. If you can't tell the difference between the two posts, then you will probably have a problem telling if something is against the rules. Rudeness doesn't imply disrespect, nor does it break the rules of this site. No where in the rules does it say that I have to be nice, or that we all have to be nice to each other. If this is something that you can't handle, that is your problem and not mine.

And when someone takes a post of mine, as a member on the site, and tries telling me how to do my job as an admin here, then yes, it's a personal attack. Admins are members too, and are allowed to post. When I post as an admin, I, like all of the other admins will note that we're doing so by putting in *Administrator Mode* Otherwise, we're just normal members. Implying that I'm not allowed to discuss something because I am an admin is stupid. Calling me sad because I am an admin and enjoy my job is equally stupid. If I've done anything wrong, the other admins will publically call me out on it. But trying to attack me for being an admin because you don't like what I have to say is not going to get you anywhere positive.

[Phoenix Blue]

1)until I saw the debate in this forum, I've always felt that this was the only place where most of us are accepted for having different beliefs
There's a difference between accepting others' right to their beliefs and accepting their beliefs. One is a gesture of respect--another is a level of accommodation that would compromise my own beliefs.

I've not seen anyone say, "You're not allowed to think that way." I've seen a few people strongly disagree with the items on the list, and that's their right. If your beliefs can't withstand a level of scrutiny, you should consider what motivates you to believe as you do.

[Phoenix Blue]

I have been nothing but civil here... and I don't see where or how a 'fire' was started...
You don't think telling an admin to get over herself might be less than civil?

Let me guess, you're one of those types who can do no wrong in your own mind. Anything that happens can't possibly be your fault--it's a spirit, or another person, or something, but not possibly you.

Here's a life lesson for you: Learn to take responsibility for your own words and your own actions. It's an important step toward acting, and being treated, as an adult. And acting like a victim will make you a victim, as well--it's only a question of when.

[Aconite]

HAHA LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I LOVE IT! Good job:D I liked it.

[SkySilver]

Wow, so many posts about me here. You must feel very proud of yourselves. Well, it's only fair that I post my responses:

Yes, you did, repeatedly. See below.

No, you were very plainly attacking me. An opinion about the topic is one thing, an opinion attacking someone is something else. Best you learn the difference.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier: "My intention was NEVER to "argue a point". I was simply stating my opinion... didn't you just say that we all have that right? oh and I never attacked anyone here personally. If I did, it was unintentional."

Didn't you say earlier that we don't have to be 'nice' to be respectful? Funny how you can define it as an "attack" when it's directed at you. But when you attack someone else for their beliefs like the examples below, you justify it by saying that you don't have to be polite to be respectful.

It was disagreeing with the idiotic repetitive bullshit contained in the original post.

if you're not going to discuss any particular points that are bothering you, then I suggest you leave the thread

Since when do I have to give politeness to a stupid email chain letter?

I found it neither friendly nor cute. I found it sterotypical, detrimental, inane, and stupid.

This whole debate started after I posted this response:
I think it was very thoughtful of you to share this with everyone... It's a shame that it attracted so much negative attention. Quite frankly, I am disappointed in the responses you got.

I never expected that from such a friendly forum.
:hugz:

I was only trying to make her feel better. I wasn't trying to put anyone in particular down out of respect.

It was never intended to turn into such a lengthy debate. It was an 'opinion'. Something of which I supposedly have every right to have. And I have an equal right to choose not to elaborate on why I believed such a thing. One person who posted after me even agreed with my post.

It's funny because the very person who got a rise out of what I said above is the same one who came off negative to begin with.

The problem I have with the list is that it's feel good bullshit that doesn't mean very much. You want to impress me? Come up with a real list of any length about why you like paganism. Not just some trendy repetitive bullshit.

You wanted details? There you have it...

An attack is an attack whether you direct it to someone personally or indirectly. You were engaging me in a discussion and I was responding. Period.

If you can dish it out... but then you can't take it when you're on the other side of the token, you shouldn't dish it out in the first place.

If you feel you have a right to belittle and put people down, hiding behind the "politeness doesn't equal respect" belief, be expected to get the same in return.

[SkySilver]

fairielove posted a list she thought was cute and fun. Xentor and Kay, being pagans who are concerned with the rise of non-educated, non-thinking pagans, decided to follow in the footsteps of many of the great philosophers of history. They used satire and humour to point out the flaws in the list. This doesn't mean their were being disrespectful or even rude. It was something which concerns a segment of the pagan community. Instead of being disrespectful and rude, they used humour. No, there wasn't anything attacking in the "rebuttal' post, just a fun way to point out flaws. We do admit you have to see flaws to be able to fix them and grow into a better person, right?

See, I didn't know this. Maybe I misunderstood her cursing and calling it stupid as being negative. That's the thing with forums. You can see what people say but you can't sense their tone.

I think that it's great that Xen and Kay worked on that together to create a more realistic list.

Kaylara... for the record... If you took the things that I said as a 'personal attack', I am sorry. Like I said before, my intention from the beginning was simply to make the thread-starter feel better. I never imagined that it would become such a lengthy debate.

[SkySilver]

The difference being that Xen and I were actually discussing the topic that was brought up, and SkySilver was not. If you find a post offensive, you are supposed to report it. Period. You're not supposed to address it in the thread as it derails the subject, nor are you allowed to attack people who disagree with you. Obviously this thread is a perfect example of a hijacked thread.

If you read my original post, you'll see that I was simply thanking the threadstarter for sharing the 101 thing. I never intended to personally attack anyone. All I did after Xen made the comment about the bunnies, was ask him what he meant by it. The question was directed at him and ended up as a debate about what our number one rule "respect" actually means. Something that I now see we must agree to disagree about at this point.

If my original post bothered you - obviously there was some truth in it for you.

[SkySilver]

Let me guess, you're one of those types who can do no wrong in your own mind. Anything that happens can't possibly be your fault--it's a spirit, or another person, or something, but not possibly you.

And you got that impression because I told her to get over herself? That's all you have to go on. And now I am wrong for not being "polite" - something that some people here don't associate with respect? Like I said to her earlier, if you can dish it out... be expected to receive it in return.

From the very beginning my post was taken out of context. I was simply defending that point.

Here's a life lesson for you: Learn to take responsibility for your own words and your own actions. It's an important step toward acting, and being treated, as an adult. And acting like a victim will make you a victim, as well--it's only a question of when.

I have taken responsibility for my own words and actions. There are no victims here, my friend. Just people with very different perceptions.

[SkySilver]

Respect has nothing to do with politeness.

For children it doesn't... but adults should know better!

My response to that comment was NOT a personal attack. I meant that children aren't always polite because they don't always know better. Please don't think that I was calling you a child.

[SkySilver]

HAHA LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I LOVE IT! Good job:D I liked it.

Make sure you read through everything before making judgments. There are always at least two sides to a story. :)

[Kaylara]

Skysilver, if you cannot see the difference between calling an opinion stupid, and calling someone else stupid, that's not my problem. And quite honestly I don't care if I offended you by cursing or calling an opinion stupid. I didn't call the poster stupid. I didn't call you stupid. I said that I thought the opinions were stupid, and I gave good reason why. In fact I'm going to post here a bit more of a detailed reason for me not agreeing with the original post. If you aren't going to discuss the original topic of the thread, then you can leave the thread.

[SkySilver]

Like I said in my post, at some point people have to agree to disagree. I can see that there is a difference but a negative response is a negative response regardless. And my original point was simply stating that. It was an opinion that didn't need to be taken seriously. And instead it was blown out of proportion by the same people who think it's in their right to be rude or non-polite if they so desire.

Please don't misunderstand, you didn't offend me in anyway. You can call anything I post here stupid as often as you like. It's just my opinion that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. But that's just an opinion... not something I feel the need to prove or argue about.

In fact I'm going to post here a bit more of a detailed reason for me not agreeing with the original post. If you aren't going to discuss the original topic of the thread, then you can leave the thread.
That's fine with me. I wasn't the one who brought up this subject in the first place. When Xen told me that bunnies weren't fluffy, I simply asked what he meant by that thinking that it had something to do with the subject. Unfortunately it ensued this unnecessary debate.

I want to leave this on a positive note with you. Despite our differences, I want to say that I respect you and enjoy having you as a moderator in this forum. And I am being honest.

To get back to the topic of the thread, I will say that I don't agree with most of the things on the list. I enjoyed reading Xen's list more as it seems to be based more on reality.

[Protagonist]

I think I need to write 101 Things I Like about Christianity. Just to, you know, flap y'all.

[SkySilver]

:lol:

[Kaylara]

Lmfao!