Heathen Magic/Witchcraft

[Hærfest Leah]

Who else is Heathen and practices magic/witchcraft? How do you work your faith into your magical workings?

I have the book Northern Magic on order so it may answer some questions but I want to hear from you personally?

I try to only read books on magic & witchery that are non Wicca related but most have something to do with Wicca. So how do you think it is best to approach all the god & goddess related info & rituals, insert a Norse or Teutonic deity here? I like folk magic & natural magic that deals with the elements & as minimal elaborate by the book rituals & ceremonies as possible.

I do plan to work in runes but that will be later & I plan on getting them from Rick.

[Nantonos]

Some Heathens are strongly against magic, but not all by any means. You might want to find out about Seithr:

http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/seithr.html

I reccommend Jenny Blain's Nine Worlds of Seid-Magic: Ecstasy and Neo-Shamanism in North European Paganism for a non-Wiccan look. She is an anthropologist, and also Heathen.

[Driffinna]

Majority of Heathens actually don't practice magic. Those that do most likely practice runes or seidth, as they are both of Norse tradition. However most books you find on runes will be based on the studies of 19th century german high magicians not prechristian scandinvian practices. The Northern Magic book by Aswynn is actually considered by many Heathens to be a bit flakey when it comes to Heathen magic, adding in too many outside elements. Not saying it won't work, but that her tree of life is really the Kabballah and other things that are really from different religions not Heathen. Read the end of the Havamal and the Lay of Sigdriffa in the Poetic Edda for some of the oldest sources on runes around. As well as the rune poems which you can find online here: http://www.northvegr.org/lore/runes/index.php

[Renny]

I'm kind of like you I think. I use magic and witchcraft but I try to steer clear of the wiccan stuff because it's just not for me. I don't care if what I do is "not heathen" because I don't claim to be anyway. You don't want wicca, but you want to expand your horizons... so don't be afraid to explore different practices, yet keep them within the context of the norse. No one but you can tell you whether or not it's right.

It's harder to find books on the norse stuff.. the only book I really have on magic that isn't wiccanized is Power Spellcraft for Life, it's pretty good and is religion neutral. Talks about many different ways to use magic. I'm also waiting for one of the Temple of Witchcraft books, it might be a little more wicca ish but I've heard it's good anyway and not "fluffy". And even if it's a wiccan book, just use your own gods instead of god/goddess, maybe use the basic text but change it's words around to fit your style, and there are other things you could do, like for example instead of tracing a circle, I trace all of the runes in a circle around me as sort of a runic shield, and it works well.

You should definitely learn more about runes and seidr, those are great things to incorporate into magic rituals.

[Hærfest Leah]

Nantonos, Thanks for the link I saved it & hope to be able to read it soon.

Driffinna, The book I ordered is not by Freya Aswynn it's by Edred Thorsson. I've heard bad things about her and just to be cautious of Thorssons work.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567187099/qid=1130098985/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-2367916-5121517?v=glance&s=books

Renny, Thanks for the book ideas, I'll look into them. I like the rune idea for the circle, I never cast those unless its something big & I like that idea better.

And for the elements earth, air, fire and water didn't they use ice as a substitute for air due to what was in their physical directions? Ice north, earth east, fire south & water west.

[Malcolm]

I don't really use magic. I don't believe in it. To me there is nothing that magic can do, that I can't do on my own. I tip a glass for Odin or Loki every now and then but thats about it.

I dabble a bit in divination vis a vi the runes, but I'm far from being any good at it yet. As another poster said most of us don't practice magic. I've talked to a few that do though. Its a personal decision.

Theres a difference between Asatru and being a Heathen. I'm not the most qualified person to tell you what those differences are. I do know that Asatru is a reconstructionist path, and heathenism is as well...although not so much.

From my experience I haven't found that the norse were really that magical of a people. Some practiced a form of shamanism, but from what I have gathered that was a female dominated tradition. Although Odin was said to be a great shaman...so theres that.

The Norse are a funny people. I haven't read anything that doesn't make me see them as not so much spiritual but superstitious.

[Hærfest Leah]

I don't really use magic. I don't believe in it. To me there is nothing that magic can do, that I can't do on my own. I tip a glass for Odin or Loki every now and then but thats about it.

I dabble a bit in divination vis a vi the runes, but I'm far from being any good at it yet. As another poster said most of us don't practice magic. I've talked to a few that do though. Its a personal decision.

And thats your call, as for me I like it & wish to take what I practice now & adapt it more to my path.

Theres a difference between Asatru and being a Heathen. I'm not the most qualified person to tell you what those differences are. I do know that Asatru is a reconstructionist path, and heathenism is as well...although not so much.

Read this you may like it but I know what you mean. I just said Heathen to encompass all Heathen paths.
http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/heathenry/callusheathen.html

From my experience I haven't found that the norse were really that magical of a people. Some practiced a form of shamanism, but from what I have gathered that was a female dominated tradition. Although Odin was said to be a great shaman...so theres that.

The Norse are a funny people. I haven't read anything that doesn't make me see them as not so much spiritual but superstitious.

I don't know how magical they were, that's why I'm going to learn more on it. Yep, I want to keep on the tradition of those women. Funny yes, they all make me feel at home.

[Gnoblod]

I work ogham and runes, but I don't call it magic, exactly.

[Hærfest Leah]

I work ogham and runes, but I don't call it magic, exactly.

So how do you like to think of it? You maybe be right I just used the word magic but I guess the appropriate word would be seithr huh?

[Driffinna]

So how do you like to think of it? You maybe be right I just used the word magic but I guess the appropriate word would be seithr huh?

Seidthr is a very particular type of "magic." Unless you are travelling to Hel to talk to the dead or directly manipulating a person's soul you aren't practicing Seidhr.

I particularly like this site on it, but just to warn he is rather snarky: http://www.angelfire.com/nm/seidhman/

The Troth has a few articles written about it and at the very bottom of that page it will take you to Diana Paxson's page that has a whole bunch of articles on Seidhr and Spae: http://www.thetroth.org/resources/

Someone recommended you Jenny Blain's book. I haven't read it, but heard it was good. And I recently got I book called "A Source Book of Seidth" from http://www.runaraven.com/index.html which is just a small book on all of the different accounts in which Seidth is found in the lore, it has it in the original language and a translation by Thorrson (Stephen Flowers is his real name). It has no opinions or approaching on how to by the author, just direct sources which I think is a rather nice change.

Actually a lot of the books in there would be helpful for Norse Magic in general.

[Hærfest Leah]

Seidthr is a very particular type of "magic." Unless you are travelling to Hel to talk to the dead or directly manipulating a person's soul you aren't practicing Seidhr.

Ah ok I got it now, thanks. Didn't realize that.

I particularly like this site on it, but just to warn he is rather snarky: http://www.angelfire.com/nm/seidhman/

The Troth has a few articles written about it and at the very bottom of that page it will take you to Diana Paxson's page that has a whole bunch of articles on Seidhr and Spae: http://www.thetroth.org/resources/

Someone recommended you Jenny Blain's book. I haven't read it, but heard it was good. And I recently got I book called "A Source Book of Seidth" from http://www.runaraven.com/index.html which is just a small book on all of the different accounts in which Seidth is found in the lore, it has it in the original language and a translation by Thorrson (Stephen Flowers is his real name). It has no opinions or approaching on how to by the author, just direct sources which I think is a rather nice change.

Actually a lot of the books in there would be helpful for Norse Magic in general.

Thanks I'll check these out when I get the chance. :smile:

[Gnoblod]

So how do you like to think of it?

As stuff! :)

"Magic" has so many implications that just don't fit. I see my practices as a way to do something, not as supernatural abilities.

[Hangatyr 13]

As stuff! :)

"Magic" has so many implications that just don't fit. I see my practices as a way to do something, not as supernatural abilities.Well, that's a good way to look at it.:hmmmmm:

[Hærfest Leah]

Well, that's a good way to look at it.:hmmmmm:

Yes it is.

[heathenwolf]

Well its not really magic you see its a kind of Weaving of Wyrd. Wyrd is very important in Germanic mysticism because we each make our own path. Each man to his own fate. The Norns take care of everyone very well.

[Nantonos]

Well its not really magic you see its a kind of Weaving of Wyrd.

And weaving Wyrd is not magic because ....

[Hærfest Leah]

Here's one for ya since it falls into the magical category. Can I get some opinions on Vanatru? I've been reading some on it.

[Driffinna]

Here's one for ya since it falls into the magical category. Can I get some opinions on Vanatru? I've been reading some on it.

I thought Vanatru was like Asatru only with a focus on the Vanir? I am not sure how that would fall into the magical category as I know many who are dedicated to the Gods and Goddesses of the Vanir without being associated with magic.

However if you are talking about Seidhr, which was a Vanic magical art... it is something I am interested in, however I have not tried it as I do recongnize that it is a dangerous process in which I am extremely untrained. And having met one Seidth worker who has definatly been to the other side one too many times I have seen the effect it can have upon your stability in the physical world. Basically I don't condemn it or find it an evil art like some, it can do people a lot of good. From communicating between spirits and our own world, I have even heard of one group that is working on ways to use Seidhr to improve upon one's hamingja (luck). Whatever you use it for though it is definatly something one does not "dabble" in. And I would probably not feel comfortable learning it without an experienced trusts seidth worker teaching me.

Just my .02 cents.

[Hærfest Leah]

I thought Vanatru was like Asatru only with a focus on the Vanir? I am not sure how that would fall into the magical category as I know many who are dedicated to the Gods and Goddesses of the Vanir without being associated with magic.

However if you are talking about Seidhr, which was a Vanic magical art... it is something I am interested in, however I have not tried it as I do recongnize that it is a dangerous process in which I am extremely untrained. And having met one Seidth worker who has definatly been to the other side one too many times I have seen the effect it can have upon your stability in the physical world. Basically I don't condemn it or find it an evil art like some, it can do people a lot of good. From communicating between spirits and our own world, I have even heard of one group that is working on ways to use Seidhr to improve upon one's hamingja (luck). Whatever you use it for though it is definatly something one does not "dabble" in. And I would probably not feel comfortable learning it without an experienced trusts seidth worker teaching me.

Just my .02 cents.

I met a girl on an Asatru board that was saying that Vanatru focuses more on the Vanir and since the Vanir are more magical it also focuses more on the magical side of Heathenry than Asatru & then she sent me a link for a Germanic Witchdom class.

Vanic Witchdom 101
http://ragngautr-kindred.org/moo/

[Driffinna]

I met a girl on an Asatru board that was saying that Vanatru focuses more on the Vanir and since the Vanir are more magical it also focuses more on the magical side of Heathenry than Asatru & then she sent me a link for a Germanic Witchdom class.

Vanic Witchdom 101
http://ragngautr-kindred.org/moo/

Freya is known for her magic, but so is Odin. Frey, Njord, Nerthus as far as we know though did not practice magic. I will admit though most people I know who work mainly or almost exculsively with the Vanir work with Freya, making them more inclined to be magically oriented. But as the rest of the Vanir while we don't have lore saying they did or didn't practice magic, it certainly was not important enough to them for it to be brought up as it is with Freya. If you are looking for Norse dieties who work quite a bit with magic, working with Freya and Odin would be the most obvious places to look.

[Hærfest Leah]

If you are looking for Norse dieties who work quite a bit with magic, working with Freya and Odin would be the most obvious places to look.

Yeah I know, thanks for the quick reply.

[David19]

I also posted this in the Anglo-Saxon paganism thread, but i also think it fits here. Wiccecraeft (http://www.angelfire.com/ab4/vanic/witchlord.html), is a good site to learn about Heathen or Vanic witchcraft (i think Vanatru was the main magical part of Asatru, wasn't it?), it's not a 'how to' site, but i think it says a lot, and also the recommended reading list looks good, so you could probably learn a lot from those books.

Anyway, hope someone finds this useful.

[Hærfest Leah]

I also posted this in the Anglo-Saxon paganism thread, but i also think it fits here. Wiccecraeft (http://www.angelfire.com/ab4/vanic/witchlord.html), is a good site to learn about Heathen or Vanic witchcraft (i think Vanatru was the main magical part of Asatru, wasn't it?), it's not a 'how to' site, but i think it says a lot, and also the recommended reading list looks good, so you could probably learn a lot from those books.

Anyway, hope someone finds this useful.

Yes I already have that site but thanks anyways.

[Carla O'Harris]

Here's one for ya since it falls into the magical category. Can I get some opinions on Vanatru? I've been reading some on it.

I happen to know very well someone who is spearheading a Vanatru Movement. It is very, very different than Asatru. It emphasizes Vanir values over Aesir values. It is about peace and fertility and joy and deemphasizes martial values. Some people who call themselves Vanatru are merely partial to the Vanir but still within an Asatru framework. The Vanatru Movement is completely outside the Asatru mainstream, and highly, highly critical of Asatru values and ways of doing things.

[Mjollnir]

I happen to know very well someone who is spearheading a Vanatru Movement.
.


Am I the only one who sees the irony in using that term??


And Carla, what exactly are they critical about?

[Nantonos]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in using that term??


Maybe they should be ploughsharing it instead.

[Hærfest Leah]

haha funny


Carla,
So far what I know of Vanatru (because I have read up on it) I can understand why one would go that direction but I see no reason for anyone as you mention to be "highly, highly critical of Asatru values and ways of doing things." And to want to be that critical and have that kind of attitude toward a fellow Heathen, I'd want no part in it.

[Carla O'Harris]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in using that term??


And Carla, what exactly are they critical about?

Well, I'm happy to report here, as long as I'm not going to get drawn into polemics.

They are critical of military values, overemphasis on a culture of violence, etc. I can get more into this if anyone is interested, but I was only reporting a tendency so people can be aware of it.

[Carla O'Harris]

haha funny


Carla,
So far what I know of Vanatru (because I have read up on it) I can understand why one would go that direction but I see no reason for anyone as you mention to be "highly, highly critical of Asatru values and ways of doing things." And to want to be that critical and have that kind of attitude toward a fellow Heathen, I'd want no part in it.

I guess it's that very assessment of "fellow Heathen" which is called into crisis by a movement such as this. What constitutes a "fellow Heathen"? Is choosing a label and a particular pantheon enough to make one a fellow? Who does one consider a part of one's community and who does one not?

And, even within a given community, is critical thinking encouraged to the point where critique can be sustained without it being taken as insult?

[Mjollnir]

I guess it's that very assessment of "fellow Heathen" which is called into crisis by a movement such as this. What constitutes a "fellow Heathen"? Is choosing a label and a particular pantheon enough to make one a fellow? Who does one consider a part of one's community and who does one not?

And, even within a given community, is critical thinking encouraged to the point where critique can be sustained without it being taken as insult?


I want you to report everything you can Carla, seeing as the heathens out here have values such as: community,family,kinship,honor,your words/deeds are who you are, etc. I know of none who focuses on "military values, overemphasis on a culture of violence" as yopu mention, but you and i have already dance to that particular tune on another ocassion.

[Malcolm]

I'm actually kind of interested in this as well. I've read a little about the vanir, but never really thought about building a tradition around them.

[Carla O'Harris]

Consider that the Vanir were the primary cult over the longest period of time. Freyr was more worshipped than any other god, and Freya more beloved. Most Germanics and Scandinavians were not warriors but farmers. Their first orientation was towards the gods of the land and fertility.

[Hangatyr 13]

Consider that the Vanir were the primary cult over the longest period of time. Freyr was more worshipped than any other god, and Freya more beloved. Most Germanics and Scandinavians were not warriors but farmers. Their first orientation was towards the gods of the land and fertility.Just a little interjection here... the god of farmers is Thor. Hail Thor!:)

[David19]

I'm not much of an expert on the Vanir or Vanatru, but i never thought they were pacifist types, since on wiccecraeft (http://www.angelfire.com/ab4/vanic/witchlord.html), it says:

Ing- Freo and Ostara-Frea were mighty warriors in the myths:Ing-Freo slew the giant Beli with a stag-horn(horned god?!) and Ostara-Frea commands half the walkreis, battle maidens of war

Our Old English ancestors were not afraid to inflict violence on their enemies and those that didn't were deemed cowardly. Witches were no exception to this rule

I thought that the Vanir were more earth based than the Aesir(sp), but i don't think that means pacifist, just more in touch with the earth (and the earth can be violent at times, just look at the Tsunami, Pakistan earthquake, Katrina, etc).

[Driffinna]

I'm not much of an expert on the Vanir or Vanatru, but i never thought they were pacifist types, since on wiccecraeft (http://www.angelfire.com/ab4/vanic/witchlord.html), it says:



I thought that the Vanir were more earth based than the Aesir(sp), but i don't think that means pacifist, just more in touch with the earth (and the earth can be violent at times, just look at the Tsunami, Pakistan earthquake, Katrina, etc).

And don't forget that Nerthus accepted Human sacrifices.

Some people like to the make the Vanir peaceful, fertility gods and the Aesir were all about war and violence. Reality is they both Vanir and the Aesir had war and fertility aspects to them. As Hangatyr 13 pointed out Thor and Sif are perfect examples of fertility figures in the Aesir. And Freya, takes in half the of the slain, Frey is a warrior and Nerthus took human sacrifices, making good examples of how they weren't always so peaceful as some would like to believe. The Norse gods are so easy to pidegon hole in to neat little categories like that.

[Mjollnir]

And let's not forget Freyas temper, remember how she freaked and Bringsamen broke in the myth about how Thor dresses as her to win back me....I mean Mjollnir....? Or how she freaked in the rebuilding of the wall myth when the giant wanted the sun,moon and her if he won the bet? A wallflower or pacifist would not want to be one who gets half the battle-slain, thats an oxymoron at best.

Reality is they both Vanir and the Aesir had war and fertility aspects to them

And not to mention they were at war with each other.................

[David19]

Also, didn't the war last for ages, and was only ended with stalemate, so that doesn't seem like they're all peaceful, it sounds like they are just as powerful as the Aesir.

I'm also interested in vanatru and i'm learning a lot about it from different sites, although i haven't found many books (actually i've found no Heathen books in London, i saw one in Glastonbury, but since i don't live there, i can't get it).

[Mjollnir]

Also, didn't the war last for ages,

it didn't

and was only ended with stalemate, so that doesn't seem like they're all peaceful, it sounds like they are just as powerful as the Aesir.

it did,they werent,they are

[Hærfest Leah]

Good turn the thread has taken on how the two groups of deities are very much equals. So would you say then that people who go off to Vanatru because they say the Vanir are so different need to study the lore more? Do you think there really is any more of a magical aspect in Vanatru than Asatru?

Maybe it's just the title Asatru that gets people thinking its only geared toward the Aesir.

[Mjollnir]

Good turn the thread has taken on how the two groups of deities are very much equals. So would you say then that people who go off to Vanatru because they say the Vanir are so different need to study the lore more? Do you think there really is any more of a magical aspect in Vanatru than Asatru?

Maybe it's just the title Asatru that gets people thinking its only geared toward the Aesir.

People hear "fertility" or "earth" and have delusions of dancing around a cow in the middle of a field, reality is the Norse lived in a harsh environment and the nature of their gods tended to reflect it. I am not saying all their gods were death mongers, but lets face it, most had something to do with it in one way or another, the Vanadis herself received half and had a temper to beat the band.

[Ptah]

To me there is nothing that magic can do, that I can't do on my own.

I dabble a bit in divination vis a vi the runes...

Why? There is nothing you can divine that you can't find out by other means.

[Carla O'Harris]

People hear "fertility" or "earth" and have delusions of dancing around a cow in the middle of a field, reality is the Norse lived in a harsh environment and the nature of their gods tended to reflect it. I am not saying all their gods were death mongers, but lets face it, most had something to do with it in one way or another, the Vanadis herself received half and had a temper to beat the band.

Some might differ with this. That's all I'm saying, and it's worth reflecting that those drawn to Vanatru might have a different take on these things.

[Carla O'Harris]

With all due respect, of course.

[Mjollnir]

Some might differ with this. That's all I'm saying, and it's worth reflecting that those drawn to Vanatru might have a different take on these things.


I know they will/would and it is why I asked you to keep details coming. I find it odd that it is going on, but am interested to hear about it.

[David19]

I'm interested in learning more about Vanatru and the Vanic deities, so if anyone has any information, please keep it coming.

[Hærfest Leah]

Carla O'Harris, do you have any links for us?

[Mjollnir]

I'm interested in learning more about Vanatru and the Vanic deities, so if anyone has any information, please keep it coming.


Read up on Kvasir,Freya,Freyr and Njord, those are the only ones we have any information on.

[Hærfest Leah]

I'm interested in learning more about Vanatru and the Vanic deities, so if anyone has any information, please keep it coming.

Look for a PM from me with links in it for you.

[Mjollnir]

Look for a PM from me with links in it for you.


Or you could put it here so everyone can see.

[Hærfest Leah]

Or you could put it here so everyone can see.

Haha this is true too, remember I am blonde.lol

Here ya go, nothing fancy just some links.

Vanatru
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~fealcen/vanicve.htm (seems to not be opening today)
http://www.vanatru.com/

Vanic Deities
http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/vanir.html
http://www.thorshof.org/vanir.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanir

[Mjollnir]

Haha this is true too, remember I am blonde.lol

Here ya go, nothing fancy just some links.

Vanatru
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~fealcen/vanicve.htm (seems to not be opening today)
http://www.vanatru.com/

Vanic Deities
http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/vanir.html
http://www.thorshof.org/vanir.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanir


So whats your take on these sites?

[Mjollnir]

I see they kinda mention Nerthus, Nerthus...if I remember correctly...is more of a continental deity, although some believe it is also a hypostasis of Njord, no proof though so take it as you will.

The same goes for Gullveig, although we know of her there are those who suggest she is also Freya, Gullveig meaning "gold lover" or something close, and we all know Freyas love of things gold. I am not saying they arent the same but it would be interesting if they were, we just do not have any proof I am aware of, so until we do have proof I can say that I personally think it could be reasoned they are one in the same, it certainly made for an interesting discussion with a kinswoman of mine on the drive home from a blót in Maryland last night.

[Hærfest Leah]

I haven't gotten the chance to read everything on them. I hardly get the time. The thorshov.org site I just found thismorning so I just skimmed it. The vanic ve site doesn't look too bad & I really like timeless myths.

I don't have much to add on the rest other than what you stated on Nerthus, there isn't much evidence on her but I feel she was really worshiped. I see her usually listed in Anglo-Saxon Heathenry. Haven't studied much on Gullveig to give any opinion.

[Driffinna]

I see they kinda mention Nerthus, Nerthus...if I remember correctly...is more of a continental deity, although some believe it is also a hypostasis of Njord, no proof though so take it as you will.

The same goes for Gullveig, although we know of her there are those who suggest she is also Freya, Gullveig meaning "gold lover" or something close, and we all know Freyas love of things gold. I am not saying they arent the same but it would be interesting if they were, we just do not have any proof I am aware of, so until we do have proof I can say that I personally think it could be reasoned they are one in the same, it certainly made for an interesting discussion with a kinswoman of mine on the drive home from a blót in Maryland last night.

She was more continental, but she shared quite of a bit of the same qualities as the rest of the Vanir, which is why I tend to group her with them. Particularly in the way she was worshipped, with the whole wagon thing and all.

I heard one theory that Njord is actually Nerthus turned male, which was kind of interesting. I think that was in Davidson's book. Its been a while since I read that though.

[Mjollnir]

She was more continental, but she shared quite of a bit of the same qualities as the rest of the Vanir, which is why I tend to group her with them. Particularly in the way she was worshipped, with the whole wagon thing and all.

I heard one theory that Njord is actually Nerthus turned male, which was kind of interesting. I think that was in Davidson's book. Its been a while since I read that though.

Sure it wasn't Guerber?? :lol:

[Driffinna]

Sure it wasn't Guerber?? :lol:


Nope never read Guerber- its in Davidson's Gods and Myths of Northern Europe page 106 middle of the bottom paragraph. She doesn't site where the theory comes from though, which is annoying. It very well could be from Guerber. It is a far fetched theory.
Njord and Nerthus though are often pair up even though Nerthus is really only mentioned as being continental. I wonder where that idea orignally came from- is it written some where or is it was someone's UPG? The only two places I have read where she is mentioned so for as Tacitus and Davidson's book.

[Carla O'Harris]

There's also Heimdall, who we also know about, and who is spoken of as a Van.

Nerthus/Jord is of the Vanir.

[Carla O'Harris]

I consider the concept that Freya is Gullveig to not only be absurd, but blasphemous, absolutely blasphemous towards the Vanadis.

[mothwench]

And for the elements earth, air, fire and water didn't they use ice as a substitute for air due to what was in their physical directions? Ice north, earth east, fire south & water west.
just to confuse you even more, i was reading grimm yesterday, and was surprised to see that he listed the standard earth, air, fire and water. odd, i think. :hmmmmm:

chapter 20 elements (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/020_01.php)

teutonic mythology main index (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/index.php)

i used to think the elements were supposed to be symbols of opposing poles in the nine worlds. fire from muspelheim, ice from jotunheim, earth from midgard, and air from asgard.
but then you could argue one would have to add fog (niflheim), darkness (svartalfheim), light (ljossalfheim), and water (vanaheim). helheim is in niflheim, so i guess it has no element of its own. if it does, i couldn't imagine what it might be, other than maybe nothingness. :vanish:

[mothwench]

sorry about having steered the thread in a completely different direction. :hehehehe: carry on with the vanatru stuff, i'll be sure to read the whole thread before i post next time. :bigredblu

[Mjollnir]

I consider the concept that Freya is Gullveig to not only be absurd, but blasphemous, absolutely blasphemous towards the Vanadis.


It's out there though,like it or not.

[Hærfest Leah]

just to confuse you even more, i was reading grimm yesterday, and was surprised to see that he listed the standard earth, air, fire and water. odd, i think. :hmmmmm:

chapter 20 elements (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/020_01.php)

teutonic mythology main index (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/index.php)

i used to think the elements were supposed to be symbols of opposing poles in the nine worlds. fire from muspelheim, ice from jotunheim, earth from midgard, and air from asgard.
but then you could argue one would have to add fog (niflheim), darkness (svartalfheim), light (ljossalfheim), and water (vanaheim). helheim is in niflheim, so i guess it has no element of its own. if it does, i couldn't imagine what it might be, other than maybe nothingness. :vanish:

Your reply is welcomed. I forgot I had asked about that way earlier in the thread. lol Thanks for the info, interesting, I'll check those out.

[Hærfest Leah]

Njord and Nerthus though are often pair up even though Nerthus is really only mentioned as being continental. I wonder where that idea orignally came from- is it written some where or is it was someone's UPG? The only two places I have read where she is mentioned so for as Tacitus and Davidson's book.

In Germanic Heathenry by Coulter on page 74 he mentiond Nerthus being Freyr & Freya's mother but Nirdu/Njords sister. He quotes Tacitus and says her characteristics more resembles Njord and not that of Mother Earth since Donar/Thors mother Jord/Erda is the embodiment of Earth.

I like this page on Nerthus,
http://www.englishheathenism.homestead.com/nerthus.html

[mothwench]

Your reply is welcomed. I forgot I had asked about that way earlier in the thread. lol Thanks for the info, interesting, I'll check those out.
great, i'm glad the link was of some use to you. if you go to the index page you'll see lots more chapters that you might find helpful, like
chapter 34 magic
chapter 37 herbs and stones
chapter 38 spells and charms

i haven't read those yet, but they're next on my "to read list". :kooky:

eh... btw, grimm's teutonic mythology is a little hard to read, cause there's lots of latin and old high german with no translation. i just skip those bits and hope that someday i'll be able to read them. :lol:

[Carla O'Harris]

It's out there though,like it or not.

Very true, but it ought to be put on the right footing. Properly speaking, it is a theory not entirely supportable by the existing lore. I would consider it valid as a minoritarian viewpoint therefore. I do not know if anyone also claims to base it upon UPG. I will be demonstrating in an upcoming publication precisely why the "Gullveig = Freya" theory ought to be held as a minoritarian theory. To be more precise, when I invoke "minoritarian" here I am referring to the weight of probability of the theory based on its fidelity to the lore itself, as well as the coherence of its arguments, and not how many people hold the theory. On the basis of numbers, it is possible that the "Gullveig = Freya" theory might be majoritarian, but that would not be surprising as much of mainstream Asatru holds theories which are not as rigorously based on fidelity to the lore as well as coherence of arguments as theories which are considered by the Asatru mainstream to be "discredited" or "minoritarian".

[Mjollnir]

Very true, but it ought to be put on the right footing. Properly speaking, it is a theory not entirely supportable by the existing lore. I would consider it valid as a minoritarian viewpoint therefore. I do not know if anyone also claims to base it upon UPG. I will be demonstrating in an upcoming publication precisely why the "Gullveig = Freya" theory ought to be held as a minoritarian theory. To be more precise, when I invoke "minoritarian" here I am referring to the weight of probability of the theory based on its fidelity to the lore itself, as well as the coherence of its arguments, and not how many people hold the theory. On the basis of numbers, it is possible that the "Gullveig = Freya" theory might be majoritarian, but that would not be surprising as much of mainstream Asatru holds theories which are not as rigorously based on fidelity to the lore as well as coherence of arguments as theories which are considered by the Asatru mainstream to be "discredited" or "minoritarian".


According to Wikipedia, Turville-Petre and some others abide by that theory, but more importantly...and I was thinking of this on the ride home this afternoon from a hydraulic oil spill I had to go out on which is why I quickly referenced the Wiki article...that when you said the Frya-Gullveig idea was not only adsurd but blasphemous, the same could be said for the following.

By forming a group that according to you:

It is very, very different than Asatru. It emphasizes Vanir values over Aesir values. It is about peace and fertility and joy and deemphasizes martial values

While Freyr is considered a god of peace,to pigeon-hole him and honor him as such and either directly ignoring or avoiding the fact that peace comes at a price, the Vanir were at war for a long time and no side gained ground, the Vans were certainly not France...and lets be honest...his sword was said to be able to unsheath itself and lay waste to everything...thats carnage on a mass scale... shows he was also a warrior, which we know since it is said he also slew Beli. Being the Lord of the mound also associates him with death, he has ties to land and ancestors also but to just choose to honor some of the things about him and ignore or avoid the rest is disrespectful and ignorant.

The same can be said for Freya, being associated with sex and lust is one thing, but she gets half the slain for pete-sakes, on top of the fact the woman has a temper that would make Mike Tyson blush, as for deemphasizing marital values, what values exactly? the Aesir werent keen on the whole incest thing and there were rumors that Loki alluded to in Lokasenna of Freya sleeping with her brother...as well as other Vanic rumors of the same I think, something they were "known for"...so would incest be "ok" in their eyes?

I just think picking a sole attribute of a deity and focusing on that is a no-no and gives people a one-sided view and for whatever reason they choose to do, IMO is disrespectful.


The Vanatru Movement is completely outside the Asatru mainstream, and highly, highly critical of Asatru values and ways of doing things.



I am really curious about this, you need to get us more info.

[Mjollnir]

Very true, but it ought to be put on the right footing. Properly speaking, it is a theory not entirely supportable by the existing lore. I would consider it valid as a minoritarian viewpoint therefore. I do not know if anyone also claims to base it upon UPG. I will be demonstrating in an upcoming publication precisely why the "Gullveig = Freya" theory ought to be held as a minoritarian theory. To be more precise, when I invoke "minoritarian" here I am referring to the weight of probability of the theory based on its fidelity to the lore itself, as well as the coherence of its arguments, and not how many people hold the theory. On the basis of numbers, it is possible that the "Gullveig = Freya" theory might be majoritarian, but that would not be surprising as much of mainstream Asatru holds theories which are not as rigorously based on fidelity to the lore as well as coherence of arguments as theories which are considered by the Asatru mainstream to be "discredited" or "minoritarian".


Is your publication going to be available online?

[Carla O'Harris]

Hej Mjollnir,

I'll let you know when that publication will be available. That is a project presently on a back burner as I'm working on a book about Wicca as well as a book about Lodur and Sol, although it is possible that the essay might be included as a part of that project. I'll let you know when it's available.

And keeping in mind that I'm quite busy and don't have much time to devote to it, I'll see if I can dredge some of the Vanatru Movement materials. Be patient with that.