Degrees...

[Elfa Wylde]

Ok, I'm not exactly a "new" pagan, however I am new to the idea of being in a coven. I've read some about it but I'm lost on something. Now, I do realise that most can't actually go into great detail on much, but here's the question and ANY answers I get will be helpful I'm sure.

I understand what must be learned to earn a first degree (generalised of course) But what should be known fo a second and third degrees?
Do these degrees simply go deeper into the specific tradition? Are they specializations in certain areas?

Hopefully someone can tell me.

Thanks in advance!

[Lunacie]

I've never belonged to a traditional coven, but I think first degree is a recognition of self-knowledge. Second and third degrees relate to being able to share that knowledge with others, and being an effective group leader. But I'm sure there is much, much more to it than that.

[DebLipp]

It depends entirely on the coven and the tradition.

Here are some examples I've seen:

1st: Beginner
2nd: Having attained basic knowledge (Wicca 101)
3rd: Fully functional as a witch/priest(ess)

or

1st: Having attained basic knowledge (Wicca 101)
2nd: Advanced, able to lead under supervision, work as deputies in the group
3rd: Fully autonomous, a leader, able to hive

or

1st: Advanced beyond basic knowledge
2nd: Fully autonomous, a leader, able to hive
3rd: Honorary, for service to the community or the gods

There are other possible scenarios.

[yavanna]

I agree with Deb. The most common system I've seen is the second one she outlined, but I've known people from groups that used the other two as well.

[Kendrah]

1st: Advanced beyond basic knowledge
2nd: Fully autonomous, a leader, able to hive
3rd: Honorary, for service to the community or the gods

Our tradition is like this fashion, only seconds aren't able to hive. They are able to have their own groves, though, which are fully autonomous and are the leader. They have to be a third to have the "title" of coven, though.

[Raven Reed]

In my coven, there are certain mystical experiences you must undergo to pass to second and third degrees, besides being able to lead ritual or run a group. I find the leading of ritual much easier than the rites, which is why I have not yet progressed to my second degree.

[Kendrah]

In my coven, there are certain mystical experiences you must undergo to pass to second and third degrees, besides being able to lead ritual or run a group. I find the leading of ritual much easier than the rites, which is why I have not yet progressed to my second degree.

Yeah, no kidding. Same with mine. For second, it's said you go into the dark time of your life, where you come up against all your fears and such. It's an experience that someone can't force into happening, it jsut happens. So really, after first, you can't petition for higher degree's.

[Ivy Artemisia]

It depends on the tradition... my coven is most like Debs definition here:

1st: Having attained basic knowledge (Wicca 101)
2nd: Advanced, able to lead under supervision, work as deputies in the group
3rd: Fully autonomous, a leader, able to hive

I've found that the people themselves tend to change greatly as they progress through our degree system. In my group, each person is expected to advance to the second degree, though 3rd degree isn't expected of everyone. Not everyone wants to (or has the midset to) lead.

[Elfa Wylde]

WOW! thank you ALL for your input so far!

This has been very enlightening. A few of you mentioned having certain things happen to you.. or things you must experience, if these things are as mystical as implied, how do you "prove" you've been through them? or are they really THAT life changing?

[juliaki]

or are they really THAT life changing?

After seeing "before" and "after" on quite a few folks, I can say that the people around you can tell a difference.

[Raven Reed]

WOW! thank you ALL for your input so far!

This has been very enlightening. A few of you mentioned having certain things happen to you.. or things you must experience, if these things are as mystical as implied, how do you "prove" you've been through them? or are they really THAT life changing?


In my coven you go through them during circle as part of the service. Talk about stage fright! Not only do you have the stress of a life changing experience, but what if it fails and everyone sees it??? Like I said, I haven't exactly made my way to second degree yet.

[Kendrah]

This has been very enlightening. A few of you mentioned having certain things happen to you.. or things you must experience, if these things are as mystical as implied, how do you "prove" you've been through them? or are they really THAT life changing?

Depends on the tradition. Some lously tired string of wiccans that have "mysteries" won't be as strong as a tranition that is 50 or 60 years strong. However, in my experience, you can tell. You don't have to "prove" them. Once you go through the act, you'll always be able to see it when it comes around on someone else. So yeah, I do think they are THAT life changing. When you get drug through your hell, it's hard to come out the other end the same (because if you want to come out the other end, you've got to change...)

[Jenett]

A few of you mentioned having certain things happen to you.. or things you must experience, if these things are as mystical as implied, how do you "prove" you've been through them? or are they really THAT life changing?

This is part of why group interaction is/should be part of degree systems (assuming that they're more than 'have completed these written requirements).

You can't prove it to someone on demand. Someone who knows you and who has worked closely with you, however, can see those shifts over time. They can also see the choices you make day to day.

I'm working towards my 2nd right now. Last night, one of my group mates found out a relative died. There are things I did for her last night that are *so* not how I'd have handled it a year ago, or two year ago, or before my initiation. Not just magically, but in how I approached what she needed, what I thought might help.

And, there's the "Gah, it's past 9 at night, and I really need sleep, but this thing is more important that that." factor (Even though I have an insanely busy week, and do very badly on low sleep - I need 8, and last night I got under 5.5)

But part of that shift - for me, for other people I've talked to - is how you do what you have to do. You can't prove that quickly, usually. It's about ongoing choices, ongoing worldview, etc.

[DebLipp]

WOW! thank you ALL for your input so far!

This has been very enlightening. A few of you mentioned having certain things happen to you.. or things you must experience, if these things are as mystical as implied, how do you "prove" you've been through them? or are they really THAT life changing?
It is the leaders' job to observe you and see what's what. You can't "prove" you're a grown-up, either. :kooky:

People sometimes approach the coven experience like it's a class you take, and at the end, there's a final, and you pass or fail. But in a Traditional coven, it's not that at all; it's personal. You're not a student so much as an apprentice, and the quality of your master-piece is judged by the master (in this case, HPS/HP).

[Ben Gruagach]

One other thing to keep in mind about degrees and titles is that they are really only relevant within the specific group where they are granted (whether that's a single coven or a specific sect, denomination, or tradition of covens linked together.) A person who is a third-degree initiate in one group or system should not expect the title to mean much to people in other groups or traditions.

[Kudzu]

As has been said already, it varies with Tradition. The length of time expected at each degree can also vary depending on the goals of the individual and the Coven. I've learned about the degree systems of three Traditions in my area. In some Traditions, one is expected to progress through all of the degrees (though of course life can get in the way,) while in others it would not be odd for one to stay at specific degrees for a lifetime. In none of them, to my knowledge, are people expected to choose any kind of specialty, however. But since I am not an Initiate, you can take my B.S. with a grain of salt. Each Tradition had different expectations for responsibilities added at each degree.

[MorningDove030202]

I was invited to attend a friend's initation though I'm not a member, just a good friend of hers. Initation is the only time her trad requires one to be skyclad, there was a trial where she was asked to give up parts of her self that are important, there was a symbolic death (she was burried under alot of blankets) and then her HP and HPS channeled their Lord and Lady which she spoke to, and then she was symbolicly returned to life and they dressed her and tied her first degree cord around her like a belt. Of course I'm skipping alot of details here, but I belive this is the general outline for any wiccan initiation, give or take the skyclad part.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

I agree, for example, the first degree initation my friend had was probably more equivelent to a Witchschool 2nd degree, and from speaking to her about it, every time there is a new person in training for their 1st degree the work and study gets more challenging. The standards are constantly being raised. But some of that makes sence since people are beginning to study at a younger age (As compared to 20 years ago), and also some people are being raised Wiccan, so 1st degree materials would have to become more challengeing to catch up.
Dove


One other thing to keep in mind about degrees and titles is that they are really only relevant within the specific group where they are granted (whether that's a single coven or a specific sect, denomination, or tradition of covens linked together.) A person who is a third-degree initiate in one group or system should not expect the title to mean much to people in other groups or traditions.

[DebLipp]

I was invited to attend a friend's initation though I'm not a member, just a good friend of hers. Initation is the only time her trad requires one to be skyclad, there was a trial where she was asked to give up parts of her self that are important, there was a symbolic death (she was burried under alot of blankets) and then her HP and HPS channeled their Lord and Lady which she spoke to, and then she was symbolicly returned to life and they dressed her and tied her first degree cord around her like a belt. Of course I'm skipping alot of details here, but I belive this is the general outline for any wiccan initiation, give or take the skyclad part.

Dove
It is extremely unusual to have someone attend an initiation who is not, themselves, an initiate. So, I wouldn't count on this initiation being in any way typical, although it sounds like it was a lovely ceremony.

[MorningDove030202]

Considering that she was the first member in her coven to be initated (asside from the HP and HPS) there were many there who haven't been initated. Her trad is rather unique (cutting edge if you ask me) in their organization, I admit, but it seams to make sence to me to have close friends invited. I'd want my husband (non wiccan) at my initation, and if he wasn't alowed, I'd have a problem with that. It was an inspiring ceremony, I had some vivid dreams about it that night which leads me to believe it's a path I would also like to take.

Dove


It is extremely unusual to have someone attend an initiation who is not, themselves, an initiate. So, I wouldn't count on this initiation being in any way typical, although it sounds like it was a lovely ceremony.

[Morgandria]

There's not many initiates in my coven and sister coven, either - only about 5 - but they are still the only ones who can attend initiation rituals. I think your experience is both unique and rare - I've never heard of non-initiates attending initiation rituals before.

My understanding of the initiatory process is that certain Mysteries are opened and the initiatory candidate is brought to or through them, whatever they may be - and that experience is life-altering, transformative, and powerful. I am not sure I'd want people who haven't experienced that, and don't know what to expect, to be present in that ritual. I'm also not sure I'd want people who don't understand the fullness of the symbolism present - it would have an effect on the ritual resonance, I'd imagine.

Also, since what goes on is usually oathbound, those not of that initiatory level shouldn't know the process anyway and thus wouldn't be able to witness it. If it's not an oathbound tradition I guess it doesn't matter, in that
sense.

[juliaki]

I also can't imagine having non-initiates present at an initiation or having people of lesser degree at elevation ceremonies. A good example of that, over Hallows the coven I've dedicated to had five elevations occuring (three 2nds and two 3rds). The only people who were at the 3rd degree elevations were 3rd degrees within that tradition, equivalent degreed high priests and high priestesses from "cousin covens", and the two people being elevated. For the 2nds, only 2nds and 3rds were permitted. Yes, that meant that a lot of us had to sit around waiting for several hours before we came in for the main rite, but the idea of showing up for someone else's initiation or elevation when I've not experienced those mysteries with my own new eyes feels very uncomfortable to even think about.

I hadn't realized that other groups allow spectators to show up for their "mysteries" until I was flipping through one of Silver Ravenwolf's books to confirm something for someone and a passage caught my eye about how her husband got to go to her elevation because he just happened to be around the house. The idea simply boggled my mind. That being said, my boyfriend will likely attend my initiation. He's an initiate in that line. On the other hand, if one of us ends up being elevated and the other has not been elevated, there's no way the non-elevated person would be a part of it (aside from handling the after-party cooking!).

[talamh]

[QUOTE=Elfa Wylde]WOW! thank you ALL for your input so far!

A few of you mentioned having certain things happen to you.. or things you must experience, if these things are as mystical as implied, how do you "prove" you've been through them?

It is something that needs no "proof". When it happens to you, you will recognize it for what it is. So will others who are part of your journey. Much depends on how you learn - in a Circle/coven; with a teacher; solitary; and on whether you work in a hierarchy or by concensus. In our Circle people learn by doing as well as studying. When a person is ready to ask for an initiation it is usually something that is agreed on by other members of the Circle. Our Circle is eclectic and "borrows" from many different traditions while at the same time, remaining open to inspiration and "magic" that results in growing into some "new" traditions of our own.

There is no set number of degrees with us. When a Circle member feels that s/he has grown into significant new levels of knowledge and understanding, s/he can aks for an initiation. We find that for a year and a day after an initiation some very interesting and challenging things happen to the initiate so it's not something to be entered in to lightly.

But generally different degrees are only as useful as a person wants them to be. There are many paths up the mountain.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, mine is the second one that Deb lists:
1st: Having attained basic knowledge (Wicca 101)
2nd: Advanced, able to lead under supervision, work as deputies in the group
3rd: Fully autonomous, a leader, able to hive
which seems like a pretty common one.

As far as my group goes, we don't allow non-initiates to observe initiations (or those of lower degrees to observe elevations). Not only does that defeat the surprise and uncertainty, but one can hardly pass on the Big Secrets TM when who knows who else is there ;). We usually have an "after-party" so to speak where everyone is invited regardless of degree. When we (my brothers and I) were younger, we'd play outside or upstairs until it was done. I was involved in my older brother's first degree to the extent that I stood outside and kept guard (it was in a cave, and we were to prevent spelunkers from wandering in and interrupting; "get ye gone, cowan"... no, I'm just teasing, I didn't say that.) But that's about it.

It varies coven by coven of course, but my coven doesn't so much have a set list of things to attain before elevation, though at least one of our sister covens does. In that one, there was a list of areas, I think, in which one needed to show proficiency. Though I think one could specialize (like distribution requirements). For example, if a person was interested in herbs, then for first degree, they needed to be able to identify x common herbs and give a basic overview of their properties, second degree would require more advanced knowledge of different species and their magical (and medicinal) properties. I don't know what they required for third, but theirs was particularly stringent.

By contrast, ours doesn't have a list or tests; our level of advancement is gauged more on how well we converse on various topics, how skillful we are, how confident we are at taking on roles, and how we deal with situations. It's more subjective, true, but it's not really any less serious or stringent. We end up with more 3rd degrees than our sister coven, but that's really because we are much less prone to 'hiving' off. I think the only split we've made was in '85 or '86 or something (hey, I was a toddler; I don't remember it).

Anyway, it really depends. (I know this is a couple weeks old, but it was a good question so I wanted to jump in... )

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Modesty]

I know this is quite an old post but I just had to agree that it is very unusual. Back in California, I had originally started attending some study classes with some Alexandrians/Gardnerians/BTW's and participated in an open circle on a few occasions. But I soon strayed towards the Georgian tradition. Now even though I was of a different trad, I was still friends with (and still am) those of the Alex/Gard/BTW's. I was informed that one of the members was going through her first degree initiation and that I was welcome to come and celebrate afterwards. I did of course. I brought a salad dish and we all ate and I congratulated her. But I was NOT invited into circle because I was not a part of that tradition. If I WAS part of that coven and had not had my first degree, then I could not have sat in circle.


It is extremely unusual to have someone attend an initiation who is not, themselves, an initiate. So, I wouldn't count on this initiation being in any way typical, although it sounds like it was a lovely ceremony.

[HetHert]

Modesty the Necromancer raising threads from the dead! LOL Now it's gonna have to eat some brains! :uhhuhuh:

[Modesty]

mmmm brains!!!

[iceskater12]

From what I have seen it is path specific during or after the first degree. So it depends on which path you are choosing.

Good luck :thumbsup:

[Astara Seague]

From what I have seen it is path specific during or after the first degree. So it depends on which path you are choosing.

Good luck :thumbsup:and which group you are in... if you are in one that is
Ours is pretty much the same as this one


1st: Having attained basic knowledge (Wicca 101)
2nd: Advanced, able to lead under supervision, work as deputies in the group
3rd: Fully autonomous, a leader, able to hive

[Lunacie]

From what I have seen it is path specific during or after the first degree. So it depends on which path you are choosing.

Good luck :thumbsup:

So many familiar icons that haven't been seen in a long-long time. Interesting thread bumps of some very old threads.

Yes, it certainly depends on what religion, what path, what tradition, and of course may not even be relevant if you're working solitary instead of with a group.



and which group you are in... if you are in one that is
Ours is pretty much the same as this one

Hm, pretty much what I said back at the beginning of the thread but in different words. :uhhuhuh:

[Deerwoman]

For most of my local Wiccan covens the degree systems are the same:


Dedicant - Learning Wicca 101, lots of homework and "servicing" jokes
1st Degree - Learning and practicing Wicca 202, will be more involved in ritual, and may have to help teach the dedicants.
2nd Degree - You are now a Priest or Priestess, expected to lead rituals, teach the first degrees, and be involved in the local community.
3rd Degree - You are now The High Priest or Priestess and can found your own coven and hive off from the original - lots of responsibility and teaching involved - the community will view you as an "elder" and expect you to host events.

For the local Heathen and Druidic groups there are no degrees, but instead have levels or "roles" in their respective groups - i.e. law speaker, Witan, bard, ovate/healer, Druid/priest... etc

In many non-wiccan witchcraft traditions there are no degrees, but simply an initiation where you are now a member of the tradition's family and are party to all their collective knowledge and practices. This type of initiation is considered equivalent to attaining a third degree in Wicca, with the difference being the years of study and practice come after, not before initiation.

[Darth Brooks]

In our coven we only recognize three degrees at present: (1) Novice, which is when somebody first joins and we have to teach them everything we know, (2) Member, which is when somebody has demonstrated that they possess a working understanding of the belief system and can successfully conduct their own private rituals and/or lead group ones, and (3) Scribe, which is when a person has such a good understanding of our system that they can devise new rituals/practices/forms for it almost instantly. (Due to the emphasis in our faith on khepher, we like to keep the coven in an atmosphere of "best possible premises" and it is always open to improvement and refinement, including the degrees of membership.) There is no rule which says that Members have to eventually become Scribes, but if a Novice is unable to reach the Second Degree within at least two years, we think it's only fair to them if we let them go and wish them well in some other faith or group, because they obviously aren't getting what they need from us. We do not recognize anything by way of an authoritative priesthood, and there is no high priest or priestess.

We also take the word "occult" very seriously and we do not allow non-initiates to participate in or even witness our rituals - though we might be willing to make an exception for the right person, but since nobody in the coven holds absolute power over anyone else, it would have to be put to an unanimous vote. (We have, in fact, gained a few honorary members as a result of this, but these people do not necessarily agree with or practice our beliefs. They just happen to be people with whom we think Set is particularly strong somehow, in ways they themselves may not see.) Pretty much everything, policy-wise at least, is determined by unanimous vote - which would be problematic if our membership was too large, but since it isn't, it works out nicely. (And, Set willing, we'd like to keep it this way.)

[Morgaine_cla]

Greetings,

I suspect that the way we work will be quite different to what most here are accustomed to do, but that's why I am posting it, I guess. As far as I am aware, this information has never before appeared in print except in our own internal publications and traditional training.

In Avalonian Druidry we acknowledge two kinds of members: "Tribes" and "Druids". Tribes members are those seeking to establish a personal Avalonian spiritual practice with participation in a spiritual community, but whose life commitments preclude them from completing intensive Druid studies. Tribes members undergo and officiate various Rites of Passage; those with a gift may work with a spiritual Patron/ess and be called to dedicate a Craft to the Gods. It is these members who make many of our ritual jewellery and tools.

Druid members are divided into three types according to levels of attainment:


Novices ("Initiates" whom the Gods and Ancestors have accepted as candidates for investiture), who study for 7 years;
Apprentices (Intermediate level students), who are apprenticed to a Mentor for 7 years; and
Mentors (fully invested Druids en route to mastering their skills), who actively serve in the greater community for 7 years before earning the title "Elder".

Mentoring Elders undergo a special initiation rite to discover their "path to greatness" within the Order. This path requires intensive study and practice of one of three disciplines:


Pathwalker;
Singer; or

Dreamer.

The three disciplines are not merely different names for the three Neodruid grades ("Bard, Ovate, and Druid"). They do not represent different Orders, nor are their duties separate from one another. Each learns the same basic skills, but they use them in very different ways and to different ends, according to the role and focus of the discipline within our spiritual community. Each complements the other like the facets of one gem.

Well, I don't know if any of this will make sense to you but feel free to ask questions, if you have them, and I'll do my best to answer. Thank you for sharing your own ways and practices.

Bendithion

[Son of Goddess]

This is my coven's hierarchical structure:

Congregational Participants: the technical term we use in our by-laws for our incorporated status, but we just call them 'groupies' lol, they're just the people that always come to our open rituals, social events and so on.

Petitioners: Those who have filled out a detailed membership petition and are fulfilling the requirements of being a petitioner; must have completed a Wicca 101 class and, obviously, attended an event of ours.

Affiliates: This is what most groups refer to as the "Outer Circle", we had used that system but issues arose and so we had to make some alterations. Affiliates are those individuals who have fulfilled their petitioner requirements and are voted by the coven to be as such. Affiliates spend 6 months attending a learning circle once a month, a faith-based discussion circle once a month, and must attend a given number of open Esbats. At the end of that 6 months, the individual may choose to go solitary or pursue actual membership. Coven votes and decides their fate, lol.

Dedicant: The status of an individual who has been voted in and has undergone our dedication ceremony. They begin their studies to attain first degree. They must lead at least 1 Sabbat ritual and 1 Esbat ritual (which is actually 2, the open ritual as well as our closed Esbat).

Then we have the usual First Degree, Second Degree and Third Degree. The highest living rank is Elder, the only other rank above Eldership is Ancient One, and you have to die to get that one, haha.