general question about people and beliefs.

[Lucidia]

if you grow up believing a certain thing. and you have believed that thing your whole life.... let's say... that you believe that you should dance with apples.

and then someone tells you that you are wrong...

how does that make you feel? probably not too good. you have danced with apples for years and years. you know it's right. it's ALL YOU KNOW. and aren't people notoriously afraid of change? it's ALL YOU UNDERSTAND. and aren't people notoriously afraid of what they don't understand?

now.

if your beliefs say it's WRONG do something... let's say... dance with oranges.

and people that dance with oranges come up to you...and ask you why you dance with apples instead of oranges... well.. its' because it's WRONG to dance with oranges.

now.

it doesn't mean that the people that danced with the oranges are really wrong.

so why do the people who dance with the oranges hold so much contempt for the person who dances with apples?

why do people get so very angry because the apple dancers are ignorant of the orange dancers path?

i think... this is a very imporantant issue.

[Myst]

what she said!

Especially if the orange dancers are jumping around going on about how they believe people should dance with any fruit they want to?

[lucidfire]

what if one person's eating the fruit somebody else wants to dance with?

[Lavender]

:D And that's when you have the holy wars.

Great analogy, Lucidia!

[flar7]

not all oranges, maybe not even most, would necessarily believe
that you should dance with any fruit you want to.

Most orange dancers would be trying to save those poor apple
dancers from becoming baked! AT ANY COST!

and while the orangers try to save the applers and the applers
try to hold their own... the grape dancers inherit the earth!

[Laiste]

If the apples and oranges fight their war and the grapes inherit the Earth...then what shall become of the banana bunch...there are far less bananas in a bunch then their are grapes!! There are those who prefer one fruit over the other...and then there are those who don't like the taste of fruit whatsoever! It's simply a matter of personal taste!:D One should not be judged by the fruits that they choose to consume or dance with!! :sunny:

[Danustouch]

Okay...lets' not digress into a Just Silly thread ;)

I think that Lucidia's point is very valid. So I'm going to answer that...

I think, Lucidia, that the problems resulting from such situations, are mostly because most of us are so extremely emotionally attached, and wound up in our belief systems.

I really try not to bash "Oranges" or "Apples" in my own life. However, when someone shows an intolerant, or ignorant attitude toward us (and I'm saying ignorant as in.."Without Knowledge or Understanding of something)...it's triggers an emotional response.

First, you have the inherant fear within individuals of being an outcast. Not being accepted, approved of, thought of as worthy, capable, intelligent, etc. Secondly, you have the emotional triggers to "Other" memories apples might have, of being ummm...baked...perhaps? And Lastly...every emotional event, triggers memories of similar emotional events, that have happened in our lives.

Let me give you an example. Person A, says that they like to dance with Apples. Person B, says dancing with apples is Wrong. So..Person A remembers the time that they were ridiculed, and picked on at school, for dancing with apples. They remember the time their parents forbid them from going to meet an apple, for a dance. They Remember being followed around by an Orange Dancer, for a long time in their life, their actions being watched, finding "Pro-Orange Dancing" pamphlets on their doorstep, every single day, with pictures of slain apples included. They remember having to leave their hometown, or their college, or their family home, because the people there did not understand their affinity for apples.

Now...Person B in the scenario, might not have done any of these things, nor intended to do any of these things, nor harmed person A in any way shape or form. They may have simply been stating their opinion. However....Person A remembers all of these horrible things that happened to them, or for that matter, someone they love. And they start feeling emotions of fear. Of pain. When all they want in life, is to feel understood, and respected, regardless of which fruit they choose to dance with.

Now..It might be wrong for Person A to launch a counter attack against Person B, or even the other Orange dancers. But..you can't necessarily fault Person A, for his emotions, either.

In an ideal world, it wouldn't hurt us no matter what people said about us. And in an ideal world, opinions would simply be opinions. But..it's not an ideal world. We are sensitive to things, and people have emotional needs, for whatever reason, to be approved of, validated, respected, etc. Likewise, it's also not an ideal world, because sometimes, peoples opinions, in this world, are followed up by heinous actions. Such as crimes of bigotry, hatred, and violence.

The people who Killed Matthew Shepherd, for instance, started out by having an "Opinion" that Homosexuality was wrong. Hitler started out with an "Opinion" that Jews were Inferior, and BobbyJoe from Arkansas who went and burned a cross on someones lawn, and threw a brick into a window of a house, hitting a small child, started off with an "Opinion" that Blacks were taking all of the Jobs in the state. Do you see what I mean. Opinions, are something we all have. And we are all ALLOWED to have. However, sometimes, opinions can be carried too far. They can become ACTIONS which support those opinions. And to the people on the down side of those opinions, there is reason for fear. Not to mention, just pain.

So...I don't believe in fighting fire with fire, necessarily. But sometimes, people need to vent their fears, and frustrations, and say.."Hey..it really bothered me today when an Orange Eater said *-------* to me."

It's human.

We just have to be careful not to make wild accusations, harmful statements, and reverse bash the Orange Dancers :)

[Laiste]

Danu, I can't speak for anyone else...but I for one was not trying to be silly...just making my point using Lucidia's anology...I think it is a great way to discuss the subject without naming names!:)

[mol]

Great analogy. A point I have tried to get clear for a long time. Thanks Lucidia.

[StormChaser]

An analogy that still doesn't seem to address yet another point of view on the whole theme which is getting completely ignored.

It's not the beliefs some of us have problems with, but the method of teaching.

I didn't like my dads way of handling teaching *this is why he got ignored most of my life* and i certainly don't like my grandmothers way of teaching *she gets ignored too*

That being "I am right, because I am older, This is right, because I say so, Everything Else is BAD and EVIL because What I believe says so.. right here on this page.. and nothing else matters"

Don't forget: My father is wiccan, my grandmother is catholic.
Do the math. Its not the people or the belief its the way of teaching.

Read matilda sometime... everyone can understand that book.
Then you'll get where Some of us without nameing names are coming from.

*i personally think not nameing names and being upfront and frank with people is a mark of cowardice, and analogies like fruits and vegetables are sort of like spelling things to another adult because the two year old doesn't get it yet as a means to avoid dealing with the issue of the kid being pain in the butt*

[Laiste]

OR...maybe using analogies is just another way to have a discussion! Plain and simple. I don't think there is anything cowardice about it.

On the other note...people spell things in front of their children because there are certain things a child should simply not hear at that moment! Don't know if you have children...but this really works

Your point of view was not being ignored...no one else mentioned it because it is YOUR point of view...not ours. By the way I agree with your point of view. I have been having some issues with my sister in law because she was "taught" in her new church that all people who are not Christian will go to hell! As well as my Aunt who just refuses to believe that I'm not going "back to Christianity"!

Oh well:rolleyes:

[Wyrdsister]

Lucidia my dear, you continue to ROCK MY WORLD!! :heartthro :heartthro :heartthro

Thank you, thank you, thank you! *HUG*

Wyrdsister

[StormChaser]

perhaps ignored was rather the wrong word.. but i could find no other for "continually misunderstood no matter how many times one trys to explain it, no matter how they try to explain it"

Another note on analgoies.. doesn't anyone elses head start spinning after the third or fourth time an analogy is twisted or turned.. after about.. the second post it just started getting a bit rediculous. My scorn regarding analogies is that the statement that went along with the Hurrah about using one to relate a point in a mannor that could easily be seen, was that it "didn't point out names". I dunno about anyone else here, but i always figured the quickest way to solve any disagreement is to go to the source and "face" the problem head on rather than beat around the bush for hours or days.

And as far as not having children.. generally I'd agree, but when you've been a live in nanny, as well as been responsible for much of the upbringing of 7 children as I have, you get a bit of an idea on what it's like to be a parent.

There are times the spelling technique should be used, the times i think it is retarded to use are to avoid things that are problematic because you can't put your foot down. IE: "I think it's a little late to have I-C-E-C-R-E-A-M right before B-E-D"
Because the child will hear ice cream and have a fit this almost pampers the notion of your child having power over you with their tantrums. Every parent has a different technique, this is just another method that I personally do not condone nor use in my teaching methods. And that concludes my point of view.

I think i'm just gonna put that in my signature "disclaimer: this is just my point of view"

[Myst]

If you judge the entire belief of dancing with fruit by one person who teaches the dance a certain way that's YOUR loss.

flar I don't know how much of that post was joking or not, but since nobody gets baked for dancing with whatever fruit they want then maybe people who do dance should mind their own business rather then pretend they're "saving" someone. And that goes *both* ways.

[flar7]

that those orange dancers BELEIVE that the apple dancers are
gonna be baked cause thats what they were taught. Not even
implying that its so. I can ill afford to judge anyone with my
checkered past! LOL

No offense was intended, only explanation for some of the
southern oranges belief systems.

[Myst]

The apples think the oranges will get baked, and vice versa, and yet there is NO BAKING. NOOOO APPLE PIE FOR US. *ahem* :D

[Myst]

No no I see what you mean, it's just frustrating when the orange dancers *do* say in one breath that a dancer should dance with any fruit they want to, *then* in the next breath make negative comments or insult the apple dancers. It makes me sad :(

[flar7]

but now I am gettin a hankerin fer a fruit salad!!! LOL

[Myst]

hehe not me, I just want my chocolate ;)

[flar7]

they make orange chocolate!! its scrumpt-dilly-umptious!

[Myst]

And chocolate oranges! Mmm... :)

(psst if anyone would like to get this thread back on topic go nuts!) :)

[StormChaser]

Undoubtedly someone has or will at some point come into your life, categorize or label themselves as an affiliate with some group or denomination and you may find yourself completely unattracted to their persona or beliefs.

If you or I were people who made a judgement on all, based on the actions, beliefs, or persona of one, we would therefore; undoubtedly; live our lives as cold hermits locked away in rooms far away from anyone and everything.

You are obviously not such a person, please do not assume that I am. I am most certainly, without a doubt, 100% NOT.

I do not judge by religious category any more than i judge by what type of food someone eats, what color socks they wear, or how many apples they wish to dance with. It is not mine, nor anyone elses place to judge anyone in reality. Only to judge whether or not they can withstand being in the presence of, or having dealings with people with differences.

I dislike being in the company of people, regardless of their faith, who teach anything in such a manner as I have previously described. I feel sorry for those who have still yet to find a love of their religion stronger than their fear of it or their unfounded piety of it. I also decline to force myself to suffer through lectures from people I dislike or cannot withstand. Rather than to bash them. That does not mean that on occaision I do not hear something stated in passing that makes me cringe, that I may later desire to laugh off or poke fun at later as a form of "getting over" the shock and "disgust" of the statement made. No one is perfect, I most certainly am not. But I hurt none in discussing my feelings or views, shock, or dismay, with others of like mind. Tact is of the essense. One must know when it is proper to say certain things, and take into account the feelings of others. But sometimes walking on eggshells is just taking things a bit to far, and can be of detriment to oneself in the end.

taking this Slightly off topic but not too off topic..

I am sure, that many pagans, wiccans, sometimes need a sounding board to voice their amused, bemused, and also their horrified shock, blatantly with others. It is kind of depressing to think that everyone has to always be so PC here. Afraid to voice their thoughts because of "harm none" and all the PC patrollers here. Illuminatus has some of the biggest brass balls I've seen here. Just being "an a$$" simply because sometimes SOMEONE has to do it to remind everyone that we are still PEOPLE.

It's kinda funny how it seems everytime someone has something that upsets them that may relate to other people or the follys of other people, someone take that persons moment of need to ven and convert it into a "how can you think that way" "that's so cruel" "thats so hypocritical" debate. rather than just letting them be expressive and truly entitled to their opinion, rather than sending them to PC auschwitz.

If everyone is so darn entitled to their opinion, why does anyone bother to say "I disagree blah blah blah blah?" It really doesn't make sense to open the gates of debate if there isn't an election going on.

[Myst]

You state your opinion, I state mine. I'm not going to stifle my opinion because you think it's "pc aushwitz" anymore then you are because I disagree lol

[StormChaser]

Finally a light hearted yet practical answer.

[Lucidia]

my point is, if orange dancers claim to be so very open minded about dancing with various fruits...

i find it funny that orange dancers make just as many comments about how stupid apple dancers are, just because apple dancers aren't always open minded.

we also have the oh so grand problem of the orange dancers passing judgement on ALL apple dancers based on the actions or words of ONE (or a few) apple dancers.

no matter what the excuse, i think, negative feelings will only lead to more negative feelings.

and the biggest point it... we're ALL DANCING WITH FRUIT. so even if the fruit is a different color, or tastes different, or the steps in the dance lead us in different directions....

it's still fruit. so we're not really that different.

[Lucidia]

and. i used an analogy, because this applies in all directions.

i used fruit because we're all familiar with fruit and it's differences (unless you've never eaten fruit, in which case, i recommend it, it's really good), and most likely familiar with dancing even if we've never danced.

yes, it can make your head spin. but that's only if you concentrate on the substitutions, rather than the actual point.

people grow up learning whatever they learn. are they wrong for not learning everything? who is really to blame?

how can you hold ignorance against someone? how many people even use the word "ignorant" the right way?

Ignorant- Lacking or displaying a lack of education or knowledge. Not Aware: Uninformed.

Ignorant doesn't mean "stupid" or "hate-driven".

This doesn't mean that I enjoy listening to the rambling nonesense that ignorance gives birth to. However, i can't BLAME someone for not knowing something. I can't expect everyone to have the motivation to read piles of books.

I doubt very much that every pagan in this community has fully read the bible, the quran (even though you're not supposed to read it if its' not arabic), the torah (which is supposed to remain in hebrew if i'm not mistaken), or texts outlining the tao, the pillars of buddhism, or even texts such as the Satanic Bible.

Yeah, some of you may have. Good for you.

but in consideration. If YOU dont' know everything about someones religion, you might reasonably make an untrue "ignorant" statement about their religion, or think they are silly, or that some of the things that they do are pointless.

And keeping that in mind, imagine how the situation worsens as the rules of a certain path actually FORBID learning about other paths.

Sounds horrible, but religion is a business in many cases. If you found out that you could get higher pay and more benefits at another job, woudln't you leave? Many would, so the leaders of many religious organizations need to protect their flock.

Is it right? I dunno. Not really my position to say. I dont' agree with it, but well. it's life.

I could rant forever. But the whole point is, i dont' want to start naming names because people will get offended. This isn't supposed to offend people. It's not supposed to say that someone is wrong or right. It's supposed to make you think.

[Lily Mai]

I just want you to know that my brain really, really hurts now. But I think that the problem is that some orange dancers (not many anymore I don't think) can't see flexablity in their beliefs. They can't believe that the kinda dances that applied hundreds of years ago, need to be adapted for today.

[Illuminatus]

Well, what if Oranges excrete a sort of toxin that can hurt you?

That sort of makes the Apple dancers right, doesn't it.

There's nothing wrong with hardcoding in basic protocols into your young. As long as there's a really good reasoning behind it. Programming random, purposeless intolerance is wrong though.

- Ill

[Angelwulfe]

this ananology dose make my head spin but it makes a good point, thats the point of ananologies right? to make a good point. it's good because it adresses an important issue but it dosn't personally attack specific people. in other words it's still fallowing the basic rule of respect. well done lucidia.:)

[Lunamoth]

Originally posted by Lucidia
how can you hold ignorance against someone? how many people even use the word "ignorant" the right way?

Ignorant- Lacking or displaying a lack of education or knowledge. Not Aware: Uninformed.

Ignorant doesn't mean "stupid" or "hate-driven".
Well.....

...Since you asked, the Theological definition of ignorance (since we are discussing Theology after all) is as follows:
A willful neglect or refusal to acquire knowledge which one may acquire and it is his duty to have. --Book of Common Prayer.

Other things that are documented as far as this word:
Ignorance is the curse of God, Knowledge the wing wherewith we fly to heaven. --Shak.

I do hold it against people if they choose to be ignorant and believe me, there are plenty who choose it over knowledge that there may be other "truths" out there. No it doesn't mean "stupid" or "hate-driven" but when someone chooses to remain ignorant, they are doing a disservice to themselves and all those around them.

Blessings,
Lunamoth

[Myst]

Originally posted by Lunamoth
A willful neglect or refusal to acquire knowledge which one may acquire and it is his duty to have. --Book of Common Prayer.

People who are ignorant that "orange dancing" is ok do so not because they will to, but because they have been taught that it is. If you are told throughout your life that believing anything else is eternal damnation and work of the devil then you are not willfully believing that, it has been drilled into your head. You simply cannot see another way.

Apple dancers have always been taught that there is ONE way, they do not willfully neglect another way because they don't believe there IS another way. The other way simply does not exist. However, the orange dancers know that there are many ways. So to me ignoring that fact is being willfully ignorant.

Then again the whole concept is irrelevant, to me, because I don't really give a damn what people think about my fruit. :D

[Lunamoth]

Originally posted by Myst


People who are ignorant that "orange dancing" is ok do so not because they will to, but because they have been taught that it is. If you are told throughout your life that believing anything else is eternal damnation and work of the devil then you are not willfully believing that, it has been drilled into your head. You simply cannot see another way.

Apple dancers have always been taught that there is ONE way, they do not willfully neglect another way because they don't believe there IS another way. The other way simply does not exist. However, the orange dancers know that there are many ways. So to me ignoring that fact is being willfully ignorant.

Then again the whole concept is irrelevant, to me, because I don't really give a damn what people think about my fruit. :D

But how can it not exist to them if it's something they're so against? See what I mean? The ignorance is not necessarily of the other type of dancing but the potential benefits - or not - thereof. I'm just asking because it was my understanding of the analogy that the Apple Dancers were in fact aware of the Orange Dancers, but did not agree with them because they just felt it was wrong, not that there just *weren't* any Orange Dancers. So, in essence, if they know it exists, but choose to ignore its relevance, that is, in fact "willful ignor-ance". Or did I misunderstand the analogy altogether?

[Myst]

Orange dancers don't exist to apple dancers because apple dancers believe if you don't dance with apples you dance with evil. You may think you're dancing with oranges but you're really just worshipping evil. They've been taught that all fruit other then apples are really just evil fooling you into thinking you're dancing with fruit.

The point still is who cares what someone thinks about what you dance with? Why get yourself so upset? All that does is harbour negativity around yourself and then you're the one who's at a loss.

[Lily Mai]

Originally posted by Lucidia
how can you hold ignorance against someone? how many people even use the word "ignorant" the right way?

Ignorant- Lacking or displaying a lack of education or knowledge. Not Aware: Uninformed.

Ignorant doesn't mean "stupid" or "hate-driven".

This doesn't mean that I enjoy listening to the rambling nonesense that ignorance gives birth to. However, i can't BLAME someone for not knowing something. I can't expect everyone to have the motivation to read piles of books.

I doubt very much that every pagan in this community has fully read the bible, the quran (even though you're not supposed to read it if its' not arabic), the torah (which is supposed to remain in hebrew if i'm not mistaken), or texts outlining the tao, the pillars of buddhism, or even texts such as the Satanic Bible.


No, ignorance doesn't mean that, but by being ignorant you can become both of those things.

And, no, I haven't read the bible, but thats not the point, I don't know much about other religions, I'll grant you that, but I don't go around condemning followers of other religions souls to eternal torture and such, so I think that I can be let off. The point isn't that they don't take time off to find out about us, it is that they live and let live, even if they thought we were devil worshipping, its not they're place to stop us from doing it.

[Lucidia]

my point is that:

if the orange dancers are so openminded and acceptant, why is it that they are just as hate-filled, resentful, and generally JUST AS IGNORANT as the apple dancers.

at least the apple dancers admit it.

[Lucidia]

and i'm not saying that ALL dancers of ANY Fruit are close minded or anything.

i'm just talking about the closeminded ones. and there are a lot. perhaps just as many, if not more, in my opinion, as the open minded ones.

[Danustouch]

In a sense, Lucidia...I can understand your POV. I've met many orange eaters, who rant and rave about injustices done to them by the apple eaters...yet..the orange eaters doing the ranting, won't even pick up a copy of the "Book Of Apples" to try and understand what their beliefs are, before saying.."They shouldn't feel this way, or that way". I also find misinterpretations of the "Book of Apples" going on over and over and over again, by orange eaters. Now..MANY Parts of the "BOOK OF APPLES" may be mistranslated, as it is. BUT..I find many orange eaters making claims of such, saying.."Yeah, well that verse, and this verse were misinterpreted...so you can't go by that". But..they never take a course in "Book of Apple Interpretation"..or try to study Olde Apple Language, in order to research that claim, and have something to back it up with. In short. Some orange eaters go out of their way to defend themselves to apple eaters, without a foundational understanding of the apple eaters belief system, their language, the SOURCE of their beliefs, the history of their beliefs..and just expound silly theories, without having any research to back it up. Which is silly..IMO. Because if you are going to take a stance, you must know where you're stepping. Ignorance of any sort, should be concquered, before you go and argue with someone. Especially if you are having a theological debate of any sort. You should know the theology..or ..in this case..Fruitology, of whatever you speak. If not..orange eaters are just as bad as the apple eaters who say.."You all sacrifice nectarines in your rituals!!".

[Lucidia]

*gasps*
EATING FRUIT?????

i thought this was about dancing with fruit?????????????

**j/k**

good points dann

[Lunamoth]

Originally posted by Myst
Orange dancers don't exist to apple dancers because apple dancers believe if you don't dance with apples you dance with evil. You may think you're dancing with oranges but you're really just worshipping evil. They've been taught that all fruit other then apples are really just evil fooling you into thinking you're dancing with fruit.

I see what you're saying, it makes sense when you say it that way.



The point still is who cares what someone thinks about what you dance with? Why get yourself so upset? All that does is harbour negativity around yourself and then you're the one who's at a loss.

Who's upset? I'm just asking questions. :)

Thanks Myst.

Lunamoth

[Myst]

Originally posted by Lunamoth
Who's upset? I'm just asking questions. :)


hehe I didn't mean you were :)

I didn't mean to argue to tell people they were wrong, just to clarify my feelings, so I'm glad you see what I mean now :)

[Lily Mai]

I honestly don't think that ignorance is the real problem here. The problem is that some fruit thinks that if they don't know/understand something then it must be wrong. If they didn't know/understand something but were open to learning about it, or just leaving the other fruit (I've lost track of who is who! lol!) to their own devices, the other fruit wouldn't have a problem.

[StormChaser]

That's it. I'm making fruit salad outta all you fruitloops!

*gryns*

[Lily Mai]

Originally posted by StormChaser
That's it. I'm making fruit salad outta all you fruitloops!

*gryns*

lol! As long as I can be the pineapple

[StormChaser]

OMG that TOTALLY reminded me of a HORRIBLE song i MUST teach my cousins for car rides!

"Ma ma will ya buy me a will ya buy me a will ya buy me a..
Ma ma will ya buy me a, will you buy me an orange"

"yes my child ill buy you one, i'll buy you one. Yes my child I'll buy you one, I'll buy you an orange"

"Ma ma will ya peel the skin, will ya peal the skin will ya peal the skin? Ma ma will ya peel the skin off my Orange?

"yes my child I"ll peel the skin..."

"Ma ma will ya take a bite.."

"Yes my child I'll take a bite.."

"Ma ma ya ate too much...Your a greedy guts your a greedy guts.. Ma ma ya ate too much of my orange."

Repeat this with many pealable fruits and veggies

Then say as mom is nearing choking you "ma ma will ya buy me a..
Will ya buy me a pinapple"

and QUICKLY finish it off before mom turns lemming and say "And the Mamma said NO!!!!"