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Lady Valkyrie
November 3rd, 2005, 04:36 PM
I am making an attempt to share my beliefs in this thread and hopefully other Christian Wiccans, Christian Witches, and Christopagans will also share their beliefs.

First and foremost let us remember that Witchcraft is not a religion. It is a practice... a way of life. Witchcraft can be coupled with any religion or spiritual belief. Let us also remember that the term Wicca and the term witchcraft are not interchangeable terms. Wicca is a specific Pagan religion that embraces the practice of Witchcraft. Not every Witch is a Wiccan and not every Pagan is a Wiccan.

The following are my own personal beliefs & do not represent all of those individuals who claim the title of Christian Wiccan, Christian Witch, or Christopagan.

I am a Christian Wiccan who practices Kitchen Witchery. I worship the Holy Trinity of the Judeo/Christian faith. I worship Father God, Mother Goddess, and their son that they bore in the womb of the virgin Mary, Jesus the Christ. I personally believe that Mother Goddess is The Holy Spirit.

I believe that Jesus the Christ was a mystical healer & teacher. I believe that he was also persecuted & murdered for what be did & believed in. I look at Jesus the Christ as my personal inspiration & savior. I follow the teachings of Jesus as best as I can. I disagree alot with the modern day Christian church going more along the way of the teaching of Paul than the teachings of Jesus.

This leads me to Holy texts that I read, study and apply to my life. I read and study the Holy Bible. I believe that the Holy Bible was indeed inspired by God. However, it was written by the hands of imperfect men with their own agendas. It has also been retranslated many times over by men with their own agendas. I do supliment my studies with other Holy Texts such as The Lost Books of the Bible, The Nag Hammadi Library, The Pistis Sophia, & The Apocrypha. Through these many texts I have seen a Wiccan type Triple Goddess aspect within Christianity which include Mary Magdalene (sister of Lazerus & Martha), Mary the eife of Kleophas, & Mary wife of Solomas. There are other combinations of the Triple Goddess within Christianity such as The Virgin Mary (Mother of Jesus), Mary Magdalene, and Mary (Miriam) sister of Jesus. Or how about The Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene, & Sophia. Or how about this combination, The Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene, & Asherath. I truely believe that any combination of these prominant female aspects (along with other prominant female aspects like Shekinah or Holy Spirit), within Christianity is a great representation of the Triple Goddess aspect found within Wicca.

Skeptics often ask Christian Wiccans, Christian Witches, and Christopagans how can they ignore certain Biblical Scriptures that speak against Witches and Witchcraft. In Exodus 22:18 the word used in the original Hebrew manuscript to descibe the person who should be killed is m'khashepah. This word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others or causes loss of property. So when this scripture was translated in English obviously a better word should have been used to bring across the original meaning of the ancient Hebrew manuscipt. Maybe a phrase such as "one who does evil magic" should have been used instead of a word like "witch" that can obviously mean many things to many different people. In Galations 5:19-20 and Revelation 21:8 the word used in the original Greek manuscripts is pharmakia which literally means the practice of preparing poisonous potions to harm or kill others. So once again maybe when this scripture was being interpreted into English a better word or phrase should have been used instead of the word "witchcraft" which has many different meanings to many people.

Skeptics often bring up the issue of hell to Christian Wiccans, Christian Witches, and Christopagans. Do I believe that one will go to hell if they do not believe in Jesus the Christ? No. It's a matter of personal interpretation whether one believes in a literal hell or symbolic hell when it comes to Christianity. I personally believe there will be punishment of some kind for those who are purely evil in this life. I also believe that there is some kind of wonderful reward awaiting those who remain good & make a difference for the better in this life. However, I personally believe to get to that punishment or reward one's soul is reincarnated many times over. This gives a soul a chance to learn from their mistakes. Those who learn are rewarded with a wonderful reward, whatever that may be, whether it is the literal heaven as described in the Holy Bible or otherwise. Those who ultimately fail & not learn from their mistakes are given some fort of eternal punishment. How many times do I believe a soul is reincarnated? I don't know. Maybe it's all up to the Divine Entity. That is just something I probably will not understand until I meet my maker.

I have actually been accused of not following the 10 commandments because I am a Christian Wiccan.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." I already covered this area. I worship the Holy Trinity of the Judeo/Christian faith. I worship Father God, Mother Goddess (the Holy Spirit), and their son that they bore in the womb of the virgin Mary, Jesus the Christ. I personally believe that the Holy Spirit is the fememine aspect of the Holy Trinity. In my opinion I am not in violation of this commandment.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Now this is all a matter of personal opinion and if one can see within my own heart and soul (which they can't). I have a statue of a white dove and it symbolizes The Holy Spirit. I do not worship this statue. I do not bow to this statue and pray to this statue. I do use this statue as a focal point as I pray to the Holy Spirit. I also have a statue of a cat and an owl on my altar. I do not bow down and worship these statues nor do I pray to these statues. I use these statues as a focal point when I am meditating and studying things concerning my totems which happen to be the Tiger and the owl. No I do not worship these animals. I worship their creator. The topic of totems is a subject that deserves its own thread. I also have many pentagrams around my home. The pentagram holds a dual meaning for me. Early Christians used the Pentagram as a symbol of their faith before the Cross became the official Christian symbol. The five points of the Pentagram represented the five wounds of Jesus the Christ. That is what it represents to me. It also represents to me the five elements Spirit, Water, Fire, Earth, & Air all of which are used in Witchcraft.

"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." This doe not present a problem for me. I don't take the name of God in vain.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." Well I do believe that a heck of a lot of Christians break this commandment if one is to take it literally. Ancient Hebrew Sabbath was from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. How many Christians really keep the Sabbath and keep it Holy? Most Christians think the Sabbath is Sunday. It's even leaked into the secular world to where businesses and even state liquor stores are not even open on Sunday? Why Sunday? It's certainly not the Sabbath... that is if you take this commandment literally. I don't take it literally. I do believe that we should take at least one day of rest, relaxation, and meditate on our Higher Power. What day that is is a matter of personal preference in my humble opinion.

"Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee." Well, this is going to be a bit touchy. I am a parent of three children. Of course I expect my children to honour and respect me as their parent. But at the same time do I give them a reason to honour and respect me? I believe this commandment goes hand in hand with what is spoken of in the New Testemant about how parents should treat their children. My parents, especially my mother, gave me absolutely no reason to honour and respect them. They were extremely abusive... what honour is in abuse? I survived... barely. I do honor and respect my father now for he changed his ways and gave me a reason to honour and respect him as my father. However, my mother is still the same and unrepented concerning the extreme abuse she dealt out to me as a child. She gives me no reason to honour or respect her. Some people may disagree with me here and that is fine. I am not out to change other's minds... I am just here to make a stand for my own beliefs that are clearly being attacked.

"Thou shalt not kill." Now once again is this a commandment that we take literally? Or are there some unspoken conditions involved? Are we to believe that a God would command us not to kill anything at all and then go and command certain humans in the bible to rise up as an army and kill certain people whom he deemed as enemies? Are we to believe that a God would command us not to kill and yet command certain animals be sacrificed for the redemption of certain sins? Are we to believe that a God would command us not to kill and yet throughout the Bible God's people kill and eat animals for food? Are we to believe that a God who commands us not to kill would then turn around and command his people in the Bible to kill this person and that person for he deems them as sinners... basically capital punishment? This commandment has been up for interpretation since it was given and written down. I personally am against capital punishment. I am personally against the killing of anything for sacrifical means. I believe that one should be allowed to kill animals for food or out of defense if they are being attacked of course. And finally I believe that if you are being attacked and it is either them or you, you have the right to defend yourself by whatever means neccessary. Now take all of this and you determine if I am in violation of this commandment. I personally do not believe that I am.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." Now this commandment is also up for interpretation... especially when you take into account what the New Testament says about adultery. My own cousin believed that when I divorced my first abusive husband and then got remarried to another man I was committing adultery. She believed that I was to either be reconciled to my first husband or be single for the rest of my life... or if my first husband would have died before me then I would have been loosed from my marriage bond and only then I could remarry. Now she also has Biblical scriptures to back up these beliefs. However, I do not agree with her... obviously since I am now on my third husband. Now when I am in a relationship with someone I am theirs and theirs alone. I do not go sleeping around cheating on my husband. So, depending upon one's personal interpretation I may or may not be keeping this commandment.

"Thou shalt not steal." Well this is a no brainer... I do not believe anyone should steal! The last time I stole something I was a stupid kid... stupid being the key word there.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Do I tell lies about me "neighbors?" NO! I hate lies! I hate gossip... which is the spreading of lies. However, I will not think twice to telling the blatant honest truth to someone or about someone especially if it has to do with righting a wrong, defending myself, or clearing up lies already been told. NO I am not in violation of this commandment.

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." I am one that has lived in poverty... and I am talking about some real poverty. Do I covet? I do wish I had better things... but they are just that... things.... nothing that is going to make me a better person. I am NOT a materialistic woman. Things do not impress me. I have been poorand I may not be rich... but I am better than I once was, that's for sure. I do not covet for people, places, or things. That's just not me. I am not in violation of this commandment.

Now being that I am a Christian Wiccan/Kitchen Witch some people think that it would be hard for me to follow all the commandments and harmonize them with blended faith. Quite frankly a heck of a lot of Christians have a hard time following all the commandments. Many Christians have their Sabbath on Sunday, rather than Saturday as the Bible states. Many Christians wear Crosses and Crucifixes around their necks and that could be considered a graven image. Many Christians have Crucifixions hanging on their walls or statues of the Virgin Mary. These could also be considered as graven images. Yet all these people that have such things still consider themselves as Christians.

I do observe & celebrate the Wiccan Wheel of the Year. The Sabbats & Esbats are very important to me as well as some (not all, though) of the Christian holidays. I have a deep reverance for all of Nature & the creatures that inhabit it. I do not worship Nature in the sense that I will fall on my knees and worship a tree. However, I can see God & Goddess in everything in Nature, the Good & the Bad. I am not the type that believes that all the World must be filled with Love, Light, & Harmony. Quite the opposite actually. I believe that in everything there is Good & Bad aspects including Human Nature. I do not deny my Darker side, however, I do not totally embrace it either. Just as within Nature there is a balance between the two. I believe that there needs to be a balance of Light & Darkness within Human Nature.

I do practice Witchcraft, Kitchen Witchery to be exact. Kitchen Witchery is Witchcraft that focuses on Hearth & Home and the Natural Healing through Herbs, Stones, Crystals, Potions, Spells, & the Mind. Everyday chores take on a whole new meaning for the Kitchen Witch. Preparing a meal for ones family becomes very ritualistic & magickal. The housecleaning becomes more than just cleaning the phsycial dirt & germs but also cleansing the home of all the negative energies. Even lawn care becomes Magickal. I am a stay at home mother of three children so my family & home are extremely important to me. Kitchen Witchery came very natural to me. My favorite magickal tools to use is My Mind & Body, Gemstones, Crystals, Herbs, Candles, & Tarot Cards.

Cyzarine
November 4th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Very interesting. Thank you for sharing...I to am a Witch that pulls from the Christian and Wiccan aspects.

ancestral_lee
November 4th, 2005, 08:20 PM
:)

ok a quick question, where do you get the idea that the 'holy spirit' is the mother goddess?

doesnt that pretty much go against all biblical teaching?

there isnt any mention of a female in christianity is there?

oh and wouldnt christian witch be more accurate rather than wiccan? after all, wicca is an initiatory tradition.

Cyzarine
November 4th, 2005, 08:30 PM
ancestral_lee, I cannot answer for the poster but I can answer from my perspective.


ok a quick question, where do you get the idea that the 'holy spirit' is the mother goddess?

Many other books state a mother goddess...The Pistis Sophia, & The Apocrypha (i believe). As well, most of those books are also used in the Gnostic faith. It is all in what you believe and feel is right for you.


doesnt that pretty much go against all biblical teaching?

Yes, it does. But what are biblical teachings? gods word mixed with many years of mans personal views. To me there is no vallidity to the bible except what you make out of it.


there isnt any mention of a female in christianity is there?

Actually, yes there is. I forget where...but it talks about a mother of souls...a spirit. The way it is worded you can tell it is feminine. I will have to look it up.


oh and wouldnt christian witch be more accurate rather than wiccan? after all, wicca is an initiatory tradition.

Yes, Christain witch would be more acurate. Yet, one can be just a witch and blend from many differnt paths and faiths.

I hope this helped.

Necrosapien
November 4th, 2005, 08:46 PM
I'm sorry, I don't have specifics, but I'll try to let all understand what I know. The details may escape me, but with a little digging, I'm sure you'll be able to find it. There are many examples of the Holy Spirit being refferred to as a female. I don't remember if it's in Psalms or Proverbs...but it talks about wisdom personafied. The word wisdom had female gender in that language, so it may be interpted as only a personofication using the appropriate gender. Yet wisdom seems to speak not just as a personification but as an acutal being. I know that in The Wisdom of Solomon there's much talk about her...I'm really sorry but none of this is going to be coherent. I can't think right now. I remember one quote by someone (when talking about the immaculate conception). He said (loosely paraphrased) since when does a woman get pregnant from a woman? This is what I can come up with for now...

And I share almost all of the same perspectives as Lady Valkyrie...save I am interested in Ceremonial Magic. As to the magic aspect...(I don't recall the logic) but as far as I remember, the scriptures refferring to magic are essentially saying that magic with an evil intent and not done in accordance with the will of God is wrong.

Reincarnation was also a belief of Christians for 500 years before the church started to squash everything that was "heretical"...and just because someone is labled a heritic it just means that they don't believe the same thing...they're labled heretical...but it's not about the majority belief...it's about truth. Just because there's a majority of belief doesn't make it true.

At any rate, I'm just going to back off...I think I need a nap or something...

Christo Pagan
November 6th, 2005, 03:20 PM
My view of deity:

First off, let me state that I am an Emanationist
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanationism). In other words, I am a
polytheist that sees all things emanating from the same god source.
Basically I hold the Gnostic view that God the Father (preached about
by Christ) is not the God of the Old Testament but is in fact the
"Unknowable God". I view this God as being panetheistic in nature
(from Wikipedia: "Panentheism is the view that God is immanent within
all Creation or that God is the animating force behind the universe.
Unlike pantheism, panentheism does not mean that the universe is all
God or that God contains the universe inside Godself. In panentheism,
God maintains a transcendent character, and is viewed as both the
creator and the original source of universal morality. The term is
closely associated with the Logos of Hellenistic philosophy in the
works of Herakleitos, which pervades the cosmos and whereby all things
were made.").

I believe that the only way in which one can approach the Father is
through both "aeons" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeons) or divine
beings, whom I worship as Christ and Sophia. It is to them that I
offer my worship and devotion. I see Christ symbolized by the sun and
Sophia by the moon, as do most Wiccans in regards to the God and Goddess.

I also believe in the existence of a "demiurge"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge) or lesser god that believes
itself to be the ONLY god worthy of worship. I believe that much of
the references and mythology about Yahweh in the Old Testament, refer
to this being. This too was a common belief held by the Christian
Gnostics. It is through this being that I believe monotheism was born
and who also is a cause of much of the strife we see going on in the
world today.

I addition, I believe that within all of us there is, what the Gnostics call, a "divine spark" (represented by Sophia) and that this is our divine nature within us, what Christ referred to as the "Kingdom of God". I do believe in reincarnation, which was popularly held by both the ancient Pagans and the early Christians, and that we can ascend on to become one with Deity after we have achieved gnosis (the greek term for "knowledge"). This is what I believe Christ meant when he spoke of the "resurrection" - not an after death, physical event but rather a spiritual awakening we can experience in this life.

MGD
January 16th, 2006, 01:12 AM
I'm a Discordian Subgenius Roman Catholic.

David19
January 16th, 2006, 08:17 PM
My view of deity:

First off, let me state that I am an Emanationist
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanationism). In other words, I am a
polytheist that sees all things emanating from the same god source.
Basically I hold the Gnostic view that God the Father (preached about
by Christ) is not the God of the Old Testament but is in fact the
"Unknowable God". I view this God as being panetheistic in nature
(from Wikipedia: "Panentheism is the view that God is immanent within
all Creation or that God is the animating force behind the universe.
Unlike pantheism, panentheism does not mean that the universe is all
God or that God contains the universe inside Godself. In panentheism,
God maintains a transcendent character, and is viewed as both the
creator and the original source of universal morality. The term is
closely associated with the Logos of Hellenistic philosophy in the
works of Herakleitos, which pervades the cosmos and whereby all things
were made.").

I believe that the only way in which one can approach the Father is
through both "aeons" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeons) or divine
beings, whom I worship as Christ and Sophia. It is to them that I
offer my worship and devotion. I see Christ symbolized by the sun and
Sophia by the moon, as do most Wiccans in regards to the God and Goddess.

I also believe in the existence of a "demiurge"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge) or lesser god that believes
itself to be the ONLY god worthy of worship. I believe that much of
the references and mythology about Yahweh in the Old Testament, refer
to this being. This too was a common belief held by the Christian
Gnostics. It is through this being that I believe monotheism was born
and who also is a cause of much of the strife we see going on in the
world today.

I addition, I believe that within all of us there is, what the Gnostics call, a "divine spark" (represented by Sophia) and that this is our divine nature within us, what Christ referred to as the "Kingdom of God". I do believe in reincarnation, which was popularly held by both the ancient Pagans and the early Christians, and that we can ascend on to become one with Deity after we have achieved gnosis (the greek term for "knowledge"). This is what I believe Christ meant when he spoke of the "resurrection" - not an after death, physical event but rather a spiritual awakening we can experience in this life.

Those beliefs are pretty cool :) and is kind of like mine, but i have a question, are aeons gods?, since i've been interested in Gnosticism for awhile and have been kind of confused since different places say different things about them, i've always been interested in whether deities like Apollo, Athene, etc could by called aeons.

BTW, i hope i made sense

Lady Valkyrie
August 31st, 2006, 08:30 PM
a shameless bump for "certain" individuals.

wintermagick
October 9th, 2006, 07:43 AM
I've fought it every step of the way... but at this point if I'm being turly honest with myself, then I am a Christian Witch. Not even a Christian Wiccan or Christopagan... other than the myths of Demeter the gods of old really hold no interest or sway for me anymore.

However I cannot deny the existence of magick, and I still enjoy mediation, astral projection, some forms of divination, naming yourself a spiritual name in seperation of the mundane, drawing on the energies of the moon and Earth, and stone/ candle/herbal magick. These are things I really don't want to give up (they still bring much comfort and enrichment to my life). I also do not see the need to give these things up in a "Biblical sense".

So at this point I'm just floating along and always learning more... and I've accepted I'll never fit 100% comfortably in any group.

BTW Lady Valkerie, I just sent you a MySpace friend request... I'm "Always Re-Inventing Herself!!!"

Zelan
October 14th, 2006, 06:11 PM
:)

ok a quick question, where do you get the idea that the 'holy spirit' is the mother goddess?

doesnt that pretty much go against all biblical teaching?

there isnt any mention of a female in christianity is there?

oh and wouldnt christian witch be more accurate rather than wiccan? after all, wicca is an initiatory tradition.


This is just my opinion on the first half of your question;
Divided on earth, united in heaven.
that being said as if to say "The natural speaks of the invisible"

Would not the all powerful creator embody the traits of both?

BlueWaves
October 14th, 2006, 06:14 PM
what's that one quote i can't remember:

"shoot 'em all and let god sort 'em. "

heh. really, as much as I travel to the astral plane I know there is a god/creator. as far as speaking with this entity I have tried, got the emotional energy burst, the "heat" that you get when trying to communicate with a higher being and force myself to wake up =\.

It's very hard to communicate with the being known as "god/creator."

BlueWaves
October 14th, 2006, 06:16 PM
and when i talk about "heat" i mean of course that plasma-looking stuff that envlopes your being.

wintermagick
November 3rd, 2006, 10:22 AM
I've fought it every step of the way... but at this point if I'm being turly honest with myself, then I am a Christian Witch. Not even a Christian Wiccan or Christopagan... other than the myths of Demeter the gods of old really hold no interest or sway for me anymore.

However I cannot deny the existence of magick, and I still enjoy mediation, astral projection, some forms of divination, naming yourself a spiritual name in seperation of the mundane, drawing on the energies of the moon and Earth, and stone/ candle/herbal magick. These are things I really don't want to give up (they still bring much comfort and enrichment to my life). I also do not see the need to give these things up in a "Biblical sense".

So at this point I'm just floating along and always learning more... and I've accepted I'll never fit 100% comfortably in any group.

BTW Lady Valkerie, I just sent you a MySpace friend request... I'm "Always Re-Inventing Herself!!!"

And now as of late I'm leaning more away from the Christian side... my moods swing like this, and for now I just go with it! :hahugh:

LadyCelt
May 27th, 2007, 01:11 PM
I don't know if I'd really call myself a Christian Pagan. In a way, I feel I'd have to dedicate myself more to the Pagan side. When I pray to God, it is still the Christian God. When I pray to the Goddess, it is more like the Pagan idea of the Goddess. Yet, I still don't view God as only male.

I've begun wanting to connect more with the elements lately. I am also into the changing seasons; particularly fall and spring. I wasn't able to go right when Spring occurred, but I went to a nature center a couple days later. I may go there for Midsummer's, Fall Again, don't know about winter (but maybe something else), and Spring again. I didn't make a New Year's resolution this year on October 31, due mainly to trying to ignore my being into this. But, I may do one this year and dedicate it to another family member who has passed on like I did 2 years ago.

Maybe some would consider me a Chrsitian-Pagan. But, I consider myself more Christian (though I still struggle with this word due to its connotations) with some Paganism incorporated into my overall spiritual path.

Rosetta Morrigan
June 13th, 2007, 10:32 AM
Thank you, ever so much, Lady Valkyrie, for your thread. I am a Christian Witch seeking information on my path. It is always so helpful to hear others share their beliefs.

Veritas Et Pietas
July 3rd, 2007, 02:52 AM
Very interesting thread. I've been on a roller coaster ride myself. I am a cradle catholic who stopped going to Mass at age 15. Lost the faith. I then pretended to be an atheist for several years. About 6 years ago, I decided that everyone has to believe in something, and I began researching the occult. Wicca and Ceremonial Magick caught my interest.

I began lurking on occult forums and noticed the anti Christian comments here and there. Most seemed directed at the Catholic Church.

Anyhow, one evening I began to think of all the things Catholicism and certain Pagan religions have in common. Thus, "Christian Witchcraft".

Lady Valkyrie, your post shows that you see that as well ;)

There are numerous similarities. Talismans/Medals, the use of candles, altars, incense, the belief in an omnipotent source of all. Marian devotions. Sacramentals.

You mentioned your dark side. We all have one, but I think we all share the will to suppress it. At least those of us with somewhat stable upbringings. I think it is human nature to prefer kindness over meaness. Some may question that lol.

At any rate, I would think any hard core atheist or pagan would at least agree that the teachings of Jesus Christ are beautiful, and that one can't go wrong following them. So when someone says that there is no such thing as a ChristoPagan, I don't believe they have experienced both.

My roller coaster ride continues. I find sitting in an Adoration Chapel in the Presence of Christ an act of being as close to God himself as one can be while still alive. I also can sit on the bank of a lake at midnight under a full moon and feel the energy of the Goddess. I find the sound of the insects and creatures of the night soothing.... like natures symphony.

But, enough about me. Hopefully others will share their thoughts on this.

Veritas Et Pietas
July 3rd, 2007, 03:08 AM
It seems many of us struggle to combine the two paths, but remain determined to do so.

IrishDancer
July 3rd, 2007, 03:28 AM
Agreeing with the original post, in that witchcraft is a practice and a way of life. But (very!) respectfully asking, as someone who truly doesn't know the Christopagan stance on this and wants to listen :hugz:, whether some things that are practices and ways of life, although not religions, may be anti-Christian.

Christianity has certain tenants. Isn't one of the main tenants to live according to God/Christ's Will, and not neccessarily your own? To live according to God's plan, in faith, without necessarily knowing what He has in store, trusting that He knows far more than any of us can?

As I understand it, respectfully again :hugz:, that's what the Bible teaches repeatedly. So maybe it's a misconception of *mine* that witchcraft is a way of foregoing the natural order of things and affecting the paths of the universe and others by your own will?

I would genuinely like to discuss this in a kind and respectful way without fighting. I want to learn what you all think. I'm sure everyone already knows my current beliefs on the subject :hugz:

Humbly,
IrishDancer

LostSheep
July 3rd, 2007, 03:31 AM
Interesting comments. I think a lot of the anti-Christian, and anti-catholic in particular, sentiment comes from resentment at the doctrines and dogma, and the perceived power that the church has had over the centuries, but I think that when you look at it in more depth, much of the ritual and the beliefs surrounding the Catholic church is, yes, you can see the similarities.

I think Catholicism sees God as being present in people's lives (and Mary as well of course), more perhaps that protestantism does. Of course, there's the whole "guilt industry" thing, but a lot of that was accumulated over centuries and doesn't have that much really to what Jesus actually talked about.

I think that if you strip away all the dogma and the doctrines that have been added over two thousand years or so, then you will see that what Jesus said, and the ideas of God from the New Testament, aren't really incompatible with worshipping the natural world - it was created by him, after all.

IrishDancer
July 3rd, 2007, 03:37 AM
I think that if you strip away all the dogma and the doctrines that have been added over two thousand years or so, then you will see that what Jesus said, and the ideas of God from the New Testament, aren't really incompatible with worshipping the natural world - it was created by him, after all.

As far as worshiping the natural world, I think the Bible more or less talks about tending to, caring for and respecting God's creation. But as far as actual worship, in the Bible any worship of anything other than God is considered idolatry. I think it gets kind of muddy, like there's a thin line between worshiping God and standing in awe of His creation, and actually worshiping the things he created.

Respectfully Yours,
IrishDancer

Annest
July 3rd, 2007, 03:44 AM
I think that if you strip away all the dogma and the doctrines that have been added over two thousand years or so, then you will see that what Jesus said, and the ideas of God from the New Testament, aren't really incompatible with worshipping the natural world - it was created by him, after all.
:clapping:

LostSheep
July 3rd, 2007, 03:45 AM
Oh yes, i meant not worshipping whatever it may be per se, but as part of creation - showing respect for it, might perhaps be a better way of putting it. I think Jesus was pretty familiar with the natural world - a lot of the parables referred to things in nature - and respected it.

Maybe it might be different if someone was a hard polytheist, who sees each place having its own individual spirits, who exist as separate entities, but as if you look at them as manifestations of God's presence, I think it's not toally incompatible.

IrishDancer
July 3rd, 2007, 04:18 AM
Agreed, LostSheep.

Note to anyone else who looks at the thread, please don't forget my post on page 2 (#19)!

Russ
July 3rd, 2007, 06:36 AM
I admit it's always gotten me that Wiccans can take any god or goddess they darn well wont. EXCEPT that one...

Also the way people go on about ZOMG Christian are really doing witchcraft!!!!11!one

But explode all over any Witch, Wiccan or Christian that decides to combine Christianity and Witchcraft and/or Wicca.

:rant:

IrishDancer
July 3rd, 2007, 10:59 PM
As far as Christians doing witchcraft, I can totally see how some people might think that. In both, there is clear intent. But with Christianity, the intent is focused on God's Will, and in witchcraft, it's focused on your own.

And that's what I'm eager to talk about! C'mon, people, I'm almost peeing in my pants here.

Russ
July 4th, 2007, 01:12 AM
As far as Christians doing witchcraft, I can totally see how some people might think that. In both, there is clear intent. But with Christianity, the intent is focused on God's Will, and in witchcraft, it's focused on your own.

And that's what I'm eager to talk about! C'mon, people, I'm almost peeing in my pants here.

Well also there are those working on behalf of every God BUT that one.

IrishDancer
July 4th, 2007, 07:57 AM
How do they know the will of those gods? (Seriously curious, and really afraid I'm going to seem antagonistic at some point in this thread without at all meaning to!)

lil'BuddhistWitch
July 5th, 2007, 10:09 AM
see with this subject.. i wouldn't know how i fit in. i grew up christian, and evntually found wicca, then i didn't agree with it and found druidry, then that seems a little over the top... and then i went back to my questions for christianity... then my girlfriend showed me the jehovah witness's bible and i looked at that, then yesterday i stumbled over here and read the first post talking about lost books of the bible... and i'm really lost.... but there are somethings i agree with and some things i don't.

like i believe in God, but i also believe that there is a female entity out there...and once upon a time i wannted to work with many different god/ess (s) ... but i also believe that everything has a spirit or energy around and within it. i don't believe in winged men and women as angels, but i believe in bad sprits that some may call demons as well as other supernatural things that people describe to be out there. I like herbs, and tarot cards, and also different cultural philosphies...

most of the time, i get so lost and confused because people dont know what they want in reliogn, but i dont think that religion defines you its just something to keep you sane when your stressed out... i mean, i'm not making sense right now.. but i could use any type of advice anyone has to offer for someone who is confused...

cesara
July 5th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Isn't one of the main tenants to live according to God/Christ's Will, and not neccessarily your own? To live according to God's plan, in faith, without necessarily knowing what He has in store, trusting that He knows far more than any of us can?

As I understand it, respectfully again :hugz:, that's what the Bible teaches repeatedly. So maybe it's a misconception of *mine* that witchcraft is a way of foregoing the natural order of things and affecting the paths of the universe and others by your own will?


Hi IrishDancer :)

First, keep in mind that this is just MHO, and others most certainly will have a different view.

God's Will and Our 'True Will' are one and the same. Therefore, if you are working towards a goal of identifying and fulfilling your True Will, then it is impossible to be ignoring God's Will. Rather you are working with it, and flowing WITH the natural order of things. It is when mundane life experience puts us off this path where 'problems' occur. (I approach this idea in a gnostic way but I will leave the explaining for another time as it would distract from your initial inquiry)

This idea is common in several different "Christo-Pagan" paths including Gnosticism, and also within other Pagan paths, particularly Thelema and Hermeticism.

There are several verses in the NT that support this idea, especially if you look at the texts without the influence of traditional interpretation. Further, there is much in the NT that supports the idea of a "Spark of the Divine" within each of us (The Kingdom of heaven is in you." being the most prominent one off the top of my head.)

Understand that what I express here is just the 'tip of the iceberg' and you would have to study supporting texts, both biblical and extra-biblical, in order to get a more full perspective on the topic.

I hope this explains my views sufficiently and if you have questions I'd be glad to answer them to the best of my ability. :)

lamoka
July 5th, 2007, 03:25 PM
SEEKING.. SEEKING.. SEEKING..
Finding more in witchcraft than in catholicism.. haven't called myself catholic in quite some time.. came to witchcraft through wicca.. the cross references and similarities are many.. I believe each path has a piece of the puzzle.. it's up to us to be open minded enough to put it together..
but PLEASE REMEMBER!!!...
witchcraft I believe is recognized by the federal government as a religion... as is wicca.. keep that in mind always when making decisions for your family that can put you in the front line of government when they don't agree with your personal decisions when it comes to beliefs as well as healthcare.. TOUCHY TOUCHY TOUCHY!!
namaste

cesara
July 7th, 2007, 01:55 PM
Bump in case Irish Dancer missed more answers in this thread. :)

IrishDancer
July 8th, 2007, 02:17 AM
Thank you, cesara! I really enjoyed your post. I have some questions.

One of the things I've really had a hard time understanding is things like love spells. Everyone has their own will on earth, and if it were God's will to have you be with someone, wouldn't you two be compatible enough to not need a love spell? And yet people use love spells, which override the subject-of-the-spell's will.

To me, that seems like taking your will over God's. I mean, God's not going to want everything you want. What if God knows something you don't. What if, in this example, God knows that if you were with this guy, he'd throw your whole life off track? But, because you didn't like what was happening or God's answer to your prayers, you decided to take it into your own hands by concocting a love spell.

Aren't there ways to put your will over God's like that? Or what about things like black magic or protection rituals? Why not just pray for protection and leave it solely to prayer and non-supernatural-action?

I think I'm just not understanding the *need* for witchcraft in Christianity. Why not just pray and let God do what He thinks is right?

:hugz: Thanks for the time you're taking to explain this.

Lovehound
July 14th, 2007, 06:54 PM
Myself personally, I think of myself as a "prime signed" Heathen.

If you look in Egil's Saga you'll see that Egil Skallagrimsson himself was anointed with holy oil by a Christian priest, so he would be able to trade with Christian merchants bringing their wares to Scandinavia.

The idea was that the Heathen would receive the holy oil with a promise to be baptized at some later date.

In my case, I was baptized quite young and even confirmed in my teens (United Methodist).

I currently am a member of an Episcopal Church, and most people there know that people have been blending practices for centuries.

I personally don't see a separation between witchcraft and religion. I think doing things like lighting a candle before the image of a saint or whatever is performing both a religious act and a magical act, know what I mean?

IrishDancer
July 20th, 2007, 11:47 PM
Bump :)

imapepper
July 21st, 2007, 12:12 PM
I am a Roman Catholic, and I say 'Roman Catholic' as opposed to just Catholic because that can be an umbrella term for those who practice Orthodox Christianity, they too call themselves 'catholic' in some of their texts.

Yet, being of Mexican descent, my brand, or 'our' brand of Catholicism is one heavily mixed with ancient native beliefs and customs, most Mexican Catholics practice a combonation of Catholicism with Mexican Folk Magick, which is Magick using Jesus, Mary, the saints, etc. It's a syncretic religion, syncretism consists of "the attempt to reconcile disparate or contradictory beliefs, often while melding practices of various schools of thought. The term may refer to attempts to merge and analogize several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, and thus assert an underlying unity".

You have the Virgin Mary as the goddess Tonantzin, for example, and although most Mexican Catholics are unaware of the Pagan origins of their practices (cleansings, healings, etc.) it is an integral part of their faith. To call yourself 'witch' however, has a very negative connotation, 'good' witches don't exist in the psyche of the Mexican culture, to be a witch means to practice black magic. The equivalent of a 'good' witch here would be a shaman or curandero, which means healer; the word wizard is also acceptable. For the most part those practing Mexican Folk Magick use magick only for healing and protection, those who cast spells are seen as witches, hence it's not usually seen as a positive thing. Even if someone casts 'good' spells like love spells, it's seen as a violation of God's divine will (to address what IrishDancer has been talking about).

When it comes to Mexican Folk Magick, we practice magick with the hope that God will grant us our wishes, we use certain things like candles, statues of saints, prayers, and incense, or even stones and other amulets, that we feel would please God and help aid us in connecting with the Lord and our Virgin Mother. We believe God has it all planned out, and in the end God's will be done, but we practice magick in hopes that it'll help whatever situation we're in, if need be for healing or protection. There's a lot of prayer that goes on during magick, so we don't expect that our magick can change things, we just hope that it can, which is why those who cast spells for anything other than healing or protection are not looked upon favorably.

It's just like the natives (Aztec, Mayan, Toltec, etc.) when they performed rituals and sacrifices, they did so with the hope of pleasing the gods, hope in a certain outcome, but they never felt it was neccesarily guaranteed. In fact they felt it was their duty and vital to their existence, to engage in their form of prayer and worship, to never cut that connection with the divine, because they recognized they were at the mercy of their gods.

We too who practice Mexican Folk Magick, realize we are at the mercy of God and in the end it is God who will decide, we can only hope to please God with our offerings and prayers, that God will have mercy on us.

I mostly use mostly my hands, herbals, and other natural goods for my magick, and only for healing, protection, and cleansing. I don't ever cast spells, I don't believe in that, and this doesn't mean I don't believe that it has power, I just don't think it's the kind of power I'd like to be associated with, I don't think I have that right, but that's just my personal path.

It's a little confusing sometimes, even for me, because there are so many blurred lines. I accept the church but not the dogma or the heirarchy, I even attend mass and have completed all of my sacraments, observe the holy days, etc. but I'm not a fan of the politics involved, it's pretty nasty, IMO.

Pneumatikos
August 18th, 2008, 05:32 AM
:)

ok a quick question, where do you get the idea that the 'holy spirit' is the mother goddess?
doesn't that pretty much go against all biblical teaching?
there isnt any mention of a female in christianity is there?
oh and wouldnt christian witch be more accurate rather than wiccan? after all, wicca is an initiatory tradition.

Yes and No. The God of the Bible is refered to as Father, However, the word translated God in Genesis one is Elohim which is male/female plural

Copperhead_Slinger
September 28th, 2008, 03:54 PM
I am one who does not believe that Christian and Wiccan should even go in the same sentence....does not the Christian Bible teach against witchcraft? This is nothing more than a mockery of Wicca and the Pagan tradition if you ask me.....but then agian whos asking me huh...

LostSheep
September 28th, 2008, 04:09 PM
The bits that were added by the translators to satisfy James I, you mean? There's quite a lot (like everything attributed to Paul, for instance) that were added over the years to suit the particular points of view/prejudices of whoever had the most influence at the time - Paul, St Augustine, Emperor Constantine, King James, etc. When you look at it, little of the most controversial parts on issues such as this, or many others, like homosexuality, were directly attributed to Jesus.

ChristaWitch
September 28th, 2008, 04:34 PM
I describe myself as a Christian Witch. My beliefs are fairly standard liberal Christian type - in other words I follow the bible but do not regard it as inerrant or the only thing God has said to anyone, I call God both Father and Mother. I believe in the Trinity. I do not see Mary - any of the Maries - as anything other than human. I do see Jesus as feminine as well as masculine in his role as Sophia as well as Logos.

I practise ritual workings to increase my understanding of and experience of God, and see working magic as being fine as long as it is done in accordance with His will. Magic is a natural tool, and not tied to any religious tradition. We can use the power of God as his friends to perform works in accordance with his will, and alongside natural power.

I don't however really agree with the title Christian Wicca, as I understand Wicca to be a specific tradition with its own (unnamed to non-initiates) gods, and don't really see how the one God of Christianity can go along with the ditheism of the Wica.

Louisvillian
September 28th, 2008, 05:23 PM
I am one who does not believe that Christian and Wiccan should even go in the same sentence....does not the Christian Bible teach against witchcraft? This is nothing more than a mockery of Wicca and the Pagan tradition if you ask me.....but then agian whos asking me huh...
I agree to an extent.
There can indeed be Christian Witchcraft; witchcraft is merely folk practices and folk magic, that kind of thing. Prayer in conventional Christianity accomplishes much the same thing in a lazier way, so to speak. Hell, pretty much all retroactively-defined "witches" were devout Christians prior to the Pagan Revival movement in the late 19th century. So, Christianity and practice of witchcraft can be done, because witchcraft is a set of practices, not a religion.

But Wicca is mutually exclusive with Christianity. They are two completely different religions, with totally opposite belief systems with completely different world-views. You can't mix the two and have it still be either Christian or Wiccan. It doesn't work like that.

Darth Brooks
September 28th, 2008, 05:43 PM
This is a really outstanding thread. I'm quite thankful to have stumbled across it.

I do not consider myself to be Christian per se, but as a Setian witch who is most drawn to the Greek Typhonian traditions, I firmly believe that Set and IHVH are really one and the same deity, and that Jesus Christ is a reincarnation or later manifestation of Osiris. I do not worship Osiris/Christ, but I am respectful to him and his followers. As far as worship goes I am a bit more like Muslims or Jews in that I believe "God the Father" - or Set - is the only deity that I should worship. As such it is no doubt tempting for some to call me a monotheist, but I don't really like limiting myself to any particular theological term like that. The way I see it, I believe there can be all kinds of different gods, I just regard Typhon as the highest. I suppose "henotheist" would work, but again I tend to view such categories as quaint at best.

Considering my position, I have gotten quite a lot of criticism for my beliefs. Not only do Christians and Muslims seem to find my theology "insulting" (I've never gotten too many objections from Jews, actualyl), but many Kemetic Neopagans also seem to find it "insulting." (And by "Kemetic Neopagan" I am speaking of all Egyptian-based pagan religions practiced in the contemporary world, including but not limited to Kemetic Orthodoxy.) Well it's not my intention to insult anyone, but the fact of the matter is that these associations were made two thousand years ago by the Typhonian hermeticists, long before I was born. I am certainly not the first person to identify Set with IHVH. Therefore, while these associations may not be to everyone's tastes, they are nevertheless part of an ancient tradition and this cannot be denied.

Furthermore, Set's historical worshipers - both in Egypt and outside of Egypt - quite enthusiastically identified Him with beliefs, practices, and theological paradigms that were alien to the established Egyptian traditions, because Set was always seen as a God of foreigners and foreign influences. Therefore, at least as far as my own practice is concerned, I do not believe a Setian is obligated to strictly conform to Egyptian theology (and even if he/she were, choosing which theology from which dynasty would be a frustrating matter in and of itself). In fact I feel it's almost a requirement in Setian religion to use ideas and correlations that were foreign to Egypt, as well as what is known about the Egyptian ones, because Set beckons us to always explore the strange, the foreign, and the unknown. As a God of trade and commerce He was the patron of anybody and everybody who crossed borders and sought to understand "the Other Side," whatever it happens to be in context.

Therefore I don't take too kindly to being told that I am "insulting" the Egyptian religions or the Netjeru by believing that Set and IHVH are the same. In any case, Set Himself has never complained to me about it, and has given me every indication that He encourages such identification. Therefore I will continue practicing my faith as I see fit and anyone who feels "insulted" by it will just have to feel "insulted."

That being said, again I do not worship Osiris/Jesus, but I do respect him. I consider him to be a powerful Netjer who is not really enemies with Set, but partners with Him. In terms of Jesus the historical man, I believe he was a great magician and prophet whose teachings can be useful to everyone, regardless of whether they are Christian or not. I also believe that if Jesus were walking the earth today, he would probably be spending most of his time talking to people like the folks in this thread, rather than hanging around the Pat Robertson types.

Again, excellent thread. :thumbsup:

EDIT TO ADD: While I believe the Bible was indeed inspired by Typhon, it was nevertheless written by mortal hands, and as it was translated and re-translated and garbled through the grapevine, I believe the original message was twisted to suit political and ideological needs, by both Jewish and Christian leaders. I do not regard the Bible as it exists today to be the "infallible word of God."

PrincessKLS
October 1st, 2008, 01:38 PM
Well I do believe in Jesus as a sort of demigod (not actually god), he was crucified for his religious and political belief (God bless his soul), I'm pretty much monotheistic. I do not put any emphasis on the devil however I do believe in an ideal of good vs. evil. I do not end my prayers/spells in amen, if to say Dear God, I don't really believe in hell but a sort of heaven, a nirvana type state. I do believe in past lives and reincarnation, the power of astrology and fortune telling. That's the short of it.

PrincessKLS
October 1st, 2008, 01:40 PM
This is a really outstanding thread. I'm quite thankful to have stumbled across it.

I do not consider myself to be Christian per se, but as a Setian witch who is most drawn to the Greek Typhonian traditions, I firmly believe that Set and IHVH are really one and the same deity, and that Jesus Christ is a reincarnation or later manifestation of Osiris. I do not worship Osiris/Christ, but I am respectful to him and his followers. As far as worship goes I am a bit more like Muslims or Jews in that I believe "God the Father" - or Set - is the only deity that I should worship. As such it is no doubt tempting for some to call me a monotheist, but I don't really like limiting myself to any particular theological term like that. The way I see it, I believe there can be all kinds of different gods, I just regard Typhon as the highest. I suppose "henotheist" would work, but again I tend to view such categories as quaint at best.

Considering my position, I have gotten quite a lot of criticism for my beliefs. Not only do Christians and Muslims seem to find my theology "insulting" (I've never gotten too many objections from Jews, actualyl), but many Kemetic Neopagans also seem to find it "insulting." (And by "Kemetic Neopagan" I am speaking of all Egyptian-based pagan religions practiced in the contemporary world, including but not limited to Kemetic Orthodoxy.) Well it's not my intention to insult anyone, but the fact of the matter is that these associations were made two thousand years ago by the Typhonian hermeticists, long before I was born. I am certainly not the first person to identify Set with IHVH. Therefore, while these associations may not be to everyone's tastes, they are nevertheless part of an ancient tradition and this cannot be denied.

Furthermore, Set's historical worshipers - both in Egypt and outside of Egypt - quite enthusiastically identified Him with beliefs, practices, and theological paradigms that were alien to the established Egyptian traditions, because Set was always seen as a God of foreigners and foreign influences. Therefore, at least as far as my own practice is concerned, I do not believe a Setian is obligated to strictly conform to Egyptian theology (and even if he/she were, choosing which theology from which dynasty would be a frustrating matter in and of itself). In fact I feel it's almost a requirement in Setian religion to use ideas and correlations that were foreign to Egypt, as well as what is known about the Egyptian ones, because Set beckons us to always explore the strange, the foreign, and the unknown. As a God of trade and commerce He was the patron of anybody and everybody who crossed borders and sought to understand "the Other Side," whatever it happens to be in context.

Therefore I don't take too kindly to being told that I am "insulting" the Egyptian religions or the Netjeru by believing that Set and IHVH are the same. In any case, Set Himself has never complained to me about it, and has given me every indication that He encourages such identification. Therefore I will continue practicing my faith as I see fit and anyone who feels "insulted" by it will just have to feel "insulted."

That being said, again I do not worship Osiris/Jesus, but I do respect him. I consider him to be a powerful Netjer who is not really enemies with Set, but partners with Him. In terms of Jesus the historical man, I believe he was a great magician and prophet whose teachings can be useful to everyone, regardless of whether they are Christian or not. I also believe that if Jesus were walking the earth today, he would probably be spending most of his time talking to people like the folks in this thread, rather than hanging around the Pat Robertson types.

Again, excellent thread. :thumbsup:

EDIT TO ADD: While I believe the Bible was indeed inspired by Typhon, it was nevertheless written by mortal hands, and as it was translated and re-translated and garbled through the grapevine, I believe the original message was twisted to suit political and ideological needs, by both Jewish and Christian leaders. I do not regard the Bible as it exists today to be the "infallible word of God."

Oh interesting idea and in comparing Jesus to other pagan gods, I have always found similarities between Jesus and Zeus to be quite interesting. I don't know about Osiris though. THough I don't believe Jesus was reincarnated after his most famous life, I do believe he could've had other lives.

gillian_greenleaf
October 11th, 2008, 07:06 PM
Wow, this is a wonderful thread to find. I too (as many of you) have been struggling with this. I am Catholic and I am a witch. My path to this point has been through Wicca, which I still see as a valid and vivid religion. In particular, I was attracted to the Celtic Wiccan pantheon. As I was strongly attracted to Celtic Wicca, I find that I am more strongly attracted to Celtic Catholicism. I see many parallels if one approaches Catholicism outside the hierarchical and patriarchal structure of the official church. As so many of you have said, the bullsh** part is human created and attached to the culture of the time period. I go to mass, but I do not worship "God the father" there, although if that works for someone else, that's wonderful. I see a creator (goddess/god -- there is not a gender there -- this is an imposed paradigm), the child born of the creator, an individual who practiced magic in his own right (why male? would a female leader have been given ANY credibility at all within that culture?), and the spirit. This is what I see as the holy trinity. This works for me, although I know it won't for others. I work to separate the patriarchal fundamentalist attitudes from the message of the Christos. I am still working with this. In fact, I know I won't ever be done trying to understand what is essentially unknowable. I think that's why we call it faith.:ballonsmi

Cassandra2
December 26th, 2008, 07:33 AM
I am an angel medium. I use only stones, crystals, and herbs and flowers. I believe that the "gods" for the most part were and are angels. For example Mars/Michael. It is no accident that the church did this. If you saw Michael would you think he was a god? Of course you would.

Some magic is profane and forbidden to me. I only do what my angels tell me to so I do not read witchcraft books except out of curiosity. The Bible is really full of magic rituals.

I have compiled my stone and herb knowledge in my own book of shadows. Feel free to email me for info on where to find it. I can't post links on this forum.

gillian_greenleaf
December 26th, 2008, 02:40 PM
Some magic is profane and forbidden to me. I only do what my angels tell me to so I do not read witchcraft books except out of curiosity. The Bible is really full of magic rituals.

Cassandra ... Thanks for sharing your beliefs on trying to combine belief systems, but I'm just a bit mystified about what you talked about above. If I'm understanding, you believe there is good magic (what's in the bible) and bad magic (what's written in books about witchcraft) but it's okay to read about the bad magic/witchcraft.

Cloaked Raven
December 26th, 2008, 02:52 PM
Cassandra ... Thanks for sharing your beliefs on trying to combine belief systems, but I'm just a bit mystified about what you talked about above. If I'm understanding, you believe there is good magic (what's in the bible) and bad magic (what's written in books about witchcraft) but it's okay to read about the bad magic/witchcraft.
I'm a tad confused myself. Cassandra, could you please explain things in more detail so the rest of us can better understand your belief system? I'm intrigued... I've heard of the paths that follow the angels but never really had any of their beliefs and rituals explained to me. I would like to know for my own growing understanding of others' beliefs.

If you don't mind giving more details that is.
:)

Cunae
December 26th, 2008, 11:46 PM
Me, too! I had never thought of equating angels with gods, as some people may have until later clarifying who they really are in the big scheme of things... well, as much as we know from God, and that isn't much either!


And I believe angels interact with us... both heavenly and satanic angels. How that all works is not something I am clear about (in terms of my beliefs). As a matter of fact, I am doing some reading on just that.

Tobias
December 27th, 2008, 04:00 PM
I am an angel medium. I use only stones, crystals, and herbs and flowers. I believe that the "gods" for the most part were and are angels. For example Mars/Michael. It is no accident that the church did this. If you saw Michael would you think he was a god? Of course you would.

Some magic is profane and forbidden to me. I only do what my angels tell me to so I do not read witchcraft books except out of curiosity. The Bible is really full of magic rituals.

I have compiled my stone and herb knowledge in my own book of shadows. Feel free to email me for info on where to find it. I can't post links on this forum.


Wow!


Ok, my path can best be described as one of: becoming an angel. God has let me speak to, and see what it is that angels do, for the purpose of me adjusting my behaviour to emulate and become one of them. God is a Father to me, overseeing my spiritual training, and is known by me as God the Father of Christianity.

Top complicate things though, I have also been working with (mostly) Greek gods and goddesses. These I have found to be in submission to God, helping me in whichever way He directs them to do. For a while there I considered that possibly He was Zeus, thus they obeyed His lead; but can find no other reasons besides this to think so anymore. So I've concluded that the beings I know as the Greek Gods are on a similar par as the angels; this also being the gist of what I've experienced from my encounters with them.

I suppose that makes me a Henotheist. I see God more like the earlier biblical versions of Him, before monotheism took root. In Jonah we see the prophet going to Nineveh to foretell their destruction, and the people getting the message but repenting to El, not to YHWH. For many years back then El was an acceptable Canaanite equivalent for the Hebrew God. I believe the God I follow is known beyond simply the Hebrew and Christian knowledge of Him. Perhaps some did know Him as Zeus, but that's not my knowledge of Him.

I agree too that the bible is full of magick. I have found that there is a fine line between magick that is acceptable to God and that which is not. Perhaps too my relationship with Him prohibits me personally from most forms of it. I must trust Him for most of my needs. Beyond that, I am free to do as I please. I see no difference between forcing things through in the physical realm either through natural means or through magickal ones.

Cloaked Raven
December 28th, 2008, 12:44 PM
You know I've never expressed exactly what my beliefs are yet? And I've been a member for several months!! :foopsies:

I pray to the Christian Holy Trinity, the Saints and to Mother Mary... But lean more toward the Pagan side of my beliefs.

I acknowledge there are other gods/goddesses out there, I just don't follow their paths. I do acknowledge their wisdom and have seen proof of my friends' deities being with me if my friends have asked them to be. Example: A friend of mine asked Morrigan to watch out for me and ever since then, I've been seeing a LOT of crows around my house.

I make home made incense based on the magickal properties of the herbs used, I celebrate all the sabbats (both major and minor) I do Numerology, I use divination in one form or another, I believe in reincarnation instead of Heaven or Hell for the afterlife. I do cast spells occasionally...as a last resort to get rid of negative influences in mine or a loved one's life. I send energy to those who need help when I can.

My Atheist brother once described me as "pseudo-Wiccan" but to me, my beliefs are more of a Christian/Pagan Hybrid I guess.

Cloaked Raven
December 28th, 2008, 12:44 PM
You know I've never expressed exactly what my beliefs are yet? And I've been a member for several months!! :foopsies:

I pray to the Christian Holy Trinity, the Saints and to Mother Mary... But lean more toward the Pagan side of my beliefs.

I acknowledge there are other gods/goddesses out there, I just don't follow their paths. I do acknowledge their wisdom and have seen proof of my friends' deities being with me if my friends have asked them to be. Example: A friend of mine asked Morrigan to watch out for me and ever since then, I've been seeing a LOT of crows around my house.

I make home made incense based on the magickal properties of the herbs used, I celebrate all the sabbats (both major and minor) I do Numerology, I use divination in one form or another, I believe in reincarnation instead of Heaven or Hell for the afterlife. I do cast spells occasionally...as a last resort to get rid of negative influences in mine or a loved one's life. I send energy to those who need help when I can.

My Atheist brother once described me as "pseudo-Wiccan" but to me, my beliefs are more of a Christian/Pagan Hybrid I guess.