Discussion: What is a God/dess?

[Agaliha]

Here is a discussion suggested by Semicivilizedman: What is a God/dess?



Are gods archetypes in human subconsciousness?
Former humans whose legend has elevated them to godhood?
Beings that were there before human time began?
Beings who were created after humans as caretakers of humanity?
Personified elemental spirits?
The dead?
The fae?
Figments of imagination?


Thanks Semi :)

Keep in mind there is more options that aren't listed. What do you think and believe? What makes something a God or Goddess?

[semi]

Hey, what a great idea for a thread!

I think deities are refined conceptualized forms of more raw elemental forms in the collectibe subconscious, so, archetypes. For example, I thinkthere is something embedded in us that is a memory or an instruction of some kind that contains information on how to transcend the mundane world and access the spiritual world. This process involves self-sacrifice, so the concept is embedded in images of crucifiction. So we have Odin, Osiris, Shango, Jesus, etc, all who were wounded and crucified in some way to achieve a form of enlightenment or exaltation and all who were reborn in a superior form. I think there are many things like this buried in the mind, but people express them in different ways based on their culture.

I also think that there were humans throughout history who have performed feats and deeds that reinforced these archetypes and then became godlike in legend and folklore.

[Agaliha]

Hey that makes sense, Semi.
I also see the Gods as archetypes.

Out of all the definitions of beliefs I finally found two that are closer than any of the others--

functional polytheism – Symbolic use of polytheistic theology and terminology as a ritual tool or useful concept, without literal belief in the existence of multiple gods.
archetypal polytheism – Belief in multiple gods/goddesses as representing psychological (Jungian) archetypes, or elements of the human personality; belief that there are a relatively small set of unique gods/goddesses, and that gods/goddesses from different cultures who have similar personalities and domains are representations of the same god/goddess.
From: http://www.ksu.edu/psg/handout1.doc (http://www.ksu.edu/psg/handout1.doc)

I see the Gods as symbols/archetypes for things that are in our world. Whether it be the seasons, death, animals, the moon etc.

I think the Gods were our ancestors way for bring a sort of order into the world, to give things that they didn't necessary know about [why and what caused things] a reason and explanation.
For example the abduction of Persephone to explain the seasons. I don't see this as literal, I see it as a symbol and metaphor.

So in a thiestic way I don't believe in the Gods-- not in the sense that most do here. I don't see them as literal, living, active and interceeding, human-like entities in some other realm. I see them as part of us due to the fact that I see them as archetypes and archetypes resonate with us all. I see them as part of us in the sense that they explain and describe us and the world.
Nebt-Het for example-- I don't see her as a living, active Goddess. Rather I see her as a symbol for the Darker aspects of life. I can see her in parts of me...but not outside of me...if that makes sense.
Saraswati to me is a symbol of creative perfection. Writing, poetry, words, art, books-- all these things she symbolizes and I feel a closeness to her the most as those are things that are a major part of my life. Ditto to Seshet and books, libraries, and writing. I think if we look we can find the Gods within us.
I don't worship the Gods, I don't pray to anyone anymore, but I am not disrespectful either.
I also think what you believe is what it is. If you believe the Gods are there alive and real then they are--for you. If you don't, then they aren't. Durning the last few months I tried my hardest to see them as real in alive...but I coundn't. It only caused me problems. Does that mean they are all in our heads? Perhaps, but I do not know. I don't think we will ever know.

I also think our past lives draw up to a particular pantheon and Gods, as that is what our soul is used to.
For me it is the Kemetic pantheon...I know I have had a past life there, possibly as a scribe or temple worker. So for me the Kemetic Gods are more comfortable to me. I think the same goes for those drawn to the Greek, Roman, Hindu, and other pantheons-- past life connetions.

Anyway, I hope I explained that descent enough, if not I'll clarify.

I'm curious what others think.

[Poledra]

I can't believe I missed this thread the first time around. The nature of divinity is something that I have been struggling with since I first started exploring paganism a couple of years ago. On one hand, I love the idea of having there be another level of intelligence beyond our own. I think it is very egotistical to believe that we are the most powerful entities here and therefore I find the idea of having divinities very attractive. On the other hand, I've never really experienced anything that would lead me to believe in deities that are individual and outside of myself. I'm a very empirical person, so I have trouble believing in something without some sort of proof. So, all this adds up to mean that I'm not sure how I veiw deities as such.

I think at the moment I'm more inclined to see them as ways of accessing parts of myself I may not know how to understand otherwise, parts I need to externalize in order to accept - if that makes sense.

Poledra

[Agaliha]

Yeah! Thanks for getting the thread going again :)


Anyone else have anything to add?

[Driffinna]

While I do not claim to know what a god is, for a really don't know, I was in a discussion some number of months back and we were talking about the possibility of Gods, being ancestral figures. Who through time, legend, word of mouth etc got so big and important they became something else- a deity. With ancestral worship being something prevelant in many cultures, and with families with claims to ties supposedly to Gods I don't find it that hard to precieve that it is a possibility.

I don't see Gods are just archetypes with slightly different legends. I really feel every God and Goddess as individual, as their cultures are very different, with different customs, ideas, social structures, politics, influences, etc which is why I personally feel just merely being symbols is kind of selling the Gods short.

[Agaliha]

The ancestor idea is interesting. It makes sense too. I was reading a book called When God was A Woman and it mentioned that the first goddesses were really the female ancestors in the family line. That over time they became a Goddess like figure. Especially because the early neolithic peoples were almost always matrilineal. So in that sense it is possible that the Gods are just ancestors.


I don't see Gods are just archetypes with slightly different legends. I really feel every God and Goddess as individual, as their cultures are very different, with different customs, ideas, social structures, politics, influences, etc which is why I personally feel just merely being symbols is kind of selling the Gods short.

If you read about Awsós, the PIE Goddess of the Dawn as well as Ushas, Aurora and Eos -- they are all similar-- at times with a description of them, their appearance and duties you would have no idea which one is refering to.



Awsós
"Rising," the goddess of the dawn, the source of the Greek Eos, Roman Aurora, Vedic Ushas, Baltic Aushrine, and Germanic Eostre. She is the most confidently reconstructed of the Proto-Indo-European goddesses, both by name and by function. This is no surprise; dawn, after all, travels with the tribe. Although a beautiful maiden, Awsós is not all sweetness and light. Dawn is ambivalent. It is neither night nor day. The dark has been safely navigated, but the light is not yet here. And it might not come. Awsós is the keeper of the gates of dawn. Will she open them? There is always the chance that she might not. And even when she does come, her gift is ambivalent. Each day brings us closer to death. Awsós is therefore a goddess to be propitiated rather than befriended.
Even with the ambiguity, Awsós is an upholder of order. The sun does rise, and as long as we continue our own proper behavior it will continue to do so.
The ambiguity has another source. Dawn is a threshold, neither night nor day. Such transition points don't fit into the structure beloved by Indo-Europeans, so they share in both the promise and danger of Chaos. As a result, dawn rituals express some hopeful thinking and try to work a little magic. Through them it will be the promise we get, not the danger.
Awsós is connected with birch trees. The birch is, after all, one of the first trees to reawaken in the spring, and thus an apt symbol for a dawn and spring goddess. (There may be another reason; "birch" may be connected with a root meaning "to shine"
http://ceisiwrserith.com/pier/deities.htm#14


That was what I was refering to when I mentioned archetypes. You can find thoughout the world the Dieties fitting into an archetypal role. The Great Goddess. The Sky Father. Dawn Goddess. Trickster. Crone. On and on.
That doesn't mean they aren't unique. I wasn't saying that. I see them as unique to their time, place and culture but connected to something that ties all the Gods to each other and to an archetype.
Everyone has a Mother, but not every Mother is the same-- in fact none are. The same goes for the Mother Goddess-- I see them as the symbol of a mother, yet different and varried thoughout the world.
I don't think seeing them as symbols is selling them short. May people don't see the Gods as literal entities. For all we know in the very beginning the Corn Goddess was just a personification of corn, the people's staple food-- a face to go with the plant. Then later though time she became a Goddess, a Corn and Mother Goddess...who knows.

[Poledra]

Not only do the archetypes show up in deities, they show up in mythology. The dying god, the unusual birth, the flood, battle against earlier generations, loss of immortality, etc. All these themes are explored in astoundingly similar ways by a huge number of cultures across the world. Is this coincidence? Was there contact between Egypt and the Americas? Is it because they are based on fundamental human qualities and experiences we have due the nature of our species? Or is it because myths are based on messages from deities that have passed them on in culturally appropriate ways in different cultures?

Personally, I am more inclined to ascribe to the idea that myths and archetypes are based on fundamental human experiences, but who's to say?

So, is divinity similar?

Poledra

[KellyP]

This is always a great topic, especially when it can be discussed face-to-face. Everyone's answers to this point have been enlightening so I shall share my own opinions.

Deities serve to fill the role of parents or authority figures for humans that find themselves without such things to guide us or ease our fears directly. When we are young, there are villagers, parents, older family members to reward us or punish us as appropriate. These same figures hear us as we express our fears, share our heartaches, and calm us when the thunder comes at night. Unfortunately as we age our family dies away, our authority figures are found to have human flaws, and there is no one to hold our hands when we check on that "bump" we heard.

So we have deities to fill that role. We should be good because the Gods tell us to be good. If we are bad, the Gods will be displeased and do bad things. If we need help, the Gods will help us. If the lightning strikes too close, we can ask the Gods to protect us.

Because humans find comfort in so many different places, the Gods have taken many forms. Some find comfort in knowing that the forces of nature are controlled, hence elemental deities. Others find comfort in their human ancestry, hence Gods that gave rise to cultures. Thus, I believe the true answer is that Gods are ALL of those things listed.

For me, the Gods are the great ancestors that will aid and guide me as I care for my family and support others in my culture.

[Toby Stimpson]

Interesting question....but I don't think i could add much to the topic. I am still unsure of my definition of God, if it even deserves defining. I think but then i feel...and the feeling is strong that God is everything that is Human and more...when I think, I think of the old archetypes, but also of the essences of beloved and even hated. I think divinity is soemthing that is personal, and shared...and the personal can never really be put into words. or perhaps I am afraid to even try, becasue that reverance is there...and perhaps trying to divine the 'thing' I look up to would somehow diminish it's power?

Namaste

Tobias

[Morr]

I see the Gods and Goddesses as each being a seperate individual form of Divinity and being. They each have different personalities, different traits, different likes and dislikes, different powers, different prespectives.

To me they are literal forms of beings in a realm beyond ours, but they can most definitly reach down to our realm and world, guiding us, taking forms of nature to teach us and give us signs. I think we as humans can reach up to them (to a point).

I dont know if they are the absolute highest beings in the Universe. But I do see them as higher forms of beings. Wiser, more experienced.

Prehaps they are very old and ancient ancestors of various cultures and people whom have been enlightened and whom have reincarnated and achived their lessons and purpose, and now they guide us "little ones" on our own paths.

One thing I am certain of, they are there for a reason. They reach out to us for a reason -- Each person and his/her own Divinity. Be in The Judeo-Christian God, or any other Gods from any other culture and mythology.