self-righteous "Wiccans"

[Crimsonjen]

I'm here to ask for some feedback. I'm a moderator on a large website that was named after wicca but is openly accepting and welcoming to all neo-pagans and friendly types. My concern is the ever growing attitude of the list owner.

The owner began studying Wicca less than 2 years ago and after some intro classes the entire teaching group was initiated into a well known BTW tradition. They had essentially no further instruction beyond the generic 101 classes before the 1st degrees were handed out.

Over the past year and some, the owner has been getting preachier and preachier that BTW is the "true" wicca and to the point of getting preachy in peoples introduction posts.

As a mod, I feel like I should say something to him but most of his large coven are also mods as well as his teacher who is very self important and has not even read a new book on wicca since the 80's. (How about at least reading up on modern history please?)

So I feel an obligation to the new seekers to point out that BTW is not the only way to practice TWOO Wicca. I just don't want to be alienated off of the site or there will be few voices left who can speak for non-BTW's. Some members have actually left the site due to this preachy attutude.

I believe in diversity. I have been initiated into a branch of Alexandrian craft so I'm not just feeling the outsider looking in and slagging it thing. BTW just isn't for me or every pagan or every witch or wiccan.

My questions here is, what would you say? both in the forums or privately? I don't care that he believes this way but that he is so ruthless on the site that it's the true way and the site is so very popular and especially to newbies who need fair guidance to find the right path for themselves.

Thank you to those who take the time to answer thoughtfully. I appreciate your feedback.

Crimson~

[ancestral_lee]

ok, well first to clarify, what you in the US call british traditional Witchcraft, we in the UK call Wicca (either alexandrian or gardenarian). to us, traditional witchcraft is pre-gardner.

the mod has a point, Wicca is an initatory religion. if you arent initiated you arent a wiccan, you can follow a wiccan path but that doesnt make you wiccan, any more than reading a few medical books makes you a doctor.

that said, i would worry that someone is getting so self rightgeous and is handing out initiations like they are. you could always PM me the websiote address and i can go join the fun and get discussing with him, also find out if he is initated himself.

lee

[juliaki]

There's many great metaphors about what happens when you build a castle on shifting sands, and it sounds like that may be what happened here. From the sound of it, the list was founded by a bunch of people who were new to the Craft. Although that is not necessarily a bad thing, it does mean that there will be "growing pains" that will occur as the people who created the list go through spiritual changes. It sounds like you're facing one of those growing pains on that list right now.

You're probably aware of all the rest of this that I'm going to type, since you were initiated Alexandrian, but I'm going to put it out here in the hopes it spurs some good discussion, if nothing more.

It is not totally unheard of for people to be initiated in the length of time that you're suggesting with the amount of training that you're suggesting. Also, depending on the group, the only thing that an initiate can mention publicly that they went through is classes. Most likely there were other things that they had to do which aren't mentioned outside of that particular line.

Following initiation, there's a lot of changes that occur within a person, and it does take a while (from what I've heard...I'm still on the other side of the initiation process) for a person to find balance within themselves. It also is a life-changing event, and gives a different perspective about people who haven't been through certain things. It's easy to let the ego take over. For instance, I did a self-dedication about 10 years prior to going through the coven dedication rite. The coven dedication rite doesn't invalidate what I did between myself and the gods a decade earlier, but I can say that there is a world of difference between the two. I wouldn't say that someone's self-dedication was a "lesser" event, but I can say that unless you've been through them both, you can't have room for comparison.

So my guess is that this individual is going through the "swing back", whereby they're so blown away by their experiences that they can't honestly grasp why someone else wouldn't go for what they've experienced. Most people either mellow a bit about that or they pull away from people "outside the family."

Eventually things at the list will settle down, either by mellowing that occurs over time or by people moving on. I'd suggest not being confrontational about the issue either in public or in private messages, but just let the situation play out. If it doesn't resolve itself within a year and a day, I'd advise leaving the group and giving out contact information (or a new group information) to those people who you'd miss. Meanwhile, if you do come across some new folks that seem to be taking a beating from the admin, send them a private message in some way or other to explain that not everyone shares this individual's view and give them some good contacts for other places they could go to and feel a bit more welcome.

Hope that gives you some ideas to work with....

[Morgandria]

A technical question: Does the list owner have a large physical coven, or online? It isn't clear in your post whether he's been doling out 1st degree initiations in real-time, or online over his list.

Just curious.

Oh, and if you are an Alexandrian, you are a BTW (British Traditional Wiccan) too. :p

[Lunacie]

I'm fairly regular on another Wiccan discussion board and there are a coiuple of posters there that sound like the owner of the website you're describing. I do pretty much what Juliaki suggests in her post, I send them a private message if I can, letting them know that there isn't any "one true Wicca" although there are certain core practices.
And I suggest that they visit this board as well to get a bigger overview of Paganism and Wicca.

[LostSheep]

BTW is the "true" wicca

Surely one of the basic principles behind any Wiccan/pagan path is that none is the 'one true' one? I'd say he's more interested in his ego than in helping people understand anything about Wicca.

[DebLipp]

Surely one of the basic principles behind any Wiccan/pagan path is that none is the 'one true' one? I'd say he's more interested in his ego than in helping people understand anything about Wicca.
When people say that BTW is the only true Wicca, they don't mean that other paths are invalid, they mean that other paths aren't Wicca. It is an argument about how language is used. The word Wicca has been degraded in recent years. Originally, it meant only those people who were initiated members of a BTW trad (either post- or pre-Gardner). Then, it began to be used by Pagans who were practicing in ways similar to BTWs, whether or not they were initiates. Now, it is used by a huge range of people for a huge range of practices.

Language degrades, it is a natural process, which is why I am comfortable with a large variety of people using the word Wicca. I use modifiers—Traditional Wicca, Traditional-style Wicca, Eclectic Wicca—to clarify my meaning. However, those who say that Wicca should only be used to mean one thing have a point.

[Crimsonjen]

Ancestral Lee: His HPS is the one who initiated a dozen people after they had only had 4 meetings over 2 months to form what is now his r/t coven.

Juliaki: They have been a coven for 1 year and 8 months now. That's long enough for newbie zeal to wear off. He's getting more preachy as he goes, not less. Thanks for the advice. I'll use it.

Morgandria: The list owner is not initiating anyone. It was his HPS. she's pretty set in her ways beign the true ways too.

Debb Lipp: thanks for your response. I agree with you about how language evolves. My issue with the list owner is how he negates the validity of any path being wiccan even if it has a modifier unless it's BTW. It's like he looks down his nose at anyone who isn't lineaged using the term in a way he believes is incorrect.

[DebLipp]

Ancestral Lee: His HPS is the one who initiated a dozen people after they had only had 4 meetings over 2 months to form what is now his r/t coven.Which, as has been pointed out, is not untoward. Most U.S. covens have a much longer training period. However, in the old days, initiation was necessary before you could be trained, as training was considered proper only within the initiatory circle.

Debb Lipp: thanks for your response. I agree with you about how language evolves. My issue with the list owner is how he negates the validity of any path being wiccan even if it has a modifier unless it's BTW. It's like he looks down his nose at anyone who isn't lineaged using the term in a way he believes is incorrect.Right, I was responding to LostSheep, I realized your point was different. In my view, there are many valid paths, and while some BTWs defend the gates against misuse of the word, none of the good ones try to tell people that other paths aren't valid (they may just ask them to call it something else).

Frankly, I'd cut bait. You can't save the world from the Internet, and it sounds like a place you're uncomfortable. Don't sacrifice yourself for the good of people "out there." There are people "out there" at other websites where you'll feel more at home.

[Elderbush]

I tend to agree with DebLipp on this one. I was a member of a board that was moderated and dominated by BTW-style Wiccans. They hunted down in packs anyone who disagreed with them about BTW-style Wiccans being the only "real" Wiccans - very bad experience - and drove them out. New posters lasted one post on average. I still cringe whenever anyone mentions they are a BTW, but I'm getting over it.:)

Unless the mod will support non BTW-type posters, it is a lost cause. It will continue to be unpleasant for anyone who disagrees with them. Find a new more tolerant board where the people are the sort you'd actually like to know.

[KEishin]

It's unfortunate that so many BTW folks are that way. I also know plenty who aren't. Like in any relgion it's the vocal assholes that make it difficult for the rest of us.

But I think the real issue here is that said person on said board is just on an ego-trip. Anyone who'd truly made it to the level where they could initate would have gotten over the need to impress and bully.

[DebLipp]

Unless the mod will support non BTW-type posters, it is a lost cause. It will continue to be unpleasant for anyone who disagrees with them. Find a new more tolerant board where the people are the sort you'd actually like to know.
I am a member of one board where they get that way. Mostly, what they are saying is, 'here, on THIS board, these are the definitions we use. Please respect that. We realize on other boards other language is used.' Which is fair although sometimes it gets obnoxious.

My general experience of BTWs (and I know many dozens in person) is that they are great folks, laid back, focused, magical, fun. But on the Internet, the loud, strident, bossy ones tend to float to the top of the visible spectrum (to mix metaphors).

[Kudzu]

the mod has a point, Wicca is an initatory religion. if you arent initiated you arent a wiccan, you can follow a wiccan path but that doesnt make you wiccan, any more than reading a few medical books makes you a doctor.

When people say that BTW is the only true Wicca, they don't mean that other paths are invalid, they mean that other paths aren't Wicca.

I agree with Deb and Lee, here. But even though the list owner might be right about a few things, he may also be a jerk about it, also. My suggestion for you would be that, if you don't agree with his beliefs, or with the way he's stating them, or both, you should probably stop going to his site! Even though his website may not be a democracy, you can always "vote with your feet" and leave if things get unpleasant.

I'd love it if you could PM me with the URL for the site, too. I'm curious about his behavior!