Pentacle/pentagram:universal, or wiccan?

[Darkwater Stone]

Do you associate a pentacle/pentagram with wicca or paganism? or universal?
I feel that since it represents the 4 elements and spirit, it can be worn by any faith.
Any comments?
Are you christian or islamic or santerian or jewish who wears a pentacle and why?

[Tigerlily]

I think it's a very Pagan symbol. I often associate it with Wicca but I know that other non-Wiccan Pagans use it. If I was to see someone wearing one I would think "Oh she/he's Pagan".

I think it would be weird (No offense) if a Christian or Jew was to wear it, unless they practice Judeo-Paganism or something.

Makes sense? :s I don't know.

[Agaliha]

I see it as more universal than just Pagan...or rather open to non-Pagans.
There are forms of it in many cultures. Just like the cross is not just Christian-- it's found thoughout the world [old and new] with many different meanings.
Ditto to the Swastika [not the Nazi one, the other one]...and all the other symbols.
I also see the Pent as representing the elements and earth. In that sense anyone can wear it.

Here is just a snippet about the cross:
The cross is one of the most ancient human symbols, and is used by many religions, most notably Christianity. It is frequently a representation of the division of the world into four elements (or cardinal points), or alternately as the union of the concepts of divinity, the vertical line, and the world, the horizontal line (Koch, 1955).

The problem is that our society labels certian symbols as only beloning to one faith. The cross, for example, like I said is not just Christian [it was used way before Jesus...the ankh for example], yet we tend to think someone wearing one is a Christian. Same with the Pent, people now assume Pagan, Wiccan or Witch. When that may not be so.

A lot of faiths have rules against wearing certian symbols, like Muslims, so I doubt they would be wearing one. But there may be some out there, I don't know. I think those that are combining non-Pagan faiths with Paganism would be more likely to wear one.

[Darkwater Stone]

I see it as more universal than just Pagan...or rather open to non-Pagans.
There are forms of it in many cultures. Just like the cross is not just Christian-- it's found thoughout the world [old and new] with many different meanings.
Ditto to the Swastika [not the Nazi one, the other one]...and all the other symbols.
I also see the Pent as representing the elements and earth. In that sense anyone can wear it.

Here is just a snippet about the cross:
The cross is one of the most ancient human symbols, and is used by many religions, most notably Christianity. It is frequently a representation of the division of the world into four elements (or cardinal points), or alternately as the union of the concepts of divinity, the vertical line, and the world, the horizontal line (Koch, 1955).

The problem is that our society labels certian symbols as only beloning to one faith. The cross, for example, like I said is not just Christian [it was used way before Jesus...the ankh for example], yet we tend to think someone wearing one is a Christian. Same with the Pent, people now assume Pagan, Wiccan or Witch. When that may not be so.

A lot of faiths have rules against wearing certian symbols, like Muslims, so I doubt they would be wearing one. But there may be some out there, I don't know. I think those that are combining non-Pagan faiths with Paganism would be more likely to wear one.

Good imput...thanks!

[Mouse]

When I see a pentacle or pentagram i think "neo-pagan", and i'm anoyed when people wear the symbol of any faith when they are not apart of that faith. Like a 'friend' of mine who is wiccan wears a cross, she's the first to spit upon christianity if the opportunity presents itself, (and sometimes even when it doesn't) but doesn't have a problem wearing their symbol. For years I thought she was christian, untill I saw her making a scene at a school concert for christians. I don't know, it just strikes me as disrespectful.

I know early christians did use the pentacle, and I can understand why and that doesn't phase me, so I guess it depends on who the person is and why they are wearing it, and that it is worn as a symbol of faith not just because it's pretty.. if that makes scence.

[Tigerlily]

When I see a pentacle or pentagram i think "neo-pagan", and i'm anoyed when people wear the symbol of any faith when they are not apart of that faith. Like a 'friend' of mine who is wiccan wears a cross, she's the first to spit upon christianity if the opportunity presents itself, (and sometimes even when it doesn't) but doesn't have a problem wearing their symbol. For years I thought she was christian, untill I saw her making a scene at a school concert for christians. I don't know, it just strikes me as disrespectful.

I know early christians did use the pentacle, and I can understand why and that doesn't phase me, so I guess it depends on who the person is and why they are wearing it, and that it is worn as a symbol of faith not just because it's pretty.. if that makes scence.

I used to wear the Christian cross a lot because I am not out of the closet and I got so many as gifts, I used to wear it just for accessory. :rolleyes:

[magickman12]

I've read that Christians used the pentagram to represent the five wounds of Christ and the Hebrews used it as symbolic of the Torah. Pythagoras was said to have used it as a symbol of knowledge. The Celts used it. It was sacred to the goddess Kore because, if you cut an apple through its equator, you find a pentagram hidden inside with a seed in every point. That might be how the apple core (Kore) got its name. I think this is also tied with the apple story of Adam and Eve. The apple was from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The pentacle, as a symbol of knowledge, probably was the source of that story. Since the apple is associated with knowledge, that might be why children gave apples to teachers. It all stems from the pentagram. The planet Venus also makes a pentagram shape in the sky as it moves through the zodiac.
Pentagrams can be found on the American flag. Yeah they are colored in, but just like a square is still a square if filled in or not, the five-pointed star is the same. The pentagram is on the hood of every Plymouth vehicle. Upside-down, it is the Medal of Honor. It is everywhere.
So yeah, that looks pretty universal to me. Heheh

[BeigeAllen]

From http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/29/2914.html
This ideogram nowadays represents the Wiccan religion. For Wiccan believers the five points of the star sign in the circle represent spririt, earth, air, fire and water, or love, wisdom, knowledge, law and power. A version of this sign with the fivepointed star filled and with a small circle in its center, , has been used on tanks and fighter planes in the USA as a war sign.
This sign can be called a construction-iconic symbol for the planet Venus. This planet is the only one in our system that can clearly be identified with a simple graphic structure unambiguously derived from a plotting of its astronomical movements in space.
Click Here To Read The Complete Article (http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/29/2914.html)

Through history, a variety of artists have portrayed it a variety of ways. Those that make their own sigils and glyphs often use the "wheel" (space between inner and our rims of the circular border) to inscribe entire grimoires of linked spells using a variety of glyphs and lettering styles. Talismans have been made in this manner for a variety of purposes and the Pentagian tradition uses an extension of this practice to limit first and second year students to only as much study matter at one time as can be contained on one of their pentagrams.

[BlackMagicalCat]

Do you associate a pentacle/pentagram with wicca or paganism? or universal?
I feel that since it represents the 4 elements and spirit, it can be worn by any faith.
Any comments?
Are you christian or islamic or santerian or jewish who wears a pentacle and why?
Im a christian,and I wear my pentacle to honor the Goddess,who sent me a magical cat,and blessed me with her magic.I love her,and wanted her to know I belonged to her,and wasnt ashamed of her.So,I wear mine to church too.But everyone thinks its a Star of David,because they dont count the number of pionts on the star.:floating:

I feel like Im supposed to wear it.So,I also wear it to work too.Since they dont care.Besides,everyone wears all kinds of symbols at work,so,I wear mine,and my supervisor said it doesnt matter.

It makes me feel magical somehow.And mine is special.I bought it hear on one of the advertisers of MW.

But,I keep mine on all the time,except when Im in the shower.

I sleep with it on,and just never take it off.

[zilith]

I always considered it a pagan symbol. though not nessisarily Wiccan.

[Mithrea]

I can find stars in the symbolism and literature of most religions. I still think of it as the primary symbol for paganism though. :)

[LostSheep]

I'm not a Wiccan, I'm a more kind of Christian flavoured pagan, but i wear a pentacle... one thing I've been wondering is, as we've talked about its significance to early Christianity, is it disrespectful or seen as blasphemous to wear one in a church? I like the atmosphere in churches, and like I said I still follow some aspects of Christianity, so would it be seen as disrespectful if I wore my pentacle in church? Not actually attending services, just looking around? Would I be in danger of being exorcised?

[Silver Flame]

I associate the five-pointed star with any form of paganism since it represents the elements. Paganism in any form, I believe, are nature-based religions. Christianity, Judaism, Islam... Their beliefs don't really have anything to do with the natural order of things.

[CzechWoods]

not all pagan paths associate air, water, fire, earth, spirit being the elements

and not all paths associate the pentagram with those 5 elements of the wiccan faith system

to many, as said before, it is a symbol of the human, with arms/hands spread out to
embrace/invoke/call/good-bye etc or enchant in general.

just thought i d point that out.


i do see teh pentacle to be a sign of paganism, or wicca or sometimes just worn by "goths" to shock their parents

dont flame me for the latter - tis true :)

[BlackMagicalCat]

I'm not a Wiccan, I'm a more kind of Christian flavoured pagan, but i wear a pentacle... one thing I've been wondering is, as we've talked about its significance to early Christianity, is it disrespectful or seen as blasphemous to wear one in a church? I like the atmosphere in churches, and like I said I still follow some aspects of Christianity, so would it be seen as disrespectful if I wore my pentacle in church? Not actually attending services, just looking around? Would I be in danger of being exorcised?

Well,no one has said anything to me yet,but,I feel like every time they end the service,and they keep saying,IS ANYONE HERE WHO NEEDS TO BE SAVED,Would you please raise your hand,And,I feel like they are trying to save me all over again,and im getting real tired of it.

So,you more than likely will be saying when you wear it,Im not saved,please save me,Im a satan worshiper.

Thats what they will be more than likely thinking.

they dont know the prayers I have prayed for others,while they sit at home and watch football.Nothing against football mind you.I told them,Im already saved.But,they look at me like,,,,sure you are,,,you poor thing.

No,really ,Im a christian,honest.But,they wont believe it.If I had a dime for every time I had to explain to christians where the bible talks about a woman who is a tree of life to those who lay hold on her,I would be a millionaire.

Now,all my exwifes family is treating me the same way,and my son is starting to look at me funny,and it bothers the hell out of me.It only makes me more determined to honor the Goddess even more.

Why am I even going to church?Because I told God if he would give me a job where I cold be home,and not out driving my 18 wheeler,I would go.And I told him I would go to the first church that invited me,and it happened to be this baptist church.

So,Im being true to my word for now.But my patiance is running thin.But the people there are nice,no one justs says much to me.The pastor said he was going to come and visit me,but hasnt yet.Tabitha will probably have a holy fit ,and go into a rage,she doesnt like anyone too much,except me of coarse.

I dont know why she is that way either.

Why am I saying all this?Because im angry .

so,if you wear your pentacle to church,you will be making a statement,that,Im not like you.They will see it as satanic,and will try to save you.

Good luck.

[Ninjakitten]

I wear a silver pentacle, a gold cross, and a silver cross with a pentacle on it. The pentacle means 3 different systems of things to me, and each one is important to me and was used historically (before Wicca even existed).

1) yeah, to me it's the 5 wounds of Christ, 2) the 5 elements that make up Godde's Creation, and to wear a symbol acknowledging that is a way for me to tell others (who know better) that I recognize that what Godde created is more important than the petty things man creates in general (ie, I'm a nature based liberal in religious belief Christian witch... though possibly more of a druid according to my druid friends... well see), and 3) here's a new one, it's the 5 elements of Ninjitsu. I studied Koga Ninjitsu for 2-3 years and the 5th element is either wood, metal, or void depending on which aspect of ninjitsu you are talking about ("flavor" of hand to hand style, meditation, or philosophy, not respectively). To me, I actually have more excuses... er, reasons to wear it than the average person who wears it, not that I have more right to wear it, though. Oh, and it kind of represents that my witchcraft has a Wiccan flavor to it, but I usually leave that out when I explain this to people.

[Tigerlily]

Ninjakitten---- "Godde"?

[Agaliha]

Ninjakitten---- "Godde"?

A thread: God or Godde? (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=109504&highlight=Godde)


And--
Godde: God for the "male characteristics" and de extending the meaning toward Goddess for the "female characteristics;"
"Godde is inferred to be "not only male and/or female, but more -- open ended into eternal Mystery." To our eye when we read it, the spelling is "incomplete" just like our knowledge of Godde, who is Mystery, and who is more than male and female and all that our present theologies can describe."


I'm sure Ninjakitten can explain further if she wishes.

[Tigerlily]

Thanks. :)

[Crystal Raven]

:rant:
i know all the history stuff about different symbols including the cross and pentacle, but in todays society there are certain symbols associated with certain faiths, cross for christians, star of david for jews, pentacles for pagans etc...so I am in the "respect" boat. If you have a connection to the Goddess, nature or whatever, then by all means wear a pentacle, if not, then just don't. I would never wear a cross or an ankh or a star of david as a "decoration" as they are religious symbols with deep &/or special meaning for many people and out of respect I would not turn them into "baubles". I also do not say cuss words involving other religious dieties that I do not have any involvement in like Jeus H. Christ or God Damn etc...As for these goths that wear many different religious symbols for prettiness, don't even get me started, I think it is just as offensive if they have a cross on that means nothing to them and would love to go around and rip them off their bodies and hand them over to churches, priestesses, rabbis or whatever to give to those that find meaning in them but may not be able to afford them!!!

[Faery-Wings]

IMHO, a symbol only has meaning that *you* personally attach to it.Now, that doesn't mean people are going to agree with you are that they won't jump to assumptions based on the symbol you chose to wear.
I have two necklaces that I like to wear, both are from Kohl's dept store. The one is a Celtic knot circle. What that means to me is that we are all connected.On all levels from the beginning of time through eternity. It is my reminder that in my own personal belief system, that we all come from the same Source.
The other necklace that I have is a plain silver circle on a blacl cord. That is my symbol of the full moon- a reminder of the power and love of the Goddess.

Back to the original question, again in my opinion-- a symbol truly belongs to no one group. However, if you chose to wear a symbol that is generally recognized as belonging to one particular group, be prepared to be placed in that group on first glance. For ex, the swastika was not an "evil" symbol until it was corrupted by the Nazi's. But if you chose to wear it for its power meaning rather than anti-Semetic...be prepared to be lumped in with the Neo- Nazi community.

[LostSheep]

Very good point about the swastika ... it's still regarded as a good luck symbol in Hinduism, i believe. There it was, around for thousands of years with only positive images attached to it, then a genocidal psychopath decides he'll grab it for his completely made up mythology, and the image of it completley changes.

[Ptah]

Very good point about the swastika ... it's still regarded as a good luck symbol in Hinduism, i believe. There it was, around for thousands of years with only positive images attached to it, then a genocidal psychopath decides he'll grab it for his completely made up mythology, and the image of it completley changes.

The Nazi swastika was a reversal of the Solar sign. The subversion of it was that it drew in energy rather than spread it around. To have used it magickally reversed, though perverted, was a stroke of genius.

Someone on this thread posted about the cross being an ancient symbol.. that is correct but there was no distiction made between the equal arm cross and the Christian symbol by the author. It is the equal armed cross that is an ancient symbol... not the other.

[Ptah]

[quote]The problem is that our society labels certian symbols as only beloning to one faith. The cross, for example, like I said is not just Christian [it was used way before Jesus...the ankh for example], yet we tend to think someone wearing one is a Christian. Same with the Pent, people now assume Pagan, Wiccan or Witch. When that may not be so.

Oops.. the ankh is not a cross, that's a common Christian wish-conception. The hieroglyph Ankh more than likely represents a sandal strap, but it most certainly does not represent the cardinal points, crucifixion or anything similar to the Christian esoteric meaning of "The Cross".

Why not pick a hieroglyph that more matches a cross than an Egyptian symbol for life? (Such as the hieroglyph "yun' or 'iun", to illuminate, the determinative "uba", to rub down, an actual Christian looking cross, and the hieroglyph that means "at this place", an equal arm cross inside a circle.) The reason those hieroglyphs are not associated with any Christian belief is because they carry little or no esoteric value. There are very few symbols that can claim Christian origin, but "The Calvary Cross" is one. However, there are many symbols and systems adopted by the church that do have more ancient roots. That the church has adopted some only goes to its attempts for validation and acceptance by the masses of the Christian faith.

[LadyCelt]

what's interesting is the advent candle display i think has four candles at four corners of a circle than one in the iddle of another. could this be the four elements and the spirit of the Lord in the middle?

http://www.ruzica.ca/Tulse%20Luper/Images/adventcan.jpeg

http://www.trials.com.au/photos/adventcandleswib.jpg

http://www.appleseeds.org/advnt20c.gif

[Agaliha]

Oops.. the ankh is not a cross, that's a common Christian wish-conception. The hieroglyph Ankh more than likely represents a sandal strap, but it most certainly does not represent the cardinal points, crucifixion or anything similar to the Christian esoteric meaning of "The Cross".
<snip>


I wasn't saying it was exactly the same as the Christian cross. Only that it is of a cross-like shape. I know all about it's representation, meaning and everything else, like you I am a person drawn to kemet and I have been reading and learning about it since I was a child.
It was bad phrasing on my part.
My point with mentioning the Ankh was to say that cross like shapes [long vertical, crossed with a short horizonal] where around long before the Christians and what we know call "the cross".
I wasn't intending for that is mean the Ankh has the same meaning as the Christian cross because I know it doesn't.
And the italicized quote I posted was not refering to the Ankh, but to the general symbol of a cross--which can appear in many forms. The Ankh I have seen classified in the category of "cross" because of it's design and shape.
Nowdays the Coptic Chistians have taken the Ankh and turned it into their cross-- the crux ansata.

Wikipedia: Cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross) --has tons of pics too.
"A cross is a geometrical figure consisting of two lines or bars intersecting each other at a 90° angle, dividing one or two of the lines in half. The lines usually run vertically and horizontally; if they run diagonally, the design is technically termed a saltire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltire)."

According to that-- the Ankh is a cross. ::shrug::
Cross doesn't = only Christian.... there are many crosses found in the old and new world in many cultures and places...

:strike:

[Ninjakitten]

A thread: God or Godde? (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=109504&highlight=Godde)


And--
Godde: God for the "male characteristics" and de extending the meaning toward Goddess for the "female characteristics;"
"Godde is inferred to be "not only male and/or female, but more -- open ended into eternal Mystery." To our eye when we read it, the spelling is "incomplete" just like our knowledge of Godde, who is Mystery, and who is more than male and female and all that our present theologies can describe."


I'm sure Ninjakitten can explain further if she wishes.


No need. That's pretty much what I use "Godde" for.

[cheddarsox]

I don't use or wear a pentacle because it seems to have become the symbol for Wicca, and I am not. Many people already assume pagan=Wicca, no need to further this misconception.

I don't feel any special connection to pentacle, or have any history with it, so no biggie.

cheddar

[BeigeAllen]

IMHO, a symbol only has meaning that *you* personally attach to it.

:rant: Some may think I am silly, but why are there so many Pagans that would rather muddy the meanings of the symbols than study to find out what they were meant to symbolize? It's not like you can't find the information. If you are reading this you have the same searching tools the rest of us do.

This mini rant is not about pentagrams nor is it specifically directed at any one person. It is not meant to be a rant about us all fitting into one mold. It is simply directed at those who have chosen to make it up as they go along because they are too lazy to do their homework on a subject and then expect those of us that did ours to accept an ill informed opinion as being equally valid to an informed one. I merely chose Faery's post to quote because it had the statement so prominantly displayed.

Here's another example:
The hieroglyph Ankh more than likely represents a sandal strap, but it most certainly does not represent the cardinal points, crucifixion or anything similar to the Christian esoteric meaning of "The Cross".

Those who took a classical mythology course that covered Egyptian symbols know that the ankh stood for Hathor's staff which she used to give life, as well as to symbolize reproduction and sexual union. Over time it came to colloquially symbolize life and zest for life, mostly due to its sexual connotations. It is no accident that the loop resembles the vulva while the crosspiece suggests the penis and testes.

Sometimes the ankh is called the key of the Nile. The symbol is associated with Imkotep (living around 3000 B.C.), physician for the Pharaoh's family. Long after his death Imkotep was made the god of medicine or healing in Egypt. That is why this symbol is used as the logotype for a multinational pharmaceutical manufacturer.

The problem with not knowing the intended meaning of a symbol is that when you wear it, the meaning is applied to you by those who have taken the time to study its intended meaning. To feel insulted by those people would be the same as to go out wearing a shirt that reads "Will fornicate for food" and get offended when some guy walks up to you with a cheeseburger asking "Is here and now good for you?" If you don't know what a word is, don't use it and if you don't know what a symbol is then don't use it. Learn the meanings first to make sure you are not sending unintended messages.

In short, you have the right to believe whatever you want, but with it goes the responsibility to find out what your beliefs mean to others. Forewarned is well armed and helps us prevent our paths being misrepresented.

[Ptah]

The following is from the article you referenced:

"This unit of 1,460 years is the Egyptian Sothis' year and belongs not only to the god Seth-Sirius, but much more to the goddess Sothis. And this goddess was no other than ... Venus herself."

This is absolutely incorrect. The rising of Sirius was the goddess Sothis (Sopdet), not Set(Seth) nor was she Venus. The Egyptian new year started when Sirius was situated directly above the rising sun "like a jewel on the diadem of Ra". The Egyptians were well aware of who Venus was... their name for the Egyptian Venus diety was Pi-neter-djuau and he was male.

[EternalMaiden]

Is it possible that the ankh is the pagan aspect of the cross? I could very well see the feminine being changed into the head of Jesus Christ. From what once represented Universiality now represents the ancient truth "Life is Suffering". Just a theory....

I may have missed something, if so I apologize in advance as I'm going back to read in a second, but the only other star-like pentagram is the Star of David, correct?
Anyone know what that star represents?

[Faery-Wings]

but why are there so many Pagans that would rather muddy the meanings of the symbols than study to find out what they were meant to symbolize? It's not like you can't find the information. If you are reading this you have the same searching tools the rest of us do.


Just as a reply to you since you chose my post to use as example.
1.Please don't presume that I haven't done my homework. I know what a pentacle and a pentagram symbolize. I don't wear either of them, perhaps b/c they do not mean anything to me. How does that make me "muddying things" or being lazy? I know that you weren't directing your rant soley at me, but I don't think that symbols belong to only those who study them.

2. I am not Wiccan either, so I don't have to fit in any sort of mold. I answer only to myself and how I see the Divine. So if I want to wear a silver circle as *my* interpretation of Her... again... how is that being lazy or uneducated?
In short, you have the right to believe whatever you want, but with it goes the responsibility to find out what your beliefs mean to others. Forewarned is well armed and helps us prevent our paths being misrepresented.
I am sorry but I don't buy that for one second. For me that is like saying I can't grow an evergreen tree b/c someone might mistake that as a Christmas tree (regardless or which group thinks it "owns" that as a symbol). Since I wear a circle as a symbol, I don't see how that makes me irresposible.

If you read my whole post, I tried very clearly to expalin that the symbol only has meaning to you as you interpret it. In other words, if you want to see a circle as an evile eye always watching you, so be it. I also said to be open to the idea that not every sees it the same as you. But If the rest of the world sees the swastika as evil, yet it is a symbol of power to you, should you chose not to wear it?

IMO, symbols speak to you directly as well as through scholarly research. To ignore one of the other is not "honoring" the symbol itself.
Just my two cents.

[enchancea]

paganism

[BeigeAllen]

The following is from the article you referenced:



This is absolutely incorrect. The rising of Sirius was the goddess Sothis (Sopdet), not Set(Seth) nor was she Venus. The Egyptian new year started when Sirius was situated directly above the rising sun "like a jewel on the diadem of Ra". The Egyptians were well aware of who Venus was... their name for the Egyptian Venus diety was Pi-neter-djuau and he was male.

Cool, I will make note of that in future references of that article. This is how we learn. Will be sharing karma with you in return for the education.:)

[BeigeAllen]

In short, you have your opinion, which allows you to use anything you like, anyway you like. However, while you have the right to your opinion, you do not have the right to be free of the consequences of having that opinion.

If, knowing what a swastika means, you still think that it is a power symbol, that's your choice. If you studied it then you weren't being lazy. If you wear it though, you cannot expect a Holocaust survivor to respect your choice, regardless of what it means to you, to them it is a symbol of the biggest nightmare of their lives.

If you are going to invent new meanings why not just expend a little more effort and create a whole new symbol that incorporates the parts of the different symbols that do mean something to you?

As for the rest of your post, the only part I am going to address is that I read your post twice before I posted mine, and reread it as I was typing. Next time I would suggest you do the same with mine as not one place did I say anything about Wicca or about you not doing your homework or much of any of the other things you chose to make comments about.

[Faery-Wings]

In short, you have your opinion, which allows you to use anything you like, anyway you like. However, while you have the right to your opinion, you do not have the right to be free of the consequences of having that opinion.

Yes, and that is what I said in my first post: "But if you chose to wear it for its power meaning rather than anti-Semetic...be prepared to be lumped in with the Neo- Nazi community."

If, knowing what a swastika means, you still think that it is a power symbol, that's your choice. If you studied it then you weren't being lazy. If you wear it though, you cannot expect a Holocaust survivor to respect your choice, regardless of what it means to you, to them it is a symbol of the biggest nightmare of their lives.

The word SWASTIKA is derived from the Sanskrit word: SVASTIKAH, which means 'being fortunate'. The first part of the word, SVASTI-, can be divided into two parts: SU- 'good; well', and -ASTI- 'is'. The -ASTIKAH part just means 'being'. The word is associated with auspicious things in India - - because it means 'auspicious'.

"The swastika symbolizes so much more than what the Nazis planned. The swastika existed as a symbol of good fortune thousands of years before the Nazis even existed. The symbol is to many cultures an important one, representing their history and beliefs. The Nazis, by taking the swastika, annihilated the significance of the ancient symbol. Today, the swastika is to most people a symbol of evil, a symbol of demise, and a symbol of ruination. It is extremely depressing to find that although the swastika is a symbol of life, and symbol of joy, it has been made a symbol of evil, something the people of the ancient world never intended it to be." by Chirag Badlani
Fromhttp://www.falundafa.org.il/ver_01/english/wan_eng.htm



As for the rest of your post, the only part I am going to address is that I read your post twice before I posted mine, and reread it as I was typing. Next time I would suggest you do the same with mine as not one place did I say anything about Wicca or about you not doing your homework or much of any of the other things you chose to make comments about


Then what did you mean by this:It is simply directed at those who have chosen to make it up as they go along because they are too lazy to do their homework on a subject and then expect those of us that did ours to accept an ill informed opinion as being equally valid to an informed one. I merely chose Faery's post to quote because it had the statement so prominantly displayed.

No you didn't mention Wicca, but I wanted to clarify thatI am not Wiccan so as to not step on any toes of those who practice a Trad form of Wicca. However, it seems pretty clear to me that you implied that I hadn't done my homework.

Look- I have no problem whatsoever with differing opinions- hence the words I used "my two cents" "for me" and IMO. However, when people assume that I am lazy, when in fact my beliefs are due to informed decisions, it is hard no to take that as an attack.

[Ptah]

Is it possible that the ankh is the pagan aspect of the cross? I could very well see the feminine being changed into the head of Jesus Christ. From what once represented Universiality now represents the ancient truth "Life is Suffering". Just a theory....

I may have missed something, if so I apologize in advance as I'm going back to read in a second, but the only other star-like pentagram is the Star of David, correct?
Anyone know what that star represents?

No, it is not possible. The aspect of the cross represents the slain Messiah to the Christians. The ankh symbol means life not death, which is what the cross represents. Most often we find "ankh' used in conjunction with the words, "utcha", "seneb" (meaning Life, strength and health) as blessing to the living. That blessing has no meaning to the dead as none of any of that will do them any good nor is it needed where they are headed. The Egyptians have no corresponding symbol of a crucified messiah. The Djed (hieroglyph for backbone of Osiris) is probably the closest representation of that concept as the Messianic story closely parallels the Osirin mythos.

Better Egyptian symbols for death would be Mut (Vulture), Ma'at(feather), Ba (spirit bird) or five rayed star (seba or tua) and for resurrection the Scarab (beetle) or Benu (Phoenix). The concept that the ankh is somehow tied to Christianity is just pretty much hopeful rationalization, the ankh truly has no more meaning to Christianity than it does to Shintoism, or Hinduism, or any other of the great religions. It is also very important to consider the timeline of events during the rise of Christianity and the fall of the Egyptian empire, when considering such things. Pax Egypt didn't exisit as Egypt after appx. 400bce (Persian invasion), the Christians (Mark) showed up around 70AD. I feel that because the physical "Ankh" was so closely tied to Egyptian diety, that any fledgling religion would try to associated itself with it to validate their own belief and concept of diety. This is shown in how the early Christians correlated the healing works of Jesus with those of ImHotep or Aescelpyus (sp?). The Christians took the Temple of Karnak and Denderah and turned them into a churches. Most certainly, they would have glommed on to any sacred symbols they came across. In fact, the early Copts did use a modified "Ankh" as a sacred symbol but the Copts adopted it because they were Egyptian, living in Egypt and worshipping in converted Egyptian Temples. They would have been surrounded by Gods and Goddesses carrying ankhs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh
http://www.ancient-egypt.org/glossary/ankh.html
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/ankh.html


While I do not agree with everything on the following site, it might you understand a little better.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/out-of-egypt.html

[LadyCelt]

If Jesus never existed how do you explain Him documented in thign sbesides just the bible?

[Ptah]

If Jesus never existed how do you explain Him documented in thign sbesides just the bible?

In fact, Jesus the man did exist, many of them existed. I believe that if you click on the link you will find that they are talking about the post-Nicean concept of Jesus as the son of god and how a lot of it parallels the Ancient beliefs contained in the mythos of Horus, Isis, Set and Osiris. This site is obviously a secular site biased against Christianity and Catholicism. However, if you look past that, you'll find that the basic information is fairly accurate.

[Ptah]

My point with mentioning the Ankh was to say that cross like shapes [long vertical, crossed with a short horizonal] where around long before the Christians and what we know call "the cross".<snip>

I wasn't picking on you, I just kinda jumped in after your post. Regardless, shapes are merely shapes, it is more important to look at their esoteric meaning within the context of what they truly are. We believe that within the early beliefs the "ankh" was considered vulva and penis, thus representing creation (life). The Christian symbol is one of death, not life. That the ankh's form resembles the Roman means of punishment has no relevance.

<snip> The Ankh I have seen classified in the category of "cross" because of it's design and shape.
Nowdays the Coptic Chistians have taken the Ankh and turned it into their cross-- the crux ansata.

Once again, because the Latin Romans called it a "carrying cross" makes no difference to its original meaning. That was some 800 years after the decline of Egypt. Most of the Temples had been ransacked, converted into churches and the language (medu neter) had been lost. They could have called it a tennis racket, it doesn't make it one.


Wikipedia: Cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross) --has tons of pics too.
"A cross is a geometrical figure consisting of two lines or bars intersecting each other at a 90° angle, dividing one or two of the lines in half. The lines usually run vertically and horizontally; if they run diagonally, the design is technically termed a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross)saltire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltire)."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross)

Once again, this is merely geometric similarities. Compare those two energies, to an intersection (crossroads) and a road that intersects but leads into a cul d' sac. The energies are very different. Each part of a "cross" leads away from the axis at all points, with the "ankh" one leg of the "cross" leads back to its origin.

According to that-- the Ankh is a cross. ::shrug::
Cross doesn't = only Christian.... there are many crosses found in the old and new world in many cultures and places...

This is a Coptic cross.. http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/-/U/2/copticcross.jpg (http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/-/U/2/copticcross.jpg)

I guess it does have a crossed line (2) but I truly don't see a similarity or any reason to confuse it with the Ankh. It looks like an ankh with an equal armed cross in the center. It is a modified ankh, at best.

This is the latin cross http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/W/L/2/cross.jpg the shape we normally associate with a cross.

This is the first symbol of the Helenic Cross,
It is the first cross to represent the crucifixion... http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/c/F/2/chiro.jpg
it is a combination of the greek letters letters Chi&Ro. The symbol originally stood for the God Chronos.

The first cross to represent christ was the greek cross, but it had nothing to do with the crucifixion. http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/s/R/2/anthonycross.jpg

"The Greek cross (Also called crux saltire or saltier) looks like a large "X," and represents in Christianity the initial of Christ, the Greek letter chi. It is the original Christian cross, predating the latin cross by several hundred years." http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsandrewscross.htm


http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/k/N/2/sankh.jpg

And finally the ankh, though all of these may be considered crossed figures, none but the ankh represents life. It bears absolutely no resemblance to the Original cross (greek).

Thanks for conversing with me on this Bella Terre. While you may know about all of this, it is obvious that there are many posting on this thread that don't know the first thing about symbology.

[Omaedon]

In my own opinion, I think the pentagram is mainly a symbol of paganism, even though it's seen everywhere else. On car hoods...nothing to do with it's true meaning, it's put there simply as a symbol, like Pontiac has the Red diamond with the sparkle in the center, Subaru has some stars in a blue circle...it's just a trademark icon, nothing more. As a medal of honor...the star is upside down, changing it's meaning. The true meaning for the pentagra, is the 4 lower points represent the elements, and the top point is life/spirit/humanity whatever you prefer, and it's created that way putting life etc. above the elements.

In satanism however...it has the same meaning, but has been flipped upside down putting the elements above life. So basically...In my opinion the actual Star in it's original position with a circle around it, is mainly a pagan symbol.

[Mindasue]

can someone please tell me where the elements are represented on the pentagram? i've been looking for ever and can't find a diagram or anything....please pm me a diagram or at least tell me where they are going clockwise from the top....thanks bunches!

[Ninjakitten]

I found this one, which seems to be consistent with others I found.

[iucey]

I may have missed something, if so I apologize in advance as I'm going back to read in a second, but the only other star-like pentagram is the Star of David, correct?
Anyone know what that star represents?

hope these information is useful...

The six points of the Star of David symbolize God's rule over the universe in all six directions: north, south, east, west, up and down.

i quote this from this website there's more information there:
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Star_of_David.asp


i wear pentagram

what i feel is that it link me to the god , give me strength and so on...

when my classmates saw what i was wearing....
most of them though that it's just a necklace lucky me because most of them know nothing about wiccan...
then one of them say that it's evil because it's without the circle

i told her that the star represent the sun and the circle is the moon (what i feel actually)
then i turn my pentagram untill 2 points face the sky i tell her that's what satanist...
she don't seem to believe me...
when i reach home i did some research and asking my mentor for information... (i'm in the adopt a newbie programme new to this path)
next day i went and explain to her but she still don't believe me till now :(