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Nemesis Descending
November 26th, 2005, 05:15 PM
I sincerely don't mean anything here to be offensive or disrespectful, but I have to ask this question:

Do you think the Christian Witch activity is really comprised of Christians who want to be Witches/Wiccans, or do you think that this is about Christians posing in order to bring people to Jesus? Or is this about subversion in an attempt to bring divisiveness into our Community?

There seems to be an increasing number of "Christian Witches" posting on the Internet, and now here on MW the number of posts related to Christianity, the Bible, and Jesus are increasing.

Do you think this is for real or is our Community being targeted for conversion, and we're having the wool pulled over our eyes?

bodleian
November 26th, 2005, 05:55 PM
There's a movement?

I didn't know that- I thought it was just me.

For my part, I am a Christian, but I am also a Witch.

I subscribe to the belief that all religions are just different ways of loving God (and Goddesses). I would never presume to try to convince someone else that what works for me spiritually would necesarily work for them.

I am ecumenical in my Christian faith- meaning I don't believe any one faith is the "true" faith. And in my view, Christianity is just one more way of loving God/dess. I realize this makes me a bit of a heretic in Christian circles, but in the end, the only opinion that matters is God's.

But that is just me. I can't speak for the rest of the "movement" since I don't claim to be a part of it. ;)

RedRaven
November 26th, 2005, 05:59 PM
I selected "im not sure what to think" because I didnt like the wording used in the question and choices. If someone means "christian witch" in the form that they are christian and practice magic then I have no problem with that, go right ahead. if the person uses the word "witch" to mean "wiccan" (which I dont agree with one bit) then I say the person is neither christain nor wiccan. as far as ive seen the mixture resembles neither so they should just use a different name for this mixture. there is conflicting dogma and I dont support the whole "christian wiccan" nonsense.

RR

Calen
November 26th, 2005, 06:22 PM
I don't think many Christians (much less a 'movement' of them) would say they are something they are not to convince the other kids to come play on their side of the religious playground; or at least, they wouldn't go so far as to say they were witches.

When I see someone claiming to be a Christian witch, I think they adhere to some form of Christian belief, and also happen to practice magic.

Ninjakitten
November 26th, 2005, 06:24 PM
I'm going to wait for more people to answer before I tell you my thoughts on Christian witches since I am one. I'll leave it at all of the above could be true depending on the Christian witch.

Heart of Isis
November 26th, 2005, 06:24 PM
I sincerely don't mean anything here to be offensive or disrespectful, but I have to ask this question:

Do you think the Christian Witch activity is really comprised of Christians who want to be Witches/Wiccans, or do you think that this is about Christians posing in order to bring people to Jesus? Or is this about subversion in an attempt to bring divisiveness into our Community?

There seems to be an increasing number of "Christian Witches" posting on the Internet, and now here on MW the number of posts related to Christianity, the Bible, and Jesus are increasing.

Do you think this is for real or is our Community being targeted for conversion, and we're having the wool pulled over our eyes?
Great question! I'm not sure. While I don't see or understand how one can be both at the same time to my knowledge. (If someone would like to explain that one to me, I'd like to know. It would be interesting).
It's entirely possible that it could be all of the above reasons you mentioned I suppose.
Again, good question.

Heart of Isis

Rina
November 26th, 2005, 06:36 PM
I know an entire famly of Christian Witches, and all of them sincere. I think the reason there has been this influx is that Christian Witches get abuse from all sides and they are finally starting to speak up and give each other the courage to stand for what they believe in.
I think the practice of ceremonial magic is compatible with a christian belief and both can be sincere.

LacyRoze
November 26th, 2005, 06:46 PM
I, personally, believe they are sincere. I've seen no evidence to make me believe otherwise. I've seen no member who claims to be Christian/anything trying to convert any other member nor I have I seen them try to divide this community in any way.I also haven't seen anyone claiming that their way is the only way or that they are right and everyone else is wrong. What I have seen is a sharing of beliefs and trading of information.

I myself am Christian, tho not in the mainstream sense. I don't claim to be a witch, I just tend to have some pagan leanings. I, for one, am here to convert no one. Your beliefs are your own. I came here to hopefully find like-minded individuals and learn and expand my beliefs. I'm sorry if anyone believes I have any other intentions as I don't. I am here for my own spiritual growth, nothing more.

Tigerlily
November 26th, 2005, 06:49 PM
I think it's sincere.

Everyone is allowed to follow their own path.

aluokaloo
November 26th, 2005, 06:51 PM
I believe them to be sincere, at first when i heard of it, i couldn't believe it, but words have a way of putting blocks in front of people. I realized that witchcraft is for everyone who dares to wander its path. It transcends religion/culture/ethnicity/country/time/genmder.There might be a few frauds there io'm sure but I am sure that there are some in every community.

Kaylara
November 26th, 2005, 06:57 PM
You can be a Christian Witch. (Although as far as I know that causes some dogmatic and scripture issues.) You can't be a Christian Wiccan. (Wiccan and Witch are not interchangable terms except in certain company.)

I think that people who call themselves christian wiccans are people who are not prepared to give up their christianity for whatever reason. I think they're Eclectic Christians, or New Agers (since, as far as I'm aware, the New age movement is mainly made up of Christians who are also into esoteric things.) But not Wiccans. Wicca is a religion, and Christianity is a religion and the twain are not compatible for several reasons. So whatever, if you want to call yourself a Christian witch, more power to you. But Christian Wicca doesn't work.

Ninjakitten
November 26th, 2005, 07:01 PM
Oh, okay! I'll answer!

I am a Christian in many of my core beliefs, but I don't take all of the Bible as literal truth, feel that many things were left out of the Bible by the church that hold truth, and that Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on the truth. I believe Jesus died for all of us so that we can have a just connection with the perfect Divine as imperfect beings, and it doesn't take saying some sort of incantation about taking Jesus into your life to have the connection his death created.

I also believe that a lot of magic was done both by the ancient Hebrews (just look at a lot of the ceremonial stuff in the OT) and by ancient Christians (the Bible mentions casting of lots to get a Divine answer to a question, and even Jesus spit into the dirt, smeared the mud into a blind man's eyes, and told the man to wash it off in a sacred river to see). I feel that though Jesus was given Divine Authority to be capable of accomplishing a task no mere human could alone, I don't feel he was literally God incarnate, but embodied the Divine while he was here so we could see what can happen when influenced by Godde (masculine and feminine combined). I feel he both did miracles (using Divine Power with his Divine Authority) and did magic (I mentioned an instance a moment ago). Since Christians are supposed to try to follow him as a culture would allow (these days, you can't really go around as a vagrant and be housed by others as you spread knowledge of the Divine), I feel that acknowledging the energies that were put into Creation by Godde is an appropriate thing for a Christian to do, and is a good way to touch on what the Divine has directly done in the past.

As for the questions in the poll, I wouldn't be suprised if there was a Christian witch here and there that was trying to convert others and using a face of being a witch to do that. I also wouldn't be suprised if some Christian witches were merely in a shift from being Christian to being Pagan. I for one have had too many Divine experiences pointing me towards Christianity to discount that that is where the Divine wants me to be, though I also see truth in other things the Divine allows me to be exposed to that the church condemns, and so I'd like to think that I'm the sincere type of Christian witch.

Christian Wiccan? That's not what I am, though since I see Christianity as something that can easily be interpreted as a pantheon (masculine and feminine Divine... seperate or not, and includes an Avatar and guardians?), I don't see why it's any different than using another pantheon in Wicca. I see a lot of similarities in the Wiccan Rede and other Wiccan principles that, so long as the Bible isn't taken like a fundamentalist would take it, and if you add the Apocrypha and the Gnostic writings, I see them as similar and see where someone could create something that has no conflict and is true to both. I won't defend that any further than that since, well, I honestly don't care because I'm not a Christian Wiccan.

Wow! That was so long, 3 people posted between the time I started writing and when I posted! Sorry guys! I get carried away sometimes

cheddarsox
November 26th, 2005, 08:42 PM
In my experience most Christian witches are sincere, and a small percentage of them are confused folk who want to have it both ways.

Some forms of Christianity exclude the possibility of being both Christian and a witch, but not all of them.

cheddar

Crimson Mage
November 26th, 2005, 09:11 PM
This is a LONG answer, but i guarantee if you take the time to read it, youll understand why.
Ok, I see we need to clarify some things here.
A bit of history for those who may not know these things.
The confusion about Witches/Wiccans stems from the overly broad use of a court case from the 1980's by none other than the famous (or infamous if youre from here in Massachusetts) Laurie Cabot.
The court case concerned a state prisoner in Virginia who sued in order that he be allowed his ritual tools for his practice of Wicca while incarcerated(minus the athame of course!). He sued under the premise of freedom of religion, and ended up winning the case. The judge proclaimed that Wicca met all the criteria as a religion and had to be recognized as such. Shortly thereafter Laurie Cabot and her group, Witches League for Public Awareness (WLPA) came out with a widely promoted statement that due to this case in VA, Witchcraft is a recognized religion. the truth of the matter is -- thats simply not true.
Wicca is the religion -- Witchcraft is NOT a religion, it is a practice. no more or no less a practice than the art of painting for example. do some Wiccans incorporate some religious rituals into their witchcraft?, most certainly they do. But then again so does the Chinese Herb Doctor, or the Native American Medicine Man, or the Voo Doo Witch Doctor out in the bayous, theyre all practicing Witchcraft.

My point is this --- there can be witches of ANY religious faith --- there is no prerequisite concerning religion at all. My shoppe is in one of the most devout Catholic areas in my state, and my BEST customer is the 54 yo Portuguese Catholic woman who comes by regularly for her benzoin powder, lavender, and cinnamon. Witches come in all shapes, sizes, sexes, and religious faiths --and if you spend your time dismissing those who are not Wiccan, youll most likely miss 75% of all the witches you ever cross paths with.

smckim
November 26th, 2005, 09:30 PM
I don't know..... But doesn't it say someplace in the Bible, Never suffer a Witch to live? So if they aren't confused, I certainly am. Can someone who is a Christian Witch please explain, I mean no disrespect, I really want to understand this concept.

Crimson Mage
November 26th, 2005, 09:50 PM
I feel that many of the references made in the bible
against "witches" have little or no relevance today. For one thing, in translating the text from Hebrew, there were encountered in the texts several words which appeared nowhere else in the text. During the times of James I, when the translations were done, the witchcraft trials were the news of the day, and thus the translators inserted the word "witch" when the were at loss for another.

A great many of the anti-witchcraft references come from Deuteronomy, the
same book of the Bible which commands the stoning of stubborn children (Deut.21:18-21), acceptance of polygamy (Deut. 21:15), keeping the week-long harvestfeast (Deut. 16:13). The book also reminds us that those castrated shall be damned to hell (Deut. 23:1).

Something about the Bible to remember (and i mean NO disrespect here) -- it is not the "words of God", it is a collection of a group's observances. What i mean is this -- if you as a person look at this page right now,and describe it, you might say "its rust and umber and cream colored, with three colors of text." I on the other hand might say "its a VBulletin version 3.5.0 php script with a size 2 font".
Now, we just looked at EXACTLY the same thing here-- but we used NONE of the same words to describe it. We're actually both right, although we said nothing in common. Its an example of what leads me to believe that although i am relatively sure the authors of that book are telling what they truly saw, in the end its their opinion, and if i saw exactly the same thing, who's to say I'd write it down the same way? Its subjective, and as such, must be taken with the proverbial "grain of salt".

Evendusk
November 26th, 2005, 10:04 PM
I think Christian witches are sincere and that it's not a recent 'movement'. In the Amish society there are powwow healers who use a combination of traditional German folk magic mixed with Christian theology to effect cures. There aren't many books on the subject since the Amish won't admit to the healers but it is something an interested Christian witch could look into.

BeigeAllen
November 26th, 2005, 10:19 PM
I could not vote because none of the answers applies.

A Christian is a person whose religion is focused and centered in Jesus Christ. (If you haven't read the spirituality and religion article yet, this would be a very good time to do it!) What this means is that the person's understanding of their spiritual connection with the Divine is explained best in terms of Jesus of Nazareth.

Christians once used divination, herbalism, meditation, sacrifice (both physical and spiritual) and many of the other practices modern Pagans recognize as Witchcraft. Gnosticism, Culdee, Santeria, and Qu'abalism are all paths that are classed as Pagan, predate Wicca, and include elements of both Christianity and Witchcraft.

Sorry to shatter the beliefs of some, but as Wicca has no deities in and of itself other than the vague ideas of goddess and god, if you use Jesus or Jehovah as your God signifier and Mary as your Mother Goddess, then yes, you can be a Christian Wiccan. Catholic Wiccans have greater leeway as they have the whole host of saints to draw on. You could even run with the male centered trinity for God (Father-Son-Holy Ghost) and the classic woman trinity for the Goddess (Maiden-Mother-Crone).

Most of the problems people mention in a path that incorporates both come from mistranslations and misunderstandings of what parts of the bible are actually the laws of God and what parts are quotes from men talking to men.

If Christian Wiccans can exist, then the idea of a Christian Witch is even easier to accept, unless your definition of witch is " a woman who has made a pact to serve the Devil and received in return evil magical powers". Christian pastors may take issue with the concepts of Christian Witches, but only if they like being hypocrites. Last time I checked, Pagans were supposed to try and be a little better than that.

Christo Pagan
November 26th, 2005, 10:20 PM
I don't speak for anyone else, but being a Christian Pagan, my beliefs center around what I believe to be a growing amount of evidence showing that Christianity was in fact birthed from the Pagan Mystery religions of old. I do not believe that the Bible is in any way the ineffible "Word of God", but that the stories in the Bible are all mythology and that within these myths we can discover a great deal about the nature of Deity.

I, myself, am not attempting to create some kind of hybrid of Evangelical Christianity and modern Wicca. Instead, I am a believer in Gnosticism, which, as I'm sure many of you know, is a form of Christian Mysticism and was itself enrooted in Paganism. In fact, I would dare say that Wicca itself owes a lot to ancient Gnosticism and may also be an indirect ancestor of it.

Heart of Isis
November 26th, 2005, 11:43 PM
Oh, okay! I'll answer!

I am a Christian in many of my core beliefs, but I don't take all of the Bible as literal truth, feel that many things were left out of the Bible by the church that hold truth, and that Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on the truth. I believe Jesus died for all of us so that we can have a just connection with the perfect Divine as imperfect beings, and it doesn't take saying some sort of incantation about taking Jesus into your life to have the connection his death created.

I also believe that a lot of magic was done both by the ancient Hebrews (just look at a lot of the ceremonial stuff in the OT) and by ancient Christians (the Bible mentions casting of lots to get a Divine answer to a question, and even Jesus spit into the dirt, smeared the mud into a blind man's eyes, and told the man to wash it off in a sacred river to see). I feel that though Jesus was given Divine Authority to be capable of accomplishing a task no mere human could alone, I don't feel he was literally God incarnate, but embodied the Divine while he was here so we could see what can happen when influenced by Godde (masculine and feminine combined). I feel he both did miracles (using Divine Power with his Divine Authority) and did magic (I mentioned an instance a moment ago). Since Christians are supposed to try to follow him as a culture would allow (these days, you can't really go around as a vagrant and be housed by others as you spread knowledge of the Divine), I feel that acknowledging the energies that were put into Creation by Godde is an appropriate thing for a Christian to do, and is a good way to touch on what the Divine has directly done in the past.

As for the questions in the poll, I wouldn't be suprised if there was a Christian witch here and there that was trying to convert others and using a face of being a witch to do that. I also wouldn't be suprised if some Christian witches were merely in a shift from being Christian to being Pagan. I for one have had too many Divine experiences pointing me towards Christianity to discount that that is where the Divine wants me to be, though I also see truth in other things the Divine allows me to be exposed to that the church condemns, and so I'd like to think that I'm the sincere type of Christian witch.

Christian Wiccan? That's not what I am, though since I see Christianity as something that can easily be interpreted as a pantheon (masculine and feminine Divine... seperate or not, and includes an Avatar and guardians?), I don't see why it's any different than using another pantheon in Wicca. I see a lot of similarities in the Wiccan Rede and other Wiccan principles that, so long as the Bible isn't taken like a fundamentalist would take it, and if you add the Apocrypha and the Gnostic writings, I see them as similar and see where someone could create something that has no conflict and is true to both. I won't defend that any further than that since, well, I honestly don't care because I'm not a Christian Wiccan.

Wow! That was so long, 3 people posted between the time I started writing and when I posted! Sorry guys! I get carried away sometimes
Hey, that's interesting Ninjakitten. It's a lot to chew on I'll grant you that. I need to re-read it a couple more times. I'm glad I popped over to this thread to read what you posted. I'm fascinated by it. (Granted there is no chance of my changing dieties or agreeing with every little thing). However, I may ask you some questions for clarity later (like in about a month or so). I'm interested in what makes a Christain Witch so I can understand better.

By the by, I have seen a side by side comparison between the "Wiccan Rede" and the "Ten Commandments" and they are not only fairly compatible, but nearly similar in spots. Not sure which came first the chicken or the egg on that. It gets a little messy, what with Wicca being younger than Christianity, but Paganism being much older and then perhaps the "Rede" being adapted from ancient times to the modern wording.....see what I mean?

Thank you,

Heart of Isis

AlAskendir
November 27th, 2005, 12:12 AM
Great question! I'm not sure. While I don't see or understand how one can be both at the same time to my knowledge. (If someone would like to explain that one to me, I'd like to know. It would be interesting).
It's entirely possible that it could be all of the above reasons you mentioned I suppose.
Again, good question.

Heart of Isis

It was the first poll here I have ever seen that included 'I don't know what I think.', which I think is magnificent.

As to how Christians can use magic....the statements in the bible say 'do not put your faith in pharmekia', which means not only 'don't compound herbs to use in magickal rites-', but 'don't use herbs medicinally-'...'-WITH MORE FAITH THAN YOU HAVE IN GOD'.

And that applies to both parts.

Most Christians, without any scriptural guidance that I have been able to find, have decided that it means 'don't get involved in magic at all' and that it means nothing whatsoever about herbs or drugs.

And then, because you can't really have any religious service in any known religion in the world (in my opinion) without using symbols, focusing intently on something, arousing passions, and releasing them, they go ahead and do magick in church anyway!!!

So, as far as I am concerned, all devout Christians are Christian Witches, they just either don't know it, or don't go around letting others know it.

AlAskendir
November 27th, 2005, 12:19 AM
I don't know..... But doesn't it say someplace in the Bible, Never suffer a Witch to live? So if they aren't confused, I certainly am. Can someone who is a Christian Witch please explain, I mean no disrespect, I really want to understand this concept.

The original meant: "Don't let poisoners live in the village." Kind of the original attempt at environment regulation. The 'live in the village' got collapsed into one word in a reverse of the way one word (Berashith) begins the Torah and means 'At the creation', although it is usually translated as 'In the beginning'. The 'poisoner' got translated to 'herbalist' and then to 'witch' as the data went thru several languages and cultures.

PoisonIvy
November 27th, 2005, 08:44 AM
Mmmm. I wasn't aware that there was a "movement".

I don't know any Christians that would actually "fake" being a witch to try and convert people! To "fake" being what they think of as evil would be a sin in and of itself! Most Christians won't even let their kids go trick or treating because it's the "Devils holiday".(Which makes me upset!)


I don't care much for "labels",but I do believe that Jesus Christ walked this Earth and I also believed that he "healed" people (the laying on of hands)and rose from the grave (reincarnation maybe?). The christians also preformed large elaborate rituals. Whether or not anyone else believes that is niether here nor there as far as I'm concerned.

I also believe that any gifts,magickal or otherwise,were given to me from him to do good with. I believe that God created this Earth and I believe that we should do all we can to keep her healthy and safe.

I was brought up christian,so yes I do have that background,but I also have a strong background in the practice of witchcraft.

I try to be as diverse as humanly possible. I don't think that my way is the only way. Actually I like to hear other peoples beliefs. I am a student of information. I love hearing different beliefs and stories from different cultures!
I would never try to "convert" anyone because I wouldn't want anyone trying to "convert" me! I find it rude!

Nemesis Descending
November 27th, 2005, 03:03 PM
I think the practice of ceremonial magic is compatible with a christian belief and both can be sincere.

What do you make of this passage in the New Testament, which states that the fate of sorcerers is to be cast "into the lake that burns with fire and sulfur,which is the second death" (Rev21:8). Sounds like a taboo against magic users.


I've seen no evidence to make me believe otherwise. I've seen no member who claims to be Christian/anything trying to convert any other member nor I have I seen them try to divide this community in any way.

I think there is a knee jerk reaction for many of us here because the history of Christianity is filled with subterfuge and the intimidation of torture, violence and death. We know, for example, that the early Church Councils staged the building of churches on Pagan sites of worship to encourage the populace to still frequent the setting (and thus encounter the churches). We know that the Church vilified the Pagan deities in order to dissuade people from worshipping them. Add to this the Holy Wars of the Crusades, and the torture of individuals by the Inquisition, and the precedent for shady activities is quite an impressive and long-standing tradition.


I think that people who call themselves christian wiccans are people who are not prepared to give up their christianity for whatever reason.

My own feelings are that they hoping to avoid "damnation" by holding to their belief in Jesus while practicing witchcraft or whatever. It's kind of a "get out of hell free card" approach. God only knows if it will work. ;)

Personally I've always felt that being a Christian Witch or Christian Wiccan makes about as much sense as being a vegetarian meat-eater. My opinion is that they should call themselves Gnostic Christians or something like that, and not arrogate the labels of Witch, Wiccan or Pagan.

mol
November 27th, 2005, 03:22 PM
I think it's sincere.

Everyone is allowed to follow their own path.
Exactly. If you see someone proselytizing then please report the post.

Ninjakitten
November 27th, 2005, 07:03 PM
Personally I've always felt that being a Christian Witch or Christian Wiccan makes about as much sense as being a vegetarian meat-eater. My opinion is that they should call themselves Gnostic Christians or something like that, and not arrogate the labels of Witch, Wiccan or Pagan.


You do realize that a lot of the witches that were burned and killed in the Inquisitions and Witch Trials were Christians that practiced things like herbalism, midwifery, divination, and (especially) kitchen witchery, right (and many other things associated with witchcraft? Also, it was Christians who came up with the overly generalized term of "witch" for a person who practiced a lot of things we today call aspects of witchcraft. This was before Wiccans ever even existed (ie, before Gardner created Wicca).

Ninjakitten
November 27th, 2005, 07:04 PM
Exactly. If you see someone proselytizing then please report the post.

So we aren't allowed to convince people that you are a site god? :)

Nemesis Descending
November 27th, 2005, 10:08 PM
You do realize that a lot of the witches that were burned and killed in the Inquisitions and Witch Trials were Christians that practiced things like herbalism, midwifery, divination, and (especially) kitchen witchery, right (and many other things associated with witchcraft?

No, because the majority of people executed as witches were not involved in anything that the rest of the population was not involved in. The type of person you mention was a minority by comparison.


Also, it was Christians who came up with the overly generalized term of "witch" for a person who practiced a lot of things we today call aspects of witchcraft. This was before Wiccans ever even existed (ie, before Gardner created Wicca).

Well, as has been pointed out by others including historian Jeffrey Russell, the earliest mention of "wicca" appears in a 9th century manuscript, and was applied to people who used magic. So clearly there was a "wicca" of some type. And as to Gardner creating Wicca, there is nothing conclusive to prove that he did anything other than add to or embellish whatever pre-existed him.

mol
November 27th, 2005, 10:15 PM
So we aren't allowed to convince people that you are a site god? :)
No, that's ok. :)

sari0009
November 27th, 2005, 10:17 PM
Do you think the Christian Witch activity is really comprised of Christians who want to be Witches/Wiccans, or do you think that this is about Christians posing in order to bring people to Jesus? Or is this about subversion in an attempt to bring divisiveness into our Community?

If you have a range of people involved in it, I would expect a range of reasons and motives -- it's just hard to know which ones to safely rule out or how prevalent they might be (how much they do or do not matter in the big picture).

I have seen sites such as http://www.patregan.freeuk.com/exwitch.htm but ... well, have to take things on a case by case basis usually and ... it's hard to really know and I take many things with a grain of salt ... not necessarily ruling possibilities in or out until proven otherwise.

Mostly, if I am confident in my path and no one is proselytizing, I do not worry or think about it.

Darkwater Stone
November 27th, 2005, 10:57 PM
What do you make of this passage in the New Testament, which states that the fate of sorcerers is to be cast "into the lake that burns with fire and sulfur,which is the second death" (Rev21:8). Sounds like a taboo against magic users.



I think there is a knee jerk reaction for many of us here because the history of Christianity is filled with subterfuge and the intimidation of torture, violence and death. We know, for example, that the early Church Councils staged the building of churches on Pagan sites of worship to encourage the populace to still frequent the setting (and thus encounter the churches). We know that the Church vilified the Pagan deities in order to dissuade people from worshipping them. Add to this the Holy Wars of the Crusades, and the torture of individuals by the Inquisition, and the precedent for shady activities is quite an impressive and long-standing tradition.



My own feelings are that they hoping to avoid "damnation" by holding to their belief in Jesus while practicing witchcraft or whatever. It's kind of a "get out of hell free card" approach. God only knows if it will work. ;)

Personally I've always felt that being a Christian Witch or Christian Wiccan makes about as much sense as being a vegetarian meat-eater. My opinion is that they should call themselves Gnostic Christians or something like that, and not arrogate the labels of Witch, Wiccan or Pagan.

I agree with this post for the most part.
I do not hold anything against christian-witches, I just don't agree that the two can coincide without breaking the religions rules.
But that is ok, I am not preaching or nothing, whatever your cup of tea is, right? I am sure that some people would not agree with some of my beliefs, and that is ok. This post was not meant to offend or anything, just giving my opinion is all.
Blessed be.:achug:

Ninjakitten
November 28th, 2005, 02:29 AM
No, because the majority of people executed as witches were not involved in anything that the rest of the population was not involved in. The type of person you mention was a minority by comparison.



Well, as has been pointed out by others including historian Jeffrey Russell, the earliest mention of "wicca" appears in a 9th century manuscript, and was applied to people who used magic. So clearly there was a "wicca" of some type. And as to Gardner creating Wicca, there is nothing conclusive to prove that he did anything other than add to or embellish whatever pre-existed him.


According to a much more neutral source (the Religious Tolerance Website), your first paragraph is likely more wrong than right (though I'm apparently not 100% right either in what little I said).

The second paragraph is speculation, and one historian doesn't make something a fact. Marija Gimbutas wrote on some things I'd like to really believe, but I can't without some more educated proof (though I really REALLY want to believe a lot of her insights on history, as a scientist that takes her research seriously, I can't and still be respected as a scholar). Gardner created Wicca. How much was based on history is still under speculation, but it is still based on history, not an actual recreation of what was historically done.

Here are the Religious Tolerance articles I found related to it in case you are interested in reading some more. Note the parts where most "witches" were considered "religious heretics" and not really considered pagan (some were, but most weren't, and the "burning times" was much more a political ploy that a representation of what Christ would have ever promoted). The one's that were truly pagan that were burned were likely the minority. After all, they kind of had more practice hiding their beliefs by the time the Inquisitions started than those who were Christian and practiced some of the old ways as Christians.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn1.htm

Ninjakitten
November 28th, 2005, 02:35 AM
I agree with this post for the most part.
I do not hold anything against christian-witches, I just don't agree that the two can coincide without breaking the religions rules.
But that is ok, I am not preaching or nothing, whatever your cup of tea is, right? I am sure that some people would not agree with some of my beliefs, and that is ok. This post was not meant to offend or anything, just giving my opinion is all.
Blessed be.:achug:


Don't worry. Believe it or not, so long as the belief isn't a type of attack, many of us won't take offense... though I can assure you I'm not trying to keep my foot in the Christian court "just in case". I believe the Christ died for everyone willing to take him into their hearts (not necessarily conciously, which means you don't have to say some mumbo jumbo and follow his fan club to reap the benefits of what he did, but just basically try to be the best person you can be). Because of this belief, I have no need to stay Christian to be "saved". I have much more personal reasons which include some very spiritual experiences I've had that pointed me towards becoming a Christian, and, no, they weren't some sort of churchy evangelical brain-washing experiences, but private approaches by the Divine guiding me when I was still hateful of Christians and Christianity. Above all else, including being a Christian, I am a seeker of truth. That's why I can't take the Bible literally and take some church's word for who the Christ was.

Nemesis Descending
November 28th, 2005, 02:58 AM
According to a much more neutral source (the Religious Tolerance Website), your first paragraph is likely more wrong than right

Neutral, you're joking right!? LOL


The second paragraph is speculation, and one historian doesn't make something a fact.

No, but the fact makes it a fact.


Gardner created Wicca. How much was based on history is still under speculation, but it is still based on history, not an actual recreation of what was historically done.

There are lots of theories and opinions, thanks for sharing yours.

Ninjakitten
November 28th, 2005, 03:11 AM
Religious Tolerance isn't neutraler (which is now a word)? :sadeyes: Yunh hunh! Seriously though, thanks for not ripping me a new one and taking that the wrong way... oh, and for starting this thread and poll. I know there's some that will lump "the likes of me" all in the same category, and others that won't. Happens to everyone. All I can do is try to seek truth and try not to let my own personal opinions get in the way of me seeing it when it comes by. I'll be looking up that historian you mentioned. History is a passion of mine (I'm a medieval and renaissance recreator).

LadyCelt
November 28th, 2005, 03:25 AM
I believe the Lord made the other deities.

I am not doign it to bring peopel to Jesus either. I am not fully pagan/wicca either, but exploring too.

Mouse
November 28th, 2005, 04:46 AM
Don't get me started again. Witchcraft IS a religion, Crimson Mage, and some of us tend to get a tad insulted when people belittle our beliefs. I for one would not base my life around painting the way I do with my religion. I think I'll just post a link in my sig to save me the trouble of argueing with people. :rant:

There where Wiccans before Gardener, they were not exactly the same as modern Wiccans but they did exist.

This is beside the point though. I can see how Christian Wicca would work, it makes a lot of scence (after I had it explained to me), and i can see how Christians could easily practice cerimonial magic, I find it much harder to see how someone could be a Christian Witch, actually I can't work out how the two as religions could mesh at all.. but I'm probably too close to the forest to see the trees.

I can see how it could be used as a tool like that, but I don't think that's really the style that they would use. For example a lot of publishers have been bought out by christians which slows the amount/availability of Wiccan books. this is a lot more direct and effective on a larger scale. I dont think individual Christian Wiccans or Christian Witches would take this sort of action, and in groups they have much more effective ways to create the change they desire.

A lot of Christian Wiccans and Christian Witches seem confused to me, but I've met a couple of them that are sincere, following a path that makes logical and spiritual scence, and it's refreshing. More power to them, i say.

Vinny Mirabella
November 28th, 2005, 03:11 PM
I have seen sites such as http://www.patregan.freeuk.com/exwitch.htm.

Thanks for the link. I'm in agreement with the general theme.

The statement - "Into this maelstrom of spiritual confusion based on ridiculous New Age naivety the Church is quick to offer it's smiling, extended hand countenance to any plastic (i.e. those numbskulls shouting - 'we want to be accepted') Pagan that will listen" - does seem to fit. We're an accepting community that often fails to realize that not everything is acceptable.

Another interesting statement - "Sadly, untutored yet possibly well-meaning occultists are paving the way for the Church to push its one-sided and exclusive philosophy in by the back door" - again seems to fit. I think the backdoor is open, and is being taken advantage of. Now don't get me wrong, I do believe there are Christians who have an interest in Paganism without having a conversion agenda. But I feel this weakens our guard against infiltration by those with a hidden agenda.

I've seen it posted on MW before - "Be open-minded, but not so open that your brains fall out" - and I think this is wise.

Athene
November 29th, 2005, 09:47 AM
Do you think the Christian Witch activity is really comprised of Christians who want to be Witches/Wiccans, or do you think that this is about Christians posing in order to bring people to Jesus? Or is this about subversion in an attempt to bring divisiveness into our Community?


I feel this weakens our guard against infiltration by those with a hidden agenda.



:rotfl:
:rotfl:

OMG! I rarely literally laugh out loud, but this did it for me! (and just as you meant no offense, neither do I).

I just had this image of Christians in black hoods gathering in secret meetings planning the overthrow of the pagan community. And some brainbox decided that posing as Christian witches would be a brilliant idea. (or 'cunning plan' to Black Adder fans).

On a serious note.... go into the Paths > Christian witchcraft section as 'how can this work?' has been dealt with extensively there.

A movement, infiltration? :lol: ah, I needed a laugh after the serious articles I've been writing today. So thanks.

I will sum this up quickly:
- Christianity and witchcraft, or magical pracices, have been around since not long after the time of Jesus.
- the mix exists today in countries where the people have never heard of the term 'neo-pagan' or 'Wicca'.

Simply, this isn't anything new.

take care :)

Athene
November 29th, 2005, 09:58 AM
apologies, dud post

equinox2
November 29th, 2005, 03:13 PM
OK, on one hand, the site listed ( http://www.patregan.freeuk.com/exwitch.htm.) makes some very important points. In fact, I know from experience posting on exwitch that it is just another tool to get more people to be Christian. Of the fundamentalist Christians who claim to have been witches and are now "saved", I'm sure many were, but I also wonder how many are just making that up, or were only very superficially pagan. Of all the fundamentalists, it seems that quite a few will use any line to accomplish their main goal - that of making more Christians. The site is right that Pagans can often be accepting and welcoming to an extreme, opening themselves and others up to harm. Thanks, Vinny, for pointing that out.

At the same time, I'm sure that a lot of people are honestly finding a merger of Christianity and witchcraft works for them spiritually. Ninjakitten and others here exemplefy that. I think they and many others are honest and kind. I'll ignore for now the argument that the Bible and Paganism are incompatible (they are, but it doesn't really matter for this discussion).

So! Which witch is which?? How do we decide when we come across a claimed "Christian Witch", which kind they are? Are they a fundamentalist trying any means needed to convert you, or are they honestly combining the paths, like the Sikh religion combines the incompatible muslim and hindu religions?

I've found a quick, effective and clear way is to ask them how they approach sacred scripture. A fundamentalist will affirm the Bible, and the Bible is clear that other religions are not to be tolerated. A true combiner will often affirm other Christian Scripture as well, such as Gnostic Gospels or the Letter to Flora. An open-minded, religiously accepting Christian Witch will often agree to disregard some books of the Bible, like Paul's diatribes against women, or the burning of the Pagan books in Acts, or the time that God asks for and gets the infants killed and their severed heads delivered to God in baskets.

It's a simple way to check - are they willing to (or have they already) gone past the primitive Bible? So yes, there are deceptive "Christian Witches" who only aim to convert others, and at the same time there are lots of honest Christian Witches with a living, healthy spirituality. And there is an easy way to tell them apart - ask them about their scripture.

Does that make sense to you? What do you think?

May you never thirst-

Nemesis Descending
December 3rd, 2005, 04:02 PM
It's a simple way to check - are they willing to (or have they already) gone past the primitive Bible? So yes, there are deceptive "Christian Witches" who only aim to convert others, and at the same time there are lots of honest Christian Witches with a living, healthy spirituality. And there is an easy way to tell them apart - ask them about their scripture.

Does that make sense to you? What do you think?


This raises something I've often thought about - is scripture meant to be optional suggestions as opposed to firm teachings? If we buy the idea that Jesus suffered and died to save us, does it seem likely that he did so just to leave us with some suggestions in the form of the New Testament?

If scripture of the Old Testament/New Testament is subject to the "pick and choose a verse" approach of authenticity, there is a real problem. Potentially every teaching in scripture will be rejected when enough people dismiss individual teachings. What I mean is, if say there are 10,000 teachings in the Bible, and 200,000 people differ on what is true, then none of the individual teachings really hold water in any practical way within the system they were intended to comprise. It's kind of like seeing the Ten Commandments as the Ten Suggestions.

Darakash
December 3rd, 2005, 04:11 PM
What I mean is, if say there are 10,000 teachings in the Bible, and 200,000 people differ on what is true, then none of the individual teachings really hold water in any practical way within the system they were intended to comprise. It's kind of like seeing the Ten Commandments as the Ten Suggestions.

Hmm, well, I see your point; however, I think there are parts of the bible that are meant to be "laws" and some that are just meant to teach and suggest. For instance the Ten Commandments are clearly meant to be LAWS; hence as you point out so eloquently they would not be called commandments. And, in fact, if you are a Christian who believes that these are the ONLY laws set forth in the Bible, you would be perfectly within your rights/with in the boundaries of these laws to practice magic or witchcraft, as long as you "put no other god before Jehova..."

Part of the confusion, I think with the whole laws vs. suggestions thing is that some things in the Old Testament where later deemed unneccesary/no longer law by the sacrifice and teachings of Jesus. So, the prohibitions of the "often Wrathful" Jehova of the Old Testament are, by many, considered null and void due to Jesus' birth death and resurrection.

Fire's Shadow
December 3rd, 2005, 05:14 PM
This raises something I've often thought about - is scripture meant to be optional suggestions as opposed to firm teachings? If we buy the idea that Jesus suffered and died to save us, does it seem likely that he did so just to leave us with some suggestions in the form of the New Testament?

If scripture of the Old Testament/New Testament is subject to the "pick and choose a verse" approach of authenticity, there is a real problem. Potentially every teaching in scripture will be rejected when enough people dismiss individual teachings. What I mean is, if say there are 10,000 teachings in the Bible, and 200,000 people differ on what is true, then none of the individual teachings really hold water in any practical way within the system they were intended to comprise. It's kind of like seeing the Ten Commandments as the Ten Suggestions.

This is something I pondered a long time before going pagan. Being a catholic all my life I really see them take hard line approaches to scripture and the rules that are interpreted from them. However, they can be interpreted many ways depending on the reader, which sets the potentially dangerous "pick and choose a verse" approach.

Some people might skip the hundreds of teachings against hypocrisy (which unfortunately, many people do) and go straight for the 5 verses that have been misinterpreted to condemn homosexuality.

Despite this, I'm still not sure if the bible is meant as a suggestions book, or a rule book. I think some scripture has more validation than others, and there has been so many misinterpretations, f***ed up translations, and many different fundamentals claiming to know the "True way of Jesus" that I would have to lean to the towards the idea that it actually is a suggestion book... The thing that pisses me off is that in the scripture, jesus (or yeshua) really sounded like a stand up guy... but a lot of his followers skewed his ultimate message of "Love" for a bunch of condemning passages.

star_belfire
December 3rd, 2005, 05:35 PM
I am completely confused by the idea. It doesn't make sence to me because the rules and beliefes just don't seem bto mix well if at all.

I was raised Catholic so I have a pretty good grasp on both religions but I just don't see how they mix.

In the bible witches are condemd and there is a passage in Exodis (sp?) that states "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and that just confuses me that someone could follow both religions

Darakash
December 3rd, 2005, 05:43 PM
In the bible witches are condemd and there is a passage in Exodis (sp?) that states "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and that just confuses me that someone could follow both religions

Now see this is a common and frequent response to the melding, and it is understandable; however, if we are speaking of Christians practicing witchcraft/magic (pick a label); I assume many of them are adhereing more to the tenants and teachings of the New Testament and not so much the Old.

Not that they would be forced to ignore the old testament completely (I don't think most Christians do that). But, as I recently stated in another post, most of the Old testament admonitions are no longer considered Christian "Law" for lack of a better word. Certainly the 10 Commandments are still considered law, but other things like burning a bull for sacrifice, and other things such as the quote you mention are considered merely suggestions or things that through the Sacrifice of Christs blood and due to his teachings on forgiveness, etc. are no longer required to be a Christian.

Now, if we are talking about Abrahamic faiths that follow The Old testament and not the New, then, I have no idea how they manage to mix the two...but that is a whole nother thread!

Ninjakitten
December 4th, 2005, 12:29 AM
I was going to comment, but Darakash kind of beat me to the best points of what I was going to say. Okay, just reread what she said, and you'll know what I have to say on the subject as a Christian witch, and as someone who has many gay and lesbian friends that also consider themselves Christian.

Ninjakitten
December 4th, 2005, 12:34 AM
I was going to comment, but Darakash kind of beat me to the best points of what I was going to say. Okay, just reread what she said, and you'll know what I have to say on the subject as a Christian witch, and as someone who has many gay and lesbian friends that also consider themselves Christian.

Oh, and don't forget that a lot of things were said to have come from Jesus after Jesus wasn't even around, in the form of people like Paul, and that even the Apostles are recorded in Acts as having strong disagreements of what was "right" in the view of their newly found faith system "within Judaism" (they still considered themselves Jewish, even after Paul coined the term "Christian"). There was bound to be disagreements in later generations if the first generation couldn't even "get it right", and there were many things added in to the Bible to fit political agendas, like the possibility the Timothy books were forgaries, and the additions the King James Version holds, in part including turning very specific "magical abominations" as being called a more general term of "witch" instead of the original meanings, like "poisoner".

Oops, I meant to edit, not respond to myself. I guess that's the other part of my Gemini nature talking to itself :D

jcldragon
December 9th, 2005, 10:48 AM
There is a long tradition of Magickal things within Christianity, that has been stepped upon by the official churches to a very significant degree. Yet Christian Mysticism keeps coming back in one form or another. The reason for this, is that the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven will not be denied. These Gifts of the Holy Spirit form what is known as magick or occult practices, everywhere else. Christian Witches will speak about the attainment of Christ Consciousness. Do you seriously think that that is any different from what the Buddhists call Nirvana, the Hindus call Samadhi, or other Traditions refer to as Illumination, or Realization? It is All One.

Perhaps the best thing you can do with Christian Witches, is to compare notes :)

The Rosicrucian DOMA Plates (http://www.jamesclairlewis.com/pages/metaphysics/doma.html)

wolf
December 9th, 2005, 11:32 AM
I don't know that "movement" is the right word ...

I think the people involved are undoubtedly sincere, but I think they may also be confused.

I have a great deal of respect for Christians. I have read The Bible, more than one translation, but really can't find a work-around to allow for both Christianity and Witchcraft, or Christian Witchcraft. There is a type of charismatic Christianity that does include more experiential contact with diety, but it doesn't take the same forms, as far as I understand the idea, as Shamanic spirit work or Drawing Down the Moon, for example.

I look forward to hearing more from folks on this topic. Understanding the path can help improve cooperation.

Astara Seague
December 9th, 2005, 12:01 PM
I said I am not sure, because I really am not sure,
But I do believe eevryone should follow their own path where ever it lead though :strike:

Marcasite
December 12th, 2005, 08:21 PM
in my opinion, christian witchcraft is just as valid as wiccan witchcraft or any other

DoktorSick
December 24th, 2005, 04:18 AM
My take on the hold situation is that once you read about the history of christian and how it began and the many pagan influence that have shape it and the pagan holidays that are potraited as christian holidays.I think that a christian witch is logically evolution of the religion.
If you don't take the bible literally.I think it open the door for people be more open minded.

ObsessedFae86
December 24th, 2005, 04:33 AM
That's the path I started out on..Its like you can't let go of Jesus..But you want something new..Its just confused..IMO.

But if thats how they wish to believe..fine with me. :) NO offense to anyone!

lamoka
December 24th, 2005, 02:31 PM
I wish I could find the place that I found this before but I can't so I'll quote it to the best of my ability.. "witchcraft is the practice of using herbs, gems, spells, incantations, candles,and non-physical means to effect a physical outcome" or something in that vacinity.. in other words, naturopaths, homeopaths, holisitc healers,yoga, meditations AND the christian ways of lighting candles, prayer circles, etc. (and this is coming from a catholic raised perspective) can all be considered a type of witchcraft under this definition.. as to my belief that this is a movement.. ABSOLUTELY.. although I don't think it is a formal one or one with premeditated planning.. I just think the Divine is starting to get peoples attention that it ALL goes together.. every religion or belief system has a piece of the puzzle and we need to start putting it together.. as hard as it is to throw off the shackles of traditional upbringings, I honestly believe that in order to grow, to BECOME, we need not only acceptance of other paths, but an open mind as to how our paths could meet and benefit each other.. the only thing I hold true is that the Divine is not one of anger, judgement, fear, doubt or anything negative.. and I can't tell you how good it feels to me to even THINK that there may not actually be a devil or satan or hell.. I don't feel punished all the time.. or the threat of it..
and I still am a good person who does good things out of LOVE for the Divine as opposed to doing it out of fear..
blessed be

Vincent Verthaine
December 25th, 2005, 05:16 AM
Exactly what is a christian witch?

From what I can tell,christianity itself hasn't looked too kindly on the practice of magick,witches and worshipping other gods.

I'm sorry,but I have to ask.

If their more fundamentalist brethren(and there are a lot of them) should ever get enough power in this country(anything can happen) to start dictating what we should believe in under penalty of punishment,what side of the fence are they gonna jump to when the sh#t hits the fan.

Will they share that prison cell with me when I refuse to convert?
Or will they rat me out in the first place.
Are they going to be on the burning stake next to mine?
Or are they going to be in the crowd throwing gasoline on to mine.

There were jews in germany that converted to christianity to save their own asses.
There were also jews who sold out other jews to save their own necks.
It was black Moslems that killed Malcom X.
And it was Black undercover cops that infiltrated the Black Panthers

The fundies are pissed about losing the whole ID debate(I also like to hear opinions from the christian pagans on that one).
Fundementalists tend to do really nasty things to people.when they are pissed off.
And history has shown,time and time again,that when the fundies start acting up,the rest of them generally allow them to do whatever they want.
Sure,a few would say something about it.
Some might even do something about it.

But my ancestors wouldn't have had to endure 500 years of slavery and degradation at the hands of christians if the majority of christians didn't want it to happen.And they let it happen.

Who's to say it can't happen again?

When it all comes down to it,what side are you going to join?
Many discordians are willing to fight and possibly die as free men and women saying "hail eris" rather than convert and live as slaves praising jesus

My grandpappy used to say
"Beware of people who hegde their bets.
If a person want his cake and eat it to,he's gonna want yours when he's hungry again".

Philosophia
December 25th, 2005, 08:33 AM
My own feelings are that they hoping to avoid "damnation" by holding to their belief in Jesus while practicing witchcraft or whatever. It's kind of a "get out of hell free card" approach. God only knows if it will work.

But what if the individual has never been Christian, practises witchcraft yet feels like something is missing, so they try Christian witchcraft and it feels right? How is that a "get out of hell free card" approach?

Vincent Verthaine
December 30th, 2005, 08:18 PM
But what if the individual has never been Christian, practises witchcraft yet feels like something is missing, so they try Christian witchcraft and it feels right? How is that a "get out of hell free card" approach?
Then the path they were on may not have been the right path for them.

What I want to know is,what do the christian fundies feel about christian witches.
What about the Catholic Church?


I mean,its pretty well established how the mainstream christian hierarchy(priests,bishops,non'discordian Popes) feels about it.

Unfortunately,the term christian has more baggage on it then does the term pagan.

It's actually quite interesting to see christians daring to break from the mainstream and forge your own path.Thats what we discordians have been preaching for 50 yrs.
Kudoes for that.

Malcolm
January 4th, 2006, 05:08 PM
I'm sorry but I don't buy Christian witchcraft. I went to a Lutheran school for a long time and I just can't see how they could reconcile christian dogma with witchcraft, I mean "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is pretty self explanatory.

In the Chatacism(sp?) after that commandment it says "what does this mean..." and gives exactly what christians interpuret that commandment to mean. It does this for all the commandments


http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=711&contentID=4333&shortcutID=2076#ten


You shall have no other gods.
What does this mean?
We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.

That is however from the Luthers Small Chatacysm. Other flavors of christianity might see it differently.

MalPixie
January 9th, 2006, 01:56 AM
ok here is a question: How many people can say that they follow all aspects with out question of a certian faith? It seems that people keep changing names of things to conform to what they do believe. So I guess I find it had for people to say " I am this or I am that, but I believe this" I think we are just all individuals and we are going to believe whatever we want and won't ever truley believe what the next person does cause we are all too different!
So I say yeah you can believe in whatever you want and you can even call it what ever you want no matter what others think!!

Shanti
January 9th, 2006, 02:02 AM
you can follow any belief systems anyway you want!
spirit didnt write the rules...people keep doing that!

HeartSong
January 10th, 2006, 04:34 PM
I subscribe to the belief that all religions are just different ways of loving God (and Goddesses). I would never presume to try to convince someone else that what works for me spiritually would necesarily work for them.

I am ecumenical in my Christian faith- meaning I don't believe any one faith is the "true" faith. And in my view, Christianity is just one more way of loving God/dess. I realize this makes me a bit of a heretic in Christian circles, but in the end, the only opinion that matters is God's.

But that is just me. I can't speak for the rest of the "movement" since I don't claim to be a part of it. ;)

That's pretty much where I stand. :smile:

debnmike
November 29th, 2006, 03:08 PM
Movement? Well, I suppose there will always be somebody, somewhere who feels the need to convert using subversive methods, but from what I've seen on MW it's not too prevalent here.

Christian Witches isn't as ironic a term as it's made out to be. Speaking from a former Catholic background, during the mass a lot of the same "ingredients" in the Craft were used. Incense, chalices, that kind of thing. The only difference being (and this is Cliff's notes version here) is that Christian Witches don't need a priest to do it for them. The Christian Witches simply don't feel the need for a conduit for them to talk to God. Oddly, the basic idealogy with Catholism (I can only speak for that, as I'm not all that fluent with other forms of Christianity) is having a "personal relationship" with God, yet you are told that you are a lowly sinner so you cannot hold your own ceremonies or even confess your sins directly to Him. That's where the priest comes in.

As I said, I don't see anything contradictory in Christian Witches. From my standpoint it seems very inline with what Christianity does anyway. They've simply cut out the middle man.

Now if we were talking about Christian Satanists................:spaceman:

omar
January 3rd, 2007, 06:33 PM
IN 400AD. the Roman Cathlic church met in Nice, France. They rewrote the Bible to follow there own beleifs & changed the Christian Holy days to coincide with Pagan Holy Days. Was this subversion? Chistian Witches? Realy?

Carla O'Harris
January 5th, 2007, 05:37 AM
I support Christian Wiccans.

VioletJadeWolf
February 14th, 2007, 03:26 PM
I think that this faith is sincere and entirely legitimate, as I am a follower.

Lolair
February 14th, 2007, 06:36 PM
My opinion is that you can be a witch and Christian (catholic, protestant, whatever your flavour is), but you cannot be a Christian-Wiccan as both are incompatible religious systems.

A lot of the anti-witchcraft verses in the Bible were "translated" in 1611 by King James (of the King James version Bible) who fancied himself a witch-hunter. If you look up the original Hebrew or Greek translations the meanings can get quite different. Magic was once upon a time practiced by Christians, there is a lot of folk-magic and old lore in this religion. There are also a lot of witchcraft traditions that use Catholism. So I don't see why a Christian couldn't practice witchcraft or magic.