Drugs and Magick

[AlleyCat]

Just wondering what effect u believe prescribed &illegal drugs have on magickal workings and why? I know some people who are cronic caffiene drink drinkers who it doesnt appear to effect their abilitity and there is wine in some rituals etc so just wondering ppls views on this...

Thankies muchly,

Alley Cat

[Fire's Shadow]

I'm new at this, so correct me if I'm wrong. I've only read a few books, but from what I can tell, drugs were one of the methods to get into an altered state of conciousness to commune with forces of the universe in this plane (as well as other planes) of existence. There are many ways to do that including self-inflicted pain, concentration, and so on, however, drugs are no longer consider an ethical way of doing that. Except I'm sure that there are shamans in 3rd world countries still using hallucinogens to achieve this effect. Meditation is effective for me.

[Dawa Lhamo]

A difficult and oft-debated question... In my mind, there can be no question... there is *some* kind of effect on your magic from everything you take into your body, be it food, drink, drugs (illegal or not)... This is why fasting (under the appropriate circumstances) can be so powerful.

Now, as to the negativity/positivity of that effect... well, that's the real question, I suppose.

Personally, I'm not much into the drugs (I'm not rabidly against them... I'm just more like, "eh, whatever"). I like a bit of alcohol here and again, but not so much as magical aid. In fact, I passed out in circle once on Midsummer after having just a wine cooler before ritual (and I had eaten and was hydrated, too... though it was very hot). I'm not a lightweight, but it lead me to believe that I shouldn't be drinking alcohol before doing ritual.

The wine imbibed as part of libation or "cakes and ale" does not, in my mind, make enough of an effect to be at all deleterious. Perhaps if I took a couple shots of tequila in a "cookies and shots" kind of libation feast thing, then it would effect my circle closing, but a couple sips of wine? Not big enough to notice.

As for illegal and prescription drugs, well, I don't have the experience to fully make a decision regarding them, and I'll leave it at that for now. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[aislin_ryann]

A difficult and oft-debated question... In my mind, there can be no question... there is *some* kind of effect on your magic from everything you take into your body, be it food, drink, drugs (illegal or not)... This is why fasting (under the appropriate circumstances) can be so powerful.


I know that anytime I have taken in something that isn't normal (such as water and healthy foods) I feel different. My mind and body function differently because they are processing the item. I feel that drugs, prescribed or illegal, can effect your workings because they have a tendency to numb the body. I know that I like to experience all aspects of rituals and magick so I don't like to hinder my chances! :)

[Dawa Lhamo]

I know that anytime I have taken in something that isn't normal (such as water and healthy foods) I feel different. My mind and body function differently because they are processing the item. I feel that drugs, prescribed or illegal, can effect your workings because they have a tendency to numb the body. I know that I like to experience all aspects of rituals and magick so I don't like to hinder my chances! :)At the same time, though, one reason people do use drugs for magic is that they've got some kind of inhibitions that they're trying to overcome. If you're naturally very uptight and strictly attached to a fixed view of reality, then perhaps certain drugs can help relax you and let you experience something outside that fixed view. It really depends upon the person. Of course, a lot of drugs just enhance your state of mind, including the problematic bits, and *thats* why you hear all about paranoia and schizophrenia and such.... because drugs will exacerbate mental problems. Anyway... Just thought I'd point that out.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Omaedon]

Well...that is somewhat true Dawa. Some drugs do exacerbate mental health problems, but that is only true when it comes to harder drugs like LSD's and Hallucinagens. However, I'm a former marijuana-addict, I know some people will see this and say "But marijuana isn't addictive" and that is also true, from a physical stand point, it is however, mentally addictive. I also have several mental health problems, Bi-polar, manic-depressive, Advanced Dilusionary Schizophrenia, Adult ADD, and some weird one that has a direct impact on how you release anger. Anyway, during the 5 years I was on marijuana, it never made my mental instability worse, if anything it cleared my problems up until the effect wore off. As for the whole Paranoia issue...mental health disability or not, smoking pot makes EVERYONE paranoid because the THC that makes you "high" effects your metabolism, your reaction speed (not by much though, maybe a quarter of a second) your stress levels, some chemicals producing glands (saliva, nostril mucus, sweat, etc.) all suffer some kind of change. And I never experienced my body becoming "numb" during a marijuana smoking situation. So in my own opinion, I don't see a problem with people using marijuana in rituals, but I don't think they should use other drugs like Acid, Heroine, Cocaine, Inhalants, Ecstacy, etc.

[StormVixen]

i use cannabis and i used to use magic mushrooms they have helped me with my spirituality and i havent suffered any ill effects (so far). i am always careful when using any sort of mind altering substance and reasearch its recreational and spiritual uses and effects... i dont use drugs alot, but i am researching different effects of legal hallusenogens such as morning glory, which is very different to anything else i have tried... it is a VERY spiritual drug and i wouldnt use it recreationally...

saying that, i dont do magic(k) so my answer was pointless... i just like the spiritual awareness drugs can give... i find they are totally different to meditation and visuialisation...

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well...that is somewhat true Dawa. Some drugs do exacerbate mental health problems, but that is only true when it comes to harder drugs like LSD's and Hallucinagens. However, I'm a former marijuana-addict, I know some people will see this and say "But marijuana isn't addictive" and that is also true, from a physical stand point, it is however, mentally addictive. I also have several mental health problems, Bi-polar, manic-depressive, Advanced Dilusionary Schizophrenia, Adult ADD, and some weird one that has a direct impact on how you release anger. Anyway, during the 5 years I was on marijuana, it never made my mental instability worse, if anything it cleared my problems up until the effect wore off. As for the whole Paranoia issue...mental health disability or not, smoking pot makes EVERYONE paranoid because the THC that makes you "high" effects your metabolism, your reaction speed (not by much though, maybe a quarter of a second) your stress levels, some chemicals producing glands (saliva, nostril mucus, sweat, etc.) all suffer some kind of change. And I never experienced my body becoming "numb" during a marijuana smoking situation. So in my own opinion, I don't see a problem with people using marijuana in rituals, but I don't think they should use other drugs like Acid, Heroine, Cocaine, Inhalants, Ecstacy, etc.I'd like to add that the paranoia associated with marijuana has *a lot* to do with the fact that it is illegal and that being caught with it has some very serious legal ramifications. If you consider *that* fact in addition to the drug's biological effects, (including the heightened mental state), then it naturally follows that marijuana increases paranoia. (However, I'd like to see some studies of marijuana-associated paranoia in places where it is *not* illegal, such as Amsterdam. I would be willing to bet that it is far lower, if not absent, in such places.)

It was probably a mistake on my part to say "mental problems" because I was really intending to refer to all mental states, "problematic" or otherwise. I strongly disagree, though, that it is *ONLY* the harder drugs that have this effect, though. True, the effects of marijuana on one's mental state may be milder than LSD, but that effect is still there. With both drugs, some perceptions are heightened and others dulled, and corresponding changes in mental state take place.

Perhaps with your case, the mental states within you that were enhanced were those not associated with your mental disorders but with more "normal" states, and perhaps the factors that play into your disorders, such as anxiety, are dulled by the marijuana.

This isn't the case for all people, though, and I have known several people for whom this isn't the case and for whom marijuana, even, has negatively exacerbated certain mental states. I firmly believe, though, that these drugs (soft and hard) don't create mental problems out of nothing, but start with whatever states of mind (latent though they may be) are already present.

The issue is very entangled, because biologically there really is almost never a "cause and effect" but a very intricate web of causes and variation, and the more we are learning about how our emotions and mental states really effect our own biologies, the more complex the issue becomes of determining what exactly caused the effects that a person experiences after taking a drug.

I was reading about Huntington's disease for a class once and I came across an interesting situation... if you look statistically, you'll note that depression is very high among sufferers of Huntington's. But the question then that needs to be asked is whether the depression is caused by the biological action of the disease or is caused by the realization of the person that they have a degenerative disease. Simple statistics can't tell you that. Same thing with paranoia and marijuana. Are people paranoid because of the biological action of marijuana or because they know they'll go to jail if discovered in possession of it? Simple statistics can't tell you the answer. Personally, I think the answer is in between, but I would certainly not discount the effect of the illegality of marijuana on causing paranoia.

In any case, I stand by my original statements. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[AlleyCat]

I don't take any drugs however I have had antibiotics, cold and flu, tried the pill once and never again, and do drink a reasonable amount of caffiene so was just wondering about other peoples experiences with a range of drugs..

I found with antibiotics and cold and flu it made me feel "fuzzy" and nearly "blocked" in a way, just felt like half a plug in a drain hole if that makes sense..

With the pill (took it for chronic menstral pain and bad acne on my back that was so bad I couldnt lay on my back but all gone now! yay) I felt empty inside like a huge gaping hole inside me and got very depressed and found workings, well, didn't work...

Caffiene Ive not had much of a problem with but it doesnt seem to help much either..

Alley Cat

[Xentor]

I found that people who use drugs to alter their state of consciousness prior to doing magic, are unable to achieve the altered mind-state without drugs. Perhaps they might learn to do it without drugs, perhaps not. For them at that moment, the drugs are the tool they need to perform the magic.

Then of course, there are people who use drugs without caring for magic at all.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I found that people who use drugs to alter their state of consciousness prior to doing magic, are unable to achieve the altered mind-state without drugs. Perhaps they might learn to do it without drugs, perhaps not. For them at that moment, the drugs are the tool they need to perform the magic.That's interesting, because I've always heard, for the Faerie Shaman ritual, that though a hallucinogen is used at the first, it only opens the "gateway" and that afterward, no drugs are needed, just the songs...

Though it does make sense in general. If your inhibitions still exist in your sober state, then they'll still keep you from getting to that state of mind; drugs might bypass the problem, but they won't solve it. Hmmmm.... (makes me wonder why the Faerie Shaman would be different... the power of flashbacks, perhaps?)

Interesting thoughts are being provoked today... ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[AlleyCat]

Sometimes people need to see to believe? Maybe after they have seen with the assistance of drugs they find it easier to get past the limitations they place on themselves and can work towards using less and less of a drug until they can do it by themselves? Like training wheels on a bike?

[Geministar]

Well as a person who was very addicited to pharmacueticals I can say that I have never really had a problem with my rituals or spells, but I know they could have possibly been better without. I am in a methadone clinic now and have been for the past 3 years, and still no problem, although I was a practicing pagan for only about 2 years completley sober. Well I guess I shouldnt say completley sober, cause in those days I used to drink occaisionally and do acid, ecstasy, mushrooms, and such occasionally also, and would use them again in my rituals. I would say however that I think if I would have learned my magic while using drugs, I would have had to have them to get into the right state of mind as mentioned before.Its also the same way though as I have had to learn to make it right while on methadone daily too. I am sure it does affect me and my magic, but not to a degree that is noticeable to me. My bosy and mind have addapted to the chemicals and poisions I have put into my body for so long, and so my magic has had to do so also. I think that this can be different for everyone though and alot of it depends on the person.

[AlleyCat]

Yeah true I suppose if you're physical self adapts you're spiritual self to a degree would do so also :-) thanks for sharing *hugs* how long will u be i the clinic for?

Thanks again for sharing :-)

Alley Cat

[Geministar]

I have been going there on my own, although there are some people who are court ordered to go. Basically (in Florida anyways, its different everywhere) you sign yourself up, and you go to the milligrams that you feel comfortable on. They start you out on 30 milligrams of methadone, which for a non-drug addict well lets just say, its alot. I am on 140 milligrams a day which would probobly kill a horse, but your tolerance builds up and you have to keep going higher. The reason I stay on so much is that liquid methadone, which is what they give you, is made so that no other opiates can work in your system until the methadone is out of your system. If you stay on a lower dose, you can still get high on it. If I stay on a higher dose, I dont worry so much about relapse.They drug test you often there and if it comes up dirty then you cant take it home with you (I bring home 6 bottles a week, so I only go once a week cause I've been a good little girl).Basically I leave the clinic when I'm ready. There are people that have been goig there for more than 20 years. Its honestly much easier to get off of the pills then the methadone, anf if I would have known how hard it is to get off of it 3 years ago, I never would have gone on it. It takes about 3-5 days for the dope sickness to wear off when your using pills like painkillers. It takes well over a month for the sickness to wear off with methadone.Like I said before, I have had to learn to be on methadone, and make my magic and rituals effective. You learn to addapt in any situation that is one of the amazing things about us humans! I am also obviously very open about it, and I find some type of thereapy in being open about my drug use.I'll get off of it one day, probobly with the help of magic and different types of healing, but I wont do so until I am sure that I wont pick it up again. I ruined my life once, and I want to make sure that I learn from my failures and dont do it again. I am also very open about it within the pagan community because there are always people out there that like to tell me that if I was really a witch, I wouldnt do anything to harm my body(of course its usually the alcoholics that like to tell me this!Like alcohol isnt a poision to your body!)and I feel the need to educate pagans from a knowing place, as I have actually been there. Alright I'll shut up now!:)

[AlleyCat]

Does methadone cause much in the way of bodily harm? Organs etc? It's really good that you are open and receptive about it *big hugs* it's something that is often misunderstood and I think the public would benefit from some education programs about it, I myself know absolute FA about the subject all I'd been told its a "drug to get off shitter drugs" and thats about it lol. In car accidents and the like the number one drug involved is alcohol, as is in domestic violence and in 2/3rds of murders the victim, offender or both had consumed alcohol, so has to make you wonder doesnt it! lol

I've never really had a drug addiction except when I was accidentally hook to panadol but was in the early stages and realised in time to stop with only a few days bad headache and cramps but Ive seen a lot of people on drugs, one boy I knew lost something like 30kg was a walking skeleton, was in hospital about 6 times and was puking and spitting blood before his parents forced him to get help, think he was 16 but even now he's still on em a few years later..

I lost my train of thought lol so will leave it here for now, but yet again thanks for sharing your story *hugs* and congratulations for getting off the drugs (besides the meth of course LOL :-).) you're a champ :-)

Alley Cat

[Geministar]

Well methadone is a synthetic opiate so its man made unlike almost all other painkillers which come from poppy plants just like heroin. It is becoming much more popular for methadone to be written out for pain management and I know quite a few people outside the clinic that are on it. There are alot of rumors as to what liquid methadone does to your body such as that it rots your teeth, that it gets into your bones and eats them ect. According to the methadone web-site these are completley untrue.It does make your bones ache for some reason and thats were that myth came from and drug addicts in and of themselves ususlly have bad teeth because they have bad hygeine. Let me also clear up that not all of us have bad hygeine or rotting teeth, I have a very clean house and shower and brush my teeth everyday, but I was also a pill popper, not a heroin addict or a crack head, and in my experiences, those are the two that usually fall under the bad hygeine thing (I've been told that heroin addicts like to not shower because it makes there high better!). You can also have children while on methadone, you just have to be under a doctors care. I have a friend who had a baby on it, and they treat it the same way as if you were on a prescription for painkillers. There are alot of people out there in chronic pain who cant get off the painkillers, but want to have children. Your doctor just watches over everything and they keep the baby for a couple of extra days when its born to watch over it, as they are sometimes born addicted to these drugs as well and have to be weened off of them, but it doesnt cause any birth defects. Methadone isnt that harmful to your body, or not anymore than alot of other prescriptions.I have had my liver checked and its fine, I dont know of anyone who has had liver or any other organ damage due to methadone.

I personally find it a bit crazy that alot of people dont consider alcohol a drug. It has caused alot of people alot of harm. I hope this covers what you were wanting to know and thank you for the hugs!!!:)

[AlleyCat]

Yes it did thanks for explaining it all, I always find its better to talk to someone who has or is experiencing an event in their lives than the often glorified or mythfilled websites that lurk about :-) You learn something new everyday lol :floating: it's a good thing u didn't damage anything from the pills either, a girl at my school a few years ahead of me was on painkillers then one day she had about 3 packets of about70something pills, didn't survive that one, but half for organs had been damaged anyway (at that point I dont think how healthy they were wouldve made a difference after 70something).

Anyways going to be late for work lol (again, damn addictive website lol no pun intended there :-S lol), but thanks for explaining everything to me and make sure you keep us all posted with your progress :-) *few more hugs* lol :-). Key to acceptance is through understanding I hope some other people have learned from your experience as well :floating:

[Acid09]

The thing with drugs and magick is that few know much about the drugs they're using let alone how to use them with magick. Personally I am not going to judge people for their choices. But in my expierence most people who use drugs and magick are more interested in the magick of the drugs. Meaning they just want to get high and sometimes justify their doing so by using magick as a scape goat. To me, if one wants to get high they should and they shouldn't decieve themselves about it.

I also know that if one is knowledgable about drugs, their affects on the body and what not, that it is possible to use drugs and magick productively. But few really know what they are doing when using drugs and magick. They are just experimenting.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I also know that if one is knowledgable about drugs, their affects on the body and what not, that it is possible to use drugs and magick productively. But few really know what they are doing when using drugs and magick. They are just experimenting.Very, very true. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo