Our lack direct interaction with the Heathen gods

[seapearls]

Oh I hope that title says it.....edit: and sorry I left out "of".

I have often read and heard from others that the Norse & Germanic gods don't interact with the human world as gods from other paths do, that they have always been more distant. That we have more interaction with the wights & other spirits.

I was reading my Ancestors of Avalon book and came across this section that just hit me as saying it all:


The girls were watching the local marsh women make a simple offering of braided straw & feathers at one of their forest shrines set in a hollow oak tree...

As far as Damisa could tell the spirits of this land were much more approachable than the gods of Atlantis, who were in essence non human forces who dwelt beyond the mortal sphere. For all their legendary quirks and feudes, Manoah or Ni-Terat seemed less like individuals than signifiers, representatives of the imeasurable powers that moved the sun and the stars.

Although sailors prayed to the Star Shaper because he was the Lord of the Sea, and children prayed to the great Maker because it helped them to sleep at night, not even Ni-Terat, the Dark Mother of All, had interacted to save a single human life. Only Caratra, the Nurturer, the Child Who Becomes Mother, was traditionally believed to demonstrate a genuine interest in ordinary people, and that was only a few times a year.

In contrast, the Lake folk honored the simple spirits of field and forest. But they did not treat them as gods; they were not magnificent beings who might eventually grant a favor, but more like good neighbors, inclined to be helpful whether they notice you or not.

Then Damisa went to her knees and gave an offering and for the moment seemed to feel the touch of a presence, curious, a little amused, but not unfriendly. She thought, Someone was listening, and that was more than she had ever felt in any of the splendid temples from Atlantis.

[skilly-nilly]

Oh I hope that title says it.....edit: and sorry I left out "of".

I have often read and heard from others that the Norse & Germanic gods don't interact with the human world as gods from other paths do, that they have always been more distant. That we have more interaction with the wights & other spirits.

I was reading my Ancestors of Avalon book and came across this section that just hit me as saying it all:

Somehow the quote you posted seems to be speaking fictionally about Atlantis and does not mention Norse & Germanic Gods....this raises 2 questions in my head:
1) Do you mean to imply that the Norse/Germanic Gods have some connection with Atlantis?
and
2) Can you cite some reference that says Norse/Germanic Gods don't generally interact---I always thought they did in spades!

Thanks!

[Driffinna]

Oh I hope that title says it.....edit: and sorry I left out "of".

I have often read and heard from others that the Norse & Germanic gods don't interact with the human world as gods from other paths do, that they have always been more distant. That we have more interaction with the wights & other spirits.


Honestly.. I feel no distance, and I personally don't know many who do. Some may feel a distance from certain particularly gods, like I know very few people who feel close with Baldur, but as an overall statement no. Many of the Norse stories are of them travelling on earth. Odin, Lodur and Hoenir created the first people while walking Midgarth's shores. Thor caught the midgarth serpant on his fishing line while fishing in midgarth's seas. Odin, Loki and Hoenir are walking on earth during the Volsung sagas, where there was a great amount of interaction with humans. Including the gods having to pay compensation for accidently killing someone. Families could trace their lineages back to gods. Such as the Volsungs, tranced their line back to Odin. The Yngling's in Sweden to Frey. Odin drove the wild hunt through the sky over Midgarth. Thor constantly protected earth from the Jotun, and he can be found in every thunderstorm. Forseti being a god of legal law, while I don't know any lore that support him being on midgarth or not, being law is such a human thing, I am not sure how he wouldn't be here. A depiction of a mysterious old man in the lore and saga is probably Odin. The Lay of Vafthruthnir is all about Odin's interaction with people here on earth. In Sweden Frey supposedly came down the earth once a year and was carted in wagon by one of his priests from town to town on his way to a place where a grand festival was held in his honor. The same came be said of Nerthsus.

As far as what you read.. the Norse didn't really have "splendid temples." There were a few in which we have records but for the most part, such as at Uppsala. However, for the most part Blots and sumbels took place in groves or the home, which I think makes them much more approachable than those that require you to go to a temple for worship. How much more approachable can they get when they join you in your home, rather then you having to go out to them?

And if historical accounts and lore of how the norse gods are not distant is not enough. I can point to almost any asatruar I know and ask them how they feel about the gods being distant or not and they will say no. The gods are not suppose to be distant, far away, looming and immortal. They are here, they express the same emotions humans do, the same pleasures humans do and sometimes the same worries do and in the case of the Norse they can even die, being compelled by the same laws of nature like humans do. So for me there is no distance between me and the Aesir and Vanir, and if I felt that there was, then I would have continued my search to somewhere else and not have found my home with Asatau.

[seapearls]

Somehow the quote you posted seems to be speaking fictionally about Atlantis and does not mention Norse & Germanic Gods....this raises 2 questions in my head:
1) Do you mean to imply that the Norse/Germanic Gods have some connection with Atlantis?
and
2) Can you cite some reference that says Norse/Germanic Gods don't generally interact---I always thought they did in spades!

Thanks!

Haha no, to answer #1 I just put that as an example Atlantis has nothing to do with our norse gods. lol

And for #2 I have read that often on Asatru Lore and here I'll post something one of the members sent me thismorning. Only part of it so not to violate any rules:

It wasn't that primary gods were not approached, they, in fact, belonged to Midgard -- they, like man, are part of this world. Their involvement with man, however, was communitywide as opposed to personalized. Gods (what might be called demigods approached for personal reasons were those of the local area, i.e. those 'closer to home', -- ancestors, unnamed well-gods, spring-gods, etc.

No mystery really. Governors [like main gods] run a state but the rarely engage in specialized personal treatment on special occasions. Mayors [like regional gods] are a little more approachable on a personal level, and aldemen or ward-clerks [like ancestors], even more so.

Anyone claiming to have a personal relationship with a primary god during the heathen period, like now, were certain to have been challenged to 'prove it' -- this would and does seriously slow down an overgrowth of spiritual 'name-dropping.' Secondly, the approach of the Germanic heathen encourages personal knowledge of one's own status within family/ community, and following community/ social protocol for getting needs met while places a limits on selfish and greedy acts.

He also quoted a section from Simek's Beliefs of the Germanic Heathen (Die Glaube der Germanen, 2005) on this topic, & I am currently trying to find more sources for this type of information.

[seapearls]

Honestly.. I feel no distance, and I personally don't know many who do. Some may feel a distance from certain particularly gods, like I know very few people who feel close with Baldur, but as an overall statement no. Many of the Norse stories are of them travelling on earth. Odin, Lodur and Hoenir created the first people while walking Midgarth's shores. Thor caught the midgarth serpant on his fishing line while fishing in midgarth's seas. Odin, Loki and Hoenir are walking on earth during the Volsung sagas, where there was a great amount of interaction with humans. Including the gods having to pay compensation for accidently killing someone. Families could trace their lineages back to gods. Such as the Volsungs, tranced their line back to Odin. The Yngling's in Sweden to Frey. Odin drove the wild hunt through the sky over Midgarth. Thor constantly protected earth from the Jotun, and he can be found in every thunderstorm. Forseti being a god of legal law, while I don't know any lore that support him being on midgarth or not, being law is such a human thing, I am not sure how he wouldn't be here. A depiction of a mysterious old man in the lore and saga is probably Odin. The Lay of Vafthruthnir is all about Odin's interaction with people here on earth. In Sweden Frey supposedly came down the earth once a year and was carted in wagon by one of his priests from town to town on his way to a place where a grand festival was held in his honor. The same came be said of Nerthsus.

As far as what you read.. the Norse didn't really have "splendid temples." There were a few in which we have records but for the most part, such as at Uppsala. However, for the most part Blots and sumbels took place in groves or the home, which I think makes them much more approachable than those that require you to go to a temple for worship. How much more approachable can they get when they join you in your home, rather then you having to go out to them?

And if historical accounts and lore of how the norse gods are not distant is not enough. I can point to almost any asatruar I know and ask them how they feel about the gods being distant or not and they will say no. The gods are not suppose to be distant, far away, looming and immortal. They are here, they express the same emotions humans do, the same pleasures humans do and sometimes the same worries do and in the case of the Norse they can even die, being compelled by the same laws of nature like humans do. So for me there is no distance between me and the Aesir and Vanir, and if I felt that there was, then I would have continued my search to somewhere else and not have found my home with Asatau.

I know the lore you mention & I totaly get what your saying. That's why I like to ask questions and get opinions on some things I come across. Thanks :)

[Driffinna]

He also quoted a section from Simek's Beliefs of the Germanic Heathen (Die Glaube der Germanen, 2005) on this topic, & I am currently trying to find more sources for this type of information.


OK that quote explains better what exactly you are looking for. And I am not sure if this would help you or not but what I would say to that is you want to read is not norse specifically but into medieval conception of the individual in general. I don't unforunatly have the texts off the top of my head (and its a lot of dry psychology and anthropology unforunatly), but I can get it to you later today, because I am actually seeing the teacher who taught me this two years ago. It is that most people until the renassiance really didn't have a concept of the individual. The exceptions to that rule of course would kings and heros, but the common people did not. Things were experienced as a group. Who you were was governed in a group. It was dictated by a title your group had, a family name, a guild name, etc. If one person got praised you all were praised, if one person commited a crime even though the rest of you would not be directly punished, you all took a hit to your reputation. Similarly, though most of my examples are Christian not pagan, your religious experiences were also done as a group. During the Renassiance that changed. Obviously by that point all of Europe was Christian, but suddenly the it was no longer about the group, but the individual. And the individual relationship with god, rather than the group experience with god. Which is why I think it is possible for people even today to have a individual experience with a god even if it is Pagan.

Our conception of who we are has completely changed from the medieval, era. So for me personally, I don't challenge a person as the person in the quote does, if they have a personally relationship with a god, unless they start telling you things about that diety that sounds off their rocker, or start giving them qualities that according the lore they most likely don't have. Just because they feel like giving Skadhi the same qualities as I dunno Kali or perhaps a fertility goddess when they don't. Or when some people try to claim Freya was a peaceful goddess!! It is these people that I question. Not that you can't have a UPG as northeast calls its, a personal notion about a god in that is not in the lore, but I know a lot of people's who notions make a lot of sense, who put a lot of research into the lore and communication time in with that supposed god to come to that conclusion. While its obvious other people haven't. But that is just how I approach things, obviously the person you quoted still thinks of the Gods in the medieval mindset and so has a different opinion on the matter.

If you think those sources are what you are looking for, I will get the name of the sources to look into this for you later today. Sorry if my reply sounded condescending, rereading I realized it did a little. I went through all the examples, because your question was blanket statement like, it seemed you didn't think the gods had any interaction with people, I could not understand where your question was coming from.

Edited because i have horrible grammer and to explain what I am trying to say better.

[seapearls]

OK that quote explains better what exactly you are looking for. And I am not sure if this would help you or not but what I would say to that is you want to read is not norse specifically but into medieval conception of the individual in general. I don't unforunatly have the texts off the top of my head (and its a lot of dry psychology and anthropology unforunatly), but I can get it to you later today, because I am actually seeing the teacher who taught me this two years ago. It is that most people until the renassiance really didn't have a concept of the individual. The exceptions to that rule of course would kings and heros, but the common people did not. Things were experienced as a group. Who you were was governed in a group. It was dictated by a title your group had, a family name, a guild name, etc. If one person got praised you all were praised, if one person commited a crime even though the rest of you would not be directly punished, you all took a hit to your reputation. Similarly, though most of my examples are Christian not pagan, your religious experiences were also done as a group. During the Renassiance that changed. Obviously by that point all of Europe was Christian, but suddenly the it was no longer about the group, but the individual. And the individual relationship with god, rather than the group experience with god. Which is why I think it is possible for people even today to have a individual experience with a god even if it is Pagan.

Our conception of who we are has completely changed from the medieval, era. So for me personally, I don't challenge a person as the person in the quote does, if they have a personally relationship with a god, unless they start telling you things about that diety that sounds off their rocker, or start giving them qualities that according the lore they most likely don't have. Just because they feel like giving Skadhi the same qualities as I dunno Kali or perhaps a fertility goddess when they don't. Or when some people try to claim Freya was a peaceful goddess!! It is these people that I question. Not that you can't have a UPG as northeast calls its, a personal notion about a god in that is not in the lore, but I know a lot of people's who notions make a lot of sense, who put a lot of research into the lore and communication time in with that supposed god to come to that conclusion. While its obvious other people haven't. But that is just how I approach things, obviously the person you quoted still thinks of the Gods in the medieval mindset and so has a different opinion on the matter.

If you think those sources are what you are looking for, I will get the name of the sources to look into this for you later today. Sorry if my reply sounded condescending, rereading I realized it did a little. I went through all the examples, because your question was blanket statement like, it seemed you didn't think the gods had any interaction with people, I could not understand where your question was coming from.

Edited because i have horrible grammer and to explain what I am trying to say better.

No your post and responses are just fine. I was unsure how to post my question and was going off the impression I get from some others on the gods. I'd love to see the sources your talking about but no hurry I have to work today anyways.

But the gods being less available than wights or other spirit folk does make sense to me tho. The gods may have human interraction regularly like you say but IMO are still busy people. So as he & my book stated, those less god like (I guess youl'd call them) are probably more readily availabe and more approachable to call upon.

[aluokaloo]

really? I have seen nearly all of my Gods of the Norse pantheon several times in my dreams of, Fenris, Odin, Thor, and Freya, and have heard the voices of Fenris, Frigga and Bragi the only ones I have never heard or seen are the Norns.

[Driffinna]

But the gods being less available than wights or other spirit folk does make sense to me tho. The gods may have human interraction regularly like you say but IMO are still busy people. So as he & my book stated, those less god like (I guess youl'd call them) are probably more readily availabe and more approachable to call upon.

That as well makes sense to me. There were tribal gods and goddesses for just one tribe. And wights of course were specific to that house, or that land and so therefore less busy as you put it. But I still think its possible to have a direct relationship with a god or goddess, I know from personal experiences and from experiences of other.

But if we say that it is true that its hard to have a direct relationship for the reasons you state then wouldn't that be true of gods in all of the different pantheons out there? Not just the Norse?

[Renny]

I think this is all a matter of personal belief.

I feel really connected to the gods. Sometimes I just "feel" their presence, I connect with them when I meditate, I sometimes dream of them. I've seen two ravens fly over me, and it could be a coincidence but it was an important day and everything went very well. I can't help but wonder if Odin was watching over me.

Then again I don't exactly think by the history books... so maybe it's just me, but I feel like I can interact with the gods.

[Mjollnir]

It's all in the lore, if you read the lore you will see how and when the gods interact with us.

[Driffinna]

So after talking a bit with some friends of mine... I have not read the book by Simek, that the owner of the quote mentioned, so I do not know what proof Simek has on the matter but I was reminded of something that make a bit of a hole in the owner of the quotes thoughts. First of all, we have no idea what the common people's relationships were with the gods. They are not mentioned in the lore, at all. Our entire focus is on heroes and Kings. Who wants to know about as she put it "horvald Q. Private tilled his fields all day and gave an offering to Thor at the end of it? Or about how Freyjadis M. Housewife gave offerings to Freyja for fertility and help with her pregnancy after a hard day over the stove?" While it might be in interest to anthropologists and recons and pagans like us today, back then it was normal life, it would be like recording how I got up in the morning and had a bowl of special-K and then left for my class like i do every day. Not terribly exciting is it? Secondly, the heriarchly system that the owner of the quote seems to be followng is something that didn't develope until late in the history of Norse and developed in Iceland much later. Last in the sagas themselves people claim to have a relationship with a particular god all the time and everyone accepts it. No one is like "Hrafnkel claims to have a very personal relationship with Frey, I am going to challenge him on that and he better damn well be able to prove it." No, in the saga of Hrafnkel Frey's Godi, everyone just accepts that he has a close relationship with Frey. No one questions Egil's being an Odin's man. And Egil was traveling all over the place and highly disliked all over Norway, you would think it would come up as one insults or challenges against him, but it doesn't. And Egil while he wasn't fond of the priests of Frey, didn't question their relationship with Frey. And those are just two examples off the top of my head, i am sure if I was to sit down with my Saga's of the Icelanders book, for a few minutes i could come up with a dozen more.

While my friend, and I do agree though, people would probably be more likely to go to wights, disir, alfar and tribal gods first, the fact that so many people in the lore do have personal relationships with the gods should not be ignored.

[Mjollnir]

It also goes to what exactly she interprets that interaction to be.......


You also have it in the myths...Thor and Loki stopping by the farmers house on the way to Utgard-Loki's castle and taking the son and daughter with them after the son disobeyed and ate the marrow from the goats bones.

You have Odin being slowly burned over the fire until one of the kings son's releases him.

Odin and Loki in human form being held captive for killing the farmers son who was in the form of an otter.

Odin wooing and sleeping with whats-his-names daughter in order to give birth to Vidar whose sole purpose was to kill Hod in revenge for Baldrs death.

[seapearls]

Thanks for everyones replies, I'm just now seeing all these other responses since my post #7 for some reason. I don't have much to say on the topic anymore, it's all just making me think thats all....which is good.

Maybe its a difference between message boards, the Heathens on MW are much more open obviously than the ones on a strictly Heathen board. And the views of Heathenry and the lore seem to also be a little different also. It s like it shows me two paths of the Heathen view to follow I guess.

[heathenwolf]

Ive found that ancestors seem to do a lot of communicating between the Gods and family members. Perhaps that is part of the system.

[seapearls]

I've found that ancestors seem to do a lot of communicating between the Gods and family members. Perhaps that is part of the system.

I've been thinking more on this topic lately, I'll keep your findings here in mind. Thanks