All religions are legitamite?

[Artemis84]

:meanface: I was wondering about alternate religions. Paganism states that all paths are paths to the same god. What about religions (cults) that worship only the dark side of Spirit. :devil: Even though we don't like to think of "evil" religions being legitamite, aren't they just a little? Spirit can be loving as well as cruel. But is there any "rule" saying that we must balance between the two to make our religions true? I hope you get what I'm saying because I almost lost myself! :huh:

BB! :wave:

[mato]

Live and let die, so long as they dont bug me.

I dont recomend them cause its almost garenteed self destruction but it is from the 'dark side' that we have alot of our current knowledge... examples of what not to do and often what is perfectly ok... :D We have and can learn from people treading the dark side and the occasional trip into the darker aspects of the craft is sometimes needed for growth, though there are some limits.

[Amethyst Rose]

IMO, ALL religions are legitimate. Whether a person worships only the "light" or only the "dark" their religion is valid TO THEM, and therefore, it IS valid -- It may not seem right to others, but it is still valid, regardless.
Officially there is a guideline made up by someone that determines if a belief system qualifies as a religion.... however....
What really matters is what's in a person's heart. If a person feels that their beliefs constitute a religion, then who are we to argue? We can't dictate what another feels in their heart.
Of course, people will always have different beliefs and opinions on the subject....life would be mighty boring without variety.....

[Myst]

Originally posted by Artemis84
Paganism states that all paths are paths to the same god.

Paganism doesn't state anything. :D Believing that is a common belief of Pagan religions, but I'm sure someone's just about to come in here and jump and scream about how "not all Pagans believe that". Oh don't even get me started on that argument. :)


Originally posted by Artemis84
What about religions (cults) that worship only the dark side of Spirit. But is there any "rule" saying that we must balance between the two to make our religions true?

Being as Wicca doesn't balance dark and light, no there's no rule. ;) There are no rules as to what makes a religion true.

The fastest way to tick me off is to tell my I don't have a "real religion", that I have "false beliefs", or that my beliefs are "guaranteed self destruction". It is impossible for anyone to know the true beliefs or path of another.

[Amethyst Rose]

Originally posted by Myst


Being as Wicca doesn't balance dark and light, no there's no rule.


Uhhh.....it doesn't? Then what religion have I been following for the past 6 years? I don't know about your Wicca, but my Wicca *definately* balances light and dark -- without light and dark there can be no balance, and therefore no growth or understanding.
I'd like to think that most Wiccans (especially trad. wiccans), will agree that balance is essential to the religion...... otherwise I missed out on something, big time.....

[Myst]

Sorry I'm going to have to disagree entirely, being as the chief principle is "an ye harm none do as ye will", and that doesn't exactly encourage balancing light with dark. Threefold rule? Not really a balance there either. When was the last time you found a Wiccan invoking Kali, Hekate, or the Lord of the Hunt, or performing a spell to get a destructive person out of their life? How about fith-fathing, hexing; sometimes even works such as "destructing" a bad habit, or "repelling" problems. They might do a blessing spell that the person will find a happier place to be, but that's not really negative is it? You may believe in balance but I haven't found many Wiccans living the dark side. Dark side being destruction, chaos, repelling, removing, ending, violence, etc.

Just my experience, and more of a general statement then one of "if you don't ___ you aren't Wiccan" or "all Wiccans do ____". Also my opinion and I don't plan on arguing about it too much :)

[Scipeno]

I will also have to disagree with you.
Wicca does have balance to it.
Just because they dont do some thing blatently evil or wrong does not meant it does not also embrase the dark side. To do so would make there actions dark without light. Still without balance. I also dont know any Mother Terisa Wiccans. The very embraseing of god and goddess brings balance.

Also I hope everyone has a merry yule.
BB scipeno

[amberlaine]

Originally posted by Myst
Sorry I'm going to have to disagree entirely, being as the chief principle is "an ye harm none do as ye will", and that doesn't exactly encourage balancing light with dark. Threefold rule? Not really a balance there either. When was the last time you found a Wiccan invoking Kali, Hekate, or the Lord of the Hunt, or performing a spell to get a destructive person out of their life? How about fith-fathing, hexing; sometimes even works such as "destructing" a bad habit, or "repelling" problems. They might do a blessing spell that the person will find a happier place to be, but that's not really negative is it? You may believe in balance but I haven't found many Wiccans living the dark side. Dark side being destruction, chaos, repelling, removing, ending, violence, etc.

Just my experience, and more of a general statement then one of "if you don't ___ you aren't Wiccan" or "all Wiccans do ____". Also my opinion and I don't plan on arguing about it too much :)

My ex-HPS taught me how to bind. She also firmly believes, as do I, that a witch who cannot hex cannot heal.
Another ex-HPS was a dedicatant to the Morrigan and Ereshkigal, and a dedicated student of the LHP.
I myself am a budding demonologist.

THat said, however, balance has got nothing to do with "living the dark side". Balance has to do with the recognition of the dark as vital to our existences, and to our development as individuals. You can certainly choose to walk a path of Light and still have need of the dark. For example, I have yet to meet a Wiccan (a serious one, at any rate) who doesn't put any stock into the notion of descending into the Underworld--and if that's not a symbol of the dark, I don't know what is. Wiccans definitely do recognize that in order to evolve spiritually, we have to cultuvate (not destroy) the darker aspects of ourselves in order to destroy that which needs destroying and make room for whatever it is we wish to bring into our lives.

I think it's odd that people think that balance necessarily has to mean inviting chaos or violence or destruction into one's life. Balance doesn't mean that. I don't know anyone who wants their lives to be chaotic or violent or flled with hate. Most people I know want to live a blessed life, a life filled with "good things". THat doesn't mean they dont recognize a need for balance. As long as we recognize that the Dark has its place, and that without it we cannot have Light, then we are in full reconition of balance as the modum operandi of the universe.

[Amethyst Rose]

Amberlain, that is the exact answer that I was looking for. My beliefs say that for one to evolve spiritually, they must learn to balance the light and dark within themselves, just as it is in nature....and that means accepting that there is a balance between them..... nothing bothers me more than when someone says they are a "White witch/wiccan", because that screams unbalanced to me......no offence to any white witches out there :)

[Myst]

If you say so sparky.

Back to the topic. "What about religions (cults) that worship only the dark side of Spirit. Even though we don't like to think of "evil" religions being legitamite, aren't they just a little? "

I'm liable to question anyone who goes "your religion isn't legitimate" or judges someone for their beliefs. Either that or just shrug and think that person is a goof. heh. :)

[amberlaine]

My very favorite thing about this "no more rules" policy is that threads can now go off topic and breed real discussion. Kudos to Mol for that one!

[Myst]

And there wasn't real discussion before?

Personally I prefer to get it back on topic because I'm interested in what other people think on the subject, and because no amount of arguing about the other subject is going to change anyone's mind ;)

[dragonmagic64]

:evilway:
unless of course the dark energy is taking the form of argument at this point.
Once again balance.
:devil:
energy power , god goddess, good bad, light dark.
Topic, Tangant. (oops help me with the spelling).
:boing:
topic, topic , hey what was the topic.
Oh yea :smoke: :uzi: :apirate:
evil faith , and is it legit.
why wouldn't it be????
to whom is the legitamacy in question???
however I still feel that what we send finds us in the end, or chases use for eternity if there is no end.
reap sow, give recieve, create live with results.. :smash: have a smashing good day.

[Haedis]

Well I also believe that Wicca is a balance of many different forces, including the "dark and light" aspects of ourselves.
I think that all religions are legitimate. I read something on the Church of Satan website (I like to research many different religions) that someone (probably LaVey) said something along the lines of "religion is whatever is the most important to you" basically saying if stalking goats is whats the most important to me than it becomes my religion. Well in a respect I agree with that, and think that it would be legitimate. I really dont know if all religions are the path to the same God/dess. I believe in re-incarnation, most xtians dont, does that mean they will reincarnate? or that I will fail to reincarnate? Its sort of a gray area that I'm still mulling over. And I dont really think that people who do dilebrate harm to others and themselves will have the same after-life experiences as someone who works to better themselves and others.

[Xander67]

this is exactly why I am an advocate of repecting one anothers personal beliefs...

personally "an ye harm none, do what thou wilt"

I have one issue with that one, Karmic Resposiblility needs to be realised before we go around doing what ever feels right...

one down side to enlightenment, it tends to challenge all the things I was taught as a child, and it also makes me see things in a different light, but not always bright, there is a dark side that is just as real...

I think Myst has a valid point with reguards to the <quote> "I'm liable to question anyone who goes "your religion isn't legitimate" or judges someone for their beliefs.</quote>

I see an outpouring of wisdom and alot of people are re thinking thier beliefs...so in my opinion it is not uncommon to see a wide range of viewpoints... Oprah hit the nail on the head on her show today 12/24

Amberlaine had some interesting things to say about balance in respect to light/darkenss could it be that light uses darkness to propigate itself and vice versa???

why not !

I think its safe to say that we all agree to disagree, and Myst, I see no harm in standing up for your views, so what if it tuirns into an argument, there is such thing as healthy debate! lets rumble LOL

[Sequoia]

well, while I'm not really Wiccan, I do think it's kind of funny that when more people were claiming one viewpoint, and showing evidence and logical backing, someone from the other viewpoint tried to change the subject. . . ;)

At any rate, I personally belive any religion is just as vaild. Say joe p.(agan) smith made up a god. . . "supercalifragalisticexpialidocious", who was the god of longwindedness. Joe P. Smith lived by god S. He worshipped him, prayed to him for help, was a good man, and was good to others. . . who the heck am I to waltz into Joe's life and go "you know, God S isn't real. You should get your head out of the clouds."? I mean, to me, even if we don't belive that the god even exists. . . to Joe P. Smith, he surely does. For all we know, there COULD be a god S out there. And perhaps, just maybe, by his belief alone, Joe P. Smith actually called that god into existance. Who says it's impossible?

So to me, any religion is just as valid a belief system. However: I DO not approve of religions that encourage their people to hurt themselves or others. Fanatics of many of the main religions are horrible. You're welcome to belive in a god that thinks the whole world is a piece of dog crap and wants to destroy it, and I'll be a little annoyed/unnerved, but hey it's your spiritual life. BUT if you decide to help god TheWorldSucksLet'sBlowItUp speed up the destruction, you better darn well expect me to dislike your guts. If you run around blowing up things, hurting people, etc, you're not giving me very good reasons to respect your religion. Not to mention you're killing life. I don't give a toot if your god told you to blow up that Mc Donalds. I don't care if Mc Donalds has horrible food and even worse servace. The point is you blew up a building and killed people, and I"m sorry but that just pisses me off. Groups that mass-scuzzicide? (suicide) . . . *sighs* if they TRUELY belive. . . but they should NOT kill children, they should NOT force those who do not wish to do so, they should NOT have the whole people donate all their money, suicide at the leader's command, and then have the leader make off with the cash.

I think there are some universal wrongs that people understand. Things like abusing children (or spouses), stealing things, hurting or killing other people, destroying homes, lands, etc. . . these are things I think most people agree about that are generally considered "bad." Yes, there may be some religions where Ashahimm Beslochovitch can beat the crap outta his wife and be fully justified. . . and sickening as it is, if he says to me "my religion thinks it's ok to beat women and children" then there's really nothing I can do, except loudly and strongly voice my opinion that anybody who'd do that is a sick bastard. . . of course, in a polite, civilized way :bad: :2G:

Now, if Asahimm Beslochovitch desides to take this religious lesson to heart and beat his kiddo or wife in front of me. . . he's gonna get the crap beat outta him, or my (screen) name's not Puma!!! :bad: :meanface: :evilway: :smash:

:uzi: :shot: <~~ wife beater

So basically. . . . any belief is valid, as long as it's not out there actively harming people and things, as far as I'm concerned. I may not agree with it all (bleh, devil-worshipping?), but who am I to tell them they're wrong?

[Myst]

Originally posted by Puma Hime
well, while I'm not really Wiccan, I do think it's kind of funny that when more people were claiming one viewpoint, and showing evidence and logical backing, someone from the other viewpoint tried to change the subject. . . ;)

I think it's quite funny that some people will laugh that I refuse to argue with someone who has their own beliefs because mine are different and I'm not going to change their mind, and in the same post expound on why everyone should have their own beliefs as long as they don't harm anyone. :rotfl:

[Xander67]

actually, what I meant Myst was not that you werent argueing because you knew you wouldnt change anothers views, I merely was saying, dont be afraid to put in your 2 cents, I respect your views and find them interesting, and in fact some of your views have helped me look at things in a different light...and then again there are some that I am at this point unchanged,,,

perhaps argue was the wrong choice of words I was not calling you a chicken or anything ...

I just like to see a HEALTY exchange of Ideas on things

[Myst]

Yup, my resolution this year is to focus on healthy exchange rather then arguing Xan ;)

[Xander67]

HEHEH yeah, and I guess it helps to be open minded about things and respectfull too LOL .....

[Ari]

Originally posted by Myst
Sorry I'm going to have to disagree entirely, being as the chief principle is "an ye harm none do as ye will", and that doesn't exactly encourage balancing light with dark. Threefold rule? Not really a balance there either.

That would depend, I suppose, on how one interprets the rede and threefold law. Taking responsibility for your actions (which is what I see as the primary thrust of the whole Wiccan ethical system) has more to do with mindfullness than focusing on the light.


Originally posted by Myst
When was the last time you found a Wiccan invoking Kali, Hekate, or the Lord of the Hunt, or performing a spell to get a destructive person out of their life? How about fith-fathing, hexing; sometimes even works such as "destructing" a bad habit, or "repelling" problems.
<snip>
...I haven't found many Wiccans living the dark side. Dark side being destruction, chaos, repelling, removing, ending, violence, etc.

I know Wiccans who invoke all three of those deities on a regular basis, including ones who are dedicated to them. My working partner was/is extremely fond of Kali. Actually, I find several of the examples you've provided interesting as I wouldn't consider them as either 'negative' or contradicting even a literal interpretation of the rede. In particular, spells to get a destructive person out of your life, and "destructing" a bad habit, problem or illness are something that I perceive as fairly common practices within the community. They're even found in the books of everyone's mother, Silver Ravenwolf (I could go get page references if you'd like) who is hardly the epitome of darkness. Well, excluding the corruption of our youth ;) Destruction, chaos, repelling, removing, ending do not have to be ethically tricky; deliberate destruction of a disease is very different to deliberate destruction of a person. As for living a path of violence, I would say most religions at least nominally object to that.

[Xander67]

Thats interesting Ari

[Myst]

hehe xan

[Xander67]

:p Myst
throws an M&M at yer head LOL

[lucidfire]

It is my opinion, that an evil religion, is the rejection of a legitimate one, intended to manifest as a completely separate entity. Daemonology or something, who knows, the words aren't important.

That's like saying KKK has a right to hang people cuz it's their belief. I don't buy that. It's not like I'm going to do something about it though; strange how things work out, eh? I guess my actions tell a different tale. Hrm..

[Twilight Garden]

Originally posted by lucidfire
That's like saying KKK has a right to hang people cuz it's their belief.I'm sincerely asking a question and not being a smart @55. Does (or did) the KKK consider themselves a religion? Or were they a political activist group? Or something completely different? I was just wondering because I never really thought about them before.

[Myst]

That's a good point. And if they were a religion, saying they're a legitamite religion for those who follow it isn't saying it's ok for them to hang people - hanging people is against human law and is therefore wrong, but even if something some of them do is illegal that doesn't mean the belief is illegitimate. That's like saying one person who calls himself Pagan kills a cat and therefore Paganism is illegitimate :)

[LilydePlume]

and cannot be determined by anyone but the person following that path.
Unless the people who are running the religion are consciously scamming people for donations and are fraudulently operating , then noone can determine legitimacy.
Hate is a subjective emotion, and the satanists have provided an interesting mirror for the christians who purport to hate the devil while
preachihg love to all. So even a religion that supports hate can be "legitimate" . Christianity is a religion that promotes hatred of the devil .
Legitimate doesnt mean the acts performed by the followers are legal within the confines of that society. Some religions still sacrifice animals, while other societies forbid such actions , even performed as a religious act.
Some people judge legitimacy by length of time of existence which is invalid criteria as well.
Some pagan reconstructionists search for validity in historical tradition. Some modern African Americans ;who are celebrating Kwanzaa as we speak ; have created a religion legitmate for THEM,while some people even from within the African American community deride and ridicule and judge their efforts, as ridiculous and "illegitimate".
Some people cannot see beyond themselves, and while they are only too happy to point out what they and them are doing, cannot see that by calling anyone else illegitimate in their religion, they are themselves guilty of what they most deride, and guilty of exactly what they accuse others , by calling any religion illegitimate.
I remember when the term illegitmate applied to a child born out of wedlock, as if somehow that child didnt have a right to the same consderations and priveledges as the "legitimate ones", when ANY child born is a child of the universe, and no one has the right to call them illegitimate. I think the analogy is apt .
BB
LP

[amberlaine]

Originally posted by lucidfire
It is my opinion, that an evil religion, is the rejection of a legitimate one, intended to manifest as a completely separate entity. Daemonology or something, who knows, the words aren't important.

That's like saying KKK has a right to hang people cuz it's their belief. I don't buy that. It's not like I'm going to do something about it though; strange how things work out, eh? I guess my actions tell a different tale. Hrm..

Can you clarify what you're tlaking about? Because I have no idea what you're trying to say. Especially the first paragraph. Demonology isn't even a religion at all--demonology is the study of demons. Has nothing to do with religion.

[Epona44]

:shaker:
This is the sort of discussion that attracts my attention.

Here we go. :lol:

Legitimacy, the key word, actually refers to a child born in wedlock of married parents who bears the name of his father's family. :ack:

In general, it has come to mean "real." :ghost:

Legitimacy describes something that has gained acceptance as a standard by a larger societal group. There are individual standards by which a person :zzz: judges what they will accept as legitimate.

:crylaugh: Religion. (Not a word I'm fond of using.)
A religion is a social structure, usually organized, that attempts to make sense of the non-sense-able. It has leaders, who may or may not be knowledgeable about matters of the non-sense-able and who attempt to teach and offer the comfort of their wisdom.

:ahhhh: The problem however occurs when the leaders and their followers discover their view of the non-sense-able isn't universally accepted.

If they are well-grounded in their belief they aren't threatened by new ideas, but if they are unstable or have doubts, then the new perception of the non-sense-able becomes illegitimate.

As you can see I'm deliberately not refering to any specific group. What I speak of is the human experience, the story of "us and them."

Are all religions legitimate? I think in our cycles of life we experience everything from several angles before we learn and evolve so that we don't have to return to a physical body.

As we learn we begin to make decisions that cause no harm and support life.

Gee, can I prattle or what?

[Myst]

So is that a yes or a no? :rotfl:

[Xander67]

:)



I vote yes!

LOL

[Pheonix]

lol I don'tknow if this will help artimis but I believe all religions are lgitimate. The best way Iknow to explain it sojmething my hubby told me when i was trying(badly) to explain it to him.

Thje divine being, enitity whatever is like a many faceted diamond. What happens is that some of feel that the whole is there and so we understand that all is valid. However even if we fill ti we can't truly comprehend it. Please nbody take offense. If we could properly understand tyhe divine as a whole we would never die nor suffer ect. Than their are others who see only a facet of the diamond. Christianity sees one facet it and calls it the whole, buddists see another facet ect ect. some may see many in detail, but none ever get to truly comprehend the whole.

That is why I feel that all religions are valid. I feel they are all part of the same thing,we just all see different parts of it.

[dragonmagic64]

:evilway:
There is a story of 5 blind yogi's , each holds a part of an elephant.
One holds the trunk
one the leg
one the tail
one the ear
and the last the tusk.
All are trying to explain to the others what the elephant is, by how it feels.
:) the first states that the elephant is long and as big around as a mans leg , and very powerful.
;) the second states that the first is crazy and that this creature while fairly long is as big around as a tree trunk
:p the third screems out the stupidity of the first and second , saying that they have lost thier minds and that the elephant is a small and wispy creature , with an end of a small broom.
:flamer: the fourth can not believe his ears , as the first three are so completly off target, obviously this creature is massive and thin , soft to the touch , and flexable between the fingers. He argues with the other three , to no avail and in desparation turns to the fifth, for varification.
:bug: the fifth is at a loss. As he is conviced the four are beyond all help. this creature is hard as a rock, sharp as a spear, and no thinker then an arm, hooked and long, yes , but smooth .
the five screem and yell , rant and rave, each sure that they are right, no one willing to budge. All knowing that they are right.
:evilway:
And the sixth yogis , who can see , sits on the hill laughing at his hapless brothers, who hear , but don't listen , and refuse to learn past what they KNOW. :ahhhh: :bubbles: :crylaugh:

[Myst]

Evidently Yogis aren't too adept at moving their hands. ;)

[LilydePlume]

makes a wonderful point.
There is another elephant story, about that same elephant , but the yogis are not blind, but blindfolded , and one takes the blindfold off , see the elephant, tells the others, and they kill him .
So the story isnt about "moving your hands " but the entrenchment in your particular belief system , and the "blind" insistence or compulsion or rigidity of being RIGHT.

BB
LP

[Myst]

Good thing some of us get jokes.

[LilydePlume]

LOL

LP
BB

[dragonmagic64]

I guess it should have been five blind chained up yogi's :rotfl: