PDA

View Full Version : God and Goddess



WiccaWanderer
March 24th, 2001, 12:44 PM
HI!

I am relatively new to Wicca and I have a question thats been bugging me for a while and I hope one of you can answer it for me.

Lots of threads I have read say that you should only "accept" the areas of Wicca etc. that you feel comfortable with. I am very uncomfortable with the idea of any sort of God whatever the gender. Seeing as this idea is an integeral part of Wicca does the comfortable "rule" apply to this?

I simply believe there is a natural balance between all of nature. Does this contradict the idea of Wicca?

Sorry if this seems nieve but it is something I have been struggling with and it has really stunted my progression. Thanks a lot.

Ellegon
March 24th, 2001, 12:56 PM
In my opinion, wicca by its definition incorporates a male and female godhead aspect. I personally cannot comprehend being wiccan without having the Goddess present...nor the God. Of, course, however, I am eclectic...therefore, I do believe in and 'look to' any and all entities that can help me with any situation.

WiccaWanderer
March 24th, 2001, 01:05 PM
Thanks for the reply but I would also like some more opinions on this. What you are basically telling me is to give up and go home and I can't accept what you are saying. Fair enough you have your own opinion but does every Wiccan believe this?

Silverwitch
March 24th, 2001, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by WiccaWanderer
HI!

I am relatively new to Wicca and I have a question thats been bugging me for a while and I hope one of you can answer it for me.

Lots of threads I have read say that you should only "accept" the areas of Wicca etc. that you feel comfortable with. I am very uncomfortable with the idea of any sort of God whatever the gender. Seeing as this idea is an integeral part of Wicca does the comfortable "rule" apply to this?

I simply believe there is a natural balance between all of nature. Does this contradict the idea of Wicca?

Sorry if this seems nieve but it is something I have been struggling with and it has really stunted my progression. Thanks a lot.

Hallo WiccaWanderer. The fact that you "believe in a natural balance between all of nature", must mean that you "see"/"feel" the male and female energies that abound in nature. Some people put names and identities to these energies and call them Gods/Goddess. You just haven't formulated identities with these energies, that's all. Maybe you will one day, or maybe you won't feel the need to, either way, your no less a spiritual seeker for all that, who seems to be following the Wiccan Way.

So many traditions overlap or become blurred around the edges, that it's becoming increasingly difficult to put labels on people's beliefs, and perhaps that's a good thing. If you believe in you heart of hearts that you are Wiccan, then you are, and no one can tell you anything different.

eaglewolf
March 24th, 2001, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by WiccaWanderer
What you are basically telling me is to give up and go home ...

WoW...

I don't think that is what Ellegon was saying at all. They were simply offering an opinion, their opinion...

...that is what you are looking for, isn't it?

~ew

Ellegon
March 24th, 2001, 02:06 PM
Let it be said that I agree with both Silverwitch and Eaglewolf...are ye cornfuselled yet?

bluecat
March 24th, 2001, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by WiccaWanderer
Thanks for the reply but I would also like some more opinions on this. What you are basically telling me is to give up and go home and I can't accept what you are saying. Fair enough you have your own opinion but does every Wiccan believe this?

Give up and go home? Nope, keep your beliefs near and dear to you and continue with them. Not everyone has gods or goddesses, I am one of those folks. This does not diminish your beliefs or make them any less than mine, they are different, that's all. There are many fine folks here with beliefs that are generally close to each other, but the specifics are different.

The only advice I really give you is to avoid any belief that says it is the "only" path and has the only answers. that will lead you down a very narrow way that usually has a bad ending. This is my opinion and my belief, you are free to make of it as you will. :)

WiccaWanderer
March 24th, 2001, 03:37 PM
Thanks for the replies I feel much better for hearing the opinions. And sorry if came accross wrong replying to Ellegon's post I didn't mean what I said in a destructive way.

Thanks!

mol
March 24th, 2001, 04:44 PM
Dont jump on my back all of you, but let me enter in another view:

Maybe you are not Wiccan. Maybe you are just following Your Path. You dont have to be a Wiccan to be a Pagan or to follow Your Path.

Now, I am not saying you are NOT a Wiccan. Merely pointing out the option of interpretation.

eaglewolf
March 24th, 2001, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by mol
Dont jump on my back all of you, but let me enter in another view:

How about I just jump on your band wagon...

...and agree.

~ew

bluecat
March 24th, 2001, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by mol
Dont jump on my back all of you, but let me enter in another view:

Maybe you are not Wiccan. Maybe you are just following Your Path. You dont have to be a Wiccan to be a Pagan or to follow Your Path.

Now, I am not saying you are NOT a Wiccan. Merely pointing out the option of interpretation.

Good point, mol.

Steve

Amethyst Rose
March 24th, 2001, 05:54 PM
I can add to this and ask, "what is it that makes a Wiccan a Wiccan, rather than just Pagan??"

Is it the belief in a Goddess/God? Is it the Rede? Is it the 3-fold law?

Not every Wiccan I know believes in a Deity.... I've heard somone call herself an athiestic Wiccan. But I also know a self proclaimed athiestic Jew. So maybe being Wiccan is more about lifestyle -- following the rede, and 3 fold law.
However, I know some Wiccans don't follow the Rede, (some Gardnerian's for example) because their tradition existed before the Rede.

There are so many Wiccan traditions out there, an so many different ways of doing things....however, they must all agree on at least something, otherwise they wouldn't all be Wiccan.

So what is it???

bluecat
March 24th, 2001, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
I can add to this and ask, "what is it that makes a Wiccan a Wiccan, rather than just Pagan??"

Is it the belief in a Goddess/God? Is it the Rede? Is it the 3-fold law?

Not every Wiccan I know believes in a Deity.... I've heard somone call herself an athiestic Wiccan. But I also know a self proclaimed athiestic Jew. So maybe being Wiccan is more about lifestyle -- following the rede, and 3 fold law.

=====================================
However, I know some Wiccans don't follow the Rede, (some Gardnerian's for example) because their tradition existed before the Rede.
=====================================

There are so many Wiccan traditions out there, an so many different ways of doing things....however, they must all agree on at least something, otherwise they wouldn't all be Wiccan.

So what is it???

Erm, Gardenarians did not exist before the Rede ... don't get me started .... Hehehehehehehehehe

Amethyst Rose
March 24th, 2001, 06:34 PM
Yeah.... this is something we could go round and round and round on. I know that there is a lot of controversy about it.
I base my information off of a wonderful site that did extensive research into the Rede. And their conclusion was that the Rede became a Wiccan thing in the 70's when it was published in Green Egg Magazine.
HOWEVER. I realize that many people say that the Rede was written way way way before that.
I don't know, I wasn't there..... I just like to keep it safe and follow the best evidence :).

And yes.... I do know some Gardnerians who do not practice the rede because THEY SAY it wasn't around when they're traditions started.

Again....I dont' know. I wasn't there :)

Here's the site: http://pagan.drak.net/sheathomas/

Amethyst Rose
March 24th, 2001, 06:36 PM
Oh, and taking from your message....

Is it your opinion that it is the Rede which makes a wiccan, Wiccan???

Ellegon
March 24th, 2001, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by WiccaWanderer
Thanks for the replies I feel much better for hearing the opinions. And sorry if came accross wrong replying to Ellegon's post I didn't mean what I said in a destructive way.

Thanks!

The incredible thing that I find is that this is a forum for discussion of everyone's beliefs. WiccaWanderer has opened up an interesting point of view... a respected view I might add. No offense has been taken on my behalf, and I find it rather exhiliarating to be involved in a topic that has generated this much interest.

And Mol brings up a different perspective on the whole deal. I am very interested to see others reactions to this concept, as well...

The bottom line is that whatever gets you to where you feel comforatable in respect to your own faith, is the right path for you...as long as there is no harm to yourself and others, then it must be right.

Ellegon
March 24th, 2001, 06:49 PM
Whether or not you call it the rede, golden rule, three-fold law or personal tenent...does not make a whole lot of difference. Most honorable paths have this concept in one form or another and the meaning is generally the same. Its the quality of your personal faith that is the most important thing to consider...diety or not!

Ans so it goes...

bluecat
March 24th, 2001, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
Oh, and taking from your message....

Is it your opinion that it is the Rede which makes a wiccan, Wiccan???

Oh, By The Heavens, No ... it's just a part of it all ... my path has no such Rede ... we simply believe in simple Karma ... much like the Rede only not in so many words. A lot of this boils down to semantics anyway, except that Karma has no limits on payback ... we believe that the return is in correspondence to what you send, so it could be less than or greater than 3 fold. That does not make me superior or more correct, that is simply part of my path. :)

Steve

WiccaWanderer
March 25th, 2001, 05:19 AM
Wow. I am quite amazed at the many view points being expressed. I never realised that there are so many variations. I come from a christian background and, although not practising it myself, it smacks of strict rules contradications and compramises, where as was we are taling abou here is almost entirely the opposite. I would be interested to hear more views on the previous questions raised in the thread but also on whether or not having so many "varieties" of religeon makes each irrelivant *sp?.

hollymoon
March 25th, 2001, 05:47 AM
Merry Meet All

Can I just say that this discussion is great! It is fantastic to have somwhere to go where ideas are debated!

So here is my contribution - are not the god and godess part of each other, the one not exisiting or having purpose without the other?

So ..... if you accept the goddess you are also accepting the god. Although you may not yet feel his guidance or relevance, it will come. And if it doesn't, I don't think you should feel concerned. Wicca is a supportive and inspirational path to follow and should never make you feel pressured.

Blessed Be

Hollymoon

Mairwen
March 25th, 2001, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by mol
Maybe you are not Wiccan. Maybe you are just following Your Path. You dont have to be a Wiccan to be a Pagan or to follow Your Path.

Go Mol! :D Praise be! I'm happy to be a Gwyddon! :D

That's one of my petpeeves, yanno! Introduce yourself to someone and they automatically think you're Wiccan just because you said, "Pagan". I don't think so! :}

I know what side my Pagan bread is buttered on, yessirreejoebob!

*looking for that coffee cup*

Mairwen
March 25th, 2001, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
However, I know some Wiccans don't follow the Rede, (some Gardnerian's for example) because their tradition existed before the Rede.

Gack! Common theory. Unfortunately, that's a false assumption. (and unfortunately, probably a whole other thread)

bluecat
March 25th, 2001, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Mairwen


Go Mol! :D Praise be! I'm happy to be a Gwyddon! :D

That's one of my petpeeves, yanno! Introduce yourself to someone and they automatically think you're Wiccan just because you said, "Pagan". I don't think so! :}

I know what side my Pagan bread is buttered on, yessirreejoebob!

*looking for that coffee cup*

I have run into that before. Also just because I have this rather large (over 4 inches) tattoo on my left arm they assume I am Wiccan.

Coffee .... mmmmmmmmmmmm .... (even though I am stuck on decaf cuz of my heart, I just get the good decaf) :cool:

Ellegon
March 25th, 2001, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by bluecat


I have run into that before. Also just because I have this rather large (over 4 inches) tattoo on my left arm they assume I am Wiccan.

Coffee .... mmmmmmmmmmmm .... (even though I am stuck on decaf cuz of my heart, I just get the good decaf) :cool:

Awesome Tattoo...nice, very nice...and I can see why peeps assume you are wiccan...but the pentacle covers waaaaayyyy more of paganism than just wicca...I am not wiccan and I have pentacles everywhere...including around my neck...And my marble altar has a large on in the center...

bluecat
March 25th, 2001, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Ellegon


Awesome Tattoo...nice, very nice...and I can see why peeps assume you are wiccan...but the pentacle covers waaaaayyyy more of paganism than just wicca...I am not wiccan and I have pentacles everywhere...including around my neck...And my marble altar has a large on in the center...

Thank You ... it also got the attention of WitchVox, I had asked there permission to use one of their logos as a tattoo and was granted it. I am not sure what Fritz expected but I think he was pleasantly surprised at the result. You can see the little article on one of their archived weekly Home Pages http://www.witchvox.com/homepages/hp_2000/hp_20000619.html

Steve

Silverwitch
March 25th, 2001, 03:49 PM
For anyone interested, I looked up the definition of "Wicca" in the Oxford Concise Dictionary and it says, "WICCA - the cult or practise of witchcraft".

Under "Christianity" is says "A body of people who believe in and follow Jesus Christ".

Both definitions allow for an enormous amount of variation, whilst still retianing the central core. Perhaps this helps !!!!

bluecat
March 25th, 2001, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Silverwitch
For anyone interested, I looked up the definition of "Wicca" in the Oxford Concise Dictionary and it says, "WICCA - the cult or practise of witchcraft".

Under "Christianity" is says "A body of people who believe in and follow Jesus Christ".

Both definitions allow for an enormous amount of variation, whilst still retianing the central core. Perhaps this helps !!!!





The definition is rather incomplete. "Wicca" is a religion that began about 50 or so years ago and witchcraft has been around ever since Lilith. Perhaps if they explored the root word for Wicca meaning "to bend" they would be more complete. Witchcraft is not a religion it is a way of life, Wicca, on the other hand is a religion that embraces Witchcraft at its core.

I do not believe the writers did their homework. Just because it is in a prestigious dictionary does not make it correct.

No worries, this is no reflection on you, Silverwitch, just my semi-humble response.

Steve

mol
March 26th, 2001, 09:02 PM
IMO, the Craft has been around since naked guys were jumping around a fire in the dinosaur days. Some have called it Shamanism. Thats fine. I call it the Craft just the same.

Mairwen
March 26th, 2001, 09:11 PM
oooooooooooohhhhhh

*happynekkidpaganfiredancing!*

Ellegon
March 26th, 2001, 09:23 PM
I'm gonna join Her...^^

hehehehe...

Mairwen
March 26th, 2001, 09:41 PM
:bigredgri:D :bigredgri:D:bigredgri:D
*themorethemerrier!*
:bigredgri:D :bigredgri:D:bigredgri:D

bluecat
March 26th, 2001, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by mol
IMO, the Craft has been around since naked guys were jumping around a fire in the dinosaur days. Some have called it Shamanism. Thats fine. I call it the Craft just the same.

Hehehehehe ... that is some of us mean when we say, "Ever since Lilith." :cool:

Steve

BrightStar
March 27th, 2001, 02:03 AM
Hi all!
I also had a problem,when I first started this path,with identifying with a male deity.It took a while,maybe 6 months or so,to become comfortable with the idea,and I still change the name occasionally.So I wouldn't worry about it.
Brightstar
I

Kalima
March 27th, 2001, 03:43 AM
Uhhh... who says you have to define everything as male/female? *confuzzled* Doesn't anybody else here know about Dianic Wicce?

adrian
March 27th, 2001, 11:56 AM
Greetings all!

This has been going on sence the beginning, we brainwash ourselves into believing something and then we have a hard time breaking the mold.
As we progress in our respective paths we find that we are both male and female, we must embrace the light as well as the dark, and we are capable of the greatest good and the most horendous evil. They are to me, the same. A blending or balance must be acheived if we are to become whole beings of love and light.
bUT tHiS iS JUSt mY rOMAnTic Side tALkINg...

Mariposa De La Luna
March 27th, 2001, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Kalima
Uhhh... who says you have to define everything as male/female? *confuzzled* Doesn't anybody else here know about Dianic Wicce?

I know Dianics that recognize God & Goddess, they also have priests. There are all types.

I'm a seeker and call myself Pagan but follow the Rede and the 3 Fold Law because they are a good start to evolve my own path from. I do not consider my self Wiccan and am still searching for my Goddess and God. I must admit I don't feel the call of the God but that doesn't mean I'll not recognize he exsists or shouldn't be honored. I do believe in balance and equallity.

Silverwitch
March 27th, 2001, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by bluecat


The definition is rather incomplete. "Wicca" is a religion that began about 50 or so years ago and witchcraft has been around ever since Lilith. Perhaps if they explored the root word for Wicca meaning "to bend" they would be more complete. Witchcraft is not a religion it is a way of life, Wicca, on the other hand is a religion that embraces Witchcraft at its core.

I do not believe the writers did their homework. Just because it is in a prestigious dictionary does not make it correct.

No worries, this is no reflection on you, Silverwitch, just my semi-humble response.

Steve

I agree with you completely Bluecat, but my purpose in quoting the dictionary was to show the formal definition of the word Wicca.

As far as I am aware, Wicca as it is known today, was originated with Gerald Gardener in 1946, in the New Forest, England. The definition he gave was that the word "witch" came from the Anglo-Saxon 'wicca' meaning "the wise one"! Doreen Valiente concurred with his definition. Still you pays your money, and takes your choice! :bigredgri Personally, I don't consider myself Wiccan, but have studied it deeply and have lots of friends who are Wiccan, including Doreen when she was alive. They range from strict Gardenerain, through Dianic, via Isis and back again, and practise in as many varied ways as they number. Such is the variety of life, and we would be a poorer world without it. As long as we have tolerance for others views and beliefs, we can't go wrong. :)

Ellegon
March 27th, 2001, 06:38 PM
the last two sentences of your statement ring so true, Silverwitch...well met!

bluecat
March 27th, 2001, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Silverwitch


I agree with you completely Bluecat, but my purpose in quoting the dictionary was to show the formal definition of the word Wicca.

... Such is the variety of life, and we would be a poorer world without it. As long as we have tolerance for others views and beliefs, we can't go wrong. :)

I hope you did not think I was firing a broadside at you, Silverwitch ... I just get kinda "pet-peevey" at how some publishers of dictionaries and encyclopedias have decided to interpret things.

Steve

Silverwitch
March 27th, 2001, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Ellegon
the last two sentences of your statement ring so true, Silverwitch...well met!

Well met to you Ellegon, glad to know you!

Silverwitch
March 27th, 2001, 09:12 PM
I hope you did not think I was firing a broadside at you, Silverwitch ... I just get kinda "pet-peevey" at how some publishers of dictionaries and encyclopedias have decided to interpret things.

Steve [/B][/QUOTE]

Never thought anything of the kind Bluecat. Heaven (whoops wrong description :bigredgri ) forbid!!

I was just trying to give Wiccawanderer some foundations to build from. Let's face it, when your new to Paganism, or inexperienced, it can be an absolute mindfield just learning to question and think for yourself. Particularly as we're all so used to rules, regulations and clear guidelines. I can remember floundering badly in my youth (ahh - so many moons ago) because I couldn't seem to get any clear answers. In the end I began to think it was all a bit wishy washy, that is until I found out where the real information comes from. (Before anyone gets excited thinking 'She Has The Truth', I'm talking about from "within"). From there it was a short step to the Nature of Reality and the serious possibility of a trip to the Funny Farm!! Still not sure it isn't on the cards - now there's a mindfield for you!!! :bigredgri

Ellegon
March 27th, 2001, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Silverwitch


Well met to you Ellegon, glad to know you!

"El gusto, es mio..."

)0(

bluecat
March 27th, 2001, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Silverwitch

Never thought anything of the kind Bluecat. Heaven (whoops wrong description :bigredgri ) forbid!!

I was just trying to give Wiccawanderer some foundations to build from. Let's face it, when your new to Paganism, or inexperienced, it can be an absolute mindfield just learning to question and think for yourself. Particularly as we're all so used to rules, regulations and clear guidelines. I can remember floundering badly in my youth (ahh - so many moons ago) because I couldn't seem to get any clear answers. In the end I began to think it was all a bit wishy washy, that is until I found out where the real information comes from. (Before anyone gets excited thinking 'She Has The Truth', I'm talking about from "within"). From there it was a short step to the Nature of Reality and the serious possibility of a trip to the Funny Farm!! Still not sure it isn't on the cards - now there's a mindfield for you!!! :bigredgri [/B][/QUOTE]

I can sure relate to the minefield part, SHEESH! ... Even though I have witches in my family my teaching was poor because my father married an American-Irish Baptist and all of what I was taught by my aunt was discounted as being evil. Then my Aunt died and the teaching went cold for many many years and I was out there, just drifting along.

I became active on my own again and then one day I started coming across all of these publications and it seemed like everybody and his or her pet parrot had written a book about Witchcraft and they were all more or less saying that they were the authority (with a few exceptions, I did not get that feeling at all from the late Scott Cunningham's books, just his publisher, Llewellyn Press ... LOL :D). Some of those publishers I get pet peevey with are publisher's in "our" corner too who "seem" IMHO, to have gone after the buck and left the spirit in the back room somewhere. Oh, well, they are just trying to make a lving and at least they ARE on our side of it all. :)

But, hey, I'm 47 and I have been steering on a steady course for about 15 years and some days, I still feel a little like my boat is drifting thru a mined harbor full of hungry sharks!

I am thorooghly convinced by all of this that if life was easy it would not be worth a DAMN!

Steve

Silverwitch
March 27th, 2001, 10:03 PM
I can sure relate to the minefield part, SHEESH! ... Even though I have witches in my family my teaching was poor because my father married an American-Irish Baptist and all of what I was taught by my aunt was discounted as being evil. Then my Aunt died and the teaching went cold for many many years and I was out there, just drifting along.

I became active on my own again and then one day I started coming across all of these publications and it seemed like everybody and his or her pet parrot had written a book about Witchcraft and they were all more or less saying that they were the authority (with a few exceptions, I did not get that feeling at all from the late Scott Cunningham's books, just his publisher, Llewellyn Press ... LOL :D). Some of those publishers I get pet peevey with are publisher's in "our" corner too who "seem" IMHO, to have gone after the buck and left the spirit in the back room somewhere. Oh, well, they are just trying to make a lving and at least they ARE on our side of it all. :)

But, hey, I'm 47 and I have been steering on a steady course for about 15 years and some days, I still feel a little like my boat is drifting thru a mined harbor full of hungry sharks!

I am thorooghly convinced by all of this that if life was easy it would not be worth a DAMN!

Steve [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, but it could be easy just once in a while! - LOL :bigredgri

bluecat
March 27th, 2001, 10:11 PM
Yes, Silverwitch, it would be easy to have a nice patch!

Steve

Kalima
March 28th, 2001, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by adrian

As we progress in our respective paths we find that we are both male and female, we must embrace the light as well as the dark, and we are capable of the greatest good and the most horendous evil. They are to me, the same. A blending or balance must be acheived if we are to become whole beings of love and light.
bUT tHiS iS JUSt mY rOMAnTic Side tALkINg...

:)
I do recognise the God as a Being, but I choose not to work with him or His energies, adrian.
And IMO, 'brainwashed' is what people are when they talk about 'male and female energies/sides' -- I don't see any reason why energies or attributes have to be specifically male or female. And I'm actually a bit of a fan of destruction and shadow ;)
But hey, that's just me!

adrian
March 29th, 2001, 12:35 AM
Greetings Kalima!
May we walk in light.
As free beings of light we are free to choose our paths and the way we choose to worship or see the supreme
being, our opinions are ours to share with others of like mind and to be openminded of others beliefs when we tread upon that entitys belief we take something from them and cause harm.
I choose the light at the moment of birth and like your
destruction, it too serves its purpose.
In Peace Kalima

Kalima
March 29th, 2001, 06:51 AM
No offence taken nor meant by the last post, adrian;

Take my title as a Truth ;)

I'm feeling rather random today!

adrian
March 29th, 2001, 08:38 AM
I am happy you are not offended so many of us take things personal at times...but i welcome any exchange of a spiritual nature, this is how we grow into understanding of each other.
embracing the night
and living in light.