Judeo-phobia in history

[David19]

I meant to say this in the other thread i created but i forgot, also it's more general. Why do you think there has been a lot of Judeo-phobia throughout history even before the holocaust. I've been wondering about this ever since i started my Holocaust lecture. Since all throughout history, there's been anti-Semitism/Judeophobia like in Roman times, the temple was burned down (i'm not sure how well the Romans got on with the Jews, if someone knows, please feel free to say), the Greeks, i've heard persecuted them some of the time, in Ancient Egypt, they were enslaved, the Church killed them during the inquisition, crusades and basically anytime (which is ironic, since Yahweh, Mary, Jesus, etc are all Jewish).

Also on some pagan sites, i've seen some anti-Semitic comments like saying they left christianity because they don't want to worship a Jew or other things like that.

Anyway what are your thoughts.

[Xentor]

Please check out these recent articles about antisemitism:
http://www.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Anti_Semitism_Global/global-anti-semitsm-op-01052005.htm
http://www.adl.org/ADL_Opinions/Anti_Semitism_Global/20050610-ynetnews.com.htm

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, claims to be
the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

[BlueMoon13]

Yup, "blame the Jews" has been the world's default position for eons:aburst: .

[Choro's Mom]

I meant to say this in the other thread i created but i forgot, also it's more general. Why do you think there has been a lot of Judeo-phobia throughout history even before the holocaust. I've been wondering about this ever since i started my Holocaust lecture. Since all throughout history, there's been anti-Semitism/Judeophobia like in Roman times, the temple was burned down (i'm not sure how well the Romans got on with the Jews, if someone knows, please feel free to say), the Greeks, i've heard persecuted them some of the time, in Ancient Egypt, they were enslaved, the Church killed them during the inquisition, crusades and basically anytime (which is ironic, since Yahweh, Mary, Jesus, etc are all Jewish).

Also on some pagan sites, i've seen some anti-Semitic comments like saying they left christianity because they don't want to worship a Jew or other things like that.

Anyway what are your thoughts.

You need to make a distinction between national issues, as with the Romans, and anti-Jewish attitudes based on religious differences.

The "enslavement" in Egypt was likely a reaction to a "foreign" people which might ally with enemies of Egypt. The time frame is right for Joseph to have been a governor under a Hyksos ruler (c.1600BCE); the new king who "knew not Joseph" was likely the return of an Egyptian ruler. And the people at that point were not "Jews"; they were simply the members of the tribes of Jacob, the descendants of the sons who had come to Egypt when there was famine in Canaan.

The Roman (Babylonian, Assyrian) concern was a large, powerful empire trying to conquer or control the region that is the land bridge between Asia and Africa. Rome didn't care what Jewish beliefs were; they just didn't want rebellion. The destruction of the Temple wasn't about "anti-Jewish" feelings at all; following the destruction, Vespasian gave Yochanan ben Zakkai permission to continue the school at Yavne. And Hillel, one of the greatest and most influential of all Jewish sages, lived in Judea under Roman rule. The Romans wanted quiet in their borders; they suppressed the Judeans because the Judeans were in open rebellion.

Christianity introduces a whole new dimension. In reaching out to the gentiles, Christianity went from being universalist in accepting everyone into the faith, to demanding that everyone accept Christianity. It was no longer acceptable to follow other faiths. And the now-dominant Christians harbored a special resentment against the Jews: Jews, after all, had the first, most direct contact with Jesus, and they had rejected him in favor of the older faith! For that, Jews would suffer for the next two millennia.

I suspect that the neo-pagan anti-Jewish attitudes are simply a hangover from former Christians. For most of Christian history, Jews have been vilified in every manner imaginable and murdered in a variety of hideous ways, all for the rejection of Jesus as Savior and adherence to the faith of Moses. Without the long history of Christian hatred of Jews, the Holocaust would never have been possible.

Modern Jew-hating and Jew-baiting is a whole other issue, but historically, overwhelmingly, the reason is Christian anger over Jewish refusal to accept Christianity.

[Tulip Tree]

Modern Jew-hating and Jew-baiting is a whole other issue, but historically, overwhelmingly, the reason is Christian anger over Jewish refusal to accept Christianity.I think you're forgetting that anti-semitism is a pre-Christian phenomena. The Romans were frustrated by the Jewish refusal to roll over during the occupation. I can't remember the exact quote from the time... but the Jewish refusal to act like a defeated nation led to their ultimate defeat and dispersion. Historically, the Jewish people are a stubborn, unwavering people.

This could be partly because the Jewish people definitely followed a "my way or else" kind of God. Their myths and history repeat over and over again the consequences of displeasing YHWH. As a generality, the Jewish people are tough, disciplined, organized and loyal. They refuse to assimilate into the cultures around them with a stubborn tenacity. The Roman's noted it, and nations throughout history have noted it.

Let's compare the west's interaction with the Jewish people to the west's interactions with the Japanese. The Japanese are not Christian either and many don't accept Christ, yet still the Japanese are admired and accepted in the West. Like the Jewish people they are tough, disciplined and organized. But they assimilate. They have no problems with Christmas trees, have adopted the format of Christian weddings and will laugh with us over our differences.

You can see that I think the prejudice against Jewish peoples is caused by their refusal to accept other traditions while in foreign lands. It doesn't help that their communities are successfull thanks to cultural values of hard work and and loyalty. If the Jewish people showed more outward sympathy and acceptance of local traditions, then the host country would feel less threatened, as we have seen with the Japanese. Interestingly, there is a similar uproar over Islamic immigration into western countries. The Islamic refusal to assimilate in host countries is causing enormous problems and suspicion.

I'm not saying that the explosive reactions of the west have been justified, just that I can see why this one culture would run into problems again and again. Christians have enfuriated people as well with their lack of assimilation but they began their outward expansion on the back of Rome and, at least so far, Christians have come into foreign countries as conquerers not immigrants. Christians also tend to follow the Roman idea that if the people around them at least adapt some of Christianity into their belief systems, then they will be considered Christians. Judaism is much more complicated. It's not just a nation, it's a religion. It's not just a religion, it's a tribe. It's not just a tribe, it's a family. Exclusive, disciplined, successful even when you give them basicly nothing to start with. Oh, so scary.

[Choro's Mom]

I think you're forgetting that anti-semitism is a pre-Christian phenomena. The Romans were frustrated by the Jewish refusal to roll over during the occupation. I can't remember the exact quote from the time... but the Jewish refusal to act like a defeated nation led to their ultimate defeat and dispersion. Historically, the Jewish people are a stubborn, unwavering people.

But that's my point: that wasn't because they were "Jews"; it's because they were a province that refused to submit to the Pax Romana. It had nothing to do with a refusal to follow a certain religion; it had everything to do with open armed rebellion.


This could be partly because the Jewish people definitely followed a "my way or else" kind of God. Their myths and history repeat over and over again the consequences of displeasing YHWH. As a generality, the Jewish people are tough, disciplined, organized and loyal. They refuse to assimilate into the cultures around them with a stubborn tenacity. The Roman's noted it, and nations throughout history have noted it.

And yet they didn't demand that OTHERS follow their laws. Again, the Roman (and other empires) weren't concerned with the refusal to assimilate; they were concerned with open, armed rebellion.


Let's compare the west's interaction with the Jewish people to the west's interactions with the Japanese. The Japanese are not Christian either and many don't accept Christ, yet still the Japanese are admired and accepted in the West.

1. The Japanese until very, very recently in history had little to no contact with Europe (America itself is very young; I'm not considering America prior to the 1900s). When it did, it was Europeans (English, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese) sailing to the Far East, not the Japanese coming to Europe.

2. The Japanese were a POWERFUL regional force, not a small, scattered minority.

3. When the Japanese began to immigrate to this country, there was enormous prejudice against them.

IOW, Christian Europe doesn't have 2000 years of history with the Japanese.


You can see that I think the prejudice against Jewish peoples is caused by their refusal to accept other traditions while in foreign lands.

I think it's the refusal of other lands to allow Jews to continue to be Jews!! Sure, if Jews had adopted other faiths, other practices, they wouldn't have faced persecution. AND IN TWO GENERATIONS THEY'D HAVE DISAPPEARED. The reason Jews still EXIST is because for 2000 years we have REMAINED JEWS.

Don't you see what you're SAYING? "Stop being JEWS and then people won't hate you." Thanks a heap.


It doesn't help that their communities are successfull thanks to cultural values of hard work and and loyalty. If the Jewish people showed more outward sympathy and acceptance of local traditions, then the host country would feel less threatened, as we have seen with the Japanese.

Have you noticed that there is still a country called Japan? Where the Japanese do NOT follow Western religious and cultural practices?

Japanese immigrants DO assimilate. Japanese living in the US DO adopt "American" practices. And guess what? In a few generations, they will no longer be Japanese. They won't speak the language, they won't follow the traditions, they won't LOOK Japanese, due to intermarriage.

But there is still Japan. Japanese language, culture, custom, PEOPLE will still exist, because in JAPAN they don't have to blend in with other cultures.

For 2000 years, there WAS no Jewish state. There WAS no place to keep Judaism and the Jewish people alive. Only by clinging to our beliefs, to our customs, to our faith, could we continue to exist at all.


Interestingly, there is a similar uproar over Islamic immigration into western countries. The Islamic refusal to assimilate in host countries is causing enormous problems and suspicion.

It's not about refusal to assimilate, it's about TERRORIST ATTACKS!


I'm not saying that the explosive reactions of the west have been justified, just that I can see why this one culture would run into problems again and again. Christians have enfuriated people as well with their lack of assimilation but they began their outward expansion on the back of Rome and, at least so far, Christians have come into foreign countries as conquerers not immigrants. Christians also tend to follow the Roman idea that if the people around them at least adapt some of Christianity into their belief systems, then they will be considered Christians.

Yeah, right. Adopt "some" of Christianity? Can you say "forced conversions"? Can you say "burned at the stake"? Christianity has a long, bitter history of SAVAGE intolerance of other beliefs. In Russia, good grief, the Old Believers (Russian Orthodox) were SLAUGHTERED by the "new" Orthodox because they refused to adopt the reforms of the Orthodox Church, and they were the SAME faith!!


Judaism is much more complicated. It's not just a nation, it's a religion. It's not just a religion, it's a tribe. It's not just a tribe, it's a family.

AND THAT IS THE POINT.

It's not just about "belief"; it's a FAMILY. It's an IDENTITY.

And what you are advocating is that we abandon our family. "Just quit being Jews and everything will be fine."

I am reminded of the parable told by Rabbi Akiva when the Romans banned study of the Torah. Rabbi Akiva lived during the period when the Romans had forbidden Torah study, seeing is as a way for Jews to rally against Rome. Despite the ban, Rabbi Akiva continued his studies (he was eventually captured and executed by the Romans). When asked by his students why he took such a risk, he replied, "A clever fox offered a fish a wonderful proposal: 'Come onto land and you will be saved from the fisherman's net!' The fish responded, 'While in the water, there is a possibility that I may live by evading the fisherman's net. However, on land I am sure to die.' Without the Torah, we too cannot survive."

Ceasing to be Jews would, perhaps, end anti-Semitism. This is not a solution.

[MelMullooly]

Without the Torah, we too cannot survive."

Ceasing to be Jews would, perhaps, end anti-Semitism. This is not a solution.[/QUOTE]




I agree 100% good point & good topic

[Tulip Tree]

And what you are advocating is that we abandon our family. "Just quit being Jews and everything will be fine."I am advocating no such thing. I am not in favor of people giving up their identities and cultures. I only point out why those who have a tendancy to feel fearful, who are the type to place blame, and ostracize, would do so again and again with the Jewish people.

It does not good to ask "why" over and over again and not look honestly at the roles that culture and religion play. You seem to want to blame Christianity as if without Christianity, the Jewish people wouldn't have had any troubles. You say that Christians say convert or else? At least they allow conversion. Look honestly at the history of Judaism and tell me again that the Jewish people were not feared for a reason. That's like saying the Celts, the Zulus and the Sioux were just victims of a misinformation campaign. The Jewish people are proud for a reason, it's a successful culture but as you so eloquently point out, a successful culture does not lose it's identity. I also say, a successful culture does not survive without shedding blood. It's a sad truth because this is a violent world. You know what? The Jewish people aren't innocents in crowd of evil-doers. They are simply on equal footing.

As for as terrorism and Islam goes. What has been happening in the countries with large influxes of Islamic immigrants has nothing to do with terrorism. It has more to do with people whose concepts of purity clashes with our own. There is prejudice, there is discomfort, there is fear. If there was no terrorism, if there was no 9/11, people would still be upset by Burka's and the constant accusations of impurity, the hatred and distrust of music for entertainment and the Islamic refusal to share a toast.

[Tulip Tree]

But that's my point: that wasn't because they were "Jews"; it's because they were a province that refused to submit to the Pax Romana. It had nothing to do with a refusal to follow a certain religion; it had everything to do with open armed rebellion.Actually, I think the Jewish people were having trouble finding acceptance in Pagan Rome. That old "there is One God and you are all wrong" thing.
And yet they didn't demand that OTHERS follow their laws. Yes, those others were simply not allowed to assimilate, except I think, by marriage. Which meant they were always outsiders and unclean. Interestingly, I think that some of the laws that would apply within Judaism, that is, within the tribe, would not apply outside of it. This is an unpleasant truth and I'm sure it was a technicality in the law only pressed by unscrupulous people. To say that the Jewish people have never practiced injustice themselves is just wrong. It sets the Jewish people wrongly above the rest of us in scruples and decency.

[Choro's Mom]

I am advocating no such thing. I am not in favor of people giving up their identities and cultures. I only point out why those who have a tendancy to feel fearful, who are the type to place blame, and ostracize, would do so again and again with the Jewish people.

It does not good to ask "why" over and over again and not look honestly at the roles that culture and religion play. You seem to want to blame Christianity as if without Christianity, the Jewish people wouldn't have had any troubles.

Not nearly what we've had because of Christianity. Christianity systematically taught hatred of Jews for 1500 years. The conflicts with the other empires were just that: conflicts with other rising empires seeking to control the region. The Purim story aside (it's a STORY; it's not historical reality), Jews did quite well in Babylon.

You want to look "honestly" at Jewish-Christian relations, you have to acknowledge the role of Christianity in fomenting anti-Jewish attitudes.

Jewish-Christian Relations :: A Short Review of a Troubled History
http://www.jcrelations.net/en/?id=836


You say that Christians say convert or else? At least they allow conversion.

So does Judaism. Are you unaware of that? However, Judaism does not SEEK converts nor ENCOURAGE conversion, because Judaism does not have the concept of the "one, true faith" which God wants EVERYONE to follow. Judaism is a tribal religion. It is the religion of the Jewish people, the "Children of Israel." Other peoples are NOT commanded to worship as we do; other peoples are NOT expected to follow the Torah. What would the point be in seeking converts? There is no special merit for non-Jews in following Jewish beliefs and practices.


Look honestly at the history of Judaism and tell me again that the Jewish people were not feared for a reason.

Oh, PLEASE. WHAT REASON??

By the time Christianity rose as a dominant religion, Jews were a TINY, tiny minority scattered across three continents. No political power. No military power. PLEASE tell me exactly WHY Christians had ANYTHING to fear from Jews??


That's like saying the Celts, the Zulus and the Sioux were just victims of a misinformation campaign.

Every one of the above were strong militarily; were, in essence, WARRIOR cultures. I ask again, just WHY would the Jewish communities, scattered among the nations, be feared?


The Jewish people are proud for a reason, it's a successful culture but as you so eloquently point out, a successful culture does not lose it's identity. I also say, a successful culture does not survive without shedding blood.

Please tell me what blood Jews shed from the time of the final Roman conquest (135CE) until the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. What kind of ludicrous calumny is this??


It's a sad truth because this is a violent world.

No, it's a nonsensical and meaningless statement which contributes nothing whatsoever to understanding history. And there is not a scrap of historical backing to show that Jews as a group have "survived" by shedding blood. WHOSE? WHERE? WHEN?


You know what? The Jewish people aren't innocents in crowd of evil-doers. They are simply on equal footing.

CITE EXAMPLES. Not of individual wrongdoing; every culture, every group, has its bad apples. But CITE EXAMPLES in the last 2000 years of Jews, as a group, carrying out massacres.

There aren't any. Not so much because Jews are so wonderful and noble, but because Jews have not had the military and political power to do such things.


As for as terrorism and Islam goes. What has been happening in the countries with large influxes of Islamic immigrants has nothing to do with terrorism. It has more to do with people whose concepts of purity clashes with our own. There is prejudice, there is discomfort, there is fear. If there was no terrorism, if there was no 9/11, people would still be upset by Burka's and the constant accusations of impurity, the hatred and distrust of music for entertainment and the Islamic refusal to share a toast.

There is a difference between being "upset" and being afraid of a suicide bomber. If there was no terrorism, if there had been no 9/11, Muslims would just be another "odd" group: OK, weird customs, oh well, not so different from the Amish. (Share a TOAST? WHO CARES? I don't drink because I don't like any alcohol; so I "toast" with soda. Sheesh. But yes, the accusations of impurity would get on people's nerves; again, difference between doing things your own way and castigating everyone else for not doing it that way, no?)

Once more: please explain what, exactly, ANY nation had to fear from Jews since the final destruction of Judea by the Romans? You made what amounts to an accusation: Jews are feared for a REASON. WHAT IS THAT REASON? Simply being "different," having different beliefs, different customs — you equate that with the Zulu warriors? With the Sioux warriors? WHAT did any culture, any nation, have to fear from the tiny number of Jews in the population?

[Tulip Tree]

You can't compare Islam to the Amish. The Amish keep themselves separate from the society at large. It's difficult to see tham as a threat. Islamic people integrate into society without assimilating, which makes them seem threatening.

You want to draw a big line between Jewish military power and life after the final Roman conquest? Fine. Let's pretend that the Jewish people never had power and ignore what they did with it. When they were a military power, they did slaughter people who lived on the land they wanted. That does not make them unique or evil, just unfortunatley, like everyone else. We'll move right on to the point of them being homeless wandering victims.

David asked a question about prejudice. I know you'll take this personally yourself and assume that I approve of my own conclusions, but whatever. Jewish people commit two "crimes" when they settle in a country (notice that the word "crimes" are in italics because I don't consider them crimes myself) 1. They don't assimilate. 2. They are successful thanks to a culture that values hard work and discipline.

Are you really so innocent to think that the prejudice is about religion and not power. You think that if Christianity had never taken hold, then the Jewish people wouldn't have any problems? What does denying Jewish people the right to own land have to do with religion? Nothing. It has to do with the perception that if you give Jewish people a small foothold they will own everything. That is not my perception, but it was a common fear.

You say that Jewish people have not been responsible for massacres since the Roman Conquest? Agreed. However, they have not been without power and wealth. Just as a French Jew or German Jew could see that they were being mistreated based on their Jewishness, their non-Jewish counterparts complained of prejudice and mistreatment in areas were Jewish people held the most power. I say complained because I don't know the reality. I do know, as I said, that some of the moral laws we equate with Jewish people simply did not apply to treatment of people outside the tribe. There were accusations on both sides, probably rightly, and a sincere and intense competition.

Again, it's not just that the Jewish were successful. It's not just that they didn't assimilate. It's both together. If you want to say that means I think they should either assimilate or die off, whatever. I'm just pointing out the origins of prejudice, not excusing it.

[Tulip Tree]

Well, Choro's Mom, I just read a huge amount of material on the history of Judaism in Europe and on certain points I concede and on others I don't.

It's difficult to read because time after time you can see the Jewish people being uprooted and thrown out of countries, usually after periods of great success. This comes back to my idea that it is success and separateness that makes their fellow-countrymen freak out, especially when things start taking a downward turn for the country in general.

The horrors of Eastern Europe are difficult to revisit. Here, I really believe it's because impoverished countries are especially violent towards competing outsiders.

The difficulty with writing any of this is that we keep coming back to generalities and vast time periods and fluctuations European culture. Generalities are just as much at fault as fear in creating prejudices. Were all Jewish people successful even while working under persecuting laws? No. Were all Jewish unwilling to assimilate to a certain degree. No. Did all Christians hate Jews. No. If they did there wouldn't have been so many laws about intermarrying. Were all Christians unwilling to accomodate the Jewish religion. No.

So, back and forth across history the Jewish people have been accepted and allowed to thrive and then cut back again. Usually the cutting takes place in times of crisis: war, disease, invasion. This is when people look amongst themselves for the outsider... and guess what? Judaism is usually the largest minority religion / culture in any country. Guess what again? While maintaining their separateness they still found a way to participate in society. Not like the Amish, not quaint, but easy suspects for suspicious minds.

Did Christianity play a role? Yes, how can it not when prejudice is institionalized. But judging by the difficulties pre-Christianity, I still think that the Jewish people would have difficulties because they see themselves as outsiders in the cultures in which they live and retain their seperatness with pride. So, while the Jewish people may not invite prejudice intentionally, their way of life will always include it.

[David19]

Thanks for some of the replies, there very interesting. I've got another question i wanted to add and instead of making a new thread, i thought i'd post it here. Does anyone know what the Hebrews were taken as slaves in Egypt?. It's just it's an interest that i have and i'd like to know what their life was like in Egypt. I've heard lots of things, that they were mistreated to they lived well until a pharoah grew fearful of them. I also heard that they lived in Northern Egypt and grew powerful that they outnumbered egyptians then some Pharoah decided to put a stop to it and taxed them heavily.

Also does anyone know if they ever worshipped any of the Egyptian gods? since i know Yahweh likes to be worshipped first plus i think i read that the Jews didn't find Yahweh until the Exodus or something and also their original religion was polytheistic.

Anyway i hope that made sense and thanks.

[Choro's Mom]

For reasons I can't quite fathom, this post initially got posted, and then vanished into the ether:


You can't compare Islam to the Amish. The Amish keep themselves separate from the society at large. It's difficult to see tham as a threat. Islamic people integrate into society without assimilating, which makes them seem threatening.

No, they're threatening because they're THREATENING. As in bombs.


You want to draw a big line between Jewish military power and life after the final Roman conquest? Fine. Let's pretend that the Jewish people never had power and ignore what they did with it. When they were a military power, they did slaughter people who lived on the land they wanted.

That was over 2500 years ago. And no, in fact, they did not "slaughter" the people who lived on the land; they fought against them, and those peoples fought back. Eventually the Israelite tribes controlled the area that is now most of modern Israel and some of the east bank of the Jordan. But there was no widespread "fear" of the "Jews"; the "Jews" (Judeans) and the "Israelites" (the Northern Kingdom) were just one of the numerous nation-states in the region. Even the "Golden Age" of David and Solomon only came about because the BIG powers were either in decline (Egypt) or not yet in power (Assyria); the kingdom of David and Solomon was never anything close to the scope of Assyria.

And that does not explain at ALL why the EUROPEANS, who had NO contact with Jews until long after the Roman conquest, should "fear" Jews so much.


What does denying Jewish people the right to own land have to do with religion?

It has to do with the Christian teaching that Jews were condemned to wander the earth (the myth of the "Wandering Jew") for the sin of rejecting Jesus.


Nothing. It has to do with the perception that if you give Jewish people a small foothold they will own everything. That is not my perception, but it was a common fear.

It's a fear that has NO basis AT ALL in any factual reality. And again, much of the fear comes directly from Christian preaching.


You say that Jewish people have not been responsible for massacres since the Roman Conquest? Agreed. However, they have not been without power and wealth. Just as a French Jew or German Jew could see that they were being mistreated based on their Jewishness, their non-Jewish counterparts complained of prejudice and mistreatment in areas were Jewish people held the most power.

WHERE DID JEWS HOLD ANY POWER IN EUROPE PRIOR TO THE EMANCIPATION UNDER NAPOLEAN?


I say complained because I don't know the reality.

You're right: you don't know the reality and you don't know the history.

Jews were subject to special taxes. To expulsions. To forced conversions. To MASSACRES. Did you even LOOK at that website? At the list of restrictions and persecutions?


I do know, as I said, that some of the moral laws we equate with Jewish people simply did not apply to treatment of people outside the tribe. There were accusations on both sides, probably rightly, and a sincere and intense competition.

Again, it's not just that the Jewish were successful. It's not just that they didn't assimilate. It's both together. If you want to say that means I think they should either assimilate or die off, whatever. I'm just pointing out the origins of prejudice, not excusing it.

And you're wrong. You're completely ignoring INTENSE Christian teaching to HATE JEWS. Not because of competition, not because of a refusal to "assimilate," but because of a refusal to ACCEPT JESUS as the Messiah.

Jewish-Christian Relations :: A Short Review of a Troubled History
http://www.jcrelations.net/en/?id=836

200 CE
When emperor Severus created laws forbidding heathens, under penalty of severe punishment, to embrace Judaism, the Bishop of Alexandria, Origen, wrote: "We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming the conspiracy against the Savior of the human race ... Hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people [meaning the church] was called by God to the blessed election."

300 CE
Eusebius, Bishop of Caesaria, claimed that Jews in every community crucified a Christian at their Purim festival as a rejection of Jesus. He used the charge of ritual murder made by the pagans Democritus and Apion, which the Romans had first made against the early Christians. Eusebius made a distinction between Hebrews who were good men in the Old Testament and Jews whom he characterized as evil.

367–376 CE
St. Hilary of Poitiers wrote and spoke of the Jews as a perverse people forever accursed by God. St. Ephroem refers in his hymns to synagogues as whorehouses.

379–395 CE
St. John Chrysostom: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men… They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the devil, their religion is a sickness…" St. Gregory of Nyssa characterized Jews as "assassins of the prophets, companions of the devil, a race of vipers, a sanhedrin of demons, enemies of all that is beautiful, hogs and goats in their lewd grossness."

415 CE
St. Cyril, the Bishop of Alexandria, incited a mob against the Jews and had them expelled. Bishop Severus burned a synagogue and incited people to attack and harass Jews in the streets. Many Jews converted to Christianity out of fear.
St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo: "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

418 CE
Bishop Severus of Majorca forced Jews to convert. Violent street fighting broke out with a mob incited by the bishop. The synagogue was burnt. Finally the leaders of the Jewish community gave in and 540 Jews were converted.
St. Jerome, who had studied with Jewish scholars in Palestine and translated the Bible into Latin (the Vulgate), wrote about the synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."

Are you getting the picture here? Not power. Not lack of assimilation. Not competition. RELIGIOUS HATRED. Hatred of Jews because Jews REJECTED Jesus.

This is something the Christian world needs to come to terms with. Because the core of anti-Jewish sentiment comes from the religious beliefs. The discrimination and persecution led to Jews being involved with money-lending (one of the few occupations open), which led to resentment and "fear" of Jewish control of money, but the root of the hatred is the fury at Jewish refusal to accept Jesus. Take that away, and you unravel the entire tapestry of hatred.

[Choro's Mom]

Thanks for some of the replies, there very interesting. I've got another question i wanted to add and instead of making a new thread, i thought i'd post it here. Does anyone know what the Hebrews were taken as slaves in Egypt?. It's just it's an interest that i have and i'd like to know what their life was like in Egypt. I've heard lots of things, that they were mistreated to they lived well until a pharoah grew fearful of them. I also heard that they lived in Northern Egypt and grew powerful that they outnumbered egyptians then some Pharoah decided to put a stop to it and taxed them heavily.

Also does anyone know if they ever worshipped any of the Egyptian gods? since i know Yahweh likes to be worshipped first plus i think i read that the Jews didn't find Yahweh until the Exodus or something and also their original religion was polytheistic.

Anyway i hope that made sense and thanks.

Well, first thing is to realize just how widespread "slavery" was at the time.

This is not hauling the Hebrew tribes from somewhere else and selling them off to the Egyptians; remember that the tribes had migrated from Canaan at the time of Joseph, because there was famine in Canaan and there was food stored in Egypt.

If you read Egyptian history, you will see that for a period of about one hundred years, from around 1670BCE to around 1560BCE, when Egypt was ruled by the Hyksos, a Semitic tribe from Canaan. It is entirely possible that this is the period when Joseph and his family migrated to Egypt, where a government would be friendly to others from the same region, and that Joseph was a governor under the Hyksos rulers.

With the defeat of the Hyksos and the return of Egyptian rulers, those who had been in favor under the Hyksos were now on the outs. It makes perfect sense for the new king ("who knew not Joseph") to worry that these "foreigners" might, should the Hyksos try for a return, aid the enemies of Egypt.

The slavery itself was likely more a kind of corvee labor: people being required to work on specific projects in addition to their own work (farming and animal husbandry). While I'm sure it wasn't fun and games, obviously they did manage to survive and even thrive. And I doubt whether they were treated significantly worse than any other group of forced laborers.

When the tribes left Egypt, they didn't flee in the night (if the Biblical account has any accuracy at all); they left at noon, and they took with them their own servants (slaves), their animals, alltheir possessions — including a substantial amount of gold and precious stones and metals from their erstwhile "masters": a sort of payoff for the years of "enslavement."

Monotheism begins with Abraham; the Abramic faith was centered on one god, "El," "El Shaddai," etc. The YHVH first appears in Bereshit (Genesis) 2:4, but that doesn't mean that all of the Hebrews were solidly monotheistic. Clearly some DID worship other gods (and even more clearly, they acknowledged that others did so and did not try to dissuade them from it); that's what the whole "golden calf" episode is about.

Hope that helps some :graduate:

One book I strongly recommend on early Jewish history (Abraham to the Second Temple) is Ancient Israel edited by Hershel Shanks. Good, solid info without a lot of religious layering.

[Tulip Tree]

No, they're threatening because they're THREATENING. As in bombs.THEY (Islamics) are not ALL threatening. Actually, that type of speach is cruel and spreads hatred which leads to the types of events that happened in Austrialia recently.


That was over 2500 years ago. And no, in fact, they did not "slaughter" the people who lived on the land;I'm sorry, I didn't realize that slaughtering every man, woman, and child and then giving pseudo-religious reasons for doing so, such as "purity", was war. Silly me, I've always thought of war as fighting until a region was conquered, not about the culling of human impurities to please your god.


And that does not explain at ALL why the EUROPEANS, who had NO contact with Jews until long after the Roman conquest, should "fear" Jews so much.And again, and again, ad nauseum... because they were different, because they were reluctant to invite others into their culture yet refused to assimilate into someone elses, and because they didn't separate themselves but integrated into society. You have said that the Jewish people accept conversion... you left out reluctantly because the Jewish people do discourage conversion. Especially back in the "day" that you so fondly dwell in, most Jewish people must have known to be Jewish meant much more than just following a religion, it was a matriarchal line of heredity.

I don't know how you can think a propaganda campaign of hatred can work so well if there wasn't already fear to start with.


It has to do with the Christian teaching that Jews were condemned to wander the earth (the myth of the "Wandering Jew") for the sin of rejecting Jesus.That's a conveniant myth to fit the circumstances and perhaps a perversion of the reasons the Jewish felt themselves to be wanderers. What works with propaganda we use. Afterall Saddam Hussein had WMDs and was best pals with Osama and facts don't matter because they all wear towels and ride camels. The real answer is politics and having foreign people in your land who successfully maintain their separatism, who may or may not be loyal to the local lords and king and must not be allowed to hold land lest they gain more power and influence. Europe has always been a place of unrest itself, never mind all this talk about how crazy the Middle East it, and each Kingdom was constantly concerned with spies and invasion.


WHERE DID JEWS HOLD ANY POWER IN EUROPE PRIOR TO THE EMANCIPATION UNDER NAPOLEAN?I hate to bring up banking because banking is one of the sources of all those loony conspiracy theories. But, usury was one of the professions the Jewish people were allowed to follow. Money is power, it's a foothold.


You're right: you don't know the reality and you don't know the history. Jews were subject to special taxes. To expulsions. To forced conversions. To MASSACRES. Did you even LOOK at that website? At the list of restrictions and persecutions?I know more of the history than you give me credit for, I know about the "list" and it is nauseating and sad, but I'm not going to look at your websites, anymore than I'm going to go to Jerry Fallwell to find out about current events.


And you're wrong. You're completely ignoring INTENSE Christian teaching to HATE JEWS. Not because of competition, not because of a refusal to "assimilate," but because of a refusal to ACCEPT JESUS as the Messiah.And you ignore how convenientaly people ignore religious teaching when it disagrees with their own reality.

[Choro's Mom]

THEY (Islamics) are not ALL threatening. Actually, that type of speach is cruel and spreads hatred which leads to the types of events that happened in Austrialia recently.

Obviously they're not. But good grief, look around: look at the number of terrorist incidents internationally (and I'm not even counting in Israel), even in ARAB countries! Who is doing these things? Norwegians trying to coerce people into eating more herring??


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that slaughtering every man, woman, and child and then giving pseudo-religious reasons for doing so, such as "purity", was war. Silly me, I've always thought of war as fighting until a region was conquered, not about the culling of human impurities to please your god.

What bit of fiction is this? The tribes DID NOT SLAUGHTER everyone in Canaan. Obviously the Philistines were still around several hundred years after the tribes moved in! And again, you're talking about a period over THREE THOUSAND years ago. Surely you are not going to suggest that the Jews were "feared" because over two thousand years earlier (dating from, say, the Crusades and going back to the time of David) the Davidic Kingdom had been powerful militarily??


And again, and again, ad nauseum... because they were different, because they were reluctant to invite others into their culture yet refused to assimilate into someone elses, and because they didn't separate themselves but integrated into society.

Throughout much of post-Temple Jewish history it was ILLEGAL for Jewish to "invite" others into Jewish culture and practice. And throughout most of that period, they did NOT "integrate" into society; they lived apart, generally by decree. Real integration doesn't come about until the Enlightenment.


You have said that the Jewish people accept conversion... you left out reluctantly because the Jewish people do discourage conversion. Especially back in the "day" that you so fondly dwell in, most Jewish people must have known to be Jewish meant much more than just following a religion, it was a matriarchal line of heredity.

Being a Jew is STILL more than just following a religion; it's being a member of the Jewish PEOPLE. But now as then, Judaism DOES accept converts, if one truly wishes to convert. Judaism does not seek converts, and does in fact discourage conversion, not because others aren't "members of the tribe," but to winnow out the true convert from the dilettante. Unlike Christianity, where conversion is sought to "save"' the soul, Judaism has no such concept. The Talmud says, "The righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come," but basically, Judaism focuses on this world, not the next, and on actions, not on beliefs. What one does is important; why one does it and what one believes about it is far less relevant.


I don't know how you can think a propaganda campaign of hatred can work so well if there wasn't already fear to start with.

I don't know how you can think that fear is necessarily a precursor to hatred.

Re: the "Wandering Jew":


That's a conveniant myth to fit the circumstances and perhaps a perversion of the reasons the Jewish felt themselves to be wanderers.

Jews didn't "feel themselves" to be wanderers; Jews had been forced to leave Eretz Yisrael and were prevented from returning; with the rise of Christianity, the Church passed numerous laws restricting Jewish practices, restricting what professions Jews could old, and where Jews could live. It's a convenient myth created by the Church to justify its treatment of the Jews.


I hate to bring up banking because banking is one of the sources of all those loony conspiracy theories. But, usury was one of the professions the Jewish people were allowed to follow. Money is power, it's a foothold.

Jews were not bankers at the end of the 4th century when St. John Chrysostom said: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men… They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the devil, their religion is a sickness…"


I know more of the history than you give me credit for, I know about the "list" and it is nauseating and sad, but I'm not going to look at your websites, anymore than I'm going to go to Jerry Fallwell to find out about current events.

It's not "my" website, and it's not a JEWISH website. The site belongs to the International Council of Christians and Jews.


And you ignore how convenientaly people ignore religious teaching when it disagrees with their own reality.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

The reality is that Christianity (the Catholic Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, and Martin Luther himself) systematically preached hatred of Jews. And the basis for this hatred was theological: Jews were not simply ignorant of Jesus; Jews actively REJECTED Jesus. Jews, having been the first to whom Jesus preached, had REJECTED Jesus. And that was unforgivable.

Oh, there are all kinds of sociological issues that get intertwined later, but without that religious element — without the constant preaching against the Jews (think of the Passion Play and how that aroused and inflamed hatred) — do you really think people would have gotten so intense in their hatred?

And it really does come down to what I said before: if only Jews would stop being Jews…

Thanks a lot.

[Tulip Tree]

I'm done here, Choro's Mom. You look at an enormous period of history in a large region and take from it what suits your opinions. You have no understanding that in medieval society (to a much greater extent) and prior to the industrial age (to a lesser extent) segregation and outwardly worn marks of social status were a way of life for everyone not just the Jewish people. It's fine to decry the statements of Christian zealots from the past but not when you ignore the quotes of the non-religous, those in actual power, who's chief concern with the Jewish people is that they could be spies or untrustworthly in matters of state.

I see from your other posts that you believe Jewish people who don't believe in Zionism are "religious zealots". Is that why you discount the fact that the Jewish people have seen themselves as wanderers, unable to return home until they have their god's approval? Whatever.

You have a right to your own beliefs, your own prejudices, and I'll leave you to them. It's all very depressing. Suddenly I'm pressuring you to assimilate because I point out the reasons for fear and aggression. "Thanks a lot" Huh. It's ironic when everyone here deals with prejudice to a certain extent, and none of them would think I'm asking them to give up paganism just because they have to deal with prejudice.

Just a reminder, Choro's Mom, all those religions out there with their big charters and statements of belief, really just people who don't believe everything their told. Don't hate the religions: hate greed, hate fear, hate jealousy. If you don't hate the basic emotions behind the prejudice you may succumb to them yourself.