I may be joining a new coven :)

[LadyCelt]

I have made friends with someone this semester that just ended at college. And, a new coven is starting and just beginning to form with her and her boyfriend and a couple others. So far there are i think 4 or 5 people and she said the leader is interested and wants to talk with me first. I am very excited if this comes to happen and it is the right thing!!!!!

Any advice on what to ask or what out for etc?

[Vincent Verthaine]

I have made friends with someone this semester that just ended at college. And, a new coven is starting and just beginning to form with her and her boyfriend and a couple others. So far there are i think 4 or 5 people and she said the leader is interested and wants to talk with me first. I am very excited if this comes to happen and it is the right thing!!!!!

Any advice on what to ask or what out for etc?
Sure.
1-Nothing wrong with joining a group,as long as you don't lose your individuality in the process.Having a need to belong to a group is totally natural.But a coven can turn into a cult if the members aren't careful.
2-Realize that the Coven leader is human,not perfect,and subject to human foibles.You have just as much access to the God/Goddessas anyone else.
3-Never let them pressure you into something you are not entirely comfortable with.No means no.
4-Don't succumb to groupthink.Never be afraid to question the leader or state your opinions.Never be afraid to ask "Why". While "I don't Know" is a legitamite answer,"Because I said so",or"Because the God/dess said so" isn't.Always think for yourself.

[J Santos]

Sure.
3-Never let them pressure you into something you are not entirely comfortable with.No means no.


Bold and double underline! Don't succumb to pressure. Find out exactly how they plan on meeting and worshipping, what kind of rituals they are performing. Its possible they don't entirely know for sure, but meditate long and hard and come up with a few "I won't"'s. This will greatly facilitate your determining if this coven is "right" for you!

[Ptah]

I have made friends with someone this semester that just ended at college. And, a new coven is starting and just beginning to form with her and her boyfriend and a couple others. So far there are i think 4 or 5 people and she said the leader is interested and wants to talk with me first. I am very excited if this comes to happen and it is the right thing!!!!!

Any advice on what to ask or what out for etc?


First of all I am not against coven work. It is an excellent way to learn if everything is kosher.

Ask yourself,"Is the person(s) leading the group actually trained or will they just be making it up as they go along?

Can it be proven, if they claim to be?

Look at the persons life that you will have training you and if you have the information, examine the life of the one who trained them. Then ask yourself, " Is that what I want in my life? " (IE. Don't learn prosperity magics from the poorest people you know)

I forget who posted it but I agree that ask questions if they can't answer or refuse to... leave immediately, they don't have a clue or are hiding something (more than likely ignorance)

Never allow anyone to keep your measure, even for a little while.

You are always allowed to say NO at any time... you always have free will.

[Bix]

What type of experience do the couple have in leading a coven? Have they led one before? Is the couple stable enough in their relationship so as to not bring any baggage into the coven?

Just look into stuff first...but if it fills all that stuff out, go for it.

[Dawa Lhamo]

The Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame
(Version 2.6): http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

I hope this works out for you!

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[MorningDove030202]

I. The Right to Verify Credentials: Seekers shall not be obstructed from contacting persons who can substantiate or disavow claims made by a group or teacher. In the case of elders who were inspired to create a new tradition, the seeker has a right to know the circumstances surrounding the inception of that tradition.

II. The Right to Anonymity: Seekers have the right to keep their involvement in the occult a secret to preserve their personal and professional lives.

III. The Right to Financial Stability: Seekers shall not be required or coerced to take on financial burdens on behalf of a teacher or a group.

IV. The Right to Compensation for Professional goods and services:

Seekers have the Right to be paid for goods produced and/or [for] skilled labor from which they would normally receive an income. Seekers shall not be required or coerced to provide "freebies" or discounts on behalf of a teacher or group.

V. The Right to Sexual Freedom: Seekers shall not be required or coerced to [have] sexual relations with unwanted persons. Nor shall seekers be restricted from sexual relations with consenting adults.

VI. The Right to Physical Well-Being: Seekers shall not be required or coerced to submit to any form of physical injury.

VII. The Right to Abide by the Law: Seekers shall not be required or coerced to commit any illegal act.

VIII. The Right to Consistency: Seekers have the right to expect consistent policies from a teacher or group. Seekers should be formally informed in a timely manner of any policy changes.

IX. The Right to Separation with Impunity: Seekers have the right to discontinue association with any teacher or group without fear of harassment or reprisal.

X. The Right to be at Peace with One's Conscience: Seekers shall not be required or coerced to commit any action contrary to their own sense of ethics and morality.

[Ivy Artemisia]

Congrats, I hope it works out for you. Here are my suggestions:

1. Get to know the whole group, not just the leaders, before dedicating or making any other commitment. You will be working with the other members of the group, and while perfect love and trust are not immediate, it is an eventual goal. After all, I've found that once a coven is energetically established/linked, if one member acts in an unethical manner, it can come back and haunt the coven as a whole.

2. Find out what experience the leaders have, and figure out how much that means to you. Also, what will the responsibility of the leaders entail? Is it just faciliating meetings and rituals or also teaching, etc.

3. Will the coven be conducive to your personal needs? Do you thrive in a hierarchal structured environment, or does the idea of hierarchy make you want to puke? Consider the time commitment- how often will the coven meet? Can you make it to everything? What happens if you miss a meeting or two?

4. Are you willing to put aside how you normally practice to become part of your covens tradition? It might be uncomfortable for you at first if you are used to doing things a certain way and the coven does things a different way. From altars to circles to deities... you might not always see eye to eye. Are you flexible enough to be part of the group?

Just a note about groupthink as quoted by Vincent- don't confuse this with group mind. I teach about the group mind a lot in my group. Group mind is where your energies will link up and your thoughts end up synchonized at times, people getting the same ideas, people saying the same thing at the same time.... your periods align. :) I agree with him though. You need to feel comfortable enough to speak your mind. You need to be able to absolute trust in your HPS.

[Fire's Shadow]

As usual, the pagan community really seems on top of it, so I really don't have to add much. I'll just point out and agree with what I think you should look out for the most.


1-Nothing wrong with joining a group,as long as you don't lose your individuality in the process.Having a need to belong to a group is totally natural.But a coven can turn into a cult if the members aren't careful.
...
3-Never let them pressure you into something you are not entirely comfortable with.No means no.

Good advice there. :thumbsup: This is always a big thing to watch when stepping into new spiritual bounderies. Sometimes, good and faithful people can be really taken advantage of if they are not careful. Vigilance is, after all, the price of freedom.

The Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame
(Version 2.6): http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

This is excellent! It brings up a set way of making sure your coven doesn't become a cult.

Also, many of the rights that morningdove bring up are good points too. Sometimes you need a little more explanation of what to do other then "Harm ye none." I'm not saying the Rede is bad, I'm just a sucker for detail.

Good luck with the coven, and most important of all, be safe! :achug:

[LadyCelt]

Never allow anyone to keep your measure, even for a little while.


what does this mean?

[Paracelsus]

Some covens have a tradition of "taking the measure" of each new initiate - by measuring their height & some other measurements on a piece of knotted rope. This is often returned to the initiate (in my experience, it is often the cord that you will use a belt), but some covens hang on to it. There is the implication that, through the link of "having your measure" they will have the ability to punish you if you leave, or coerce you through the magickal link.

[Ptah]

Thats it... thank you for explaining that for me, Paracelsus.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

The measure can also be used as a stand-in for that covener should they be absent. If, for example, the covener were in extreme isolation in the hospital, the coven could work healing magic over the measure and it would theoretically have the same effect as being worked over the person.
I'd say triple underline the idea that couples shouldn't let emotional baggage get in the way. If the leaders are a couple, be prepared for a spilt, just in case.

[Kalika]

My only advice is to follow your instincts. Make sure that you are comfortable with these people... and if it turns out that you aren't, don't stick around.

:hugz:

Good luck, and keep us posted!

[LadyCelt]

the couple isn't leadingi t,someone else does.

Is themeasure thing likeimage magic then? likeitcouldwork as voodoo dolls and pictures dofor bad things?


I do know that i hsouldn't want to get initiated right away to to learnaboutpeoles' intentions etc. I can trust the girl and her boyfriend, but I don'tknowthe other 2 or 3 peole yet so I gotta get to know them more.

I think its typically a yearand a day to be initiatedinto one, or maybe that is to actually become a witch,not sure yet.

I think i may do my first ever prayer/meditation to/with the goddess aobut it.


thanks for the warnings about measures.

[Fire's Shadow]

Some covens have a tradition of "taking the measure" of each new initiate - by measuring their height & some other measurements on a piece of knotted rope. This is often returned to the initiate (in my experience, it is often the cord that you will use a belt), but some covens hang on to it. There is the implication that, through the link of "having your measure" they will have the ability to punish you if you leave, or coerce you through the magickal link.

Interesting.. I didn't know that either. If they are willing to perform such magic, then I wouldn't want to be with them either.

[BlueMoon13]

Interesting.. I didn't know that either. If they are willing to perform such magic, then I wouldn't want to be with them either.
Absolutely. Or this one either, having to sign your name in blood in a book or on some other document. These days, signing your name on anything at all!

I think anyone considering joining a coven should watch "The Craft" VERY carefully. I know it's only fiction, but if you watch it with the eye of a witch, it teaches an invaluable lesson of not letting yourself get carried away with your own power and not surrendering your power to someone else who has,as I call it,"Gone Nancy". As soon as you see any sign of someone, especially your coven leadership "Going Nancy", as painful as it might be, run like hell in the opposite direction.

Also, save any letters,cards, and emails from coveners in a safe place, and be very careful about what you put in writing to them. You never know when your own words could be used against you, especially when it comes to emails (think of what other people can do to your words with "cut and paste")
It's sad that I have to give you such advice, but I learned the hard way-cover your butt at all times. "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" does'nt mean to throw yourself in front of a moving train. Re-evaluate your coven using the ABCDEF every once in awhile,because things can change subtley, and you might not even notice unless you take time out to do so.

Good luck LC {{{{{hugs}}}

[LadyCelt]

the idea of signing things in blood is scary to me. i oculd be wrong but i've heard from a friend of mine blood magick is the most dangerous kind.


i was just htinking of renting the craft earlier today, but i dont think the store had it.

[BlueMoon13]

the idea of signing things in blood is scary to me. i oculd be wrong but i've heard from a friend of mine blood magick is the most dangerous kind.


i was just htinking of renting the craft earlier today, but i dont think the store had it.
Blood magic is'nt necessarily dangerous, but it is strong and you should'nt (IMO) give anyone else access to your blood for magical works, no matter how much you trust them. Blood IS the life-just ask anyone whose had a transfusion :thumbsup:

[Jenett]

A measure is partly sympathetic magic - the idea that by affecting something connected with a thing, you affect the thing itself. That's the same way you might use a red candle for love, or a picture of someone to send healing to them.

The big two pieces of advice I have are to take your time, and ot be aware of what you're doing.

If you're looking at oaths, promises, or initiation - what does that involve? In my case, my teachers/group leaders did hold my measure for a time (a couple of years: I just got it back after reaching a certain stage of training).

Why was I ok with it? Because I trusted them. And because I recognised the commitment I was making with my oaths in the tradition: the measure is in large part a reflection of those oaths. If I hadn't been willing to let them have the measure, then I shouldn't have taken the initiation, either.

As it happens, though, I love and trust them - and had no problems with them taking it as a result. This is, though, not a decision anyone should make quickly.

It's one really good reason for taking at least a year and a day before initiation, and getting to see the people you're working with in a range of settings (not just classes or rituals, but some social events, when they're in a good mood, a bad mood, whatever.)

It's also really important that you trust the people taking it to know how to handle it appropriately. If you're not sure, for any reason, wait on any commitments or formal promises or oaths.

[alwaysfallingup]

I think that before joining a coven, that you should do a "trial run." Ask if the group could do an open ritual together, just to see how your energies mesh, and if you are comfortable with the way you do ritual.

Make sure that you plan things together as a group, because even if one person acts as high priest/ess, a coven is about working together and facilitating group experience.

Make sure that you get to know everyone in the group and that they are people you feel that you can work with before committing to the group. The bonds in a coven are strong, and you want to make sure that you like and can work with these people BEFORE you bond to them.

Make sure that the group does it's groundwork first. Have a business meeting before your bonding ritual (if you do one...I'd recommend it if this is a group you get to know and love), and decide on your ground rules. What is the attendance policy (for instance, in my coven, full moons are mandatory unless in case of extreme emergency, but new moons are open and optional)? What type of workings will you do together (will you meet for spellwork? Or full moon rituals? Or holidays?)? Will you make decisions by consensus? How will you work out disagreements? Will there be formal positions (archivist, HP, etc) or will you take turns with roles and facilitation? What tradition or pantheon or path will your group work with (it's okay to say "all of them" or "none of them", as long as every member is comfortable with this...but you need to work it out ahead of time). How much interaction outside of circle does everyone want (is this group to be a family, so that I can call you if I have an emergency or crisis? Or are we a loosely knit group of like-minded people that work magick together?)? How will we plan and facilitate group activity? Will we do community work?

Write down all your group's decisions, and make sure everyone has a chance to voice their concerns, desires, wishes, and needs. Make sure everyone makes clear what their expectations for the group is, and why they want to be a part of the group. The time you spend in this meeting will be well worth it, and you will all have a cohesive idea of what your group is and where it's going that will help you make decisions in the future.

Above all, follow your heart and what it tells you about the people around you and how they interact with you. Oh, and have fun!

~Alisha~

[LadyCelt]

hopefully i'm able to come to a yule thing i'm invited to wednesday, i figure that will help me a bit to decide on things.